May 22, 2025 • 38 mins
In Episode 246 of Paper Napkin Wisdom, Govindh Jayaraman sits down with Ari Galper, the world’s leading authority on trust-based selling and the creator of the revolutionary “One Call Sale” method. With over 25 years of experience, Ari has completely flipped the traditional sales script. His approach isn’t about pressure, persuasion, or playing games—it’s about trust, truth, and transformation.
Ari’s method is especially relevant for high-trust, low-volume, high-margin businesses where chasing leads and long sales cycles create drag. His model is designed to remove the friction of multiple meetings and speed up decision-making—without sacrificing relationship or integrity. And he sketches it all out on a paper napkin with just four words and a powerful philosophy.
“The sale is lost not because you didn’t ‘close’ well… but because trust wasn’t built fast enough.”
The Four-Step Framework on Ari’s Napkin
At first glance, Ari’s napkin looks simple:
-
Dr.-Patient Mindset
-
Go Down the Iceberg
-
Show Your Road Map
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Onboard New Client
But each of these is a deep shift from traditional selling.
Step 1: The Dr.-Patient Mindset
Ari starts with what he calls the “Dr.-Patient Mindset.” Instead of showing up as a seller, you show up like a doctor—with calm authority and the right questions.
“When you go to the doctor, they don’t say, ‘Let me tell you about my credentials.’ They ask you, ‘Where does it hurt?’”
In this approach, the salesperson isn’t trying to impress; they’re trying to understand. This subtle shift immediately positions the conversation as diagnostic rather than transactional.
Step 2: Go Down the Iceberg
Next, Ari encourages us to “Go Down the Iceb
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Govindh Jayaraman (00:03):
Ari Galper. Welcome to paper napkin wisdom. I'm excited to see you in 2 dimensions today.
Ari Galper - Trust-Based Selling (00:08):
Yeah, absolutely looking forward to it as well
Govindh Jayaraman (00:11):
Yeah, last time we saw each other we were in 3 dimensions in a beautiful setting. The Ucla Anderson has a beautiful facility up in Lake Arrowhead, and you and I were both presenting to the CEO Forum there. But you've shared a really interesting paper napkin with me, and I can't wait to dive in.
(00:31):
so it's called the one call sale.
and then you've got 4 points below it. But why don't we just start with the one call sale. What are you talking about when you say one call sale
Ari Galper - Trust-Based Selling (00:42):
Sure. So for the audience I specialize in a unique niche called trust-based selling, which is how to be able to compress your sales, cycle and build trust with a new opportunity, a new client in one conversation. It's designed for low volume, high margin businesses that have a high trust business, but got to chase leads all the time. So I've been up for 25 years. So I spent a lot of time figuring out, how can I optimize the sales process to reduce friction and reduce time.
(01:10):
and essentially believe it or not, sounds like common sense. But the goal is to eliminate things from the process to reduce the time you're with somebody. So what I've come up with is something called the one call sale, framework and model, which is more of a doctor patient framework when you're with a new opportunity and see on Zoom, for instance, there's no selling, there's no presenting, there's no education, there's no consulting, and there's nothing about you. It's only about them
Govindh Jayaraman (01:38):
So you know, this is really amazing. So, and that's the 1st step on your napkin. It says Doctor patient mindset.
And this is really
a different way to think about it. Right? You're you're you're approaching. And and you're you're suggesting that that
we take the approach of the doctor, not the patient, correct
Ari Galper - Trust-Based Selling (01:58):
Exactly right. They're the patient. You're the expert. They're not.
So the concept here is this is not a peer. Let's become friends. Kumbaya relationship building call. We are not peers. You're the expert. They're the patient. When you go see a doctor. What's the 1st thing it says to you, where does it hurt? Doesn't say, Hey, what brought you in? They want to have a cup of coffee, hey? I love your shirt. Where are you from? They don't try and become your friend for a reason.
(02:23):
because if they cross social and business norms they can't get to the hard truth behind your problem.
So that 1st pillar like you said is doctor patient shift and problem centric versus solution. Centric thinking
Govindh Jayaraman (02:36):
Now let's push back on that for a second, Ari, because, you know.
part of that is, you have to behave like an expert. Right. That's 1 of the things that you're setting up that you have to behave like the expert, and that means
not getting into, you know the nice shirt, nice hat. Nice, whatever right you're you're just getting into the point, getting into the point of the conversation. But there's another part of that. Is you have that status until you lose it. And don't we give it up? Often, like in those kinds of relationships, like the typical model
(03:11):
is, the expert doesn't act like the expert. The expert gives up the expertise or gives up the seat way too early, right
Ari Galper - Trust-Based Selling (03:18):
Yeah, because, see, we've been programmed to think our job as experts is to demonstrate our expertise.
We got to educate them. We got to flex. Show them we know what we're talking about, right? We got to prove ourselves. But in this model they're not questioning your efficacy because they assume you can do the job because they're showing up. They're questioning this, do I trust him? That's not about expertise. It's about your ability to understand their problem at such a deep level. They say to themselves, Man, this guy just gets me
Govindh Jayaraman (03:49):
Right.
Ari Galper - Trust-Based Selling (03:50):
It's emotional, not intellectual.
Govindh Jayaraman (03:53):
So so once we've got this doctor-patient mindset. And and okay, let's let's let's get into this one more step.
Sure what it's a mindset. Right? So what do you suggest the expert does before getting into the call? Because I assume there's a setup to that right like, what do we have to do before we get in the call before we we or before we get in the room. Either way. Right? What do we have to do
Ari Galper - Trust-Based Selling (04:17):
Yeah, you got to pre position yourself as what I call the trusted authority on the problem that you solve, not on your solution, but on the problem. And so you want your lead pre-meeting to somehow consume something that lets them know that you're the category of one, the only person who understands them the most prior to them showing up
(04:42):
that when they show up they're not questioning you. Where'd you go to school? Who's your clients? There's no pummeling of objections. It's
I can see. You know what you're talking about. I'm game now. Your job is to take control at Hello, and start going to what I call down the iceber. The second column peeling back the onion
Govindh Jayaraman (05:03):
Okay. So we've established the expertise we're showing up with the right mindset. We're showing up as the expert. Then we, this is, Step 2 go down the iceberg. What do you mean by that?
Ari Galper - Trust-Based Selling (05:16):
Okay, so imagine an iceberg, right? It kind of looks like this. The top of the iceberg is when they're giving you their basically the surface level problem.
Here's my problem. And as experts, what do we do? Not new to us, we've heard it a thousand times, so we assess it. We qualify it, and off we go to the races. The difference now is, you're not going to try to solve the problem. You're going to have a languaging what I call trust-based, languaging to peel the onion back, to go so deep down the expert below the surface level that they can't help but to feel this deep connection to you, because you're the only person that didn't rush to the answer.
(05:49):
And how you do that is using trust-based languaging. So one of the samples under that second column when you show up for zoom, here's what you say.
Obviously nice to meet you, govin. Nice to meet you as well.
then, you say, if it's okay with you, if you wouldn't mind, take a step back for a moment, walk me through your background, your situation up to your current business concerns or financial whatever you sell financial concerns we'll go from there. Would that be okay with you? Take your fingers like this over your mouth. Sit back like a doctor.
(06:17):
Let them see you physically sitting back. So they understand. This is space you're creating. And it isn't about you. Today. You're not talking. It's only about them that begins to open up the iceberg, to go through a series of what I call trust, based selling questions, not fact-finding questions.
Govindh Jayaraman (06:33):
Alright so, Ari, tell me about what some of these questions would look like.
Ari Galper - Trust-Based Selling (06:38):
Sure.
But yeah, I love it, man, you're so good. You're quick, excellent. So the 1st question, so they describe their problem to you right as an expert your instinct will be. I can fix that you want to solve in your
Govindh Jayaraman (06:50):
And you want to sell them on the act on the solution right away.
Ari Galper - Trust-Based Selling (06:54):
That's what you do. As an expert
Govindh Jayaraman (06:56):
I'm perfect for them
Ari Galper - Trust-Based Selling (06:58):
Perfect, but in this model you are not to size them up and attempt to provide an answer at all. Stay, present, stay calm.
and then what you do is you listen carefully and you crystallize their core issue. And you say, from what I'm hearing from you, Govin, your main core issue is X. Is that right? They go exactly.
(07:20):
Next question down the iceberg. How long
have you been concerned about this? For
what have you done so far on your own
to attempt to resolve this by yourself.
Okay, then the middle layer is called coi cost of an action.
(07:40):
It's reverse engineering. The problem you've got to help them see the impact of not solving it.
Help them build a business case for why, it's yeah. Go ahead.
Govindh Jayaraman (07:50):
Yeah. So the question is essentially like, what is.
do you have an idea what this is costing you to continue in this way?
Ari Galper - Trust-Based Selling (07:59):
Beautiful. The language you can use for that is, are phrases like this.
Have you thought about
Govindh Jayaraman (08:04):
Have you considered
Ari Galper - Trust-Based Selling (08:06):
Are you aware of the impact your team right now by not having this in place? Have you calculated the cost of those people you lost last month. How is it affecting you at home? You've got to help them dimensionalize the problem. Otherwise they don't see how serious it is. If they don't own the problem. They sure as Heck aren't going to pay you to fix it
Govindh Jayaraman (08:23):
Now, look, you're coming to this Ari, with a lot of expertise and passion. I can see the energy
and and was this always natural to you. Is this the way that you always did it is this, I mean, you have a you have a lifetime in sales.
Was this the way that you started selling right away
Ari Galper - Trust-Based Selling (08:42):
Now, this is 25 years in development.
I've been building this for 25 years. I just figured this out with this kind of clarity and advanced thinking. Only 4 or 5 years ago. I've been toiling away at this for a long time. If you look me up online, you'll see, I've been doing this for 2 decades, and I finally cracked the code on the ultimate one call sale process, which is trust oriented. That gets a commitment to a next step. After the 1st meeting
Govindh Jayaraman (09:06):
So why did you crack the code? Why was this a code that you needed to crack
Ari Galper - Trust-Based Selling (09:10):
Great question. This comes from my original story. That happened to me a shift that happened to me years ago. I mentioned the story at the event where I was on a live sales call with a new opportunity. I worked for a tech company back then, and I'll never forget this. The group I was talking to on this conference call
gave me all the signals they wanted to buy from me. They told me everything I wanted to hear we love. It sounds great. You might recall the story at the end of the meeting, they said, look, we'll follow up with this. Follow up with us. We'll move this thing forward, I said myself. Perfect sales call, and I reached for the phone by accident. Hit the mute button instead of the off button. A click happened. They stopped talking. They started talking amongst themselves. What I heard was the complete opposite. It wasn't the truth, they said. We're not going to go with him, keep using him.
(09:52):
And I realized at that moment there is a this is a dysfunctional process going on here where they aren't comfortable, telling me the truth.
They lied to me, and I said to myself, I'm going to make it my lifetime career to figure out how to untangle the sales conversation, so it no longer ends up in a game that one's playing, and no one gets the truth behind it.
Govindh Jayaraman (10:13):
Yeah. And and I think that what's power, what? What?
What I love about that story
is the solution. You made the solution. You sort of like carved out of stone really
is about trust and telling the truth. It isn't about
like you're not setting up for a lie right when you come up at the beginning.
(10:37):
really, actually interested in their problem and digging down into it.
You're you're not setting yourself up as a trusted advisor. You're actually being one
Ari Galper - Trust-Based Selling (10:50):
You're right, demonstrating. Live that you are not like what they expect you to be
Govindh Jayaraman (10:56):
Right.
Ari Galper - Trust-Based Selling (10:57):
And you're right. The whole premise of this
is about not selling at all. Not focusing on the sale. I mentioned that the talk at Ucla, I said, throw away your sales books and never attend any sales training class ever again. Selling is the problem. Stop selling. Learn a new skill, which is how to create trust with people I don't mean you're not trustworthy, I mean, like you said, convey and prove that you don't have a hidden agenda
Govindh Jayaraman (11:25):
Right by putting it all out there and and by being clear. And you know you're you're you're exaggerating the physical cue about sitting back and covering your mouth.
But but it's it's necessary in this world, because, like the sales process is so documented, so and and so formulaic out there, right, and everybody's talking about funnels and funnels and funnels that nobody's funnels work. None of these funnels work
Ari Galper - Trust-Based Selling (11:52):
Look, funnels have been commoditized
Govindh Jayaraman (11:54):
Right.
Ari Galper - Trust-Based Selling (11:55):
Nobody wants to go through multiple steps to get their answers solved. All they want. Let me tell you what this comes down to.
If you really simplify this to the ultimate goal, all you want them is to feel comfortable. Saying these words to you.
I'm in. Let's do this
right. Why does it take multiple steps and meetings and months to get to that moment of? I'm in. Let's do this. Why? Because your process does not have trust in it for them to say those words. The process is broken
Govindh Jayaraman (12:24):
Right.
And I think this is what's really neat about the next one. So step one, doctor, patient mindset. It's a mindset thing. Put yourself in the place of expertise. First, st then go down the iceberg, ask the questions beyond it, make sure that you're aligned with them on what it costs not to solve the problem. What it costs.
(12:47):
Truly, what is it costing them now? And you talk about that as being reverse engineering? And that takes us to step 3 further down your napkin, which is, show your roadmap. This is not a funnel, this is a roadmap. This is a process, and I love this piece.
Tell, tell us what that means. What does it mean by showing your roadmap
Ari Galper - Trust-Based Selling (13:06):
Well, it's like that napkin you've got that. It shows the steps. It's a linear step-by-step process that's a roadmap, I call it, and your goal at the bottom of the iceberg is to ask this question, to move them to the next stage, which is, is this a priority for you
to address once and for all, and I say, yes, it is. You say this. May I walk you through my process and roadmap for how you work from here. Guy goes. Sure, because you've given them 0 so far about you. Just the problem. Only so up comes a visual pathway that you show them not your services, not your fees, but a Meta step, a mental framework and model that can see for how you think and what your process is. Now. Most experts already have a process, but the problem is they verbalize it.
(13:48):
Oh, next step is this, we have a meeting. We do the discovery session, and they're like
in out this ear out the other ear. They cannot process what you're saying audibly, but when you show it to them visually in a simple napkin like step-by-step process. They see it, they believe it, they hear it
does not compute, they get scared by it. What they say is, I want to think about it.
Govindh Jayaraman (14:10):
And and this is the critical part. And and this is sort of like this almost helps you with step one too.
documenting and being able to build a simple roadmap by which you take the steps, not the solution, right? This is a very critical thing. The steps, not the solution and diagram that from somebody from this point forward. Right? That's that helps to build your expertise. If you can do that, if you can express
(14:40):
your process simply. Well, then, you can invite somebody to join you on that on that trek right
Ari Galper - Trust-Based Selling (14:46):
You said a key word right there. Simplicity. What I realized is, I discovered we're now in the age of commodization. Okay, complexity equals distrust, simplicity equals trust. If you simplify your process. So it's so pedestrian level, it's so simple for the average person, and they can see what your process is to fix the problem, and you say to them, What are your thoughts on the roadmap, John
Govindh Jayaraman (15:11):
Right.
Ari Galper - Trust-Based Selling (15:12):
Guy goes makes sense.
You're 90%. There.
Govindh Jayaraman (15:17):
Selling them anything. You're just selling them. You're conveying a process
Ari Galper - Trust-Based Selling (15:21):
There's no solution. It's just the process to get to the answer.
Govindh Jayaraman (15:25):
Right, right.
Ari Galper - Trust-Based Selling (15:28):
That's all they want. They want to see structure that gives them peace of mind.
Govindh Jayaraman (15:33):
Yeah. And and I think that you said something about how the roadmap has to be
one slide. It has to be a 1 pager. It can't be a multi-pager. It can't be a prize inside. It can't be a kinder egg, which you just keep on opening up, and it's another one, and it's another one, and it's another one. It's got to be evident, right? It's got to be clear
Ari Galper - Trust-Based Selling (15:54):
You know what's funny? I asked my new clients to come on board with our team, and I asked them, show me your process that you have right now that you show clients. Oh, my! It looks like the freeway, the La Highway. It's got circles and arrows and symbols and Logos I'm like.
are you kidding me?
This makes no sense to me, but it makes sense to me. Well, that's the problem. Who cares about you? It's about them, and I got to rework the whole thing and make it easy for them
Govindh Jayaraman (16:19):
Right? Right? So you show them your roadmap, and then
you go to onboard. The new client! There's no sale there, right? What are you talking about as being the
Ari Galper - Trust-Based Selling (16:30):
No, it's not a signed contract. What it is is a commitment
could be paid for, sure to engage with you and schedule the next step in your process.
So let's just say, Gove, and you're a consultant, and your next step would be a. This diagnostic needs assessment or a discovery session.
because the 1st meeting is not discovery. The 1st version is, in fact, finding goals. None of that's what we just talked about. The next session is discovery. You can charge a fee for your discovery process the analysis behind that and the plan behind that 3 bubbles. So you might say this, the guy says, do you make sense
Govindh Jayaraman (17:10):
And you say
Ari Galper - Trust-Based Selling (17:11):
Where would you like to go from here?
Notice the space I'm creating?
They step into it. Then you say they say, Well, how do you work of it? You say it's real simple, real, simple. From here we schedule a time right now to have you come back and start with phase one in our process. It's a nominal one time fee of 5 K. That's it. To have us work with you through phase 1, 2, and 3 to flesh out your situation and get a priority list together, and a plan to go with from there, you say, how does that sound to you? And they go sounds good
Govindh Jayaraman (17:41):
That's right, that's great.
Ari Galper - Trust-Based Selling (17:44):
0 selling.
Govindh Jayaraman (17:46):
Yeah, 0 submit. And one of the one of the things that I I look, I I
I think that I'm frustrated by in the past when I'm
when I'm engaging with a client. They they don't.
They don't want to take that next step now.
and I have to follow up. So I am in the follow-up loop, and I'm chasing them and chasing them and chasing them, and I get ghosted, and and I think I've been there, and I think everybody's been there.
(18:14):
How does your process deal with that kind of a thing?
Ari Galper - Trust-Based Selling (18:17):
Well, the 2 tips here.
let's say you're now in chasing mode. You haven't learned my stuff yet. You're still stuck in the old world and chasing normal for you. Okay, let me give you everyone your tip right now to help everybody. I'm gonna ask all your listeners to never again or viewers to ever, never again, as of today, use the word follow up ever again the rest of their life.
The word follow-up is a sales word.
(18:39):
right. When you call somebody I'm calling to follow up. What does that tell them you're moving them towards a sale. Their guard goes up. You're a salesperson, not an expert. Here's what you say. Instead, I'm giving you a call, or in your email to see if you have any
feedback on our previous conversation, any feedback on our last meeting, any feedback on a proposal, you have to go backwards, away from the sale, not towards it. The word feedback elicits the truth.
(19:05):
and they engaged you. That's the way to bring your ghost out of the closet back on your calendar again. Now, if you, if you master the one call sale process.
You'll never be ghosted ever again. Because here's why the reason why you're ghosted, because somewhere along the way, in your 1st meeting what you did was unconsciously you educated them, gave them information which now forced them to do. What think about it?
Govindh Jayaraman (19:29):
Right.
Ari Galper - Trust-Based Selling (19:31):
And when you, when they think about, here's the thing. People's minds are so fragmented right now with the world going on right now, if you input new information in that 1st meeting, they got to go, think about it, and they go to Black Hole and you're dead. It's over.
That's why I'm encouraging anyone listening to this. Understand the process. You'll learn it to remove all the elements out of this thing. So there's nothing to think about. Only question they have is, do they want to solve the problem or not? Yes or no, not to hire you? That's not the decision to make
Govindh Jayaraman (19:58):
So
let's let's pretend for a second. Let's go through the process, and let's just push back against it a little bit. Let's say I'm talking to
somebody, and they're part of a team. They have 10 people as part of their team, and as they go down the iceberg they start telling me about the team. And you know there's 8 or 9 people, and that they, you know, one of the problems that they have is making decisions are so hard, because, you know, they've got this complicated decision-making process, and we can never get anything done, and and so on and so forth.
(20:29):
How do you handle that information when you get it as you go down the iceberg, because that's that's where it would come up right. If you do this right. One of the problems they may have is implementing change because there's no clear decision maker. How how do you handle that?
Ari Galper - Trust-Based Selling (20:44):
You're saying that they're not the decision maker or the other decision maker. Besides that.
Govindh Jayaraman (20:46):
There are other decision makers in addition to them.
Ari Galper - Trust-Based Selling (20:49):
No problem that'll happen in a very complex environment, a corporate environment, for sure. That's fine. You don't change your process just because of that you still go down the iceberg social the roadmap. And they're gonna say to you, what's the next step? You're gonna probably say to you? I've got Mike, my Cfo and my CEO is gonna be involved with this as well. You see, no problem is what you say. Let's schedule a time
(21:13):
for all of us if you'd be open to it to get together, and I'll walk them through this process like I did with you and answer questions for them. But there'll be 0 presentation and 0 selling only diagnostically of their issues. How's that sound to you, Mike? They got to trust you to bring you inside their inner circle. If you're selling to them, they ain't going to bring you in because you're a vendor. When this process is created, they shepherd you inside because they can see, because here's the thing they're judging you.
(21:41):
not any information. They're judging you on your approach.
They're buying your
Govindh Jayaraman (21:47):
No, hold on. Don't let that go away, because I think that's a really important piece.
I think that you're absolutely right. I think that most of the time when I'm assessing people calling me. And we like you, we get called all the time right? We're always dealing with these calls. We're always dealing with these emails.
And I think that we're assessing their approach
(22:10):
and wondering whether or not that approach is right for us. Not whether or not the solution. I mean, there's a billion solutions.
But is the approach something that I can trust?
Why didn't?
That's the powerful question.
And I think that what you're suggesting is that it's really sort of like a deprogramming that we have to go through because we
(22:34):
we're the problem we keep on jumping to this.
I'll solve your problems and just let me do it. I'll come in and take over.
But that's not what people want
Ari Galper - Trust-Based Selling (22:46):
We have been programmed brainwashed. I'll use that word to
from the old what I call no like and trust model
where your job is to get to know someone they got to like. You got to educate them. And over time they trust you. The problem with that model is, there's no time anymore. So after the 1st meeting they're gone, they've ghosted you. So you have to remove the no process and the like process, and only folks in the trust process
(23:12):
to realize that they are hiring you now because you're commoditized. They're deciding on you by only what they can see and what they can hear if anything that you present or you say to them connects you to the notion of
flexing or selling. It's over at Hello.
Govindh Jayaraman (23:30):
Right.
Ari Galper - Trust-Based Selling (23:31):
But they won't tell you this because they'll be nice to you. But in the back of their mind they're going. This doesn't feel right
Govindh Jayaraman (23:37):
So, Ari, I don't have 25 years like you did this. It took you 25 years to decode this and reprogram yourself, and and you know I loved your story when I heard it the 1st time.
But when we don't have 25 years to come by this honestly, and you came by this honestly right. I fundamentally believe that we're our best when we give to the world what we needed ourselves. And you needed this.
(24:05):
And you solved this. So someone listening.
where do they start? What's the 1st step
Ari Galper - Trust-Based Selling (24:13):
Honestly, if this resonates with people, and it makes sense to them, I would start by reading one of my books
And learning how to do it, because in that book that I have, it's my new one just came out called Trust a split second, they can order my book, and we can offer the link if you want now or later, whatever, and they can learn, order the book, schedule a chat with me or one of my folks on my team and go through the process and learn how we teach you to do what we're trying to teach you right. If you don't live it, live, order our book, learn it, and have a chat with someone on my team. Then you won't believe it's true. You won't believe it's even possible
Govindh Jayaraman (24:51):
Right. So what about
what's a small thing that they can try? What's it like? A what's a taster size version of
to try right? That
Ari Galper - Trust-Based Selling (24:59):
First, st
Govindh Jayaraman (25:00):
I believe that everybody can do something to get familiar with this while they're waiting for the book to arrive.
1st thing is
Ari Galper - Trust-Based Selling (25:09):
Shut up!
Govindh Jayaraman (25:12):
Sounds, easy
Ari Galper - Trust-Based Selling (25:13):
Stop talking.
This sounds. It sounds so crazy what I just said. What
but if I listen to recordings right now of most of your listeners doing a sales call or having a meeting with someone. I'd probably hear 80, 20, them talking 20%. We can't help ourselves because we feel we have to engage people. So 1st thing is stop
(25:35):
talking, stop selling
instead, identify and unpack. I call like a tree exercise where you have a little trunk of a tree. Write down the core problem in that trunk, that is, that you helped your client solve and then have some branches come off the back of that. That is their subproblems. Okay, have that visual in your mind.
So when they get you and you say to them, What are your challenges right now. And they tell you that trunk problem or a tree problem. Then you know where to take it from. There, start with that piece in your mind. So you're problem centric. That'll begin the shift
Govindh Jayaraman (26:08):
Yeah. And so so the the 1st step really does sound like.
build your roadmap. Understand what that looks like? Right? Do your trunk problem where you really understand your process, and if you don't do that.
and I think if you do that, then the next part of that is going down the iceberg. Those questions become very logical because you have to adopt this curious mindset
(26:36):
and curious mindset is you're not right for everybody. That's okay. You're not going to solve everybody's problem. That's okay.
Right? So get curious about whether or not actually, they have the problem. And maybe, you know, do they value the fact that they have the problem, because that if they don't value it, if they say, Yeah, you know what? I don't think this is costing us anything it's a nice to have. It's not a good to have great.
(27:00):
See you later.
Ari Galper - Trust-Based Selling (27:01):
Right. You have to become a heat-seeking missile looking for the problem.
Now you'll find the problem. But here's the flip. If you don't have them own it and admit to you there's an impact to this. And if you don't ask this question, is this a priority for you? And they say yes, it is. Then you got nothing on your hands. You got air. Let them go
Govindh Jayaraman (27:24):
Yeah, and and that that's
hard for some people to do right. Like, I think that's that's really the problem. The problem is that we're not curious enough
about what's behind the problem and what our client, or what our would be client.
actually values the solution as
Ari Galper - Trust-Based Selling (27:44):
This goes back to what you said earlier. The goal is the truth, not the sale. If you can't go down the iceberg deep enough to get the truth of where everything sits.
You're playing a game of the top, and you're the ball, not the bat.
Govindh Jayaraman (27:57):
Yeah, so what? So you you had that sales that fateful sales call all those years ago where you pressed mute.
you know, and and what a gift it was for you that you were able to press mute, and you got to hear that
what's changed for you in your process since then? Like, how? How? What?
Ari Galper - Trust-Based Selling (28:16):
But how should
Govindh Jayaraman (28:17):
How's your world changed?
Ari Galper - Trust-Based Selling (28:18):
Thank you for asking that. What's shifted is that we don't chase anybody.
We have no follow-up emails, no proposals.
We don't even have any contracts anymore. So I realized that the person, the reason for agreements
is because of a lack of trust between 2 parties
Govindh Jayaraman (28:38):
Right.
Ari Galper - Trust-Based Selling (28:39):
We have verbal conversations with people. They agree, and we eliminated all the resistance constraints that anybody else is doing. And now we have endless flow of opportunity coming in because we removed the funnel process
and giving people what they want, which is
an appointment with the with the specialist, the surgeon that solves their problem, not someone trying to sell them. Not. Let's put it this way, being the doctor, not the pharmacist.
Govindh Jayaraman (29:06):
Right, right?
And and you know, here's what I think is really profound about what you just said. Because I think somewhere out there, someone's listening to this and going. Oh, my gosh! They don't even have a contracts. How do they get paid? How do they know they're going to get paid, what happens if they don't get paid? And what would you say to them? And I have a sense of what you might say? But what do you say to them?
Ari Galper - Trust-Based Selling (29:27):
Wow!
Almost everyone pays.
Govindh Jayaraman (29:30):
If they don't pay, we fire them right, because there was no trust
Ari Galper - Trust-Based Selling (29:35):
We don't accept behavior
that is, below our standards of integrity. If we notice any behavior of clients that feels dysfunctional or narcissistic or controlling or attempting to hijack the agenda.
We push a button called the Fire Button. You're you're out of there, I said. Get rid of them. I don't want anyone in our world or ecosystem
(29:58):
who does not respect and treat us like the doctors that we are
Govindh Jayaraman (30:01):
That's amazing. That's amazing. So that's what's changed for you. Right? People come to you for expertise. People come to you for the roadmap.
People.
People come to you because they know that you're going to help them build this together.
Ari Galper - Trust-Based Selling (30:15):
And they know they can trust. We're not going to use any sales, techniques, or behavior
Govindh Jayaraman (30:22):
Right. It's going to be their choice.
Ari Galper - Trust-Based Selling (30:24):
That they hate. They're going to want to make the decision themselves. We are not going to convince them
or persuade them in any way possible. They have to own it and ask us for help. Otherwise we're not going to work with them
Govindh Jayaraman (30:36):
Yeah, you know, one of the things that I really got from
this conversation is, you know, the sales funnel people think it's easy, right. You just throw things in the top of the funnel and it flows out the bottom.
But there's resistance all the way through that right. That's what the funnel does. The funnel creates resistance. The model creates resistance and
(30:57):
spoiler alert.
Who's pushing people through that funnel? It's you right. We're we're the force in the equation. We're adding all. We're the force against that friction
in your model.
It's there's there's less friction, less force. There is a simple acknowledgement based on trust and respect, and
(31:19):
it's gotta be lighter right? I mean, there's got to be a lot less frustrating days, mind boggling days of just banging your head against the wall, sending out 500 follow-up emails and not ever getting a response
Ari Galper - Trust-Based Selling (31:31):
There is no friction at all, because we don't use a funnel model. We use a cylinder model where you don't play the numbers game and put a lot at the top and spend all your time qualifying people and wasting your time. We use a cylinder concept where you only target your ideal clients and your trust models trust from Hello! And they just flow right on board. There is no friction at all.
Govindh Jayaraman (31:51):
Yeah. And that's the other part of this right.
Doctors don't treat everybody.
There's a specific doctor for certain things right? And and so, knowing your specialty helps you target your key clients right? Your your avatar is well known to you when you know what your specialty is, and that's the last piece of this ingredient. So when you reverse engineer this whole thing.
(32:15):
it's really about knowing who you serve.
understanding what matters, asking key questions and getting genuinely curious about it, working down that trunk, and then finally, having a process that you can articulate clearly that will
lead them to the solution, but not give it to them.
(32:36):
Is that right
Ari Galper - Trust-Based Selling (32:38):
Beautifully said
Govindh Jayaraman (32:39):
That's awesome. Ari. Thank you for joining me
Ari Galper - Trust-Based Selling (32:42):
No problem. Anybody wants my book. They go to the trustbook.com. They start
Govindh Jayaraman (32:46):
Yeah, we'll have all the links to the stuff that Ari's talked about is going to be in the show notes so definitely check that out. Actually, Ari, sorry I jumped too far. One of the things we've been doing in honor of John Ruland. John Ruland was a great fan of the show. In the early days he was on the Podcast he gave us a great gift. It's what you appreciate appreciates, was his paper napkin.
(33:07):
John suddenly passed away recently and in honor of John. We've been asking every guest this season to shout out an appreciation or a gratitude to somebody or something.
Who would you like to shout out today
Ari Galper - Trust-Based Selling (33:22):
I'd say my grandmother.
She was 101 years old when she passed away recently.
She was an entrepreneur, a business person like us, and I used to visit her quite a bit, had some diary with some notes I used to always leave with her, and she left this one statement and let him forget it, and it applies very much now.
she said. Successful people are made in good times and in bad times, which means the Times have nothing to do with it.
(33:48):
It has to do with your willingness to let go of what you're holding on to your old construct, and evolve, and be willing to fall on your sword and keep learning
Govindh Jayaraman (33:55):
That sounds like some great grandma wisdom. Thank you.
Ari Galper - Trust-Based Selling (34:00):
Sounds good
Ari Galper. Welcome to paper napkin wisdom. I'm excited to see you in 2 dimensions today.
Ari Galper - Trust-Based Selling (00:08):
Yeah, absolutely looking forward to it as well
Govindh Jayaraman (00:11):
Yeah, last time we saw each other we were in 3 dimensions in a beautiful setting. The Ucla Anderson has a beautiful facility up in Lake Arrowhead, and you and I were both presenting to the CEO Forum there. But you've shared a really interesting paper napkin with me, and I can't wait to dive in.
(00:31):
so it's called the one call sale.
and then you've got 4 points below it. But why don't we just start with the one call sale. What are you talking about when you say one call sale
Ari Galper - Trust-Based Selling (00:42):
Sure. So for the audience I specialize in a unique niche called trust-based selling, which is how to be able to compress your sales, cycle and build trust with a new opportunity, a new client in one conversation. It's designed for low volume, high margin businesses that have a high trust business, but got to chase leads all the time. So I've been up for 25 years. So I spent a lot of time figuring out, how can I optimize the sales process to reduce friction and reduce time.
(01:10):
and essentially believe it or not, sounds like common sense. But the goal is to eliminate things from the process to reduce the time you're with somebody. So what I've come up with is something called the one call sale, framework and model, which is more of a doctor patient framework when you're with a new opportunity and see on Zoom, for instance, there's no selling, there's no presenting, there's no education, there's no consulting, and there's nothing about you. It's only about them
Govindh Jayaraman (01:38):
So you know, this is really amazing. So, and that's the 1st step on your napkin. It says Doctor patient mindset.
And this is really
a different way to think about it. Right? You're you're you're approaching. And and you're you're suggesting that that
we take the approach of the doctor, not the patient, correct
Ari Galper - Trust-Based Selling (01:58):
Exactly right. They're the patient. You're the expert. They're not.
So the concept here is this is not a peer. Let's become friends. Kumbaya relationship building call. We are not peers. You're the expert. They're the patient. When you go see a doctor. What's the 1st thing it says to you, where does it hurt? Doesn't say, Hey, what brought you in? They want to have a cup of coffee, hey? I love your shirt. Where are you from? They don't try and become your friend for a reason.
(02:23):
because if they cross social and business norms they can't get to the hard truth behind your problem.
So that 1st pillar like you said is doctor patient shift and problem centric versus solution. Centric thinking
Govindh Jayaraman (02:36):
Now let's push back on that for a second, Ari, because, you know.
part of that is, you have to behave like an expert. Right. That's 1 of the things that you're setting up that you have to behave like the expert, and that means
not getting into, you know the nice shirt, nice hat. Nice, whatever right you're you're just getting into the point, getting into the point of the conversation. But there's another part of that. Is you have that status until you lose it. And don't we give it up? Often, like in those kinds of relationships, like the typical model
(03:11):
is, the expert doesn't act like the expert. The expert gives up the expertise or gives up the seat way too early, right
Ari Galper - Trust-Based Selling (03:18):
Yeah, because, see, we've been programmed to think our job as experts is to demonstrate our expertise.
We got to educate them. We got to flex. Show them we know what we're talking about, right? We got to prove ourselves. But in this model they're not questioning your efficacy because they assume you can do the job because they're showing up. They're questioning this, do I trust him? That's not about expertise. It's about your ability to understand their problem at such a deep level. They say to themselves, Man, this guy just gets me
Govindh Jayaraman (03:49):
Right.
Ari Galper - Trust-Based Selling (03:50):
It's emotional, not intellectual.
Govindh Jayaraman (03:53):
So so once we've got this doctor-patient mindset. And and okay, let's let's let's get into this one more step.
Sure what it's a mindset. Right? So what do you suggest the expert does before getting into the call? Because I assume there's a setup to that right like, what do we have to do before we get in the call before we we or before we get in the room. Either way. Right? What do we have to do
Ari Galper - Trust-Based Selling (04:17):
Yeah, you got to pre position yourself as what I call the trusted authority on the problem that you solve, not on your solution, but on the problem. And so you want your lead pre-meeting to somehow consume something that lets them know that you're the category of one, the only person who understands them the most prior to them showing up
(04:42):
that when they show up they're not questioning you. Where'd you go to school? Who's your clients? There's no pummeling of objections. It's
I can see. You know what you're talking about. I'm game now. Your job is to take control at Hello, and start going to what I call down the iceber. The second column peeling back the onion
Govindh Jayaraman (05:03):
Okay. So we've established the expertise we're showing up with the right mindset. We're showing up as the expert. Then we, this is, Step 2 go down the iceberg. What do you mean by that?
Ari Galper - Trust-Based Selling (05:16):
Okay, so imagine an iceberg, right? It kind of looks like this. The top of the iceberg is when they're giving you their basically the surface level problem.
Here's my problem. And as experts, what do we do? Not new to us, we've heard it a thousand times, so we assess it. We qualify it, and off we go to the races. The difference now is, you're not going to try to solve the problem. You're going to have a languaging what I call trust-based, languaging to peel the onion back, to go so deep down the expert below the surface level that they can't help but to feel this deep connection to you, because you're the only person that didn't rush to the answer.
(05:49):
And how you do that is using trust-based languaging. So one of the samples under that second column when you show up for zoom, here's what you say.
Obviously nice to meet you, govin. Nice to meet you as well.
then, you say, if it's okay with you, if you wouldn't mind, take a step back for a moment, walk me through your background, your situation up to your current business concerns or financial whatever you sell financial concerns we'll go from there. Would that be okay with you? Take your fingers like this over your mouth. Sit back like a doctor.
(06:17):
Let them see you physically sitting back. So they understand. This is space you're creating. And it isn't about you. Today. You're not talking. It's only about them that begins to open up the iceberg, to go through a series of what I call trust, based selling questions, not fact-finding questions.
Govindh Jayaraman (06:33):
Alright so, Ari, tell me about what some of these questions would look like.
Ari Galper - Trust-Based Selling (06:38):
Sure.
But yeah, I love it, man, you're so good. You're quick, excellent. So the 1st question, so they describe their problem to you right as an expert your instinct will be. I can fix that you want to solve in your
Govindh Jayaraman (06:50):
And you want to sell them on the act on the solution right away.
Ari Galper - Trust-Based Selling (06:54):
That's what you do. As an expert
Govindh Jayaraman (06:56):
I'm perfect for them
Ari Galper - Trust-Based Selling (06:58):
Perfect, but in this model you are not to size them up and attempt to provide an answer at all. Stay, present, stay calm.
and then what you do is you listen carefully and you crystallize their core issue. And you say, from what I'm hearing from you, Govin, your main core issue is X. Is that right? They go exactly.
(07:20):
Next question down the iceberg. How long
have you been concerned about this? For
what have you done so far on your own
to attempt to resolve this by yourself.
Okay, then the middle layer is called coi cost of an action.
(07:40):
It's reverse engineering. The problem you've got to help them see the impact of not solving it.
Help them build a business case for why, it's yeah. Go ahead.
Govindh Jayaraman (07:50):
Yeah. So the question is essentially like, what is.
do you have an idea what this is costing you to continue in this way?
Ari Galper - Trust-Based Selling (07:59):
Beautiful. The language you can use for that is, are phrases like this.
Have you thought about
Govindh Jayaraman (08:04):
Have you considered
Ari Galper - Trust-Based Selling (08:06):
Are you aware of the impact your team right now by not having this in place? Have you calculated the cost of those people you lost last month. How is it affecting you at home? You've got to help them dimensionalize the problem. Otherwise they don't see how serious it is. If they don't own the problem. They sure as Heck aren't going to pay you to fix it
Govindh Jayaraman (08:23):
Now, look, you're coming to this Ari, with a lot of expertise and passion. I can see the energy
and and was this always natural to you. Is this the way that you always did it is this, I mean, you have a you have a lifetime in sales.
Was this the way that you started selling right away
Ari Galper - Trust-Based Selling (08:42):
Now, this is 25 years in development.
I've been building this for 25 years. I just figured this out with this kind of clarity and advanced thinking. Only 4 or 5 years ago. I've been toiling away at this for a long time. If you look me up online, you'll see, I've been doing this for 2 decades, and I finally cracked the code on the ultimate one call sale process, which is trust oriented. That gets a commitment to a next step. After the 1st meeting
Govindh Jayaraman (09:06):
So why did you crack the code? Why was this a code that you needed to crack
Ari Galper - Trust-Based Selling (09:10):
Great question. This comes from my original story. That happened to me a shift that happened to me years ago. I mentioned the story at the event where I was on a live sales call with a new opportunity. I worked for a tech company back then, and I'll never forget this. The group I was talking to on this conference call
gave me all the signals they wanted to buy from me. They told me everything I wanted to hear we love. It sounds great. You might recall the story at the end of the meeting, they said, look, we'll follow up with this. Follow up with us. We'll move this thing forward, I said myself. Perfect sales call, and I reached for the phone by accident. Hit the mute button instead of the off button. A click happened. They stopped talking. They started talking amongst themselves. What I heard was the complete opposite. It wasn't the truth, they said. We're not going to go with him, keep using him.
(09:52):
And I realized at that moment there is a this is a dysfunctional process going on here where they aren't comfortable, telling me the truth.
They lied to me, and I said to myself, I'm going to make it my lifetime career to figure out how to untangle the sales conversation, so it no longer ends up in a game that one's playing, and no one gets the truth behind it.
Govindh Jayaraman (10:13):
Yeah. And and I think that what's power, what? What?
What I love about that story
is the solution. You made the solution. You sort of like carved out of stone really
is about trust and telling the truth. It isn't about
like you're not setting up for a lie right when you come up at the beginning.
(10:37):
really, actually interested in their problem and digging down into it.
You're you're not setting yourself up as a trusted advisor. You're actually being one
Ari Galper - Trust-Based Selling (10:50):
You're right, demonstrating. Live that you are not like what they expect you to be
Govindh Jayaraman (10:56):
Right.
Ari Galper - Trust-Based Selling (10:57):
And you're right. The whole premise of this
is about not selling at all. Not focusing on the sale. I mentioned that the talk at Ucla, I said, throw away your sales books and never attend any sales training class ever again. Selling is the problem. Stop selling. Learn a new skill, which is how to create trust with people I don't mean you're not trustworthy, I mean, like you said, convey and prove that you don't have a hidden agenda
Govindh Jayaraman (11:25):
Right by putting it all out there and and by being clear. And you know you're you're you're exaggerating the physical cue about sitting back and covering your mouth.
But but it's it's necessary in this world, because, like the sales process is so documented, so and and so formulaic out there, right, and everybody's talking about funnels and funnels and funnels that nobody's funnels work. None of these funnels work
Ari Galper - Trust-Based Selling (11:52):
Look, funnels have been commoditized
Govindh Jayaraman (11:54):
Right.
Ari Galper - Trust-Based Selling (11:55):
Nobody wants to go through multiple steps to get their answers solved. All they want. Let me tell you what this comes down to.
If you really simplify this to the ultimate goal, all you want them is to feel comfortable. Saying these words to you.
I'm in. Let's do this
right. Why does it take multiple steps and meetings and months to get to that moment of? I'm in. Let's do this. Why? Because your process does not have trust in it for them to say those words. The process is broken
Govindh Jayaraman (12:24):
Right.
And I think this is what's really neat about the next one. So step one, doctor, patient mindset. It's a mindset thing. Put yourself in the place of expertise. First, st then go down the iceberg, ask the questions beyond it, make sure that you're aligned with them on what it costs not to solve the problem. What it costs.
(12:47):
Truly, what is it costing them now? And you talk about that as being reverse engineering? And that takes us to step 3 further down your napkin, which is, show your roadmap. This is not a funnel, this is a roadmap. This is a process, and I love this piece.
Tell, tell us what that means. What does it mean by showing your roadmap
Ari Galper - Trust-Based Selling (13:06):
Well, it's like that napkin you've got that. It shows the steps. It's a linear step-by-step process that's a roadmap, I call it, and your goal at the bottom of the iceberg is to ask this question, to move them to the next stage, which is, is this a priority for you
to address once and for all, and I say, yes, it is. You say this. May I walk you through my process and roadmap for how you work from here. Guy goes. Sure, because you've given them 0 so far about you. Just the problem. Only so up comes a visual pathway that you show them not your services, not your fees, but a Meta step, a mental framework and model that can see for how you think and what your process is. Now. Most experts already have a process, but the problem is they verbalize it.
(13:48):
Oh, next step is this, we have a meeting. We do the discovery session, and they're like
in out this ear out the other ear. They cannot process what you're saying audibly, but when you show it to them visually in a simple napkin like step-by-step process. They see it, they believe it, they hear it
does not compute, they get scared by it. What they say is, I want to think about it.
Govindh Jayaraman (14:10):
And and this is the critical part. And and this is sort of like this almost helps you with step one too.
documenting and being able to build a simple roadmap by which you take the steps, not the solution, right? This is a very critical thing. The steps, not the solution and diagram that from somebody from this point forward. Right? That's that helps to build your expertise. If you can do that, if you can express
(14:40):
your process simply. Well, then, you can invite somebody to join you on that on that trek right
Ari Galper - Trust-Based Selling (14:46):
You said a key word right there. Simplicity. What I realized is, I discovered we're now in the age of commodization. Okay, complexity equals distrust, simplicity equals trust. If you simplify your process. So it's so pedestrian level, it's so simple for the average person, and they can see what your process is to fix the problem, and you say to them, What are your thoughts on the roadmap, John
Govindh Jayaraman (15:11):
Right.
Ari Galper - Trust-Based Selling (15:12):
Guy goes makes sense.
You're 90%. There.
Govindh Jayaraman (15:17):
Selling them anything. You're just selling them. You're conveying a process
Ari Galper - Trust-Based Selling (15:21):
There's no solution. It's just the process to get to the answer.
Govindh Jayaraman (15:25):
Right, right.
Ari Galper - Trust-Based Selling (15:28):
That's all they want. They want to see structure that gives them peace of mind.
Govindh Jayaraman (15:33):
Yeah. And and I think that you said something about how the roadmap has to be
one slide. It has to be a 1 pager. It can't be a multi-pager. It can't be a prize inside. It can't be a kinder egg, which you just keep on opening up, and it's another one, and it's another one, and it's another one. It's got to be evident, right? It's got to be clear
Ari Galper - Trust-Based Selling (15:54):
You know what's funny? I asked my new clients to come on board with our team, and I asked them, show me your process that you have right now that you show clients. Oh, my! It looks like the freeway, the La Highway. It's got circles and arrows and symbols and Logos I'm like.
are you kidding me?
This makes no sense to me, but it makes sense to me. Well, that's the problem. Who cares about you? It's about them, and I got to rework the whole thing and make it easy for them
Govindh Jayaraman (16:19):
Right? Right? So you show them your roadmap, and then
you go to onboard. The new client! There's no sale there, right? What are you talking about as being the
Ari Galper - Trust-Based Selling (16:30):
No, it's not a signed contract. What it is is a commitment
could be paid for, sure to engage with you and schedule the next step in your process.
So let's just say, Gove, and you're a consultant, and your next step would be a. This diagnostic needs assessment or a discovery session.
because the 1st meeting is not discovery. The 1st version is, in fact, finding goals. None of that's what we just talked about. The next session is discovery. You can charge a fee for your discovery process the analysis behind that and the plan behind that 3 bubbles. So you might say this, the guy says, do you make sense
Govindh Jayaraman (17:10):
And you say
Ari Galper - Trust-Based Selling (17:11):
Where would you like to go from here?
Notice the space I'm creating?
They step into it. Then you say they say, Well, how do you work of it? You say it's real simple, real, simple. From here we schedule a time right now to have you come back and start with phase one in our process. It's a nominal one time fee of 5 K. That's it. To have us work with you through phase 1, 2, and 3 to flesh out your situation and get a priority list together, and a plan to go with from there, you say, how does that sound to you? And they go sounds good
Govindh Jayaraman (17:41):
That's right, that's great.
Ari Galper - Trust-Based Selling (17:44):
0 selling.
Govindh Jayaraman (17:46):
Yeah, 0 submit. And one of the one of the things that I I look, I I
I think that I'm frustrated by in the past when I'm
when I'm engaging with a client. They they don't.
They don't want to take that next step now.
and I have to follow up. So I am in the follow-up loop, and I'm chasing them and chasing them and chasing them, and I get ghosted, and and I think I've been there, and I think everybody's been there.
(18:14):
How does your process deal with that kind of a thing?
Ari Galper - Trust-Based Selling (18:17):
Well, the 2 tips here.
let's say you're now in chasing mode. You haven't learned my stuff yet. You're still stuck in the old world and chasing normal for you. Okay, let me give you everyone your tip right now to help everybody. I'm gonna ask all your listeners to never again or viewers to ever, never again, as of today, use the word follow up ever again the rest of their life.
The word follow-up is a sales word.
(18:39):
right. When you call somebody I'm calling to follow up. What does that tell them you're moving them towards a sale. Their guard goes up. You're a salesperson, not an expert. Here's what you say. Instead, I'm giving you a call, or in your email to see if you have any
feedback on our previous conversation, any feedback on our last meeting, any feedback on a proposal, you have to go backwards, away from the sale, not towards it. The word feedback elicits the truth.
(19:05):
and they engaged you. That's the way to bring your ghost out of the closet back on your calendar again. Now, if you, if you master the one call sale process.
You'll never be ghosted ever again. Because here's why the reason why you're ghosted, because somewhere along the way, in your 1st meeting what you did was unconsciously you educated them, gave them information which now forced them to do. What think about it?
Govindh Jayaraman (19:29):
Right.
Ari Galper - Trust-Based Selling (19:31):
And when you, when they think about, here's the thing. People's minds are so fragmented right now with the world going on right now, if you input new information in that 1st meeting, they got to go, think about it, and they go to Black Hole and you're dead. It's over.
That's why I'm encouraging anyone listening to this. Understand the process. You'll learn it to remove all the elements out of this thing. So there's nothing to think about. Only question they have is, do they want to solve the problem or not? Yes or no, not to hire you? That's not the decision to make
Govindh Jayaraman (19:58):
So
let's let's pretend for a second. Let's go through the process, and let's just push back against it a little bit. Let's say I'm talking to
somebody, and they're part of a team. They have 10 people as part of their team, and as they go down the iceberg they start telling me about the team. And you know there's 8 or 9 people, and that they, you know, one of the problems that they have is making decisions are so hard, because, you know, they've got this complicated decision-making process, and we can never get anything done, and and so on and so forth.
(20:29):
How do you handle that information when you get it as you go down the iceberg, because that's that's where it would come up right. If you do this right. One of the problems they may have is implementing change because there's no clear decision maker. How how do you handle that?
Ari Galper - Trust-Based Selling (20:44):
You're saying that they're not the decision maker or the other decision maker. Besides that.
Govindh Jayaraman (20:46):
There are other decision makers in addition to them.
Ari Galper - Trust-Based Selling (20:49):
No problem that'll happen in a very complex environment, a corporate environment, for sure. That's fine. You don't change your process just because of that you still go down the iceberg social the roadmap. And they're gonna say to you, what's the next step? You're gonna probably say to you? I've got Mike, my Cfo and my CEO is gonna be involved with this as well. You see, no problem is what you say. Let's schedule a time
(21:13):
for all of us if you'd be open to it to get together, and I'll walk them through this process like I did with you and answer questions for them. But there'll be 0 presentation and 0 selling only diagnostically of their issues. How's that sound to you, Mike? They got to trust you to bring you inside their inner circle. If you're selling to them, they ain't going to bring you in because you're a vendor. When this process is created, they shepherd you inside because they can see, because here's the thing they're judging you.
(21:41):
not any information. They're judging you on your approach.
They're buying your
Govindh Jayaraman (21:47):
No, hold on. Don't let that go away, because I think that's a really important piece.
I think that you're absolutely right. I think that most of the time when I'm assessing people calling me. And we like you, we get called all the time right? We're always dealing with these calls. We're always dealing with these emails.
And I think that we're assessing their approach
(22:10):
and wondering whether or not that approach is right for us. Not whether or not the solution. I mean, there's a billion solutions.
But is the approach something that I can trust?
Why didn't?
That's the powerful question.
And I think that what you're suggesting is that it's really sort of like a deprogramming that we have to go through because we
(22:34):
we're the problem we keep on jumping to this.
I'll solve your problems and just let me do it. I'll come in and take over.
But that's not what people want
Ari Galper - Trust-Based Selling (22:46):
We have been programmed brainwashed. I'll use that word to
from the old what I call no like and trust model
where your job is to get to know someone they got to like. You got to educate them. And over time they trust you. The problem with that model is, there's no time anymore. So after the 1st meeting they're gone, they've ghosted you. So you have to remove the no process and the like process, and only folks in the trust process
(23:12):
to realize that they are hiring you now because you're commoditized. They're deciding on you by only what they can see and what they can hear if anything that you present or you say to them connects you to the notion of
flexing or selling. It's over at Hello.
Govindh Jayaraman (23:30):
Right.
Ari Galper - Trust-Based Selling (23:31):
But they won't tell you this because they'll be nice to you. But in the back of their mind they're going. This doesn't feel right
Govindh Jayaraman (23:37):
So, Ari, I don't have 25 years like you did this. It took you 25 years to decode this and reprogram yourself, and and you know I loved your story when I heard it the 1st time.
But when we don't have 25 years to come by this honestly, and you came by this honestly right. I fundamentally believe that we're our best when we give to the world what we needed ourselves. And you needed this.
(24:05):
And you solved this. So someone listening.
where do they start? What's the 1st step
Ari Galper - Trust-Based Selling (24:13):
Honestly, if this resonates with people, and it makes sense to them, I would start by reading one of my books
And learning how to do it, because in that book that I have, it's my new one just came out called Trust a split second, they can order my book, and we can offer the link if you want now or later, whatever, and they can learn, order the book, schedule a chat with me or one of my folks on my team and go through the process and learn how we teach you to do what we're trying to teach you right. If you don't live it, live, order our book, learn it, and have a chat with someone on my team. Then you won't believe it's true. You won't believe it's even possible
Govindh Jayaraman (24:51):
Right. So what about
what's a small thing that they can try? What's it like? A what's a taster size version of
to try right? That
Ari Galper - Trust-Based Selling (24:59):
First, st
Govindh Jayaraman (25:00):
I believe that everybody can do something to get familiar with this while they're waiting for the book to arrive.
1st thing is
Ari Galper - Trust-Based Selling (25:09):
Shut up!
Govindh Jayaraman (25:12):
Sounds, easy
Ari Galper - Trust-Based Selling (25:13):
Stop talking.
This sounds. It sounds so crazy what I just said. What
but if I listen to recordings right now of most of your listeners doing a sales call or having a meeting with someone. I'd probably hear 80, 20, them talking 20%. We can't help ourselves because we feel we have to engage people. So 1st thing is stop
(25:35):
talking, stop selling
instead, identify and unpack. I call like a tree exercise where you have a little trunk of a tree. Write down the core problem in that trunk, that is, that you helped your client solve and then have some branches come off the back of that. That is their subproblems. Okay, have that visual in your mind.
So when they get you and you say to them, What are your challenges right now. And they tell you that trunk problem or a tree problem. Then you know where to take it from. There, start with that piece in your mind. So you're problem centric. That'll begin the shift
Govindh Jayaraman (26:08):
Yeah. And so so the the 1st step really does sound like.
build your roadmap. Understand what that looks like? Right? Do your trunk problem where you really understand your process, and if you don't do that.
and I think if you do that, then the next part of that is going down the iceberg. Those questions become very logical because you have to adopt this curious mindset
(26:36):
and curious mindset is you're not right for everybody. That's okay. You're not going to solve everybody's problem. That's okay.
Right? So get curious about whether or not actually, they have the problem. And maybe, you know, do they value the fact that they have the problem, because that if they don't value it, if they say, Yeah, you know what? I don't think this is costing us anything it's a nice to have. It's not a good to have great.
(27:00):
See you later.
Ari Galper - Trust-Based Selling (27:01):
Right. You have to become a heat-seeking missile looking for the problem.
Now you'll find the problem. But here's the flip. If you don't have them own it and admit to you there's an impact to this. And if you don't ask this question, is this a priority for you? And they say yes, it is. Then you got nothing on your hands. You got air. Let them go
Govindh Jayaraman (27:24):
Yeah, and and that that's
hard for some people to do right. Like, I think that's that's really the problem. The problem is that we're not curious enough
about what's behind the problem and what our client, or what our would be client.
actually values the solution as
Ari Galper - Trust-Based Selling (27:44):
This goes back to what you said earlier. The goal is the truth, not the sale. If you can't go down the iceberg deep enough to get the truth of where everything sits.
You're playing a game of the top, and you're the ball, not the bat.
Govindh Jayaraman (27:57):
Yeah, so what? So you you had that sales that fateful sales call all those years ago where you pressed mute.
you know, and and what a gift it was for you that you were able to press mute, and you got to hear that
what's changed for you in your process since then? Like, how? How? What?
Ari Galper - Trust-Based Selling (28:16):
But how should
Govindh Jayaraman (28:17):
How's your world changed?
Ari Galper - Trust-Based Selling (28:18):
Thank you for asking that. What's shifted is that we don't chase anybody.
We have no follow-up emails, no proposals.
We don't even have any contracts anymore. So I realized that the person, the reason for agreements
is because of a lack of trust between 2 parties
Govindh Jayaraman (28:38):
Right.
Ari Galper - Trust-Based Selling (28:39):
We have verbal conversations with people. They agree, and we eliminated all the resistance constraints that anybody else is doing. And now we have endless flow of opportunity coming in because we removed the funnel process
and giving people what they want, which is
an appointment with the with the specialist, the surgeon that solves their problem, not someone trying to sell them. Not. Let's put it this way, being the doctor, not the pharmacist.
Govindh Jayaraman (29:06):
Right, right?
And and you know, here's what I think is really profound about what you just said. Because I think somewhere out there, someone's listening to this and going. Oh, my gosh! They don't even have a contracts. How do they get paid? How do they know they're going to get paid, what happens if they don't get paid? And what would you say to them? And I have a sense of what you might say? But what do you say to them?
Ari Galper - Trust-Based Selling (29:27):
Wow!
Almost everyone pays.
Govindh Jayaraman (29:30):
If they don't pay, we fire them right, because there was no trust
Ari Galper - Trust-Based Selling (29:35):
We don't accept behavior
that is, below our standards of integrity. If we notice any behavior of clients that feels dysfunctional or narcissistic or controlling or attempting to hijack the agenda.
We push a button called the Fire Button. You're you're out of there, I said. Get rid of them. I don't want anyone in our world or ecosystem
(29:58):
who does not respect and treat us like the doctors that we are
Govindh Jayaraman (30:01):
That's amazing. That's amazing. So that's what's changed for you. Right? People come to you for expertise. People come to you for the roadmap.
People.
People come to you because they know that you're going to help them build this together.
Ari Galper - Trust-Based Selling (30:15):
And they know they can trust. We're not going to use any sales, techniques, or behavior
Govindh Jayaraman (30:22):
Right. It's going to be their choice.
Ari Galper - Trust-Based Selling (30:24):
That they hate. They're going to want to make the decision themselves. We are not going to convince them
or persuade them in any way possible. They have to own it and ask us for help. Otherwise we're not going to work with them
Govindh Jayaraman (30:36):
Yeah, you know, one of the things that I really got from
this conversation is, you know, the sales funnel people think it's easy, right. You just throw things in the top of the funnel and it flows out the bottom.
But there's resistance all the way through that right. That's what the funnel does. The funnel creates resistance. The model creates resistance and
(30:57):
spoiler alert.
Who's pushing people through that funnel? It's you right. We're we're the force in the equation. We're adding all. We're the force against that friction
in your model.
It's there's there's less friction, less force. There is a simple acknowledgement based on trust and respect, and
(31:19):
it's gotta be lighter right? I mean, there's got to be a lot less frustrating days, mind boggling days of just banging your head against the wall, sending out 500 follow-up emails and not ever getting a response
Ari Galper - Trust-Based Selling (31:31):
There is no friction at all, because we don't use a funnel model. We use a cylinder model where you don't play the numbers game and put a lot at the top and spend all your time qualifying people and wasting your time. We use a cylinder concept where you only target your ideal clients and your trust models trust from Hello! And they just flow right on board. There is no friction at all.
Govindh Jayaraman (31:51):
Yeah. And that's the other part of this right.
Doctors don't treat everybody.
There's a specific doctor for certain things right? And and so, knowing your specialty helps you target your key clients right? Your your avatar is well known to you when you know what your specialty is, and that's the last piece of this ingredient. So when you reverse engineer this whole thing.
(32:15):
it's really about knowing who you serve.
understanding what matters, asking key questions and getting genuinely curious about it, working down that trunk, and then finally, having a process that you can articulate clearly that will
lead them to the solution, but not give it to them.
(32:36):
Is that right
Ari Galper - Trust-Based Selling (32:38):
Beautifully said
Govindh Jayaraman (32:39):
That's awesome. Ari. Thank you for joining me
Ari Galper - Trust-Based Selling (32:42):
No problem. Anybody wants my book. They go to the trustbook.com. They start
Govindh Jayaraman (32:46):
Yeah, we'll have all the links to the stuff that Ari's talked about is going to be in the show notes so definitely check that out. Actually, Ari, sorry I jumped too far. One of the things we've been doing in honor of John Ruland. John Ruland was a great fan of the show. In the early days he was on the Podcast he gave us a great gift. It's what you appreciate appreciates, was his paper napkin.
(33:07):
John suddenly passed away recently and in honor of John. We've been asking every guest this season to shout out an appreciation or a gratitude to somebody or something.
Who would you like to shout out today
Ari Galper - Trust-Based Selling (33:22):
I'd say my grandmother.
She was 101 years old when she passed away recently.
She was an entrepreneur, a business person like us, and I used to visit her quite a bit, had some diary with some notes I used to always leave with her, and she left this one statement and let him forget it, and it applies very much now.
she said. Successful people are made in good times and in bad times, which means the Times have nothing to do with it.
(33:48):
It has to do with your willingness to let go of what you're holding on to your old construct, and evolve, and be willing to fall on your sword and keep learning
Govindh Jayaraman (33:55):
That sounds like some great grandma wisdom. Thank you.
Ari Galper - Trust-Based Selling (34:00):
Sounds good
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