Warren Rustand is more than a seasoned entrepreneur and former White House Appointments Secretary — he’s a mentor to leaders across the globe, a passionate advocate for intentional living, and someone who’s spent decades helping others uncover their best selves. In Episode 228 of Paper Napkin Wisdom, Warren shares the essence of leadership in one quiet, powerful quote:
"When you ask someone a commitment question, don't speak until you are given an answer."
It’s a lesson in restraint, respect, and trust. And it perfectly embodies the kind of leader Warren is — someone who believes that real transformation happens not in what we say, but in how we listen and how we wait.
The Moment of Commitment Is Sacred
Warren’s paper napkin insight reminds us that commitment is a turning point. Whether in business, relationships, or leadership, the moment we ask someone to commit to something is loaded with meaning. And yet, too often we sabotage it by rushing in to clarify, soften, or over-explain.
Warren explains, “When you ask someone a commitment question, and you fill the space with more words, you take away their opportunity to reflect and respond.” The pause, he says, is where transformation lives. It’s not silence — it’s<
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Govindh Jayaraman (00:03):
Warren Rustand, welcome back to paper napkin wisdom. I am excited to see you here today.
WarrenRustand (00:09):
Thank you very much, Govin. I appreciate the invitation to join with you in a fun discussion. I look forward to our conversation, and I appreciate all you're doing to help people.
Govindh Jayaraman (00:18):
Yeah. Well, I'm just following in the, in, the, in the path that you have blazed for us all.
for those of you who don't know Juan Rustan has among his many missions in life to inspire and lead and impact the lives of millions of people, and he's chosen to do that through other leaders. I've been lucky enough to be in the classrooms that he's presided over and learned from the master himself. Many times it has been a privilege to apply some of the learnings and hopefully
(00:51):
carry on the work that you do everywhere. So thank you for that. Thank you for the inspiration.
WarrenRustand (00:56):
Thank you.
Govindh Jayaraman (00:57):
So you shared a fascinating napkin with me today, and it says, when you ask someone a commitment question, don't speak until you are given an answer.
Why did you share that with me?
WarrenRustand (01:13):
Oh, I think sometimes we overly complicate our lives by talking too much.
and when we're in a position to ask someone a commitment question whether you're in sales or you're proposing to someone to ask someone to be your spouse.
Be certain to ask that serious commitment question and then remain silent until someone answers.
(01:38):
All too often as we ask the commitment question in our own nervousness or excitement, we start talking again.
and we blur or obscure the really specific question that we've just asked.
And so I've always felt. And I learned early in life. And when we ask that commitment question, will you accept the job?
(01:59):
Will you marry me right?
Can I count this as a transaction which is closed? Any commitment question
to be certain to remain silent then, and allow the individual
to respond to you, and when that happens, I believe it creates clarity
around the question itself and the answer.
(02:22):
and then you can move on with conversation. So I think sometimes we get involved in sort of this murkiness around, using the language to to hide our nervousness or our fears or other kinds of things, and we simply over talk a situation. So that's the thought around the paper napkin suggestion to you.
Govindh Jayaraman (02:42):
Well, I I knew this immediately, I mean.
or and you've negotiated some gigantic
business transactions, and obviously the personal transactions in your life have worked out pretty well. You've got a beautiful family, lots of children, lots of grandchildren.
And I knew this, that though this sounds very businessy, I wondered about the deeper question, and the deeper question really seems to be about preparation. Right? Like we have to be prepared
(03:13):
to have confidence in the question we're asking right, and isn't that so? Your paper napkin is about the question and the commitment question, and don't speak until you're given an answer.
But it's also about the preparation that you
undertake to get to that place so you can ask a clear question. Isn't it.
WarrenRustand (03:32):
Yes, it is. I think there's preparation for everything. Everything we do is preparing us for the next thing we do. So preparation is really critical. We have to be good, and
I always say there are no small decisions in life. We do not know
the decision we make at the moment we make it, whether it's going to be a big or a small decision in our life, and we may need to know, don't. Maybe maybe we don't find that out for weeks or months or years after we make the decision. So the preparation
(04:00):
for everything we do is critical, and preparation for asking these specific questions of commitment is important. But there's a second preparation.
The preparation for the answer is also important.
We may get the answer we hope for and want.
in which case we know how respond.
But how will we respond, and what preparation we've done? Have we done for the for the answer
(04:25):
that we don't want for the answer that we didn't get, that we expected. And what's our preparation for that? And I think we have to be prepared for both of those
when we ask the commitment question.
and I think all too often we get excited about the commitment question and what we believe to be the answer.
Sure, where we don't get that answer. We aren't prepared
(04:48):
to do anything or to act in that circumstance, and we should be just as able to respond to the negative as to the positive. In the answer to the commitment question, for example.
when I knelt down with a ring to ask my wife to marry me 61 years ago.
I wasn't exactly sure how she'd respond. I mean, she had the option, you know. We talked about it, but I wasn't sure, and so I asked the question, and I and I got silent.
(05:19):
and she thought, and then responded positively, so I was elated and happy. I got the answer I wanted, but then I said, I have a second question.
I'm only going to be married once. How about you?
I asked her a second commitment question. She had never thought about that.
and so she had to pause.
(05:40):
and there could have been any one of 2 answers there, just like the 1st question, but I had to give her time to think about that. Her response was me, too, and so we took divorce off the table, we took discussion of separation off the table. It's never come up ever in any time in our marriage, and it's because we made a commitment at that point in time, and the answer that we wanted that we both wanted was there. So
(06:06):
it's an example of okay. I got the 1st answer I wanted. And then I took the risk of a second commitment question. I wasn't exactly sure. So you'd say, No, I'm gonna try you out for 6 weeks, and then I'm moving on kind of thing, you know.
Oh, oh, you never know what might happen.
Govindh Jayaraman (06:22):
That's right. That's right. I think.
Okay. So you've given me the the.
how it looked for you when you proposed to your wife.
That's a great story. But the the thing that really
I find incredible is you use the words, and you use words carefully. So you said, just as able
(06:46):
to respond in the other
instance as well. So there's the answer, ability to get the answer you want. I think we all think about that. Well, great! I'm gonna get this sale. She's gonna say, yes.
we're going to do this thing, and that's a rush to the next thing.
(07:08):
You're slowing that part down as well, because there's an ability to respond in that circumstance that shouldn't be that alarming or surprising, and you had a follow up question in your case, but just as able to respond in the other, or the the unexpected or undesired outcome. What does that look like?
WarrenRustand (07:28):
Yeah, it's really interesting, because the preparation that I make is for the alternative. I I go into those kinds of commitment questions
pretty confident of what the answer is going to be, because I've done the work I've done, the preparation. I've had that relationship with the client, or whatever it might be.
But I've been surprised on occasion when someone has given me an answer that I didn't expect. And so, if I've thought through the potential answers in the negative, not the positive, but in the negative. Then I'm prepared to respond to that. And I had a client once who said.
(08:01):
No, I'm not going to do this deal with you because I don't believe your product is good enough to do what we have to have done to make us successful.
Well, that would have jarred some people, but I had prepared for that, and I said, I understand completely what you're saying.
and therefore would it be possible for us to do a trial
(08:24):
that would demonstrate to you and your people that we would be able to provide sufficiently for the needs that you have.
And he responded to that in a positive he hadn't thought about that. Let's do a trial. Let's let's put it in place. Let's try it out if you will right? Because I was saying, our product is so good it will meet your needs. I know it will, and we're willing to put it on trial, are you?
(08:46):
And he said, Yes, and so we put it on trial. It did well, and we closed the deal, and it was a large transaction for us at that moment in time. So I think, having thought that through otherwise I would have been sitting there. Oh, I didn't expect that. What do I say next? Where do we go from? Here? Have I just lost the sale in the relationship? And rather than saying, No, I've thought it through. And here's what I'm going to propose
(09:12):
right?
So so Hattie just said No, with no explanation.
Well, I had an answer for that as well. So I think we want to think through
the potential consequences of the commitment questions we ask, both in the positive and the negative, so that we're well prepared to deal with the circumstance, and when we do that I think we prove to the client
(09:35):
that we've done our homework.
We understand both circumstances, and maybe we're worthy of doing business with.
Govindh Jayaraman (09:43):
I think that's really interesting, because when you come to the intent.
if you come to that commitment question with the preparation of having really considered things from someone else's perspective. They can feel that, can't they?
WarrenRustand (09:55):
I think so. I believe so. Yes.
Govindh Jayaraman (09:57):
Now, and I think this is really powerful because it works in business and in life equally fruitfully. I mean, when you went and proposed again, it meant that this question was a serious one. I mean, obviously, will you marry me? Is a serious. It's probably the most serious question that anybody asks any other human being.
(10:18):
However, the fact that you gave it the weight that it deserves
is indicated by your next response. Isn't it.
WarrenRustand (10:30):
Yes, I think so. I think there's an alternative to Govan, and that is what happens when you get asked the commitment question.
Govindh Jayaraman (10:39):
Okay, let's talk about that.
WarrenRustand (10:40):
So. So we, as business leaders oftentimes get asked commitment questions right? It could be a not for profit coming to us and then asking us to do something specifically, contribute money, contribute manpower, whatever it might be. It could be another company coming to us and say, Would you consider an alliance or a partnership of some kind. It could be any number of things it could be. The sales process could be on the other foot. It could be another company, asking us
(11:06):
if we would do their whatever. And so likewise, I think we have to give that interaction serious thought before we give an answer.
and oftentimes we don't do the preparation necessary. I think, when we know that discussion is coming up, we see it as an appointment on our schedule. We need to have prepared for that.
(11:27):
So that when we get into that discussion and we're pretty confident they're going to ask us a commitment question. What's my response going to be.
no, we can't make a financial contribution. However, we've got 2 of our people who really want to participate with you and offer time and energy to what you're trying to do to help the underserved right? So it solves a part of their problem, but not all of their problem. But we've done something in a generous way. So having thought that through as opposed to saying.
(11:54):
Well, I don't know what else we could do, or I haven't thought that much about it, or and I think it just shows our lack of preparation and concern for the seriousness of the moment. So I think it works both ways. We have to be ready if we're asked a commitment question, and and if we ask a commitment question, we have to be prepared in both cases.
Govindh Jayaraman (12:13):
Yeah. So sometimes we get blindsided, though, right? We we as business leaders, people are often sort of coming to us with things that may be adjacent to the work that we're doing. It may not be on our schedule or our calendar.
How do we prepare for those commission questions that were asked.
WarrenRustand (12:35):
Yeah, I think we have to have. We have to be vulnerable. And we have to be honest, right to keep the integrity of the relationship, and there are some things we just get surprised by. I've been surprised. I know you have been surprised on occasion, which is Whoa didn't expect that. So then how do we respond? I'm someone who likes to process things and think about it. And so I'm going to be very honest with them, and said, You know, I simply hadn't expected that question, and I don't want to respond to you in a cavalier way.
(13:01):
so I can. I can call you back in 1 h with my thoughts? Or could we schedule some time tomorrow, or the next day, when we could really embrace this and have a discussion about it, because I need to really think through what the consequences could be for our organization or for me personally. And so I'm very honest about the fact that I like to think about things. I don't always like to respond automatically and quickly, because I found that I can make mistakes that way.
(13:27):
And so, if I can process it even for a few minutes or an hour or so to clear my head around the issues, options, alternatives, I'm going to give a better answer than if I just spontaneously respond and regret it later.
I think sometimes we get caught up in the spontaneity of the moment.
and haven't really thought it through when we get surprised by something, and when we do, we may not always give our best answer, and we may regret it later.
Govindh Jayaraman (13:55):
Yeah. And and when we
react so so it's almost like both sides of this commitment question can create the same
confusion. Because if we react with a bunch of.
you know, mental processing or stream of consciousness, thinking that we're saying out loud. We are now creating fogginess around our response.
(14:22):
The same way that we would be doing the other way around if we were asking the question and start blathering on filling the noise, because we're not confident about our question, and we lack clarity that way, too. So either way, it's it's an unclear response, right.
WarrenRustand (14:39):
Correct. Yeah. And so I think the way to deal with that is through preparation. And I, you know.
among the key words
in our lives, and certainly in business, you know, there are a handful really for me, it's focus
and discipline what precedes focus and discipline preparation.
(15:00):
So if I were to say, what's the sequence? It's preparation.
focus and discipline. That's what success is about.
Govindh Jayaraman (15:08):
In the same way that if you want to talk about change or transformation.
WarrenRustand (15:12):
I think the formula is connection plus challenge equals change, connection plus challenge equals change.
And I think I've found that to be true in organizations that we that we're trying to transform. Unless we have a connection with people.
we can't really challenge them.
(15:34):
And we won't get the change we want. So we must create the connection first.st And that's why, in management team meetings, for example, or group discussion, we all spend a little time upfront. How was your weekend. What's going on? Anything exciting happening in your life? You spend some time on the connection piece.
and then you have the right to challenge them.
and you can expect the change
(15:56):
right? And so I think this notion notion of connection plus challenge equals change, which Malik Mohammed has created. A good friend of mine, right? And a really good thinker really pioneered the social discipline, the leadership, social discipline window, which is about connection, plus challenge equals change. And so I think it comes at us in a lot of ways. And so there are only, I think, a few key words
(16:24):
in our personal and business lives that really change the trajectory of where we're going. And I would say those are among the few.
Govindh Jayaraman (16:32):
That's that's that's incredible. And and I and I think that this is this. So so speaking about this
prior to a commitment question asking a commitment question, and then also being in preparation for that, having the focus discipline. So preparation, focus discipline.
And then, if you're maybe even asking a connection a commitment question. Making sure you're connected with the person prior to issuing the challenge, the commitment question
(16:59):
to perhaps evoke a change either way. Let's talk about
the preparation framework. What does that preparation framework? What are the steps that you go through prior to asking a commitment question to sort of ascertain the various options that might be there. Because it's 1 thing to say, I think, hey, I need to think about this. I'll get back to you in an hour. But people do their thinking very randomly about these things. I have a sense that you're structured about this, that there's a pathway.
WarrenRustand (17:33):
Yeah, there's a little structure that goes with it. Obviously, the 1st is what what outcome do you want? I think you start with the end in mind, Stephen Covey. Right? Start with the end in mind. What outcome do you want? I want a yes from the client. Okay, what will drive? A yes.
and then you work backward from the outcome
to the preparation that's necessary to to drive the yes. Well, maybe to get the Yes outcome. I need to have communication with this person 3 times a week. I need to send them specific information in both written and electronic form.
(18:06):
Maybe another part of the preparation. I need to talk with their with the person closest to them and their their closest advisor. To be sure, that person is also knowledgeable of what we're doing right? So I need to disseminate information as one of the pieces. And right
the second, the second piece of the preparation, I think, is, what do I know about this person who's going to answer the commitment question?
(18:29):
What do I know about them personally?
And how can I get to know them better personally.
could we engage in not-for-profit activities together? Could we engage in sports together? Could we do something socially together? What is a part of the process that brings the relationship closer.
Therefore, I hope, influencing the decision of some degree in a positive way.
(18:53):
One. I like this person. I think they're capable, they'd be a great relationship. I want to cultivate that relationship. So how do I do that? How do I cultivate the relationship? So that would be another part of the puzzle. I think right. And the 3rd part of the puzzle for me is, do I really know and understand
what I'm offering them and asking them to respond to
(19:16):
meaning that if they could ask me any question about the technology, the process, the product.
the gift, whatever it is.
Do I know the answer. Do I know my product or service well enough?
Then I can answer any question I'd hate to get in the middle of a commitment, question and answer, and have to say, I'll have to check on that.
(19:39):
I'll get back with you right, because that delays the answer to the commitment question.
So my preparation and knowledge of what it is I'm asking that person to do is really essential.
Govindh Jayaraman (19:52):
And it's also really important to understand that. And I think that's done through the 1st 2 steps and correct me if I'm wrong. But what outcome do you want? And what do I know about that person helps inform? If you really know and understand what I'm asking them to commit to from their perspective and not from yours, because I believe
(20:15):
this thing that we always talk about in our company is Project whisper, which is, it's better to whisper in the language of our customer, our audience, than it is to shout in our own language.
But you have to know what language that is you have to know what's important to them, right? So that pre-work gets you to that frame, doesn't it?
WarrenRustand (20:33):
Yeah, it does. And the point you make about language is really important, because we know that leaders speak in different languages. The visionary speaks different than the achiever who speaks different than the facilitator who speaks different than the analyst. And so we have to be understanding of the language, so that
the party to whom we're asking the question truly understands what we're asking
(20:53):
in language that he is his primary speech pattern.
and all too often, I mean you and I are visionaries to an extent right? So we dream big. We've got big ideas and so forth. And and if the analyst is in that conversation. We're dreaming, dreaming, dreaming, and telling them what's going to happen. And the analyst is going to say, great, show me the data.
His language is data information, right? It's not big dreams. It's about hardcore determination around data.
(21:21):
The facilitator is going to say, let's sit down and talk about this. Let's say, let's have a group discussion. Right? Let's let's process this right? So they're all about process and systems, right and making everybody feel good and happy and all that sort of stuff the achiever is driving for results right?
Govindh Jayaraman (21:37):
Where do I go? What like.
WarrenRustand (21:38):
Yeah, where do I go? What's the pathway? How do I get there? You know. What's the sequence? What are your metrics? Right? Those kinds of things. So we all have these different leadership languages. And if I'm going to ask a commitment question, then I need to ask the question
in a way that the receiver understands what I've said in their language, and that's.
Govindh Jayaraman (22:00):
Because so many times we we kind of botch that part, don't we?
WarrenRustand (22:05):
We do. Yeah, we do heck early in my career. I watched it all the time. I couldn't figure out why I couldn't make the sale, or why, I got to know, you know, I mean. And and I had to learn about this stuff over a period of time, and now that I got 60 years in the business world. I may be a hair better at it than I was when I was 20. But yeah, it's a process. We need to learn.
Govindh Jayaraman (22:27):
So so let okay. So
for leaders listening to this right now, they're like, I think I've been there. But how do I know for sure. What? What should we be listening to
as leaders to understand that we've got this lack of coherence in the sense that the question I'm asking is not even understood by our party as opposed to.
(22:53):
not aligned with them. Because I think we conflate the 2 right. We think that they
we think that they're saying No, when they just don't understand, or vice versa.
WarrenRustand (23:05):
Right. So I think we have to assume that for the question we have in point the commitment question, there's been a lead up to the commitment question. We've had other interactions with this person. Right? So this isn't the 1st time we've talked to him.
Govindh Jayaraman (23:17):
No.
WarrenRustand (23:18):
So I think we have to practice a different principle that I've been talking a lot about lately, which is this notion of question-centered leadership.
question-centered leadership.
Govindh Jayaraman (23:29):
What does that mean?
WarrenRustand (23:30):
My history means that I've gotten to know
top military leaders, politicians, presidents of the United States, captains of industry, and so forth. I've been very fortunate to be able to interact with people. What I found about great leaders is they ask great questions.
They ask the best questions.
And so what I have found is that that if we can ask good questions.
(23:55):
we learn so much more than if we spend all of our time talking.
and most leaders, for good or for bad, spend their time talking.
directing people, telling people, do this, do that report back to me. This is my idea. You know we're we're always directed in the way that we talk.
If we were to put that aside for a second and simply ask questions, we can lead people to conclusions that they would not otherwise come to, which is beneficial for them, because that's a learning process for them. In the process of asking questions we gain tremendous information, right? So if we're asking really good questions.
(24:31):
then we get good information. So if I've had a process with this person that I'm going to ask a commitment question to where I've interacted with them several times, and I've been really good at asking questions, and if I listen carefully
I will discern the language of speaking in
okay. And then, when I frame my commitment question, I can do it in the language that's most comfortable for them.
(24:55):
And so I think sometimes we're so accustomed to speaking
that we don't ask good questions, and we aren't good listeners.
Listening is a cultivated, acquired skill that we can become really good at. And the best leaders I've ever been around have it in spades. They are really good at asking questions.
Govindh Jayaraman (25:16):
So what? What is the difference between asking a question
out of process? Because people out there saying, I know I ask lots of questions, and I still don't get like it's nice, but they're talking about asking. I'm doing that. I've got that on my list. I've got my list of questions. I'm going down my list of questions, but it's still not working. You're not talking about that. You're talking about something deeper. What is that? What does that feel.
WarrenRustand (25:46):
That's the deeper question, right? So you and I meet each other in the hallway. We just both got to work. We meet each other hall. Say, Hey, Govin, how you doing? You say fine, and we just pass
well, there's nothing that's all superficial. There's nothing deep about that. But if I were to step if I stopped
and faced you and looked at you and said.
Govin, how did your weekend go?
(26:07):
What activities did you have that were meaningful. This weekend, you know, you're creating a different level.
If I were to say this to you, Govan, if you and I meet a year from now.
what would we be celebrating?
Okay, what would we be celebrating.
Govan? What skill is it that you have that is now in exile?
Govindh Jayaraman (26:30):
Wow!
WarrenRustand (26:31):
That you're not using right? Those evoke different kinds of responses and saying, how was the football game.
Govindh Jayaraman (26:38):
Right.
WarrenRustand (26:39):
Hey? I see you got a new car. How's your car?
Those are all fun and interesting questions, but they don't get you to the deeper answer, and I think question-centered leadership is about getting to deeper answers.
Govindh Jayaraman (26:52):
And it's actually about caring about it. Isn't it like being actually curious? Curious about the person.
WarrenRustand (26:58):
Yep. So connection.
it's the connection piece, right? And so I think we have to spend time creating the connections with people at a deeper level. And when we do.
we transform the relationship in a way that allows for higher performance, better understanding, common language, a host of things that can come out of that.
(27:19):
That just makes life more fun easier, better, right? And so I think we always want to drive for the deeper question. In fact, there's a book that's been written called Qbq.
The question behind the question, What's the deeper question? We always ask superficial questions. But what's the deeper question? And if we can get to the deeper question, it opens up relationships in a very different way.
Govindh Jayaraman (27:43):
Sure does.
WarrenRustand (27:44):
That builds confidence. It builds integrity. I mean, there's a a caring that opens up right. That wouldn't happen any other way.
Govindh Jayaraman (27:53):
But if you're asking a commitment question without going to the Qbq. Right before, without going to the curious question behind the question, and then let's say they say, well, you know, we're just not really sure that you can service us, and you haven't
been curious. You haven't been interested. You can't just sell them on, hey? No, no, we're going to really engage you in a dialogue and get there.
(28:21):
They won't.
They won't believe that.
WarrenRustand (28:23):
Yeah. So in so in a previous conversation, I would have had with that same person, I would have been asking those kinds of questions right? So that when he says or she says, we don't think you can service this or whatever the answer might be, I'm prepared to have that discussion, because I can say, you know, we talked about that about 2 weeks ago when I asked you this question about service relationships. Here's what you said. So I know that we can meet the service requirement. And here's how we're going to do it
(28:53):
right. That's a different kind of response. And being suddenly jarred by the fact that I hadn't thought about that.
or that surprised me.
Govindh Jayaraman (29:01):
Let's flip this framework now to the other side, because we did that earlier about the commitment question, and then being asked a commitment question, and needing also to take that moment. Reflect. And
how do those 3 steps that you gave me
change or flip when we've been asked that commitment question instead, what does that look like.
WarrenRustand (29:25):
I think, and I hope that people who are know they're going to be asked a commitment question have given the preparation, as I said earlier to that situation, to that position
when that not-for-profit, charitable organization comes to us and asks us for manpower or money, or whatever it might be, they ask the commitment question. Will you do this for us
if I've prepared? Well.
(29:47):
right, if I've focused well, if I understand the connection, if I've asked good questions along the way. Maybe maybe it's a 1 time conversation. If that's the case, then I need to have asked really good questions leading up to the commitment question. If it's a multiple time conversation. Have I asked the good questions to get the information that I need to give an intelligent and sensitive response right? And so again, the preparation is on both sides.
(30:13):
and we have to have done our homework by asking the questions that get us the information we need to make an intelligent decision. So when the when the commitment question is asked of me, I can say, I know how important this is to you.
You've told me that in several conversations, or you told me that earlier in this conversation I want you to know this is not a cavalier answer. I've thought about this.
(30:36):
and here's how I think we can help you. It may not be exactly as you would like to have it, but we can do the following things, I can commit our organization to do the following things.
and it just changes the dialogue as opposed to me, saying, I'm sorry we can't. We just can't do that.
Govindh Jayaraman (30:53):
Yeah. But what if? The answer is, No.
WarrenRustand (30:56):
Yeah.
Govindh Jayaraman (30:59):
I'm.
WarrenRustand (31:00):
What I try to do when the answer is, no.
we can't help you in this case.
but I'd personally like to see you successful, and therefore I'm willing to call the following 3 people and give you an introduction.
so try to assist them in moving their agenda forward as opposed to. Just no, I can't help you
(31:20):
try to assist them. I could even do that with a salesperson, or I could do that. Someone in almost any situation. I'm willing to use people in my network to help you advance your agenda.
Does that help? Would you like me to do that kind of thing? And so, you know, it's not exactly what they wanted, but it takes them a step forward potentially.
Govindh Jayaraman (31:40):
Let me ask you a question. Why would you do that for someone that you've just said? No to.
WarrenRustand (31:45):
Would I do that?
Govindh Jayaraman (31:46):
Yeah. Why would you do that?
Why would I do that?
Yeah.
WarrenRustand (31:49):
Look. I think the nature of our being is to be generous and kind and helpful, and I think that's who we are. I think that's what we want to do. This person is prepared to be in that conversation. It's their job to do this. Well, it's important to their organization. So for me to be cold or callous in that situation. It's just not fair, and maybe not even honorable. So what could I do in my preparation? What can I do? I'm going to say no.
(32:16):
But what can I do to facilitate what they're trying to achieve?
How could I help them? And so I'm going to try to do that, if possible.
Yeah. And you know what
say, I might say, you know, our organization can't do that. But I want here's my personal contribution, and offer a check
as a contribution to the organization.
Govindh Jayaraman (32:35):
Right? Right? So it it doesn't.
Again. It's it's not necessarily just about finance. It's about
what you put out in the world right? And if you, if you want to be met with kindness and generosity.
even in a no, being generous about that doesn't cost you anything, does it?
WarrenRustand (32:58):
Right. That's right. I mean you, you and I both. It seems simple, but the bottom line is just be kind.
right? Just be kind and thoughtful. And that person's gonna walk out of our office.
and they're going to have conversations with others about the meeting with us.
What are they gonna say, you know. No, they weren't going to help us, but he was so kind
(33:18):
and generous to offer me introductions to other people.
That's different than saying he just said, No, not going to help us.
I don't understand, you know, and and
so I think this being kind, brave, kind, and smart, you know 3 great words, right brave, kind, and smart, are really important, and and the kindness just pays off, I think, pays off for years ago.
(33:41):
I just I, just as we're talking. I just got a
an email this morning. I gave a presentation in Bermuda in 1989.
And I just got an email from a person who was in that audience in 1989. And he said, I just never thanked you for how you changed our lives. My wife and I were in that audience, and they, you said this that day, and as a result of a follow-up conversation we had with you and our practice of that.
(34:12):
For the last 30 years our entire family and lives have changed.
And I just want to thank you for that. I mean, that's amazing. You know, coming 30 years after the fact, you know, kind of thing. And and so I think how we use language, how we treat people. All of those things really matter, and I think we need to take it really seriously.
Govindh Jayaraman (34:34):
And and this is where it is so important to prepare.
WarrenRustand (34:38):
Yes.
Govindh Jayaraman (34:38):
Focus and have the discipline to show up and be present.
and that means putting away devices.
WarrenRustand (34:47):
Yep.
Govindh Jayaraman (34:48):
Connecting with the human person in front of you.
with all of your intent right.
WarrenRustand (34:53):
Absolutely, absolutely.
It's our ability to focus in that moment in that conversation on that question, having been prepared for it and being disciplined enough to stay with it the whole time, and when we do that that person will leave our office. Whether they got the answer they wanted or not, knowing that we were present, that we were thoughtful, that we were kind, and that we knew what they were doing.
(35:17):
And I think that's a really important thing, because those
communications and conversations go on all the time. Some are good and some are bad, and I think we need to make them good. I think that's our role as a leader and gets our obligation as a leader.
Govindh Jayaraman (35:31):
I'm just.
WarrenRustand (35:31):
Been good about us.
Govindh Jayaraman (35:32):
Yeah, we can make every interaction with us. Good.
WarrenRustand (35:36):
Absolutely.
Govindh Jayaraman (35:37):
When we bring preparation, focus and discipline, because then we can be kind because we're present. I mean, I think it's like you said. It's in our human nature to be generous. I don't know if you can see this, or I'm going to turn around. But on the back of my yeah.
WarrenRustand (35:50):
I see it.
Govindh Jayaraman (35:51):
Let's see, it says kindness is greater than so. All the all the paper napkin wisdom
gear has that symbol on the back is.
WarrenRustand (35:59):
I like that. That's great.
Govindh Jayaraman (36:00):
Right and it also holds us accountable that, you know when I'm wearing this, I better be kind because it says shirt right.
WarrenRustand (36:09):
That's true, that's true. So I just think there are simple things that we can do to to make life better for everyone. And you know, I was asked recently, what do we? What are we trying to do in this world?
And I said, we're just trying to help each other get back home.
And and I think that's what we're just trying to help each other get back home. However, we define home.
(36:30):
We're just trying to get help each other get back home. You know it's it's all about just helping people on the journey
and being kind in the process, and and then people will treat us with kindness and help us on our journey. And I think that's really important for us.
Govindh Jayaraman (36:45):
Yeah, I I think it is.
We've been ending recent paper napkin wisdom episodes with this idea of what you appreciate appreciates. And there's been so much here that I appreciate about you.
Warren. I know that I would not be here doing this work if it were not for your mentorship and guidance, and I thank you for that. So I get to give you that shout out. But who would you like to shout out today.
WarrenRustand (37:10):
Well, my shout out is for you
because of what you're doing, and because of how, in small ways and large ways, you have a chance to change the world by bringing knowledge, inspiration, other people to a conversation which influences others. So my shout out is for you, Ovin, and the good work that you're doing, and the success that you're having, and I hope your audience continues to grow and expand in ways that you can't imagine which will allow you to touch the lives of millions of people. And I think that's really important work. So thank you for including me. Thank you for the great work that you're doing.
Govindh Jayaraman (37:42):
Thank you, Warren.
I'm humbled.
Warren Rustand, welcome back to paper napkin wisdom. I am excited to see you here today.
WarrenRustand (00:09):
Thank you very much, Govin. I appreciate the invitation to join with you in a fun discussion. I look forward to our conversation, and I appreciate all you're doing to help people.
Govindh Jayaraman (00:18):
Yeah. Well, I'm just following in the, in, the, in the path that you have blazed for us all.
for those of you who don't know Juan Rustan has among his many missions in life to inspire and lead and impact the lives of millions of people, and he's chosen to do that through other leaders. I've been lucky enough to be in the classrooms that he's presided over and learned from the master himself. Many times it has been a privilege to apply some of the learnings and hopefully
(00:51):
carry on the work that you do everywhere. So thank you for that. Thank you for the inspiration.
WarrenRustand (00:56):
Thank you.
Govindh Jayaraman (00:57):
So you shared a fascinating napkin with me today, and it says, when you ask someone a commitment question, don't speak until you are given an answer.
Why did you share that with me?
WarrenRustand (01:13):
Oh, I think sometimes we overly complicate our lives by talking too much.
and when we're in a position to ask someone a commitment question whether you're in sales or you're proposing to someone to ask someone to be your spouse.
Be certain to ask that serious commitment question and then remain silent until someone answers.
(01:38):
All too often as we ask the commitment question in our own nervousness or excitement, we start talking again.
and we blur or obscure the really specific question that we've just asked.
And so I've always felt. And I learned early in life. And when we ask that commitment question, will you accept the job?
(01:59):
Will you marry me right?
Can I count this as a transaction which is closed? Any commitment question
to be certain to remain silent then, and allow the individual
to respond to you, and when that happens, I believe it creates clarity
around the question itself and the answer.
(02:22):
and then you can move on with conversation. So I think sometimes we get involved in sort of this murkiness around, using the language to to hide our nervousness or our fears or other kinds of things, and we simply over talk a situation. So that's the thought around the paper napkin suggestion to you.
Govindh Jayaraman (02:42):
Well, I I knew this immediately, I mean.
or and you've negotiated some gigantic
business transactions, and obviously the personal transactions in your life have worked out pretty well. You've got a beautiful family, lots of children, lots of grandchildren.
And I knew this, that though this sounds very businessy, I wondered about the deeper question, and the deeper question really seems to be about preparation. Right? Like we have to be prepared
(03:13):
to have confidence in the question we're asking right, and isn't that so? Your paper napkin is about the question and the commitment question, and don't speak until you're given an answer.
But it's also about the preparation that you
undertake to get to that place so you can ask a clear question. Isn't it.
WarrenRustand (03:32):
Yes, it is. I think there's preparation for everything. Everything we do is preparing us for the next thing we do. So preparation is really critical. We have to be good, and
I always say there are no small decisions in life. We do not know
the decision we make at the moment we make it, whether it's going to be a big or a small decision in our life, and we may need to know, don't. Maybe maybe we don't find that out for weeks or months or years after we make the decision. So the preparation
(04:00):
for everything we do is critical, and preparation for asking these specific questions of commitment is important. But there's a second preparation.
The preparation for the answer is also important.
We may get the answer we hope for and want.
in which case we know how respond.
But how will we respond, and what preparation we've done? Have we done for the for the answer
(04:25):
that we don't want for the answer that we didn't get, that we expected. And what's our preparation for that? And I think we have to be prepared for both of those
when we ask the commitment question.
and I think all too often we get excited about the commitment question and what we believe to be the answer.
Sure, where we don't get that answer. We aren't prepared
(04:48):
to do anything or to act in that circumstance, and we should be just as able to respond to the negative as to the positive. In the answer to the commitment question, for example.
when I knelt down with a ring to ask my wife to marry me 61 years ago.
I wasn't exactly sure how she'd respond. I mean, she had the option, you know. We talked about it, but I wasn't sure, and so I asked the question, and I and I got silent.
(05:19):
and she thought, and then responded positively, so I was elated and happy. I got the answer I wanted, but then I said, I have a second question.
I'm only going to be married once. How about you?
I asked her a second commitment question. She had never thought about that.
and so she had to pause.
(05:40):
and there could have been any one of 2 answers there, just like the 1st question, but I had to give her time to think about that. Her response was me, too, and so we took divorce off the table, we took discussion of separation off the table. It's never come up ever in any time in our marriage, and it's because we made a commitment at that point in time, and the answer that we wanted that we both wanted was there. So
(06:06):
it's an example of okay. I got the 1st answer I wanted. And then I took the risk of a second commitment question. I wasn't exactly sure. So you'd say, No, I'm gonna try you out for 6 weeks, and then I'm moving on kind of thing, you know.
Oh, oh, you never know what might happen.
Govindh Jayaraman (06:22):
That's right. That's right. I think.
Okay. So you've given me the the.
how it looked for you when you proposed to your wife.
That's a great story. But the the thing that really
I find incredible is you use the words, and you use words carefully. So you said, just as able
(06:46):
to respond in the other
instance as well. So there's the answer, ability to get the answer you want. I think we all think about that. Well, great! I'm gonna get this sale. She's gonna say, yes.
we're going to do this thing, and that's a rush to the next thing.
(07:08):
You're slowing that part down as well, because there's an ability to respond in that circumstance that shouldn't be that alarming or surprising, and you had a follow up question in your case, but just as able to respond in the other, or the the unexpected or undesired outcome. What does that look like?
WarrenRustand (07:28):
Yeah, it's really interesting, because the preparation that I make is for the alternative. I I go into those kinds of commitment questions
pretty confident of what the answer is going to be, because I've done the work I've done, the preparation. I've had that relationship with the client, or whatever it might be.
But I've been surprised on occasion when someone has given me an answer that I didn't expect. And so, if I've thought through the potential answers in the negative, not the positive, but in the negative. Then I'm prepared to respond to that. And I had a client once who said.
(08:01):
No, I'm not going to do this deal with you because I don't believe your product is good enough to do what we have to have done to make us successful.
Well, that would have jarred some people, but I had prepared for that, and I said, I understand completely what you're saying.
and therefore would it be possible for us to do a trial
(08:24):
that would demonstrate to you and your people that we would be able to provide sufficiently for the needs that you have.
And he responded to that in a positive he hadn't thought about that. Let's do a trial. Let's let's put it in place. Let's try it out if you will right? Because I was saying, our product is so good it will meet your needs. I know it will, and we're willing to put it on trial, are you?
(08:46):
And he said, Yes, and so we put it on trial. It did well, and we closed the deal, and it was a large transaction for us at that moment in time. So I think, having thought that through otherwise I would have been sitting there. Oh, I didn't expect that. What do I say next? Where do we go from? Here? Have I just lost the sale in the relationship? And rather than saying, No, I've thought it through. And here's what I'm going to propose
(09:12):
right?
So so Hattie just said No, with no explanation.
Well, I had an answer for that as well. So I think we want to think through
the potential consequences of the commitment questions we ask, both in the positive and the negative, so that we're well prepared to deal with the circumstance, and when we do that I think we prove to the client
(09:35):
that we've done our homework.
We understand both circumstances, and maybe we're worthy of doing business with.
Govindh Jayaraman (09:43):
I think that's really interesting, because when you come to the intent.
if you come to that commitment question with the preparation of having really considered things from someone else's perspective. They can feel that, can't they?
WarrenRustand (09:55):
I think so. I believe so. Yes.
Govindh Jayaraman (09:57):
Now, and I think this is really powerful because it works in business and in life equally fruitfully. I mean, when you went and proposed again, it meant that this question was a serious one. I mean, obviously, will you marry me? Is a serious. It's probably the most serious question that anybody asks any other human being.
(10:18):
However, the fact that you gave it the weight that it deserves
is indicated by your next response. Isn't it.
WarrenRustand (10:30):
Yes, I think so. I think there's an alternative to Govan, and that is what happens when you get asked the commitment question.
Govindh Jayaraman (10:39):
Okay, let's talk about that.
WarrenRustand (10:40):
So. So we, as business leaders oftentimes get asked commitment questions right? It could be a not for profit coming to us and then asking us to do something specifically, contribute money, contribute manpower, whatever it might be. It could be another company coming to us and say, Would you consider an alliance or a partnership of some kind. It could be any number of things it could be. The sales process could be on the other foot. It could be another company, asking us
(11:06):
if we would do their whatever. And so likewise, I think we have to give that interaction serious thought before we give an answer.
and oftentimes we don't do the preparation necessary. I think, when we know that discussion is coming up, we see it as an appointment on our schedule. We need to have prepared for that.
(11:27):
So that when we get into that discussion and we're pretty confident they're going to ask us a commitment question. What's my response going to be.
no, we can't make a financial contribution. However, we've got 2 of our people who really want to participate with you and offer time and energy to what you're trying to do to help the underserved right? So it solves a part of their problem, but not all of their problem. But we've done something in a generous way. So having thought that through as opposed to saying.
(11:54):
Well, I don't know what else we could do, or I haven't thought that much about it, or and I think it just shows our lack of preparation and concern for the seriousness of the moment. So I think it works both ways. We have to be ready if we're asked a commitment question, and and if we ask a commitment question, we have to be prepared in both cases.
Govindh Jayaraman (12:13):
Yeah. So sometimes we get blindsided, though, right? We we as business leaders, people are often sort of coming to us with things that may be adjacent to the work that we're doing. It may not be on our schedule or our calendar.
How do we prepare for those commission questions that were asked.
WarrenRustand (12:35):
Yeah, I think we have to have. We have to be vulnerable. And we have to be honest, right to keep the integrity of the relationship, and there are some things we just get surprised by. I've been surprised. I know you have been surprised on occasion, which is Whoa didn't expect that. So then how do we respond? I'm someone who likes to process things and think about it. And so I'm going to be very honest with them, and said, You know, I simply hadn't expected that question, and I don't want to respond to you in a cavalier way.
(13:01):
so I can. I can call you back in 1 h with my thoughts? Or could we schedule some time tomorrow, or the next day, when we could really embrace this and have a discussion about it, because I need to really think through what the consequences could be for our organization or for me personally. And so I'm very honest about the fact that I like to think about things. I don't always like to respond automatically and quickly, because I found that I can make mistakes that way.
(13:27):
And so, if I can process it even for a few minutes or an hour or so to clear my head around the issues, options, alternatives, I'm going to give a better answer than if I just spontaneously respond and regret it later.
I think sometimes we get caught up in the spontaneity of the moment.
and haven't really thought it through when we get surprised by something, and when we do, we may not always give our best answer, and we may regret it later.
Govindh Jayaraman (13:55):
Yeah. And and when we
react so so it's almost like both sides of this commitment question can create the same
confusion. Because if we react with a bunch of.
you know, mental processing or stream of consciousness, thinking that we're saying out loud. We are now creating fogginess around our response.
(14:22):
The same way that we would be doing the other way around if we were asking the question and start blathering on filling the noise, because we're not confident about our question, and we lack clarity that way, too. So either way, it's it's an unclear response, right.
WarrenRustand (14:39):
Correct. Yeah. And so I think the way to deal with that is through preparation. And I, you know.
among the key words
in our lives, and certainly in business, you know, there are a handful really for me, it's focus
and discipline what precedes focus and discipline preparation.
(15:00):
So if I were to say, what's the sequence? It's preparation.
focus and discipline. That's what success is about.
Govindh Jayaraman (15:08):
In the same way that if you want to talk about change or transformation.
WarrenRustand (15:12):
I think the formula is connection plus challenge equals change, connection plus challenge equals change.
And I think I've found that to be true in organizations that we that we're trying to transform. Unless we have a connection with people.
we can't really challenge them.
(15:34):
And we won't get the change we want. So we must create the connection first.st And that's why, in management team meetings, for example, or group discussion, we all spend a little time upfront. How was your weekend. What's going on? Anything exciting happening in your life? You spend some time on the connection piece.
and then you have the right to challenge them.
and you can expect the change
(15:56):
right? And so I think this notion notion of connection plus challenge equals change, which Malik Mohammed has created. A good friend of mine, right? And a really good thinker really pioneered the social discipline, the leadership, social discipline window, which is about connection, plus challenge equals change. And so I think it comes at us in a lot of ways. And so there are only, I think, a few key words
(16:24):
in our personal and business lives that really change the trajectory of where we're going. And I would say those are among the few.
Govindh Jayaraman (16:32):
That's that's that's incredible. And and I and I think that this is this. So so speaking about this
prior to a commitment question asking a commitment question, and then also being in preparation for that, having the focus discipline. So preparation, focus discipline.
And then, if you're maybe even asking a connection a commitment question. Making sure you're connected with the person prior to issuing the challenge, the commitment question
(16:59):
to perhaps evoke a change either way. Let's talk about
the preparation framework. What does that preparation framework? What are the steps that you go through prior to asking a commitment question to sort of ascertain the various options that might be there. Because it's 1 thing to say, I think, hey, I need to think about this. I'll get back to you in an hour. But people do their thinking very randomly about these things. I have a sense that you're structured about this, that there's a pathway.
WarrenRustand (17:33):
Yeah, there's a little structure that goes with it. Obviously, the 1st is what what outcome do you want? I think you start with the end in mind, Stephen Covey. Right? Start with the end in mind. What outcome do you want? I want a yes from the client. Okay, what will drive? A yes.
and then you work backward from the outcome
to the preparation that's necessary to to drive the yes. Well, maybe to get the Yes outcome. I need to have communication with this person 3 times a week. I need to send them specific information in both written and electronic form.
(18:06):
Maybe another part of the preparation. I need to talk with their with the person closest to them and their their closest advisor. To be sure, that person is also knowledgeable of what we're doing right? So I need to disseminate information as one of the pieces. And right
the second, the second piece of the preparation, I think, is, what do I know about this person who's going to answer the commitment question?
(18:29):
What do I know about them personally?
And how can I get to know them better personally.
could we engage in not-for-profit activities together? Could we engage in sports together? Could we do something socially together? What is a part of the process that brings the relationship closer.
Therefore, I hope, influencing the decision of some degree in a positive way.
(18:53):
One. I like this person. I think they're capable, they'd be a great relationship. I want to cultivate that relationship. So how do I do that? How do I cultivate the relationship? So that would be another part of the puzzle. I think right. And the 3rd part of the puzzle for me is, do I really know and understand
what I'm offering them and asking them to respond to
(19:16):
meaning that if they could ask me any question about the technology, the process, the product.
the gift, whatever it is.
Do I know the answer. Do I know my product or service well enough?
Then I can answer any question I'd hate to get in the middle of a commitment, question and answer, and have to say, I'll have to check on that.
(19:39):
I'll get back with you right, because that delays the answer to the commitment question.
So my preparation and knowledge of what it is I'm asking that person to do is really essential.
Govindh Jayaraman (19:52):
And it's also really important to understand that. And I think that's done through the 1st 2 steps and correct me if I'm wrong. But what outcome do you want? And what do I know about that person helps inform? If you really know and understand what I'm asking them to commit to from their perspective and not from yours, because I believe
(20:15):
this thing that we always talk about in our company is Project whisper, which is, it's better to whisper in the language of our customer, our audience, than it is to shout in our own language.
But you have to know what language that is you have to know what's important to them, right? So that pre-work gets you to that frame, doesn't it?
WarrenRustand (20:33):
Yeah, it does. And the point you make about language is really important, because we know that leaders speak in different languages. The visionary speaks different than the achiever who speaks different than the facilitator who speaks different than the analyst. And so we have to be understanding of the language, so that
the party to whom we're asking the question truly understands what we're asking
(20:53):
in language that he is his primary speech pattern.
and all too often, I mean you and I are visionaries to an extent right? So we dream big. We've got big ideas and so forth. And and if the analyst is in that conversation. We're dreaming, dreaming, dreaming, and telling them what's going to happen. And the analyst is going to say, great, show me the data.
His language is data information, right? It's not big dreams. It's about hardcore determination around data.
(21:21):
The facilitator is going to say, let's sit down and talk about this. Let's say, let's have a group discussion. Right? Let's let's process this right? So they're all about process and systems, right and making everybody feel good and happy and all that sort of stuff the achiever is driving for results right?
Govindh Jayaraman (21:37):
Where do I go? What like.
WarrenRustand (21:38):
Yeah, where do I go? What's the pathway? How do I get there? You know. What's the sequence? What are your metrics? Right? Those kinds of things. So we all have these different leadership languages. And if I'm going to ask a commitment question, then I need to ask the question
in a way that the receiver understands what I've said in their language, and that's.
Govindh Jayaraman (22:00):
Because so many times we we kind of botch that part, don't we?
WarrenRustand (22:05):
We do. Yeah, we do heck early in my career. I watched it all the time. I couldn't figure out why I couldn't make the sale, or why, I got to know, you know, I mean. And and I had to learn about this stuff over a period of time, and now that I got 60 years in the business world. I may be a hair better at it than I was when I was 20. But yeah, it's a process. We need to learn.
Govindh Jayaraman (22:27):
So so let okay. So
for leaders listening to this right now, they're like, I think I've been there. But how do I know for sure. What? What should we be listening to
as leaders to understand that we've got this lack of coherence in the sense that the question I'm asking is not even understood by our party as opposed to.
(22:53):
not aligned with them. Because I think we conflate the 2 right. We think that they
we think that they're saying No, when they just don't understand, or vice versa.
WarrenRustand (23:05):
Right. So I think we have to assume that for the question we have in point the commitment question, there's been a lead up to the commitment question. We've had other interactions with this person. Right? So this isn't the 1st time we've talked to him.
Govindh Jayaraman (23:17):
No.
WarrenRustand (23:18):
So I think we have to practice a different principle that I've been talking a lot about lately, which is this notion of question-centered leadership.
question-centered leadership.
Govindh Jayaraman (23:29):
What does that mean?
WarrenRustand (23:30):
My history means that I've gotten to know
top military leaders, politicians, presidents of the United States, captains of industry, and so forth. I've been very fortunate to be able to interact with people. What I found about great leaders is they ask great questions.
They ask the best questions.
And so what I have found is that that if we can ask good questions.
(23:55):
we learn so much more than if we spend all of our time talking.
and most leaders, for good or for bad, spend their time talking.
directing people, telling people, do this, do that report back to me. This is my idea. You know we're we're always directed in the way that we talk.
If we were to put that aside for a second and simply ask questions, we can lead people to conclusions that they would not otherwise come to, which is beneficial for them, because that's a learning process for them. In the process of asking questions we gain tremendous information, right? So if we're asking really good questions.
(24:31):
then we get good information. So if I've had a process with this person that I'm going to ask a commitment question to where I've interacted with them several times, and I've been really good at asking questions, and if I listen carefully
I will discern the language of speaking in
okay. And then, when I frame my commitment question, I can do it in the language that's most comfortable for them.
(24:55):
And so I think sometimes we're so accustomed to speaking
that we don't ask good questions, and we aren't good listeners.
Listening is a cultivated, acquired skill that we can become really good at. And the best leaders I've ever been around have it in spades. They are really good at asking questions.
Govindh Jayaraman (25:16):
So what? What is the difference between asking a question
out of process? Because people out there saying, I know I ask lots of questions, and I still don't get like it's nice, but they're talking about asking. I'm doing that. I've got that on my list. I've got my list of questions. I'm going down my list of questions, but it's still not working. You're not talking about that. You're talking about something deeper. What is that? What does that feel.
WarrenRustand (25:46):
That's the deeper question, right? So you and I meet each other in the hallway. We just both got to work. We meet each other hall. Say, Hey, Govin, how you doing? You say fine, and we just pass
well, there's nothing that's all superficial. There's nothing deep about that. But if I were to step if I stopped
and faced you and looked at you and said.
Govin, how did your weekend go?
(26:07):
What activities did you have that were meaningful. This weekend, you know, you're creating a different level.
If I were to say this to you, Govan, if you and I meet a year from now.
what would we be celebrating?
Okay, what would we be celebrating.
Govan? What skill is it that you have that is now in exile?
Govindh Jayaraman (26:30):
Wow!
WarrenRustand (26:31):
That you're not using right? Those evoke different kinds of responses and saying, how was the football game.
Govindh Jayaraman (26:38):
Right.
WarrenRustand (26:39):
Hey? I see you got a new car. How's your car?
Those are all fun and interesting questions, but they don't get you to the deeper answer, and I think question-centered leadership is about getting to deeper answers.
Govindh Jayaraman (26:52):
And it's actually about caring about it. Isn't it like being actually curious? Curious about the person.
WarrenRustand (26:58):
Yep. So connection.
it's the connection piece, right? And so I think we have to spend time creating the connections with people at a deeper level. And when we do.
we transform the relationship in a way that allows for higher performance, better understanding, common language, a host of things that can come out of that.
(27:19):
That just makes life more fun easier, better, right? And so I think we always want to drive for the deeper question. In fact, there's a book that's been written called Qbq.
The question behind the question, What's the deeper question? We always ask superficial questions. But what's the deeper question? And if we can get to the deeper question, it opens up relationships in a very different way.
Govindh Jayaraman (27:43):
Sure does.
WarrenRustand (27:44):
That builds confidence. It builds integrity. I mean, there's a a caring that opens up right. That wouldn't happen any other way.
Govindh Jayaraman (27:53):
But if you're asking a commitment question without going to the Qbq. Right before, without going to the curious question behind the question, and then let's say they say, well, you know, we're just not really sure that you can service us, and you haven't
been curious. You haven't been interested. You can't just sell them on, hey? No, no, we're going to really engage you in a dialogue and get there.
(28:21):
They won't.
They won't believe that.
WarrenRustand (28:23):
Yeah. So in so in a previous conversation, I would have had with that same person, I would have been asking those kinds of questions right? So that when he says or she says, we don't think you can service this or whatever the answer might be, I'm prepared to have that discussion, because I can say, you know, we talked about that about 2 weeks ago when I asked you this question about service relationships. Here's what you said. So I know that we can meet the service requirement. And here's how we're going to do it
(28:53):
right. That's a different kind of response. And being suddenly jarred by the fact that I hadn't thought about that.
or that surprised me.
Govindh Jayaraman (29:01):
Let's flip this framework now to the other side, because we did that earlier about the commitment question, and then being asked a commitment question, and needing also to take that moment. Reflect. And
how do those 3 steps that you gave me
change or flip when we've been asked that commitment question instead, what does that look like.
WarrenRustand (29:25):
I think, and I hope that people who are know they're going to be asked a commitment question have given the preparation, as I said earlier to that situation, to that position
when that not-for-profit, charitable organization comes to us and asks us for manpower or money, or whatever it might be, they ask the commitment question. Will you do this for us
if I've prepared? Well.
(29:47):
right, if I've focused well, if I understand the connection, if I've asked good questions along the way. Maybe maybe it's a 1 time conversation. If that's the case, then I need to have asked really good questions leading up to the commitment question. If it's a multiple time conversation. Have I asked the good questions to get the information that I need to give an intelligent and sensitive response right? And so again, the preparation is on both sides.
(30:13):
and we have to have done our homework by asking the questions that get us the information we need to make an intelligent decision. So when the when the commitment question is asked of me, I can say, I know how important this is to you.
You've told me that in several conversations, or you told me that earlier in this conversation I want you to know this is not a cavalier answer. I've thought about this.
(30:36):
and here's how I think we can help you. It may not be exactly as you would like to have it, but we can do the following things, I can commit our organization to do the following things.
and it just changes the dialogue as opposed to me, saying, I'm sorry we can't. We just can't do that.
Govindh Jayaraman (30:53):
Yeah. But what if? The answer is, No.
WarrenRustand (30:56):
Yeah.
Govindh Jayaraman (30:59):
I'm.
WarrenRustand (31:00):
What I try to do when the answer is, no.
we can't help you in this case.
but I'd personally like to see you successful, and therefore I'm willing to call the following 3 people and give you an introduction.
so try to assist them in moving their agenda forward as opposed to. Just no, I can't help you
(31:20):
try to assist them. I could even do that with a salesperson, or I could do that. Someone in almost any situation. I'm willing to use people in my network to help you advance your agenda.
Does that help? Would you like me to do that kind of thing? And so, you know, it's not exactly what they wanted, but it takes them a step forward potentially.
Govindh Jayaraman (31:40):
Let me ask you a question. Why would you do that for someone that you've just said? No to.
WarrenRustand (31:45):
Would I do that?
Govindh Jayaraman (31:46):
Yeah. Why would you do that?
Why would I do that?
Yeah.
WarrenRustand (31:49):
Look. I think the nature of our being is to be generous and kind and helpful, and I think that's who we are. I think that's what we want to do. This person is prepared to be in that conversation. It's their job to do this. Well, it's important to their organization. So for me to be cold or callous in that situation. It's just not fair, and maybe not even honorable. So what could I do in my preparation? What can I do? I'm going to say no.
(32:16):
But what can I do to facilitate what they're trying to achieve?
How could I help them? And so I'm going to try to do that, if possible.
Yeah. And you know what
say, I might say, you know, our organization can't do that. But I want here's my personal contribution, and offer a check
as a contribution to the organization.
Govindh Jayaraman (32:35):
Right? Right? So it it doesn't.
Again. It's it's not necessarily just about finance. It's about
what you put out in the world right? And if you, if you want to be met with kindness and generosity.
even in a no, being generous about that doesn't cost you anything, does it?
WarrenRustand (32:58):
Right. That's right. I mean you, you and I both. It seems simple, but the bottom line is just be kind.
right? Just be kind and thoughtful. And that person's gonna walk out of our office.
and they're going to have conversations with others about the meeting with us.
What are they gonna say, you know. No, they weren't going to help us, but he was so kind
(33:18):
and generous to offer me introductions to other people.
That's different than saying he just said, No, not going to help us.
I don't understand, you know, and and
so I think this being kind, brave, kind, and smart, you know 3 great words, right brave, kind, and smart, are really important, and and the kindness just pays off, I think, pays off for years ago.
(33:41):
I just I, just as we're talking. I just got a
an email this morning. I gave a presentation in Bermuda in 1989.
And I just got an email from a person who was in that audience in 1989. And he said, I just never thanked you for how you changed our lives. My wife and I were in that audience, and they, you said this that day, and as a result of a follow-up conversation we had with you and our practice of that.
(34:12):
For the last 30 years our entire family and lives have changed.
And I just want to thank you for that. I mean, that's amazing. You know, coming 30 years after the fact, you know, kind of thing. And and so I think how we use language, how we treat people. All of those things really matter, and I think we need to take it really seriously.
Govindh Jayaraman (34:34):
And and this is where it is so important to prepare.
WarrenRustand (34:38):
Yes.
Govindh Jayaraman (34:38):
Focus and have the discipline to show up and be present.
and that means putting away devices.
WarrenRustand (34:47):
Yep.
Govindh Jayaraman (34:48):
Connecting with the human person in front of you.
with all of your intent right.
WarrenRustand (34:53):
Absolutely, absolutely.
It's our ability to focus in that moment in that conversation on that question, having been prepared for it and being disciplined enough to stay with it the whole time, and when we do that that person will leave our office. Whether they got the answer they wanted or not, knowing that we were present, that we were thoughtful, that we were kind, and that we knew what they were doing.
(35:17):
And I think that's a really important thing, because those
communications and conversations go on all the time. Some are good and some are bad, and I think we need to make them good. I think that's our role as a leader and gets our obligation as a leader.
Govindh Jayaraman (35:31):
I'm just.
WarrenRustand (35:31):
Been good about us.
Govindh Jayaraman (35:32):
Yeah, we can make every interaction with us. Good.
WarrenRustand (35:36):
Absolutely.
Govindh Jayaraman (35:37):
When we bring preparation, focus and discipline, because then we can be kind because we're present. I mean, I think it's like you said. It's in our human nature to be generous. I don't know if you can see this, or I'm going to turn around. But on the back of my yeah.
WarrenRustand (35:50):
I see it.
Govindh Jayaraman (35:51):
Let's see, it says kindness is greater than so. All the all the paper napkin wisdom
gear has that symbol on the back is.
WarrenRustand (35:59):
I like that. That's great.
Govindh Jayaraman (36:00):
Right and it also holds us accountable that, you know when I'm wearing this, I better be kind because it says shirt right.
WarrenRustand (36:09):
That's true, that's true. So I just think there are simple things that we can do to to make life better for everyone. And you know, I was asked recently, what do we? What are we trying to do in this world?
And I said, we're just trying to help each other get back home.
And and I think that's what we're just trying to help each other get back home. However, we define home.
(36:30):
We're just trying to get help each other get back home. You know it's it's all about just helping people on the journey
and being kind in the process, and and then people will treat us with kindness and help us on our journey. And I think that's really important for us.
Govindh Jayaraman (36:45):
Yeah, I I think it is.
We've been ending recent paper napkin wisdom episodes with this idea of what you appreciate appreciates. And there's been so much here that I appreciate about you.
Warren. I know that I would not be here doing this work if it were not for your mentorship and guidance, and I thank you for that. So I get to give you that shout out. But who would you like to shout out today.
WarrenRustand (37:10):
Well, my shout out is for you
because of what you're doing, and because of how, in small ways and large ways, you have a chance to change the world by bringing knowledge, inspiration, other people to a conversation which influences others. So my shout out is for you, Ovin, and the good work that you're doing, and the success that you're having, and I hope your audience continues to grow and expand in ways that you can't imagine which will allow you to touch the lives of millions of people. And I think that's really important work. So thank you for including me. Thank you for the great work that you're doing.
Govindh Jayaraman (37:42):
Thank you, Warren.
I'm humbled.
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