150: Labour, Heatwaves and Glasto

Ian, Helen, Adam and Andy discuss Labour’s first year in almost-power, Britain’s recent unseasonal warmth and what might possibly be causing it, and what you can and can’t shout at Glasto.

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
Page 94, the Private Eye Podcast.
Hello and welcome toanother episode of Page 94.
My name's Andrew Hunter Murray,and I'm here in the private
eye office with Helen Lewis.
Adam McQueen and Ian Hislop.
We're back, it's warm and we'll be talkinga bit about that later, but we're gonna
start off, getting in a couple of daysahead of the great big anniversary.

(00:20):
Do you remember where you werewhen Liz Truss lost her seat?
it's coming up to a year since, Thatsad day and it's first year report card.
Time for the new Labour,sorry, not new Labour.
You know what I mean?
The increasingly aged Labour government.
Yeah.
Helen, how's it going?

Helen (00:40):
Not well.
Oh, no.
You asked, actually about, remember.
I remember my husband woke meup to tell me about this truss.
I had fallen into a stupor by thatpoint, and he was very excited about it.
He wanted me to be awake, so I wouldn't.
see that momentous time?
no, it's going really badly.
we're not just at the,in the, in the moment.
We're in the middle ofa big welfare rebellion.
and another u-turn by Starmer.

(01:01):
But he has given a series of interviews inwhich he's admitted it's not going well.
So he said that he regrettedthe island of stranger's speech.
He didn't read it properly beforehe delivered it 'cause he was too.
Preoccupied with foreign affairs, there isa feeling that they really stuffed up over
winter fuel allowance and, double stuffedas well in the sense that it was one of
their first big memorable policy changes.

(01:24):
And then they got themselves toa policy where most people in the
polling thought it, the limit shouldbe brought down that fewer middle
class pensioners should get this.
But then they overcorrect it andthey're now giving it to quite,
quite a little well off people.
But that then stuffs theirargument for welfare cuts.
'cause it's really, it's like youfound a, couple of a hundred million
down the back of the sofa for this.

(01:44):
So are things really as tight as they are?
So the current feeling on the welfarecuts is that they're going to, save
billions less and was initiallyadvertised and as yet there is no
word on where that money comes from.
So they're in a situation whereeverybody in Downing Street
seems to be quite grumpy.
They've already remember got rid of SueGray and now the triumph... the victor
of that fight, Morgan McSweeney...now everyone's grumbling about him.

(02:07):
The policies have been turbulent.
The massive majority has not beenenough to stave off the welfare
rebellion, and Starmer himself justseems really personally quite battered.
So the other things that wasinteresting about that Tom Baldwin
interview, his biographer, interviewedhim for the observer, was saying
that the reason it's a good choice,

Adam (02:22):
good choice, simply, it was actually interviewer, just to,
give the full CV though, not justKeir Starmer's official biographer.
But also Ed Milliband's, spin doctor.
Yeah.
This is a man who was absolutelyembedded in the Labour Party, was
a fairly extraordinary kind of,set of conflict of interest for a
cover story and observer, I felt,

Helen (02:39):
yes, put that aside.
But I think what that meant then, wasthat their interview was unusually
revealing and traditionally theproblem with Starmer interviews has
been that it's like interviewing abrick wall and everybody's somebody
two revealing, we're talking about

Adam (02:51):
giving a report card.
He gave a pretty damning one on himself.
Basically, everything's gone wrongand I'm really sorry about it.

Helen (02:55):
I dunno how I got, I dunno what

Ian (02:57):
I was thinking.
But also on your report card.
You don't usually sayThe dog ate my homework.
you say 'My!

No, I... my homework (03:02):
pretty good.
It's going well.
To say, 'I was a bit tired, I was abit...' even if these things are true,
it does feed into a narrative of, I'm-
...misery.
I'm not sure I'm up mis misery it is.

Helen (03:16):
I think you're right.
Like he said that the Rose Gardenspeech when initially came in and
went, God, this is all terrible.
They again, they, all thatdid was depress people.
But then he accounts for, he says thereason that he overreacted about, freebie
gate, and got very defensive about it,was they were criticizing his wife.
Then he had the fire bombing on his home.
Which I think is genuinely, any,anyone would be distressed by that.

(03:38):
And then his, brother Nick again, hetried to protect and be very private
about died of cancer after having kindof him, again, not wanting to speak
publicly about it, but there is thisrunning theme throughout, which is two
things, which is one, he doesn't reallylike politics, the art of making people
do what you want or convincing them.
And two, he's unable toemotionally articulate his own

(03:58):
story or himself as a character.
In the kind of national narrative,apart from being a bit dry and boring
and a human rights lawyer, it, Ian,tell me, when you are trying to
caricature him and do jokes abouthim, is it actually quite difficult?
Yes.

Ian (04:15):
it, is difficult and usually the jokes are about his failure to
spot what other people are saying.
when the joke comes from him not knowingthat other people around him don't agree.
Yeah.
With his version of himself.
And that is a problem, but, andyou remember when Rishi Cenac
said, don't, go for my wife.
The public didn't care.
People will accept the narrative.

(04:36):
they're not callers, but what they want tosay is, why are you making these mistakes?
And if you say, I'm making these mistakes.
'cause life's tough, it's

Helen (04:44):
tough

Ian (04:45):
for a lot of other people and tougher.
I don't think they buy it.

Helen (04:49):
But also because in the case of Starmer and almost every Prime
Minister, they obviously schemed andplotted intensely to get there, right?
This was a job you really, wanted.
So no, we are not that interestedin you saying, oh gosh, it's
really quite hard, isn't it?
I always felt like that about EdMilliand's tenure at top of Labour is
he was terribly martyred by it all.
And it was like, but you've literally tornyour family apart, your poor mother trying

(05:10):
to arbitrate between the two brothers.
This is how much he wanted it.

Adam (05:14):
does seem to be a bit of a pattern with Labour leaders, isn't it?
That they put all of their energiesand all of their thought and all of
their kind of strategic thinking intobecoming leader and then when they get
there, quite often, don't really know.
I'm a think of Gordon Brownhere, who, spent most of his
time as chancellor, 10 years orwhatever, that was just desperately
scheming to stick over the top.
And he got there just fumbledit completely and didn't
seem to know what, he,

Andy (05:35):
wanted to do with it.
by that metric, Boris Johnson was alsoa brilliant Labour leader, surely?
Yes.
Given the

Ian (05:42):
rise in immigration and borrowing.
you could argue he wasa classic Labour leader,

Helen (05:47):
but you are right.
Sometimes I criticize Ed Balls andGeorge Osborne on the way they talk
about things on their podcast islike everything's a sort of game.
Yeah.
this is, oh, we, did such a great dividingline on this, and and and then they end
up talking about things that you think,that would've been good if it happened.
So well done for scuttling it.
But the other end of that continuumis, Kier who disdains the idea that
you might ever do anything as grubbyas, run a campaign to convince

(06:12):
mps of something that you like.

Ian (06:14):
But isn't one of the problems that we, traditionally blame the advisors.
So I was reading a lot this week,but it's all MCs, Sweeney's fault.
and before that, it was all Sue graceful.
Maybe, it's not, maybe it's star'sfault, I'm just possibly, are we
keen to let people off and thenblame the people around them?

Helen (06:34):
Oh, unbelievably because you don't wanna be disloyal to the
leader who is ultimately the onewith the power of patronage, right?
When they're, there's a lotof Labour mps and most of them
won't have government jobs, Yeah.
So there's an incrediblycutthroat atmosphere among them.
So one thing you don't wantto do is go Starmer's rubbish.
You end up on Rosie Duffield'strajectory where you just criticize
yourself out and out in tent andyou end up as an independent.

(06:56):
And I think there are lots of them whoaren't ready to make that step yet.
So having a go at Morgan McSweeneyis the sort of acceptable face of
something is wrong in this party, butof course, king Starmer can fix it.
We still believe in him.

Adam (07:07):
And it's always quite useful for a leader as well to have a
kind of worm tongue who they cansacrifice at any, given time.
And I'm thinking of the, and there wasa real point of Alistair Campbell is
retiring from Downing Street Post, Huttoninquiry, still stuck around and seemed to
be do, doing the job for most of the time.
Damien McBride was let go, wasn't he?
Partway through, Gordon Brown's tenure.
So it's quite useful to someone you can.
Pete Mandelson, of course, was dumped.

(07:29):
yeah.
Early on, over the mortgages.
So having someone you can putout there as chum to distract the
sharks is quite useful as well, I

Ian (07:35):
guess.
And we all say that, oh, the toy party isnow obsessed by, registered and murdering.
But it could be that justeveryone's obsessed by it.
And we've had, Keir Starmer'shas been in charge for ages.
Can we have someone else now?
Is not everybody guilty of this failureto, have an attention span more than
about a year for any one leader?

(07:56):
I'm just, I'm concerned.

Helen (07:57):
No, you, I think there is an interesting point about trying to be
really objective about marking howwell the government has done, which
is just really hard in terms of, theyput in lots of things that won't.
Payoff for several years, like theattempt to get house building going,
for example, like Angela Raynercalling in projects and approving them.
Those are things that mightlook very different in five
years time than they do now.
But one thing, I think the thing thatyou were alluding to is the fact that

(08:19):
Starmer is quite ill suited for being aprime minister in the age of social media.
yeah, he's just doesn't like it.
He doesn't do it.
It's not his, I think it was just that

Adam (08:28):
he doesn't like doing politics as it is in the modern era.
He might be in the wrong job though,

Andy (08:32):
right?
you become a, I know he's only been a.An MP since 2015, but there is this.
Supposed rule of politics that whoevercan govern the newest medium wins.
And unfortunately, by that metric, that'sNigel Farage, Because ni, I think some
extraordinary state has more followers onTikTok than the other 649 mps combined.

Ian (08:53):
And that's good.
Is it?

Andy (08:54):
No, not.
I don't think so.

Ian (08:56):
I'm joking Andy!

Andy (08:57):
But it is.
Yeah.
he's...

Helen (08:58):
But he talks very directly to people, doesn't he?
That's the, point.
He's found a way to bypass mediagatekeepers, which is meant that they've
ended up running to catch up with him.
I think that's one of the things thatLabour struggles to do is they're
still locked into the Sunday showsand the morning broadcast round.
There is this obsession

Adam (09:13):
with the newspapers as well.
Yeah.
Which are, I'm afraid, a dying industryin terms of setting the agenda.
But they do, still seem toset the agenda for a lot of.
Newspapers, not magazines.
Magazines are doing brilliantly.
Yeah.
But there is this desperate numberand they spent so much time,
there are redundancies available.
So much time courting the sun andthe Times and all the Murdoch papers
before the election to no avail really.
It didn't get them anywhere.
They got a really sort ofhalf-hearted last minute, endorsement

(09:36):
from the sun and not even onefrom the Times, I don't think.
And, they're working in an analogage still that the idea that
it's the somewhat want it, whichwas never particularly true.
Anyway,

Helen (09:45):
the other interesting thing I think is the attitude towards reform.
So Starmer says it.
Implicitly in that observer article thatyes, he's running against Nigel Farage,
which on the surface looks mad, right?
It's a party with half a dozenmps, but they're leading in
almost every poll these days.
And the other thing he says, whichI don't think he's done yet, is if
the, reforms arguments are reallypopular, we have to take them head on.
I would probably like to see a bitmore of that because for all that

(10:08):
he's recanted island of strangers.
He says he regrets the, and anyidea there was an echo of Enoch
Powell, although they didn't see it.
He also said he regrets what was inthe forward to that white paper, which
remember when we picked up on the podcasthere, which was that immigration is done
incalculable damage to this country.
But, the problem about that is youcan say, oh, I wish I hadn't said
such spicy things, but he's not.

(10:28):
Said anything proactively himselfyet that is anti Nigel Farage.
I just, I'm not sure.
What they really need is a coupleof absolute attack dogs who will
go personally and hard for NigelFarage, but have the credibility,
the background, and the.
Aptitude with social mediato play in that sphere.
Who have they really gotthat's got that ferocity?

Adam (10:50):
Angela Rayner could probably do it, but they're quite scared
of her because she's seen as beingthe big rival to star, isn't she?
Yeah.
Oh yeah.
so she's not allowed tobe any good publicly.
She's allowed out in public.
Is she?
Very much.

Helen (11:00):
I guess for her it's also, yeah, as you say, it's a question
about how much she wants toassociate herself with this project.
That's not really going very well.
Because someone who, is delightingand not going well, maybe that's a
bit over, over the top, but certainlyAndy Burnham is handing around the
fringes going, I wouldn't cut welfare.
Just putting it out there.
Yeah.
And then s Khan too, to some extent,that is the problem of having
those big mayors who don't sit inparliament is that they can say,

(11:22):
oh, I
Personally would give everybody
a rabbit

Adam (11:25):
we've talked a lot about the failure to do anything with messaging.
the messaging that the mps were sentout there to defend these welfare
cuts before the U-turn on them wascompletely disingenuous anyway.
Because it was trying to, essentiallythis is all about saving money as
everything is in government at themoment, but it was presented as in this
totally nonsensical way of restrictingpersonal independence payments.
We'll get people back into work.

(11:45):
that doesn't work because personalindependence payments aren't related.
They're not an employment, alternative.
They are there to support people withthe, mobility equipment or the, care
needs that they have in order to be ableto live their life, which an enormous
percentage of people who are on PIPis, does involve actually working.
So the argument didn't even makesense that they were being sent
out to sacrifice themselves.

(12:06):
But

Helen (12:06):
you are right.
That comes back tofollowing the papers, right?
'cause they halfway wanted a,sun friendly scrounge of Britain.
Too many people are out of work.
They need to know the valueof a honest day's graft.
And then they also didn't wanna upsetall of the key groups and disability
groups and the, and their own mpsand people who've been through that
process and know that it can bereally bureaucratic and horrible.
So you are right.
They ended up neither doingone nor the other really.

Ian (12:29):
But that's true in all of the major U-turns, isn't it?
Yeah.
the U-turn, 'cause they didn't getthe message right to start with
saying people like Ian should notbe claiming winter fuel benefit old
balls, who can afford it anyway.
Good messaging.

Adam (12:44):
They didn't do any of that.
Even now, the compromise they'vecome to seems equally nonsensical.
There's a moment we're speaking aheadof the vote, which is gonna be on
Tuesday this week, but the suggestionnow is that the restrictions on pip,
are gonna come in for future applicants.
But nothing is gonna change forthe people who are on it now.
Yes.

Helen (13:00):
So if you've got multiple sclerosis, now you're gonna get, help
that people who are diagnosed withmultiple sclerosis in 2027 won't get.

Adam (13:08):
it's, either wrong or it's not wrong, isn't it?
But this

Helen (13:10):
alludes to these, the salient factor of British politics, and
I guess probably all politics youneed to understand, which is that
once you give people entitlements,it's really hard to take them away.

Adam (13:18):
the Winter Fuel Allowance is spoken about now as if it was part of
Magna Carta or something 90, was it 97?
99? Gordon Brown brought that in.
But once it's there, youcan't then rain back on it.

Andy (13:27):
Isn't there a one-off?
10 pound payment.
That was a Gordon Browninnovation that appears.
Yeah.
Yeah.
It's the Christmas 10 pound topup, andit appears in everyone's statement at the
end of the year when you're totting up.
if you're liable for tax or anything,all these other quite normal
looking amounts of money, there'sone little tenor in there as well.
And that is the samekind of thing, isn't it?
But the

Helen (13:47):
winter fuel Lance, you're entirely right.
Adam was brought in at atime when pensioners were
the poorest group in Britain.
They're now the wealthiestgroup in Britain.
And that's not to say there aren'tpeople within that cohort who are really
challenged, but there are also lots ofquite middle class people who are doing
better than working age people who arenot getting help with their fuel bills.

Andy (14:02):
So, what's wrong with the policy as it originally was?

Helen (14:07):
just bad messaging, bad sell.
No, the cutoff at 11,500 was too low.
Okay.
I think that was the thing and,the polling said that a plurality,
people thought the policy wascorrect, but they've now changed it
again to make it really quite high.
there's all kinds of weird stuff aboutthe tax system relating to pensions.
They don't pay nationalinsurance, for example.
Like I just, that seems to me to be,people can write it and explain to me

(14:27):
why I'm wrong about that, but I dunno whywe treat pinch pension incomes so very
differently from working age incomes.
when the, like the, demographicchange has been so stuck and
which is good by the way.
I'm just saying.
It's really good that people livelonger and there are a few of them
freezing to death in their homes.
That's great.
But political reality hasn't caught upwith it yet, nor has it caught up with
the fact that, particularly since thepandemic, a lot of people, more people

(14:49):
are sick and claiming benefits and thereis clearly something, whether or not you.
Think all of those are legitimate or not.
That is just a statistical fact.
So we do have to do something about it.

Ian (14:59):
Yes.
And if you don't state that, if youdon't admit that upfront that this
is the situation and we're trying todo something about it, then people
just assume your motives are wrong.
Yeah, I think it's difficult.
I know some of the pressdo it to say, Starmer.
What he really wants to do is targetpoor people and make them poorer.
I'm guessing that isn't true.
Yeah, I would guess that'snot his life's work.

(15:21):
but if, you allow that to grabhold as some sort of macho,
position in your, politicing.
Then it will.
I'm worried that Anthony Seldensays that K Starmer has started
off worse than Liz Truss.

Andy (15:39):
It's not the review you want, is it?
So do we have a little list oftop tips or recommendations?
Send out Big Ange against.
Big Nij, stop doings.
When you say, I thought

Helen (15:49):
you were talking about poster Cogley, and I was like,
he's been sacked by Spurs.
Andy, what are you talking about?
But yes.
Okay.
You've

Andy (15:53):
lost me already

Helen (15:55):
So ripped de her into some football law that I think the problem is they need
to level with people about how littlemoney we've got and the fact that it's now
a zero sum game between competing groups.
And if they're gonna givewinter fuel, Lance, that means
that is coming from somebody.
but they, obviously, they won't do that.
I also, and I've been sayingthis now for some time, I, can,
I'm gonna keep saying it is.
Just put up income tax, just do it.

(16:17):
I don't, want to, none of us inthis room I'm sure are clamoring
to pay more tax, but there are, noways to, we can't borrow anymore.
Our debt repayments arealready pretty crippling.
There's not obvious cuts, or atleast not obvious immediate cuts
without some upfront investment.
Like I'm sure we could cut, thespending on justice in prisons.
But we're gonna have to getthrough the backlog first.

(16:37):
We could maybe cut some of thespending on asylum, but we're gonna
have to get through the backlog first.
There's lots of sticking plaster solutionsall over stuff that we will require
money to, put in first to, to fix them.
And I dunno how you don't dothat with just simply more.
Anyway.
Rachel Reeves will come to thisconclusion in about September.
I would've thought so.
Yeah.

Ian (16:55):
You need one of your big hitters to point out that the Reform
version of, tax less spend more.
Doesn't usually work.

Helen (17:04):
No, I thought his Robin Hood tax idea, this one off fee for non doms,
that then you give it to poor people.
I thought that was really, he's gotthe opposite problem to, Stan, which
is, that's really smart politically.
I like the idea of saying, let's chargerich people a flat fee and let's get
that directly to the poorest people.
Unfortunately, Dan Nigel, who'sa tax expert that I would trust
has just gone, I'm sorry, the.

(17:24):
Some simply don't work like this is,you'll lose a lot of money by doing that.
billions and billions.
It doesn't work.
It's a nice idea.
But you'll see in that the contoursof the new Nigel Farage argument,
which is our protected interestgroups are gonna get more money.
He's not a dry thatcherite,fiscal conservative anymore.
He is, I think, as you weresaying earlier in he's like left

(17:45):
new, left wing, Nigel, right?
He wants to give.
He wants to give the people who might votereform more money and protect their money.
and he claims that there's an easy costfree way of doing this, but there's not,

Andy (17:56):
well, at least there's no time in the past where he's claimed
something, where the numbers don'tadd up and won a lot of people over

Helen (18:02):
anyway.

Ian (18:04):
You have to bring it up, don't you?
Yeah.
I think we should point out that duringthe ad break there's been a coup Yeah.
And a rather dry leader ofthe podcast has been replaced.
Wow.
By his feisty female deputy.
God,

Helen (18:19):
that's so true.
The gobby woman has finally taken over.
Andy, I want you to tell me, Andy,why is it so bloody hot and is it.
Is it fossil fuels or is it just the sun?

Andy (18:31):
Think about it.
it's a combination ofvolcanoes, sunspot activity.
Nothing to do with fossil fuels at all.
So don't worry about that.

Helen (18:37):
But genuinely, we're, as we're recording this, it's in the thirties
outside and that is unusual for June?
Or is it, 'cause that wasthe problem for a long time.
If you remember, every time someone wouldtalk about global warming, someone would
go, it didn't feel very warm, does it?
It's very cold in here.
It's December.

Andy (18:52):
I had a little look at the Met Office who do keep quite good
records on this sort of thing, Thisspring, it's been between 1.3 and 1.6
degrees above the long-term average.
That is obviously a weird thing to saywhen it is sweltering the hot outside,
you think it is not 1.6 degrees warmer.
Actually, when you do that at aglobal level, what it means in
reality is that bits of the UK arefive degrees warmer than normal.

(19:15):
Some bits of the UK as we recall this, are11 degrees warmer than they normally are.
So the sort of the 1.5 degrees aboveactually translates to really quite
scorchy temperatures for all of us.
so that's the met.
Yeah.

Helen (19:28):
And are British homes and buildings particularly badly adapted for this?
I say this to somebody who livesin a house that in about June
transforms into an oven, and doesn'ttransform back again until September.

Andy (19:40):
a lot of people are probably rethinking their
conservatories around now.
That is true to.
Say, I don't think the UKis especially badly adapted.
I think traditionally we've hada kind of very normal, pretty
mild climate in both directions.
the reason that we struggle when it snowsunexpectedly in winter is that it's only
ever been snowy for a couple of days.
So we've never bothered buyinga huge fleet of snowplows
as you might get in Canada.

(20:00):
Same thing is happening now withheat as the climate is warming.
our homes are not really builtfor this kind of heat, but I don't
think Britain is unusual in having.
Set up its entire society andinfrastructure and everything like that
for a particular range of temperatures,which we're now going beyond bits of
Europe are now 42 to 46 degrees Celsius.

(20:21):
Southern Spain is not builtfor 46 degrees Celsius.
You know that.
Nowhere really is outsideplaces like Saudi Arabia.

Helen (20:29):
Nowhere is it, India hit 50 at some point in the last
couple of years, didn't it?
Yeah.
And there were all the like listsof stuff that they had to do, the
traffic policemen wearing like sleevesmade of ice, to go and like just
trying to keep people who had to workoutside cold is almost impossible.

Andy (20:41):
Yeah.
Yeah.
So I think Ev everywhere is.
Is maladjusted for the temperatures thatwe're having now is, basically the thing,

Adam (20:46):
oh, blame grand designs for this.
But the adaptation everyone has beenmaking for the last sort of 30 years,
whenever they do a property, is toreplace most of it with glass, isn't it?
enormous glass extensions and things.
So actually, presumably, we, are actuallymaking things worse quite a lot when we're

Andy (20:59):
sell your shares in.
Glas and buy shares inBlind manufacturers.
I think that's Blinds manufacturers insun cream are two growth industries,
definitely for the next few decades.

Helen (21:10):
Am I allowed to buy and install air con in my house or
does that make baby icebergs cry?

Andy (21:15):
It's all electricity demand, isn't it?
But I think if it's extremely hot.
People need air conditioning.
I think saying that we shouldn'thave air conditioning is a bit of an
unusual argument saying you shoulds swelter through 40 degree heat.
The thing to do really is ensure thatthe electricity you're powering your
air conditioning with is renewable.
Now you might not be able to installSoler yourself on your own home or

(21:35):
whatever it is, but the idea is that aswe install lots more renewable energy,
that it covers all the growth in demandand then starts heating into existing.
Fossil demand.
That's, the idea.

Ian (21:47):
Is it my imagination Andy, or do I not hear any of this when I, turn
on the television or open a newspaper?
it's lovely.
It's hot is the mainsentiment, is not Oh my God.
You what a scorcher.
Yeah.

Helen (22:01):
Look at these fruity young ladies on Brighton breach, I think
is still a lively growth area.

Andy (22:04):
It certainly is.
Yeah.
I have been looking through variouspapers in terms of how they deal with it.
You will get little bits of coverage,especially if there is a heat wave
inferno in Europe that might killBritish tourists, that gets coverage.
the, bit at the back of the paperwhere someone has to write a column
about the weather every day, theywill often mention it because these.
CACs know what they're talking about.

(22:25):
Yeah.
but overall, the editorial line,certainly of most papers is it's lovely
and hot of, as we mentioned a lot inthis podcast, newspaper readers are
older than average by quite some way.
In fact, the older you get in Britishpopulation, the more concerned on
average people are about climate change.
You might think it would be youngerpeople who are more concerned given
they're gonna have to live withit for, 50 or 60 years actually.

(22:49):
People who say they're atleast fairly concerned.
It's bigger in the over 60 fives, so itfeels like newspapers are not really, I

Helen (22:54):
believe that because I already feel like, I remember summers when
I was young, did not feel like this.
I'm, I, feel like in my lifetimethe weather has become more extreme
and if you've lived for twiceas long as I have, then you must
be thinking, this is weird now.
Yeah.
This is very

Andy (23:05):
weird.
Someone said to me recently, oh, these,aren't the calm English summers I remember
from my childhood, they were my age of 37.
that's a very short timescalefor things to have got.
Like this.

Helen (23:16):
And one of the saddest things I think in the American
context, particularly the Atlanticran peace saying that we've
lost those cool summer evenings.
Like one of the really big thingsthat's hard to adapt to now is the
fact it's not just 30 during theday, but it's 24 during the night.
Yeah.
And that's terrible for people sleeping.
It's terrible for animals.

Andy (23:31):
it's just, it's terrible for old people.
there was a huge heat wave inEurope in 2003, which I think.
Led to 70,000 excess deaths.
Wow.
So this, the newspapers tend not to runpictures of dogs fainting in the heat
or farmers struggling to plant crops.
But that, is quite,

Helen (23:46):
but that's, that makes it weirder then, because that's the,
that is the people who buy news.
I, know,

Andy (23:50):
I know.
It's an, editorial line thing.
And again, most papers have quite decent.
Coverage of the actual news with acouple of really dishonorable exceptions.
are we going to name themThe Telegraph and the mail?
yeah.
the Telegraph coverage really is go

Helen (24:07):
and gimme an example.

Andy (24:08):
I'd love to, that, let's bring it back to the Arm Magazine private eye.
there was a piece a couple of issues agopointing out the sheer number of times
the Telegraph has said, yeah, we gotexactly all of this climate story wrong.
We're very happy to correct it.
They printed a story saying.
The UK is planning 10 timesthe number of Soler panels.
It actually is right.
Being out by an order of magnitudeis not good when you're a reporter.

(24:31):
they claimed renewables were responsiblefor the big Spanish blackout.
It was actually due to powerplants of all kinds, not
managing their voltage properly.
the all, I have a newone for you if you like.
Yes.
In May they printed a graph from areally embarrassing outfit called
the Renewable Energy Foundation.
They're actually incrediblyhostile to renewable energy.
Always standard name yourself afterthe thing you're trying to destroy.

(24:51):
And that graph, it claimed that40% of the electricity is renewable
subsidy, of one kind or another.
Obviously, that's not true.
it's between six and 8%.
I feel like even if it weretrue, I'd be in favor of it, but
the point is.
It's not true.
Yeah.
Really important thingto drive home there.
Only a few days ago we hada headline in the Telegraph.
Heat Waves will Trigger Net Zero Meltdown,which is where all the technologies that

(25:13):
are being installed to try and deal withclimate change and take the edge off it.
Actually, they'll all stopworking if it gets warm.
They, won't,

Helen (25:21):
although the Guardian does notoriously have an air cooling system
in its offices, which packs up whenit gets above a certain tempera.
Okay.
Which is a bit, I think this is

Ian (25:30):
what we call anecdotal evidence.
Yeah.
No, I,

Helen (25:32):
I, I do still think that climate change is real.
why look to you for Andy is, it,is somebody to slightly cheer me up
that we're not all just going to doomto fry like bacon in a frying pan.

Andy (25:42):
Yeah.
Yeah, I'll have a go.
we know it's gonna get warmer.
Like the amount the world isemitting is about 40 billion tons
a year of carbon dioxide, whichis not something any of us can.
No one can really compute that, anduntil it comes down to a net of zero
that is being emitted, that meanseither we're emitting nothing or we're
emitting some, but we're using naturalzincs or carbon capture to soak up

(26:04):
what we are emitting a net of zero.
Then it stops.
It stops getting worse.
At the moment, obviously emissionsare still rising a little bit, so it's
getting worse, a little bit faster.
I suppose.
The good news is that we have solutionsfor about 75% of emissions at the moment.
The hugest sectors to.
Take fossil fuels out of that,that solutions really do exist

(26:25):
for are electricity, groundtransportation, heating and cooling.
Our homes at about half of industrial use.
You can easily do it with renewable,renewably sourced electricity.
So the solutions do exist.
It's now really a matter of politicallyfinding the, the will and the.
the acceleration to rollthem out as fast as possible.

(26:46):
There are still a couple that are tricky.
Aviation shipping, no one'sinvented a plane that can
fly 5,000 miles on batteries.

Ian (26:52):
carbon capture doesn't yet exist, is it?

Andy (26:54):
Carbon capture will need to scale up a huge amount.
Larger than a small pothole.
Yeah.
It's, it's going to have to becomea much bigger industry than it is.
but I thought theseessential technologies isn't

Ian (27:07):
really

Andy (27:08):
there.
Is it Only, at the moment it capturesa, I don't want it not to be there.
I'm just saying I want to be realistic.
At the moment, it captures avery, small amount of emissions.
if you're holding a tray of glasses,the analogy is, it's much easier.
not to drop the glasses in thefirst place than to say, I'm going
to invent a terrific dust panbrush if I can, put it that way.

(27:28):
Yeah.
And solutions exist.
It's, but it's not cheery.
No, But the, the cheery bitis, solutions exist for the
overwhelming majority of this stuff.

Helen (27:37):
And, Ian is our old Sparky, our columnist who looks
at all this sort of stuff.
Is he on the same page?

Ian (27:42):
not entirely, but that's all right.
but he's very good on the,myth of carbon capture and, the
fact that it would be lovely.
When it's, available towork, but it isn't now.
And it really would be worth consideringthat, he's an energy specialist and
he tells you, about what's going wrongand what's going the wider point's

(28:02):
about, and I'm particularly interestedin selling the message of, he's, he's
very much aware of climate change,

Adam (28:09):
right?

Ian (28:10):
No, we are not in that territory.
What I like to see is, there any way.
Of doing anything about this in a waythat you can take people with you.
It's your point aboutStarmer and politics.
It's a lovely idea, that you could bepure in your beliefs about this, but if
no one wants to come with you, how do

Andy (28:29):
you do it?
there was a consensus on this politically.
Very much I think probably before itstarted getting to the sharp end of
actually having to do it, whereas now theconservative form have really rode back.
They're now saying, let's noteffectively, and let's not try on this.
Which is, I don't knowif that message works.
I think the important thing isfor it not to seem like it's being
imposed on people, but we had

Ian (28:50):
a political change in that Cameron was, managed to sell the green
conservative and Boris of all people.
Yeah.
took the public with him, the idea.
Oh, if Boris says the green agenda's good.
maybe it is.
Yeah, maybe that's all right.
And that was lost.

Andy (29:06):
Just to counter the kind of really bad report card that you
had in the last section, Helen.
The climate and environment stuff isone area where particularly the British
government have been taking a leadand Ed Milliband, ed Milli Band's,
unlike a hero reinvention, but hespent years on this before becoming the
minister at the Department of EnergySecurity and Net Zero and pretty much.

(29:26):
Every day, every week since the election,there has been an announcement, which
has been broadly welcomed by industry,by green groups, by, by all sorts
of people who are normally reallyunhappy about all sorts of stuff,

Ian (29:37):
but not in editorials.
In the editorials, I. Everythingis Ed Milliman's fault.
Yes.
And he's about to be sackedpermanently, but he never is,

Andy (29:44):
he?
No, it's, one of the thingski has been really consistent
on is this stuff matters.
It is a big growth opportunity.
you talk about wantingto get to 2% growth.
China is rolling out electrictechnologies and green technologies,
Soler, EVs, all of this.
The main bureau of the ChineseCommunist Party are not woke.

(30:05):
they're doing it because they wannasell this stuff to the entire world.
Happily, it'll take the edge ofclimate change, but that's, not
the only reason they're doing it.
That seems like

Adam (30:11):
quite a big turnaround.
'cause the excuse that people alwaysmade was all, there's no point in us
doing anything towards net zero 'causeChina's still pumping out all of this.
It surprises me that they do seemto be accelerating the green stuff.

Andy (30:21):
China still gets a huge amount of its electricity from coal.
They're still unlike almost everywhereelse in the world, building coal plants.
But they're also building.
Ginormous amounts of Soler and wind power.
truly unnaturally huge amounts.
And now these days, half thecars in China come with a plug.
10 years ago it was.
A handful of percent.
So the change is very rapid.

(30:42):
And I suppose that's theother positive thing.
In 2012, the UK got 42% of itselectricity from burning coal.
We've just shut down our last coal plant.
When these things dochange, they can change.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And, Labour's entire policy in powerhas been to, it's a two-pronged thing.
Firstly, they want to cleanup the electricity supply.

(31:03):
'cause at the moment we get about athird of electricity from burning gas.
Secondly, they want to.
Change the uses so that everything weuse, whether that's heating our homes
with heat pumps, driving around electriccars, comes from that clean electricity.
So Chris Stark, who's the head of theClean Power Mission, has said, this is not
a mad sprint to 2030 getting clean power.

(31:23):
This is the warmup for a marathon.
We're going to need a lot more power.
We want it to be clean, and cleanlysourced, which seems a much more sellable
approach than we're all going to die.
Yes, absolutely.
Yeah.
Yeah, it's, it is weird reading.
People who you think would besort of solutions oriented saying,
there's no point in doing anything.
Oh, Trump's got back in.

(31:44):
There's no point in doing anything.
but that's

Helen (31:45):
because that's a sort of millary tendency, isn't it?
That's the sort of same impulseof people who boast about going
off grid or whatever it might be.
Yeah, like a kind of that, like theDegrowth thing I think is just a,
particular psychology among a certain setof people, but it's not widely shared.

Andy (31:59):
I would say that Doomers and net zero.
Skeptics are two hands of the same glove.
Hang on.
That's not, I believe that George

Helen (32:06):
Galloway line is two cheeks of the same R, so there you go.
Yeah.

Andy (32:10):
Yeah.
they both say, let's notdo anything about this.
There's no point.
So there are lots of things, policiesthat have been announced, things
like new houses or to have Solerpower and heat pumps, which will mean
they're, no, they're low or not zerobill houses, but low bill houses.
That feels like the sort of thingyou can sell to the electorate.
Oh, my house has

Helen (32:26):
got Soler panels 'cause it's a new build and that, I'll tell you
what, when all those energy priceprices happen, post invasion of
Ukraine, I, yeah, I really felt it.
It was really, good.

Andy (32:34):
So that I think is the challenge by the next election is to say,
right here are the concrete results.

Helen (32:39):
The other thing I thought was interesting, we had a report in the
magazine by fluky, which was about thefact that King Charles is, must have keen
on this stuff and therefore rather, saidMiller Milliband, which must be cheery.
Fred Milliband.
Yeah.

Andy (32:49):
It's nice for him to have a friend anywhere this, in this
incredibly hostile environment.
He finds himself.
Himself.
Is that the king or

Ian (32:55):
Allman?

Helen (32:56):
That's probably what they talk about.
Yeah.
Maybe they, yeah.
Unfortunately, I think the report saidthat Ki Star tried to muscle in on this
and was he wasn't allowed to be friends.
He complain about, oh, that's the idea

Adam (33:04):
of them exchange.
Yes.
my brother's awful as well.
I don't get on with him at all.

Andy (33:13):
Let's turn to something even more cheerful than a heat pump.
Not possible.
Glastonbury.
Adam, you were there.
I-

Adam (33:21):
I was there on my sofa watching Pulp and enjoying the Red Arrows going over.
Yeah, no, I, was nowhere near it atall, but the sofa was the place to be
where you watching the livestream now,everyone was expecting the contentious
bit to be kneecap, who no lesser personthan the prime minister and the leader
of the opposition had demanded, shouldnot be either put on stage platformed

(33:43):
at Glastonbury or broadcast on the BBC.
So the BBC.
This is of course because onemember of the, Irish band, Kneecap,
is facing terrorism chargesover holding up a, I believe, a
Hezbollah flag at a recent concert.
That being, of course, a prescribedterrorist organization, no lesser
person than the Prime Minister, andin fact, leader of the opposition as
well, said that Vassey should not beplatforming this band and the BBC should

(34:05):
certainly not be broadcasting their set.
So the BBC very carefully decided notto put them out on the live stream.
They were gonna put 'em on a delay.
And have them, broadcast lateron, but then a chance to edit
it out, anything terrible.
And while they were getting on with that,the band that were on directly before them
on stage who go by the appalling name ofBob Villain, which is just, I was gonna
say the worst pun in pop, but actuallythe Beatles take that, don't they?
but pretty awful.

(34:25):
Anyway, Bob, my

Helen (34:26):
opinion is on the story changed when I found out that both members
of the band Bob Villain, are knownas Bobby Villain spelled one with a
y and one with an IE. And I thought,what's, what, are we doing here?
no, no

Andy (34:35):
inconsistent branding.
I

Helen (34:36):
know, I don't agree.

Andy (34:37):
That's the subeditor's objection.
Really?
That's, am I supposed to talk apart?

Adam (34:40):
Which one?
Which Mr. Villain.
So Bob Villain were meantto play before Kneecap.
They did play before kneecap.
and as part of their set, they chanted,both from the river to the sea, that very
controversial slogan about, what's goingon in Israel and Palestine at the moment.
And also death, to the IDF.
Not as has been reported in quote markson the front of several newspapers.

(35:01):
something, the mail on Sundayand the mail went with it.
Death to Israelis.
They're very specific in what they said.
It was the IDF, which is of coursethe Israeli Army who are engaged
in a war on several fronts.
At the moment.
When you say this wasbroadcast... is this on BBC One?
Not on any of the BBC channels thatyou think of as channels at all.
Okay.
Nor was it clipped and added to theGlastonbury channel on the iPlayer

(35:22):
as an option for you to watch.
This was literally a live stream,which was going out where they
just had cameras trained on.
All the different stages at Glastonbury.
'cause there's 400 b BBC staffor something filming pretty
much everything that goes on.
and this was effectively whatused to be called the Red
button, but is now the iPlayer.
It was going out live.
I understand.
This is the equivalent of RadioFour Longwave doing the test
matches pretty much that youYeah, For our older listeners

(35:45):
who were probably the only people
who can afford to closeGlastonbury anyway,

Andy (35:48):
and Brian Johnston was always talking about, the IDF on that, wasn't he?
Yeah.
Sorry, that's one for much

Helen (35:53):
older.
Let's, it's a deep cut.

Adam (35:55):
Interestingly, it's still not available, but the action that was taken.
On Monday, the BBC announced thatwith hindsight, we should have pulled
the stream during the performance.
And we regret that this did not happen.
But what they did do on the day wasto, Immediately say that they wouldn't
put the, a recording of the performanceout as a kind of clipped thing on
iPlayer that people could tune into.
I discovered that you cannot see thaton the b BBC anyway, where you can

(36:16):
see it, where you can see the chantof death, through the IDF is on the
Daily Telegraph website who've got itrunning constantly on a loop, which,
which was well saying how, just howdisgusting and appalling this is.

Ian (36:26):
And the organizers themselves apologized immediately and said
it shouldn't have happened.
So it wasn't just the BBCwho then immediately took no.
Emily

Adam (36:33):
Evis, who is now in charge of Glastonbury said it was against all
of the principles and everything thatGlastonbury holds dear, which is slightly
disingenuous 'cause this is not somethingthat, Bob Villain, who I must admit, I
was not very aware of before that, butapparently is not something that they,
that is uncharacteristic for them, is theydo make political statements like this.
And in fact, those specific chantsat various gigs that they've been to.
The BBC also are slightly introuble, I've discovered in trying

(36:56):
to detach themselves from this.
'cause they have to a certainextent champion Bob Villain.
I had a look, they've donesessions on Radio Six music.
They curated a playlistfor, the, for BBC sounds.
They've also been, liveon Radio one as well.
So there is, it's not as if theycame entirely out of nowhere
except to people like us who maybe,don't follow this kind of music.
there, there, is definitely sometrouble ahead still on this one.

(37:18):
For the BBC,

Helen (37:19):
I just don't know how the BBC can be held responsible for
the fact that rappers have strongpolitical views and that they
will express them in their music.
This is the bit I just don't reallyunderstand with this, I don't think,
personally don't think the death of theIDF chant is inherently antisemitic.
I think the bit, when he talked aboutworking for a record company boss and
he said, we've all made compromises.
We've all worked for fucking Zionists.

(37:40):
That's a bit more is thatjust a code word for Jew?
and this has come up and lots ofblack artists saying that the record
industry is run by Jews and theyjust take advantage of black artists.
this is a fairly wellknown antisemitic drumbeat.
So I'm not going to entirely defend him.
No.
But I also think it's tasteless, but it'slegitimate political speech to my mind.
I. And I don't see why the BBCactually should apologize for it.

(38:03):
And

Adam (38:03):
the people who are most outraged about it are of course the other media
outlets who've been running, a campaignover the last year for absolute free
speech for all, and particularly equatingit with the case of Lucy Connolly.
Absolute directly The Telegraphwas saying on, on Monday.
In fact, they were saying it was worse.
Lucy Cony, of course,is the other definition

Helen (38:19):
is the person who tweeted during the riot saying
Set fire to refugee hotels,

Adam (38:22):
Toby Young, I saw, came up with the extraordinary, Toby Young of the Free
speech, alliance or foundation of theeveryone look at Toby Young organization.
Basically, essentially, said atleast Lucy Connolly caveated what
she said by adding for all iCare.
Which apparently is the thingthat makes a difference.
Now, if you're calling for people to beburned alive, it takes these backsies in.
Yes.

Helen (38:42):
I just wish people would have these arguments and they'd just say
what they think of the actual speechrather than in reference to some other
speech that they disagree or agree with.
Don't you think the reason tocrack down on death the IDF
is as incitement to violence?
So if that's what you think it isand make that case, I don't need to
have a, or you can say this about X,but you can't say it about Y. 'cause
every, otherwise the conversation'sjust become incredibly circular.

Ian (39:02):
But I can see.
The point of Glastonbury, originallyset up by hippies, it was CND.
Calling for other people'sdeaths isn't usually their thing.
Peace, love, not death.
Life on the whole is usually it.
And there, there are very fewacts where people come on and
say, death to the Red Army.
I haven't heard them.

Andy (39:23):
so.
Adam is the problem that now all ofGlasbury has to be completely compliant
with B, B, C rules about everything,if they're live streaming it, and
that Glasbury is now effectively.
The same as well.

Adam (39:33):
Bury is effectively a, b, C co-production.
Now, it is as much a TV eventas it is Emily Elvis's thing
in some fields in, Somerset.
they are very much involved in it.
They are the main becomemedia sponsor of it.
They may lose that, of course.
They might just say, okay,someone else can do it.
Channel four did it for a few years.
They don't have the same resourcesthat the BBC's got to, plug into it.
it.
The same newspapers who are, busycondemning the BBC for the coverage

(39:56):
of Glastonbury, all leading with ninice shots of, of, rod Stewart and
Ronnie Wood on stage together as well.
everyone gets quite a lot of content outof the, BBC being there at Glastonbury.
It's really DI mean in practicalities

Ian (40:07):
and can I just say that whoever was live streaming that.
As soon as Rod hit the first buttonnote, which was very early on at the set,
I think there's a reasonable case forpulling it just to cut away completely.
That's

Helen (40:19):
it.
I would've done it.
To be honest, the inside, Isaw that outfit with the Lacey
blouse and the boot cut jeans.
I thought, who is Rod'sstylist these days?
And I also think extraordinary.

Ian (40:27):
And you can.
So I'm wrong that I'm sailing isa coded message about boats, and
is part of a reform agenda that Ido not want to have thrust down.

Helen (40:39):
I, I, dunno, I just strongly feel there should be latitude for
artists of all descriptions to havereally weird and terrible opinions.

Adam (40:46):
Latitude is a completely different part, isn't it?
Oh, so I knew you were gonna Oh,to move it on from festivals.
This.
Has of course happened in the sameweek that, another controversy with
the BBC and this particular area, hascome to a head, which was, you will
remember the documentary that wentout earlier in the year and turned
out to have been narrated by thechild of a Hams official, which was a.

(41:06):
Enormous.
however you cut it was an absolutelyenormous editorial cock up by, by the bbc.
It really, should not have happened.
As a result of this, they paused the,broadcast of another documentary about
Gaza, which was following doctorswho were working in the war zone.
They have now, as of last week,declared that they will not be
broadcasting that one at all.

(41:27):
Not because there are anyeditorial problems with that.
They've had a good look at that.
But because, and this is the quote fromthe BBC press office, we have come to the
conclusion that broadcasting this materialrisks creating a perception of partiality
that would not meet the high standardsthat the public rightly expect of the BBC.
Now, if we're not gonna broadcastanything, that might create
a perception of partiality.

(41:48):
In a world which has the Daily Mail,the Daily Telegraph, and Rupert Murdoch
in it, they're not gonna be able tobroadcast anything at all, are they?
that is, that just seems soextraordinary to me as an excuse.
The documentary actually has now beentaken up by Channel four who has said
there are no editorial problems withit whatsoever, and it is going to be
broadcast this week on that channel.
Instead, he reminded me more thananything of, do you remember after
the enormous soul searching reviewsthat the BBC did after all of the

(42:10):
stuff about Jimmy Savill emerged?
Do you remember who?
The only person who gotsacked over that was?
It was Tony Blackburn who wasn't accusedof doing anything like Jimmy Haval had
done, but it was because he had given adifferent recollection of his encounter
with a female fan in, I think the 1960s,to the internal investigation by the BBC.
So he was the one that ended upgetting punished for it and then they

(42:30):
had to reach a settlement with him.
He came back on b bbc, onradio two fairly swiftly.
So it does seem to be this thing as well.
if you think of the, the Princess Dianainterview, Martin Beshe, and which again
was an absolute failure on so many levelsand turned out to be a huge coverup right
at the top level of the BBC, the onlyperson who got sacked over that was a.
Freelance graphic designer who had beenasked to mock up some fake documents to

(42:52):
convince Diana to give the interview.
It does just seem that they fire offin all directions, consume themselves
over these things and then, dothe wrong thing in the end of it.
So often with the BBC, the

Ian (43:01):
BBC is under enormous pressure over this, and it, as you say, it
tends to buckle in the wrong direction.
there are marches saying theBBC is violently pro-Israel.
and then the next day there's onesaying it's violently anti-Israel.
It certainly can't win andthe eye have made this point.
But, there are groups who are very keento make sure, that, BBC is anti-Israel.

(43:25):
Keeps appearing in thepapers and the times.
It had a piece by Danny Cohen, who'sa former senior executive at the BBC,
and he runs a research group that isdedicated to finding this stuff out.
So in the Times on today, we have apiece by him saying, there's chance
at Glastonbury about killing Jews.
It's not strictly true.

(43:45):
as we've tried to explain.
And then I look in the rest of the paper.
And there is no mention of the wholeweekend in which large numbers of people
died 'cause they were in queues tryingto get aid and were shot by the IDF.

Helen (43:58):
Yeah, I think you're right.
I think we could probably stand tohave a little more explanation of
why people might be unhappy with theactions of the IDF in order to explain
why people are doing that chant.
It hasn't come out of, nowhere.
There is some important contextualization.
There

Andy (44:11):
is the answer for the BB, C, just to keep someone on hand
who can be sacked at any moment.
As a kind of corporation whippingboy, the deputy head to roll.
Yes.
Yeah.
Yeah.

Adam (44:21):
I would imagine, I mean we, we are early in this at the moment.
The BBC response onlycame out this morning.
As we are speaking, I would imaginethis one is gonna run and I'd imagine
eventually someone will go, someoneprobably quite senior in the Glastonbury
coverage, who I'm sure was not monitoringlive feed from one of the smaller stages
at the time when that was going out.
I would imagine, just from my knowledgeof how these things work practically,
that most of the kind of senior staffare on the big stages and working

(44:44):
out what stuff is going to be.
Cut and looped and put on the iPlayerand used for the actual broadcasts
on BBC one and BBC two, which werecovering much and much of the weekend.
It would've been some very, juniorpeople just trying to keep a feed going.
and, probably none of them with theauthority to just say, cut the feed.
They've said something controversial, sothey will, I mean they, I'm no doubt they
will come up with procedures for this,which will then go across all live events.

(45:06):
But they did take

Helen (45:07):
it down.
That's the point.
They took it off the highlightsand they didn't rebroadcast it.
They moved

Adam (45:11):
very, quickly.
It's quite difficult to see what.
More they could havedone actually on the day.
To me,

Helen (45:15):
I'm quite impressed that actually all of these papers had anyone in
the office to be able to write thisup, given that almost everyone I know
works in journalism was at Glastonbury.

Adam (45:22):
Well, Katie Hind, who as showcased in our in hack watch in our last edition,
glad to say she personally, I was thereat the moment because of course she'd
been sent by the Daily Mail along readyfor kneecap to appear a couple of hours
later so she could be raised by whateverthey, and luckily she got a bonus.
Story early on, so

Helen (45:41):
I love that I, there I was ready to be outraged by kneecap.
Like the number of people whowould've heard this had, it just
happened organically is about allthe people who were there, plus
about a couple of hundred people.
This did not need to be de rebar intothe national consciousness for Kia Storm
to have to come out and condemn it.

Adam (45:57):
And certainly Bob villain in terms of Spotify playlists and
general, acknowledgement by the generalpopulace will be shooting up just as
kneecap did when, when, that wholeferry erupted and, I'm pretty half
of the crowd who were seeing them atGlastonbury and waving the Palestinian
flags on Saturday, might not haveeven been fans of them six months ago.

Helen (46:16):
the fear, the fact that they had Rod Stewart headlining as an avowed
reform sporter says this is the mostright wing Glastonbury for years Balance

Adam (46:22):
for you is, yeah,

Helen (46:24):
and I'm to tie all these stories together.
I'm sad that climate change has robbedus of the mud bath Glastonbury stories.
We haven't had one of those for years.
Yes, it's

Andy (46:31):
all dust baths now.
Like the sparrows.
Yeah.
I used to

Helen (46:33):
enjoy watching Kate Moss in some hunter wellies having to wade through
what, like a sort of pig farm, but

Adam (46:39):
no more.
there are big victims andsmall, that's the thing.
Would you like to finish offwith a very quick pop quiz?
Yes.

Helen (46:45):
Yes.
No.

Adam (46:46):
Okay.
Will there be a classical quizafterwards for me in the increase?
It's alright.
Some of these go back a bit.
Ian, you might be ableto get some of these.
Okay.
Question one of whom did theDaily Star Demand kick this Evil
Bastard Act on their front page?
Prodigy.
No, we going a bit earlier than that.
Was it Rod Stewart?
It wasn't Rod Stewart?
no.
The Shaman.

Helen (47:07):
Oh, good guess.
Was it Ebenezer Good?
They think it's

Adam (47:09):
about drugs.
it, it was not.
no.
It was Snoop Dogg.
Ah, who in 1994 had been arrested on a,murder charge, which was later dropped.
of all of the careers.
To go from kick this evil bastardout and demanding that he'd
be thrown outta the country toadvertising, just eat and appearing
at the Olympics closing ceremony.
You do get the slight feeling thatthe root from like national terror

(47:30):
to national treasure is a longone, but it does bend towards cozy.
Just eat adverts, doesn't it?

Ian (47:36):
and do you think the trajectory is the same for everyone?
Will it be kneecap in 20 years time, say.
Have a lovely Cup with us.
Tea.
Tea

Helen (47:46):
you can use, oh, sniffing it through his little tea.
Cozy in isz.
Balaclava.
Oh, that would

Adam (47:50):
be good.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Selling the balaclava as tea cozy.
That would be fantastic.
it might be because no mart Next issue.
Question two, who recordthe protest record?
In 1972, after bloody Sunday,give Ireland back to the Irish,
which was so controversial.
It was banned by the BBC and theindependent television authority and
accused, the band were accused of raisingfunds for the IRA at their concerts.

(48:12):
Yeah, we know this one.
This was wings.
It was.
Really

Helen (48:15):
lovely.
Paul McCarney is cozy.
Paul McCarney.

Adam (48:18):
Yeah.
Yeah.
The debut single by Wings, andon the political front again.
so US Country Band, Dixie Chicks,now known as the Chicks, in
March, 2003 were re accused ofattacking US troops blacklisted
by radio stations across the USA.
They had public crashingsheld of their CDs where people
driving tractors over and things.
they were called traitorsand, dubbed Saddam's Angels.

(48:40):
What did they actually say to, to, earnall this Appium and where did they say it?

Helen (48:47):
it was definitely, it was anti Iraq war, so they said something like,
I'd really rather do think that GeorgeW. Bush should rethink this chaps.
Actually,

Adam (48:53):
it was pretty much on that level.
Yeah, it was extraordinary.
When you actually go back toinnocuous, it was, they said.
Just to say, we do not want thiswar, we don't want this violence,
and we're ashamed that the presidentof the United States is from
Texas, where they were from, and italmost destroyed them at the time.
It was absolutely extraordinary.
They said it extraordinary, theShepherd's Bush empire as well.
So they weren't even in America.
Somehow.
This apparently made it worse.
The US media said to gooff to a foreign land.

(49:16):
Yeah.
And say this is even worse.
There you go.
End of pop quiz.
And our ultimate pop picker is of course,Mr. Ian Hislop, a man with a musical plan.

Andy (49:30):
That Wings knowledge really came into its own.
It did.

Adam (49:33):
It is taken 53 years, but we got that.

Andy (49:38):
That's it for this episode of page 94.
We will be back in aFortnite with another one.
We'll find out what controversywent down at Wimbledon and who
will have had to resign over that.
Can't wait for that.
In the interim, why not go and buy themagazine, which has all sorts of similar
stories and plenty, plenty more besides,it's available on newsstands and it's
available for [e-mail] uk.

(50:01):
it also works as a fan, or ifthe weather has turned to rain.
As an umbrella.
So thank you to Helen, Ian, and Adam.
Thank you to you for listening.
And thank you to Matt Hill, OFAN,Cordio, as always for producing.
Bye for now.