In this episode of Paper Napkin Wisdom, I sit down with Dr. Heidi Hanna, a global expert in stress mastery, resilience training, and brain-based performance strategies. She’s a best-selling author, keynote speaker, and leadership coach who has worked with high-impact organizations like Google, Cisco, the PGA Tour, the U.S. Military, and countless executive teams around the world. She’s also someone who walks the walk—bringing vulnerability, wisdom, and science together in a powerful way that hits home.
Heidi’s journey into understanding the human brain wasn’t just academic—it was personal. Struggling with anxiety from an early age, she was driven to understand what was really happening under the surface when stress took over. Her discoveries changed not only her life but the lives of thousands who’ve heard her speak, read her books, or engaged with her coaching. She believes—and proves—that resilience isn’t a trait, it’s a trainable rhythm. And in this episode, she invites us all to tune in.
Her Paper Napkin Wisdom? It might be one of the most visually and emotionally resonant napkins we’ve featured yet:
📝 “You can’t stop the waves, but you can learn to surf.”
On the napkin, she sketched a sun rising over ocean waves—a symbol of hope, movement, and presence. It’s not just poetic—it’s deeply practical. Because let’s face it: life doesn’t stop. Business doesn’t stop. Leadership doesn’t stop. But the way we ride the waves of pressure, uncertainty, and change? That’s where everything shifts.
Stress Is a Signal, Not a Symptom
Heidi opens with a powerful reframe: stress isn’t the villain we’ve made it out to be. Instead, it’s a form of data—a signal pointing to something deeper.
“Stress isn't the enemy. Chronic stress with no recovery is the problem.”
The problem in today’s world isn’t that we’re stressed—it’s that we’re stuck in stress without giving ourselves time to reset. Heidi explains how the brain responds to pressure by activating protective responses. But without intentional recovery, those responses become destructive. Stress becomes toxic not because it exists—but because it persists.
She reminds us that high performers aren’t defined by how much stress they can tolerate but by how well the
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Govindh Jayaraman (00:02):
Heidi. Hannah, welcome back! 3 P. Back to paper. Napkin. Wisdom, excited to have you back here.
Heidi Hanna (00:08):
Thank you. What an honor I love talking with you. And I'll take whatever excuse a podcast. You know, meeting up in our many, many travels, but it's been a while, so it's lovely to see you. You look fantastic.
Govindh Jayaraman (00:21):
So, do you? Yeah, you look great, and you seem very.
very chill, very, very you, which is really nice to see, and absolutely for everybody listening. Heidi is in rare error in paper, napkin, wisdom, world. There are
2 other people who have ever been on paper, napkin wisdom. 3 or more times. Heidi is one of them, clearly one of my favorite people, but beyond that she has so much wisdom to share about things that I think are really important. Given, you know, the pressure and noise that is around the world today. These are challenging times for a lot of people and economically challenging times politically challenging times, philosophically challenging times, and I think that everybody
(01:06):
could use a little grace right now. And and I think this is a very important subject. So thank you for sharing this with me.
Heidi Hanna (01:13):
Thank you.
Govindh Jayaraman (01:14):
So Heidi shared a paper napkin, and for those of you who haven't seen it, you have to get online and check it out, and don't just listen to it, but she says you can't stop the waves, but you can learn to surf, and in the top right corner there's a beautiful sun, and there are some waves in the bottom left. Why did you share that with me?
Heidi Hanna (01:33):
Oh, gosh!
That I have to give credit, I believe. Originally the saying came from Jon Kabat-zin, who was one of the kind of pioneers of mindfulness. Meditation has done a lot of great research, and really kind of opened up the Western world to what has become such a key tool in my tool belt. That's for sure. But it also hit me organically. So it was really interesting. That
(02:01):
turns out, you know, someone else had said this concept. Previously during Covid. And I have a little nod to that today with my hat on, because, I always feel a little silly showing up for a video podcast with a hat on.
But
going back to Covid and those times where kind of anything was accepted, a lot of it for me was, I couldn't get my hair done. Couldn't get it colored, you know. The grays start poking out. And now, gosh! I just turned 50. So lots of grays poking out.
(02:30):
and even though it's not covid, life is still messy and challenging. And it was one of those days where I'm getting my hair done this afternoon. Not ideal. What am I going to do with that? And something I've learned a lot even recently is that the challenges that we face hold so much
(02:50):
information and opportunity for things ahead, and one of the best things we can do is actually use those to our benefit.
I can think of speaking engagements I've done where the sound didn't work or the fire alarm went off during a guided meditation, and instead of letting it stop us and frustrate us and get into our negative self. Talk about it. It's like, what what's the lesson in this? There's always a lesson in everything that we go through. And the more challenging, the more beautiful the lessons can be. I'm also careful to say that it doesn't mean those things are good. I'm not being dismissive.
(03:25):
although I do often bring my rose colored glasses to my presentations. I'm not suggesting that we all walk around in La La Land, but that we investigate what life has to teach us. So that notion.
you know, during Covid I lived in San Diego at the time, and I love the ocean, although I don't like going in the ocean, which is a whole nother story. But I would go down and just sit and watch these waves. There's this beautiful space in La Jolla, where these rocks go out. So I'm literally like out in the waves. And I'm laying there
(03:59):
trying to ground myself
and noticing the power of these waves that continue to come. And it was that idea that stress and challenge and change has energy and information that we can use to propel us forward if we're willing to do that and kind of become a stress detective of sorts.
(04:22):
And so I think that's something I've always tried to do. And the challenges I've had, you know, from a very early age, with anxiety and depression and panic disorder, trying to figure out what's in this for me? And then, ultimately, is there something that I can use to help others, which is also a really key point, which is
(04:43):
when we can use it to help others and lift others up.
There's a real contagious effect, and we know that nowadays
probably one of the biggest epidemics that we face is the epidemic of loneliness.
So how do we take what we're going through and not ignore it?
But really look for those lessons, balance them out with what's good in life, because we can always find something to be grateful for, but then also share that with others, the idea of not trying to fight against the waves that are coming, but learn how to use them. To propel us forward like a surfer would do if they were surfing the waves.
Govindh Jayaraman (05:23):
It's amazing. Not surprisingly. I've got a page of notes already from your preamble, so I want to go back for a second
and and and you said the challenges we face create or contain information and opportunity. And I think that
(05:44):
many times I'm probably more focused on the opportunity.
Heidi Hanna (05:48):
Then the information.
Hmm.
Govindh Jayaraman (05:51):
And I really like that. You talked about information and opportunity. How do we make sure
that when we're being a stress detective, I love that term that you use is when we're being a stress detective. How do we make sure that we're looking for the opportunity and the information as opposed to just jumping to solutions. Because I'm like, solve it. Let's let's go right.
Heidi Hanna (06:16):
You and my partner are the same in that, for sure, and you had a chance to interview him, which was wonderful. But you know for him. It's like, if there isn't a solution. If there isn't something to fix, then why are we even talking about it for me? I just I guess it's curiosity. I think curiosity is something that we can cultivate by doing things in our life that allow us to be curious. But I think that it's really like the wonderful saying by Viktor Frankl, that in between
(06:46):
stimulus and a reaction is a space, and that that is where we have the opportunity to respond instead of react. That was a really bad job for citing exactly what he said. But that's my interpretation of it.
And I think that that's something that we all struggle with, because we do live in a world that is so fast paced and so focused on opportunity and success. And how are we contributing? It's very difficult to build in that time and space to be quiet and to pause. So for me, it's kind of proactive and reactive, proactive meaning that we have to intentionally build in moments of pause
(07:30):
and get comfortable with that pause, specific example hadn't really thought about it ahead of time. But before we started our discussion I knew you were back to back to back today, and my sense was that Guy needs to go to the bathroom like I would, so rather than rush into it, try to get it done. So you can hopefully have time before the next thing starts.
(07:53):
It's really the the benefit of what we bring in our discussion is the energy we bring to the time that we have.
So if we push time as the focus, we really can't be fully present, and the outcome isn't as good as it could have been
so proactively thinking about our time versus our energy, simple things like shortening meetings, you know, building buffer time. I know we have
(08:18):
probably an hour scheduled for this. We know it's probably going to take 30 min so ideally. There's break time in between as long as we don't get too chatty, which we love to do so proactively, building that in having habits like journaling and journaling, handwritten journaling, because it slows us down.
(08:39):
starts to help our brain get more comfortable with slowing down.
And it's not in our nature. It's why I wrote the book stressaholic, because our nature is to be going and going and going and going, and sometimes we fear if we slow down we might not get going again. So we have to intentionally practice those waves. And you probably remember, if there's 1 thing I always say in my speaking engagements, remember the concept of oscillation
(09:06):
very similar to waves. Right? If we're going to be extraordinary, we have to have moments where we're strategically disengaged to recharge. So we can go back into being extraordinary. Nothing good happens when we flatline.
Govindh Jayaraman (09:20):
I love. I love that I love the moments of pause, and and you know.
in in entrepreneur circles and CEO circles and leadership circles. We hear a lot of talk around a bias to action. You've got to have a bias to action, a bias to action, bias action.
What you're not saying is.
don't have a biased action. You're not saying that you're saying, introduce a pause. Give yourself a moment, and I love this concept of pushing time. If we're always pushing time.
(09:51):
it's it's not the same thing as understanding our energy and how our energy oscillates. And
I've I've riffed on your idea of oscillation in the past to to liken it to rest between reps. You know, when you're when you're lifting, it's not the lift
that generates strength. It's the rest between reps. It's the time off. It's the
(10:14):
day off. That's when the muscle builds.
Heidi Hanna (10:17):
It's it's the only way. And and thinking about your
you know. Comment about being biased to action. My little twist on that would be be biased to smart action or intentional action or informed action. So yeah.
waves having information and opportunity. And I often say information and energy.
(10:41):
It's in those breaks that we get the time and energy and focus and attention to be intentional. So I know that's something we all talk about. And I get frustrated sometimes because it's like everyone knows mindfulness, and everyone knows we need to have intent, Yada Yada. But how do we do it?
(11:02):
We do it by being thoughtful about those pauses and those breaks. And then we create a nervous system that's more comfortable in the pause.
And as a podcast host. As a speaker, I'm sure you know, like there's nothing worse than than silence.
Govindh Jayaraman (11:20):
Yeah.
Heidi Hanna (11:21):
But in that silence is reflection. People are listening. They can't take all this in, you know, if we're just beating it at them like
having those moments to just
relax, and our nervous system needs to be relaxed. To do good work. It can be focused.
Lot of people think relaxed is like
(11:42):
doing nothing. It's not. There's just a calm energy, a focused energy that's missing. And not only in the workplace but in our personal lives as well, that's why we're so used to being on technology.
you know, when we're out to dinner with our partner, or when we're watching our kids hockey game, or whatever it might be.
Govindh Jayaraman (12:00):
Yeah. And I find it amazing that now one form of technology is never enough. You know, people are on TV with their phone. And and they're doing multiple things at the same time as if one weren't enough.
Let's talk about this idea of creating a pause and a pause is so powerful. Right it
(12:21):
a pause can mean a lot of different things. And so how? What? And you know for people listening, Heidi has worked with Ceos around the globe. So you've seen a broad cross section of leaders, entrepreneurs, difference makers who are doing things, high energy people, high action people.
(12:42):
And and this idea of creating a pause is sometimes really challenging for, for people like that.
Heidi Hanna (12:48):
Yeah.
Govindh Jayaraman (12:48):
So what is your recommendation for? How? They notice
that they need a pause, and they introduce it at that time that informed action prior to informed action.
Heidi Hanna (12:59):
Right?
So I think a lot of it comes down like, like anything behavior change. And how do we disrupt patterns in the way that we're doing things. Now.
I think one thing is to make sure we understand the power of it. And a great way to do that is, think about great leaders or people that you've experienced where you didn't feel that time pressure, because stress and rushing, and all of that is very contagious. So we're having a conversation, and I'm like riffing things off, and you're trying to get your word in, and we're going back and forth like we may not take a breath.
(13:33):
because the focus is on getting so much information out there.
But if you think about, I think about extraordinary people. And the 1st thing I thought about with the power of the pause is actually great. Comedians. No.
when to pause, you know it's like the joke is often in the pause, or the pause builds up the mystery to what the joke is going to be, to give your brain time to come up with you, what you think it's going to be, and then they say something totally absurd. And that's where humor comes from is recognizing this disruption in patterns. I also think about people like Warren Rustand, who I know you know well, and many people do, and my mentor, Jim Lair, at the Human Performance Institute that
(14:16):
conversations with them never felt rushed.
which reflects this interesting dynamic, that the other person is as important, if not more important, than whoever's coming next.
and that's very difficult. I mean, it still blows my mind that people like that can spend so much time with so many people without getting drained.
(14:41):
But I think it's that power of being able to be present. So if I were to think about what this looks like
leading an organization, for example, I think part of it is setting the tone, and leaders are super important in creating the tone and the culture of the teams that they work with.
If I were to think about a meeting as silly as this sounds. One of the big challenges we have in meetings is people wanting to feel heard so we can set up a way that everyone that wants to share is going to get a chance to share, so that we're not pushing over each other to have our voice heard. There's safety in that.
(15:16):
And that kind of safety is critical for optimal performance. So now we can just kind of rest and say, Okay, I don't have to rush this, I'm going to have a turn to be heard. Let me be thoughtful about what I want to say.
There's other ways to do it, and this popped into my mind, and I'm like, I don't know if anyone would actually do this, but as silly as like
having a speaking a microphone or a ball or a token of some sort. It could be a golf ball like. Whoever has the golf ball has the floor right? And I've seen this happen in groups that I've worked with, and it works really well, and then that person passes it to the next. But then everyone else can kind of rest and be in that moment. So I think the tone of the leader is important.
(15:57):
being able to explain. This is why we're doing this, and also, you know, not creating change too fast. So I love the idea of
you know, we're just gonna try this out. This is just an experiment. We're looking at ways to be more creative, more focused in our meetings. So we're gonna try this out and see if it works. And if anyone has other suggestions, happy to do that.
Govindh Jayaraman (16:19):
You know it's.
Heidi Hanna (16:19):
Open with something that sets the tone. So for me, it's a funny video, or a gratitude or a check in, or have, you know if there's a lot of people just have 2 people kind of check in with each other as much as we can get people to speak and feel a part of something. They're going to be more engaged, and their nervous system will be more relaxed.
Govindh Jayaraman (16:40):
I think that's, I think, setting the tone is so important because it goes back to what you said at the beginning.
Stress is contagious, but isn't calm. Contagious, too, isn't, you know, respect and
and pace. Pace is contagious whether it's super high or super low, and they both have gravity right.
Heidi Hanna (17:06):
It would be interesting to look at. And and I know with technology we'd be able to do this, but to kind of look at the pace of our speaking.
not even thinking about it ahead of time, but to compare the the timing, even the tone of our conversation with one, maybe even that we had previously. Where, you know, I keep getting this a lot. Wow! You just seem so calm. I'm like, Wow! What was I like before, you know.
(17:33):
but it is. There's a there's a shift that people can feel, and unless and I almost hesitate to say this. But unless someone is truly, clinically, a psychopath
that doesn't have empathy.
Our nervous systems are hardwired to feel what other people are feeling, because it's a signal of safety.
(17:57):
So if you're feeling stressed. My nervous system is hardwired to sense that because there must be something in our environment that's causing the stress that could be dangerous to me. Of course our nervous system was hardwired before Zoom Meetings, but still there's that effect, especially when we're in the same space.
And so it's a good thing we want to feel safe. But it's 1 of the biggest things I work with on leaders is that their biggest responsibility is to manage their energy effectively, so that they can set the tone for others to show up as their best self.
Govindh Jayaraman (18:37):
So you you talk about
learning to surf. And and we talked about comedic timing and what's sort of what? What I'm riffing on in my head is something like
leadership timing, or or there's there's a but there is a timing
to being curious. Maybe it's curiosity timing this, but there's something else there, too, where
(19:04):
timing is relevant, it's very relevant. It's very important to the tone and purpose of a conversation, and and we can infuse it right, just like a comedian can infuse it
in front of thousands of people. Nikki Glaser stormed onto the stage and took it over
(19:26):
with extraordinary timing among all the things she sharp wit, all that stuff, for sure, but her sense of timing is, and.
Heidi Hanna (19:35):
Where did she come from? She's been around for a long time.
Govindh Jayaraman (19:39):
Long time.
Heidi Hanna (19:40):
Aircraft, studying and doing all the work. And you know, we see people that we think are an overnight success. I study humor as one of my areas of research. So I know she's been around for a long time, and I really do understand comedic timing. But I think that you bring up a really important point we need to emphasize, and that is, there's probably a space
(20:03):
for curious timing and open creative flexibility timing. And there's a space for let's get
shit done if I can say that timing, because if I'm going into a situation where you know, there are things that need to get done, and we are on a deadline. And I have someone saying, we're going to pass around the the ball and have a discussion that's going to make me pretty stressed out. Actually. So I think even that
(20:32):
there's an oscillation in that in making sure we have those opportunities to slow down. And then also, when it's necessary.
have a structured agenda, and, you know, make sure we're really optimizing our time and moving forward into action. But don't let either one be static, or even oscillating with the oscillation here, which is.
Govindh Jayaraman (20:55):
Oh, yeah, it was very cool. And I think that that's also
speaks to the fact that we can't automatically assume that the
that the information that we're getting from something is the truth right? We might. We might detect somebody as being agitated for some reason.
and think that that has something to do with what we just said or what we just did. But that's where I think your your point that the way we understand the information and opportunity is to face that with curiosity, because if we face it with curiosity, we naturally understand. Hey? I noticed that that's not sitting well with you.
(21:37):
Can we talk about? Why?
Heidi Hanna (21:39):
So important. Curiosity has been one of the most
wonderful things that I've researched and try to incorporate, but would love to focus more on, because
when the brain is in a curious state, it is open, it's moving towards something. So in my Ted talk where I talk about why, I don't like going into the ocean. I mentioned that every time I get by the water I literally hear the sound of the jaws soundtrack, and it's happened since I was a little kid. I'm not even afraid of sharks. I'm just afraid of anything that I can't see that's going on, you know. So. But that
(22:19):
impact of that was so strong I could not go. I love to swim. I love going in swimming pools, but would not go in any sort of like open water, natural water, until I decided to start looking for rocks.
and that became a thing. So when I travel and I'd be by the ocean, I'd try to find one special shell or one special rock. And now I'm looking for something. And the sounds went away, and I was like, Gosh! That's really interesting, so similar to what you're saying. We make assumptions all the time.
(22:52):
and one of the powers of having that pause is to think about what else could be a factor, I mean, as a speaker, you know how many times is someone getting up and leaving? And it's like, Oh, my gosh! They hate my session, or someone looks like they're falling asleep, or someone looks upset at something we had. I can't believe the amount of self-talk that goes on in my brain when I'm giving a talk. I'm like, how am I even speaking when I'm thinking about this.
Govindh Jayaraman (23:16):
Right.
Heidi Hanna (23:17):
But most of the time it doesn't have to do with us, and if it was something that we said, it may have triggered something from, you know, their own life. They may be dealing with something that
there was a word that we said, or it could be someone else's body language next to them, or a text that they just got that's disturbing. There's so many things. So if we're in a situation where we can be curious about it. What a gift to be able to say! You know I see you. I sense something is going on. We'd love to hear more about that. We don't always have the time to do that. But there's something really powerful in that exchange. And again people feel seen and heard.
Govindh Jayaraman (23:59):
It's so interesting that that is so similar to searching for rocks
just below the surface. Right? You're you're now looking at that situation
in a totally different way on the surface you're seeing something.
but just beneath the surface there's a beautiful shell. There's a beautiful rock. There's a beautiful something.
Heidi Hanna (24:20):
Yeah.
Govindh Jayaraman (24:20):
That is just waiting to be acknowledged right. Isn't that true? The moment that we're acknowledged, the moment that we see each other is so
naturally calming, disarming even right.
Heidi Hanna (24:33):
So powerful, and it is so uncommon.
It's so uncommon, that I find
the more in tune you get with this, the more you actually can feel alone, because you realize that most people aren't kind of living in that space. Most people are putting out fires all the time, and there's no judgment in that. I mean, I feel blessed every day, and I write in my journal to have the space
(24:59):
to be intentional, about who I want to be, and how I want to show up. But there were times in my life that it literally was like, you know, how am I going to pay the bills. And how am I going to navigate this illness, or whatever's going on? There are moments of of trauma in our lives, and we have to respect that.
but once we can create the time and space, then we can look into it. And and the same applies to stress. It's part of what I call my stress mastery formula, and that is to assess and then appreciate and then adjust
(25:32):
most people assess and then adjust. And you're missing the special sauce in my mind, because when you assess what's really going on that's causing you this feeling of stress, which ultimately is just feeling like you aren't enough, or you don't have enough for what's needed. That's the gap between demand and capacity.
When you assess what it is, the next step is to appreciate the value that's at stake.
(25:57):
and that can take a little bit longer. But what that does is allow the curiosity to say what's really at stake here? Is it my sense of self? Is it my safety, my finances, my health, my family. There's a million things. But once we get curious, then we can take action
from an informed place instead of just this is the problem. Here's the solution. I'm going to go do it. And that creates a pattern where we typically just repeat the cycle instead of leaning in and gathering the other information.
Govindh Jayaraman (26:31):
I love this idea, not only assessing but appreciating it. It reminds me this morning I had a
a call with a coaching client, and
and we were. We were talking. And you said, You're glowing today, what's going on? And I said, I have the glow of of a 50 year old man who was able to do a chest workout, and my shoulder isn't hurting and.
Heidi Hanna (26:55):
You're talking to me all this time
because you gotta talk to me.
Govindh Jayaraman (26:59):
Oh, yeah, yeah, and that, too.
But yeah, but but but
but you know, when you get so it's interesting. And so I said, on those days. I just leave so grateful that I was able to do this workout that I was able to lift heavy and not be in pain today, and I appreciate that so much that it just it spills out over the rest of almost everything else I do.
(27:24):
and.
Heidi Hanna (27:25):
And even then to take it one step further, and you probably did this. You can also appreciate the pain.
Govindh Jayaraman (27:31):
Exactly. That was the next thing.
Heidi Hanna (27:32):
Helping. Oh, sorry I cut you off.
Govindh Jayaraman (27:34):
No, no, no, exactly.
Heidi Hanna (27:35):
Like you can appreciate not only the relief of the pain.
but the pain was actually protecting you from something where you could have done greater damage right? So even in that there's a benefit to it. Instead of getting mad at the pain, or mad at yourself, or mad at your age or whatever it is.
Yeah, we can appreciate the pain and the solution and the relief.
Govindh Jayaraman (27:59):
Yeah. And how fortunate I am to even be in a position where I can go there and experience that
absolutely. I think I think there's so much there, I wonder
so so I know I know your connection to
Jim Lehrer. I mean great work that he's done around rewriting their story.
(28:22):
and and the value of rewriting your story, and how powerful that can be
is that a tool that people can use to insert this pause, insert this opportunity to assess and appreciate and then adjust. Based on these things. How would they you that.
Heidi Hanna (28:41):
Well, there's a couple places, I think that one, and I don't think we give this enough time ironically. Just a couple of days ago I was looking at. I'm updating my linkedin courses this year, and I was looking at some feedback, and someone had made a comment about like, What is this 8th grade? Why are we talking about storytelling? And I'm like, Oh, they so miss this.
(29:04):
Everything the stories we tell ourselves about who we are and what we're experiencing. I mean, it's the fundamental part. So part of it is, what's the story you're telling yourself? That's allowing you to stay in these patterns, and I often refer to it as the big, but because there's always a but
I know I need to take more time off, but I know I should be eating better. But you know, it's like there's always a reason. And if we don't identify that we're not getting out of that pattern because our brain is convinced that this is true. Like you said, some stuff just isn't true. We have to challenge our inner dialogue, our framework of looking at the world all the time
(29:47):
to make sure it aligns with not only who we are who we want to be. So. The story part to me is just it's so powerful. And even every step of that process.
but especially when it comes to that solution, we can identify that. But that we're telling ourselves and then correct it. And one of the things that Jim talked about was, if this continues, which was the next step right? So I know I should be eating better, but I don't have time. If this continues, and kind of playing the script forward.
(30:23):
my health will suffer, my performance will suffer. Whatever that thing is, I may not be here to watch my daughter get married
a lot of times. These are super powerful. So then or and so, or however you want to do that right? What's the new story? And so this is something we can practice every day again going back to the silly little hat, my little Covid Reef. San Diego hat is, you know, I can't show up without my hair done. This is being recorded.
(30:54):
you know. There was a time I was giving a presentation, and I really wanted to exercise first, st but I knew I either had to exercise or wash my hair. I don't know why hair keeps coming up. It's a girl thing, I'm sure, Govind, I know you.
Govindh Jayaraman (31:07):
I solved it enough.
Heidi Hanna (31:08):
But it's just kind of funny what our brain does to
provide us with a way out that's justified. Instead of saying, no one cares. If I exercise in that 30 min, instead of washing and doing my hair, my energy will be better. My message will be better for the people I'm working with. They could care less
(31:30):
what my hair looks like. And I even that day use that illustration as like, it's funny if you really stop and think about what you're telling yourself how silly it is. But that value part comes in right with what's more important to me is is a polished exterior more important. And, by the way.
no judgment, if it is for people, or is my energy, my attitude, my focus, what I get from exercise, my self-esteem is that more important? And then we make a decision based on that. Whatever that value is.
Govindh Jayaraman (32:05):
And can you?
Is it possible for people who are learning to surf to fake surfing.
Heidi Hanna (32:14):
Oh, really interesting idea!
It's funny! Because.
as my partner, Mark and I were kind of processing what he was going to be talking about with you in an interview.
he said. Something like, you know. Fake it till you make it. And that's such an interesting idea, because I do think that sometimes
(32:37):
we have to believe in ourselves, maybe more than we
truly feel. We deserve to some extent, you know, like getting on stage for me is always so weird, because I don't think I deserve to be on stage more than anyone else. So I will start criticizing myself and getting caught up in that kind of stuff. Can I fake it till I make it? I don't think so. I think that I can take steps
(33:04):
in the right direction, but I still think that again it's kind of like. Look at what the waves have to teach you. If you fake surfing, you might be able to
stop from drowning, or you might, but you'd still have to find some solutions to improve yourself ultimately, if you wanted to be a surfer. It's why so many people don't take on big challenges, being an entrepreneur, you know, starting a business, putting yourself out there. There's a lot of negative criticism. There's a lot of hardships that we go through in that that people don't understand until they do it.
(33:40):
so I don't think you fake it till you make it from an ignorant place.
but I think that you can believe in your potential to keep learning and to be honest about that for the longest time. When I started presenting, which was something I never wanted to do.
My go to was just to say, That's a great question, and I don't have the answer. But I'm going to find it for you. And so I always saw that not as a threat to me as the so-called expert, but as to someone on a journey with someone else, and I would always follow up on that, and I knew that over time that would help me get to this place.
(34:16):
where I would have more information to share. So I don't know. I mean, that's a it's an interesting idea. I think we unfortunately live in a world with a lot of
fake stuff and fake people.
and so it's not. It's not something that I would encourage, I guess, from where I'm sitting right now.
Govindh Jayaraman (34:37):
Yeah. And and I think it's really.
I think it's really important that people hear that because the words you chose were really careful.
You can learn to surf. Learning doesn't mean mastering. Learning doesn't mean being perfect. Learning doesn't mean
knowing. Learning means learning. It means asking questions, being curious, not knowing the answer, and I love. I've always loved that about
(35:04):
being in a room where you're speaking, Heidi, because when you're doing that, if you don't know something.
You empower the room
by saying, I don't know the answer to that, but I'm going to look into it and come back to you, and you're sincere about that. You're not. It's not lip service.
Heidi.
Heidi Hanna (35:23):
And we'll just say again that the key to all of this is neuroplasticity, and that's a fancy word for the fact that the brain changes and adapts, it adapts in good ways, it adapts in bad ways. Learning is the key to that learning, curiosity. Creativity is the key to keeping our brain growing in ways that we want. It's the key to longevity. It's the key to resilience. It's the key to everything.
(35:48):
So I think, having that mindset and doing as much as you can to keep that top of mind any sort of creative activities and slowing down. And the story has to be that this is as important as anything else. That's where story comes back.
So it's not that downtime is lazy, or you know, if I'm choosing to go to the gym, instead of choosing to be with my family. That's a bad choice. What I'm really choosing is to go to the gym to be a better parent or friend, or whatever it is for the people that matter most to me. So story is really powerful in that.
Govindh Jayaraman (36:26):
Yeah. And I think you you addressed that in in an earlier napkin where you said talked about putting your mask on
Heidi. I'm so grateful for the time that we share. I'm grateful for the previous paper napkins, and this one I'm very grateful for our conversation.
and in that gratitude paying forward. John Ruland passed away earlier this year or late last year, and he gave to us in our 1st season of paper, napkin, wisdom, a great napkin what you appreciate appreciates, and in honor of him, and paying forward that legacy.
(36:59):
we've been asking every guest to end with something you appreciate, somebody you want to shout out any gratitude you want to give into the world?
What would that be?
Heidi Hanna (37:08):
I have a lot, and I and I write them down every day and right now in my life
there are 2 beings that have really changed my life for the better. One is my partner, Mark, who you've had a chance to have a conversation with, and we met when we were both going through pretty horrific times in our life. And so it's just been a wonderful journey now over 4 years together, and every day is fun, and the other one. And I say, being is
(37:41):
anyone who knows me. If you follow me on social media, you know who I'm going to say my cat, Buddy.
best decision I've ever made. I live alone. I've lived alone most of my life. I struggle a lot with loneliness and depression, and this cat is just such a gift from God. He makes me laugh. He keeps me curious. He makes me feel loved. And you know there's a lot of great research about pets.
(38:07):
And one thing that's key in that that's kind of funny is that in order to get the benefit of having pets, you have to treat them like part of the family. So if anyone needs a good example of that, you can look at my social media.
Govindh Jayaraman (38:20):
Yeah, that's very true. Pets have always been a part of our family, and we've always been grateful for them as well.
Thank you, Heidi.
Heidi Hanna (38:27):
Thank you.
Heidi. Hannah, welcome back! 3 P. Back to paper. Napkin. Wisdom, excited to have you back here.
Heidi Hanna (00:08):
Thank you. What an honor I love talking with you. And I'll take whatever excuse a podcast. You know, meeting up in our many, many travels, but it's been a while, so it's lovely to see you. You look fantastic.
Govindh Jayaraman (00:21):
So, do you? Yeah, you look great, and you seem very.
very chill, very, very you, which is really nice to see, and absolutely for everybody listening. Heidi is in rare error in paper, napkin, wisdom, world. There are
2 other people who have ever been on paper, napkin wisdom. 3 or more times. Heidi is one of them, clearly one of my favorite people, but beyond that she has so much wisdom to share about things that I think are really important. Given, you know, the pressure and noise that is around the world today. These are challenging times for a lot of people and economically challenging times politically challenging times, philosophically challenging times, and I think that everybody
(01:06):
could use a little grace right now. And and I think this is a very important subject. So thank you for sharing this with me.
Heidi Hanna (01:13):
Thank you.
Govindh Jayaraman (01:14):
So Heidi shared a paper napkin, and for those of you who haven't seen it, you have to get online and check it out, and don't just listen to it, but she says you can't stop the waves, but you can learn to surf, and in the top right corner there's a beautiful sun, and there are some waves in the bottom left. Why did you share that with me?
Heidi Hanna (01:33):
Oh, gosh!
That I have to give credit, I believe. Originally the saying came from Jon Kabat-zin, who was one of the kind of pioneers of mindfulness. Meditation has done a lot of great research, and really kind of opened up the Western world to what has become such a key tool in my tool belt. That's for sure. But it also hit me organically. So it was really interesting. That
(02:01):
turns out, you know, someone else had said this concept. Previously during Covid. And I have a little nod to that today with my hat on, because, I always feel a little silly showing up for a video podcast with a hat on.
But
going back to Covid and those times where kind of anything was accepted, a lot of it for me was, I couldn't get my hair done. Couldn't get it colored, you know. The grays start poking out. And now, gosh! I just turned 50. So lots of grays poking out.
(02:30):
and even though it's not covid, life is still messy and challenging. And it was one of those days where I'm getting my hair done this afternoon. Not ideal. What am I going to do with that? And something I've learned a lot even recently is that the challenges that we face hold so much
(02:50):
information and opportunity for things ahead, and one of the best things we can do is actually use those to our benefit.
I can think of speaking engagements I've done where the sound didn't work or the fire alarm went off during a guided meditation, and instead of letting it stop us and frustrate us and get into our negative self. Talk about it. It's like, what what's the lesson in this? There's always a lesson in everything that we go through. And the more challenging, the more beautiful the lessons can be. I'm also careful to say that it doesn't mean those things are good. I'm not being dismissive.
(03:25):
although I do often bring my rose colored glasses to my presentations. I'm not suggesting that we all walk around in La La Land, but that we investigate what life has to teach us. So that notion.
you know, during Covid I lived in San Diego at the time, and I love the ocean, although I don't like going in the ocean, which is a whole nother story. But I would go down and just sit and watch these waves. There's this beautiful space in La Jolla, where these rocks go out. So I'm literally like out in the waves. And I'm laying there
(03:59):
trying to ground myself
and noticing the power of these waves that continue to come. And it was that idea that stress and challenge and change has energy and information that we can use to propel us forward if we're willing to do that and kind of become a stress detective of sorts.
(04:22):
And so I think that's something I've always tried to do. And the challenges I've had, you know, from a very early age, with anxiety and depression and panic disorder, trying to figure out what's in this for me? And then, ultimately, is there something that I can use to help others, which is also a really key point, which is
(04:43):
when we can use it to help others and lift others up.
There's a real contagious effect, and we know that nowadays
probably one of the biggest epidemics that we face is the epidemic of loneliness.
So how do we take what we're going through and not ignore it?
But really look for those lessons, balance them out with what's good in life, because we can always find something to be grateful for, but then also share that with others, the idea of not trying to fight against the waves that are coming, but learn how to use them. To propel us forward like a surfer would do if they were surfing the waves.
Govindh Jayaraman (05:23):
It's amazing. Not surprisingly. I've got a page of notes already from your preamble, so I want to go back for a second
and and and you said the challenges we face create or contain information and opportunity. And I think that
(05:44):
many times I'm probably more focused on the opportunity.
Heidi Hanna (05:48):
Then the information.
Hmm.
Govindh Jayaraman (05:51):
And I really like that. You talked about information and opportunity. How do we make sure
that when we're being a stress detective, I love that term that you use is when we're being a stress detective. How do we make sure that we're looking for the opportunity and the information as opposed to just jumping to solutions. Because I'm like, solve it. Let's let's go right.
Heidi Hanna (06:16):
You and my partner are the same in that, for sure, and you had a chance to interview him, which was wonderful. But you know for him. It's like, if there isn't a solution. If there isn't something to fix, then why are we even talking about it for me? I just I guess it's curiosity. I think curiosity is something that we can cultivate by doing things in our life that allow us to be curious. But I think that it's really like the wonderful saying by Viktor Frankl, that in between
(06:46):
stimulus and a reaction is a space, and that that is where we have the opportunity to respond instead of react. That was a really bad job for citing exactly what he said. But that's my interpretation of it.
And I think that that's something that we all struggle with, because we do live in a world that is so fast paced and so focused on opportunity and success. And how are we contributing? It's very difficult to build in that time and space to be quiet and to pause. So for me, it's kind of proactive and reactive, proactive meaning that we have to intentionally build in moments of pause
(07:30):
and get comfortable with that pause, specific example hadn't really thought about it ahead of time. But before we started our discussion I knew you were back to back to back today, and my sense was that Guy needs to go to the bathroom like I would, so rather than rush into it, try to get it done. So you can hopefully have time before the next thing starts.
(07:53):
It's really the the benefit of what we bring in our discussion is the energy we bring to the time that we have.
So if we push time as the focus, we really can't be fully present, and the outcome isn't as good as it could have been
so proactively thinking about our time versus our energy, simple things like shortening meetings, you know, building buffer time. I know we have
(08:18):
probably an hour scheduled for this. We know it's probably going to take 30 min so ideally. There's break time in between as long as we don't get too chatty, which we love to do so proactively, building that in having habits like journaling and journaling, handwritten journaling, because it slows us down.
(08:39):
starts to help our brain get more comfortable with slowing down.
And it's not in our nature. It's why I wrote the book stressaholic, because our nature is to be going and going and going and going, and sometimes we fear if we slow down we might not get going again. So we have to intentionally practice those waves. And you probably remember, if there's 1 thing I always say in my speaking engagements, remember the concept of oscillation
(09:06):
very similar to waves. Right? If we're going to be extraordinary, we have to have moments where we're strategically disengaged to recharge. So we can go back into being extraordinary. Nothing good happens when we flatline.
Govindh Jayaraman (09:20):
I love. I love that I love the moments of pause, and and you know.
in in entrepreneur circles and CEO circles and leadership circles. We hear a lot of talk around a bias to action. You've got to have a bias to action, a bias to action, bias action.
What you're not saying is.
don't have a biased action. You're not saying that you're saying, introduce a pause. Give yourself a moment, and I love this concept of pushing time. If we're always pushing time.
(09:51):
it's it's not the same thing as understanding our energy and how our energy oscillates. And
I've I've riffed on your idea of oscillation in the past to to liken it to rest between reps. You know, when you're when you're lifting, it's not the lift
that generates strength. It's the rest between reps. It's the time off. It's the
(10:14):
day off. That's when the muscle builds.
Heidi Hanna (10:17):
It's it's the only way. And and thinking about your
you know. Comment about being biased to action. My little twist on that would be be biased to smart action or intentional action or informed action. So yeah.
waves having information and opportunity. And I often say information and energy.
(10:41):
It's in those breaks that we get the time and energy and focus and attention to be intentional. So I know that's something we all talk about. And I get frustrated sometimes because it's like everyone knows mindfulness, and everyone knows we need to have intent, Yada Yada. But how do we do it?
(11:02):
We do it by being thoughtful about those pauses and those breaks. And then we create a nervous system that's more comfortable in the pause.
And as a podcast host. As a speaker, I'm sure you know, like there's nothing worse than than silence.
Govindh Jayaraman (11:20):
Yeah.
Heidi Hanna (11:21):
But in that silence is reflection. People are listening. They can't take all this in, you know, if we're just beating it at them like
having those moments to just
relax, and our nervous system needs to be relaxed. To do good work. It can be focused.
Lot of people think relaxed is like
(11:42):
doing nothing. It's not. There's just a calm energy, a focused energy that's missing. And not only in the workplace but in our personal lives as well, that's why we're so used to being on technology.
you know, when we're out to dinner with our partner, or when we're watching our kids hockey game, or whatever it might be.
Govindh Jayaraman (12:00):
Yeah. And I find it amazing that now one form of technology is never enough. You know, people are on TV with their phone. And and they're doing multiple things at the same time as if one weren't enough.
Let's talk about this idea of creating a pause and a pause is so powerful. Right it
(12:21):
a pause can mean a lot of different things. And so how? What? And you know for people listening, Heidi has worked with Ceos around the globe. So you've seen a broad cross section of leaders, entrepreneurs, difference makers who are doing things, high energy people, high action people.
(12:42):
And and this idea of creating a pause is sometimes really challenging for, for people like that.
Heidi Hanna (12:48):
Yeah.
Govindh Jayaraman (12:48):
So what is your recommendation for? How? They notice
that they need a pause, and they introduce it at that time that informed action prior to informed action.
Heidi Hanna (12:59):
Right?
So I think a lot of it comes down like, like anything behavior change. And how do we disrupt patterns in the way that we're doing things. Now.
I think one thing is to make sure we understand the power of it. And a great way to do that is, think about great leaders or people that you've experienced where you didn't feel that time pressure, because stress and rushing, and all of that is very contagious. So we're having a conversation, and I'm like riffing things off, and you're trying to get your word in, and we're going back and forth like we may not take a breath.
(13:33):
because the focus is on getting so much information out there.
But if you think about, I think about extraordinary people. And the 1st thing I thought about with the power of the pause is actually great. Comedians. No.
when to pause, you know it's like the joke is often in the pause, or the pause builds up the mystery to what the joke is going to be, to give your brain time to come up with you, what you think it's going to be, and then they say something totally absurd. And that's where humor comes from is recognizing this disruption in patterns. I also think about people like Warren Rustand, who I know you know well, and many people do, and my mentor, Jim Lair, at the Human Performance Institute that
(14:16):
conversations with them never felt rushed.
which reflects this interesting dynamic, that the other person is as important, if not more important, than whoever's coming next.
and that's very difficult. I mean, it still blows my mind that people like that can spend so much time with so many people without getting drained.
(14:41):
But I think it's that power of being able to be present. So if I were to think about what this looks like
leading an organization, for example, I think part of it is setting the tone, and leaders are super important in creating the tone and the culture of the teams that they work with.
If I were to think about a meeting as silly as this sounds. One of the big challenges we have in meetings is people wanting to feel heard so we can set up a way that everyone that wants to share is going to get a chance to share, so that we're not pushing over each other to have our voice heard. There's safety in that.
(15:16):
And that kind of safety is critical for optimal performance. So now we can just kind of rest and say, Okay, I don't have to rush this, I'm going to have a turn to be heard. Let me be thoughtful about what I want to say.
There's other ways to do it, and this popped into my mind, and I'm like, I don't know if anyone would actually do this, but as silly as like
having a speaking a microphone or a ball or a token of some sort. It could be a golf ball like. Whoever has the golf ball has the floor right? And I've seen this happen in groups that I've worked with, and it works really well, and then that person passes it to the next. But then everyone else can kind of rest and be in that moment. So I think the tone of the leader is important.
(15:57):
being able to explain. This is why we're doing this, and also, you know, not creating change too fast. So I love the idea of
you know, we're just gonna try this out. This is just an experiment. We're looking at ways to be more creative, more focused in our meetings. So we're gonna try this out and see if it works. And if anyone has other suggestions, happy to do that.
Govindh Jayaraman (16:19):
You know it's.
Heidi Hanna (16:19):
Open with something that sets the tone. So for me, it's a funny video, or a gratitude or a check in, or have, you know if there's a lot of people just have 2 people kind of check in with each other as much as we can get people to speak and feel a part of something. They're going to be more engaged, and their nervous system will be more relaxed.
Govindh Jayaraman (16:40):
I think that's, I think, setting the tone is so important because it goes back to what you said at the beginning.
Stress is contagious, but isn't calm. Contagious, too, isn't, you know, respect and
and pace. Pace is contagious whether it's super high or super low, and they both have gravity right.
Heidi Hanna (17:06):
It would be interesting to look at. And and I know with technology we'd be able to do this, but to kind of look at the pace of our speaking.
not even thinking about it ahead of time, but to compare the the timing, even the tone of our conversation with one, maybe even that we had previously. Where, you know, I keep getting this a lot. Wow! You just seem so calm. I'm like, Wow! What was I like before, you know.
(17:33):
but it is. There's a there's a shift that people can feel, and unless and I almost hesitate to say this. But unless someone is truly, clinically, a psychopath
that doesn't have empathy.
Our nervous systems are hardwired to feel what other people are feeling, because it's a signal of safety.
(17:57):
So if you're feeling stressed. My nervous system is hardwired to sense that because there must be something in our environment that's causing the stress that could be dangerous to me. Of course our nervous system was hardwired before Zoom Meetings, but still there's that effect, especially when we're in the same space.
And so it's a good thing we want to feel safe. But it's 1 of the biggest things I work with on leaders is that their biggest responsibility is to manage their energy effectively, so that they can set the tone for others to show up as their best self.
Govindh Jayaraman (18:37):
So you you talk about
learning to surf. And and we talked about comedic timing and what's sort of what? What I'm riffing on in my head is something like
leadership timing, or or there's there's a but there is a timing
to being curious. Maybe it's curiosity timing this, but there's something else there, too, where
(19:04):
timing is relevant, it's very relevant. It's very important to the tone and purpose of a conversation, and and we can infuse it right, just like a comedian can infuse it
in front of thousands of people. Nikki Glaser stormed onto the stage and took it over
(19:26):
with extraordinary timing among all the things she sharp wit, all that stuff, for sure, but her sense of timing is, and.
Heidi Hanna (19:35):
Where did she come from? She's been around for a long time.
Govindh Jayaraman (19:39):
Long time.
Heidi Hanna (19:40):
Aircraft, studying and doing all the work. And you know, we see people that we think are an overnight success. I study humor as one of my areas of research. So I know she's been around for a long time, and I really do understand comedic timing. But I think that you bring up a really important point we need to emphasize, and that is, there's probably a space
(20:03):
for curious timing and open creative flexibility timing. And there's a space for let's get
shit done if I can say that timing, because if I'm going into a situation where you know, there are things that need to get done, and we are on a deadline. And I have someone saying, we're going to pass around the the ball and have a discussion that's going to make me pretty stressed out. Actually. So I think even that
(20:32):
there's an oscillation in that in making sure we have those opportunities to slow down. And then also, when it's necessary.
have a structured agenda, and, you know, make sure we're really optimizing our time and moving forward into action. But don't let either one be static, or even oscillating with the oscillation here, which is.
Govindh Jayaraman (20:55):
Oh, yeah, it was very cool. And I think that that's also
speaks to the fact that we can't automatically assume that the
that the information that we're getting from something is the truth right? We might. We might detect somebody as being agitated for some reason.
and think that that has something to do with what we just said or what we just did. But that's where I think your your point that the way we understand the information and opportunity is to face that with curiosity, because if we face it with curiosity, we naturally understand. Hey? I noticed that that's not sitting well with you.
(21:37):
Can we talk about? Why?
Heidi Hanna (21:39):
So important. Curiosity has been one of the most
wonderful things that I've researched and try to incorporate, but would love to focus more on, because
when the brain is in a curious state, it is open, it's moving towards something. So in my Ted talk where I talk about why, I don't like going into the ocean. I mentioned that every time I get by the water I literally hear the sound of the jaws soundtrack, and it's happened since I was a little kid. I'm not even afraid of sharks. I'm just afraid of anything that I can't see that's going on, you know. So. But that
(22:19):
impact of that was so strong I could not go. I love to swim. I love going in swimming pools, but would not go in any sort of like open water, natural water, until I decided to start looking for rocks.
and that became a thing. So when I travel and I'd be by the ocean, I'd try to find one special shell or one special rock. And now I'm looking for something. And the sounds went away, and I was like, Gosh! That's really interesting, so similar to what you're saying. We make assumptions all the time.
(22:52):
and one of the powers of having that pause is to think about what else could be a factor, I mean, as a speaker, you know how many times is someone getting up and leaving? And it's like, Oh, my gosh! They hate my session, or someone looks like they're falling asleep, or someone looks upset at something we had. I can't believe the amount of self-talk that goes on in my brain when I'm giving a talk. I'm like, how am I even speaking when I'm thinking about this.
Govindh Jayaraman (23:16):
Right.
Heidi Hanna (23:17):
But most of the time it doesn't have to do with us, and if it was something that we said, it may have triggered something from, you know, their own life. They may be dealing with something that
there was a word that we said, or it could be someone else's body language next to them, or a text that they just got that's disturbing. There's so many things. So if we're in a situation where we can be curious about it. What a gift to be able to say! You know I see you. I sense something is going on. We'd love to hear more about that. We don't always have the time to do that. But there's something really powerful in that exchange. And again people feel seen and heard.
Govindh Jayaraman (23:59):
It's so interesting that that is so similar to searching for rocks
just below the surface. Right? You're you're now looking at that situation
in a totally different way on the surface you're seeing something.
but just beneath the surface there's a beautiful shell. There's a beautiful rock. There's a beautiful something.
Heidi Hanna (24:20):
Yeah.
Govindh Jayaraman (24:20):
That is just waiting to be acknowledged right. Isn't that true? The moment that we're acknowledged, the moment that we see each other is so
naturally calming, disarming even right.
Heidi Hanna (24:33):
So powerful, and it is so uncommon.
It's so uncommon, that I find
the more in tune you get with this, the more you actually can feel alone, because you realize that most people aren't kind of living in that space. Most people are putting out fires all the time, and there's no judgment in that. I mean, I feel blessed every day, and I write in my journal to have the space
(24:59):
to be intentional, about who I want to be, and how I want to show up. But there were times in my life that it literally was like, you know, how am I going to pay the bills. And how am I going to navigate this illness, or whatever's going on? There are moments of of trauma in our lives, and we have to respect that.
but once we can create the time and space, then we can look into it. And and the same applies to stress. It's part of what I call my stress mastery formula, and that is to assess and then appreciate and then adjust
(25:32):
most people assess and then adjust. And you're missing the special sauce in my mind, because when you assess what's really going on that's causing you this feeling of stress, which ultimately is just feeling like you aren't enough, or you don't have enough for what's needed. That's the gap between demand and capacity.
When you assess what it is, the next step is to appreciate the value that's at stake.
(25:57):
and that can take a little bit longer. But what that does is allow the curiosity to say what's really at stake here? Is it my sense of self? Is it my safety, my finances, my health, my family. There's a million things. But once we get curious, then we can take action
from an informed place instead of just this is the problem. Here's the solution. I'm going to go do it. And that creates a pattern where we typically just repeat the cycle instead of leaning in and gathering the other information.
Govindh Jayaraman (26:31):
I love this idea, not only assessing but appreciating it. It reminds me this morning I had a
a call with a coaching client, and
and we were. We were talking. And you said, You're glowing today, what's going on? And I said, I have the glow of of a 50 year old man who was able to do a chest workout, and my shoulder isn't hurting and.
Heidi Hanna (26:55):
You're talking to me all this time
because you gotta talk to me.
Govindh Jayaraman (26:59):
Oh, yeah, yeah, and that, too.
But yeah, but but but
but you know, when you get so it's interesting. And so I said, on those days. I just leave so grateful that I was able to do this workout that I was able to lift heavy and not be in pain today, and I appreciate that so much that it just it spills out over the rest of almost everything else I do.
(27:24):
and.
Heidi Hanna (27:25):
And even then to take it one step further, and you probably did this. You can also appreciate the pain.
Govindh Jayaraman (27:31):
Exactly. That was the next thing.
Heidi Hanna (27:32):
Helping. Oh, sorry I cut you off.
Govindh Jayaraman (27:34):
No, no, no, exactly.
Heidi Hanna (27:35):
Like you can appreciate not only the relief of the pain.
but the pain was actually protecting you from something where you could have done greater damage right? So even in that there's a benefit to it. Instead of getting mad at the pain, or mad at yourself, or mad at your age or whatever it is.
Yeah, we can appreciate the pain and the solution and the relief.
Govindh Jayaraman (27:59):
Yeah. And how fortunate I am to even be in a position where I can go there and experience that
absolutely. I think I think there's so much there, I wonder
so so I know I know your connection to
Jim Lehrer. I mean great work that he's done around rewriting their story.
(28:22):
and and the value of rewriting your story, and how powerful that can be
is that a tool that people can use to insert this pause, insert this opportunity to assess and appreciate and then adjust. Based on these things. How would they you that.
Heidi Hanna (28:41):
Well, there's a couple places, I think that one, and I don't think we give this enough time ironically. Just a couple of days ago I was looking at. I'm updating my linkedin courses this year, and I was looking at some feedback, and someone had made a comment about like, What is this 8th grade? Why are we talking about storytelling? And I'm like, Oh, they so miss this.
(29:04):
Everything the stories we tell ourselves about who we are and what we're experiencing. I mean, it's the fundamental part. So part of it is, what's the story you're telling yourself? That's allowing you to stay in these patterns, and I often refer to it as the big, but because there's always a but
I know I need to take more time off, but I know I should be eating better. But you know, it's like there's always a reason. And if we don't identify that we're not getting out of that pattern because our brain is convinced that this is true. Like you said, some stuff just isn't true. We have to challenge our inner dialogue, our framework of looking at the world all the time
(29:47):
to make sure it aligns with not only who we are who we want to be. So. The story part to me is just it's so powerful. And even every step of that process.
but especially when it comes to that solution, we can identify that. But that we're telling ourselves and then correct it. And one of the things that Jim talked about was, if this continues, which was the next step right? So I know I should be eating better, but I don't have time. If this continues, and kind of playing the script forward.
(30:23):
my health will suffer, my performance will suffer. Whatever that thing is, I may not be here to watch my daughter get married
a lot of times. These are super powerful. So then or and so, or however you want to do that right? What's the new story? And so this is something we can practice every day again going back to the silly little hat, my little Covid Reef. San Diego hat is, you know, I can't show up without my hair done. This is being recorded.
(30:54):
you know. There was a time I was giving a presentation, and I really wanted to exercise first, st but I knew I either had to exercise or wash my hair. I don't know why hair keeps coming up. It's a girl thing, I'm sure, Govind, I know you.
Govindh Jayaraman (31:07):
I solved it enough.
Heidi Hanna (31:08):
But it's just kind of funny what our brain does to
provide us with a way out that's justified. Instead of saying, no one cares. If I exercise in that 30 min, instead of washing and doing my hair, my energy will be better. My message will be better for the people I'm working with. They could care less
(31:30):
what my hair looks like. And I even that day use that illustration as like, it's funny if you really stop and think about what you're telling yourself how silly it is. But that value part comes in right with what's more important to me is is a polished exterior more important. And, by the way.
no judgment, if it is for people, or is my energy, my attitude, my focus, what I get from exercise, my self-esteem is that more important? And then we make a decision based on that. Whatever that value is.
Govindh Jayaraman (32:05):
And can you?
Is it possible for people who are learning to surf to fake surfing.
Heidi Hanna (32:14):
Oh, really interesting idea!
It's funny! Because.
as my partner, Mark and I were kind of processing what he was going to be talking about with you in an interview.
he said. Something like, you know. Fake it till you make it. And that's such an interesting idea, because I do think that sometimes
(32:37):
we have to believe in ourselves, maybe more than we
truly feel. We deserve to some extent, you know, like getting on stage for me is always so weird, because I don't think I deserve to be on stage more than anyone else. So I will start criticizing myself and getting caught up in that kind of stuff. Can I fake it till I make it? I don't think so. I think that I can take steps
(33:04):
in the right direction, but I still think that again it's kind of like. Look at what the waves have to teach you. If you fake surfing, you might be able to
stop from drowning, or you might, but you'd still have to find some solutions to improve yourself ultimately, if you wanted to be a surfer. It's why so many people don't take on big challenges, being an entrepreneur, you know, starting a business, putting yourself out there. There's a lot of negative criticism. There's a lot of hardships that we go through in that that people don't understand until they do it.
(33:40):
so I don't think you fake it till you make it from an ignorant place.
but I think that you can believe in your potential to keep learning and to be honest about that for the longest time. When I started presenting, which was something I never wanted to do.
My go to was just to say, That's a great question, and I don't have the answer. But I'm going to find it for you. And so I always saw that not as a threat to me as the so-called expert, but as to someone on a journey with someone else, and I would always follow up on that, and I knew that over time that would help me get to this place.
(34:16):
where I would have more information to share. So I don't know. I mean, that's a it's an interesting idea. I think we unfortunately live in a world with a lot of
fake stuff and fake people.
and so it's not. It's not something that I would encourage, I guess, from where I'm sitting right now.
Govindh Jayaraman (34:37):
Yeah. And and I think it's really.
I think it's really important that people hear that because the words you chose were really careful.
You can learn to surf. Learning doesn't mean mastering. Learning doesn't mean being perfect. Learning doesn't mean
knowing. Learning means learning. It means asking questions, being curious, not knowing the answer, and I love. I've always loved that about
(35:04):
being in a room where you're speaking, Heidi, because when you're doing that, if you don't know something.
You empower the room
by saying, I don't know the answer to that, but I'm going to look into it and come back to you, and you're sincere about that. You're not. It's not lip service.
Heidi.
Heidi Hanna (35:23):
And we'll just say again that the key to all of this is neuroplasticity, and that's a fancy word for the fact that the brain changes and adapts, it adapts in good ways, it adapts in bad ways. Learning is the key to that learning, curiosity. Creativity is the key to keeping our brain growing in ways that we want. It's the key to longevity. It's the key to resilience. It's the key to everything.
(35:48):
So I think, having that mindset and doing as much as you can to keep that top of mind any sort of creative activities and slowing down. And the story has to be that this is as important as anything else. That's where story comes back.
So it's not that downtime is lazy, or you know, if I'm choosing to go to the gym, instead of choosing to be with my family. That's a bad choice. What I'm really choosing is to go to the gym to be a better parent or friend, or whatever it is for the people that matter most to me. So story is really powerful in that.
Govindh Jayaraman (36:26):
Yeah. And I think you you addressed that in in an earlier napkin where you said talked about putting your mask on
Heidi. I'm so grateful for the time that we share. I'm grateful for the previous paper napkins, and this one I'm very grateful for our conversation.
and in that gratitude paying forward. John Ruland passed away earlier this year or late last year, and he gave to us in our 1st season of paper, napkin, wisdom, a great napkin what you appreciate appreciates, and in honor of him, and paying forward that legacy.
(36:59):
we've been asking every guest to end with something you appreciate, somebody you want to shout out any gratitude you want to give into the world?
What would that be?
Heidi Hanna (37:08):
I have a lot, and I and I write them down every day and right now in my life
there are 2 beings that have really changed my life for the better. One is my partner, Mark, who you've had a chance to have a conversation with, and we met when we were both going through pretty horrific times in our life. And so it's just been a wonderful journey now over 4 years together, and every day is fun, and the other one. And I say, being is
(37:41):
anyone who knows me. If you follow me on social media, you know who I'm going to say my cat, Buddy.
best decision I've ever made. I live alone. I've lived alone most of my life. I struggle a lot with loneliness and depression, and this cat is just such a gift from God. He makes me laugh. He keeps me curious. He makes me feel loved. And you know there's a lot of great research about pets.
(38:07):
And one thing that's key in that that's kind of funny is that in order to get the benefit of having pets, you have to treat them like part of the family. So if anyone needs a good example of that, you can look at my social media.
Govindh Jayaraman (38:20):
Yeah, that's very true. Pets have always been a part of our family, and we've always been grateful for them as well.
Thank you, Heidi.
Heidi Hanna (38:27):
Thank you.
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