Dustin Wells isn’t just an experienced tech entrepreneur — he’s a guide for leaders looking to rediscover purpose in the peaks and valleys of business and life. With over two decades in tech and a successful exit under his belt, Dustin has learned to measure success not only in valuations but in clarity, impact, and joy. In Episode 245 of Paper Napkin Wisdom, Dustin shared a message written in bold blue ink: “Summit your current mountain.”
This deceptively simple statement holds transformative weight. It’s not just about climbing higher — it’s about finishing the climb you’re on. In a culture obsessed with constant reinvention and the next big thing, Dustin’s wisdom is a powerful reminder that what’s in front of you right now deserves your full attention, effort, and heart.
“I almost didn’t sell. I had no plans to sell,” Dustin says, recalling the unexpected opportunity to exit the company he founded. “But when I did, it was the first time in years I could hear myself think.”
That moment of clarity didn’t come easily. Like many founders, Dustin had tied his identity to his company. Stepping away forced him to confront the truth: even success can become a trap if you’re not fully present in the journey.
Throughout the episode, Dustin opens up about the transition from founder to free agent — a phase marked not by absence, but by deeper exploration. “What was fascinating,” he shares, “was how much of my day was about responding to others. After I exited, I had to rediscover what I wanted to do.”
That rediscovery is at the heart of his message. "Summit your current mountain" isn’t about escapism. It’s about going all the way with what you’ve started. “Don’t quit halfway. Don’t build a bridge and walk away before it connects. Get to the top, see the view, learn the lesson — then decide what’s next.”
His story isn’t just about tech or exits. It’s about agency. About being deliberate. About noticing when you're climbing someone else’s mountain — or worse, running in circles at the base of your own.
“What I learned is that there's joy in the hard things — if you're doing the right hard thing.”
In a world that glorifies hustle and pivots, Dustin invites us into a different rhythm: one that values completion, reflection, and intentional transition.
5 Key Takeaways from Dustin Wells
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Govindh Jayaraman (00:03):
Dustin Wells. Welcome to paper napkin wisdom. I'm really happy to have you here today.
Dustin Wells (00:09):
Yeah, thanks for having me. I'm glad to be here
Govindh Jayaraman (00:11):
So you shared with me an interesting napkin, and I think it means a lot of different things, and I'm excited to dive into it. It says, summit your current mountain.
Why did you share that with me?
Dustin Wells (00:25):
I think there's a long story there, and I'll tell a short version of it.
But I have been in tech for over 20 years.
and I had the opportunity to exit and sell my company.
and I almost didn't take the opportunity to do that. I had no plans to sell, but
(00:46):
as one of my board members convinced me to go ahead and pull the trigger on it, and I'm really glad I did. The reason I wasn't gonna sell is because I was
ecstatic every day to get up and do what I was doing.
I was fully engaged. I loved the people that I worked with
love, the company that we created together, and that was really
fulfilling journey every day. And so I thought, why would I trade this for something else
(01:12):
and after the exit, and after the earn out
I started to see other opportunities that I would have never seen had I not summited that 1st mountain.
and I see people a lot of times continuing to work towards something
that it maybe there's an annual goal behind it. But it's this aspirational thing, and at some point that work is done, and it's time to summit that mountain
(01:41):
and then see what's on the other side.
And so that's where that mapping came from. From. All the opportunities that I've seen kind of post exit
in an exit that I'd never planned to have
Govindh Jayaraman (01:52):
That's 1 of the things that's really surprising to hear you talk about is this idea of never planning to have the exit right, like, I think, especially in tech.
the dogma. The the reinforced story is you build the cell you're you're always building for an exit. But you didn't build that way, or you didn't at least believe that 20 years in which is
(02:18):
kind of remarkable, like, how did that come about?
Dustin Wells (02:22):
Yeah, for me. It was building a company that I wanted to work at every day, and that I wanted to go to.
and if I did that I would probably find other people that also wanted to be there. I wanted to build a company to last
and and it created
a great lifestyle. It created a great impact on the clients we worked with and on the employees that we had and that we worked with
(02:44):
and it also created an impact in the entrepreneurial community
where I'm so proud to see companies that spun out where people left my company to start other companies that are similar.
and did it with full support
and and other companies that are modeled after some of the things that we did.
And we modeled after other companies. So there's ways to kind of pay it forward. And so I was always focused on building a healthy company that was cashflow, positive and profitable that prioritized people over everything else first, st and culture
(03:17):
and and that ended up being what our acquirer wanted.
And so, without building for exit explicitly, we actually built something that was really valuable
Govindh Jayaraman (03:29):
That's really Dustin. It's not normal to hear people talk about building a company where
people spun out of your company and built things adjacent to your company with your blessing like that's not normal. People usually.
you know, try to limit that and and and squelch that out. You. You didn't
Dustin Wells (03:55):
Yeah, I I've always had an abundance mindset, and sometimes it's harder than other times to think about it in that way.
But I can explicitly think of one group that came out of our company to start a company that's essentially in the same business.
And we actually not only set them up with their lawyer and general counsel, but we also gave them their 1st client, which happened to be a client that we grew out of.
(04:21):
and they still have that client today.
and they've grown that business to I wanna say 10 plus now, or they're on their way.
And they're gonna see a great exit at some point, too, in their future. And so that makes me really proud that
I was able to play a small part in that journey
Govindh Jayaraman (04:41):
Small, part
Dustin Wells (04:41):
They've
Govindh Jayaraman (04:42):
Mean. It's a big car
Dustin Wells (04:43):
They've done, you know, I mean entrepreneurship.
I could have been out of business any any week, taking the 1st 10 years, except for that one deal closing that helped us make payroll.
So it's it's hard. But we definitely helped give give a start to some of these entrepreneurs that were coming out of our company into their own path, and that feels really fulfilling
Govindh Jayaraman (05:07):
So you teased something in that piece, Dustin, and I think it's really important that you've always had this abundance mindset, even though things were not
always easy
Dustin Wells (05:19):
Yeah.
Govindh Jayaraman (05:19):
And you talked about 20 years in the 1st half, being particularly challenging. It wasn't all sunshine and roses. Early on right
Dustin Wells (05:28):
Never. I mean I learned how to sell
through the school of hard knocks. I made cold calls.
I taught a cold call class to get over my fear of cold calling
where I was. This close to booking a meeting which was kind of the goal of the call in front of, like, you know, 30 people. And
and so I had to learn everything the hard way and and it's not easy. The 1st 10 years, which seems like.
(05:55):
I think there's a 2 year milestone that's really important for businesses where you become more sustainable.
If you can make it 2 years. Then you're probably gonna make it 10.
But if you give up before the 2 year mark, then then I don't know that you really gave it a fair chance.
But even the next 8 years after that we're not easy.
and it feels different in today's time with the tech that's available in in the ways to accelerate ideas into concept and into monetization feels very different now. I started my company in 2,001, just for context.
Govindh Jayaraman (06:29):
Yeah, so and you started it sort of in this
sort of the same philosophy. Summoning your current mountain. You sort of
did that. You started in kind of an innovative way.
Why don't we share that story?
Dustin Wells (06:45):
How I started the business
Govindh Jayaraman (06:46):
Yeah.
Dustin Wells (06:47):
Yeah. So the the early way I started I was a musician and have a music degree.
And this was back in the late nineties, and the tech was obviously
full steam ahead at that point up to up to the dotcom crash
Govindh Jayaraman (07:08):
Yeah, y 2. K,
Dustin Wells (07:09):
Lessons. Yeah, and all that kind of stuff which is hilarious to think about now.
But for me, I wasn't that marketable for a job. I wanted to get out of music because I was getting home at like 4 in the morning and had a baby at home.
and that just wasn't conducive for family life.
And so I read HTML for dummies.
And I built my 1st website for $500. And that's how I started the company.
(07:31):
I was self-taught engineer back then you had to learn everything through books. There was no
online blogs or code online or things like that.
And so that's how I got started was with that book, and then slowly,
just tried to get better every year and tried to build on that a little bit more every single year
in the 1st 7 years. Call it.
(07:55):
You know, we were sub 1 million dollars
and but every year I doubled.
So that means the 1st year I was 18,000 in revenue, which was pretty meager
Govindh Jayaraman (08:07):
Yeah, yeah.
What I really think is really interesting is how
how similar the times are, though they're so dynamically different. Right? You you were self-taught, and you had to experiment with everything because there was no
playbook for building a tech company or HTML company back then, right like a web design company. But now it's sort of like the same way, but just in a different vertical of technology. I mean, things that are well understood are well understood. But this whole thing around reward-based AI, and where we're going in the future there's it's books. It's theoretical, and you have to learn
Dustin Wells (08:44):
Yeah, that's fair.
But yeah, and back to the abundance mindset. Like when I started, I had a ton of mentors that were ahead of me on that path, one of which was my board member that convinced me to sell
and you know, 20 years later. And so we're talking about long term relationships where we're all in a very similar business for consulting.
(09:04):
Yet they abundantly share their time and resources and knowledge with me.
And so that felt like the right path for me, as that opportunity came up for me to be on the other side of that
Govindh Jayaraman (09:18):
That that sort of student mindset that attracted those mentors, those people that were ahead of you. Right? And I think it's a learning mindset. It's a humility mindset that you have.
Was that something that you always had? Or was that something that that sort of came about through your experience in business?
Dustin Wells (09:38):
I've always had a humility mindset, for sure, a mindset for learning and trying to get better and trying to to grow.
I think most people that know me well.
we'll say I'm probably the most gross growth focused person that they've seen, and
every year for the last 20 or more. I've been in some kind of coaching program or development program, or some kind of training program where I'm trying to learn a new skill or trying to hone my my craft.
Govindh Jayaraman (10:07):
Yeah. So so that constant learning is part of summiting your mountain. Right? I mean, in order to do that. That's how you got into business, you you self taught, and then you've
kept ahead of that by teaching.
Is it the teaching that builds the abundance mindset? Or is the abundance mindset that fuels the learning mindset like which way
Dustin Wells (10:26):
I?
Yeah, I think you have to start with the abundance mindset. Personally, I mean, that's been my experience. And then that has led to
to people being abundantly kind to me, and sharing their gifts with me, and for me to be able to pay that forward as well.
And then, as we talk about summoning that second mountain
Or the 1st mountain, and then we get to see what the second mountain is. I mean, think literally, think of the metaphor of hiking.
(10:52):
and if you're hiking up at a mountain, I live in Colorado right now, and like, if you're hiking up a mountain, you have no idea what's on the other side, but you get to the top of one.
and it's usually this beautiful vista. But then you see a new thing that you want to go attack, and maybe this new trail that you want to go go, take. And this feels a lot like that. But what I see entrepreneurs do is they stay, and they continue to grind on their business like I could have stayed in my business. I could have probably doubled it
(11:20):
over over the last 3 years.
And then I could have maybe doubled it again.
But I think, understanding the question like, What is enough
is something that comes up a lot in in entrepreneurial circles. And for me I had that number, and when I hit it
I took it.
and that actually opened up all these opportunities that I never would have seen, and that I would have never been able to explore had I just kept grinding on it and kept growing it
Govindh Jayaraman (11:46):
So what did you have to do
to get that number? I think a lot of people.
I think a lot of people, either.
I think most people think too big around that number.
and and that's a trap, right? I mean, it keeps you on the on, on the conveyor belt or on the treadmill for too long.
(12:09):
But what did you do to get your number in your mind?
Dustin Wells (12:12):
Yeah. So I've done the exercise a couple of times, and the number's gone up.
And so it is important, I think, at some point
to draw a line. Say, this is the number, and here's the rationale, for why?
But but the inspiration for that for me came from watching fellow entrepreneurs and friends sell their companies for not enough.
(12:34):
and 2 years later they either had to start something else, or they had to find a job
because they didn't solve for enough.
So when I talk about enough, what I wanted was the ability to create income from the principal.
the after tax principle, the before earn out principle
which we can go into but I wanted enough from that 1st check where, if I lived out the income at 5% that that created the income number that I needed for the rest of my life. So I could have the flexibility
(13:06):
to go do whatever I wanted to do after that without the need to go, do it for financial gain, or to make a living
Govindh Jayaraman (13:16):
I love that you're talking. I think a lot of us
entrepreneurs suspend or delay gratification to something later. But on the exit, what you did was you said before, earn out after tax principle had to yield you a return, not a 10%, not a 20%, but at 5% that was going to provide the income you needed to sustain your life right? Is that what you
Dustin Wells (13:43):
Yep.
yeah. So think about like, 10 million dollars net net after taxes, after everything is 500,000 a year in income.
And so if that's my number.
then I I go look at 500 is my number. Then I back into the 10, and then I go. Okay, what's the
typical upfront check versus an earn out check because we don't ever want to count on the earn out when we sell our company, especially when you sell to private equity, which are more notorious for
(14:11):
really not
Govindh Jayaraman (14:12):
Essa
Dustin Wells (14:12):
Feeling. Yeah, without trying to
get too specific versus like selling to a strategic where the earnouts much more guaranteed. But there's a lot of things there. But
but look at your taxes, which is 2025% likely, if it's capital gains, at least in the in the United States it is.
And then look at the earn out. So that helps you figure out, okay, my number must be 17,
(14:36):
because after taxes, and then, after the earnest
Govindh Jayaraman (14:39):
So I'm
Dustin Wells (14:40):
End with 10.
And so I mean, that's just a fictitious kind of equation. But that's a real number for most people
Govindh Jayaraman (14:49):
And the number doesn't have to be 500. It could be like the for you. The number might not be 500, it might be for someone listening. It might be 50, it might be a hundred, but whatever the number is
Dustin Wells (14:58):
Yeah.
Govindh Jayaraman (14:59):
Do the reverse engineering around that. So you end up with a target. And then, you know. But what did that do
to you? I mean, let's go backwards again to the Board meeting where you you were in tech for 20 years. You sold your company, but it was. You know it's a company that you loved. You loved waking up in the morning. You loved nurturing your team, you loved what you did. You loved everything about it, and
(15:26):
you know, offline. I've heard you talk about it with so much pride.
and one of your board members talked you into it, or
convinced you that it was the right time.
And you did this formula. It all worked out for you.
knowing that number also helps you reverse engineer. The business around the right targets, too, doesn't it?
Dustin Wells (15:48):
Well, they could if my goal was an exit, and so
Govindh Jayaraman (15:52):
Yeah.
Dustin Wells (15:52):
And while I had done the numbers in my head and had my numbers, I also wasn't optimizing the business so I could hit those numbers to what we talked about earlier, and, in fact, I got really good advice very early on to always pay yourself first.st
And so I took money off the table every year to a point where
(16:14):
I already hit my 1st number, from just the
the excess profits that I was able to take off the table every year.
and one year it's maybe 10,000 and another year. It's a hundred 1,000. And then, as you grow, the business that that number starts to increase.
but I would always keep 6 months of runway cash in the business, and never tapped our line of credit except for one time in 20 years.
(16:40):
and paying yourself 1st
ended up being one of the best moves, because one. I already built a certain amount of success financially
based on that. But then, secondly, when it did come to an exit, I didn't need the money anymore.
Govindh Jayaraman (16:57):
Right.
Dustin Wells (16:58):
And I have a friend that sold had a very similar business.
but was more in debt, and did not take money off the table they sold for about half of what we sold for in a very similar business, because I had the optionality to wait.
and to also just be a little more stern in the negotiations, because I didn't need it.
Govindh Jayaraman (17:19):
Right?
I think that's really so. This idea of profit. First, st the idea of paying yourself 1st is is really challenging for a lot of people especially small.
And and the idea really is that look, if you've got this much revenue rather than revenue minus expenses, equals profit, it's revenue minus profit equals. This is what you got to run your business with.
(17:46):
and that changes the mindset, doesn't it?
Dustin Wells (17:49):
Well, I think it does in most. But the the trap that most people fall into, and it's
and it's elusive and sexy. But they take all the profits, and they put it into next year.
and then reinvest it back in the business.
And I would do that, too, after I took my cut out
right. So and I always paid myself first, st
(18:10):
and even if it was a little bit like I said earlier, it's just the habit and the discipline of doing that.
And what happens?
You know, 9 out of 10 times. Unfortunately, when most people just file everything back into the business. They don't get the outcomes that they were hoping for. The Roi is not there.
and they end up in a similar position that they would have ended up. Had they just paid themselves 1st already
Govindh Jayaraman (18:34):
It's almost like paying yourself 1st is summiting your current mountain, the current mountain
Dustin Wells (18:39):
Yeah.
Govindh Jayaraman (18:40):
Right it. It's almost like that you're you're adopting that philosophy within the business also, isn't it?
Dustin Wells (18:50):
I love that. Yeah, if you think of each year as as a small hike up up this.
you know
Govindh Jayaraman (18:56):
This foothills.
Dustin Wells (18:56):
1,000 foot mountain or whatever. Yeah.
absolutely. I love that idea of. And let's celebrate success each year.
and and let's take it off, and then let's see what we're left over with. I would absolutely reinvest profits every year. 100.
I wouldn't pocket everything and then start from 0.
But
And those investments paid off sometimes, and sometimes they didn't. But it was never
(19:21):
it. It really set set me up where I didn't had a lot of optionality. I didn't have to do things that I didn't want to do.
which is where I'm at now, too, but in a different way.
Govindh Jayaraman (19:32):
So that discipline. Let's talk about the discipline of taking a little bit off, leaving a little bit in growing like what that ratio was. Do you remember the ratios in the early days? Do the ratios change over time? What did that look like
Dustin Wells (19:46):
Yeah, there was no ratio. I say discipline. And and now I'm going to come up with an approach that doesn't sound very disciplined. But it was, you know, maybe one year
we wanted to buy a new house, and so I pulled the down payment out
of the business and use and said, We're gonna use this in 6 months for the down payment.
(20:06):
it. It's much harder, especially when when you're not as profitable to have that discipline, because the allure to kind of reinvest that back
feels like a lot more of a pull.
One thing that we always focused on was in our business with software consulting for context was trying to hit 20% profit
(20:27):
like net profit.
And that's a very healthy target. Most businesses and services.
If you're the the top of the top. Like Capgemini's, you're probably at 8 to 10%.
12% is considered healthy. 15 is considered outstanding. We always shop for 20. We hit somewhere between 15 and 20,
most years.
(20:48):
And so I think maybe what you're targeting
also drives what's available at the end so that you can have that discipline to pull some out
Govindh Jayaraman (20:59):
So your target
really influences your outcome is what you said there, right? Like having a 20% target. I mean, if you had a 10% target.
you wouldn't have hit 20. That's for sure.
Dustin Wells (21:13):
Yeah.
Yeah. Well, yeah, my, I have an old band director, a jazz band director. And this was in the context of like marching band or something, but he said, it's better to shoot for perfection and miss than shoot for imperfection and hit it.
and that's always stuck with me, and and that can get too extreme, like, you know, if you're a 10 million dollar company. And you say I want to hit a hundred 1 million dollars this year. It's probably not realistic. So
(21:35):
what's the stretch? But what's realistic as far as a goal? And how do you set that in your sites?
Govindh Jayaraman (21:40):
Yeah, that's amazing. So when you when you think about those little Mini victories, those annual victories, and then turning it into this other thing. Now think about a post exit. You know all that structure that you had right around summiting those little mountains every single year has changed.
How have you brought that sense of discipline into what you're doing now.
Dustin Wells (22:04):
Well, I don't know if I have. I'm just starting that sense of discipline. I've really considered the last almost 3 years to be opening the aperture and just exploring without any expectations about where it might go.
And I've gone down a lot of rabbit holes that then I've come up and realized that that's not where I'm interested in.
and so just give you myself. Permission to play and explore has been the priority.
(22:29):
I still continue to grow. I still continue to be in programs and with coaching and and other things.
But it's much more on a spiritual journey for me than it is on a business side, but that is all culminating into something where
in the last month I have started to apply a lot more discipline with some daily practices that I want to that are important to me.
(22:50):
that can drive me forward towards that goal
Govindh Jayaraman (22:53):
And one of the things I think is really interesting. And and I and I really you know, I
full disclosure to everybody listening. Dustin and I
have met in some of these coaching circles the training that we've that we've gone through, and actually happened to be in the same classroom together.
(23:14):
And so I've seen that side of you. But one of the things that I think you have innate comfort with is the sense that there is value to everything that people do, and I think it comes from this abundance mindset.
But this.
this discipline and rigor that you have around there is a value, and that value should be captured.
(23:39):
as you've gone through that spiritual journey. Have you observed that in these other areas that are not tech, so tech is very.
This is the deliverable. This is the thing. This is the project. This is the other explorations you've been doing, or maybe a little more nebulous. Is it interesting to see other sectors, and how they don't
(23:59):
have that same understanding of value that business past has
Dustin Wells (24:05):
Yeah, I think, just to clarify like, there's
there's a lot of certain like I'm in a very
important circle to me around a conscious community which involves
like plant medicines and sound healings and a bunch of other healing modalities, body work. And I found in that in that group
(24:26):
that typically there's more of a like sharing and barter economy than than a traditional, maybe capitalist economy.
And as I move into that circle and with the offerings that feel important and aligned to me.
One thing that is very top of mind is to not fall into that mindset.
(24:49):
and that I wanna. And maybe it gives me frankly an unfair advantage
if I bring, like this entrepreneurial mindset, and I'm going to use the word without apologizing like a capitalist mindset
to charging what I'm the value that I'm bringing
and to not barter and to not discount it, and to not excuse it, because
(25:10):
there's other people that charge less like I. What I'm bringing is is valuable and important.
and and how this is manifesting for me right now is probably through a coaching practice. But I'm still exploring that, and I plan to charge a lot for it.
and I think it will be worth it.
And I'm gonna bring a lot of different modalities into that to make it valuable.
(25:36):
And there's a lot of other opportunities
where there are coaches in a similar space that have similar modalities where they're going to charge a lot less.
And I'm not gonna discount what I'm doing
to fit into that model. I don't know if that kind of hits on what what you're going for. That's what seems to me
Govindh Jayaraman (25:55):
And I think it. I think it really all comes from this.
you know, to me I'm just.
I'm I'm inspired
by this abundance mindset that you brought to a company that was making $18,000 when you started.
and you maintain that mindset all the way through. And this idea
(26:15):
that you not only built a company that you want to work with
work at, but also set out and spun out other companies that are similar to yours that you know other people would say directly competed with yours.
But you saw that as complimentary. And then you're bringing that same sort of idea to what you're
(26:36):
doing now in a, in a field or in a sphere where that may be
just as foreign as it was back then. And I think that's interesting right
Dustin Wells (26:48):
Yeah, I I love how you said that. And it is my every intention that I'm not gonna go down this path alone. I plan to bring
whoever wants to join me on the journey
together, because we're all gonna have offerings we want to bring to the table.
and they'll get paid well for what they're bringing.
And so yeah, this isn't I. It may have sounded a little harsh of like I'm taking this capitalist mindset into this other circle where that's not really a very common approach.
(27:16):
But I plan to my my goal is to help all boats rise
with with that approach, and with this community that we want to build
Govindh Jayaraman (27:25):
So do you find it at times?
What? How do you handle the conflict when you have this integrative mindset right
in in a very distributive world, right?
The distributive world is that people think that there's a winner and a loser of every deal.
and you don't approach things that way, you know, like, I don't think that you, in hearing your story, you don't approach anything that way. You look at everything as an integrative environment. Everything is abundance everybody can win. There is a system where that happens.
(28:00):
How do you approach people who are really distributive, who are really winners and losers? You're threatening me.
and what? How do you bring them over to your side, or do you
Dustin Wells (28:11):
You know, that's that's a really good question. And and
I've done it a couple of different ways.
I've approached this problem in a couple of different ways, I should say I used to. The most frustrating thing to me is is that when 2 people are playing by different sets of rules.
and if I'm coming from this abundance and and win win mindset like that feels aligned to me.
(28:37):
But when I'm
confronted in the situations where the other person is playing by different rules. My former approach would have been to continue to
this feels like a value judgment. But take the high road, and and I would lose.
I would lose, and that served me well
overall. If you look at the scoreboard like
(28:59):
I'm winning still, even though I lost on those
what I've started to do in the last 5 years.
And I feel aligned to this as long as I'm not having to compromise my values.
If someone wants to play by a different set of rules, then I'll meet them on the field where they want to play.
And honestly, that's a new leap for me recently in the last 5 years or so. But
(29:25):
It served me well, and I found when I meet someone where they are coming from, not with
withstanding my values and keeping that intact.
It honestly, I think, is a healthy boundary
that I've learned how to put up.
and and I think that's also served me well.
(29:45):
And those situations have typically ended with a better outcome for me.
Then it would have had I done it the other way.
So you just
Govindh Jayaraman (29:57):
The high road and quote unquote high road, and said, Oh, they're going to play that way. I'm going to play this way, and whatever happens, happens, you're you're
you. You didn't always like the outcome to you in that situation, because maybe you weren't protecting your boundaries. But this way, when you
recognize the situation as it is.
(30:19):
you're better able to just be yourself and almost de-risk it so that you get a guarantee
Dustin Wells (30:25):
Yeah, honestly, yeah, I think I think it's a element of of a good leader that understands
how to stay authentic with yourself. But how to show up in a room
in a way that everyone can relate to.
And and so I want to be very careful that, like a chameleon comes to mind, but that could be interpreted as someone that is kind of shifting who they are to fit in. And I'm not saying that I'm saying, be authentic to you, but show up in a way that makes you more relatable. And so we think of it in a different context. And in these business contexts. If someone wants to show up in a way
(31:02):
that that feels like a 0 sum game.
then I've learned how to play that game
while keeping my core intact and my values intact.
Govindh Jayaraman (31:16):
What do you do to prepare for that? That's different than
you know. An integrated conversation, a win-win environment. How do you prepare for that differently, because there is. And I agree with you. I think
I think there's a flexibility of behavior, not a
Dustin Wells (31:33):
So.
Govindh Jayaraman (31:33):
Of persona, not a flexibility of character, but a flexibility of behavior that permits you to play on that field is the way you said it, so I agree with you. But what do you do to prepare yourself for those differences
Dustin Wells (31:47):
Yeah.
I love the word flexibility. Behavior like that's a great way to describe it. And I think that's a learned skill that gives you more in your toolbox to work with when you need it.
To prepare for that. I'm thinking of 2 specific examples that I'm not going to go into the details of, but to prepare i 1,
(32:08):
I double check the intentions of the other party or parties.
and I share my clear intentions of here's how I'd like this to go.
Here's what I'm perceiving from your side.
and I honestly, I loop around that 3 or 4 times to try to bring us all to a level of win win
(32:32):
when you meet, or when I've met people that have been inflexible or
just dogmatic about kind of their approach and where they want to go with it.
Then then that's where I pivot. And so the prep really starts with, can we please get aligned on this
because it's gonna be easier for everyone if we do.
And if we can talk about what our desired outcomes are, and not the egos in the room of how we got here, or
(32:59):
like I I the more you can put on the table for what makes us happy on each side, the better chance you have of reaching an agreement
that's mutually a win-win-win.
But when you're dogmatic and you're focused on one thing, call it the value of your company versus the payment terms.
The earn out the you know, just there's a hundred things you can put in a negotiation for a business exit, besides the price of the business, but if you're only focused on the price, you're much less likely to come up with an agreement
Govindh Jayaraman (33:32):
Yeah. So how do we put more on the table?
I love the transparency to come with to that. Is there anything that you need to do to reset after you play on a field. That's not where you want to be, generally speaking, or or is that an easy reset for you?
Dustin Wells (33:50):
You know I love the idea of a of a practice, maybe a cord cutting practice, or just a
a cleansing comes to mind, I haven't done that. I am dealing with a situation now that feels very similar
to this, where I think I'm gonna have to play on a different field that I don't like to play on
and I love the idea. The way I plan to go into those conversations is I'll probably meditate beforehand.
(34:11):
I'll do some sound work because I do a lot of work with. I'm a percussionist. So I work with a lot of different sound equipment and bowls and things like that. Just so I can be centered and come from a place of the most resources possible.
and so that I have the flexibility of behavior to go back to your phrase.
to show up in the
way that has the highest integrity for me, but also shows up in the way I need to show up
Govindh Jayaraman (34:35):
That's awesome.
Dustin. We've been ending every episode this season with an expression of gratitude, and it comes from John Rulin, who is a early guest on the podcast he grew to some international notoriety around a book that he wrote called Giftology. He's got a new book out now as well, and he suddenly passed away, and in honor of his memory we are paying forward his message
(35:01):
with asking every guest to show some appreciation. So his paper napkin was what you appreciate appreciates. And we're asking our guests to show some appreciation in the world. Is there someone that you'd like to shout out somebody that you'd like to appreciate, to close the episode
Dustin Wells (35:18):
Yeah, what comes to mind, as you were saying, that is, anyone that's trusted me
to be a part of their journey feels really poignant to me right now. So anyone that I've worked with any clients. So that's a broad bucket. But that feels
really alive for me right now.
If I have to get more specific, I think my board
(35:42):
that was a personal advisory board that also really focused on the business, because that was a big part of my life
like that was a turning point in my life and in my career
to have a group that held up the mirror for me. So just want to show immense gratitude to that group
for being there for me and for sharing selflessly.
(36:04):
that feels like a very pivotal time in my life, and feel a lot of gratitude towards them as well
Govindh Jayaraman (36:09):
Thanks for joining me. Justin.
Dustin Wells (36:11):
Yeah. Good to see you, brother.
Dustin Wells. Welcome to paper napkin wisdom. I'm really happy to have you here today.
Dustin Wells (00:09):
Yeah, thanks for having me. I'm glad to be here
Govindh Jayaraman (00:11):
So you shared with me an interesting napkin, and I think it means a lot of different things, and I'm excited to dive into it. It says, summit your current mountain.
Why did you share that with me?
Dustin Wells (00:25):
I think there's a long story there, and I'll tell a short version of it.
But I have been in tech for over 20 years.
and I had the opportunity to exit and sell my company.
and I almost didn't take the opportunity to do that. I had no plans to sell, but
(00:46):
as one of my board members convinced me to go ahead and pull the trigger on it, and I'm really glad I did. The reason I wasn't gonna sell is because I was
ecstatic every day to get up and do what I was doing.
I was fully engaged. I loved the people that I worked with
love, the company that we created together, and that was really
fulfilling journey every day. And so I thought, why would I trade this for something else
(01:12):
and after the exit, and after the earn out
I started to see other opportunities that I would have never seen had I not summited that 1st mountain.
and I see people a lot of times continuing to work towards something
that it maybe there's an annual goal behind it. But it's this aspirational thing, and at some point that work is done, and it's time to summit that mountain
(01:41):
and then see what's on the other side.
And so that's where that mapping came from. From. All the opportunities that I've seen kind of post exit
in an exit that I'd never planned to have
Govindh Jayaraman (01:52):
That's 1 of the things that's really surprising to hear you talk about is this idea of never planning to have the exit right, like, I think, especially in tech.
the dogma. The the reinforced story is you build the cell you're you're always building for an exit. But you didn't build that way, or you didn't at least believe that 20 years in which is
(02:18):
kind of remarkable, like, how did that come about?
Dustin Wells (02:22):
Yeah, for me. It was building a company that I wanted to work at every day, and that I wanted to go to.
and if I did that I would probably find other people that also wanted to be there. I wanted to build a company to last
and and it created
a great lifestyle. It created a great impact on the clients we worked with and on the employees that we had and that we worked with
(02:44):
and it also created an impact in the entrepreneurial community
where I'm so proud to see companies that spun out where people left my company to start other companies that are similar.
and did it with full support
and and other companies that are modeled after some of the things that we did.
And we modeled after other companies. So there's ways to kind of pay it forward. And so I was always focused on building a healthy company that was cashflow, positive and profitable that prioritized people over everything else first, st and culture
(03:17):
and and that ended up being what our acquirer wanted.
And so, without building for exit explicitly, we actually built something that was really valuable
Govindh Jayaraman (03:29):
That's really Dustin. It's not normal to hear people talk about building a company where
people spun out of your company and built things adjacent to your company with your blessing like that's not normal. People usually.
you know, try to limit that and and and squelch that out. You. You didn't
Dustin Wells (03:55):
Yeah, I I've always had an abundance mindset, and sometimes it's harder than other times to think about it in that way.
But I can explicitly think of one group that came out of our company to start a company that's essentially in the same business.
And we actually not only set them up with their lawyer and general counsel, but we also gave them their 1st client, which happened to be a client that we grew out of.
(04:21):
and they still have that client today.
and they've grown that business to I wanna say 10 plus now, or they're on their way.
And they're gonna see a great exit at some point, too, in their future. And so that makes me really proud that
I was able to play a small part in that journey
Govindh Jayaraman (04:41):
Small, part
Dustin Wells (04:41):
They've
Govindh Jayaraman (04:42):
Mean. It's a big car
Dustin Wells (04:43):
They've done, you know, I mean entrepreneurship.
I could have been out of business any any week, taking the 1st 10 years, except for that one deal closing that helped us make payroll.
So it's it's hard. But we definitely helped give give a start to some of these entrepreneurs that were coming out of our company into their own path, and that feels really fulfilling
Govindh Jayaraman (05:07):
So you teased something in that piece, Dustin, and I think it's really important that you've always had this abundance mindset, even though things were not
always easy
Dustin Wells (05:19):
Yeah.
Govindh Jayaraman (05:19):
And you talked about 20 years in the 1st half, being particularly challenging. It wasn't all sunshine and roses. Early on right
Dustin Wells (05:28):
Never. I mean I learned how to sell
through the school of hard knocks. I made cold calls.
I taught a cold call class to get over my fear of cold calling
where I was. This close to booking a meeting which was kind of the goal of the call in front of, like, you know, 30 people. And
and so I had to learn everything the hard way and and it's not easy. The 1st 10 years, which seems like.
(05:55):
I think there's a 2 year milestone that's really important for businesses where you become more sustainable.
If you can make it 2 years. Then you're probably gonna make it 10.
But if you give up before the 2 year mark, then then I don't know that you really gave it a fair chance.
But even the next 8 years after that we're not easy.
and it feels different in today's time with the tech that's available in in the ways to accelerate ideas into concept and into monetization feels very different now. I started my company in 2,001, just for context.
Govindh Jayaraman (06:29):
Yeah, so and you started it sort of in this
sort of the same philosophy. Summoning your current mountain. You sort of
did that. You started in kind of an innovative way.
Why don't we share that story?
Dustin Wells (06:45):
How I started the business
Govindh Jayaraman (06:46):
Yeah.
Dustin Wells (06:47):
Yeah. So the the early way I started I was a musician and have a music degree.
And this was back in the late nineties, and the tech was obviously
full steam ahead at that point up to up to the dotcom crash
Govindh Jayaraman (07:08):
Yeah, y 2. K,
Dustin Wells (07:09):
Lessons. Yeah, and all that kind of stuff which is hilarious to think about now.
But for me, I wasn't that marketable for a job. I wanted to get out of music because I was getting home at like 4 in the morning and had a baby at home.
and that just wasn't conducive for family life.
And so I read HTML for dummies.
And I built my 1st website for $500. And that's how I started the company.
(07:31):
I was self-taught engineer back then you had to learn everything through books. There was no
online blogs or code online or things like that.
And so that's how I got started was with that book, and then slowly,
just tried to get better every year and tried to build on that a little bit more every single year
in the 1st 7 years. Call it.
(07:55):
You know, we were sub 1 million dollars
and but every year I doubled.
So that means the 1st year I was 18,000 in revenue, which was pretty meager
Govindh Jayaraman (08:07):
Yeah, yeah.
What I really think is really interesting is how
how similar the times are, though they're so dynamically different. Right? You you were self-taught, and you had to experiment with everything because there was no
playbook for building a tech company or HTML company back then, right like a web design company. But now it's sort of like the same way, but just in a different vertical of technology. I mean, things that are well understood are well understood. But this whole thing around reward-based AI, and where we're going in the future there's it's books. It's theoretical, and you have to learn
Dustin Wells (08:44):
Yeah, that's fair.
But yeah, and back to the abundance mindset. Like when I started, I had a ton of mentors that were ahead of me on that path, one of which was my board member that convinced me to sell
and you know, 20 years later. And so we're talking about long term relationships where we're all in a very similar business for consulting.
(09:04):
Yet they abundantly share their time and resources and knowledge with me.
And so that felt like the right path for me, as that opportunity came up for me to be on the other side of that
Govindh Jayaraman (09:18):
That that sort of student mindset that attracted those mentors, those people that were ahead of you. Right? And I think it's a learning mindset. It's a humility mindset that you have.
Was that something that you always had? Or was that something that that sort of came about through your experience in business?
Dustin Wells (09:38):
I've always had a humility mindset, for sure, a mindset for learning and trying to get better and trying to to grow.
I think most people that know me well.
we'll say I'm probably the most gross growth focused person that they've seen, and
every year for the last 20 or more. I've been in some kind of coaching program or development program, or some kind of training program where I'm trying to learn a new skill or trying to hone my my craft.
Govindh Jayaraman (10:07):
Yeah. So so that constant learning is part of summiting your mountain. Right? I mean, in order to do that. That's how you got into business, you you self taught, and then you've
kept ahead of that by teaching.
Is it the teaching that builds the abundance mindset? Or is the abundance mindset that fuels the learning mindset like which way
Dustin Wells (10:26):
I?
Yeah, I think you have to start with the abundance mindset. Personally, I mean, that's been my experience. And then that has led to
to people being abundantly kind to me, and sharing their gifts with me, and for me to be able to pay that forward as well.
And then, as we talk about summoning that second mountain
Or the 1st mountain, and then we get to see what the second mountain is. I mean, think literally, think of the metaphor of hiking.
(10:52):
and if you're hiking up at a mountain, I live in Colorado right now, and like, if you're hiking up a mountain, you have no idea what's on the other side, but you get to the top of one.
and it's usually this beautiful vista. But then you see a new thing that you want to go attack, and maybe this new trail that you want to go go, take. And this feels a lot like that. But what I see entrepreneurs do is they stay, and they continue to grind on their business like I could have stayed in my business. I could have probably doubled it
(11:20):
over over the last 3 years.
And then I could have maybe doubled it again.
But I think, understanding the question like, What is enough
is something that comes up a lot in in entrepreneurial circles. And for me I had that number, and when I hit it
I took it.
and that actually opened up all these opportunities that I never would have seen, and that I would have never been able to explore had I just kept grinding on it and kept growing it
Govindh Jayaraman (11:46):
So what did you have to do
to get that number? I think a lot of people.
I think a lot of people, either.
I think most people think too big around that number.
and and that's a trap, right? I mean, it keeps you on the on, on the conveyor belt or on the treadmill for too long.
(12:09):
But what did you do to get your number in your mind?
Dustin Wells (12:12):
Yeah. So I've done the exercise a couple of times, and the number's gone up.
And so it is important, I think, at some point
to draw a line. Say, this is the number, and here's the rationale, for why?
But but the inspiration for that for me came from watching fellow entrepreneurs and friends sell their companies for not enough.
(12:34):
and 2 years later they either had to start something else, or they had to find a job
because they didn't solve for enough.
So when I talk about enough, what I wanted was the ability to create income from the principal.
the after tax principle, the before earn out principle
which we can go into but I wanted enough from that 1st check where, if I lived out the income at 5% that that created the income number that I needed for the rest of my life. So I could have the flexibility
(13:06):
to go do whatever I wanted to do after that without the need to go, do it for financial gain, or to make a living
Govindh Jayaraman (13:16):
I love that you're talking. I think a lot of us
entrepreneurs suspend or delay gratification to something later. But on the exit, what you did was you said before, earn out after tax principle had to yield you a return, not a 10%, not a 20%, but at 5% that was going to provide the income you needed to sustain your life right? Is that what you
Dustin Wells (13:43):
Yep.
yeah. So think about like, 10 million dollars net net after taxes, after everything is 500,000 a year in income.
And so if that's my number.
then I I go look at 500 is my number. Then I back into the 10, and then I go. Okay, what's the
typical upfront check versus an earn out check because we don't ever want to count on the earn out when we sell our company, especially when you sell to private equity, which are more notorious for
(14:11):
really not
Govindh Jayaraman (14:12):
Essa
Dustin Wells (14:12):
Feeling. Yeah, without trying to
get too specific versus like selling to a strategic where the earnouts much more guaranteed. But there's a lot of things there. But
but look at your taxes, which is 2025% likely, if it's capital gains, at least in the in the United States it is.
And then look at the earn out. So that helps you figure out, okay, my number must be 17,
(14:36):
because after taxes, and then, after the earnest
Govindh Jayaraman (14:39):
So I'm
Dustin Wells (14:40):
End with 10.
And so I mean, that's just a fictitious kind of equation. But that's a real number for most people
Govindh Jayaraman (14:49):
And the number doesn't have to be 500. It could be like the for you. The number might not be 500, it might be for someone listening. It might be 50, it might be a hundred, but whatever the number is
Dustin Wells (14:58):
Yeah.
Govindh Jayaraman (14:59):
Do the reverse engineering around that. So you end up with a target. And then, you know. But what did that do
to you? I mean, let's go backwards again to the Board meeting where you you were in tech for 20 years. You sold your company, but it was. You know it's a company that you loved. You loved waking up in the morning. You loved nurturing your team, you loved what you did. You loved everything about it, and
(15:26):
you know, offline. I've heard you talk about it with so much pride.
and one of your board members talked you into it, or
convinced you that it was the right time.
And you did this formula. It all worked out for you.
knowing that number also helps you reverse engineer. The business around the right targets, too, doesn't it?
Dustin Wells (15:48):
Well, they could if my goal was an exit, and so
Govindh Jayaraman (15:52):
Yeah.
Dustin Wells (15:52):
And while I had done the numbers in my head and had my numbers, I also wasn't optimizing the business so I could hit those numbers to what we talked about earlier, and, in fact, I got really good advice very early on to always pay yourself first.st
And so I took money off the table every year to a point where
(16:14):
I already hit my 1st number, from just the
the excess profits that I was able to take off the table every year.
and one year it's maybe 10,000 and another year. It's a hundred 1,000. And then, as you grow, the business that that number starts to increase.
but I would always keep 6 months of runway cash in the business, and never tapped our line of credit except for one time in 20 years.
(16:40):
and paying yourself 1st
ended up being one of the best moves, because one. I already built a certain amount of success financially
based on that. But then, secondly, when it did come to an exit, I didn't need the money anymore.
Govindh Jayaraman (16:57):
Right.
Dustin Wells (16:58):
And I have a friend that sold had a very similar business.
but was more in debt, and did not take money off the table they sold for about half of what we sold for in a very similar business, because I had the optionality to wait.
and to also just be a little more stern in the negotiations, because I didn't need it.
Govindh Jayaraman (17:19):
Right?
I think that's really so. This idea of profit. First, st the idea of paying yourself 1st is is really challenging for a lot of people especially small.
And and the idea really is that look, if you've got this much revenue rather than revenue minus expenses, equals profit, it's revenue minus profit equals. This is what you got to run your business with.
(17:46):
and that changes the mindset, doesn't it?
Dustin Wells (17:49):
Well, I think it does in most. But the the trap that most people fall into, and it's
and it's elusive and sexy. But they take all the profits, and they put it into next year.
and then reinvest it back in the business.
And I would do that, too, after I took my cut out
right. So and I always paid myself first, st
(18:10):
and even if it was a little bit like I said earlier, it's just the habit and the discipline of doing that.
And what happens?
You know, 9 out of 10 times. Unfortunately, when most people just file everything back into the business. They don't get the outcomes that they were hoping for. The Roi is not there.
and they end up in a similar position that they would have ended up. Had they just paid themselves 1st already
Govindh Jayaraman (18:34):
It's almost like paying yourself 1st is summiting your current mountain, the current mountain
Dustin Wells (18:39):
Yeah.
Govindh Jayaraman (18:40):
Right it. It's almost like that you're you're adopting that philosophy within the business also, isn't it?
Dustin Wells (18:50):
I love that. Yeah, if you think of each year as as a small hike up up this.
you know
Govindh Jayaraman (18:56):
This foothills.
Dustin Wells (18:56):
1,000 foot mountain or whatever. Yeah.
absolutely. I love that idea of. And let's celebrate success each year.
and and let's take it off, and then let's see what we're left over with. I would absolutely reinvest profits every year. 100.
I wouldn't pocket everything and then start from 0.
But
And those investments paid off sometimes, and sometimes they didn't. But it was never
(19:21):
it. It really set set me up where I didn't had a lot of optionality. I didn't have to do things that I didn't want to do.
which is where I'm at now, too, but in a different way.
Govindh Jayaraman (19:32):
So that discipline. Let's talk about the discipline of taking a little bit off, leaving a little bit in growing like what that ratio was. Do you remember the ratios in the early days? Do the ratios change over time? What did that look like
Dustin Wells (19:46):
Yeah, there was no ratio. I say discipline. And and now I'm going to come up with an approach that doesn't sound very disciplined. But it was, you know, maybe one year
we wanted to buy a new house, and so I pulled the down payment out
of the business and use and said, We're gonna use this in 6 months for the down payment.
(20:06):
it. It's much harder, especially when when you're not as profitable to have that discipline, because the allure to kind of reinvest that back
feels like a lot more of a pull.
One thing that we always focused on was in our business with software consulting for context was trying to hit 20% profit
(20:27):
like net profit.
And that's a very healthy target. Most businesses and services.
If you're the the top of the top. Like Capgemini's, you're probably at 8 to 10%.
12% is considered healthy. 15 is considered outstanding. We always shop for 20. We hit somewhere between 15 and 20,
most years.
(20:48):
And so I think maybe what you're targeting
also drives what's available at the end so that you can have that discipline to pull some out
Govindh Jayaraman (20:59):
So your target
really influences your outcome is what you said there, right? Like having a 20% target. I mean, if you had a 10% target.
you wouldn't have hit 20. That's for sure.
Dustin Wells (21:13):
Yeah.
Yeah. Well, yeah, my, I have an old band director, a jazz band director. And this was in the context of like marching band or something, but he said, it's better to shoot for perfection and miss than shoot for imperfection and hit it.
and that's always stuck with me, and and that can get too extreme, like, you know, if you're a 10 million dollar company. And you say I want to hit a hundred 1 million dollars this year. It's probably not realistic. So
(21:35):
what's the stretch? But what's realistic as far as a goal? And how do you set that in your sites?
Govindh Jayaraman (21:40):
Yeah, that's amazing. So when you when you think about those little Mini victories, those annual victories, and then turning it into this other thing. Now think about a post exit. You know all that structure that you had right around summiting those little mountains every single year has changed.
How have you brought that sense of discipline into what you're doing now.
Dustin Wells (22:04):
Well, I don't know if I have. I'm just starting that sense of discipline. I've really considered the last almost 3 years to be opening the aperture and just exploring without any expectations about where it might go.
And I've gone down a lot of rabbit holes that then I've come up and realized that that's not where I'm interested in.
and so just give you myself. Permission to play and explore has been the priority.
(22:29):
I still continue to grow. I still continue to be in programs and with coaching and and other things.
But it's much more on a spiritual journey for me than it is on a business side, but that is all culminating into something where
in the last month I have started to apply a lot more discipline with some daily practices that I want to that are important to me.
(22:50):
that can drive me forward towards that goal
Govindh Jayaraman (22:53):
And one of the things I think is really interesting. And and I and I really you know, I
full disclosure to everybody listening. Dustin and I
have met in some of these coaching circles the training that we've that we've gone through, and actually happened to be in the same classroom together.
(23:14):
And so I've seen that side of you. But one of the things that I think you have innate comfort with is the sense that there is value to everything that people do, and I think it comes from this abundance mindset.
But this.
this discipline and rigor that you have around there is a value, and that value should be captured.
(23:39):
as you've gone through that spiritual journey. Have you observed that in these other areas that are not tech, so tech is very.
This is the deliverable. This is the thing. This is the project. This is the other explorations you've been doing, or maybe a little more nebulous. Is it interesting to see other sectors, and how they don't
(23:59):
have that same understanding of value that business past has
Dustin Wells (24:05):
Yeah, I think, just to clarify like, there's
there's a lot of certain like I'm in a very
important circle to me around a conscious community which involves
like plant medicines and sound healings and a bunch of other healing modalities, body work. And I found in that in that group
(24:26):
that typically there's more of a like sharing and barter economy than than a traditional, maybe capitalist economy.
And as I move into that circle and with the offerings that feel important and aligned to me.
One thing that is very top of mind is to not fall into that mindset.
(24:49):
and that I wanna. And maybe it gives me frankly an unfair advantage
if I bring, like this entrepreneurial mindset, and I'm going to use the word without apologizing like a capitalist mindset
to charging what I'm the value that I'm bringing
and to not barter and to not discount it, and to not excuse it, because
(25:10):
there's other people that charge less like I. What I'm bringing is is valuable and important.
and and how this is manifesting for me right now is probably through a coaching practice. But I'm still exploring that, and I plan to charge a lot for it.
and I think it will be worth it.
And I'm gonna bring a lot of different modalities into that to make it valuable.
(25:36):
And there's a lot of other opportunities
where there are coaches in a similar space that have similar modalities where they're going to charge a lot less.
And I'm not gonna discount what I'm doing
to fit into that model. I don't know if that kind of hits on what what you're going for. That's what seems to me
Govindh Jayaraman (25:55):
And I think it. I think it really all comes from this.
you know, to me I'm just.
I'm I'm inspired
by this abundance mindset that you brought to a company that was making $18,000 when you started.
and you maintain that mindset all the way through. And this idea
(26:15):
that you not only built a company that you want to work with
work at, but also set out and spun out other companies that are similar to yours that you know other people would say directly competed with yours.
But you saw that as complimentary. And then you're bringing that same sort of idea to what you're
(26:36):
doing now in a, in a field or in a sphere where that may be
just as foreign as it was back then. And I think that's interesting right
Dustin Wells (26:48):
Yeah, I I love how you said that. And it is my every intention that I'm not gonna go down this path alone. I plan to bring
whoever wants to join me on the journey
together, because we're all gonna have offerings we want to bring to the table.
and they'll get paid well for what they're bringing.
And so yeah, this isn't I. It may have sounded a little harsh of like I'm taking this capitalist mindset into this other circle where that's not really a very common approach.
(27:16):
But I plan to my my goal is to help all boats rise
with with that approach, and with this community that we want to build
Govindh Jayaraman (27:25):
So do you find it at times?
What? How do you handle the conflict when you have this integrative mindset right
in in a very distributive world, right?
The distributive world is that people think that there's a winner and a loser of every deal.
and you don't approach things that way, you know, like, I don't think that you, in hearing your story, you don't approach anything that way. You look at everything as an integrative environment. Everything is abundance everybody can win. There is a system where that happens.
(28:00):
How do you approach people who are really distributive, who are really winners and losers? You're threatening me.
and what? How do you bring them over to your side, or do you
Dustin Wells (28:11):
You know, that's that's a really good question. And and
I've done it a couple of different ways.
I've approached this problem in a couple of different ways, I should say I used to. The most frustrating thing to me is is that when 2 people are playing by different sets of rules.
and if I'm coming from this abundance and and win win mindset like that feels aligned to me.
(28:37):
But when I'm
confronted in the situations where the other person is playing by different rules. My former approach would have been to continue to
this feels like a value judgment. But take the high road, and and I would lose.
I would lose, and that served me well
overall. If you look at the scoreboard like
(28:59):
I'm winning still, even though I lost on those
what I've started to do in the last 5 years.
And I feel aligned to this as long as I'm not having to compromise my values.
If someone wants to play by a different set of rules, then I'll meet them on the field where they want to play.
And honestly, that's a new leap for me recently in the last 5 years or so. But
(29:25):
It served me well, and I found when I meet someone where they are coming from, not with
withstanding my values and keeping that intact.
It honestly, I think, is a healthy boundary
that I've learned how to put up.
and and I think that's also served me well.
(29:45):
And those situations have typically ended with a better outcome for me.
Then it would have had I done it the other way.
So you just
Govindh Jayaraman (29:57):
The high road and quote unquote high road, and said, Oh, they're going to play that way. I'm going to play this way, and whatever happens, happens, you're you're
you. You didn't always like the outcome to you in that situation, because maybe you weren't protecting your boundaries. But this way, when you
recognize the situation as it is.
(30:19):
you're better able to just be yourself and almost de-risk it so that you get a guarantee
Dustin Wells (30:25):
Yeah, honestly, yeah, I think I think it's a element of of a good leader that understands
how to stay authentic with yourself. But how to show up in a room
in a way that everyone can relate to.
And and so I want to be very careful that, like a chameleon comes to mind, but that could be interpreted as someone that is kind of shifting who they are to fit in. And I'm not saying that I'm saying, be authentic to you, but show up in a way that makes you more relatable. And so we think of it in a different context. And in these business contexts. If someone wants to show up in a way
(31:02):
that that feels like a 0 sum game.
then I've learned how to play that game
while keeping my core intact and my values intact.
Govindh Jayaraman (31:16):
What do you do to prepare for that? That's different than
you know. An integrated conversation, a win-win environment. How do you prepare for that differently, because there is. And I agree with you. I think
I think there's a flexibility of behavior, not a
Dustin Wells (31:33):
So.
Govindh Jayaraman (31:33):
Of persona, not a flexibility of character, but a flexibility of behavior that permits you to play on that field is the way you said it, so I agree with you. But what do you do to prepare yourself for those differences
Dustin Wells (31:47):
Yeah.
I love the word flexibility. Behavior like that's a great way to describe it. And I think that's a learned skill that gives you more in your toolbox to work with when you need it.
To prepare for that. I'm thinking of 2 specific examples that I'm not going to go into the details of, but to prepare i 1,
(32:08):
I double check the intentions of the other party or parties.
and I share my clear intentions of here's how I'd like this to go.
Here's what I'm perceiving from your side.
and I honestly, I loop around that 3 or 4 times to try to bring us all to a level of win win
(32:32):
when you meet, or when I've met people that have been inflexible or
just dogmatic about kind of their approach and where they want to go with it.
Then then that's where I pivot. And so the prep really starts with, can we please get aligned on this
because it's gonna be easier for everyone if we do.
And if we can talk about what our desired outcomes are, and not the egos in the room of how we got here, or
(32:59):
like I I the more you can put on the table for what makes us happy on each side, the better chance you have of reaching an agreement
that's mutually a win-win-win.
But when you're dogmatic and you're focused on one thing, call it the value of your company versus the payment terms.
The earn out the you know, just there's a hundred things you can put in a negotiation for a business exit, besides the price of the business, but if you're only focused on the price, you're much less likely to come up with an agreement
Govindh Jayaraman (33:32):
Yeah. So how do we put more on the table?
I love the transparency to come with to that. Is there anything that you need to do to reset after you play on a field. That's not where you want to be, generally speaking, or or is that an easy reset for you?
Dustin Wells (33:50):
You know I love the idea of a of a practice, maybe a cord cutting practice, or just a
a cleansing comes to mind, I haven't done that. I am dealing with a situation now that feels very similar
to this, where I think I'm gonna have to play on a different field that I don't like to play on
and I love the idea. The way I plan to go into those conversations is I'll probably meditate beforehand.
(34:11):
I'll do some sound work because I do a lot of work with. I'm a percussionist. So I work with a lot of different sound equipment and bowls and things like that. Just so I can be centered and come from a place of the most resources possible.
and so that I have the flexibility of behavior to go back to your phrase.
to show up in the
way that has the highest integrity for me, but also shows up in the way I need to show up
Govindh Jayaraman (34:35):
That's awesome.
Dustin. We've been ending every episode this season with an expression of gratitude, and it comes from John Rulin, who is a early guest on the podcast he grew to some international notoriety around a book that he wrote called Giftology. He's got a new book out now as well, and he suddenly passed away, and in honor of his memory we are paying forward his message
(35:01):
with asking every guest to show some appreciation. So his paper napkin was what you appreciate appreciates. And we're asking our guests to show some appreciation in the world. Is there someone that you'd like to shout out somebody that you'd like to appreciate, to close the episode
Dustin Wells (35:18):
Yeah, what comes to mind, as you were saying, that is, anyone that's trusted me
to be a part of their journey feels really poignant to me right now. So anyone that I've worked with any clients. So that's a broad bucket. But that feels
really alive for me right now.
If I have to get more specific, I think my board
(35:42):
that was a personal advisory board that also really focused on the business, because that was a big part of my life
like that was a turning point in my life and in my career
to have a group that held up the mirror for me. So just want to show immense gratitude to that group
for being there for me and for sharing selflessly.
(36:04):
that feels like a very pivotal time in my life, and feel a lot of gratitude towards them as well
Govindh Jayaraman (36:09):
Thanks for joining me. Justin.
Dustin Wells (36:11):
Yeah. Good to see you, brother.
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