Episode Transcript
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Govindh Jayaraman (00:02):
Sheila Whitaker. Welcome to paper! Napkin wisdom! I'm thrilled to have you here today.
whittaker (00:07):
Well, I'm delighted to be here. Thank you.
Govindh Jayaraman (00:10):
So so for those of you who are just listening and not watching the video. Sheila's got a very interesting you know. View behind her with some really interesting art, and and and and just beautiful colors. So I wanna I wanna just say it's a very happy environment that you're in right now, Sheila. Thank you for sharing that with us.
whittaker (00:32):
Oh, thank you!
Govindh Jayaraman (00:33):
Yes.
whittaker (00:34):
Is happy.
Govindh Jayaraman (00:35):
It is, it is.
whittaker (00:36):
Yeah.
Govindh Jayaraman (00:36):
So I. Your paper napkin is simple, short, but I think there's a lot to it, so I want to share it with everybody. It says, tell the truth quickly.
Why did you share that with me?
whittaker (00:50):
Well, when I
got the opportunity to think about a paper napkin piece of wisdom, and I think you know there is a long tradition of clever things written on paper napkins. And and I've been aware of it for a long time. So I thought, Okay, Whitaker, here's your chance.
And
(01:11):
I was out eating lunch in a very nice art gallery here in Toronto with a long time female friend who had been through a lot with me.
and so we had a delightful lunch, and the
waitress came up with our bill and said it was such and such, and I said, Well, I was totally responsible for it, because I had
(01:38):
missed the previous lunch that we'd set up, and I felt very guilty.
And then I said, but it sounds slow, and she said, No, no, there's this on it, and this on it, and this on it, and this on it. And I looked at her, and I said.
No, you forgot at the beginning I had a hot toddy, and that's not on this list.
(02:00):
And she said, Oh, oh, well, I'll go in at it.
and when she left I said to my friend Karen, I said, That's it.
that's it. Tell the truth quickly, big things and small.
It's easy to think. Oh, well, I'll save 5, 50, or whatever the hot. I don't know what the hot toddy cost, but there's a tiny temptation sneaks past you in that kind of case.
(02:24):
and I have learned over time that certainly the best thing for me to do is to say right away. No, that's not right. I owe you more or no you're not going to get this opportunity. You're very good, but I shouldn't leave you hanging out there.
(02:45):
So so then I decided that's what would be my paper napkin wisdom.
And I've thought about it since, and I've thought that
it's helped me a lot in life. It saved me a lot of angst of hand-wringing of oh, what should I do or say?
Because when you don't tell the truth quickly, you can get caught in subsequent untruths.
(03:10):
or in trying to figure out. When should you tell the truth.
or how to make the truth less impactful now that you've given it an outing, you know.
So that's how I came to it.
Govindh Jayaraman (03:27):
You know. So there's there's a and I wondered about this, and I wonder how quickly we'd get there. But the imagery of this little figure on your shoulder
facing you, this art that's behind you. And now that's not what that art is. But the way your posture is with this little figure on your shoulder facing you, speaking to you is is neat along with this tiny temptation idea that sometimes just tries to sneak past you, and what I liked about what you said there was.
(04:00):
There's an awareness that you have to bring, because that temptation is there, and if you're not careful it will sneak past you
right, even create hesitation. Isn't it true?
whittaker (04:10):
Yes, it does. Yes.
Govindh Jayaraman (04:12):
Now look, I think I think all of us have been in a place where we wondered
for a moment or longer what to say about something, and maybe it's not as
simple as a as a hot toddy missing from a, from a.
from a bill at a restaurant. Maybe it's something more complex. Maybe feelings are involved, or, you know, saying something might
(04:41):
jeopardize a relationship in our perspectives, and that hesitation
is also something that it sort of sneaks past you. It's not, it's not. Temptation comes in a lot of different ways, doesn't it? It.
whittaker (04:53):
Yes, yes, it does, and the hesitation is a communication.
Govindh Jayaraman (04:58):
So tell me about that. What does that mean?
whittaker (05:00):
Well, you say to somebody, good news! Good news you're going to be invited to such and such an important dinner.
And you say, Oh, who's coming?
And they tell you. And then you say, Oh.
oh, I might be busy that day, you know something like that.
Govindh Jayaraman (05:21):
Sure.
whittaker (05:22):
You've told them that you're not actually telling the truth. You're going to go away and decide whether or not you like those people enough
to come.
But the other person knows that, so you may as well have been straightforward.
Govindh Jayaraman (05:36):
And and could they not fill that gap with other narratives as well? That might be even more damaging like this person doesn't like me. I'm not important enough for them to show up on this day.
Yes, right. There's a whole bunch of other things right.
whittaker (05:50):
Yes, they can.
Govindh Jayaraman (05:50):
Or even.
whittaker (05:51):
Could be more important. Or, yeah.
Govindh Jayaraman (05:54):
Or even the more simple one, which is, why wouldn't you just tell me the truth like, why wouldn't you just say that you're not interested in being there with that group of people.
What's what's and that that's also distance. So
so I think that tiny temptation that sneaks past you in that moment, and that's 1 of the things that really
(06:14):
caught me about your napkin, because there's nothing.
whittaker (06:18):
Unique about it. But the idea was quickly, and the speed of the speed of the truth is really important. Yeah.
yes. And you read it perfectly.
because it is. Tell the truth quickly.
You know, you went on. When I heard you read it I thought he's caught the message that it's that it's quickly is the most important, almost part of the message.
Govindh Jayaraman (06:40):
So is is that okay? Sometimes people feel that when rendering an opinion, let's say their truth is about an opinion about something. And and they're and they're asking, you know, people are asking, Hey, what do you think of this thing that I poured my life's work into? What do you think about it right? And then we hesitate in that moment, too.
(07:06):
because we want to be kind, even, though maybe they use salt instead of sugar. And it tastes awful.
But but how I think you're saying it still applies there, doesn't it?
whittaker (07:19):
Yes, it does. It's interesting. Just last week
I've joined for the 1st time a Writers group.
and this writers group circulates a chapter in advance of the meeting to everyone, and then they go around the room as a small group, discussing the quality of the writing. The story as it emerges, or whatever like I said, I've never been in this before.
(07:43):
but it's very important, actually, in that environment
to be honest because they're asking you, how can I improve my art?
Govindh Jayaraman (07:55):
Yeah.
whittaker (07:56):
But you can also really hurt their feeling. End up a person that they don't. They can say, Oh, I don't really like her, but she was honest.
Govindh Jayaraman (08:06):
You know, that's really neat, right? We because part of telling the truth quickly, doesn't it also step back when we're asking for the truth that we ought to ask for what we're really asking for.
It's not. What do you think of this? Sometimes we're asking. We're asking, what do you think of me?
whittaker (08:23):
And yeah, that's that's a different question.
Govindh Jayaraman (08:28):
And sometimes we mistake the answer right like, if I asked you, what do I? If I'm if I'm new to cooking, let's go back to that example, and I and I make something this dish that I followed a recipe for, and I'm really proud of it, and I'm trying to become a better cook, and I offer it to you. And I say, Hey, you know I'm trying to be a better cook. This is my attempt. What do you think
(08:52):
right now? The context is, I'm wanting to learn. How did I do as opposed to
anything else? So you can answer the question quickly and honestly, because I've asked a better question. Doesn't that also apply from the point of asking a question and asking.
whittaker (09:10):
Well, some of it depends on how well they know you. Of course.
Govindh Jayaraman (09:12):
Of course.
whittaker (09:13):
We have a wonderful story in our family. My my sister-in-law used to cook. She wasn't a great cook.
and she used to cook various things, some of which I think were good and some not so good.
And the the sort of chuckle around the family is that if she made something that wasn't very good. For the 1st time
(09:34):
her husband would say, that's very nice, dear, but I wouldn't want to eat it every day.
and we all knew, and she knew.
Govindh Jayaraman (09:48):
That that was a sort of sweet code for yuck.
Yeah, yeah.
that's great. That's great. So so let's bring this to the boardroom. Right. Let's bring this to a company situation, a leadership situation. And you've you've been a leader in many different ways. How do we apply that to that situation. How does how do we apply it in the boardroom or in leadership?
whittaker (10:14):
Well, I think one way that we apply it in leadership
is by making sure that you're operating
really kind of very democratically. If there's a bunch of you in the room that you really have taken
a fair temperature of the room
(10:34):
and given people a chance to describe. Maybe at a more general level.
where they're leading on a subject
without having to be personally self. Ex. You know, without having to be the only one that said XY. Or z.
and you can interpret that what they might be saying they might say, I'm not sure this is a great idea, and you know from your previous experience with this person that that means they're saying it really sucks, you know.
Govindh Jayaraman (11:02):
The dinner example right.
whittaker (11:03):
Back to the deer example.
or you have somebody that's that's sort of shaking in their seat for excitement at the possibility of whatever it is, but it it gives you a chance. 1st of all gives you a chance to sort of take the temperature, especially if you're going to have to be a decision maker.
Govindh Jayaraman (11:22):
Hmm.
whittaker (11:23):
But, second of all, it gives people a chance to feel that they had integrity, that they were able
in the best way they could to be constructive
about the idea, or the situation, or the proposal, or whatever.
Govindh Jayaraman (11:40):
Yeah. So I think what you're what's interesting about what you're saying is telling the truth quickly doesn't isn't, you know, an open license to be cruel to people.
whittaker (11:49):
No.
Govindh Jayaraman (11:49):
Because you're talking about being constructive, but also truthful, and all of that can happen at the same speed. Can't it.
whittaker (11:57):
Yes, it can. Yeah.
Govindh Jayaraman (11:59):
So does that look like.
whittaker (12:02):
Could have said I could have said, and I have been known to say this kind of thing like
you forgot the hot toddy, and I want you to put it on the bill. But, by the way.
it wasn't very good, you know.
So you could. You could add, add a message
(12:23):
if you wanted to, and if you're honest.
your message is more likely to be heard. Well, otherwise you won't give the message because you won't have admitted you had the hot toddy.
Govindh Jayaraman (12:32):
That's right.
Perfect course you had the hot toddy. So you were a little bit more open.
whittaker (12:37):
Mellow, more mellow, yes.
Govindh Jayaraman (12:40):
Yeah. So so I find it really interesting, though, that you're you're
you're suggesting that it's possible, right? Because I think of people
think of the speed of truth, almost always being harsh.
that it's a harsh truth. It's the brutal honesty, I mean. Those are the terms that are usually
bandied about. But you're not talking about that. You're talking about something that is inclusive but still transparent.
whittaker (13:06):
Yeah, yeah, I'm talking about.
Wow, that's an amazing idea. Or, well, that's amazing idea. And what Jeff over here is suggesting is going to make it even better. Kind of thing, that sort of thing more.
But then these people who are dealing with you know that when you say got any other ideas
(13:30):
that you're being honest.
Govindh Jayaraman (13:32):
Yeah, yeah, that's right.
That's right. So so do you think, do you think that?
the quickly part, you know again, the time? Because because I think that one of the other things that you said is silence is an answer.
Right. But it may not be the answer you wish to convey as a leader
(13:54):
right. So so also speed
promotes clarity doesn't, it, even if you're not particularly clear with what you're saying. Silence is less clear than something.
whittaker (14:06):
Yes, because one of the things is sometimes, if you speak your truth like, you know, I really don't like that in bright pink. Do you think you should have done it in green?
And then you hear the other person or other people say, Well, it's springtime, you see, and we were thinking that we wanted to evoke a fresh feeling about it. And we know you like Pink. But that's because that's that's your thing.
(14:31):
and you can't always have pink, Sheila, but it gives people a chance
to also shift their own opinions.
Govindh Jayaraman (14:43):
Yeah.
whittaker (14:43):
Or to, or to come to a consensus to come to some kind of consensus.
or to leave out the part that the person told you they didn't like, or that they were dishonest about, or whatever.
Govindh Jayaraman (14:56):
And time, like the the passage of time, creates a
at least an emotional investment in what's being said? Isn't it like if I say something. Go back to your pink and green example if I say it should be in pink
and or and and leave it there for a day, a week or a month, and then you come back afterwards. Say, well, it shouldn't have been in green.
(15:20):
There's 2 things, you know, all that silence has done 2 things. I'm more invested in this idea. I think we've moved past it to something else. And now we're rewinding, not just on that one decision, but everything else that comes from that as well.
whittaker (15:33):
Yes, yes, I think so. I I think
it's the same thing with you, know. But when you I was thinking about the example, tell the truth quickly. When someone, for example, is not going to get a job or not going to get a promotion.
Govindh Jayaraman (15:46):
Hmm.
whittaker (15:48):
If you tell them right away, but in a nice way, like, I'm sorry
you don't really have the qualifications for the job that you wanted, so you won't be getting it. However.
I thought this was good about you, and this was good about you, and maybe you can address this by doing something rather
(16:08):
versus. I haven't made up my mind yet. I'll let you know in 2 weeks, when you already know.
Yeah, already know, I think that particular thing is really cruel. I remember, you know, suffering at the
at the waiting to get the proper answer thing.
And and you're, you know, a lot of your life is hanging on whether or not you get this job, and the person is just
(16:33):
playing with you.
Govindh Jayaraman (16:36):
Let me. Let me ask you, though.
Because you've had this on both sides of it, and and.
whittaker (16:41):
The moon.
Govindh Jayaraman (16:42):
Sort of rewind a bit. But have you always had this philosophy of telling the truth quickly? Or is that something that you learn to exercise more through your experiences.
whittaker (16:55):
I think I learned it to exercise more through experiences.
I was funny. I have this story about my daughter, my
when she was 2 and a half
she was. I had some animal crackers. This was back in Ottawa we were living in. I had some animal crackers.
(17:15):
and I put about 8 on the table, and I said, There's your animal crackers.
And she said, and I put the rest away. And she said, Mom, I'm going out to play in the backyard.
Watch the animal crackers for me.
so she's out playing for quite a while, and I eat
a couple because I know there's more in the cupboard, you know.
(17:36):
and she comes back into the house and she looks at her animal crackers, and she looks at me. And she says, Mom.
what did I tell you?
2 and a half? What did I tell you?
I said you told me to watch your animal crackers, and she said, and what did you do?
And I said, Well, I ate a couple, but there's plenty more in the cupboard. I'll get them, you know, right now.
(18:00):
and she says, What did you learn from this.
Govindh Jayaraman (18:09):
That's great!
whittaker (18:10):
Oh, she's still like that! She's a Crown prosecutor now. Wouldn't surprise you at all to hear that.
Govindh Jayaraman (18:15):
No, no! It sounded like she was running you through discovery at the time.
whittaker (18:19):
Yes, that's right.
Govindh Jayaraman (18:23):
That's amazing. So so the I think it's, it's, it's
So it's interesting to to see, you know, that that this was also a learned thing. What did you notice about your
your leadership style, or how people came to you? I mean, I think this biggest biggest part of it, you know, I think in leadership we want people to come to us with things that are figured out and things that are not figured out. And we want there to be an open door for things that work and don't work so we can learn at scale, right? We don't want 10 people on our team making the same mistake and learning 10 different ways. That's a way to slow down an organizational growth and create major problems in an organization. So we want people to learn in public.
(19:05):
How how do you did did this tell the truth quickly?
Idea.
Promote learning in your organizations?
whittaker (19:23):
I think that the thing that promoted honesty in my organizations
was what were the ramifications if you didn't tell the truth, but you were found out.
Govindh Jayaraman (19:38):
Okay.
whittaker (19:40):
And one of the more dramatic ones I can think of because it was big stuff.
was a very shamefaced, financial, smart, smart, young financial person
came to me. I still remember if his boss was with him or not, but anyway, came to say that he had to tell me
(20:05):
that he had made a mathematical error in a payout that we had made.
and it had been during a long, difficult negotiation.
and that he had miscalculated by almost a million dollars.
Govindh Jayaraman (20:22):
Oh, my! Gosh!
whittaker (20:23):
Yeah, by gosh!
And it sort of took my breath away, because that's a lot of money.
Govindh Jayaraman (20:31):
Sure, is.
whittaker (20:34):
I also, though at the same time thought he's come here and told me that in the course of his work he's made a mistake.
and it's that it's a significantly large that he really needs to tell me.
Well, I never did ask what the bedding was behind his back, because I'm sure if he was coming to have to tell me a lot of people had been talking to each other about what he should do. I don't know what the bedding was behind his back, but I'm sure a fair number figured he'd be out the door that night, you know.
(21:10):
but I just thought about it, and I thought, Well.
we can tell the people we've miscalculated, and see what they do see if they have integrity about admitting that they got more than they should.
and maybe they will, and maybe they won't.
But
we all work hard, and we're trying to do things right. And sometimes we make big mistakes. Anyway, he didn't get fired, and I can't remember if the people we overpaid had integrity or not.
(21:39):
which is interesting, that I can't remember that part.
Govindh Jayaraman (21:41):
Right. I was just gonna say, I think that's an interesting thing, because.
whittaker (21:49):
But he was, you know. He was young man, trying to do his best and work his way up, and we all make mistakes.
Govindh Jayaraman (21:55):
So what impact did that have on the rest of the team when they learned about that.
whittaker (21:59):
Well, I don't exactly know, you know.
but I I'm sure some of them thought I was too easy on him.
because people think that. But I think people thought that's an interesting person. That's an interesting leader.
(22:21):
I should see what she does. I you know. I think I'm hoping. Anyway, I'm hoping
that that was the case.
Govindh Jayaraman (22:29):
Yeah. So I believe that that when people make mistakes and share those mistakes, and we can all learn from them.
You know, the value is immeasurable because we've now at that point, organizationally, you've borne the cost.
whittaker (22:46):
Yeah, yeah.
Govindh Jayaraman (22:47):
Right, so you might as well get the reward from it, and learning around.
whittaker (22:50):
Yes, that's right.
Govindh Jayaraman (22:51):
And if you and if you don't, and that same mistake were to happen again, well, then, we're just.
You know we're we're now foolish.
whittaker (22:59):
Then he'd be fired. I'll tell you that, but I I bet you dollars to donuts that he would never make a mistake like that again in his life.
Govindh Jayaraman (23:09):
No, and and he would be better for it. The organization is better from it, because not just they didn't. They're not the only ones who got the learning, but everybody got the learning.
And the learning also wasn't to cover it up. The learning was to share it and share the mistakes. And so I'll bet you, there was huge organizational value there, and and I know I can think of other stories where people made big mistakes, went to their Ceos, thinking they were going to be fired.
(23:33):
and instead said, No, we've just invested now
X number of dollars in this mistake and in you.
So that's your executive education. Pass it on and never do it again.
Yeah.
whittaker (23:47):
Yeah, that's a good one.
Govindh Jayaraman (23:47):
Organization.
whittaker (23:49):
That's a good way of putting it. Also, I think that senior people are human.
Govindh Jayaraman (23:55):
Yeah.
whittaker (23:55):
Senior people have made mistakes in their lives, maybe not so big, but maybe still significant.
and lived in fear of what was going to happen to them.
and maybe sometimes for senior people. Something bad happened, you know.
and you and you don't want. And you think that really wasn't fair. And why would I do that to someone else? So some of it is sort of
(24:21):
morality caring for other people.
Govindh Jayaraman (24:24):
Yeah.
I want to ask you about this. Lived in fear part, because this is a nice segue to this figure off your left shoulder.
And this figure is a is a beautiful piece of art, which I find
quite in like, quite provocative in a number of different ways. It's it's a woman wearing a skirt
(24:49):
she is sitting atop a ladder that's leaning up against a wall, and she
sort of has the demeanor of having reached this point, but being weary or fatigued,
or tired in some way.
whittaker (25:05):
Yeah, that's what I see. I see. Todd, I see.
you know, that's that's what I see. Yeah.
Govindh Jayaraman (25:12):
So I know that
this was gifted to you from one of your organizations and your teams, and this this idea of living in fear. I mean, I see this figure, this, this woman who's climbed the ladder has reached the top of the ladder, and is, you know, having that sigh, that sigh.
(25:35):
But there's a isn't there a
an extra amount of fear, of judgment, of fear of?
I don't know everything that goes into that.
There's so much in that idea you were. You were
practicing this. Live the truth, you know. Tell the truth quickly, but at the same time.
perhaps we're we're fearing judgment from elsewhere. Is that wrong? Was I.
whittaker (25:59):
I think I'm in fact, what I see in it
is that people think, if you get to the top of the ladder that you think you are.
You know,
amazing that you're you know that you you've done it, and you kind of got the decoration for it.
(26:21):
and everybody else is kind of, you know, second tier, or whatever, and what I see in it is. No, you aren't sitting there thinking how smart I am and how you might be thinking how lucky I am
because luck plays a big, big role. But you aren't self-satisfied at the level. People imagine that you are.
(26:46):
And I was very impressed that the artist captured that because he's an he's an artist. But but it isn't all about. Oh, wow! Look at me! I did it. Ha, ha! It's not that at all. It's
I'm pleased at a certain level.
but it's wasn't that easy, you know.
Govindh Jayaraman (27:08):
Right.
whittaker (27:09):
So there, you could read really a lot into it.
you know she she has a lovely simplicity.
and and it is. It is remarkable, and it's a very insightful for for a male artist to see that
that sense, and I'm sure that
(27:35):
males at the top of the ladder feel something, but not they feel their own set of something. I think.
Govindh Jayaraman (27:42):
Yeah.
whittaker (27:43):
They don't.
They don't feel that something. They feel.
They may feel like imposters, for example, or something. But they
I don't know. I may be assuming. Maybe males do feel tired at the top.
Govindh Jayaraman (27:58):
Well, I think I think there, there are some shared experiences, but there are some unique experiences as well, and I think that's appropriate.
whittaker (28:05):
Yeah.
Govindh Jayaraman (28:05):
I just. I just think that
I think it's it's interesting when we talk about all of this, this sort of fear of judgment, this living in fear, or this idea of of how leaders are perceived, but how we all are perceived, and how that also sometimes leads to us, not
telling the truth quickly like that. We might get there, but we may not get there quickly.
(28:29):
So what is, what is one way that you use? Or do you have a a reminder that you use to to ensure that you are
responding quickly when necessary, because there's a there's a follow up question to that. So what are what are your reminder tools?
whittaker (28:49):
Good question. Well, the the quickly is one don't overstudy it, you know, especially, and and it's equates to magnitude, too right? Although, in fact.
the big magnitude ones that you are tempted to lie about. You should decide quicker than the hot toddy.
(29:12):
you know, and so
But oh, these days.
I get questions from my kids about what they should do, because their lives are complicated.
(29:39):
and I love to be involved in their lives.
And in those cases I try very hard to say. This is
this is the the honest route to this problem. This is my route.
(30:01):
A. But I I, on the other hand.
try and balance. You know the the cookies in the cupboard and and think, okay, but
I'm not all knowing and all seeing this is there
truth? So I have to be careful.
Govindh Jayaraman (30:24):
That's a powerful thing. The the other part of this
was, you know, there's a great truth that when asking a commitment question to someone.
Important to be silent and wait for the answer, and so telling the truth quickly.
There you go.
(30:45):
Tell me how it applies on both sides of that sort of adage, that idea that when asking a commitment question it's important to wait for the answer and be silent waiting for the answer. So there's a patience and time involved in that. But how does that play into
this wisdom?
whittaker (31:01):
Well, it's interesting, because something in your
formation of the question made Re made me remember
probably the most important time in my life to be truthful
my second husband and I were getting pretty serious.
and I really loved him. But I was no kid, you know. I had life behind me. He had life behind him.
(31:29):
and there was a lot of scope for finding out something about that the person did when they were 25, that you really think? Ugh!
Who is this person?
So we agreed to tell each other everything
that we thought was bad that we'd ever done.
Govindh Jayaraman (31:50):
Wow!
whittaker (31:53):
And it was
scary at a certain point, because he was, I know, after I told him all my bad things takes a long time he was quiet for quite a long time, and I thought, Oh, no, I've done it.
I've done it. I've lost him because I told him something about myself that he just can't tolerate.
(32:17):
Cause there are, you know, and I listen to all his things, and there were one or 2 that kind of hit me in the heart.
but I could see that you couldn't live
to his age, and not have done some things that might
(32:39):
hit your wife to be in the heart.
But anyway, subsequently we were married, for I think, 32 years. I was so glad, so glad, that we had done that. I just
I I just it really mattered.
Govindh Jayaraman (33:00):
It's almost like the bigger the commitment question, the better the truth, the more quick, the more important. And you you said this. Don't overstudy it. Just do it.
Thinking about 1st of all, thank you for sharing the story it reminded me of when my
mother-in-law and
found her second husband, and how that relationship came together. The the story of that and the letters they wrote that they didn't share with us, but they told us about was really
(33:31):
was very similar, and, in fact.
very not dissimilar to the fluky kind of amazing, transparent conversation that
Stacey and I had when we got together.
and you know, I think, how
we accidentally on purpose had this tell the truth quickly, conversation.
whittaker (33:52):
Yeah, exactly.
Govindh Jayaraman (33:53):
And it was, it was great, and it was spurred, though, by us attending her best friend's wedding.
where she was made of honor, and it just made me realize, oh, my gosh! This is important to me, and I need to tell the truth quickly about how I feel
about an.
whittaker (34:09):
Yeah, right.
Govindh Jayaraman (34:10):
Like it's. It's interesting how that comes about.
whittaker (34:13):
It is interesting how it comes about.
And it is interesting, the things you're scared that they'll react to some of which they do. But but it feels so much safer
in the relationship afterward that you've done that.
Govindh Jayaraman (34:31):
Right.
That even if it's not even if it doesn't go the way you thought it would go.
It's still better, isn't it?
whittaker (34:40):
Yes, oh, way, better.
Govindh Jayaraman (34:42):
Yeah, yeah, that's great.
Sheila. I want to thank you for sharing your wisdom with me here today. You have an interesting shout out as well. So just for everybody listening at the end of every podcast this season, we've been paying forward. This concept is what you appreciate appreciates what gratitude you put into the world increases and appreciates in value with all the people you share it with, and to inspire this kind of kindness, this movement
(35:14):
that that we are lucky to be a part of. I ask all of our guests to shout out someone something or some group of people
in some way. So who would you like to shout out today.
whittaker (35:26):
Well, I would like to shout out to my sister Penny and my brother John.
who are respectively 9 and 7 years older than I am so. They have had
various roles in my life.
Govindh Jayaraman (35:42):
Yes.
whittaker (35:43):
But I just am so grateful for them being the kind, loving, and moral
siblings that they've been. It's been I I couldn't ask for better.
Govindh Jayaraman (35:58):
That's wonderful. And I I can see the big smile on your face when you've been thinking about them. You have.
whittaker (36:02):
Yes, yes, I love them.
Govindh Jayaraman (36:05):
Yeah, I can see that, Sheila. I feel very privileged to have spent this time with you, and thank you for sharing your bright and sunny space, along with your bright and sunny ideas. I really do appreciate you. Thank you.
whittaker (36:15):
Very nice to talk to you.