In Episode 241 of Paper Napkin Wisdom, I reconnect with someone whose growth journey I’ve witnessed firsthand—Marina Byezhanova. She’s not just a remarkable entrepreneur and thought leader; she’s also someone I’ve had the privilege to coach during her early years in the Entrepreneurs’ Organization Accelerator program. Today, she’s the co-founder of Brand of a Leader, a global personal branding agency that helps CEOs and founders show up powerfully and authentically in a noisy world.
Marina's journey is one of identity, courage, and clarity. Born in Ukraine, she immigrated to Canada as a teenager, carrying the weight of reinvention on her shoulders. Her story isn't just about entrepreneurship—it's about the transformation that happens when we stop hiding and start standing in our truth.
Her Paper Napkin Wisdom is handwritten and bold: "Stand out. Speak up. Be radically authentic." At the top, she’s penned “BOAL”—the acronym for her company, Brand of a Leader—a testament to how deeply this message is woven into her life and work.
Marina’s message came from years of personal experience and introspection. “It took me many years to realize that this is my north star,” she shared. “And over time, as I started a personal branding agency for founders and CEOs, it became their north star too.”
She talked openly about her early years trying to fit in—years of hoping no one would ask where she was from, years of trying to blend in rather than stand out. “All I wanted was for people not to hear my accent when I said hello,” she told me. But over time, Marina discovered the power in not just showing up—but showing up loudly, proudly, and with purpose.
Her transformation wasn’t overnight. It was iterative, painful at times, and vulnerable. But in that vulnerability, she found strength. “There is something really compelling when we are radically authentic,” she said, emphasizing that radical authenticity isn’t just a marketing strategy—it’s a way of being.
What stood out in our conversation is Marina’s clarity of purpose: her belief that personal branding isn’t about ego or vanity—it’s about alignment. It’s about letting the outside world see the leader you truly are on the inside. In a digital age where we’re all building brands—intentionally or not—her insight is both a wake-up call and a guiding light.
She reminded us that s
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Govindh Jayaraman (00:02):
Marina Bejanava. Welcome to paper, napkin wisdom. I am really really happy to see you today.
Marina Byezhanova (00:10):
Not as happy as I am. I am happier.
Govindh Jayaraman (00:14):
So for for anybody listening. You will not be able to.
it will jump out at you. I am very fond of Marina Marina was a member of a program that I'm very fond of, called Eo accelerator entrepreneurs, organization accelerator program.
and she was in my group many years ago, and she has gone on to grow her business. So accelerator is for emerging businesses as they entrepreneurs grow them into a million dollars, and beyond is the goal of the program, and she has done that. She has reinvented herself, and it is a beautiful, and you said it in a beautiful card. You sent me a full circle moment to see you here in this way. So welcome to paper, napkin wisdom, Marina.
Marina Byezhanova (01:03):
It's a reunion. Thank you so much for having me.
Govindh Jayaraman (01:06):
So you shared a beautiful paper napkin with me at the top. It says BOAL. For brand of a leader, and and you wrote, stand out, speak up, be radically authentic.
Why did you share that with me?
Marina Byezhanova (01:20):
It's become my life motto, and it took me very many years to realize that that is my north star for myself. And then, over the years as I started a personal branding agency for founders and Ceos that became the North Star for them as well. I spent many years as many people hiding in the shadows of what could be my identity then? My business as well. Many years trying to blend in this speaks more to my immigrant journey
(01:50):
be nervous to fully be myself that imposter syndrome, and am I going to be accepted? Question? And then, when I realized that there's true power and being able to stand out, to be able to have a voice and speak up, that there is something really compelling when we are radically authentic. This became my personal byline.
Govindh Jayaraman (02:11):
All right. So let's talk about. I mean you didn't come by it. The 1st
attempt right? Then this is this is an iterative Nacum, you didn't.
This isn't the 1st thing you came up with. So let's talk about that journey.
What did it feel like when you just started? I mean you're you're the immigrant journey is a real one. I'm I'm I'm close to it. My parents went through that. You did it yourself.
(02:34):
What was it like, cause you
to a certain where you don't want to stand out right. You kind of want to fit in, don't you?
Marina Byezhanova (02:41):
All you want is fit in, and I was also a teenager when we came to Canada. So all I wanted to do is find the way to blend in, and all I wanted to do was when I would meet someone and say hello for their 1st question, not to be, where are you from?
Because to me that was a signal that I can't even say the word Hello! Without a thick accent that prompts. You know the inquiry. You know you're clearly not from here, you know right now where I am right now, physically, the studio that I'm recording this conversation from steps away from the college where I went when we came to Canada. And I just I was reflecting on it today, Govin, as I was having a coffee here when we 1st came, and I would go to that school, how I just
(03:22):
so desperately wanted to fit in, and I just so desperately just felt so uncomfortable in my own identity. And then years passed.
I don't always fit in, but I'm able to stand out in a way that feels comfortable and still creates that sense of acceptance which is, which is so important.
Govindh Jayaraman (03:41):
So so to me, I find that really interesting, I mean. And I had that, too, even as a 1st generation, right? Because
there weren't a lot of brown people around when I was growing up in Ottawa. And and
It was obvious that I was not like everybody. So standing out is something that you have to lean into, and as an entrepreneur and building business, it's
(04:07):
an advantage to stand out.
So when was it that you realize that you could flip that on its head.
Marina Byezhanova (04:17):
Well, 1st of all, I realized that no matter how hard I tried, I was always, you know, an odd duck in the room, and I got a lot of you know comments about it, and often people would say, You know, oh, you know Marina is interesting, but they didn't mean it as interesting as a compelling thing they just meant just hmm. You know, she's just different. The 1st time that I felt
(04:39):
normal in being different was actually an entrepreneur's organization event. It was the 1st event that I attended where I walked into a room, and I felt
I'd always felt a little bit weird and a little bit odd, but there I felt more. On the square side of things. I met a lot more people who were a lot odder than me, and I fell in love. And that's when I learned about the accelerator program and joined it.
(05:01):
So that was the 1st time. And then I think over the years as I realized that I was not blending in that wasn't working out for me. I just couldn't get the style right when I was going to school, and when I was, you know, a younger woman just could never find. I would always say something awkward, and people would look at me never knew a cultural reference. Still, don't. And I always mess up metaphors, you know, like I'll always like, I'll say saying, and it's almost there like I almost
(05:26):
got it.
Mess up a word, and you can. You mess it up a little bit? It's dead. And so I realized that I would just start embracing those quirks, but I think it's when I became an entrepreneur that I slowly began to embrace it. But it certainly was not an overnight thing, and it was a long journey.
Govindh Jayaraman (05:42):
Yeah, and then and then speak up. So
you're not a shy in my experience. You're not a shy person. And and so it's interesting that you have, as your napkin is a part of your philosophy
as a reminder to speak up.
But I don't think you're just talking about sharing your opinion. I think you're talking about something more than that. What what are you talking about when you say Stand out and speak up. What is that about.
Marina Byezhanova (06:10):
So speaking of is about having a voice and having your voice being heard, you know, to me when I was born it was still a Soviet Union right. I was born in Ukraine at the time. It was still a Soviet Union, and there was that culture of being silenced. I grew up with that culture of just always being careful with what you say, always making sure that you're filtering
(06:30):
and a kid, you not go. And when we moved to Canada. I was 16. I was walking around thinking, I can have a voice. I can speak up. This is democracy. I was 16 years old walking around on the streets on Montreal, thinking about democracy. My 15 year old is not thinking any such thing. She's thinking about going to Brandon Melville, which we discussed before about our kids so very different experience. But then I realized that as much as I could.
(06:56):
I could speak up. I could constitutionally have a voice. I was so accented, and people had such a hard time understanding me that
technically I had a voice in practice, nobody had time to listen to the end of what I was saying, and to me, I think that when we're able to express ourselves, when we're able to express who we are and what we stand for, it's so powerful. And what's interesting is what I've observed over the years is, you know, that is my part of the journey, and why, having a voice is important to me. But I've learned that so many people, so many entrepreneurs, so many business owners, especially in North America, silence themselves
(07:33):
all the time.
Who wants to hear what I have to say? What do I have to say? That's so unique. If I put myself out there and my voice is heard. People are going to think that I'm self promotional, and me me, I just want to be behind my business building the business. What if I say the wrong thing? And I'm canceled? I hear those things all the time, and that's why it became to me it switched from being part of my personal story to something that became a motivating factor behind launching my business.
Govindh Jayaraman (08:03):
That's you know, that's really interesting.
You wanted to speak up, but couldn't, and people didn't want to hear from you.
And then you're talking about this dynamic that many leaders have, that
they don't want to speak up. They're afraid to speak up, and, you know, like the fear of being canceled is real.
(08:26):
I think I think a lot of people feel or sharing what they think about anything, because
the repercussions are pretty violent. Coming from the behind the keyboard. You know the Twitter no worries.
The Facebook police are pretty pretty vigilant.
Marina Byezhanova (08:45):
I know I've experienced it. I know.
Govindh Jayaraman (08:47):
So is that, do you think that's true in all of North America? Or do you think there are dynamics that are different between Canadians in the Us. And in Europe, because you have your hands in various places. Is this a leadership thing, or is this observation that people are afraid to speak out, or reluctant to speak up
(09:09):
universal right now.
Marina Byezhanova (09:11):
I'm finding that it's universal, with some exceptions. So it's universal, you know, barring people who are more narcissistic, or, you know, are just looking to become social media influencers. But those are not the people that we're talking about. I'm talking about, you know, real Ceos, real business owners, building real businesses, not looking to catch likes, don't care about likes aren't on social media to begin with.
(09:32):
aren't so sure that they should be engaging in speaking engagements or being on podcasts, not sure what to do it, that desire to that self questioning of, do I have anything of value to say, or I don't want to be like those people is universal. Then when people start coming out of the shadows of their businesses, the degree to which they're comfortable talking about themselves, and not only talking about their business
(09:57):
that becomes cultural. Certainly people in the States are a lot more comfortable with being self-promotional than I don't know. Some of the Asian cultures. Canada is always somewhere in between and depends on the person. But what blows my mind the most, it just it actually physically hurts. My heart is when I'm speaking with somebody.
in my opinion, just brilliant, and successful, and has built this incredible business, and has a heart of gold and so much wisdom. We have conversations. I'm learning something all the time. And then I say to the person like, why aren't you everything you're sharing right now, why aren't you sharing it more publicly? Again, speaking, podcasting social media, whatever is comfortable.
(10:34):
And the same person who just blew my mind with so much wisdom goes. Oh, come on, Marina, who wants to hear from me?
That breaks my heart.
Govindh Jayaraman (10:44):
Yeah. One of the thing I say often, and it's not mine. I even don't even know where it came from is that
the only people without imposter syndrome are imposters.
Marina Byezhanova (10:56):
I love that. I'm going to use that too. I love it because true.
Govindh Jayaraman (11:00):
It's so true, right? Because if the people who are faking it are faking it, and they've got nothing to hide because they're just faking it. Everybody else.
Marina Byezhanova (11:08):
So true.
Govindh Jayaraman (11:09):
Everybody else is actually scared of being themselves, which brings us to the next point.
And and so but hold on. I want to go back, because what you said is, who wants to hear from me?
What got you over that for you?
You know you have a cultural dynamic coming
from the former Soviet Union to Canada language barrier.
(11:34):
All of these kinds. You're already automatically standing out, whether you wanted to or not.
So how? How did you get over the who wants to hear from me?
Marina Byezhanova (11:46):
This might sound narcissistic or not caring, but in the spirit of complete transparency that to me wasn't the motivation, the motivation wasn't the audience. I just felt that having a voice and being able to be heard is just such a privilege and an asset.
I just wanted that experience. I just wanted that like I had the dream that I'm going to stand on this stage, and I'm going to be saying something. Well, obviously, I value enough. So people don't walk out, but people are going to listen to me, and they're going to hear behind and beyond the accent they're going to hear and see beyond certain beliefs they might have because of my name or whatnot.
(12:25):
and just that I was working for years and years towards that stage, virtual and physical that I would be on where
I could speak up, and I could stand out in a way that was a pleasant standing out where people, you know. Have respect for what you're saying, not people going. Oh, what that was just, I guess. Part of personal development, personal growth, self-development, journey for me.
Govindh Jayaraman (12:51):
This is what, I wondered, coming from the former Soviet Union.
coming to a place that was, you know, a very free democracy. You're coming to a democracy. I wondered if you
saw it as a privilege to speak out, and you were going to exercise that privilege that was.
Marina Byezhanova (13:08):
That's exactly it. That's exactly it. It's a huge privilege, and it's scary to me how much we're giving it up right now in the Western world because of the fears of, you know, as you said, very valid being canceled or judged, or anything else. But it is the privilege, if we don't have our voices. If we don't have our true identities, then what do we have? Then? We're just one mass and one blob that you know there's nothing multidimensional there.
Govindh Jayaraman (13:36):
So so in this, in this
fear of speaking up in this.
in all of that. And I and I know you work with leaders.
Is there room to get it wrong
like? Are we allowed to get it wrong if we if we misstep and say something wrong? I mean, I think a lot of people are afraid of that. A lot of people don't want to share what they think.
(13:59):
especially in these times, because of the fear of cancellation.
for not not for things that are horrible like. If you do horrible things, if you assault or somebody. Yeah, there, there should be repercussions. These are criminal acts.
But if you share an opinion that's different from everybody else's.
should we should we have the ability to walk back those opinions and and learn from our mistakes.
Marina Byezhanova (14:25):
So look, it's a complex question, because there are different things that are at play here. So number one, I think it's very important when we are putting ourselves out there to not become opinion machines and not begin to opine on just any hot topic dure. Where, then, you have to backtrack because you didn't have a fully formulated position that you can stand firm in, and then you don't have to backtrack when we are deciding to put ourselves
(14:50):
out there. So let's say we're looking to build our visibility as a CEO or as a founder, which is what my agency does. We 1st define? Well, what are going to be the topics that you want to be associated with, and those should not be all topics. They should also be relevant to what you are building as your leadership brand. Again, the mistake happens is when people start opining, and they're like, Oh, yes, no. I didn't really mean that, because there was no
(15:15):
firmly formulated
thought, position, and opinion. Number one, number 2. The more we put ourselves out there, the more there are going to be keyboard warriors, not only keyboard, it's going to be in physical audiences as well. I've experienced lots in the speaking engagements I've done and online as well. The thing is the percentage of people. And the more we are radically authentic, the more people are going to dislike us. There are going to be people who are going to dislike us, or who are going to repel against us.
(15:44):
But it's going to be. You're going to have disproportionately if you are indeed
not a sociopath or psychopath, and you're an interesting person, and you know you have something of a value to bring. There's going to be disproportionately higher amount of people that are going to become raving fans. And listen. We know that in our businesses, right when we're building businesses, we're not building something that's for everything. There's no point of view. There's no clear brand positioning, there's no. The core values are diluted, and it's the same thing as everyone else is saying. That's not a business that becomes successful. The business that differentiates itself by taking a position
(16:17):
will dispel people right? We'll dispel. That's fine, but it will attract the right people. It's the same that happens with founder visibility once it's built. But again, there has to be strategy before execution, so that you're not finding yourself in hot waters, because you're kind of just giving random opinions on a whole array of topics.
Govindh Jayaraman (16:34):
Yeah. And and isn't it true
that right now I love this idea of an opinion machine, especially in today's time, right? Because today's time. There's a machine underneath everything. AI, that's just churning out stuff quickly and and in the pace, the speed of strategy. And this is something that I spent a lot of time on
(16:56):
with groups nowadays is the speed of strategy has accelerated massively, so with this massive acceleration
people sometimes feel the need to jump into a conversation
before they actually understand how they feel about it
(17:17):
before they actually understand the facts
that are relevant to them, and being radically authentic
means that you have to deal with it from a position of reality for you, not just a position of superficial knowledge, and everybody's just one inch below the surface today.
Marina Byezhanova (17:36):
It's it's it's harder to get deep.
Govindh Jayaraman (17:39):
For a lot of people, because it's moving so fast. Don't you find that true as well.
Marina Byezhanova (17:43):
I absolutely agree with you, and it's also become just the cultural thing that as soon as there is a movement of some kind, for example, then, if you have any kind of visibility, you have to, you know, express your position on it, and I think that that's a huge mistake, and I've been called out in the past. I don't remember what movement was happening at the time. There's always a new movement, you know, every 6 months, and somebody called me out and said, Well, why aren't you posting anything about it? Why aren't you staying in your position?
(18:08):
And I said, because this topic is completely unrelated to anything I ever talked about. So it's either just again, as you said, like one inch below the surface, or maybe not even pure surface. And I'm just going to weigh in. And I don't have a clear position. Why do that? And that's why, when we work with leaders, we define what we call content pillars. We define topics that they want to be associated with. What's hard for leaders that we work with is to
(18:32):
steer away from only focusing on business topics. When you're building your visibility as a human, not as just a corporate brand. There has to be a human element of yourself that you're showing to others. The good thing is, if you're not looking to become a lifestyle influencer, you don't have to show every single facet and part of your life and opinions and everything you don't have to do that there has to be something that you're talking about, that humanizes you once you define that
(18:57):
you stay in that lane. So if there's something going on, and you're thinking of opining on it, if it aligns with under the umbrella of that humanizing topic that you want to be associated with. Then that's fair game, and it makes sense to say something. And if it doesn't, then sometimes it's really great to sit those things out to you.
Govindh Jayaraman (19:15):
What I find amazing, because I've
had the privilege of being able to watch your journey for a long time.
Not from the beginning, obviously, but from a long time. And and I've seen a lot of it
when you're talking about the tools and the processes that you've built around brand of leader.
(19:37):
These are things that you needed to build for yourself.
Marina Byezhanova (19:41):
Right.
Govindh Jayaraman (19:42):
You you. This is the business you needed
before. And now you're making it available because you've learned all of these things.
How how valuable is it to speak from that core
place of strength that I mean? This is deeply meaningful to you
(20:04):
because of where you came from? Because of why you came here because of the experiences you had. So this is not brand of a leader.
This is something bigger. There's a bigger purpose here for you.
How important is that to where you are now?
Marina Byezhanova (20:22):
Hugely to me. I mean the business that I own now, brand of a leader. It's really incomplete, and it's 1 of those things they say, you know, if you were to do something, not get paid for it, what would you do? And it would be this, it would be to inspire people to find their voice and to push them into, you know, a little bit more spotlight than they're comfortable with. That is our purpose, as we stated at brand of a leader to help people realize
(20:46):
and express their greatness. And this is my personal. Why, too, so the alignment is quite perfect. Because what happened. Govin is, as I told you, when I started putting myself out there. And I started speaking. And I started leveraging linkedin, a lot and guesting on podcasts. I started my own Linkedin Live Series, where I was interviewing people.
I was doing it, as I told you, from a completely selfish standpoint. I wasn't doing it to serve the business. I was doing it to serve my own
(21:11):
chip on the shoulder in many ways, you know. Yes, I can. But what happened was as I was creating visibility around myself.
I started noticing incredible benefits happening to the business
because I was being interviewed by different publications, and I was in different podcasts, and I was contributing on different things. The SEO of the business started going up organically, because, as I was being interviewed, it wasn't just me, Marina Bajana. It was me, Marina Majano, owner of business. ABC, and here's the website. So with all of the different places pointing to our website, SEO started going up. All of a sudden we started attracting higher caliber of clients. We started attracting people
(21:49):
who said, Oh, I want to work for you. I want to work within your organization, started seeing all of these benefits, and then said.
Well, why aren't other business owners doing this? This is an incredible marketing strategy to support all of the other marketing that you're doing in the business. And now a lot of the people that we work with. Probably Govan. Most of the people we work with they don't have the desire and the fuel that I had to speak up and to stand out, but they're realizing that when you do as a CEO, the benefits that that brings to the business
(22:19):
and serving the marketing function of the business, those become really compelling. And so a lot of our clients see that visibility as a necessary evil. I've always seen it as the biggest prize we can have, and the biggest you know privilege, as we said, they see it as the necessary evil. But
we get very different, you know Roi emotionally when we work with them and see them step in stepping out there.
Govindh Jayaraman (22:43):
Yeah, there are 2 really big things that I think you said that are important one. And I don't want to miss out on this radically authentic. You use the word radically authentic
for a reason why? Why? Radically.
Marina Byezhanova (22:56):
Because just authentic doesn't, doesn't mean mean a lot, I think. And also I think the word has been so diluted now, because people often say authentic, meaning like a nice person.
and you can be.
I'm hesitating to say Donald Trump, and people getting very, very agitated at the mention. But Donald Trump is radically authentic.
(23:18):
He's not a likable guy
just across the board, just universally likable right? Not Mother Teresa, but he's radically authentic. He's radically himself, and that repels a whole lot of people. But listen! That brings him a whole lot of raving fans, too. That's an example. I think when we're radically authentic. That means we truly truly are ourselves, and we're willing to take the backlash that that can bring, because, again, not everybody likes us when we truly show who we are and how we are.
Govindh Jayaraman (23:48):
Yeah, I think people are scared of it, too, a little bit. And I also like this piece that you said that
push people into the spotlight a little more than they're comfortable with right? And and I think that growth happens from that discomfort.
And and I think that's what you're suggesting right? Just a little more than you're comfortable with. It's just a little bit out of your comfort. Zone is where the growth happens. Is that what you're suggesting.
Marina Byezhanova (24:12):
And that's the secret, because often so often what happens, you know, by the time we do no outbound sales at brand of a leader all of the clients that come to us. They came in because of our marketing visibility, things like that. And so by the time they come to us. They've had to cross that internal barrier and they go. Okay.
I'm ready. I'm going to do this. I'm doing this. Let's do it. And then what do we work with with founders, Ceos and Ceos at that level? When you've decided to do something, you're going from 0 to 100 and you go. I'm all in
(24:45):
okay. I'm going to do this. Let's do everything. I'm going to write a book. And I'm going to speak. And I'm going to launch a podcast, I'll be on podcasts, on social media. I'll do everything. And we say, No, don't do any of that one thing. Start with one thing, choose one platform that feels
feels the, you know, like a path of least resistance for a lot of people that is Linkedin, because it's written content. That's easier. There are people who say, No, I'd rather be speaking. I'd rather be podcasting start with that one thing. It's uncomfortable enough if spotlight is not your thing, but a lot of growth happens there. When that is consistent and you're comfortable with it.
(25:22):
Add a second platform to it if you must, but
less is more again, we're not looking to become social media influencers and increase followers and catch likes. We're looking to support our businesses and do something of substance and value. So baby steps.
Govindh Jayaraman (25:38):
I love this, and I love that. You're 100% inbound. There's another comment that I want to another conversation I want to have about this idea
is, I believe, and you've heard me say this, that sales are the transfer of trust right when people believe that you'll do the right thing for them, even if it's not you
that's trust. And isn't it true today that in business
(26:05):
the leadership of a company, the leadership of the business. The brand of the business
are the people, and those people need to be visible
so that people can build this trust. And it's just different type of funnel instead of it's a big funnel. You're just taking a little slice of the market, but it's the ones that are really aligned with you. You're raving fans, as you called it.
(26:26):
They come right to you when you do that, and you're living that example by focusing on inbound
with the way you've built your model. Is that is that correct?
Marina Byezhanova (26:39):
Yes, and from different angles as well. So 1st of all, research shows that over 70% of people trust an organization more or more likely to buy from an organization when their executive team, particularly the CEO, has visibility, and so they can see what that organization stands for. It is a question of trust
number one, number 2, I think more and more. It's across all layers of the organization, because it's not always the CEO that is responsible, for example, for I don't know even supporting the sales function directly but definitely, not hiring. So as a leader that is hiring for a specific department of an organization, that visibility that you have, the trust that you build in that becomes really important.
(27:19):
Listen. We had one client who received a message from someone saying I was going to apply to work for your organization. But then I read your articles and your content. And I realized you're not the type of a person I'd want to work for.
and our client called us really excited, saying, Thank God! Because I'd rather I'm so happy. We found it out before we invested in each other. You know, time and us financially. Now we found it out before, and then, of course, she's attracting people who are right, who are aligned with her type of leadership. So that's important, you know, it really also goes beyond it. Because now
(27:49):
there's such a fundamental shift that's happening in how people customers are finding organizations. We're shifting from Google search
to asking Gpt.
And when that was happening, Govin, I got really nervous, because, as I said, all of our sales are inbound. Our number one source of client acquisition is referrals and number 2, Google search, and with completely organic. We never paid for ads. So with really strong high quality content, we're page one. We're top of Page great. All of a sudden, people are not asking Google anymore, who's the best personal branding agency. They're going to Gpt.
(28:25):
And then we saw that we started getting more and more prospects come to us, saying that they found us in Gpt.
But what's interesting and fascinating is that Google search searches by organizations when you're looking for expertise.
Gpt searches by expertise, by thought leadership, which is a human being, and so when people find us in Gpt, it says, Marina Berjanova is an expert and a leader in personal branding for genx Ceos and entrepreneurs. She owns an agency called brand of a leader, which is such a fundamental shift, and it shows how, for so many organizations, especially in services, especially
(29:04):
that shift becomes monumental where that thought, leadership beyond building trust which we were talking about, which is really important, is also being able to be found, which is equally as important as well.
Govindh Jayaraman (29:14):
Yeah. So people are finding people based in a large language model people are finding people based on their expertise as opposed to simply just their brand or their organization. And I think that's a really powerful point, especially when you think about 70% of the North American economy is services based. Right? So that's a huge percentage.
(29:35):
And and when we're thinking about that.
that's powerful, that if if we're not speaking up, if we're not standing out, if we're not being radically authentic.
And and I noticed that you're also not saying
say radically authentic things you're saying. Be radically authentic.
(29:56):
I think it's I think you're leaving something on the table, especially in a large language model world, right in an expertise driven world
right.
Marina Byezhanova (30:06):
Very much so. And, by the way, I'm so glad that you picked up on that being not just saying and words matter, and that's really important, and that's why I speak up. But it's being, because then it's with everything you know. I remember speaking, it's how we dress. It's how we present ourselves. It's how we behave. It's everything. I remember speaking at an event. And actually it was an accelerator event. But I wasn't in the accelerator program anymore.
(30:29):
And there were 2 women who, after the event, when I spoke, came up to the organizers and said we were really impressed with her. We didn't expect her to be smart, and then when she presented.
we realized that she was smart, and why they thought of that is because I dressed casually for the speaking engagement wore a toque. I wore sneakers, and so they made that assumption. And then, when I was sharing that feedback with someone, and somebody was saying, well, maybe you should rethink that then. And they said, No, when I speak I'll let words speak, speak for myself, let them rethink their biases, not me rethink who I am and how I present myself. I am going to be radically authentic.
(31:04):
I'm going to be myself, and if some people walk out because they see me, and they think I'm not going to be intelligent then so be it as well. But so it goes across the board, and yes, it comes with a lot of we do catch a lot of criticism. We do catch a lot of opinions from people. But again
the Raven fans become a much bigger group.
Govindh Jayaraman (31:24):
Yeah, I think that's really powerful. And and I really do.
I really do believe that we are our best in the world when we are for others, what we need for ourselves.
Marina Byezhanova (31:34):
And.
Govindh Jayaraman (31:36):
I think that what you've done is
give everyone what you wanted. Give everyone you know. Maybe
the podium that you wanted or the support that you needed when when you started to find your voice, when you you know all those many years ago when you came here as a teenager. Well, I mean, I say, all those many years ago I really mean like last week, or whatever it was.
Marina Byezhanova (32:00):
Right, just just arrived. You know what's really fascinating. And I think you're going to appreciate this this quick story. So it's exactly as you described. That was my journey. I did this for myself, then realized this could be a business we could help. Others processed out everything that I kind of intuitively did for myself with a lot of expertise, but we processed it out. We packaged it out, and then last month
(32:25):
what I did is I hired my own agency, brandable leader, to now represent me as client to see. Well, how can now we elevate what I'm doing, and my visibility further.
which A.
Helped me to be on the other side helped me uncover inefficiencies in the business that has been fascinating and eye-opening. So a lot of things to fix. But B, it's really interesting to see. Okay, well, now that I'm here, what can my own agency do to bring me there? Which has been a really interesting really interesting exercise.
Govindh Jayaraman (32:57):
Yeah, that's really fascinating. I want to talk about the speed of strategy and the speed of AI. What is AI doing
to your business
to short, you know. What are you? What are you afraid of, and what's the opportunity? What are you concerned about?
First.st
Marina Byezhanova (33:15):
So when generative AI 1st hit our industry. So 1st we were in denial as many other organizations. I spoke with a lot of other marketing organizations, because a lot of what we do is content. Creation right? We write content for clients, we write articles, we write Linkedin posts with them.
and so when it 1st hit, and I started speaking with other agency owners, they were saying, No, it's not good enough. The quality is not good. We don't need to worry about it. But I was worried because we started losing clients, because not only well, 1st of all, and this is what I was telling my business partner at the time. I'm like, okay. So we just got a competitor.
(33:48):
It's called Chatgpt.
The competitor is not as good as us.
but it's getting better, and it's free, or it's 20 bucks. So I said, we can go on the loser game and start telling everyone how we're a better competitor. But it was also so trendy for everyone to use. Gpt right like everyone was like, Oh, I'm using it. I'm using it. You were techy if you were. And so that became a big threat. Number one, number 2, our big threat was, are people going to find us in Google search? Those were the threats, and so we sat on it for a good 3 months, kind of competing with the tool.
(34:21):
And then we decided to make a radical change in the business. And what we did is we completely embraced AI. We are completely implementing AI mindset across the organization with everyone on the team.
We are actually using AI to create content. But we have a system behind it where we're not asking. So, for example, we're creating content for you. And let's say it's going to be on. I don't know business growth. And I'm going to say we're writing a post on business growth. What are the 3 things a CEO should do to grow a business, and then it spits out something generic. No, we interview you. You're the one that gives thought leadership. AI helps follow the certain structure. Follow your tone voice, etc.
(34:59):
We let go of our entire writing team.
This was very radical change for us. We were a team of 24, we let go of 7 people. That is substantial, that is substantial change. But then we invested into just most expensive top notch, incredible human editing.
which then becomes also the brand voice for our clients, and is, you know, we'll remember Govan doesn't like a dash. He likes an end dash he doesn't like, you know this. He likes that. And so that's what we did. So huge. We made a huge shift there as far as content creation. And then just our productivity is through the roof, because we do use the tools more and more and more across the board.
Govindh Jayaraman (35:39):
That's great. So you you combine the challenge and opportunity into one place.
Many years ago, when we launched paper, napkin Wisdom, a very early friend of the show was John Ruland. John Rulan tragically passed away
earlier this year. He gave us one of the most profound napkins, which was what you appreciate, appreciates.
(36:01):
And that was a very simple idea around gratitude. And we've been ending every episode this season in tribute to John and in tribute of his message to us to carry it forward and pay it forward with some gratitude. So we ask all our guests.
is there someone you'd like to shout out, and someone that you'd like to appreciate before we go today.
Marina Byezhanova (36:26):
1st of all, that is absolutely beautiful. What a beautiful tribute! I've been a huge, also student of John's, and his book has been transformational to me and my business as many, many of us.
I will give my gratitude to you, Govan, and I'm not just doing this because I'm on your show. I've done it on others as well. I've spoken about you to people since that 1st year when we worked together over a decade ago, I mean last week, because, you know, we don't age, and my gratitude to you is it's twofold one. There were things that you shared
(37:01):
in that classroom setting with us, and also you took the time to share with me one on one that shaped a lot of my thinking and stuck with me, and that says a lot because I'm an obsessive learner. I'm always, you know, with people who are smart and brilliant. I'm always reading something. I'm always studying something doing a Master's degree. But your degree of wisdom is incredible, and you've said things that have stuck with me ever since.
(37:25):
Your desire to, you know, give back to the organization, to entrepreneurs organization and be there to guide us, but beyond that, to give that one-on-one time and to be available and to share that wisdom to me was an inspiring example also of a leader that I would want to be. And so my gratitude is to you, and for you having me on the show today, which I've been so excited to be doing.
Govindh Jayaraman (37:48):
Well, that's overwhelming, and it's beautiful to hear. So thank you, Marina.
Thank you for joining me today. This was a pleasure.
Marina Byezhanova (37:56):
Thank you so much for having me.
Marina Bejanava. Welcome to paper, napkin wisdom. I am really really happy to see you today.
Marina Byezhanova (00:10):
Not as happy as I am. I am happier.
Govindh Jayaraman (00:14):
So for for anybody listening. You will not be able to.
it will jump out at you. I am very fond of Marina Marina was a member of a program that I'm very fond of, called Eo accelerator entrepreneurs, organization accelerator program.
and she was in my group many years ago, and she has gone on to grow her business. So accelerator is for emerging businesses as they entrepreneurs grow them into a million dollars, and beyond is the goal of the program, and she has done that. She has reinvented herself, and it is a beautiful, and you said it in a beautiful card. You sent me a full circle moment to see you here in this way. So welcome to paper, napkin wisdom, Marina.
Marina Byezhanova (01:03):
It's a reunion. Thank you so much for having me.
Govindh Jayaraman (01:06):
So you shared a beautiful paper napkin with me at the top. It says BOAL. For brand of a leader, and and you wrote, stand out, speak up, be radically authentic.
Why did you share that with me?
Marina Byezhanova (01:20):
It's become my life motto, and it took me very many years to realize that that is my north star for myself. And then, over the years as I started a personal branding agency for founders and Ceos that became the North Star for them as well. I spent many years as many people hiding in the shadows of what could be my identity then? My business as well. Many years trying to blend in this speaks more to my immigrant journey
(01:50):
be nervous to fully be myself that imposter syndrome, and am I going to be accepted? Question? And then, when I realized that there's true power and being able to stand out, to be able to have a voice and speak up, that there is something really compelling when we are radically authentic. This became my personal byline.
Govindh Jayaraman (02:11):
All right. So let's talk about. I mean you didn't come by it. The 1st
attempt right? Then this is this is an iterative Nacum, you didn't.
This isn't the 1st thing you came up with. So let's talk about that journey.
What did it feel like when you just started? I mean you're you're the immigrant journey is a real one. I'm I'm I'm close to it. My parents went through that. You did it yourself.
(02:34):
What was it like, cause you
to a certain where you don't want to stand out right. You kind of want to fit in, don't you?
Marina Byezhanova (02:41):
All you want is fit in, and I was also a teenager when we came to Canada. So all I wanted to do is find the way to blend in, and all I wanted to do was when I would meet someone and say hello for their 1st question, not to be, where are you from?
Because to me that was a signal that I can't even say the word Hello! Without a thick accent that prompts. You know the inquiry. You know you're clearly not from here, you know right now where I am right now, physically, the studio that I'm recording this conversation from steps away from the college where I went when we came to Canada. And I just I was reflecting on it today, Govin, as I was having a coffee here when we 1st came, and I would go to that school, how I just
(03:22):
so desperately wanted to fit in, and I just so desperately just felt so uncomfortable in my own identity. And then years passed.
I don't always fit in, but I'm able to stand out in a way that feels comfortable and still creates that sense of acceptance which is, which is so important.
Govindh Jayaraman (03:41):
So so to me, I find that really interesting, I mean. And I had that, too, even as a 1st generation, right? Because
there weren't a lot of brown people around when I was growing up in Ottawa. And and
It was obvious that I was not like everybody. So standing out is something that you have to lean into, and as an entrepreneur and building business, it's
(04:07):
an advantage to stand out.
So when was it that you realize that you could flip that on its head.
Marina Byezhanova (04:17):
Well, 1st of all, I realized that no matter how hard I tried, I was always, you know, an odd duck in the room, and I got a lot of you know comments about it, and often people would say, You know, oh, you know Marina is interesting, but they didn't mean it as interesting as a compelling thing they just meant just hmm. You know, she's just different. The 1st time that I felt
(04:39):
normal in being different was actually an entrepreneur's organization event. It was the 1st event that I attended where I walked into a room, and I felt
I'd always felt a little bit weird and a little bit odd, but there I felt more. On the square side of things. I met a lot more people who were a lot odder than me, and I fell in love. And that's when I learned about the accelerator program and joined it.
(05:01):
So that was the 1st time. And then I think over the years as I realized that I was not blending in that wasn't working out for me. I just couldn't get the style right when I was going to school, and when I was, you know, a younger woman just could never find. I would always say something awkward, and people would look at me never knew a cultural reference. Still, don't. And I always mess up metaphors, you know, like I'll always like, I'll say saying, and it's almost there like I almost
(05:26):
got it.
Mess up a word, and you can. You mess it up a little bit? It's dead. And so I realized that I would just start embracing those quirks, but I think it's when I became an entrepreneur that I slowly began to embrace it. But it certainly was not an overnight thing, and it was a long journey.
Govindh Jayaraman (05:42):
Yeah, and then and then speak up. So
you're not a shy in my experience. You're not a shy person. And and so it's interesting that you have, as your napkin is a part of your philosophy
as a reminder to speak up.
But I don't think you're just talking about sharing your opinion. I think you're talking about something more than that. What what are you talking about when you say Stand out and speak up. What is that about.
Marina Byezhanova (06:10):
So speaking of is about having a voice and having your voice being heard, you know, to me when I was born it was still a Soviet Union right. I was born in Ukraine at the time. It was still a Soviet Union, and there was that culture of being silenced. I grew up with that culture of just always being careful with what you say, always making sure that you're filtering
(06:30):
and a kid, you not go. And when we moved to Canada. I was 16. I was walking around thinking, I can have a voice. I can speak up. This is democracy. I was 16 years old walking around on the streets on Montreal, thinking about democracy. My 15 year old is not thinking any such thing. She's thinking about going to Brandon Melville, which we discussed before about our kids so very different experience. But then I realized that as much as I could.
(06:56):
I could speak up. I could constitutionally have a voice. I was so accented, and people had such a hard time understanding me that
technically I had a voice in practice, nobody had time to listen to the end of what I was saying, and to me, I think that when we're able to express ourselves, when we're able to express who we are and what we stand for, it's so powerful. And what's interesting is what I've observed over the years is, you know, that is my part of the journey, and why, having a voice is important to me. But I've learned that so many people, so many entrepreneurs, so many business owners, especially in North America, silence themselves
(07:33):
all the time.
Who wants to hear what I have to say? What do I have to say? That's so unique. If I put myself out there and my voice is heard. People are going to think that I'm self promotional, and me me, I just want to be behind my business building the business. What if I say the wrong thing? And I'm canceled? I hear those things all the time, and that's why it became to me it switched from being part of my personal story to something that became a motivating factor behind launching my business.
Govindh Jayaraman (08:03):
That's you know, that's really interesting.
You wanted to speak up, but couldn't, and people didn't want to hear from you.
And then you're talking about this dynamic that many leaders have, that
they don't want to speak up. They're afraid to speak up, and, you know, like the fear of being canceled is real.
(08:26):
I think I think a lot of people feel or sharing what they think about anything, because
the repercussions are pretty violent. Coming from the behind the keyboard. You know the Twitter no worries.
The Facebook police are pretty pretty vigilant.
Marina Byezhanova (08:45):
I know I've experienced it. I know.
Govindh Jayaraman (08:47):
So is that, do you think that's true in all of North America? Or do you think there are dynamics that are different between Canadians in the Us. And in Europe, because you have your hands in various places. Is this a leadership thing, or is this observation that people are afraid to speak out, or reluctant to speak up
(09:09):
universal right now.
Marina Byezhanova (09:11):
I'm finding that it's universal, with some exceptions. So it's universal, you know, barring people who are more narcissistic, or, you know, are just looking to become social media influencers. But those are not the people that we're talking about. I'm talking about, you know, real Ceos, real business owners, building real businesses, not looking to catch likes, don't care about likes aren't on social media to begin with.
(09:32):
aren't so sure that they should be engaging in speaking engagements or being on podcasts, not sure what to do it, that desire to that self questioning of, do I have anything of value to say, or I don't want to be like those people is universal. Then when people start coming out of the shadows of their businesses, the degree to which they're comfortable talking about themselves, and not only talking about their business
(09:57):
that becomes cultural. Certainly people in the States are a lot more comfortable with being self-promotional than I don't know. Some of the Asian cultures. Canada is always somewhere in between and depends on the person. But what blows my mind the most, it just it actually physically hurts. My heart is when I'm speaking with somebody.
in my opinion, just brilliant, and successful, and has built this incredible business, and has a heart of gold and so much wisdom. We have conversations. I'm learning something all the time. And then I say to the person like, why aren't you everything you're sharing right now, why aren't you sharing it more publicly? Again, speaking, podcasting social media, whatever is comfortable.
(10:34):
And the same person who just blew my mind with so much wisdom goes. Oh, come on, Marina, who wants to hear from me?
That breaks my heart.
Govindh Jayaraman (10:44):
Yeah. One of the thing I say often, and it's not mine. I even don't even know where it came from is that
the only people without imposter syndrome are imposters.
Marina Byezhanova (10:56):
I love that. I'm going to use that too. I love it because true.
Govindh Jayaraman (11:00):
It's so true, right? Because if the people who are faking it are faking it, and they've got nothing to hide because they're just faking it. Everybody else.
Marina Byezhanova (11:08):
So true.
Govindh Jayaraman (11:09):
Everybody else is actually scared of being themselves, which brings us to the next point.
And and so but hold on. I want to go back, because what you said is, who wants to hear from me?
What got you over that for you?
You know you have a cultural dynamic coming
from the former Soviet Union to Canada language barrier.
(11:34):
All of these kinds. You're already automatically standing out, whether you wanted to or not.
So how? How did you get over the who wants to hear from me?
Marina Byezhanova (11:46):
This might sound narcissistic or not caring, but in the spirit of complete transparency that to me wasn't the motivation, the motivation wasn't the audience. I just felt that having a voice and being able to be heard is just such a privilege and an asset.
I just wanted that experience. I just wanted that like I had the dream that I'm going to stand on this stage, and I'm going to be saying something. Well, obviously, I value enough. So people don't walk out, but people are going to listen to me, and they're going to hear behind and beyond the accent they're going to hear and see beyond certain beliefs they might have because of my name or whatnot.
(12:25):
and just that I was working for years and years towards that stage, virtual and physical that I would be on where
I could speak up, and I could stand out in a way that was a pleasant standing out where people, you know. Have respect for what you're saying, not people going. Oh, what that was just, I guess. Part of personal development, personal growth, self-development, journey for me.
Govindh Jayaraman (12:51):
This is what, I wondered, coming from the former Soviet Union.
coming to a place that was, you know, a very free democracy. You're coming to a democracy. I wondered if you
saw it as a privilege to speak out, and you were going to exercise that privilege that was.
Marina Byezhanova (13:08):
That's exactly it. That's exactly it. It's a huge privilege, and it's scary to me how much we're giving it up right now in the Western world because of the fears of, you know, as you said, very valid being canceled or judged, or anything else. But it is the privilege, if we don't have our voices. If we don't have our true identities, then what do we have? Then? We're just one mass and one blob that you know there's nothing multidimensional there.
Govindh Jayaraman (13:36):
So so in this, in this
fear of speaking up in this.
in all of that. And I and I know you work with leaders.
Is there room to get it wrong
like? Are we allowed to get it wrong if we if we misstep and say something wrong? I mean, I think a lot of people are afraid of that. A lot of people don't want to share what they think.
(13:59):
especially in these times, because of the fear of cancellation.
for not not for things that are horrible like. If you do horrible things, if you assault or somebody. Yeah, there, there should be repercussions. These are criminal acts.
But if you share an opinion that's different from everybody else's.
should we should we have the ability to walk back those opinions and and learn from our mistakes.
Marina Byezhanova (14:25):
So look, it's a complex question, because there are different things that are at play here. So number one, I think it's very important when we are putting ourselves out there to not become opinion machines and not begin to opine on just any hot topic dure. Where, then, you have to backtrack because you didn't have a fully formulated position that you can stand firm in, and then you don't have to backtrack when we are deciding to put ourselves
(14:50):
out there. So let's say we're looking to build our visibility as a CEO or as a founder, which is what my agency does. We 1st define? Well, what are going to be the topics that you want to be associated with, and those should not be all topics. They should also be relevant to what you are building as your leadership brand. Again, the mistake happens is when people start opining, and they're like, Oh, yes, no. I didn't really mean that, because there was no
(15:15):
firmly formulated
thought, position, and opinion. Number one, number 2. The more we put ourselves out there, the more there are going to be keyboard warriors, not only keyboard, it's going to be in physical audiences as well. I've experienced lots in the speaking engagements I've done and online as well. The thing is the percentage of people. And the more we are radically authentic, the more people are going to dislike us. There are going to be people who are going to dislike us, or who are going to repel against us.
(15:44):
But it's going to be. You're going to have disproportionately if you are indeed
not a sociopath or psychopath, and you're an interesting person, and you know you have something of a value to bring. There's going to be disproportionately higher amount of people that are going to become raving fans. And listen. We know that in our businesses, right when we're building businesses, we're not building something that's for everything. There's no point of view. There's no clear brand positioning, there's no. The core values are diluted, and it's the same thing as everyone else is saying. That's not a business that becomes successful. The business that differentiates itself by taking a position
(16:17):
will dispel people right? We'll dispel. That's fine, but it will attract the right people. It's the same that happens with founder visibility once it's built. But again, there has to be strategy before execution, so that you're not finding yourself in hot waters, because you're kind of just giving random opinions on a whole array of topics.
Govindh Jayaraman (16:34):
Yeah. And and isn't it true
that right now I love this idea of an opinion machine, especially in today's time, right? Because today's time. There's a machine underneath everything. AI, that's just churning out stuff quickly and and in the pace, the speed of strategy. And this is something that I spent a lot of time on
(16:56):
with groups nowadays is the speed of strategy has accelerated massively, so with this massive acceleration
people sometimes feel the need to jump into a conversation
before they actually understand how they feel about it
(17:17):
before they actually understand the facts
that are relevant to them, and being radically authentic
means that you have to deal with it from a position of reality for you, not just a position of superficial knowledge, and everybody's just one inch below the surface today.
Marina Byezhanova (17:36):
It's it's it's harder to get deep.
Govindh Jayaraman (17:39):
For a lot of people, because it's moving so fast. Don't you find that true as well.
Marina Byezhanova (17:43):
I absolutely agree with you, and it's also become just the cultural thing that as soon as there is a movement of some kind, for example, then, if you have any kind of visibility, you have to, you know, express your position on it, and I think that that's a huge mistake, and I've been called out in the past. I don't remember what movement was happening at the time. There's always a new movement, you know, every 6 months, and somebody called me out and said, Well, why aren't you posting anything about it? Why aren't you staying in your position?
(18:08):
And I said, because this topic is completely unrelated to anything I ever talked about. So it's either just again, as you said, like one inch below the surface, or maybe not even pure surface. And I'm just going to weigh in. And I don't have a clear position. Why do that? And that's why, when we work with leaders, we define what we call content pillars. We define topics that they want to be associated with. What's hard for leaders that we work with is to
(18:32):
steer away from only focusing on business topics. When you're building your visibility as a human, not as just a corporate brand. There has to be a human element of yourself that you're showing to others. The good thing is, if you're not looking to become a lifestyle influencer, you don't have to show every single facet and part of your life and opinions and everything you don't have to do that there has to be something that you're talking about, that humanizes you once you define that
(18:57):
you stay in that lane. So if there's something going on, and you're thinking of opining on it, if it aligns with under the umbrella of that humanizing topic that you want to be associated with. Then that's fair game, and it makes sense to say something. And if it doesn't, then sometimes it's really great to sit those things out to you.
Govindh Jayaraman (19:15):
What I find amazing, because I've
had the privilege of being able to watch your journey for a long time.
Not from the beginning, obviously, but from a long time. And and I've seen a lot of it
when you're talking about the tools and the processes that you've built around brand of leader.
(19:37):
These are things that you needed to build for yourself.
Marina Byezhanova (19:41):
Right.
Govindh Jayaraman (19:42):
You you. This is the business you needed
before. And now you're making it available because you've learned all of these things.
How how valuable is it to speak from that core
place of strength that I mean? This is deeply meaningful to you
(20:04):
because of where you came from? Because of why you came here because of the experiences you had. So this is not brand of a leader.
This is something bigger. There's a bigger purpose here for you.
How important is that to where you are now?
Marina Byezhanova (20:22):
Hugely to me. I mean the business that I own now, brand of a leader. It's really incomplete, and it's 1 of those things they say, you know, if you were to do something, not get paid for it, what would you do? And it would be this, it would be to inspire people to find their voice and to push them into, you know, a little bit more spotlight than they're comfortable with. That is our purpose, as we stated at brand of a leader to help people realize
(20:46):
and express their greatness. And this is my personal. Why, too, so the alignment is quite perfect. Because what happened. Govin is, as I told you, when I started putting myself out there. And I started speaking. And I started leveraging linkedin, a lot and guesting on podcasts. I started my own Linkedin Live Series, where I was interviewing people.
I was doing it, as I told you, from a completely selfish standpoint. I wasn't doing it to serve the business. I was doing it to serve my own
(21:11):
chip on the shoulder in many ways, you know. Yes, I can. But what happened was as I was creating visibility around myself.
I started noticing incredible benefits happening to the business
because I was being interviewed by different publications, and I was in different podcasts, and I was contributing on different things. The SEO of the business started going up organically, because, as I was being interviewed, it wasn't just me, Marina Bajana. It was me, Marina Majano, owner of business. ABC, and here's the website. So with all of the different places pointing to our website, SEO started going up. All of a sudden we started attracting higher caliber of clients. We started attracting people
(21:49):
who said, Oh, I want to work for you. I want to work within your organization, started seeing all of these benefits, and then said.
Well, why aren't other business owners doing this? This is an incredible marketing strategy to support all of the other marketing that you're doing in the business. And now a lot of the people that we work with. Probably Govan. Most of the people we work with they don't have the desire and the fuel that I had to speak up and to stand out, but they're realizing that when you do as a CEO, the benefits that that brings to the business
(22:19):
and serving the marketing function of the business, those become really compelling. And so a lot of our clients see that visibility as a necessary evil. I've always seen it as the biggest prize we can have, and the biggest you know privilege, as we said, they see it as the necessary evil. But
we get very different, you know Roi emotionally when we work with them and see them step in stepping out there.
Govindh Jayaraman (22:43):
Yeah, there are 2 really big things that I think you said that are important one. And I don't want to miss out on this radically authentic. You use the word radically authentic
for a reason why? Why? Radically.
Marina Byezhanova (22:56):
Because just authentic doesn't, doesn't mean mean a lot, I think. And also I think the word has been so diluted now, because people often say authentic, meaning like a nice person.
and you can be.
I'm hesitating to say Donald Trump, and people getting very, very agitated at the mention. But Donald Trump is radically authentic.
(23:18):
He's not a likable guy
just across the board, just universally likable right? Not Mother Teresa, but he's radically authentic. He's radically himself, and that repels a whole lot of people. But listen! That brings him a whole lot of raving fans, too. That's an example. I think when we're radically authentic. That means we truly truly are ourselves, and we're willing to take the backlash that that can bring, because, again, not everybody likes us when we truly show who we are and how we are.
Govindh Jayaraman (23:48):
Yeah, I think people are scared of it, too, a little bit. And I also like this piece that you said that
push people into the spotlight a little more than they're comfortable with right? And and I think that growth happens from that discomfort.
And and I think that's what you're suggesting right? Just a little more than you're comfortable with. It's just a little bit out of your comfort. Zone is where the growth happens. Is that what you're suggesting.
Marina Byezhanova (24:12):
And that's the secret, because often so often what happens, you know, by the time we do no outbound sales at brand of a leader all of the clients that come to us. They came in because of our marketing visibility, things like that. And so by the time they come to us. They've had to cross that internal barrier and they go. Okay.
I'm ready. I'm going to do this. I'm doing this. Let's do it. And then what do we work with with founders, Ceos and Ceos at that level? When you've decided to do something, you're going from 0 to 100 and you go. I'm all in
(24:45):
okay. I'm going to do this. Let's do everything. I'm going to write a book. And I'm going to speak. And I'm going to launch a podcast, I'll be on podcasts, on social media. I'll do everything. And we say, No, don't do any of that one thing. Start with one thing, choose one platform that feels
feels the, you know, like a path of least resistance for a lot of people that is Linkedin, because it's written content. That's easier. There are people who say, No, I'd rather be speaking. I'd rather be podcasting start with that one thing. It's uncomfortable enough if spotlight is not your thing, but a lot of growth happens there. When that is consistent and you're comfortable with it.
(25:22):
Add a second platform to it if you must, but
less is more again, we're not looking to become social media influencers and increase followers and catch likes. We're looking to support our businesses and do something of substance and value. So baby steps.
Govindh Jayaraman (25:38):
I love this, and I love that. You're 100% inbound. There's another comment that I want to another conversation I want to have about this idea
is, I believe, and you've heard me say this, that sales are the transfer of trust right when people believe that you'll do the right thing for them, even if it's not you
that's trust. And isn't it true today that in business
(26:05):
the leadership of a company, the leadership of the business. The brand of the business
are the people, and those people need to be visible
so that people can build this trust. And it's just different type of funnel instead of it's a big funnel. You're just taking a little slice of the market, but it's the ones that are really aligned with you. You're raving fans, as you called it.
(26:26):
They come right to you when you do that, and you're living that example by focusing on inbound
with the way you've built your model. Is that is that correct?
Marina Byezhanova (26:39):
Yes, and from different angles as well. So 1st of all, research shows that over 70% of people trust an organization more or more likely to buy from an organization when their executive team, particularly the CEO, has visibility, and so they can see what that organization stands for. It is a question of trust
number one, number 2, I think more and more. It's across all layers of the organization, because it's not always the CEO that is responsible, for example, for I don't know even supporting the sales function directly but definitely, not hiring. So as a leader that is hiring for a specific department of an organization, that visibility that you have, the trust that you build in that becomes really important.
(27:19):
Listen. We had one client who received a message from someone saying I was going to apply to work for your organization. But then I read your articles and your content. And I realized you're not the type of a person I'd want to work for.
and our client called us really excited, saying, Thank God! Because I'd rather I'm so happy. We found it out before we invested in each other. You know, time and us financially. Now we found it out before, and then, of course, she's attracting people who are right, who are aligned with her type of leadership. So that's important, you know, it really also goes beyond it. Because now
(27:49):
there's such a fundamental shift that's happening in how people customers are finding organizations. We're shifting from Google search
to asking Gpt.
And when that was happening, Govin, I got really nervous, because, as I said, all of our sales are inbound. Our number one source of client acquisition is referrals and number 2, Google search, and with completely organic. We never paid for ads. So with really strong high quality content, we're page one. We're top of Page great. All of a sudden, people are not asking Google anymore, who's the best personal branding agency. They're going to Gpt.
(28:25):
And then we saw that we started getting more and more prospects come to us, saying that they found us in Gpt.
But what's interesting and fascinating is that Google search searches by organizations when you're looking for expertise.
Gpt searches by expertise, by thought leadership, which is a human being, and so when people find us in Gpt, it says, Marina Berjanova is an expert and a leader in personal branding for genx Ceos and entrepreneurs. She owns an agency called brand of a leader, which is such a fundamental shift, and it shows how, for so many organizations, especially in services, especially
(29:04):
that shift becomes monumental where that thought, leadership beyond building trust which we were talking about, which is really important, is also being able to be found, which is equally as important as well.
Govindh Jayaraman (29:14):
Yeah. So people are finding people based in a large language model people are finding people based on their expertise as opposed to simply just their brand or their organization. And I think that's a really powerful point, especially when you think about 70% of the North American economy is services based. Right? So that's a huge percentage.
(29:35):
And and when we're thinking about that.
that's powerful, that if if we're not speaking up, if we're not standing out, if we're not being radically authentic.
And and I noticed that you're also not saying
say radically authentic things you're saying. Be radically authentic.
(29:56):
I think it's I think you're leaving something on the table, especially in a large language model world, right in an expertise driven world
right.
Marina Byezhanova (30:06):
Very much so. And, by the way, I'm so glad that you picked up on that being not just saying and words matter, and that's really important, and that's why I speak up. But it's being, because then it's with everything you know. I remember speaking, it's how we dress. It's how we present ourselves. It's how we behave. It's everything. I remember speaking at an event. And actually it was an accelerator event. But I wasn't in the accelerator program anymore.
(30:29):
And there were 2 women who, after the event, when I spoke, came up to the organizers and said we were really impressed with her. We didn't expect her to be smart, and then when she presented.
we realized that she was smart, and why they thought of that is because I dressed casually for the speaking engagement wore a toque. I wore sneakers, and so they made that assumption. And then, when I was sharing that feedback with someone, and somebody was saying, well, maybe you should rethink that then. And they said, No, when I speak I'll let words speak, speak for myself, let them rethink their biases, not me rethink who I am and how I present myself. I am going to be radically authentic.
(31:04):
I'm going to be myself, and if some people walk out because they see me, and they think I'm not going to be intelligent then so be it as well. But so it goes across the board, and yes, it comes with a lot of we do catch a lot of criticism. We do catch a lot of opinions from people. But again
the Raven fans become a much bigger group.
Govindh Jayaraman (31:24):
Yeah, I think that's really powerful. And and I really do.
I really do believe that we are our best in the world when we are for others, what we need for ourselves.
Marina Byezhanova (31:34):
And.
Govindh Jayaraman (31:36):
I think that what you've done is
give everyone what you wanted. Give everyone you know. Maybe
the podium that you wanted or the support that you needed when when you started to find your voice, when you you know all those many years ago when you came here as a teenager. Well, I mean, I say, all those many years ago I really mean like last week, or whatever it was.
Marina Byezhanova (32:00):
Right, just just arrived. You know what's really fascinating. And I think you're going to appreciate this this quick story. So it's exactly as you described. That was my journey. I did this for myself, then realized this could be a business we could help. Others processed out everything that I kind of intuitively did for myself with a lot of expertise, but we processed it out. We packaged it out, and then last month
(32:25):
what I did is I hired my own agency, brandable leader, to now represent me as client to see. Well, how can now we elevate what I'm doing, and my visibility further.
which A.
Helped me to be on the other side helped me uncover inefficiencies in the business that has been fascinating and eye-opening. So a lot of things to fix. But B, it's really interesting to see. Okay, well, now that I'm here, what can my own agency do to bring me there? Which has been a really interesting really interesting exercise.
Govindh Jayaraman (32:57):
Yeah, that's really fascinating. I want to talk about the speed of strategy and the speed of AI. What is AI doing
to your business
to short, you know. What are you? What are you afraid of, and what's the opportunity? What are you concerned about?
First.st
Marina Byezhanova (33:15):
So when generative AI 1st hit our industry. So 1st we were in denial as many other organizations. I spoke with a lot of other marketing organizations, because a lot of what we do is content. Creation right? We write content for clients, we write articles, we write Linkedin posts with them.
and so when it 1st hit, and I started speaking with other agency owners, they were saying, No, it's not good enough. The quality is not good. We don't need to worry about it. But I was worried because we started losing clients, because not only well, 1st of all, and this is what I was telling my business partner at the time. I'm like, okay. So we just got a competitor.
(33:48):
It's called Chatgpt.
The competitor is not as good as us.
but it's getting better, and it's free, or it's 20 bucks. So I said, we can go on the loser game and start telling everyone how we're a better competitor. But it was also so trendy for everyone to use. Gpt right like everyone was like, Oh, I'm using it. I'm using it. You were techy if you were. And so that became a big threat. Number one, number 2, our big threat was, are people going to find us in Google search? Those were the threats, and so we sat on it for a good 3 months, kind of competing with the tool.
(34:21):
And then we decided to make a radical change in the business. And what we did is we completely embraced AI. We are completely implementing AI mindset across the organization with everyone on the team.
We are actually using AI to create content. But we have a system behind it where we're not asking. So, for example, we're creating content for you. And let's say it's going to be on. I don't know business growth. And I'm going to say we're writing a post on business growth. What are the 3 things a CEO should do to grow a business, and then it spits out something generic. No, we interview you. You're the one that gives thought leadership. AI helps follow the certain structure. Follow your tone voice, etc.
(34:59):
We let go of our entire writing team.
This was very radical change for us. We were a team of 24, we let go of 7 people. That is substantial, that is substantial change. But then we invested into just most expensive top notch, incredible human editing.
which then becomes also the brand voice for our clients, and is, you know, we'll remember Govan doesn't like a dash. He likes an end dash he doesn't like, you know this. He likes that. And so that's what we did. So huge. We made a huge shift there as far as content creation. And then just our productivity is through the roof, because we do use the tools more and more and more across the board.
Govindh Jayaraman (35:39):
That's great. So you you combine the challenge and opportunity into one place.
Many years ago, when we launched paper, napkin Wisdom, a very early friend of the show was John Ruland. John Rulan tragically passed away
earlier this year. He gave us one of the most profound napkins, which was what you appreciate, appreciates.
(36:01):
And that was a very simple idea around gratitude. And we've been ending every episode this season in tribute to John and in tribute of his message to us to carry it forward and pay it forward with some gratitude. So we ask all our guests.
is there someone you'd like to shout out, and someone that you'd like to appreciate before we go today.
Marina Byezhanova (36:26):
1st of all, that is absolutely beautiful. What a beautiful tribute! I've been a huge, also student of John's, and his book has been transformational to me and my business as many, many of us.
I will give my gratitude to you, Govan, and I'm not just doing this because I'm on your show. I've done it on others as well. I've spoken about you to people since that 1st year when we worked together over a decade ago, I mean last week, because, you know, we don't age, and my gratitude to you is it's twofold one. There were things that you shared
(37:01):
in that classroom setting with us, and also you took the time to share with me one on one that shaped a lot of my thinking and stuck with me, and that says a lot because I'm an obsessive learner. I'm always, you know, with people who are smart and brilliant. I'm always reading something. I'm always studying something doing a Master's degree. But your degree of wisdom is incredible, and you've said things that have stuck with me ever since.
(37:25):
Your desire to, you know, give back to the organization, to entrepreneurs organization and be there to guide us, but beyond that, to give that one-on-one time and to be available and to share that wisdom to me was an inspiring example also of a leader that I would want to be. And so my gratitude is to you, and for you having me on the show today, which I've been so excited to be doing.
Govindh Jayaraman (37:48):
Well, that's overwhelming, and it's beautiful to hear. So thank you, Marina.
Thank you for joining me today. This was a pleasure.
Marina Byezhanova (37:56):
Thank you so much for having me.
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