158: Live From Cheltenham

The team play a packed-out Cheltenham Literature Festival and answer the big questions: Do we owe Donald Trump an apology? How did things get so bad for Labour so fast? And will the Eye ever increase its font size? 

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
Page 94, the Private Eye Podcast.

Andy (00:03):
Hello, and welcome to another episode of page 94 this
week, coming to you live fromthe Cheltham Literature Festival.
My name's Andrew Hunter Murray, and I'mhere on stage at Cheltham with Helen
Lewis, Ian Hislop and Adam McQueen.
We are here once again to discuss.
The last mag.
The next mag.

(00:24):
We better start with the frontcover of this week's magazine, uh,
Trump's Gaza Triumph, the main, uh,slogan at the bottom of it world.
Apologizes.
He's not a naughty boy.
He's the Messiah.
Do we all owe Donald a huge, hugeapology for all the years of jokes?

Ian (00:45):
Yes.
And we're going to issueit through our lawyers.
Um, it's official.
I actually put in a cart in by Griselda.
she's one of our cartoonists,and she'd drawn a figure looking
surprisingly like me, in front ofa newspaper saying, East, peace.
And the caption was, oh, bloody Trump.
Uh, which I'm afraid summedup quite a lot of it.

(01:08):
there was also a, a, a stopped clock.
I think the speech in the Knesset was.
Quite extraordinary.

Helen (01:15):
I watched all of it too, just because I, at no point did you
know where it was gonna go next.

Ian (01:20):
That's unlike Trump.
what do you think the Americanaudience made of that?

Helen (01:25):
I mean, I went to a couple of Trump rallies last year, and I don't
think people listen to a word he says.
I think it's just, it'slike going to a kind of rock
concert or something like that.
Right.
And they would just, there would beoccasional bits that you'd do and
he'd be like, oh, like, you know,like sort of playing Freebird, but
they'd be always doing the wall, Hey.
And then you'd sort of tune out andgo and get some snacks in between.
So I imagine it was something rathersimilar in the NASA, to be honest.

Ian (01:47):
his main complaint seemed to be that everyone else had spoken for too long.
I, he literally said, yeah,good speech, but a bit long.
And they'd showered him withpraise for hours and hours.
and then he decided the best thing todo was also shower himself with praise.
Obviously everyone's sayingisn't, isn't it good?

(02:09):
You know, the first two pointsof the 20 point plan Yeah.
Have been achieved nearly, thatleaves quite a lot to go and,
and quite a lot to go wrong.

Adam (02:19):
Did you see the truth social thing he put up after his chat with,
uh, Putin and he said, this is the greataccomplishment of peace in the Middle
East, something that has been dreamed offor centuries and you think you've got.
Two and a half of the 20 points.
There's quite a long way to go.
You might not, but it is verymuch his style, isn't it?
That basically if he sayssomething, that's it and it's done.

Helen (02:38):
I mean, he's got two main qualities.
One, he is a, a bully, and two,he's completely unreasonable.
And those, it turns out, were anincredibly good match for this situation.
So the, the, the, the kind of key momentreally came when, um, Israel bomb Qatar.
And, uh, tr do you ever see that amazingclip where he just came out and for once
he was, he wasn't like camp fake angry.
He was actually angry.
He went, they've been fightingeach other for so long, I dunno

(03:00):
what the fuck they're doing.
And it was just like, kind of,it had the exact to of your dad
going, I don't get who started it.
I will stop this car.
I swear I'll turn it around.
We won't, the services, I'll,I'll drop you off there.
Um, and then there was thisextraordinary photo that came out where.
And I wish there was video of this.
He's got Benjamin Netanyahu, um, primeMinister of Israel with him in the,

(03:20):
in the Oval Office, and he's holdinglike an old rotary dial phone and he's
got Benjamin Netanyahu on the phoneto I think the Emir of Qatar going,
I'm sorry, sorry, sorry, sir. Sorry.
Country center.
I went against her and, and, and thatwas just the, that was the kind of
extraordinary moment I think thatDonald Trump felt that he had been
personally made a fool of by Israel.

Andy (03:40):
we, we are saying this is an actual achievement.
'cause I tend, I tend to take sort ofwhatever Trump says, not as non gospels.
You know, I say, well if he has, if heis claiming his properties in the Middle
East, then he definitely won't havedone but, but there does seem to have
been a bit of knocking heads together,

Helen (03:54):
provisional achievement.
Right.
And he's got the hostages home.
The ones who are still alive.
And also he has made there to bea ceasefire, which has allowed
some aid to get into Gaza.
Yeah.
Which is incredibly important.
So even if it doesn't hold that,those are some achievements.
And I think that's, that's the kind of,that's the credit I'm willing to give him.
I I'm, I'm just gonna take a wildoutside bet that he probably hasn't

(04:15):
solved the Middle East forever.
Just call me a cynic.

Adam (04:19):
Yeah, you're a cynic.
Yeah, but it doesn't matter 'causehe's onto Ukraine now that's.
That's, that's the weekend's job isjust to sort all of that out instead.

Ian (04:27):
Yeah.
He'll add that.
I mean, we did put on the cover, you'vegotta hand it to him and then another
boy say what the whole of Garza,um, which, which again may happen.
if the redevelopment into GarzaLargo actually comes off, um,
there will be this, this sort ofvisionary Middle Eastern dream.
Well, Tony Blair's gonnabe running it, hasn't he?

(04:48):
the trouble with Trumpis there is no loyalty.
So someone asked him, you know,the moment on the plane where he
appears from the toilet door, um,and never quite understood why he
has to do this and give an interview.
Head comes around and someonesaid, are you gonna put, you
know Tony Blair in charge?
And he goes, yeah, I dunno.
A lot of people don't like him.

(05:10):
Huh?
We could have told you that for free.

Andy (05:16):
Helen, I mean, you cover American Matters a great deal.
Um, and you, you, you flyback and forth quite a lot.
You see a lot of it.
So, uh, one of the things youwrote recently, um, after an
exciting experience, uh, atthe Riyad Comedy Festival.
Was that America is becomingmore Saudi, just as Saudi is
trying to become more American.

Helen (05:32):
Well, so Saudi Arabia is going through some immensely
quick process of change.
You know, it has Deis Islamizedde Haris in the last 10 years
under its elder millennial CrownPrince Mohammed bin Salman.
I'd like to say that as another,a fellow elder millennial.
Finally, we're getting to run the worldand it turns out we're quite bad at it.
Um, but it basically, so Ididn't have to cover my hair.
I didn't have to wear an A bear.
They are now having.

(05:52):
Jimmy Carr, the sign of progress.
Uh, you know what they say?
Jimmy Carr, hoer of Democracy.
Um, so, you know, and it was,it was just extraordinary that
you had And Louis CK as well.
Um, Jack Whitehall.
Jack Whitehall, yeah.
Um, obviously, basically they

Andy (06:08):
now have to suffer like we do.
That's the, you don't, at leastif you go to a Jack White hole
gig in the uk, you can drink.
I think that is an important, uh.
None of my

Helen (06:17):
friends were that sympathetic to me going up there and I was like,
I don't think they'll get tortured.
And then I said, well, I'mgoing to a Jimmy Carl gig.
So,

Andy (06:23):
but this, this point of yours about America becoming more Saudi is it Right.
Is a fascinating one.
Under Trump.

Helen (06:28):
Under Trump.
So the, my point about that is whenyou go to Saudi Arabia, now it's full
of almost empty malls, as if they'rewaiting for everybody to turn up.
There's a Jamie's Italian in Riyad.
Sort of just waiting for families to bedisappointed by overpriced pasta, right?
If you build it, they will come.

Ian (06:42):
There are other overpriced pastors are available,

Helen (06:44):
any of them.
But, uh, so at the same time, all of thoseAmerican brands are obviously piled in.
You know, Christiana Ronaldo was there.
Mr. Beast is over there.
Last weakness.
Riyad fashion festival.
Everybody's just takinga bit of that Saudi cash.
But at the same time, the other thingis happening in the other direction,
which is that America is gettingrid of the rule of law, the idea of
a kind of fair trial of your peers.
And the other thing is sendingrandom members of your family

(07:07):
to do foreign affairs work.
So there's a great line in my colleagueMike Atlantic colleague Graham Woods piece
about Jared Kushner going over there.
And the Saudi says to him the idea ofsending your unqualified son-in-law
to do quite important business.
We're okay with that over here.
We don't think that's weird.
So, you know, you're having this and,and if you talk to people who work with.
Some of those Gulf monarchies,particularly God on

Ian (07:28):
Prince Andrew was a trade in for Right,

Helen (07:30):
exactly.
Maybe just saying anapology to Prince Andrew.
Um, but they will, they will say that,that, that the, the people in the Gulf
like dealing with the Trump White House,because they don't turn up and get a
lecture about human rights abuses anymore.
It's just basically like,would you give us some money?
And in exchange youcan have a Trump tower.
Right.
It's pure foreign policy.
American foreign policy has given up.

(07:50):
Perhaps it was always a delusion,that idea of being a kind of the
world's policeman or bringinga force for liberal democracy.
And now it basically is let's,you know, let's talk business.
So Qatar, for example, is now a huge allyof the US and it's gonna be, well, not
only to give Donald Trump that claim,right, but it's, it's gonna be allowed
to build an air base on American soil.
So dearly, deeply entwinedwith Trump's business interest.

(08:13):
He's got huge cryptointerests in the Middle East.

Crowd (08:15):
Mm.

Helen (08:16):
Um, and so basically the, the person we should be doing an apology
to really is naked, corrupt capitalism.

Andy (08:23):
Ian, I'll organize that,

Helen (08:24):
put, put that on the cover next time.

Andy (08:26):
Um, we've got move on in just a, a couple of minutes to
our next section of the show.
Are there any, are there any more thoughtsthat we haven't expressed about Trump yet
that maybe you'd like to before we do?

Helen (08:37):
I look forward to the day.
I'll never have to have a thoughtabout Donald Trump ever again.

Andy (08:41):
Yeah.

Helen (08:41):
But I fear it may be for some decades to come.

Adam (08:44):
Well, Ian, is it gonna happen?
Is he gonna go for a third term?
Do you reckon, Helen, you'vespent time over there?

Helen (08:49):
I think he absolutely wants to.
The only thing that's on our side is time.
He's 79 years old.
He's a lot less healthy this term.
And I think people laugh whenI say this, but he's a lot less
coherent than he used to be.

Ian (09:01):
Yeah.

Helen (09:04):
But the thing that's fascinating to me is that JD Vance, the vice president
and everyone, everyone hates him.
So you're getting that classic second termpresident dynamic where there's an obvious
heir apparent, but also a lot of otherpeople are thinking, I could have a go.
I could have a, and I think that will be.
He has to keep talking about whetheror not he's gonna do a third term,
and there are Trump 2028 hatsthat they keep sending to Gavin

(09:26):
Newsom of California, for example.
He has to keep that as an idea tokind of keep the party together,
because at the moment, being aRepublican is incredibly simple.
You don't have to have anyparticular thoughts on policy.
It's just do you believein dear leader enough?
And that's the one thing youhave to say as a Republican and
everything else is off the table.
And of course, as soon as that breaksdown and there's some idea of a post-Trump

(09:46):
future, there are big divisions inthat party about what, what, what
they should do in terms of policy.
But at the moment it's a,it's a non policy party.

Adam (09:54):
So basically he's just holding things together with
the force of his personality.

Helen (09:57):
The shit like sort of

Adam (09:58):
Tito in Yugoslavia or something.
It's all gonna fall apart after him.

Helen (10:01):
Exactly.

Adam (10:02):
Right.

Andy (10:05):
Well look, we should, we should turn from, from Trump and
the Republicans to the uk, uh, from.
From Trump and you know, a party which hasno obvious heir, apparent, uh, to labor.

Ian (10:20):
I think it's very, very unfair on Andy Burnham
whose performance at the Laborconference was quite extraordinary
in terms of incompetence.
And if that's a bid to lead.
I was impressed.

Adam (10:34):
The thing is, he didn't, he managed not to pose with a banana, which
was David Milliman's big, big mistake.
Do you remember that one?
Yeah.
But he's weird with labor.
How you get these, he parents who justturn up and get talked up from about
three weeks always as the, as thegreat big thing that's gonna take over.
And then it just sort of fadesaway awfully, doesn't it?

Helen (10:50):
I'm gonna say something really cruel about Andy Burnham, but I had
to live through a previous Labor Partyconference where he turned up going, well,
if you don't want care you can have me.
But that.
He didn't beat Jeremy Corbin in 2015.
Right?
He had all of the advantagesof being this, you know, the
establishment center, mainstream,sensible candidate, and guess what?
He couldn't connect with peoplein the way that Jeremy Corbin

(11:11):
did, and he didn't win then.
And now he's on his third goround at having a crack at it.
I just, at some point.

Adam (11:18):
He could, he could throw his hat into the ring to lead,
um, Jeremy and Saltan and, andSarai salt's party, couldn't he?
I mean, they're not, they're notdoing a great job of it themselves.
The third co-leader.
Great.

Andy (11:27):
Um, but I, I suppose the question I wanted to ask all three
of you is really how did things getthis bad, this fast, uh, for labor?
Because the, the, the levels of.
Unpopularity across the countryare, are, they are extraordinary.
And it, it, it's, it's quite a remarkableset of figures when you look at it.
And the really interesting thing issomething, something has changed.
So if you look, uh, at everyelection since 1983 and what

(11:50):
happened afterwards to the, thepopularity of the relative parties.
Every time, um, the governingparty loses popularity.
Their, their popularity slides afew points down the scale, or, you
know, five or 10 and the, the Chiefopposition party rises up the scale.
This is the first time since, since allthose records, uh, since 1983, where both

(12:11):
labor and the conservatives have suffereda drop in popularity since the election.
Now that's obviously because of the riseof reform, but it is quite striking to
see, and LA and Labor slide has been.
Really precipitous since then.
how has it got so bad so quickly for them?

Ian (12:26):
Uh, well, I think it's, it's disappointment.
whereas often someone says, you know,there's a new conservative leader, and
you go, oh, well, But with Stawa, peoplethought this was going to be different.
And obviously if you come in witha, you know, huge majority, there
is a big burden of expectation, um,particularly after, you know, a long
period of rule by the oppositionand they disappointed really fast.

Adam (12:49):
But the really odd thing this is, isn't it, they came in saying,
everything's gonna be rubbish.
It wasn't like they were promising, kindof like a golden unicorn for everyone.
They basically said Thecountry's in a really bad state.
It's gonna be pretty disastrous.
We're gonna have toreally, really rescue it.
You're in for a really bumpy ride.
Still managed todisappoint even after that.

Ian (13:05):
Um, and I, I think, you know, a lot of people, a lot of eye readers were,
were limbing up to say, ugh, typical.
You know what, you're havinga go at the labor government.
Are you, what do you want the Tories back?
Which is what people usuallysay when there's change of
government, of private eye.
This time they just said bloody labor,and he thought then he got in yesterday.

(13:26):
Um, the speed of it was incredible,but it was, I mean, it was the
suits and the glasses and theimmediate, um, freebies, which was
sort of absolutely extraordinary.
I mean, if, if you've come in on awave of people being disillusioned
and disappointed on, you know.
Um, PPE equipment, any number of,um, sort of, uh, sleaze stories.

(13:48):
Then the first thing you do, literallythe first thing you do is give an
enormous gift wrapped cake, um, to theopposition and to the, um, uh, Tory
papers to say, you are just as bad.
And even if you aren't just as bad.
'cause the, the amountswere never quite the same.
You know, we haven't got theBaroness moan figure yet.

(14:09):
But I do, we certainly haven't gotthe money and we're never gonna, yeah.
Um.
But I think that that was amazing.
And then you went, I mean, we know this,you, you went straight into winter Fuel,
so doing exactly what the opposition,um, did, which you criticized, and then
choosing as a flagship policy, somethingthat's going to make you unpopular.

(14:30):
These, these are not forgiven easily.

Helen (14:32):
I mean, I've got a very simple explanation of this.
So Tony Blair likes to quote Lee Quayey, who's the leader of Singapore,
saying basically, if you've got 2%economic growth, everyone's happy.
If it's under 2%, everyone's unhappy.
And we have had, since the financialcrisis, basically stagnant wages,

Crowd (14:47):
right?

Helen (14:47):
At the same time, we've had an aging population, which means we just
to even stand still in terms of bothNHS provision and pension provision,
just had to find more and more money.
Out of taxes.
And so I think people justfeel like things are a grind.
They don't feel like thingsare on the, the upswing.

Crowd (15:03):
Yeah.

Helen (15:04):
Um, and I, and I don't know if it's, it's a lot more complicated than
that in that labor came in saying weare gonna get economic growth going.
And people don't feel that.
Yet.

Adam (15:13):
I think that's true because I mean, when Blair came in in 1997, it,
there was a feeling and they had moreof a feeling of purpose and mission
than this government have ever had.
But also there was a sort ofupswing in the mood of the country,
which I think was largely down toeconomic things, that the economy
was kind of improving at that point.
And I remember at that point,John Major and a lot of people
from his administration saying,well, actually it was us.
That did that, we kind ofbuilt it, it was like, yeah.
But you did do that after crashing it inblack Wednesday beforehand, didn't you?

(15:35):
I mean, you did go dang to go up again.
Yeah.
But, um, it, it's a real benefit from,you know, if you are the person that
happens to be standing when the, whenthe economy goes into an upswing,
uh, you can take the credit for it.

Helen (15:45):
The sympathetic view is that there's a terrible hangover.
From austerity having basicallyhollowed out public services.
So they need a huge level of investment,like upfront capital investment.
There's a hangover from the so-calledBoris wave of immigration in which Boris
Johnson, with his typical attention todetail just had no idea what was going on.
There's the fact that, um, you know, afterBrexit, the, the goalpost immediately

(16:07):
then moved to the convention on humanrights, and that small boats have really
not been solved as a, as a problem.
And the fact that if you areunder 45, you're paying half of
your wages out in rent like lots.
That's the situation lots of peopleare in, and lots of people are in
that situation, not just in Londonand the Southeast, but, but elsewhere
of thinking, will I be able to havethe kind of life that my parents had?

(16:28):
Um, you know, that and, and, and allof that is the kind of everything,
basically British politics just wentwrong at the financial crisis and it's
never quite dug itself out of that hole.

Andy (16:36):
I hope you're all feeling cheerful about this.
Yeah.
Um, but this, it, it's reallyinteresting because what,
what you're saying is kind of.
That this is not specifically a laborthing, it's that labor, you know,
made some promises about reform.
Lowercase, uh, are, um, in the hope ofgetting elected, got elected things.
They have not been able to restart2%, 3% economic growth a year.

(16:59):
Is this just not going to bea, an easily governed country?
Because we will keep on electing peoplewho promise they'll change things.
I, you know, I suspect reformuppercase are, uh, don't have.
The answers to solve all of theselike deep structural problems.
Do you think?
Not Andy.
No, I, I'm sorry.
I'm, you know, I'm, I know I'm, I'ma bit edgy on this podcast, but like,

Ian (17:18):
I, no, I like the idea that, that, that, um, they changed their mind on tax.
Immediately, I mean, evenbefore they've got it, usually
people wait a bit for a uturn.
But, I mean he has years to promise thathe's gonna have massive tax cuts and then
he said, oh, well maybe we won't now.

Andy (17:33):
Right?
But aren't we just becoming lessgovernable as a country because
we've got deep seater problemsthat there is an easy fix for.

Ian (17:39):
but you could say we're gonna try and fix them rather than say, what can I
think of that everyone will really hate?
Um, and it.
The collapse in Popularities.
I mean, other governments have come in andeconomically have not done very well, but
they don't have these figures, do they?

Adam (17:55):
They have made some weird decisions along the way.
I mean, as you say, the winter fuel thing.
I mean that and then trying to revise PitBennet, I mean, to come in and go, right.
Who can we unite the country byReally going after old people.
Everyone hates them.
I tell you.
Ask the disabled as well.
We, we'll target them as well.
That will that That'll work.
Yeah.

Helen (18:11):
I think if you look at the fact that the, the, this is gonna
be a deeply unpopular thing to sayin any room, but check the edge

Adam (18:16):
of the audience quickly.
Yeah, I know, right?

Helen (18:18):
Fellow under 60 brethren.
But I, I do think that actually thatthe triple lock is, is unsustainable.
And I'm just, I'm sorry.
Uh, you know, working at, I'msorry, but I think, oh, there we

Ian (18:28):
go.

Helen (18:29):
And actually, I, I don't have any problem with means testing
the winter fuel allowance either.
And the other problem isthat realistically, when
you're talking about house.
Building and, and housing costs,that is also an age related issue.
And it was the one thing that I hopedwould readjust the balance under labor.
You know, the Tories were very much, theircore vote was over 65 and they wanted to
protect pension incomes and protect, um,the green belt and all that kind of stuff.

(18:49):
And I thought, well, atleast labor will come in.
And thus.
Slightly rebalance it towards workingage people, but um, as you say, winter,
they, they ham fisted winter fuel sobadly in the middle of something else.
I think they're just totallyterrified of revisiting any of that.
Yes.
And the,

Ian (19:03):
the excuse is always offered.
I mean, it was on that and on theinheritance tax that, um, somehow the,
um, comms team had failed to communicate.
What was actually happening and youknow, I, I shouldn't have to, you
know, um, accept winter fuel allowance.
I mean, you know, this very old person.
Um, I think I should get cold.

(19:24):
Um, you should burn copies

Helen (19:26):
of the private iann from,

Ian (19:28):
well, you never know.
See how sales are.
Um.
But none of that, um, was explainedand the means testing wasn't explained.
And the, and the benefitreform was not explained.
And everyone says, well, it's,it's not, it's not the government's
fault, it's their advisors.
It's their PR people.
And in the end, you have to stopmaking excuses for PR people and

(19:48):
advisors and senior figures and allthese people and just say, well,
maybe the leadership is a bit useless.
Yeah.
Um, and they need to, um.
Explain policies, give people avision, give people a narrative, give
people a reason to vote for them,and those are not negligible skills.

Andy (20:04):
Yeah, I mean, Stan does have an identity, you know,
he is a human rights lawyer.
Like he's, he's, he's a football fan.
I dunno if you know what his dad didfor a living, but he comes from a
relatively underprivileged background.
He certainly wasn't sent toDulwich College like Nigel Farage.
You know, there is, there is astory there, but it's one that
he's, he's always been slightlyresistant and reluctant to tell.
Yeah.
Um, did something amazinglyfunny happen in the subtitles?

(20:26):
Right.
All right.
We have a. I thought itgot more than it deserved.
Um,

Adam (20:32):
but like someone could just clip that and send it into, we have a
funny cuttings thing and get a tenor.
So, uh,

Andy (20:36):
but you know, Starr hasn't made a load of money flogging
gold services like Nigel Farage.
I mean, there there is a, there is astory that is, that he is able to tell
but is seeming resistant to doing so.
I do think also they are operating inan extremely hostile media environment,
which, which, you know, is new.
No, I mean, well, sorry it's notnew for stama or for labor, but

(20:57):
it is, you know, it's nuisance.
The election.

Ian (20:59):
Yeah.

Andy (21:00):
I mean the rear guard action fought by the telegraph, the mail,
the express was, was extraordinary.

Helen (21:04):
Adam, you write about it a lot and in street of shame, right,
that there is a, there is a phx therethat the left has never quite been
able to recreate in media terms.
Well, what

Adam (21:12):
I'm really enjoying at the moment is the bizarre alliances
that are going on, particularly,you know, this, this story endless.
Really, really targeting MorganMcSweeney, uh, of off the back of
this book, the Fraud by Paul Holden.
Um, and it's been pushed largely by themale and the Telegraph, but Paul Holden
is, is about as Corbe Knight as they come.
You know, he's, he, he works withAndrew Feinstein, who was the guy that

(21:32):
stood against K Dharma in Hogan and St.
Pancreas.
I mean, this really is amazing case ofmy, your enemy's enemy is your friend.
These are, these are sort of, not,not natural bedfellows are they,
but they're, they're coming atit from, from both, both sides.
. Does anyone under fully understandthe Jonathan Powell and China story?

Helen (21:49):
No.

Adam (21:50):
Have we got anyone in from GCHQ tonight?
That's good.
No one put their hands up.
You would've been sacked.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I'm a bit lost in the D, but again,this seems like, I mean, of all
the things I'm not think of adviceto Kenny Bain off, but if you're
gonna target starer on one thing.
I would say that he's probablyquite hot on the proper process

(22:12):
of criminal prosecutions,just as an ex-head of the CPS.
Yeah, that's probably somethinghe kind of knows the details on.

Helen (22:17):
Yeah.

Adam (22:18):
and he's

Ian (22:18):
not very convincing on it.

Adam (22:20):
He's really convincing on anything.
That's kind of what we've beentalking about the last 10 minutes.
Isn't he genuine?

Helen (22:23):
I mean, genuinely, genuinely loves Arsenal, and if you get him
to talk to about it, he'd just belike, yeah, I, I really like Arsenal.
It's really great too.
IJ he just cannot conveyeven emotion that, you know,
behind the scenes is genuine.

Ian (22:35):
But you, you people want to believe that, you know,
Kirstan was absolutely straight.
And, um, you know, his experienceas a lawyer means he really does
understand the law and support the law.
And then we end up in a situationwith this prosecution where the
Deputy National Security Advisoris somehow seriously to blame.
But the actual national securityadvisor, Jonathan Powell, had no idea.
Oh, goodness knows.

(22:57):
I mean, he's not there tosupervise his de, you know,
his deputy for goodness sake.
Um, and you think, well, why doesn't heknow he's the National Security Advisor?
Presumably what we think of China is.
It's his business.
I mean, he's obviously, he's, he'snot elected, um, and he's been
appointed, but that is still his job.

Helen (23:15):
But it's all built on this giant lie, isn't it?
Which is the fact that actually lotsof people, if you talk to people in
Whitehall and civil service, theydo regard China as a huge threat.
They know it's always trying to hack us.
They know it's always trying tosend suspiciously attractive ladies
to lib down party conference.
I genuinely think that happened.
Um, you know, but

Ian (23:34):
okay, they're not that good.
It was the lib down conference.
Yeah.

Helen (23:37):
Gotta spread Jeanette wide.
Um, but at the same time, they also knowthat we are immensely are supply chain.

Andy (23:44):
Uh, did come up as

Helen (23:46):
Jeanette Wide.

Andy (23:47):
Jeanette,

Helen (23:48):
that is the name of one of the Chinese spies.
Who?
Yeah.
Come on

Andy (23:53):
guys.
There's not, I'm sorry.
I haven't a clue.
Um,

Helen (23:57):
anyway, but that's the fundamental hypocrisy is that everybody
acknowledges that China is tryingto do, not a hot war against us, but
certainly hostile actions against.
British business is the British state,but at the same time, we really need
them and we'd quite like them, you know,to be on good trade terms with 'em.
So we have to very delicately walkthat tightrope and that to me is in
all the back and forth, just exposingthe fact that the government can't

(24:20):
maintain a consistent position on China.
'cause it's like, pleasedon't make us be mean to them.
We like iPhones.

Adam (24:26):
The other thing that's really struck me about that case is kind of how
low rent the stuff they must have beengetting was because it was like awful.
Now we are going to infiltrate TomTogan hat's office and see what Tommy
Tugs is really thinking about and one

Helen (24:37):
of the

Adam (24:37):
misinformation that we're trying

Helen (24:38):
to extract.
Sorry, can I just pause there?
Because every time you've been trying toget the nickname Tommy Tugs to happen,

Adam (24:44):
I'm going to

Helen (24:44):
get it there and every time has been ruthlessly cut
out, but I admire your commitment

Adam (24:49):
every fortnight.
No, but one of the pieces of informationthey were apparently trying to pick
up from these, these, these twoguys was um, whether Jeremy Hunt
was going to go all the way in theconservative leadership contest.
You think just read a newspaper?
I mean,

Helen (25:01):
there's pages and pages about this.
Yes.
Why not pick up afortnightly News magazine?
It's not James Bond

Adam (25:07):
versus

Andy (25:08):
Blofeld, is it?
No.
So are we, are we just doomed tokeep on electing people, being
disappointed and then electing moredisruptive actors, if I can put it

Adam (25:17):
that way?
Basically you're saying, is Nigelgonna win the next election, aren't you

Ian (25:21):
Sure?

Adam (25:22):
Yeah.

Ian (25:23):
And would he disappoint, do you think?

Adam (25:25):
No.
I mean,

Ian (25:27):
do you think the depth of talent in the reform party
would, would, would maybe.
Put on a better performance.
I mean, local councils, it's going well.
Yeah.
I mean, you've, I mean, nearly,well, some of them haven't resigned,

Andy (25:42):
but you've had to, you've had to basically hive off a separate bit
of the rotten Boroughs page solely forthe amazing performances that Reform
councilors have been turning in.

Ian (25:50):
Yes.
And um, you know, a lot of peoplesay, well, if you give them more
publicity, they'll do even better.
Um, and I say, well, but.
Am I not meant to cover the factthat, um, when confronted by, what's
your policy on special needs andpotholes, it's Stop the boats.
Um, which again, you can sort of make acase, but eventually they've gotta run

(26:12):
something and they've gotta run somethingless badly than the previous lot.
which again, I mean, Ithink that will be the test.
So are you saying ifpeople vote for reform.
Will we be disappointed?
My guess is yes.

Andy (26:32):
now we, we are at a literature festival and private eye has
a, a strong literary tradition.
Dating all the way back to 1961.
So I think, uh, it's time to hand overfor one of page 90 vols legendary quizzes.
Uh, and Adam, you are going to berunning this one, I believe, the
grand private eye literary quiz.

Adam (26:50):
Yes, indeed.
So.
Which poet Laureate began aprivate eye column, which is
still running to this day.

Andy (26:58):
I'll just have a wrong guest For a bit of sport, I'll say Robert Sie in 1819.
Very

Helen (27:02):
nice.
Very nice.

Andy (27:03):
Yep.
Dryden,

Ian (27:06):
uh, I remember him in the office.
Um, that's not true.
It was John Beman who startedthe um, Pelosi column.

Adam (27:14):
Sorry, I'm just enjoying the fact Kimmy Badden office was saying last week.
Oh, English agrees.
They're no use for anything.
They are brilliant for showing off thethings you remember of 20 years later.
It was John Beman, theNooks and Corners column.
Yes, indeed.
The architecture column,which is still going.

Ian (27:26):
Yes.
And he handed over to the verybrilliant Gavin Stamp, it's
now run by, um, Jane McKenzie.
Yes,

Adam (27:33):
indeed.

Ian (27:34):
And, it's almost a sort of a cranny in the magazine itself.
some people think it's thebest thing in, in the magazine.
I absolutely love it.
Some people say, oh, whyyou always wanging on about
buildings that are falling down?
and the answer is becauseit'd be nice if they didn't.
Um, and also that theyweren't set on fire.
uh, no, no, no.
Go on fire.
Go on the phrase Fire.

(27:54):
Yes,

Adam (27:55):
strangely went on fire.
My

Helen (27:57):
highly insured pub has gone on fire.

Andy (28:01):
Yeah, that page is, it's a funny mix of charming
heritage and blatant Aon crook.
Yeah, it's a really odd mix.
Crooks and nooks.

Helen (28:10):
Look, the people from the Crooked House Pub have, are they,
aren't they gonna have to put thatback to the way it was before it went?
Is very funny.
Fire.

Adam (28:15):
Very, they have, yes.
And there's also a pub inLondon where they did that.
They, they, they had to put it backexactly with the 1920s frontage
and all the tiling and everything.
One of those victories for Janeand the Nooks and Corners column.
Absolutely right.
Question number two from 19.
77 to 1979, the eye carried very unlikely.
This a gardening column writtenon the pseudonym of Rose Blight.
But who was the real author?
Helen, I'm gonna throwthat one in your direction.

Helen (28:37):
I've got this.
My brain is delivering like JulianBarnes or someone like that.

Ian (28:41):
No, no.
Noian.
Oh, you

Helen (28:45):
think, uh, five James, Jermaine Gr Jermaine Greer.
J

Adam (28:49):
Jermaine Jermaine Greer Indeed.
Yes.
Seven years after the female Euch.
That was what she was doing.
Uh, the Revolting Garden, uh, itwas called, uh, she was recruited
by Richard Ingrams after theyappeared on the news quiz together.
Uh, and God, that was must,must a big point that.
She resigned after he woundher up by, uh, threatening to
turn it into a cooking column.
Didn't go down so well.
She's gone off.
Did he basically go and make

Helen (29:10):
me a sandwich?
Jermaine Greer?
Yes.
Pretty much

Adam (29:12):
that, yeah.
I see where that trolling happened.
Yeah.
So she

Andy (29:14):
wrote, she wrote a gardening sort of like gardening.
What was the gardening element?
It was called the

Adam (29:18):
Revolting Garden.
I mean, basically it was, it wassaying, um, tear everything out of
your garden and concrete over it.
So it wasn't the traditionalgardening column.
But she's

Helen (29:26):
retired to run a, a wood in Australia, so right.
Quite

Andy (29:29):
on brand.
Leave your bush spray concrete over it.

Helen (29:32):
Andy, that's gonna be on the subtitles if you're not careful.

Andy (29:36):
No.
There we go.
Got away

Ian (29:38):
without it.

Helen (29:39):
Concrete over your bush.
That said,

Ian (29:42):
thank you everyone.
I think I should be employingthe subtitle, right?
Or is this, is this just ai?

Crowd (29:49):
Yeah.

Ian (29:49):
Yeah.

Adam (29:50):
I can't spell AI properly, so possibly not

Crowd (29:54):
boy has done,

Adam (29:55):
see, that's learning, that's machine learning.
That is
question number three.
The I resident obituary, EJThib went on tour in the 1970s
in the person of long serving.
I joke writer Barry Fantoni, whosadly died earlier this year.
Uh, which real poet didhe share the bill with?

(30:16):
Larkin, I can see it now.

Helen (30:18):
Lads on tour.
LA's on, they're shacklesthem twosome free.

Adam (30:22):
Larkin

Helen (30:24):
Simon Armitage.

Ian (30:26):
No.
Was it his beat poets?
Was it Horrowitz?
It wasn't

Adam (30:30):
Horrowitz, but you're in the right area.
Alan Ginsburg.
Ginsburg.
Not that would've been interestingin the travel lodge in Chippenham.
Okay, we're just namingpoets now, shall I tell you?
Yeah.
John was Roger McGoughpresidential Poetry please.
And beat poet and member of the Scaffold.
Yes.
Okay.
SU's Corner, which novelist onthe i's 50th birthday in 2011
was Crowned Britain's biggestsued with, at that time a record.
41 entries, Eni SU's Corner, andan entire corner also devoted

(30:55):
to himself alone in 1996.

Ian (30:58):
I was gonna say Jeffrey Chard.
But then pseudo intellectual'snot really his thing.
Pseudo does John Benjamin wanna

Helen (31:04):
jump in on this one at all?
Any ideas?
Jay McInerney featured a lot.
Oh, will Self.
That's a good guest.
Thank you.

Adam (31:11):
Well done.
Yes, will sell indeed this audience.
Brilliant.
Fantastic.
Have you ever re rejected a suitfor the corner 'cause you felt
it was too profound and moving?
Ian?
Um.
No

Ian (31:27):
moving on.
No, that's uh, that'swhat I was just thinking.
I think I did reject when I was astudent will self's cartoons Really?
Which he tried to get into.
so it's a student magazine.
I was then running and I feelsomehow he's always resented that,

Helen (31:42):
yes, it's your fault.
He became a novelist

Adam (31:45):
if you just encouraged.
He could have been just drawingcartoons for us all this time.
Yeah.
Instead went off and became a sued.
Yep.
Another one missed.

Ian (31:52):
Uh,

Adam (31:53):
uh, best known for her long running romantic series, air of Sorrows,
charting the Love Life of our present.
Monarch Dame Sylvie Cris Firstwork published in the Eye,
charted another Royal Romance.
Who's and which was it called?
What was it called?

Ian (32:05):
It was called Love in the Saddle.
Very good.
And it was about Princess Anne.

Adam (32:10):
Princess Anne and Captain Mark Phillips.
Yes.
Very good indeed.
Yeah.

Ian (32:14):
Um, again, this was Barry Fanna who came up with this stuff.
, they did these.
Accounts of the royal family asthough they were bad romantic novels,
which is a very good approach.
and for years it was Dame SylvieKrinn, and now it's Dame Head of
Shoulders, who's, um, who's takenon the responsibility of covering.
she now does the King of Troubles.

(32:35):
and they, they're stories about PrinceCharles, about Queen Camilla, about his.
Der Barry camp.
Um, so Alan Fitz tightly who, um,is, is the, the last of the Fitz,
tightly as, as it as it happens.
Um, who, uh,

(32:56):
who develops this rich home life?
Uh, his friend, the Vice Admiraland he big Abba fans, um, uh, try
and direct, the Monarch into, um.
Uh, ways of seeing theworld that are less gloomy.
and it features obviously Prince Harry andMeghan and, and William and the others.
And it, it's, it, it's a wayof, of unserious doing the royal

(33:18):
family, which I, I absolutely love.
I mean, uh, writing Sylvie CRI isincredibly easy 'cause it's just,
I'm sure you could all do it.
Don't, don't, don't leton, um, uh, because, Royal
correspondence are so serious.
they interpret pictures and smalldetails and tiny bits of, gossip

(33:40):
and take it very, very earnestly.
And it's, it's a pleasure to think.
It's probably, probablynot what this is about.
Mm. yeah, the first one was Princess Anne.
what was the one after that?

Adam (33:51):
I'm looking.
Oh, there were all sorts.
Andre Previn, Anna Ford, EstherRanson, I mean, we mustn't forget.
Um, never too old either.
The Rupert Murdoch story.

Ian (33:58):
Yes.

Adam (33:59):
Very, very long running.
How's, is he?

Ian (34:02):
Yes.
Um, it is just funny theidea of him going on and on.
Um, and.
his latest wife is a, is a sortof life scientist and biologist
who's looking for eternal life.
Um, I'm not quite sure that'swhat her research says, but I
think that's what it's all about.
and because succession.

(34:23):
Which, um, I'm sure you watched, wasso, um, strongly linked, um, to keep the
lawyers happy, um, to Rupert's own life.
We decided it would be funny if Ruperthad no idea that it wasn't his own life.
So when he lists his children, it's,it's Lachlan, it's Liz, uh, it's

(34:44):
Kendall Shiv, Kendall Shiv, um, and Tom.
So, um.
Again, it's a, a way of nottaking seriously, things that the
papers take very, very seriously.
, And the Murdoch trial, um, in whichhe tried to, , essentially disown
half of his, well not half of hischildren, most of his children bar

(35:06):
one 'cause they weren't right wingenough, um, to take over the company.
You'd find difficult that to make up.
Um, and then that failed.
So he's paid everyone off.
and yet he's still

Adam (35:17):
there.
And we, as I, I keep saying hismum lived to 106, so he is got
a good decade and a couple ofwives left in him, me out I think.

Ian (35:25):
But I did have a sort of Trump moment of, of when he decided to take on Trump.
You suddenly thought, well,God, isn't Murdoch great?

Adam (35:34):
This is what I mean about your enemy's enemy being your friend, isn't it?
Unlikely Alliance?
Will you, um, will you miss him?
It.
Well, he'll outlive me.
One final literary question, Ian.
Um, we've talked about, uh, DameSeal, we've talked about three.
Um, is there any sort of book, uh,in which perhaps some sort of yearly
collection possibly available inall good bookshops and in a signing

(35:58):
tent directly after this event?
Uh, in which people couldread some examples of this,
this magnificent literature?
Oh, you've got me

Ian (36:04):
there.
Um, oh yes.
I think I do know what it is.
It's, um, it's the private DiAnn,
hey, um, which, uh, is a selectionof all the best jokes of the year.
it won't surprise you thatK Stama is on the cover.
Charming look alike, mean alikewith the figure of sadness.

(36:25):
Um, and, um, it's, uh, yeah,roundup of, of the years jokes.
Everything's in there.
And it's all writtenby, uh, private ai, um,
which is, uh, a new technology that we'vedeveloped, uh, that involves human beings.
meeting together in rooms and writing.

(36:46):
it's probably won't catchon and it may be a bit late.
it has been a, a pretty crazyyear, trying to keep up with the
news cycle, partly 'cause Trump.
Draws, um, the atmosphere out ofold news and makes it about himself,
but partly because there's just beenso much, um, going on elsewhere.
And so it's got photo bubbles,it's got, um, thread pieces.

(37:07):
It's got my favorite joke on the cover.
Meghan launches a Netflix cookery show.
Lovely picture voice offsaying, what are you making?
And she's saying, money.

Adam (37:21):
And it's even got the joke by Andy that a man was arrested
for holding at a, a demonstration.
So, um, mind how you go with your copies?
Yeah.
Um, yes.
Got any more, Andy?
That

Andy (37:32):
can get our audience in jail for the evening.
I'm not trying to get anyone arrested.
Well, actually I suppose Iam, but not, not read us.
Um, we should, we should come to thequestions from the audience because
we've had loads in, um, so, let's startwith, uh, one from Jasper, noting the
demographic of the audience here tonight.
Are you confident that you are growingyour younger audience to ensure
the magazine's long-term future?

(37:54):
There's one there.
I can see them.
It's all down to you, sir. Yeah.

Ian (38:00):
Well, as, as I always say, um, I quote the example of, um, In communist
Russia, Stalin going in, uh, to achurch which is full of old people.
And he said, ha ha, what willyou do when the old people die?
And the priest said, therewill be more old people.
Um, and when people want tocome to what the eye has to

(38:24):
offer, they're very welcome.

Andy (38:26):
And also the readership are, are younger than you would expect, I think.
Andy.
That's

Adam (38:29):
just that you are getting older.
Oh

Andy (38:31):
no.
Don't it to seem really oldwhen you first joined, didn't.
Right.
Let's have, let's have a, a younger.
Brightly a question.
This one comes from Clive Field, 76years have you considered increasing
the font size of your publication?

Crowd (38:45):
No.

Andy (38:49):
Thank you, Clive.
I think we, we have done Al, wehave done already, haven't we?

Ian (38:53):
And the answer to this is we've done the font size twice, we've increased it.
Um, we've also, I hope you've noticed,run a series of ads for, um, magnifying
glasses, reading lights, Specsavers,
so the, the answer is.
We do try and make it readable,but I think there is partly
people find, as all the surveysshow just reading more difficult.

(39:18):
um, but I don't think onthe whole, our readers do.
And if we, if we say, look, there's,there's a whole page of type here.
You might have to read it.
I don't think they're gonna be scared.
And certainly not at theCheltenham Literary Festival.
Yeah.
Um, I do hope, you know, theattention span will be more
than, more than 800 words.
Well,

Andy (39:37):
can we come on then too?
I really like this question.
Uh, no name from this question.
How does private eye remain relevant ina post-truth world where many get news
from TikTok and similar non-New outlets?
Is that.
Something you consider,something you worry about?
What?
TikTok?
Yeah.

Ian (39:52):
Yeah.
I just spent a lot of time on there.

Adam (39:55):
there is a weird function that the is has kind of taken on in that
has become a slight correction center.
I mean, certainly the street of shamepages are just for pointing out what
bollocks that story was in the Telegraphlast week and that one in the mail and
what the story really is behind that.
Yeah.
So there is a. It's an attemptto become kind of a reliable

Ian (40:11):
source

Adam (40:11):
of

Ian (40:11):
news at the end of it, isn't it?
And I think that is in itself a service.
It's just we run an awful lot about, um,uh, social media and AB about how, um,
Twitter works and about AI works and.
I mean, I love the story.
Um, in the last issue of, of, um,the video that Genrich had made, sort
of wandering around, um, supposedlyin Hansworth where he wasn't, um,

(40:34):
saying, I can't see a white face.
And you look at the videoand they, they're behind him.
There's three people over there.

Helen (40:43):
There's a lot of that isn't there about saying you have to do video, you
have to do this, they have to do that.
You have to be on social media.
And actually I think about 10 yearsago, people kind of said, I can't
believe the eye not going fullbore onto this internet thing.
We've always heard so much about.
No, a lot

Adam (40:55):
of people are saying that to crack young people, you have to start
doing podcasts and things, aren't they?
I mean, mad.

Helen (41:00):
But I think that actually weirdly, the internet is now a kind of, it's like
tam's water have taken it over, basically.
Right?
Yeah.

Crowd (41:07):
It's just, oh

Helen (41:08):
shit.

Andy (41:12):
Superb.

Helen (41:13):
No, but it's true.
Whereas you, if you open up private eye,then there is, that has been written by
actual journalists and, and checked andsubbed by other actual journalists and
you know, most of it, you could probablybe fairly assured, is actually not just.
Some hallucination of some AI bar and,and that's what I think is a slightly,
in a way, I also think we're heading forthis kind of post-apocalyptic future where

(41:35):
people can't pass around copies of sortof underground magazines to each other.
'cause it'll be the onlykind of place where you can
actually find things that have.
Interesting and true.
Stop edited.
Yeah, stop edited.
Yeah.
We

Adam (41:44):
were discussing in the office last week when we were putting
the pages together, weren't we?
And we're saying, what, what would,how could we kind of like ape being
more like a newspaper website now?
And we thought big post-it notes kindof like all over the pages with really
sticky glue on that you really have tokind of pull off to actually get it.
Anything you want us.
See that give much your money.
The, the, the Marrowwebsite, um, uh, experience.

Helen (42:03):
Yeah.
You turn the page and every, so thepage just goes blank and reloads.
Yeah.
That would be a good experience.
We should bring to the magazines.
My magazines crashed.

Andy (42:09):
Right.
We're entering entry time.
So I'm gonna, I'm gonna tryand whip through a few more.
Um, if, and it is a big, if as a panel,you were elected as the next government.
What do we mean big?
If Yes, um, what would be yourfirst acts to improve our country?
Resign.
Great.
Right on we go.
Uh, how can we expresssupport for Palestine without

(42:33):
being called anti-Semitic?
actually someone, someone did getrecently arrested for a, uh, they had a
T-shirt that said plaster scene action.
And it was about,

Helen (42:42):
was it morph?
Was it little morph?
It was morph.
It was a pro

Andy (42:43):
morph thing.
Yeah.
They were briefly, they were brieflydetained and then the police officer
came over and said, I'm incrediblyembarrassed and you are free to go.

Ian (42:52):
I, yes, I mean, I think being.
Being slightly careful about the wording.
If you are an Optim student at thebeginning of your life, probably
not a good idea to be filmed.
Chanting about putting peoplein the ground, put design in

Helen (43:04):
the ground.
Yeah.
I think that's the, yeah.
When they're

Ian (43:05):
trying to get people outta the ground.
I mean, just a certain amount of, of care.
Yeah.

Andy (43:11):
Uh, what intractable problem would you advise Farage to address in
order to win his Nobel Peace Prize?
When he inevitably becomesour glorious leader?
Uh, the crypto?
Yeah.
Well, we know he's got a direct lineto Russia, so maybe he'll be able
to sort something out over there.

Helen (43:27):
start him small on one of those kind of lay landi disputes you get in the
daily mail, work up to something bigger.

Andy (43:34):
Brilliant.
Um, oh, this is, how do youchoose your contributors and
do you get MI five to vet them?

Helen (43:43):
Yes.
Yes, I've heard that.

Ian (43:45):
We've all had the tap on the shoulder.
Um, yeah, no, I, we don't on the wholethough, I mean, I have had some ex
experience with the security forces.
I dunno if you remember, um, anyof you when, uh, the plans for
Desert Storm, um, were stolen.
They were left in a Volvo, um, by acivil servant outside the showroom.

(44:06):
And, uh, I had the admiralwho was in charge of the de
notice committee rang me up.
I mean, this is securityat a very high level.
And he said to me, is that Ian?
His Lo?
I said, yeah.
And he said, you know theseplans for Desert Storm?
I said, yeah.
And he said, you haven't got 'em.
Old boy have you.

(44:28):
Right.
We're gonna stop there.
Thank you so.

Andy (44:30):
So

Ian (44:30):
much for coming.

Andy (44:31):
Thank you for being here.
Thank we.
Hope we've enjoyed the evening.
Ladies, give it up for the one team from.