148: Leftie Lawyers and Rightwing Roughnecks

Robert Jenrick and Richard Hermer are the two opposite ends of British Politics: Helen and Adam discuss the New Angry Right, Butch Keir and the Leftie Lawyers. Plus a chat with Ian Hislop and Nick Newman about the late, great Barry Fantoni - so, farewell then…

Episode Transcript

Maisie (00:00):
Page 94, the Private Eye Podcast

Andy (00:03):
Hello and welcome to another episode of Page 94.
My name is Andrew Hunter Murray, andI'm here in the Private Eye office
with Helen Lewis and Adam McQueen.
Later on we're gonna be speaking to IanHislop and Nick Newman for a special
tribute, to Barry Fantoni; long one ofthe key creative voices at the magazine
who very sadly died not so long ago.
And we're gonna be talking abouthis life and his contribution

(00:24):
to the eye over the years.
It's a really interesting chat.
But first, for this bit of the podcast,we are gonna be talking about two
men in British public life, who Iwould say might be the opposite.
I think they might be the matterand anti-matter of British politics.
We're gonna start
with one and then move on to the other.
See if you can guess whothe second one is from the
first.

Helen (00:42):
Okay.
So the.
Who, is the literalopposite of Robert Jenrick
Is a

Andy (00:46):
Exactly.

Helen (00:46):
That will hover over the listener's ear for some time.

Andy (00:49):
So
Robert Jenrick is the ShadowJustice Secretary and-
it's Batman.
It seems that you get quite a lotof time on your hands when you're
the Shadow Justice secretary becausehe's been spending his copious
free time going down the tube.
And, filming, free videocontent for all of us.
Very grateful for that of him.

(01:09):
Accosting fair dodgers.
People who've shoved their way throughthe barriers and he then catches up with
'em and says, excuse me, mate, and says,are you sure you should be doing that?
And it's a bit naughty, isn't it?
And, in slightly lessfriendly tone than that.
Helen, what's he doing?

Helen (01:23):
he is bolstering the media presence of Robert Jenrick.
I that's one he's advertisinghimself as an should.
What's that phrase from Boris Johnson?
Should the ball come free from theback of the scrum for Tory leader?
that he could also, obviously he, lasttime around he, he lost Kemi Badenoch.

Andy (01:39):
have a go hero.

Helen (01:40):
He is
a have a go hero, but he is alsodoing something that you can see.
Stan we're trying to do.
on my other podcast, sorry to referencemy other relationship, I talked about
Stan's increasingly butch tweets.
So Keir Starmer has started doingthese tweets that are like, you think
you are above the law, you are not.
We're coming for you.
I'm k starer.

(02:01):
And I think there is a general feelingthat, particularly with the public
realm in a bit of a shabby state.
People have a certain level of angerabout low level social disorder and that
politicians can usefully seize upon this.
Adam, you're old enough toremember, you remember I suppose?

Adam (02:17):
I remember, I suppose I was thinking back even further than that.
I was thinking Jack Straw andthe squeegee merchants of death.
Do you remember that?
them?
No, This
is very,
early on new labor.
They decided they were gonna crack downexactly on that, on anti antisocial
behavior at a very sort of low level.
So people used to come up to your,your windscreen when you were stopped
at the traffic lights and wash yourwindscreen, whether you liked it or
not, and then demand money from you.
There was a lot of that Tony Blairtalking about aggressive beggars.

Helen (02:39):
To be fair to Jack Straw, you don't actually see a lot of squeegee
merchants from death these days.
So that's one that worked.

Adam (02:44):
They were big on this thing, particularly when Jack Straw, who was
his first home secretary, but it wasvery much cracking down on that kind of.
Low level sort of street, anti-socialistthings that didn't quite verge
onto crime, but made people feela bit, both scared and outraged.
that's the thing with generic, isn't it?
It's one of these cases of like, whyare these people getting away with
it when the rest of us are all lawabiding and paying for our tickets?

Helen (03:06):
It's got a lot of interesting overtones to it.
'cause the other thing it reminds me ofis, broken windows, which is Rudy Giuliani
in nineties New York saying essentiallyif you just, if things look crap at
the low level, then it just spreadsupwards and people do law breaking.
Funny since Rudy Giuliani in my last.
Member of him was him being servedwith a writ somewhere for some dodgy
thing that he had been involved with.
But anyway, and then the pushback toit from liberals was, this is targeting

(03:29):
young, black and brown men, picking peopleup for these small offenses and exactly
as you would expect, this has been thepushback to Robert Jenrick stunt was
saying, you claimed twice for the samejourney on your expenses when you went
on the train and in the, in your car,Robert Jenrick, or you pushed through
Richard Desmond's, development plans.
And that cost us all a lot of money.

Andy (03:48):
cost us 40 million quid, which is
twice what TFL had to spendfighting fair evasion last year.
Just to put the numbers on it,

Helen (03:54):
possibly TFL could stand to spend a bit more fighting.
Fair.
evasion?
On the evidence of Robert Gricksvideo, to be fair, because the staff
seem to have had the dictat -whichlots of staff in shops, had in San
Francisco, notoriously- don't interfere.
don't put your lives in danger.
Leave this to the police to deal

Andy (04:08):
with.
Yeah, don't get stabbed.
You're not combat trained.
It is
not, it's not an insane thing to

Helen (04:12):
say.
say.
it's not an insane thing
to say, but
it's the same, it's the sameimpulse that annoys people.
This is why I, mentioned San Francisco'cause this has been a repeated
drumbeat of American politicalconversations that liberal cities
are horrible... no one wants touse public transport, their shops.
And when I went to San Francisco inMarch, sure enough, all the stuff in the
pharmacy is locked behind glass, right?
You have to come andsomeone unlocks it for you.

(04:33):
But there is this general sensethat people are getting away
with it, getting away with it.

Adam (04:36):
It is definitely significant that he picked London for this, isn't it?
he's not going after peoplespeeding in, leafy rural lanes.

Andy (04:44):
it's about that kind of

Adam (04:45):
metropolitan view of London and particularly

Andy (04:48):
London

Adam (04:48):
being this lawless terrible

Andy (04:50):
That is true.
Although he is going through the crimesquite quickly at the moment, he may
find himself reporting on fly tippingin Bedfordshire before the year is out.
Just you gotta keep the content fresh

Helen (04:59):
I welcome that.

Andy (05:00):
that.

Adam (05:02):
There was a video, was it the Torries or Reform that put out the
video, before the last election saying,this, crime on the London undergrad.
And actually it was very obviousfrom the pictures, it was
actually the New York subway.

Andy (05:12):
Yeah.
Clues
were like really big trains that you could
stand up properly

Adam (05:15):
Yeah.
But there is,
that's very much a sort of narrativethat will appeal to the sort of
people who might potentially bevoting for Robin Jenrick in a
leadership contest soon, I would

Helen (05:21):
Mm-hmm.

Andy (05:22):
I feel the familiar irritation of, if I see someone fair dodging,
I get really annoyed about it.
Gem Rick's previousvideos, letter dropping.
I get really annoyed about that.
Theft of trade tools from Vans.
I haven't experienced thatmyself, but I can imagine it's
absolutely infuriating it.
To what extent is this?
Real or perceived?
Sadik Kane's response when he was askedabout Fair dodging on the tube was that,

(05:46):
in the last year for which we have stats,3.4% of journeys were not paid for,
but the year before that it was 3.8,so it's moving in the right direction.
That does feel like quite a bloodless.
Way of responding.
But then if the alternativeis butch Keir, isn't it then
just a competition of who can
be, most angry and what, doesthat add to the debate really?

Helen (06:06):
Robert Jenrick has had a, a quite a butch makeover, right?
And he was, no, but he has, he'sgotten now, the way that George
Osborne's hair moved forwards insteadof having swept back School Prefe.
Look, he had the sweat for the Caesar.
Heck, I just, I believethey called it at the time.
Robert Jenrick has had something similar.
He's also, we know used, wavy.
He's also in a check shape.
In fact, actually Adam, you'vecome to this podcast recording

(06:28):
dressed as Robert Jenrick.

Adam (06:29):
Can I just say I had this look First, Jenrick

Andy (06:32):
me,

Adam (06:32):
anything.
I am the butch icon,
the Robert Jenrick is modeling
himself on.

Andy (06:36):
So
if Osborne is, Caesar is generally oneof the kind of like degraded, angrier,
later emperors, like a Tiberius or,

Helen (06:42):
sort.
Yeah.
you want for libel reasons,which is clarify, probably
not Tiberius or maybe just to

Adam (06:48):
Just

Helen (06:49):
near Yeah.
Midrange, emperor.
But think you're exactly rightto pick it up about, it's
there, it taps into a fear of.
Urban spaces as being places thathave a lot of minorities in them,
a lot of poor people in themwhere people are thrown together.
And I think people who don't live inthem, I talk to people who live in other
bits of the country and they, thinkLondon's a bit loud and overwhelming and

Adam (07:09):
well, I'm thinking also of Nigel Farra many years ago saying about,
he'd been on the London Undergroundand he'd near a single person speaking
English and that, that, had that sortof same cut through on it, didn't it?
with people who fear

Helen (07:18):
certain
And London demographics are very differentto some other bits of the country.
They just looks very, different.
And it's, it is also nota coincidence, I think.
So he filmed that in Stratford,which is a very heavily Asian part of
London.
so he, he wasn't filming it inMuswell Hill, where I imagine you
probably also could find one or twopeople shoving through the gates.

Andy (07:40):
is there a synthesis between these two positions?
can we agree that crime is bad?

Helen (07:44):
Yes.
Okay.
I'm against it broadly and I wouldhappily, as I've said before in
this podcast, people listeningto stuff without headphones in
on public transport should be

Adam (07:51):
I
was gonna say, is this yet anothercase where Ed Davian is, lib
Dems are not getting the, thecredit they deserve for this?
'cause a, couple of months ago, theycame out with that as, a lib dem policy.
That, that, it turned out it wasthe law anyway, that you're not
allowed to listen to music without

Andy (08:04):
headphones
or it was a sort ofnuisance law or something.

Adam (08:07):
But it was one of those things where lots of sort of newspaper columnists
and said, this is terribly illiberalfor the lib dems, and lots of, lots of
readers and voters went, yes, brilliant.
Please, can we take these people's phonesaway and possibly give them the death

Andy (08:17):
as well?
Is Robert Emmerich just angry Ed Davey?
Is that what

Helen (08:21):
we've
Oh, he, you, are right.
He is like the dark side David.
His mal, his malevolent aspect.
Yes.
Like a sort of Hindu God

Andy (08:29):
he'll bungee jump, but at the bottom of the axis he'll cut some benefits just
with a pair of scissors he is got in them.

Helen (08:34):
very notoriously he did answer, if you remember, for a mural
and a children's refugee center.
To be punted over in case anyof the children experienced joy

Andy (08:41):
That's very anti

Helen (08:41):
Vy, which is
like the exactly mirror worldEd Davy, but you are right.
He's onto something.
In the same way that the small boatsis such an evocative issue, even when
at the upper bounds we're talkingabout 50,000 people versus, the legal
migration to this country or other rootsover the years has, really knocked up.
But it's a visible symbol and itannoys people 'cause they can visibly

(09:01):
see people breaking the rules.

Adam (09:03):
It reminds me as well, actually, of going even further
back to the sort of, late Thatcheryears when single mothers who
were, having
babies just so they could geta council house, became a, and
it's got that same nature of it.
it's unjust,

Andy (09:15):
There have been two suggestions posed, in response to this latest
wave of stuff about fair dodging.
the non-ST stupid one is alittle bit from the Swiss model
where you get increasing fines.
if you'll find the first time, ifyou do it again, you get fined more.
And the fines, are notreally very lenient.
they're, quite strictly observed.
And also if they go unpaid, theybecome a major headache for you.

(09:37):
So various administrative doorsclosed, like if you're applying for, a
citizenship or a lease or like a mobilephone, you, those applications grind
to a halt because the system says no.
You need to go and pay this fine.
You are frowning, Adam,

Adam (09:49):
think?
No, I'm
just thinking if we're going for theSwiss Swiss approach on law and order,
this is a country where famouslycertain cantons you are banned as
a male from urinating standing upafter about eight o'clock at night.
'cause it makes too much noise for the

Andy (09:59):
sensible policies

Helen (10:01):
I bet.

Andy (10:01):
Switzerland.

Helen (10:02):
I bet that would poll really.
remember when they're in the COVIDpandemic, when they poll people
about whether or not they wanteda permanent curfew at 9:00 PM
and about a fifth of

Andy (10:09):
Yes,

Helen (10:10):
Yes.

Andy (10:10):
So quite a controlling, potentially reasonable solution there.
The other, I read in the Spectator,why can't we have two police officers
stationed by the barriers at everymajor tube station in the Capitol?

Helen (10:21):
because there's that would involve an enormous amount of policing manpower.
They could be,

Andy (10:26):
I think 'cause numbers.
Yeah, because numbers oftotal police officers,

Helen (10:29):
that is very, that is a new evolution of why can't we just have
more bobbies on the beat though?
So

Andy (10:32):
credit
came up
with that.
Okay, let's come on to the, antigen.
Richard Hermer.
Lord Richard Hermer?

Adam (10:40):
As of last July.

Andy (10:41):
in the House of Lords.
Yeah.

Helen (10:43):
Hermer.

Andy (10:45):
Oh, there we go.

Adam (10:45):
from patents

Helen (10:46):
Because-

Andy (10:46):
This is Ms Debretts has popped in.
So Richard Hermer is the Attorney General.
He's the government chief lawyer.
he's... Keir, big lawyers.
Chief lawyer,
so he's like this sort of Uber lawyer.
Uber is an appropriate word to useactually in this conversation because he's
recently been in the news because, He madesome comments comparing, a pick and mix

(11:10):
approach to international law and yourinternational legal obligations to various
things that were going on in Germany inthe 1930s where various of their jurists
were saying, Georgetown, Ubers, and, canpick a mix like power is more important
than observing technical legal niceties.
This has led to an enormous pushbackagainst him, from among others.
Robert Jenrick, j himself,

(11:32):
who's no doubt outside the royal courtsof justice with his team, filming a
little GoPro video or whatever he does.

Adam (11:37):
can I just correct you on 1.0?
Yeah.
Because it wasn't variouspeople in Germany in 1930s.
It was one specific person.
This is a speech to the RoyalUnited Services Institute last week.
the claim that international law isfine as far as it goes, but can be
put aside when conditions change, is aclaim that was made in the early 1930s
by realist juries in Germany, mostnotably Carl Schmidt, whose central

(11:58):
thesis was in essence the aim thatstate power is all that counts, not law.
So it's
one
very
specific
Nazi, which is somehow transmutedinto saying everyone who

Helen (12:06):
disagrees
with him is
a
Nazi.
I'm just gonna go out thereand say that you probably could
have picked other examples.
I bet there are other peoplewho, without going, do you know
what happened in Germany in 1933?
I feel like he probably knowswhat he was doing with that

Adam (12:20):
one.
he probably does,
but

Helen (12:22):
I

Adam (12:22):
you heard of Carl Smith?

Helen (12:24):
No,
looked

Adam (12:24):
him up since Charming fellow German academic in the 1920s and thirties.
most famously he justified the nightof the long knives when Hitler purged
all of his, all, lots of, his political
rivals.
Just
had them murdered as the highestform of administrative justice.
yeah, yes, it's quite, eventhat in itself is quite an

Helen (12:42):
an, where was he on, tube ADEs?

Adam (12:45):
Oh, I
don't think

Andy (12:46):
he
was
keen.
He really wasn't.

Adam (12:47):
wasn't.

Helen (12:47):
Okay.

Andy (12:49):
so this gets to a bit of a debate that's been going on about international
law and in fact domestic law.
Just the extent to which government shouldbe keeping to the letter of the law.
as well as being against crime, Kier
is
ProLaw.

Adam (13:02):
Yes.

Andy (13:02):
are
not
controversial things, butfor some reason, they've,
for
some reason, being in favor ofgovernments, of preserving law has become
a bit of a wooly woke leftish thing to
say,

Adam (13:12):
in this
country it's specificallyabout the European Court of
Human Rights in Strasburg.
And the entire HumanRights Act that, overseas,
and that's
become the bug bell.
we've left the eu and since thenit's taken the place of those
unelected, eurocrats in Brussels.
the E-H-E-H-C-R is the next thingin everyone's targets, including.
whispering Bob Jenrick, Kenny
She's a bit
vague on it.

(13:33):
She hasn't actually said we woulddefinitely leave yet, has she?
Kenny

Helen (13:35):
Kami Ock, sorry.
Just couldn't keep it in any longer.
I

Adam (13:39):
Big
but
it's certainly something
that's being pushed by.
a lot of the Tory press, the telegraphand the male are very, big on this.
They are also the oneswho are most outraged, at
Herma and being comparedin themselves to Nazis.
interestingly, they're, not.
opposed to using the EHCR inStrasburg when it suits them.
So the Telegraph, as recently as last,a couple of months ago, was celebrating

(14:00):
victory over a Philip Green, XBHSboss on this very specific point
in Strasburg where the court said.
That actually know parliament shouldhave privilege over the judiciary
and it was fine for, Philip Greento be named as the, holder of an
injunction against the telegraph overhis behavior when he was boss of BHS.
The
male also
had a case in front of the HCRon Strasburg last November.

(14:21):
over being obliged to pay success feesfor people who sued them for libel.
and these are extra feesthat are added on by lawyers.
and they managed todefeat that one as well.
So they're, not behind the scenes.
they, they do have a bit more time for theEHDR than they do on their front pages,

Andy (14:35):
but when it's expedient rather than the typical use cases
that the public imagined the EHCRbeing for, because I think of it as
being much more about whether it'smigration or sort of international
cases with big ramifications for.
British politics in terms of whogets to be here, which seems to
be the main focus for a lot of

Adam (14:52):
people.
That's
their main thing that it's becomesupposedly a barrier to, us being
able to boot out people thatwe don't want in the country.
And it's part of that whole
big fervent immigration.
I would have to say actuallythough, the other thing with the
Mail and the Telegraph is they'renot terribly keen on British court
when they go against 'em either.
you're not talking aboutdisinterested observers here.
If you remember from a fewyears ago that Mail headline,
enemies of
the people.

(15:12):
That was
three judges at the high court who found,found against, some particular Brexit
legislation, that at the time peoplewere saying this is quite reminiscent
of a certain time in thehistory of a certain country.

Helen (15:25):
No one's ever keen on courts when they go against them.
Are they, that is one of the liketruths of life, like death and taxes.
I was just thinking about the,Supreme Court ruling on gender.
You had a load of people whosaid how wonderful it was that
the Supreme Court ruled, on.
Prorogation on Brexit and you howwe should never question them, how
illiberal it was to question them.
Suddenly update regarding Supreme Courtthink they've got this one terribly wrong.
Is it because one of the judges lives nearJK Rowling in Edinburgh was genuinely a

(15:49):
meme?
And
I think that is the problem is thatthere are very, because they are wielding
authority, whenever they wield authority,you don't like, they're a really big
site for people to have a grumble.

Andy (15:59):
is this part of the reason why there, there's an attempt to
depersonalize judges, the wigs,the, kind of costume, this is not
the person you're dealing with.
It's, the law as embodied by

Helen (16:08):
the judge.
there's more even than that.
Adam, you'll know this better than me, butthere's been a couple of cases recently
where they've applied to not revealthe judge who was presiding over them.
Because they're so worried aboutjudges getting, on things like
terror cases or high profile casesthat attract conspiracy theories.
it's, I think there, there are realconcerns about judges, which have been.
Fought off so far, I have to say.

(16:29):
But the principle of an open judiciaryis something that actually lots of
people feel quite nervous about at themoment because of the very personalized
threats of being made against

Adam (16:36):
people.
and they have been for years and years.
I've, I remember speaking to, familiesof, of judges in the family court, who
were being targeted
by fathers for justice, turning upin their front gardens and things.
it's not a. It's not a,non-existent threat, but
also you have
absolutely got to have theprinciple of open justice.
And for the most part, the judicialsystem are very good at, holding
onto this and saying that courtsdo need to be open in that way.

Andy (17:00):
Adam, can I say one more thing from Herman's speech and then we'll
get into the kind of The principlesand why it matters, as we've already
started doing, I just found this linevery interesting from what he said.
He, was talking about what happensif the framework of international law
fails, and he said it's very obviousthat Russia and other maligned state
actors see the undermining of the legalbased framework as a core objective.

(17:21):
Putin does not simply apply a Schmidt.
Carl Schmidt, Ian approached to therule of law within the boundaries
of Russia and its proxies.
He recognizes the huge strategic advantagethat would flow in undermining the
post 1945 international law framework.
So that puts a slightly different spin onwhat he's saying because I think people
have interpreted what he's saying as well.
Britain has to scrupulously observeall international law, even when

(17:44):
it's to our huge disadvantage.
Whereas what he might have beensaying is actually we should preserve
the, concept of international law.
And it's, it is currentlyunder attack from all sorts of
directions at the moment, includingsurprising places like the US

Adam (17:58):
Yeah, it is.
and he said, I do notfor one moment question.
The good faith, let alone patriotism ofthe, pseudo realists is what he calls
these people, but their arguments areever adapted to provide sucker to Putin.

Andy (18:10):
I know he is.
He can't stop making friends, can he?
and, we should say who he is as well.
before anything else.
he's, he was the first attorney generalin a century who wasn't an MP first.
That's really unusual.
He comes from the samechambers that Kier established.
Was it Dowty Street?

Adam (18:25):
Yeah.
he arrived in the job in a, slightlydodgy political way because, right up
until the election, the Shadow AttorneyGeneral had been, Emily Thornbury,
who well known figure for Islington.
South, I think, isn't it?
yeah, But knocking around in, laborpolitics for ages, a qualified lawyer
as you have to be in order to takeone of these jobs in the government.
and then at the very last minute, almosteveryone went into the brief that they'd

(18:47):
been shadowing, and she didn't, insteadLord Hermann was brought in, who, as
you say, is an old colleague of Kiers
and I think.
exactly.
And I don't think, I don't think
that's done in many
favors amongst certain
labor and peace, certainly judgingby the, those who've been happy to
line up, give quotes anonymouslyon, on this latest story, did
you see
in the Times on Saturday, one ofhis ministerial colleagues was

(19:10):
quoted as saying, once a mentalist,always a mentalist, which is okay,

Andy (19:15):
it,

Helen (19:16):
They don't

Andy (19:16):
mean

Helen (19:16):
a sort of mind read way,

Adam (19:18):
I

Andy (19:18):
don't
think
Not the Darren Brown.
so.
they're referring to Herma there,

Adam (19:22):
They're referring to Herma.

Andy (19:24):
So, his
he's represented all sorts of people.
the mother of one of the Isis Beatles,

Adam (19:29):
Yep.

Helen (19:31):
Was he

Andy (19:31):
Shaima,

Adam (19:31):
he, represented her, but he weighed
in
with an opinion on it, didn't he?
Yeah.

Helen (19:34):
as in the, woman who tried to go to Syria to join up.

Andy (19:37):
Yes,
exactly.
You not

Helen (19:38):
in something related to Jerry

Adam (19:40):
He was not
the latest case where Jerry Adams hasjust had a, libel victory over the BBC,
and had his reputation restored as thefine, upstanding, lovely man that he is.
but a past one of that one, thisis always a bit of an easy one.
It's shooting fish in a barrel, isn't it?
I shouldn't say that.
in conjunction with Jerry
Adams.
I shouldn't say shooting, should I?

Andy (19:57):
they don't have any knees, no.

Adam (20:03):
This is
always something
you
can do
with
lawyers, isn't it?
Because they take cases onthe taxi rank principles.
So you can go through and find, asomething ti or even not just make it up.
given, those online rumors that were,that were going around about, ki
Star's personal involvement somewherein the, axle Ru Kabana case of the
representing him or representing his dad,

(20:23):
which turned out to be complete
nonsense south.
the South Port Kelly.

Andy (20:25):
Yeah.
Yes.
And that rumor really went.
nuts on various social media

Adam (20:30):
because people like to believe bad things about lawyers.
a way it, comes into the stuff wewere talking about with Jenrick,
and that's specifically London.
specifically North London.
The case is one of the shorthandsthat gets used it's sort of general
purpose, term of abuse that canbe, put in lots of directions.
I always like Islington.
that's my favorite one.
'cause famous, past residents is courseinclude Boris Johnson and Paul Daker.
Those, those well known lefties.

(20:51):
Actually speaking of BorisJohnson, it was an attack line.
He used quite a successfulone on Ki Stama.
Was that, oh, he's just a lawyer.
He doesn't, he's a human rights lawyer.
He doesn't really believe in anythingelse, which again, is quite a turnaround.
'cause I remember you go back20 years, who was the great hunk
and fantasy man of the will?
It was Mark Darcy from Bridget Jones,who was a human rights lawyer, wasn't he?
We know we used to quitelike this, as an idea.

Helen (21:11):
I Still do.
Sorry, just give just gimme a moment.
I think this is comes back to why Stanis doing all the like aggressively,
sort it out you slag tweets because
he
knows that this is an attack line that hasgot a huge potential to work against him.
'cause I, it's not justlawyers, is it Adam?
It's, specifically if you'rea human rights lawyer.
By definition, the people who need ahuman rights lawyer tend to be wrong,

(21:32):
ands in some way, who nonethelessdeserve not to be like tortured or,
subjected to capital punishment in aforeign country or whatever it might

Andy (21:39):
be.
Yeah.
And if you look at Hermann's historyis not, I'm sure he's very capable
of doing the job in a completelydisinterested fashion, but if he's,
for example, said Donald Trump wasthe most brazen liar ever in 2020.
He's argued there's a moralargument for reparations to
Caribbean Nations over slavery.
It's not impossible to divine.
Broadly where he comes from in political

(21:59):
terms.
He's

Adam (22:00):
gonna be a friend of the Daily Mail, is
he?

Andy (22:02):
So does this matter at all?

Adam (22:05):
politically obviously, it's got some significance.
I think.
I think the really interesting thingabout this is, the Nazi comparison.
it was looking into Godwin'sLaw, which everyone knows

Andy (22:14):
can you say what it is?
Just for any listeners who

Adam (22:16):
Goldman's law is, specific to internet arguments,

Helen (22:18):
It's, the longer the internet argument goes on, the chance the
probability of someone being comparedto a Nazi reaches, a hundred percent

Adam (22:26):
and the bit that got appended to it afterwards, was that the first person to
say Nazi has lost the argument, isn't it?
But there does have to be a point, I'mlooking, not particularly at this country,
but I'm looking across the ponds to where,we've got an American president who is
ruling largely by executive order, whois really in terms of personal vendettas,
going after the legal system, specificlawyers, universities, and the free press.

(22:48):
At some point you do need to be ableto say, easy little bit Nazi, isn't it?
Without, just being shouted down andsomeone told that's the worst thing
you can possibly say in the world.
Mike Godwin has said this himself.
He did say in 2023, yes, it isokay to compare Trump to Hitler.
Just

Helen (23:03):
to
clarify
it.

Adam (23:04):
laughter,

Helen (23:05):
I, don't think it's helpful actually, because I think everybody
ends up having an argument matter howoffended they are, whereas if you just
say he's an authoritarian, this is Trumpthat's completely logical and defensible.
It's just, I, one of those thingswhere every people end up arguing
about the word and not the actionsand, I just think, I find it completely
derailing actions.

Adam (23:21):
would say that because you're a Nazi.

Helen (23:24):
Ah, yes, of course.
I'd forgotten.

Andy (23:25):
Do the actions in question include various straight arm
salutes, made from stages at rallies?
Is are those inappropriate for Nazi

Helen (23:34):
Do you know what though?
Senator Cory Booker, who is aDemocrat, did something similar
where he did one of those stretchingout to the, crowd salutes.
And of course, all the onlinewriter are going, oh, you're
not calling him a Nazi, are you?
You're not calling him a Nazi.
And you say, of course, the thing is ElonMusk, there was a bit of a background,
wasn't there to you doing this?
Like saying lots of things,like I think I should have many
babies and repopulate the world,

(23:55):
Anyway.
you saying

Andy (23:56):
context matters?

Helen (23:57):
am

Adam (23:57):
saying it's very

Helen (23:59):
to say that on the

Andy (23:59):
internet,

Helen (23:59):
but I'm nonetheless insisting on it.

Adam (24:01):
I,
and I'll clarify my view.
Obviously it's not helpful to just goaround calling everyone Nazis, but if
we're at a point where we can't learnfrom specific actions and things that
happened in history without it becoming afrankly confected nonsensical thing about,
oh, he
thinks
everyone's a Nazi and nowhe's got to resign, then

Andy (24:18):
I think this is great.
I think an update to the lawchanging the law, if only there
was someone who was qualified to

Adam (24:23):
all that.

Andy (24:24):
Oh,

Helen (24:24):
but I think that's really interesting that you are talking
about the fact there's one setof people arguing about the law
at the kind of top end, right?
In its most abstract internationalform, versus how people feel about the
law at the bottom end, which is peoplecommitting minor petty misdemeanors that
they can see in their everyday life.
They're almost, they just, even thoughthey're species of the same thing,
they feel so completely different.
And politically the salience of themis one's right code and one's left

(24:48):
coded.

Andy (24:49):
Are we saying that maybe Richard Hermer should get down to Stratford
two barriers and start filming

Helen (24:55):
And Robert Jenrick should take his case to the ICJ.

Andy (24:59):
Yeah,

Helen (25:00):
I
want some sort of job swap.
Could be

Andy (25:02):
what, This
is a Channel four format.
It
is.
This is wife
swap,
but for the next generation.

Helen (25:06):
Yeah.
Big
justice,
small justice.
Oh,

Andy (25:09):
Oh,
that's
it.
Get
him on
the
phone.
Good
cop.
Bad
cop.

Helen (25:11):
Okay, great.
I'll take two.

Andy (25:16):
Now what do EJ thp the eyes resident poet Glenda Slag,
needs an FC all have in common.
They were all the brainchild of oneman, Barry Fantoni, who very sadly
passed away a couple of weeks ago.
You may have seen in the latestedition of the magazine, EJ
Thp himself writing a tribute.
which began so farewell then to the manwho came up with the words so farewell.

(25:37):
Then Barry Fantoni, was a key partof private eye for 47 years from
1963 all the way up until 2010.
He had an extraordinarytenure at the magazine.
I. Which started with cartoons.
It moved on through various other bitsof art all the way into the joke writing
team, and he was a really significantfigure in the life of private eye.

(25:57):
He was a very different kind of person.
There was a reputation in theearly days That the eye was full
of stuffy ex public school boys.
Barry was Jewish, Italian fromLondon, and he had joined art
school at the age of about 14.
So he brought a verydifferent energy with him.
In fact, as he put it, one ofhis first jobs at the magazine
was literally painting the door.
Over to Ian Hislop and Nick Newmanto talk about that and about all the

(26:20):
other aspects of Barry's long andglorious career at the I Here's Ian.

Ian (26:24):
I think Barry was quite keen, , to give the impression that there was
this group of public school boyssitting in Soho without a clue about
what was going on in the real world.
And Barry came through the door andstarted off painting the door practically,
and then, designing the mag and then doingthe cartoons and then writing it all, and
eventually just taking it over completely.

(26:45):
which, it's not, entirely untune.
But that was his myth.

Andy (26:51):
Okay.
think,

Nick (26:54):
I, my understanding was that he was brought to the attention
of the eye by this painting.
He did.
Which, was it exhibitedat the Royal Academy?
the one of, PrincePhilip in his underpants.
Okay.
which was a wonderful piece of pop art.
he was straight outta Campbell Schoolof Art and, Painting was, like a sort

(27:16):
of thing that you'd find comic of howyou dress up Prince Philip in different
outfits and naval uniform.
a sort of, Duke's uniform.

Ian (27:25):
Yeah.
Colonel of the Bombardier Guard.

Nick (27:28):
ba basically it's him in his underpants, which is just
very
funny.

Ian (27:31):
and the Daily Express just went nuts.

Andy (27:34):
Yeah.
Quite controversial, I would've thought.
even these days.
Yeah.
I know we've seen Prince Harry playingstrip billiards in Las Vegas, but

Ian (27:41):
I think the Express put it on the front page and said, Britain is

Andy (27:45):
finished.

Ian (27:46):
and
this is proof.
And I think, the then, fledglingeditors of private, I thought.
We better get a
bit of
this.

Nick (27:54):
Cause in the early days, Willie rushed and drew all the cartoons and
Barry came in, about the same timeas Gerald Scarf and, Ralph Steadman.
And he drew not reallysatirical cartoons at all.
they were just gag cartoons.
And really about the sixties.
it was hippies, they were veryunusual style because, he was a

(28:17):
consummate artist and his portraitshow and stuff was just amazing.
but the cartoons themselves werelike, they were drawn by a child,
which was a part of their charm.

Ian (28:27):
Yes.
And Barry, who, was not a public schoolboy and hadn't, been to Oxford with,
the other founders, or Cambridge,
occasionally those be, broughtsomething completely different.
I think Richard and Christopher Bookerwere rather appalled by the sixties,
even though

Nick (28:44):
they
were

Ian (28:45):
very much part of the counterculture and Barry loved it
all, and men in flares with ridiculoushair going, this book's too much

Nick (28:53):
man.

Ian (28:56):
cartoons of, little maps saying you are nowhere.
He was the sixties

Andy (29:03):
didn't, he have a, TV show which later became the title of his
memoir, which is the most sixtiestitle of anything ever anywhere,
which is a whole scene going.
Yeah.
it's, and he, it's a parity.
He was the voice of youth.

Nick (29:17):
The Whole Scene Going the BBC's attempt to, have a pop program,
to appeal to young people, and itwas an answer to ready, steady Go.
And Barry appeared in thepilot, which wasn't very good.
and he appeared as a guest to talk aboutpop art and Ned Shean saw it and said.

(29:38):
Barry fan is the face of the 1960s.
That's,
that
was
his quote

Ian (29:42):
Ned Shean was the producer of, that was the week that was, okay.
So it was a small group ofpeople saying, what is the

Andy (29:48):
sixties?

Ian (29:50):
oh, it must be him,

Andy (29:51):
was, see him,

Nick (29:52):
And Barry had Long hair and a time when you look at the, early
photographs of people at Private Eyeand there's Richard wearing a tie.
Ian into
wearing a
tie as

Andy (30:02):
well.

Nick (30:03):
Things
haven't
changed much, but Barry was, he wasan outsider and he came in with a very
different perspective and he was doingjokes about football popular culture.
the whole world of Spooky Toes, who wasa sort of parody of, John Lennon and
Paul McCartney, was Barry and Spooky Toeswas, had this band called The Turds and

(30:26):
they were
the Beatles
or
the
Rolling Stones, but it summedup sixties pop culture.

Ian (30:32):
but.
when you got to know him, you realizedhe actually was there and he, was a
friend of Paul McCartney's the Kinks.
And you just thought,this is very bizarre.
Yes.

Nick (30:42):
He advised Paul McCartney on buying a harmonium, and they drove up
to somewhere in North London where,'cause Barry had a harmonium and
Paul McCartney liked his harmonium.
And then Paul McCartney ringshim up and says, Barry, I've been
playing my harmonium all night.
Come and listen to it.
And so
Barry
trailed
up to,
St. John's Wood, where Maccahad a, his house behind Lords.

(31:06):
And, McCartney plays him.
your mother should know,
which
he's just,
he's
written that night and then,plays I, I'm the walrus
or
something
like that.
But it's just, it was all happening.
It was a whole scene

Ian (31:21):
going
on.

Andy (31:22):
You've
both brought props along.
You've got a lot of stuff here.

Ian (31:25):
we're basically trying to put together a, a little, tribute
to
Barry
tribute
a tribute.
he was also the voice of EJThib, which is, much remarked on.
And in the last issue we tried tocapture a bit of, so Farwell and Barry,
because
it was
but that's about as meta as I've
ever
been
here thinking, normally you'd have been

(31:47):
writing this.
and now it's you.
Barry was here when ChristopherBooker died, and Booker wrote a, a
very serious book called, the SevenPlots, which was all about, it was
an analysis of literature and thejoke in that one was, now you are
in one.
there was some comrad, , spirit there.

Nick (32:09):
You shouldn't underestimate.
How much he did for the magazine.
I edited the, 50 year, retrospectiveof privat eye cartoons,
privat eye, cartoon history.
Barry's there on page one, Andhe's there on page 293 outta 294.
With the scenes, you seldom see so.

Ian (32:29):
Which was one of the last things he did before he retired, which was just,
and I think the one, one of the, one ofthe books was a plumber coming around and
saying, yeah, no, the guy before did a
really good
job.
very
little,
for me to do here.
And that was, the
level
of it.
he just came up with fully

Nick (32:47):
formed
There's, and there's a, there isone of two dads with their, one
with their son between them andsaying, yeah, Ben's not very clever.

Andy (32:59):
They're such good.
That was one of the first things Iliked in the mag when I was reading
it when I was much younger, wasjust, there's just pure observational
comedy observation.
But he was also part of the kindof initial core joke writing
trio, which was Ingram's Booker

Ian (33:12):
Yeah.
they were a trio for a very longtime, and they were all great
classical music lovers, so theywere always talking about a trio.
collaboration was something,that I think worked particularly
well, for the eye and still does.
nearly everything is done.
with sort of lots of people trying todo things together, because everyone
brings something different to the party.

(33:34):
I, when I first joined the eye, Iwas allowed into this trio, which
Booker then said had become aquartet, which is very good of them.
they were.
Incredibly, open and, friendly.
And Barry particularly, Nick claimshe taught him to draw, which I'm,
it was about time.
Someone did.

Nick (33:54):
no, he was incredibly welcoming.
which we would probably, we wouldbe very suspicious of anybody
trying

Ian (33:59):
yeah.
Andy,

Andy (34:00):
yeah,

Nick (34:00):
their way
in.

Andy (34:01):
16 years.
I'll get there one day.
Yeah.

Nick (34:04):
but I think Barry took his cue from Peter Cook really?
'cause he recounts in his book abouthow when he, was first working at the
eye and, Peter just arrived and nobodyelse was there, but Peter was just very
friendly to him and just said, oh, andBarry said, oh, I'm doing some jokes.
And he's, Peter said, oh, great.

(34:25):
let's do some jokes together.
And Barry was like thatwith, certainly with me.
it, it took a long, quite a few yearsto get into the writing process.
But, once we, were working together,he was a wonderful collaborator.
He'd pick up ideas, run with them,improve them, embellish them.
Yeah.
but also, just go off oncook like flights to fantasy.

(34:49):
which was much more his, he wasn't avery sort of political animal, was he?

Ian (34:53):
No.
Richard would have ideas,would have specific jokes.
Booker always wanted to make a point.
I'm
a bit more like him.
he wanted it to make sense.
He wanted it to be logical.
Barry was like a voice.
You
said,
what does a very left wingperson sound like Barry?
Go?
basically it's absolutely sickening,the attitude of everybody.

(35:15):
And
you'd think,
oh, that's Dave
Spa.
that's
Dave Spa.
Or, We said, royal coverageis really terrible.
it's like bad romantic novels.
And Barry would go, Charlesput down his pen breathlessly.

Andy (35:28):
The Sylvie Kriner, 'cause he was
Yeah.
Heavily involved inSylvie Krinn, wasn't he?
the, for, anyone listening to this, SylvieCris, the Eyes, Barbara Koland, which for
younger listeners, just ask your parents.
but, those are mad.
They just go off into mad tangents of
jokes and they go round andround, the, sort of fractal puns

Ian (35:46):
Another of the voices
he did was
Glenda Slag, which was, based on
Gene Rook.
It was very, opinionated.
sixties tabloid journalists who basically
wrote two.
Versions of the same thing.
And it was an attack on journalistshaving no particular views.
So paragraph one was,aren't you sick of him?
and
paragraph two was, don't you love

(36:07):
him?

Andy (36:08):
And

Ian (36:08):
was an incredibly funny
template about nearly alljournalism about public life.
And nowadays you read, the Mirror orthe Sun or the Daily Mail or any of
those papers, and day to day it's, yeah.
Aren't you sick of him?
Day two?
Yeah.
Don't you love him?
and it was
a very good observation.
Collaborating with him, you would tryand say, can we get the idea in here?

(36:29):
And then maybe we can do this
at
the
end.

Nick (36:31):
you, we, would all be discussing, the sort of issues we should be writing
about.
And it was somethinglike conspiracy theories
and
Barry would just come out with.
A headline Moon is
fake
claims nutter,
and
it just a piece would write itself

Andy (36:48):
straight
right to the

Nick (36:49):
of his head.

Ian (36:50):
Yes.
There was me thinking, how do wecounter the fact that there's so many
conspiracies about the moon landing
and

Andy (36:56):
Barry the

Ian (36:56):
decides that the moon is
fake, there is no moon.
and that's what real conspiracytheories think, which is just

Nick (37:05):
funny.
my
my favorite bit of collaboration withBarry was when I think back in about
2006 or oh seven, smoking was bannedin pubs and we were just talking about
it and we, decided we'd write an eyewitness piece It was Phil Ashtray
or somebody like that, or, Ken Fags.
it was a, I was there.
As the last cigarette was

(37:26):
smoked,
and
Barry
just
came out with this line, he said, I wasthere with tears in my eye because of the
smoke
and
a

Andy (37:34):
in
my throat
'Nick: cause I
got
cancer
and
it was
so
black and I thought it was one of the
funniest
things
I'd ever heard.
I was crying with
laughter
and he just pulled.
But he does it all in his voice, 'cause
it's just, he adopted the characteryou just knew the journalist
that
he was.
channeling

Ian (37:52):
Yes.
Both pompous and very
bad.
Like a lot of these eyewitness
accounts,

Andy (37:58):
a tradition that continues.
Ian, you've got a bookof, is it Nomar here?

Ian (38:01):
Yes.
that was another thing Barry absolutelyloved, which is fake adverts.
Yeah.
For products at Christmas.
And then we've starteddoing them in the summer.
but he had a, a gift for,
items, that were, entirely, ridiculous.
but some of them later.
Which was quite odd.
Turned out to, to be real, right?

(38:21):
So he would invent somethinglike, a pair of Wellingtons
that had, lights in the end.
so you would never get lostgoing out to put your bins
out.
Yeah.
So these wellies would havelights, in both the end.
You'd never get caught in the dark.
They were welly light, electric rubber
boots.
And a couple of years laterthey were on the market.

Andy (38:42):
did you invent sat nav?
I think
an early version of Sat Nav is, I'msure that was in No Marta at some
point.
I think we might have
mentioned it.
Sat Nav.
Yeah.

Nick (38:49):
It's something you know Barry,
but

Ian (38:51):
Yeah.
He was very keen on items for your

Nick (38:53):
dog
for Fido.
Why should,
your
man's best friend miss out on,

Andy (38:59):
the
video?
Boom.

Nick (39:00):
It's

Andy (39:03):
dogs.

Ian (39:03):
he did something called the dicta brawl.
This was for businessmen, and itwas an umbrella that in the handle
there was a dictaphone so thatyou could make important speeches
while
you were in the rain.
And
that was his world where,people always needed special
gadgets
because

Nick (39:21):
but we help.
we, but yeah, even after he'd,technically retired, every Christmas
we'd get in contact and say,Barry, have you got any sheaths
of,
ideas
would
come through.
And it was always, the singing ping pong
tree
of from
Thailand,

Ian (39:37):
Yep.

Nick (39:38):
warning, it may not

Andy (39:40):
sing

Nick (39:40):
or,
they

Ian (39:42):
the Charles and Diana tap tops were, I

Andy (39:47):
think,

Ian (39:48):
a terrific idea.
pair of taps that on your bath.
one was Charles and was one was Diana.
And you they were the right royal taps.
Charles is hot
and dies cold.
and you
would just combine theperfect level of warmth.

Andy (40:03):
And we should say, and if sort of Barry survives in the
magazine, if you look in the, backpages, you'll see the, in the city.
That logo?

Nick (40:10):
Yes.

Andy (40:11):
Is Barry any mention of th thib?
That's, Barry Originally

Nick (40:14):
he was brilliant at formats, like Coleman Balls, now

Ian (40:18):
commentator

Nick (40:20):
Barry.
Compile the original Coleman balls anyreference to Nessun is generally Barry,

Andy (40:26):
I still sometimes chuck in if I'm writing a joke of reference to Nessun,
and I wasn't aware thatwas Barry's innovation.
There you go.
Yeah.

Nick (40:33):
he brought football to the
table of the
joke.
Nobody was interested.
Booker still on, but,
Booker was
interested in cricket and he
would do jokes about cricket.
But, Barry created Den and, eeyAdio and Sid and Doris Bonkers and
that, that sort of world of, dismal

Andy (40:53):
North Circuit football

Ian (40:55):
and the, the idea that, really big streamer hits now are about
failing English football clubs.
Barry did
have
the
idea of Nice and FC, the mostuseless football club ever he was
owned by a bloke who ran Laund DRTs.
he was the Launder Armor magnate.
and you just think, Thesejokes are quite familiar.

(41:16):
Yeah.
so
no, I mean he did fillin a lot of those areas.
the great thing, is when I started,was being allowed to go in and do
the voice and join in the joke.
and, obviously there are loads and loadsof formats and lots of new things happen,
but there's still remnants of Barry allover the place, which is very, pleasing.

Andy (41:36):
so farewell and Barry, and thanks to Ian and Nick for talking all about him.
Thanks to Helen and Adam,and to you for listening.
If you would like the edition ofthe Eye with the special enormous
poni tribute that's coming up,that'll be out in a few days time.
The existing edition of the magazine isstill on newsstand and is also terrific.
You can subscribe at Private hyphen.

(41:56):
Dot co.uk.
We will be back again in a fortnightwith another episode of this podcast.
Thank you for listening, and thank you toMatt Hill of Rethink Audio for producing.
Bye for now.