153: Scott Free

Ian, Helen, Adam and Andy discuss the new memoir by Nicola Sturgeon and its effect on Scottish politics, the risks of falling in love with ChatGPT, and the rise in British columnists phoning it in from abroad.

Episode Transcript

Andy (00:03):
Hello, and welcome to another episode of Page 94.
My name's Andrew Hunter Murray, andI'm here in the Private Eye Office with
Helen Lewis, Adam McQueen and Ian Hislop.
It's too hot.
At least two of the members of thispodcast have breached the Shorts Rubicon.
but we're going to try and cool ourselvesdown by taking ourselves north, several
hundred miles to Scotland, where NicholasSturgeon, uh, former first minister for

(00:26):
what was over eight years, last seen,I think by a lot of listeners to this
podcast, or lots of people who are even,you know, pretty up with the news, um,
being arrested before being released,uh, and having a crime scene tent erected
in her garden, all sorts of fun stuff.
She has written a new memoir, whichhas been, received as being very frank.
In fact, it's called frankly, it's,uh, had a lot of serialization, a

(00:49):
lot of hype, and it seems to be achance to appraise the whole kind of
Sturgeon project such as it was or is.
And the fact the whole of the SMPand Ian, you have a special expertise
of this 'cause you spent many yearsreceiving lots of correspondence from
readers north of the border, I believe.

Ian (01:05):
Yes.
a lot of Scottish readers wrotein over the last decade saying,
why don't you cover Scotland?
And then whenever we covered Scotland,they said, you patronizing bastards.
Why don't you leave Nicola Sturgeon alone?
Um, you have no idea.
Uh, what a great leader she is,certainly compared to yours.
Do you want Boris Johnson slashwhoever is in Theresa May she?

(01:27):
Soon.
Now we've got Nicola Sturgeon.
so the correspondence, which again,doesn't say that anymore, there
was a fairly dramatic reversal.
Um, but this, I think is, is an attemptto, certainly an attempt by, um, Nicholas
Sturgeon to rehabilitate herself.
, And again, any memoir that says franklyon it, is gonna get people to say,

(01:48):
well, really, um, and I noticed one ofthe blurbs said Alan Johnson former,
uh, labor Home Secretary, he said,um, he described the quality of the
book as unflinching honesty, and evenon the, , extracts, which I've read.
I, I feel politicians should rememberwhen talking about other politicians

(02:09):
that their standards of unflinchinghonesty aren't necessarily ours.
I remember one of the quotes, fromNicholas Sturgeon was about the SNP
finances, and she said at one point,we're not talking about the finances.
There's nothing wrong with the finances.
I mean, she was a cos signatory of theSNP finances with, with her husband

(02:31):
and with the treasurer, Colin Beatie.
Um, so, there are questions to beaddressed and whether they are, I'm.
I'm
Obviously very interested in themoney 'cause I found the camper
Van very funny and the one of thelongest police investigations ever.
Um, which the Scottishpolice were a trifle slow.
Having a look into the finances ofthe governing party running Scotland,

(02:54):
the reasons that are not fullydiscussed so far in the extract.
I mean, Helen will talk about the other,um, integrity and honesty issues, um,
in, in, in the Scottish government.
But I think, so far we've had a,a, a bit of a gush on this book.
and I'll be interestedto see where it goes.

Andy (03:11):
Can we
just remind ourselveswhat the camper Van was?

Adam (03:14):
So the camper Van was, uh, allegedly, uh, purchased with money
that was supposed to go, there wassupposed to be ring fenced, wasn't
it, for a second

Helen (03:22):
was whether or not it was a campaign vehicle, essentially
that was whether or not it was forofficial purposes only or whether
or not it was being, to use totour the Highlands and Islands, I

Adam (03:29):
But it turned out to be parked on the driveway of Peter
Mull Nichols, Sturgeon's husband andchair of the SMPs um, a mother, yeah.
Yes.
Who, and she I think was about92 and didn't drive, certainly
didn't drive large camper Van.
So it all did look

Ian (03:44):
Yeah.
And they did actually havethe battle bus, the SMP.
So this would've been a reserve
battle
bus.

Andy (03:50):
Well, often, often a super yacht will have another yacht behind
it, won't it, to carry the boringthings in the staff, you know?
So I think that all sounds

Helen (03:58):
fine.
I mean, we should say, um, PeterMorrow's still under investigation.
He appeared in court inMarch and, and to no plea.
He's got, um, talking aboutthe camp fund being impounded.
He's got legal aid.
He was just granted last month becausehis assets are frozen and he's unemployed.

Andy (04:11):
So
are the charges that are being

Helen (04:13):
He, yeah, he's, he's still care basing charges.
Against Sturgeon there isno further investigation nor
against, uh, Colin Beatie.
But yeah, she talked about that as youknow, saying it was, it was incredibly
traumatic being under investigation.
It was the worst time of her life.
And then there's a delicious littlesentence in it where she says,
nothing I am saying here reflectson anyway about Peter's situation.
You think, oh, it's a bit harsh.
You were, you weren't married to him.

(04:35):
You could probably be a bit moreeffusive in your praise for him.
They're now in the process.
They're separated in theprocess of divorcing.
But Ian, you're exactly right.
The thing always has, has been annoyingabout this all the way along is that
she would say it's very un feministto define me in terms of my husband.
And people would go, your husbandis the chief executive of the
SNP, of which you are leader.
Like this is, this is a relevant thingthat journalists might wanna talk

(04:56):
about.
But from my point of view, the thingthat's fascinating when you talk to
people in Scotland, one thing that comesup is that the s and p was too dominant
and the Scottish political culture and,and, uh, was too small and homogenous.
The s and p got kind ofinto a one party state.
But you know, the way that Hollywoodwas designed was with the proportional
vote was designed so that you'dusually have coalitions, but they

(05:16):
went through a long period wherethey were just supremely dominant.
And then all cultural organizations,you know, knew they had to be
within the favor of the s and p.
All the charities knewthat, you know, all of that.
It was just, you know,she was not to mention

Ian (05:28):
the civil service and the
police.
Yeah,
I just
throw that in.
right.

Helen (05:31):
But
she was kind of, essentially it wasKing Alex, and then it was Queen Nicola.
And I think that just made for areally unhealthy political culture in
Scotland.

Ian (05:40):
And the extracts do go into the, um, the row between Alex Salmon, who
was her mentor, and Nicola Sturgeon.
And I mean, she does say at one point,you know, ours was the most successful
partnership in Scottish politics.
And you think, well, not,not at the end, it wasn't.
No.
Um, and there is, there's a real problemin that I noticed the Scottish newspapers

(06:03):
are having a bit of a row because shesuggested now that he's dead, um, that he
leaked, uh, some of this information to anewspaper, which the newspaper has denied.
Um, and are you unflinching transparencyand honesty when you're having a go
at someone from beyond the grave?
Is,
Is
that fair?

Helen (06:21):
Oh yeah.
I mean, the reaction to ithas been very sharply divided.
Remember, not least because of the, the,the charges against Alex Salmon, which
of which he was acquitted of all of them.
That plus the gender hours.
What caused the break off of Alba?
The breakaway independence party.
That was then, and, and that took lots ofboth SMP activists, sort of middle-aged
women who had been the backbone of theSMP, walked out into Alba, which was

(06:44):
always a strange thing at the time to go,you know, go into a party led by a guy
who was then under investigation for sex
Yeah.
That was salmon's party.
That was salmon's party.
That was salmon's party, but that theywere so teed off with Nicola Sturgeon.
The way she handled the gender route,I think was what the main problem,
more than just her attitude to it,which is that she just said anyone who
disagreed with her was illegitimate.
She said at one point that anyone whodisagreed with her on self-identification

(07:05):
of gender was actually racist, whichwas a very rogue allegation to bring in.
I mean, you could see, you know,transphobic or sexist or whatever.
So they, they were basically just.
Straight up reactionaries,1950s reactionaries.
That's the only reason anyonewould disagree with her.
And that caused a hugeamount of ill feeling.
'cause people didn't just feel disagreedwith, they felt disrespected by her.
And that's why I think, as you're sayingin the reactions has been so strong.

(07:28):
It's not just that people disagreewith her, it's just they feel
that she was pious and domineeringand that that, and anyone who
disagreed with her was illegitimate.
Which first came up in the contextof it, independence, right?
The idea that anyone who didn't votes and p or didn't want independence
was talking Scotland down.
You didn't believe in Scotland enoughto believe that it could be independent.
So there was, people felt thatthey were, you know, being told

(07:49):
that their views are illegitimate.
And that, and then that same feelingported onto to gender as well.

Ian (07:54):
And
in the gender row, it wasn't, um,uh, English liberals or English
reactionaries or English transphobes.
It was Scottish women.
Um,
and so that made certainly the,the, the previous, um, set of
assumptions that anyone who criticizesNicola Sturgeon is either not
patriotically, Scottish or English,

(08:15):
uh,

Helen (08:15):
But that's the framing that they
wanted to have.
When, um, the gender recognition reformbill was passed, voted for by all of the
parties except the Scottish Conservatives,which would've brought in self id,
it was then blocked by Alistair Jack,the conservative Scottish secretary.
So that point, it was very neat forthe SMP that they were saying, you
know, reactionary old toy voting,England has once again blocked

(08:35):
Scottish enlightened progressivism.
But as you say, there's a brilliantanthology called The Women Who Wouldn't
Wish, which is by all of these activistswho did unbelievably large amounts
of unpaid work because the civilservants was just completely on board
with the entire search and agenda.
But yeah, it was always presented asbeing essentially evil Tory, old England
versus liberal enlightened Scotland.

(08:57):
And that's, that was the framing thatreally appealed to the SMP during
those years.

Ian (09:00):
And it, it became accepted in England during COVID in particular
because, any broadcast by Boris wasfollowed by a broadcast by Nicola
Sturgeon in which she looked, not like
him.
Yeah.
And, and that was plenty.

Helen (09:14):
Yeah, I, I know what you mean.
I think she did have a final renaissancewas during COVID because the feeling was
that she was taking it very seriously.
She was being sober.
And in contrast to Boris Johnson sayingin March, 2020, I'm still out there
shaking hands, you know, whateverthat said that she did, then I think
go too far the other way, whichnow people are criticizing her for.
So Scotland for example,kept schools closed longer.

(09:35):
Um, you know, she hadmore virus restrictions.
So, but then those arguments, I meanyou can see it's still in America
now are still playing on aboutexactly how quickly restrictions
should have
been
lifted.

Ian (09:43):
and
once that reputation she'd got forbeing much more marvelous than anything
that was going on in English, itmeant no criticism was acceptable.
So the Iran pieces about these
two
ferries
that
took decades to produce staggeringmillions, and then they make
HS two begin to look fast.
Um, it, it's not aspecifically English problem.

(10:05):
And there were problems in Scotland,uh, with education, um, with drugs,
with leveling up, all of which werejust buried under this assumption that
because you are not an English Tory,therefore you are a huge success.

Andy (10:18):
So this is what I wanted to ask about really, is there seems to be at the
heart of s and p government they're makingtwo big offers to the electorate, as it
were, The first of which is, we're gonnarun Scotland better than, Westminster
politicians can possibly run us.
And the second is independence.
And those both seem to have fallen short.
I mean, obviously the independencereferendum in 2014, there's been a

(10:41):
consistent attempt to say, we're gonnahave another referendum, we're going to
get an A concession from Westminster,that we will have another one of these.
And the support for independence, Ithink is about, is roughly where it has
been for some years, which is about 50%.
You know, it's pretty close either way,
but
the odds of anotherreferendum seem quite slim
at the

Helen (10:59):
John Sweeney, current first minister does not seem to be holding
it out as the kind of shining grailover the hill in the way that I
think both salmon and Sturgeon did.
And, and you are right in post'cause you remember immediately
after the affair referendums 2014and then the 2015 election, general
election, the s and p just cleans up.
It's
just a
wipe
out across Scotland.
So there was this sense thatalthough they'd lost the

(11:20):
referendum, they had won this sortof larger moral victory, I think.
But that's been eroded, you know,their power sharing agreement
with the greens collapsed.
Um, we lost, uh, hums Yusef in, you know,didn't last very long as first minister.
They're in a much more kindof humble position than they
were, and I think that's why.
Probably, I mean, I also thinkNicholas Sturgeon has wanted to
write this memoir because she's agenuine lover of literature and,

(11:42):
and books and reading like that.
I don't think that is famedfor the cameras at all.
She's one of the few peoplewho still reads literary
fiction with genuine pleasure.
But I,
I am really kind of fascinated becauseit, as Ian's saying, it's, it's.
Billing itself
was kind
of complete
transparency, but she doesn't actuallywant to concede that she was wrong in uh,
uh, in anything that I've seen her doing.

(12:02):
The gender era being really obvious,right, in that there was a rabbi
about sending a biologicallymale rapist to a woman's prison.
And she said at the time, youknow, I don't, I, you know, the
individuals a rapist when askedif they were man or a woman.
And now she sort of says, well, probably,actually, probably I got that one wrong.
And you're like, but okay, well ifyou think you did maybe get that
one
wrong,
why did you think it was completelyillegitimate for anyone to
disagree with you at the time?

(12:22):
Explain what changed your mind andwhat you'd like to say to the people
on the other side of that debate.
This is the bit, maybe this isin the book, we haven't read it.
That comes out on Thursday, butthat's what, that's the bit I'm
struggling with at the moment.

Ian (12:32):
the joke in the eyes always, all political memoirs should be called, I
Was Right and Everyone else was wrong.
And this one is being billed as, thisisn't like, um, other political memoirs
and what I've read so far, it is,
um,
uh, she was right about nearlyeverything and possibly for perfectly
good reasons wrong about variousother things and some other things
she can't talk about, uh, becausethere's still an ongoing investigation.

(12:56):
So.
Frankly, yeah.

Andy (12:59):
Ish is, is part of this just the kind of inevitable tension
between having run somewhere fornearly 20 years, which is how long
the s and p have been in office inScotland under their various leaders.
And now that's the sort of time spanover which you would expect to have
memoirs coming out saying, well, thisis what it was like when I was in,
and this is, you know, this is whyI made the decisions I did and why
they've turned out the way they have.

(13:20):
But the s and p is still in office,so it's sort of not quite a natural
time for this book to be out.
Now you'd, you'd normally have that afteran election that's gone the other way.

Ian (13:28):
And I think because this.
The police investigation into the, youknow, the hierarchy of the governments
running the country took so long and wasso delayed and, and, in the end managed
not to date, to have got very far, um,in terms of explaining what happened with
any of this, um, everyone was quiet, sothey didn't publish their own memoirs.

(13:51):
I haven't read books about whatit was like to be at the center
of, this near one party state.
How did that feel?
Where, where are those books?
Uh, they're not
there,
are they?

Helen (14:02):
I mean, David Torrance wrote biographies of both Salmon
and Sturgeon, which are very good,um, and worth reading if you're
interested in scholarship politics.
But actually, I haven't read the InsidersView in the way that you might have a.
Like an Alan Johnson or a ChrisMullen or somebody like that.
And that would be reallyfascinating to read.

Ian (14:18):
Yeah, let alone a, a Sasha
Swire, uh,

Helen (14:21):
or
a,
um,

Ian (14:23):
Mrs. Gove.
Um, and that would be interesting'cause the, it's a very small
group of people who were in power.
They were all very, veryclose to each other.
, The Alex Salmon affair, which was, um,you know, he was, , investigated then.
He was tried, and then he was cleared onall charges, though his barrister said
he, he could have been a better man.
But these were all people,they all knew really well.

(14:47):
And if you're gonna do a book called,Frankly, the idea that you didn't discuss
this all the time with your husband,who just happened to be in charge of the
party as well, and all your other friends.
This, this won't wash.
Well, maybe it is

Andy (15:01):
actually should have been called, frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn, but
the publisher said, maybe just trim that
down
a bit.
Everyone needs an editor.

Adam (15:08):
It's a bit lighter.
It reminds me of, you remember the,the flats in Bristol that Sheree
Blair purchased and um, and, and, and,and, and the excuse then, 'cause they
turned out, she'd bought them with thehelp of a, of a convicted fraudster.
And the excuse then was, well,she'd never talked to Tony about it.
And all right, in that case,it wasn't a formal thing.
You know, they, they weren't the, the,you know, the, the, the CEO and the
leader of a political party, but theyweren't married to the idea that you, you

(15:31):
buy a flat for your eldest son when hegoes away to university, but you never
mention anything to your husband at talk.
People do talk about these things ona domestic level, let alone the kind
of corporate level that they, that,that they would've had to have done

Andy (15:43):
so there's an election coming up next year.
I think it's gonna be by May, 2026.
And it's gonna be a slightlystrange one because there'll
probably be a big new Reform
presence
that there wasn't
before.
I mean, if it goes like the, theby-election they've just had, um.
Which I see which labor won, despitelots of predictions, they wouldn't.
So where does it go from here?
I mean, if support for independenceis at 50%, but support for the s and

(16:04):
p is about a third, which is where itroughly is, which is about enough for
a minority government, as you say,Helen, perhaps what the system was
designed for or built with a mine, butnot enough for a majority government.
What comes

Helen (16:17):
Well, it is built the Hollywood system to give pe
smaller parties a foothold.
So you wouldn't be at all surprised tosee Reform making a, a breakthrough there
and getting some um, some representation.
The greens are, Scottish Greens aremaybe my favorite political party
'cause they just, um, they fall outwith each other with extraordinary.
The latest thing is that one of theguys who's going for co-leader there is,

(16:38):
is now says he had to be hospitalized'cause he was bullied so badly by the
other people in the Scottish Greens.
I mean yeah, it's extraordinary.
I mean, just for very small youthink Wind farms, can anyone
get that heated about them?
You're talking to Andy.
Well, yeah.
Okay.
me.
Yeah,
Yes you will.
But yeah.
But, but, so yes, I, I, I thinkit will be very interesting.
I think the Scottish conservativesare probably gonna get squeezed

(16:59):
out by a form in the same waythat they will be probably here.
Um, and labor in Scotland haven't,you know, they're neither a strongly
unionist party, although they aretechnically unionist, nor are they.
Distinct in social terms as much from thesm MP as, you know, as, as they voted,
for example, the Gender RecognitionReform Act and stuff like that.
So Anna Swa has been trying to edgeaway from the ultra version of social

(17:20):
progressivism that the SMP had, buthe's neither, he hasn't gone full Kia
Starer like I the left me, um, either.
So it's gonna be a really unpredictableset of elections, I would say.

Ian (17:29):
But we started with saying that the SMP had become a one party
state, and that was always the
criticism of Scottish
labor,
that it
operated like a giantpersonal fiefdom up there.
So.
In a sense, I'm trying tobe more progressive here.
, We are getting to situation where itwon't be one lot who entirely, defend
and, identify that the the only narrative

(17:52):
acceptable.
Oh,

Helen (17:53):
I absolute think the best possible thing that could happen is
that, uh, that there is a, a widerspread of parties represented because,
as you say, Andy s and p support, yes,there's a, it's a really significant
chunk of Scotland, but there's also alot of right wing people in Scotland
who have not been very well representedand that that kind of might just be
bubbling under in an unpleasant way.
Um, I think it would
be
much
better
for, there's

Ian (18:12):
a lot
of
unionist people
who Yeah.
also didn't
who aren't necessarily right wing
Yeah.

Helen (18:16):
But you just

Ian (18:17):
don't believe in

Helen (18:18):
Right.
But that, but I, I think more the, theproblem that I always felt with that
is that it, it had kind of meant thatif you wanted to get a grant from the
Scottish government, you had to followa particular way of doing things, right.
If you were a charity boss and you hadto be very friendly with the SMP, that
kind of stuff, just because Scotland'spolitical culture was just smaller
than England's was more accentuated.
It's a problem everywhere.
Right.
But it was a particularly acute

(18:39):
problem in
Scotland,
I think.

Adam (18:40):
But the Scottish conservatives led by Russell Finley, exon
journalist, I
think it was
ex journalist.
No, no, no, no, no.
Ex ex son, crime correspondent.
That's just a PAC I throw in there.
They're still doing that experimentwith, uh, having newspaper people in,
in leading political parties, whichdidn't work out so brilliantly for
us, This, it's the side of the border,

Andy (19:01):
now
we come onto, uh, sectiontwo of today's show, which is
§all about the exciting news.
I'm sure everyone listening is aware, butthere's a new version of chat, GPT out.
Uh, so if you want to ask for a recipeor the capital of, uh, Mongolia or
you know, a novel maybe to be writtenso you can put your name on it.
Chat.
GPT is there and is willing to help.

(19:23):
But there is a problem,isn't there, Helen?
Because it has been launched withsomething called Reduced sco.
Fancy.

Helen (19:29):
Well, so the new model that's out is chat GBT five, and it's got, actually,
you're pretty pleased now I find thatit's got, it's got four new personalities,
which I thought matched up with thepersonalities of people on this podcast.
Guess who's who?
You ready?
Cynic Robot
listener,
A nerd.

Andy (19:45):
Uh,
well, is is it listener for me?
Obviously

Helen (19:48):
Now get your bids in

Andy (19:49):
early, I'll throw myself
on

Helen (19:51):
the
nerve.

Adam (19:51):
Nerd
Ade.
I was gonna say,

Helen (19:53):
that's
the
one
we're fighting
over

Adam (19:54):
here, isn't it?

Helen (19:55):
And
partly this is to address the factthat there was a version of the
previous, uh, iteration that cameout in April that was toos of Fantic.
And it just was like, go team.
Go girl.
You go girl.
And people would be like, youknow, I think there are voices
coming through the walls, andit'd be like, such a great point.
Definitely
believe that.
So they wound it back in and thiskind of caused, uh, you know,
outpourings of grief on reddit forumsdedicated to chat GPT people saying,

(20:18):
you've taken
away my friend.
Um, we know lots of people are usingit for life coaching, for therapy.
There is also a, a a kindof amusing trend to me
of
people using it to, to theythink come up with new theories
or revolutionize physics,
which when I was researching my book ConGenius, it is a constant motif of people
who've gone a bit funny that they thinkthey're about to revolutionize physics.

(20:40):
So Travis Kanick, formerly of Uberrevealed on a podcast recently.
I

Ian (20:44):
mean He was a driver.

Helen (20:46):
uh, CCEO and found it.
Yeah.
I, I'll go down this thread withGBT or gr, that's Elon last one,
and I'll start to get to the edgeof what's known in quantum physics.
And then I'm doing the equivalent ofvibe coding, except it's vibe physics.
I've gotten pretty damn close tosome interesting breakthroughs just
doing
that.

Andy (21:01):
Okay.

Helen (21:02):
Doesn't down, Wow, everyone.
My favorite Reddit comment on this wassomeone who replied, dude just reinvented
smoking weed with your friends in
Right?
There's

Andy (21:11):
to unpack there,

Helen (21:12):
I enjoyed,

Andy (21:13):
but basically it seems to be, you talked to chat GPT and it keeps
saying, what a masterful idea, sir. Uh,
God, you're so wise and handsome, Yeah.
And it it might be,there are all sorts of.
Arenas in which thatdoesn't matter too much.
Like if you're asking what'sthe capital of Mongolia?
Yeah.
And there are lots of other arenaswhere it might matter a bit more.

(21:35):
Like cases where, for example,people ask for romantic advice.
You know, should I breakup with my partner?
This is what I think of the matter,or should I stop taking my medication?
And, um, if it replies only withaffirmation, it gets really dangerous.
And that these people who thinkthey've invented new kinds of maths
have in, have been involved indozens, sometimes hundreds of hours

(21:56):
of conversation with this thing.
So naturally they think
it's
real.
Mm-hmm.
Because it, as in it sounds so crazy tothink, oh, I've, I've read reinvented
maths despite not having a, a high schooldegree, which is what happened to a
man
in

Helen (22:09):
Two big stories.
Yeah.
The Wall Street Journal and the New YorkTimes have both had stories which are
eerily similar, beat for beat in thatthey're people who ask it a question
about maths and then they get talkingto it, and then they kind of get lulled
into this belief that they've got.
One of them had this idea thatnumbers of fluid not static, another
one had thought he'd smashed throughcryptography, you know, and they
would just get all this kind ofconstant feedback and, and chat logs.

(22:31):
Both of these people handedover their chat logs.
The chat logs will say thingslike, you know, am I going mad?
And they'd be like, just becauseyou're asking that is proof.
How sane you are, and itwill never contradict them.
One of the guys managed to get himselfout of it by asking Gemini, which is the
Google one, like, is any of this real?
And it went, no.
Basically no.
What do you want about?
But yeah, they do have this, theyhave this problem, which is they

(22:52):
lure people into, and this isonly a small percentage of people.
Lots of people are using themperfectly normally, but for people
who are susceptible to kind offolly, duh, they can often end up
just spending hours with them andend up with the kind of psychosis.
Essentially.
The person in the Wall StreetJournal article was hospitalized
with mania twice after talkingfor hours and hours and hours.
And this is something that both openAI and Anthropic, which makes Claude

(23:14):
another model have spoken about.
They're aware of it.
They
know that there
are some people who just, you know,the same way that lots of people drink
alcohol with no problems, but for somepeople they just become problem drinkers.
Some
people become problem LLM

Adam (23:26):
users.
So it's
almost, it's like they're being groomed by

Helen (23:29):
Yeah.
Fact.

Adam (23:30):
isn't it?

Andy (23:30):
Well, Part
of the problem is that they havethe capacity to remember all of your
previous conversations with them.
That's, that's really what's goingon here is let's go back to what
I was talking about before, and
they'll say, ah, yes.
And they've, they've got,
whereas

Adam (23:44):
the
rest
of
us

Ian (23:44):
have forgotten because we were, we weren't listening.
Exactly.
And we've known people

Adam (23:48):
long
enough they

Ian (23:49):
they say,
I've
got this great idea.
You
go,
oh God,
have
you?
Yeah.

Adam (23:54):
Um,

Helen (23:55):
so they, the New York Times plugged into the models.
What, when this guy's, you know, whatwould happen if you said, well, I haven't
eaten in, in an hours now is, 'causeI've been coming up with this, I think
it's called Chronos, his new versionof, uh, maths that he come up with chat.
GBT said, you didn't burnout, you burned forward.
So now eat something hydrate.
Claude said, that's not weakness.
That's what builders do.
Now, please, for the loveof Chrono, go eat something.

Andy (24:17):
So they are telling you to
go
and
eat something
and that's

Helen (24:19):
but in a kind of, but they all speak in this weird LinkedIn
like cheer squad vocabulary.
I
find it really bizarre.

Andy (24:25):
How, how can large language models like this be expected
to protect every single user?
Many of you might, you know, not havegot into this state through chat GPT
or through any large language model.
Doesn't that seem
incredibly difficult?

Helen (24:41):
Mm, it is.
So at the moment, they have athing at the bottom, like chat.
GPT will say chat.
GPT makes mistakes.
People are calling for them to have
more reminders,
um, and for them to be less default,kind of cheering about to people.
One of the big arguments aboutwhether or not they're optimized for
engagement, OpenAI says no becauseessentially do they wanna keep you
on the hook, like a sort of telephonescammer because that's good for them?

(25:01):
Well, actually it's not really.
'cause they're losingmoney on every query.
Um, so they, they deny this quite hotly.
Other people are saying we should havekind of, you know, so people should have
to
kind
of
pass a kind of.
By the way, this isn't real testsbefore they are allowed to use
lms.

Ian (25:15):
What like, are these
traffic
lights?
or Right, How manybicycles are there here?
And if they say 300,000 when they'retwo 'cause they redefined numbers,

Helen (25:25):
then them.
Yes.
How many people have in theirbedroom come up with a new fear of
theory of physics independently?
Click all the people
who
have, and if you click any of them,you know, are not allowed to use chat.
GPT.
I think it's more like we're just gonnahave to accept that this is something, if
this technology persists, people should,in the same way that we've talked on this
podcast a lot about online radicalization,people who spend huge amounts of time on

(25:45):
Facebook or YouTube, whatever it might be.
This is just the new version of thatand it's, it's worse because we all,
the research we have on radicalizationsays it happens faster when it's.
Interactive.
And, and you'll know Andy, Iwas telling you earlier about
the ISIS magazine, dbi Yes.
Which is one of my

Adam (26:01):
favorite named after Anton.

Helen (26:07):
Yes.
Anton Anton, DBI,

Adam (26:10):
Right.
okay.
Which
would be
the

Helen (26:11):
of Yeah.
Strictly, um, Arabic reboot.
Um, but
anyway, but certainly,

Adam (26:15):
dancing.

Helen (26:17):
cartoon

Ian (26:18):
last issue.
Just checking.

Helen (26:20):
but anyway, so that was, that.
There was lots of interesting researchabout how that was, you know, that
was a recruitment tool obviously, butit was not as, uh, radicalizing as
say, internet forums where you getpeople and they'd start the lower end.
Or New York Times made a podcast calledRabbit Hole that showed you how people
end up getting, you know, they start offlooking at something fairly normal and
then it, the algorithm feeds them moreand more sort of cigarettes until they
end up in something really truly deranged.

(26:43):
And I just think this is somethingthat if you've got a friend who
seems to be spending a lot of time,if they've, for example, if they've
given the chat, what they're talking
to
a name.
That's the point at which I wouldjust have a gentle conversation
about whether or not, Yeah.
I
saw
a fantastic
conversation between Paul Graham,who's a Silicon Valley investor.
I normally quite rate and uh, EliseYow is one of the big AI doomers
saying that how terrible it wasn'ttheir images from Gaza, they couldn't

(27:04):
really work out what was true.
Both sides were putting out propagandaand if only they'd do one of these betting
prediction markets like manifold so theycould, people could bet on it or someone
would come up with a really good AI to it.
And I was like, I just wassitting in like reading Twitters
and
going

Adam (27:15):
journalists,
what?
you
wanted journalists, you've already But
that is the thing that slightly amazes me,is the number of people who are relying
on AI to give them answers that wouldactually would be perfectly accessible
from technology that we've already got.
I mean, things like Google and GoogleMaps and, and you know, or, or not
but

Ian (27:34):
not Google,
AI

Helen (27:36):
AI books, dictionaries, those
sorts
of things
Well, oh yeah.
The number of people who will lookat a pic, there was some mad story
on Twitter and they, so the replieswill just be at gr Is this true?
And people do treat it like, I thinkAI's got loads of uses as a tool,
but people treat it as an Oracle.

Adam (27:49):
Hmm.
And I think that's
the fundamental
but Google itself as a search entity,is now encouraging people to do that
because the first thing you get is theAI overview, whether you like it or
not, it's impossible to switch it off.
And that certainly in terms of themedia, is having an enormous effect
on, because no one is getting theclick-throughs anymore at all, um, in
what they're called the blue links.
No one is looking downto these things at all.
I mean, it used to be that you hadto scroll past a load of sponsored
things before you got to anything

(28:10):
remotely useful.
But now you've literally got, and it fillsmost of the screen in on, on your phone.
So that's, that's whatpeople just take as gospel.

Ian (28:16):
and Wikipedia is way down.
So having, you know, been sneeryabout Wikipedia, at least it's
quite human people and moderatorsand people Change it again.
Oh, the, the Google AI overview.
What.

Andy (28:27):
So who, Wikipedia is maybe the best, it's one of the greatest information
creations of the, of the century.
I mean, it's just extraordinary.
The the amount of expertise,the levels of verification,

Ian (28:39):
no one source should be.
Treated as an oracle, which is what

Adam (28:43):
we are coming at this as four journalists, aren't we, who are used to
doing research and, and, and kind of,um, interrogating sources and thinking
about, you know, what's reliable andwhat, what is, and, and that sort of.
Media literacy, technological literacy,I think is something that has, I
mean, the number of people who justsay, well, mentioned some story, and
I say, well, where did you read that?
Well, it was on the internet, but,but, but where on the internet?
You know, what was it in the, itwas in the Times or on the BBC or

(29:07):
was it just someone's Twitter feed?
Was that, that sort of abilityto to, to discriminate things was
already disappearing If AI is nowjust saying it and, you know, well,
GPT told me so it must be true.
I think.
um,

Ian (29:17):
I mean, that's why I've spent, you know, years, turning up in schools
and suggesting that part of any sortof, um, curriculum could be, um,
some sort of media literacy package.
Um, yes, it's great to do a civics courseand you know how many seats there are in
the American House of Representatives,but could you do a thing about what might
and might not be a, a reliable source?

(29:40):
Uh, when you get that, I thinkthat would be pretty useful.
In schools,

Andy (29:44):
it's, uh, absolutely.
And what's really interesting isseeing examples of where people have
been using large language models.
for for answers that you think theymight not given you, you'd expect
people to be really media literateand proficient in that kind of thing.
So you know, Peter Kyle, who's thescience and technology secretary,
has, has said he's been using it tofind out which podcasts to appear

(30:07):
on, which I think is interesting.
the
Swedish Prime Minister, LF Kristofferson,he has said he regularly uses chat
EPT for a second opinion aboutdecisions he's made on running the
country.
And I think you're
really
putting yourself, well, youto sort of second guess.
But then again, whose model are you using?
What are the assumptions that havegone into the LLM that you are using?

(30:27):
And if you don't know that, youmight get a different answer from
chat DPT than you do from GR or, or
one
of the
others.

Helen (30:33):
I find that that really sad though, because I just, my instinct
reaction is do people not have friends?
And actually the, no, but that'sa great good thing to say.
But actually the problem is peopledon't, people have fewer friends.
People consistently report in surveysthat they don't feel that they have
that many people they can talk to.
We have a kind of antisocialcrisis, a loneliness crisis.
And so I think people, and also if youspend a lot of time not with real people,

(30:55):
with ai, you lose the ability to dealwith the friction of actual people who
might disagree with you and not want tolisten to your theories about physics.

Andy (31:01):
What
an insightful point
Helen.
Really well
made.

Helen (31:04):
you.
But also we've got, Actually chat.
DBD doesn't come across thatdifference to your friend on WhatsApp.
Like
they

Adam (31:10):
probably nicer.
because they They'lllisten to you for ages

Helen (31:14):
ages I'm this, just ignore

Adam (31:16):
your

Ian (31:16):
and that is Helen's original point.
I mean the idea that people, I go intoecho chambers and only want to talk to
people who agree with them entirely is'cause they don't like this friction.
And the friction is where you find outwhat things might and might not be true.

Andy (31:32):
So OpenAI have acknowledged that this is a problem with their models?
I think.
I think they've said that, um, they'reaware that delusional emotional
dependency is something that it'sfailed to recognize, uh, in the past.
And, you know, I think they'retrying to work on it, but it
does just seem really difficult.
And just to bring it back to privateeye, there's a story in the latest

(31:53):
issue all about, uh, the independentPress standards organization, ipso.
They have issued a warning, uh, ontheir website saying, please do not
draft your complaint to us usingai, because if you do that, it will
come up with ipso clauses, whichdon't exist, which aren't real.
So you will be writing aninaccurate complaint about an

(32:13):
inaccuracy on a newspaper website.

Adam (32:16):
which is possibly there because the journalist has
relied on.
AI to put
it in there.
Eventually, we're just gonna reach one
where

Helen (32:21):
it's a
load
of robots

Adam (32:22):
complaining about other robots robots.
Yeah.
Yeah, it's extraordinary.
so I saw recently, um, uh, uh, someone whowas, uh, being potentially sued for libel.
They'd had a letter before action andpeople recommending online they were
trying to set up a sort of GoFundMe kindof thing to pay for potential legal fees.
Luckily, they did not take up thisadvice, but several people going, you
don't need a lawyer, just ask chatDPT to draft your response for you.

(32:43):
And I just thought, my god, the numberof people I've seen go through legal
cases, which have dragged on for years.
And yeah, some of 'em sitting inthis room dragged on for years and
years and costs millions of pounds.
You could potentially loseyour house over this stuff.
Do not trust Chatt that, for sake.

Andy (33:00):
What can we do, Helen?

Helen (33:02):
I shut
it
down.
I come back to switching offthe internet, which is just for
an, just for a couple honestly.
I actually, I was in Scotland last weekand thanks to Storm Florist, the power
on the internet went down and I didn'thave any internet reception for 24 hours.
Let me tell you, I wrotethree operas, uh, knitted.
No, actually It was, I was not.
I read, I read a book.
Do you remember them?
Andy?
Do remember Di Dimly.

(33:22):
Yeah.

Adam (33:23):
I would say that even the people who should know better are,
are going down the same route.
I mean, I've seen, uh, job adverts, well,one, one appointment at reach, PLC, who
are the newspaper B em off, who do themirror and express and the daily stuff,
and about a hundred and something, uh,local papers through the country as well.
They've just appointed a director ofnewsroom transformation, terrifying
job title, specifically to furtherdevelop our editorial AI approach.

(33:46):
Um, the mail online, or as they'renow called the Daily Mail, they
have finally changed their name.
The mail online is no more, butthey're also looking, uh, currently
advertising for an AI engineerto enhance newsroom efficiency.
So, you know, these people whoought to be the guardians of this
stuff and ought to know better, areincreasingly thinking, well, we can
do away with actual humans and, uh,and rely more and more on, uh, on AI
stuff.

(34:06):
So

Helen (34:07):
So newsroom transformation, when someone says that you've gotta
start counting the spoons, it's ne
it's just oh yeah.
that means
you're getting
exact, that.
as simple Yeah.
It's like
efficiencies.
Mm-hmm.

Andy (34:17):
I
mean, it does have lots
of
uses,
doesn't
it?

Helen (34:19):
I find AI really interesting.
It's, it's coming on really fun.
I'm not a complete like skeptic, LLMs.
Large language models are aspecific instance and they're
often what people think of.
There's lots of other interesting stuff.
It's very good, for example, promisingresults in spotting cancers very
early from scans, things like that.
The image generation has becomeincredibly much better even than
with the space of a couple of years.

(34:40):
Code.
Things like coding, definitelyit's very good at, things are
actually slightly repetitive.
So, and it's fascinating becauseeverybody involved in the industry
is, knows lots of coders, right?
So they're like, the whole ofwork is gonna be decimated.
Everything's gonna change.
Coding.
That's probably true of, it's notnecessarily true of like being Prime
Minister because there's are sort offundamentally more complicated skills.

(35:00):
it

Andy (35:00):
seem like the PM of
Sweden could,

Helen (35:02):
the
PM suite maybe could be.
Well there's an, one of our mps a LaborMP has created an AI version of himself,
which is my favorite mad MP thing
through since the Hancock
app
are already

Andy (35:12):
500 Labor

Helen (35:13):
mp.
Why
would you get another one?
But yeah, so I I think that theseare, as I say, come back to the idea
that if you treat AI as a tool, youare probably doing all right if you
treat it as the mysterious foun ofinformation inside your phone and
essentially a miniature godhead that way.
Madness lies,

Andy (35:29):
So do I not get to tell you about my new idea
for
physics?
Oh, great.
Alright.
No, please do, Andy.
Thank you.
I've, I've always wanted to know.
Right now for part three, we'regoing to come, uh, back to I'd say
more traditional media outlets.
And there's a, there's a trendwhich, uh, was featured briefly

(35:49):
in the last issue of the magazine.
And, um, it's gonna be thatof foreign correspondence.
And this is, this is not foreigncorrespondence who might move to a
country immersed themselves in its cultureand politics and history and send home
fascinating dispatches for readers.
This is people who move overseasso they can continue writing
columns about Britain based on.
Like other British media andit's, it's a rapidly growing area.

(36:14):
It's fan, it's fantastic.

Helen (36:15):
Can I put my early bid in for Lionel Shriver?
Uh, I live in Portugal becauseEngland's so rubbish, but
Portugal has its own problems.
I can't find cumin at thesupermarket, which was such a niche
That's, I really enjoyed it.
Just all the things.

Andy (36:29):
yes.
And a really common thing that a lot ofthese columnists do as Lionel Shrever
did, is to say, oh, I actually moved it.
I left the country a coupleof years ago, but I have been
writing about it since then.
Um,

Adam (36:39):
for the second
time with Lionel Shriver,I mean, she's American.
She lived in Londonfor a great many years.
Yes.
Uh, and has now moved to Portugal.
'cause she didn't like that either.
But she did make the very sensiblepoint in her piece that she
wrote for the Times recently.
She did say she does know what'sgoing on because she keeps informed.
Because I watched Spectator tv,spiked online podcasts and YouTube
appearances by Matt Goodwin,David Starkey, and Brenda O'Neill.

(37:01):
Just get out
there and
you know, you're in
Portugal.
Go
to

Helen (37:04):
beach,
Have a pastor Don.

Adam (37:07):
take

Ian (37:07):
the This is the media equivalent of a large number of expats living in Spain
for about 30 years and reading the Daily

Helen (37:15):
Yeah.

Ian (37:16):
England's rubbish.
Um, which is
why I
live here,

Helen (37:20):
which
is why I voted Brexit.
That's my favorite group of people.
The expat who voted Brexit.
Um,

Andy (37:25):
it's, but

Helen (37:25):
you are quite the connoisseur of these.

Andy (37:28):
I
am.
not
I am.
I find it interesting 'cause I thinkthere are, there are a lot of amazing
columnists writing in the UK now.
There really are.
And they, they, they do their
own.
That's True.
I
was
about to say they do their ownresearch, but that makes it sound
like they're watching YouTube videos.
And they, but they, they research,they talk to people, they're experts.
They have a, a small, you know, um,allotment of things that they write

(37:49):
about, and they, and they write about
those
really
well.

Helen (37:50):
Right.
But when we, we rounded theseup in the mag last time, I was
surprised by how many of these people

Andy (37:55):
are?
There are lots.
There are lots.
Um, so Andrew Neil, if you're listeningto this right now, you may be at
your home in the south of France.
Um,

Helen (38:03):
charming the grass, the perfume capital of province.

Andy (38:06):
Uh, Richard Littlejohn spends a lot of his time writing declining
full stuff about the UK from Florida.
Uh, there's
a, a very energetic pair of columnists,guy Elizabeth Dampier, who write
for the Telegraph, uh, from Germany.
, So one of guy's recent pieces was allabout, um, uh, protests in Epping.
Uh, near a migrant hotel.

(38:26):
And he wrote, Epping is a charming,close-knit community, not like the
largely northern post-industrialtowns, which protested last summer
after the South Port attack.
It is a leafy area.
As said, how do you know you'reat somewhere in the Rhineland?
You know, it is just
Lionel Shriver's article just saying,you know, her, her 'cause it's,
it's commonly the thing to, that's,you know, you always need ideas,
don't you, when you're a columnist.

(38:47):
So that's a column like whyI've left Hellhole Britain.
That's, that's another week that thewolf is kept away from the door of
the cupboard with no ideas in it.
Um, but, um, here's Lionel.
Why is the mild-mannered academic?
David bets now such a popular guest onBritish podcasts because bets a professor
of war in the modern world assessesthe forbiddingly high likelihood.

(39:07):
Of a British civil War.

Helen (39:09):
Is he, I listen to a lot of podcasts and
I've

Adam (39:12):
heard of him

Andy (39:13):
he's not been on any

Helen (39:14):
David Starkey's YouTube channel?
If that's be.
I know

Andy (39:17):
there's a really circular element to this where people are taking, as
gospel things, they're reading in thecomments under other people's articles.
So Lionel Schrier writes in the commentsunder articles like this one, native
Britain's owing to Leave in droves.
a lot of the time they are, but a lotof these comments may firstly be coming
from other people who've left thecountry already, or not be an entirely

(39:40):
representative subset of British opinion.
There just seems to be a, a kind ofcircular effect, not unlike that of
the large language models of peoplesaying, well, it's awful, isn't it?
Yes.
You know,

Ian (39:51):
and a number of these pieces used as a hook?
well, I mean, recent surveys havesaid that lots and lots of, um, uh,
rich people are, are leaving Britain.
And then as, as a piece in the eye
pointed
out,
this survey was produced by, bya, um, consultancy, which helps
rich
people.
Um, so it wasn't entirely reliable.

(40:13):
Yeah.

Helen (40:13):
Yes.
I'm fascinated to know how well, soIsabel Oaks shop has moved to Dubai.
I'm really interested to know how wellshe's integrated into, uh, Dubai Society.
We, For example, is she buyinglarge handbags and living in a mall?

Andy (40:23):
Well, we come to the queen of this industry, Isabel Oaks shop, um, who in
January this year wrote how I became aLabor School fee exile in Dubai, sick
of Labor's private school tax raid.
Oak Shop decided to swap the rolling hillsof the Cowa for the desert of the UAE.
I do think a lot of thesecolumnists, when they leave, they do.
Present it as some kind of noble Robin

(40:45):
hood
style thing
they're
doing
bravely camping out thedictatorship, which won a huge
election victory in last year.
Um, like it's not 10 66.
You're not
hiding in
the
fence from the Normans

Helen (40:56):
in the for, she's presumably living in a nice high
rise service apartment block.
She's not in a bedroom tent, is she?

Andy (41:01):
Yeah.
Now, to be fair, I, I think we shouldbe fair to, um, to Isabel Oak shot.
She wrote a, she wrote a piece earlierthis year, which really kicked off saying,
look, I don't want to be that person whomoves abroad and only moans about Britain.
Being permanently on the lookout formad sad things about our country is
bad for the soul and unfair on everyonewho is stuck here making the best
of it.

(41:22):
So that's a, that is a, that'sa really self aware point.
I'm just gonna give you a few ofher other, uh, recent headlines.
Britain is trapped in a dizzyingdecline, and London is, its
epicenter with this caliber of mp.
It's no wonder Britain is on the decline.
Our once civilized country deservesbetter than these filthy lawless streets.
It's no good telling us there'sless crime, the British people know

(41:44):
better.

Helen (41:46):
come back to question,
which is, how how do you, evenasking ask your taxi driver 'cause
you are not even in Britain.
I just,

Andy (41:52):
just I know.
Well, that column ended with these words.
Um, it would be easier to stopcaring than keep calling it out.
That is the attitude of somewealthy people who treat
countries like hotels, flitting

Helen (42:02):
from
one
to
another
according
to
cost,

Andy (42:04):
perceived
star
rating and level of service.
How
depressing.

Adam (42:09):
correspondence runs.

Andy (42:10):
It's
not
just what country are
you in, it's what
planet are
you on?
I cannot believe this.
I'm sorry.
I love it.
It's
the do barometer.
I know.
I'm sorry
to
ran.
As you guys know, I'm a sunny sort.
I like, I'm an optimist.
I'm a cheery guy, but it just, I, Ican't believe it should be in Dubai.
Weather's

Helen (42:27):
lovely.

Ian (42:29):
I noticed that private eye last issue had a, um, a piece
by someone called Isabelle Cheap
Shot, um, in which he complainedabout Dubai saying it was full of
foreigners and half of them were Muslimand they were Bangladeshi workers

Adam (42:44):
half finished,

Ian (42:45):
finished, um, construction sites.
I mean, it sounds awful,

Adam (42:49):
the point we were making with that hack watch piece, this
isn't just people going abroad.
It genuinely, every single one of themwas talking about Tinder Box Britain and
how it was on the verge of revolution,which a, you can't know at all.
And b, there is a point wherethat just becomes kind of
inciting a situation from abroad.
in my ideal world, it would disqualifyyou from making any comments on
anything going on in Britain at allif you have chosen to move to Dubai
or Florida or anything like that.

(43:10):
But it certainly does surelystop you to doing big state
of the Nation and YOY pieces.
He absolutely has to,
doesn't
it?

Helen (43:16):
I think one of the horrible things about journalists
in the internet environment isyou have to consciously make.
Uncommercial choices to do good work.
Right.
And hope that in some it pays offin some larger cosmic way or moral
way, or maybe the subscription way.
I mean, this is, yeah, but this is thesubscription model versus the ad funded
model, which again, to neatly tie thepodcast together, Google's going to solve
by depriving anyone of any viral traffic.

(43:38):
So those stories are gonnabecome pointless to write soon.
viral
traffic will not, will not exist inany year's time because no one will,
there's no point hopping on a trend.
It will just, people just read aboutit in the AI Google AI summary.
We are, I think the one thing that weare gonna see is, is it maybe, when is AI
Isabel Oak shot exists, will acknowledgethat actually air was a good thing after

(44:00):
all.

Andy (44:02):
Thank you all for listening to page 94.
We'll be back again in afortnight with another one.
If you've enjoyed the show, then whynot get a subscription to the magazine?
Go to private hyphen i.co.uk.
It's really good.
It's really good.
The cartoons on the, in themagazine itself are way better
than the cartoons on the podcast.
You know, I are not good.

Helen (44:21):
I've arrested for anything we've said on the podcast yet.
Not even
us there.
Exactly,

Andy (44:24):
exactly.
Uh, so private hyen night.co uk.
Get your subscription now.
Uh, until then, that's all.
Enjoy the weather and we'll seeyou in a fortnight for another one.
Thanks to you for listening andthanks as always to Matt Hill
of Rethink Cordio for producing.
Bye for now.
great.

Adam (44:38):
when you said two of us have crossed the Shorts
Rubicon,
I will not say on,
off because it soundedextremely IFF to me.

Andy (44:48):
I'm
not gonna say who's wearing shorts.
I'm only

Helen (44:50):
say yes, you
are.

Andy (44:52):
There
are four,
there
are four knees on
display.

Ian (44:56):
And neither of them are what I believe are called short,
short, this year's summer fashion.
Uh, they're, they're middling.

Adam (45:03):
Yeah.
We've not, gone full PaulMascal have we quite yet?
I

Andy (45:06):
mine from the famous five range.
Uh,

Adam (45:09):
got

Andy (45:09):
pop to Kean Island after this and bust some smugglers.

Adam (45:13):
I was gonna say

Helen (45:13):
you
are
actually
are
doesn't
it?

Andy (45:17):
I
think we all know.
I'm Tim, the
dog
leave.

Adam (45:20):
Right.