In Episode 254 of Paper Napkin Wisdom, Govindh Jayaraman sits down with Rick Williams — board director, leadership coach, and author of Create the Future: For Your Company and Yourself. A man of strategic clarity and quiet conviction, Rick shares a deceptively simple yet profoundly powerful message: "Give Before Asking."
This phrase, written on a paper napkin, becomes the cornerstone of a conversation rich with wisdom about leadership, generosity, trust, and how real influence is built — not demanded.
Rick’s career spans decades of advising leaders through business transitions, boardroom dynamics, and personal evolution. As a frequent contributor to publications like the Harvard Business Review and CEOWorld, and someone who’s helped countless CEOs navigate defining moments, Rick knows what separates good leaders from great ones. Spoiler: it’s not charisma or vision — it’s how you show up for others first.
Leading with Contribution, Not Control
In the episode, Rick explains the deeper meaning behind “Give Before Asking.” It’s not about martyrdom or passive generosity. It’s a conscious leadership strategy.
“If we start with the idea of giving before asking,” Rick says, “we’ll have a much more successful and satisfying life — and better leadership outcomes too.”
Rick emphasizes that influence and trust don’t come from position. They come from investing in others first — offering support, insight, or even just attention before expecting it in return. “Give” might mean listening deeply. It might mean sharing your network. It might mean extending empathy or credit.
A Pattern in Effective Leaders
This concept isn't just a personal belief. Rick has observed it across hundreds of boardrooms and coaching relationships. The most respected leaders — the ones others rally behind — almost always operate from this principle.
“They contribute to the team and to the organization before they expect the team or organization to support them,” Rick shares. “It’s a shift in posture — away from ‘what can I get?’ and toward ‘what can I build here?’”
And in that shift, everything changes: team cohesion, clarity of mission, even performance metrics.
What Happens When You Don’t?
Rick and Govindh also talk about what happens when leaders don’t lead this way — when leaders “ask” first: for loyalty, for effort, for results — without giving vision, trust, or recognition.
The result? Disengagement. Resentment. Turnover.
“You have to set the tone,” Rick explains. “People model behavior. If you show generosity, they give it back. If you only demand, you get compliance — not commitment.”
This Isn’t Just for CEOs
What makes Rick’s message especially resonant is its universality. You
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Govindh Jayaraman (00:02):
Rick Williams. Welcome to paper napkin wisdom. I'm excited to have you here today.
Rick Williams (00:07):
Thank you. It's great to be here.
Govindh Jayaraman (00:09):
So you shared a very interesting napkin with me, and I'm looking forward to dig again. It says, Give before asking.
why did you share that with me?
Rick Williams (00:21):
Well, I you put a challenge question to me of what
I I don't know. Wisdom. I don't know if we even call it wisdom or insight or simple statement.
And as I thought about it in the context of a lot of writing, I've been doing about leadership and leadership effectiveness.
(00:42):
I thought of the idea of give before asking.
as a simple way of summing up what I think is a fundamental principle
of leadership, and certainly of life in general. I think
how we deal with others. If we start with the idea of giving before asking
(01:05):
that, we'll have a much more successful, impactful
life, and certainly I think you'll be a better leader if you do that.
Govindh Jayaraman (01:14):
So what do you mean, though, by give before asking, What is that? You know? What was the genesis of this idea for you.
Rick Williams (01:23):
Well, I you know all of us. And as I said, I do a lot of writing about how to be a more impactful leader. So my sort of starting orientation is is there. But I think the principles apply more generally as well. So the idea is that we usually are mostly focused on whether we like it or not, are mostly focused on ourselves. Well, what do we want? What do we need?
(01:51):
Gee, I want you to do something to help me.
and if you're on the other side of it, and I come to you and say.
Gee, I want you to to promote my new book, or something like that.
you know, you might say, Well, okay, maybe I will. Maybe I won't. But what you're really asking is, well, why? Why should I do that? And that's the natural reaction that we all have.
(02:21):
because when somebody comes and says, Well, gee! I want you to join my company, or I want you to buy my product, or I want you to be my friend. Whatever it is.
we we are instinctively, whether we think about it explicitly or not, we're sort of saying.
Okay, I hear you saying that. But why? What kind of what's in it for me?
(02:43):
And it's it's in truth is really not a selfish question. That's that is, you know, that's how we that that's just sort of natural for human interaction.
And if if you understand that. That's how we interact with the people and put yourself on the other side and say, Okay, I want you. I want my customers to buy my new widget, or my new service, my consulting service, or something else.
(03:13):
instead of just saying to them, Well, gee! I have a new! I have a new widget, and I want you to buy it.
That is not the right place to start. You're better off by starting by saying I'm going to give you something.
If I'm going to give you the value of my new
washing machine, or my new consulting service, or my new friendship, or whatever it is, start by giving what? What is the value that that you are offering to somebody? Give them an offering of value.
(03:50):
and then, once they feel there's value in what you are offering giving. Then there's a basis for conversation about what you're asking of them. You may be asking of them to buy something. I think this goes way beyond that sort of simple notion of a transaction. But that's the basic idea. The basic idea is, start
(04:13):
start by giving.
Don't start by asking.
Govindh Jayaraman (04:19):
Yeah. And you know, I think inherent with the way that you approached that Rick was.
You know you.
It's not giving something. That's willy-nilly, right? You're not giving away willy-nilly. You're giving something of value. You've said this a few times, so, in order to give something of value, you have to approach that conversation with curiosity. Right? Like, what is the other person value? That's isn't that a center? Isn't that sort of like the central part of this that sort of like sort of hidden. The prize inside is a little bit of hey? We need to know what the other person might be interested in.
Rick Williams (04:56):
Absolutely so you are, I mean, just think of any
any interaction with your 1st meeting somebody.
if the first, st if the 1st thing you're saying when you meet somebody is, I'm Rick Williams. I think I'm an important person. I have a new book that you should buy.
That person is completely turned off
(05:18):
instantly by your talking about yourself, and who you are and what you need. And blah blah!
If you meet a new person, if I need a new person. The 1st thing I should be doing is this finding about who they are?
Discover? Ask, ask what their name is.
Ask why? You know. Why did they come to this event?
(05:40):
You know. What do they do? Learn something about them, and find a way of making a connection with them before talking about yourself and what you want for yourself.
That is a form of giving you're you're giving acknowledgement that that person is somebody that you're really paying attention to in this moment. You're giving an acknowledgement that that person is worth your time. You're giving an acknowledgement that you're interested in who they are.
(06:07):
That is, that is a form of giving which in truth doesn't cost you anything, but it is extremely valuable to the other person.
and that that giving posture is the way to start any new relationship conversation, whether it's, you know, with somebody you'd like to, you know, meet and go out on a date with, or somebody you are meeting, who you hope will be a new customer, or somebody who you hope will be a new employee. It's the same principle in every single new relationship.
Govindh Jayaraman (06:42):
You know, one of the things that I think is really powerful when you said it is is, there's there's almost like a hidden word in this napkin right? Like, give attention before asking for attention.
It's it, and that's where it starts and and isn't there, you know, in
inherent with that, I think, is leaders need to be confident and curious. Right? Don't, don't you? Isn't that where it starts, the the energy of giving attention comes from a fact that
(07:12):
you're secure with who you are, so I can give somebody attention. You don't need to fill the air with yourself. You don't have to fill the room with yourself, because you don't need that. You could give attention.
Rick Williams (07:24):
Right. Exactly right. Now. That's a very, very good point, is it's what you're saying is.
don't make it just about yourself.
Give of yourself to the others that they are important.
that they're they're important to you.
If I'm if I'm meeting somebody, I want that person to feel that they are important to me, at least in this moment, in time, that who they are and they're worth my time.
(07:54):
and that that is the way that we then take down all these barriers to connecting with each other.
Govindh Jayaraman (08:04):
And there's no hook to that right? I mean, there's no you can't fake that, can you? You have to actually
be interested. You have to actually give them attention. You actually have to pay attention, because people know when you're not, don't they.
Rick Williams (08:21):
Oh, absolutely no! And I don't mean this in an in an in.
you know, disingenuous way, I'm I think this is serious. I
I mean, i 1 of the things about, if I may kind of broaden this to the principles of leadership
is that you know leader leadership depends on trust and
(08:48):
trust is built on people feeling that they can be open with each other and understand who each other are.
I may have the grammar wrong on that. But whatever I I leadership is is built on trust
and trust starts by giving.
(09:10):
If if I don't trust you enough to give you something of myself.
Then don't expect people to trust you.
I cannot expect you to trust me unless I'm willing to be open and and vulnerable enough to trust you that that's the fundamental starting point of leadership.
(09:30):
So when I say I say, I want you to. I want my leadership team to follow me in a new direction, or, you know, a change direction. For where we, as a you know, a nonprofit or the football team or the company, are going.
I have to build trust with the team members. And the way I build trust with the team members is to say to them, Okay, I trust A, I want to know who you are and how you're going to contribute to this. I trust you enough to tell you what I'm really thinking here. I trust you
(10:13):
enough to want to understand your views about what we're trying to do, and I am going to share with you my vision of success that I'm hoping we can all share together.
That sharing of a vision of success
is part of the process of building trust and that giving of a vision of success
(10:37):
where we're going to go if we all work together is part of the giving process. So that's why that's why giving is is a unifying idea for all of this.
You can't just say I'm the boss. Follow me
and expect that people are going. I mean, yeah, I mean, some people are going to? All right. Yeah, he is the boss. Okay, we'll go along. But if you want real people to really be engaged with making the enterprise successful.
(11:08):
just saying you're the boss, and do what I tell you to do is not the way to make it happen.
Govindh Jayaraman (11:14):
Yeah.
you know one of the things that I'm I'm you know. So the 1st time I said, Hey, you know, there's this silent word give attention before asking for it. But then the next iteration. The next example was, trust. You're really talking about giving trust before asking for trust, giving vision before asking for buy-in. It's it's it's, I think, that this is, you know, the the blank slide or the blank line insert word here
(11:45):
was intentionally left out of the napkin, because it really relates to everything. If you want trust, you must give it before asking for it. If you want attention, you must give it before asking for it. If you want people to participate in your vision before asking them to join you on the journey, you have to give it to them, and trust that to them right.
Rick Williams (12:04):
Right.
Govindh Jayaraman (12:05):
So so is is, that is, was that what you meant by by constructing this wisdom is this, is this, what you're really talking about is in every action.
Give what it is that you're looking for before you can ask for it.
Rick Williams (12:21):
Yes, that's why that's why, when we we had our conversation about this napkin
it happened at a moment when I was doing a lot of thinking about
what are the core principles of leadership.
And as I thought about it
(12:41):
I mean, I hadn't really said it this way before. But that's why I'm giving you a compliment that you got me to write this down in 3 simple words, a principle that I think is fundamental to
to successful leadership.
It's also fundamental to, I think, to every relationship that one has in life. But but certainly it's fundamental to leadership, because.
(13:11):
you know, I mean, I'm not telling you anything you don't already know, but often
the boss or the leader thinks that all they have to do is just tell people what to do.
And yeah, I mean, in limited circumstances. And you get small.
(13:32):
you know, a small company or office, or somebody like that, where it's all right, you know, we're all getting a paycheck, and you know we'll do whatever the boss wants. And blah, blah, okay, I mean, you can kind of go along that way. But it's certainly not. It's not the way you want to operate if you want to be really successful in anything.
(13:53):
And so this. What what you did is get me to crystallize this idea in 3 simple words, and it is an idea that I think is fundamental to any successful
to to a leader being successful of any organization of any consequence.
Govindh Jayaraman (14:14):
Yeah. And I, really, I really think it's.
I think it's really scalably applicable to a lot of different environments.
If if especially, you know. So really
a lot of things. You know. There are several pre-steps to this before a leader can engage in this way.
(14:34):
I think the leader has to be aware of
their mindset, you know. Where are they? What are they there to do? And if you're there for trust building, well, then, you have to give the trust before asking for it. If you're there for attention so that people can be focused, you have to give them your focus before you get it. And there's a core philosophy I have around leadership, that is, you need to connect with people before you can challenge them.
(15:02):
You need to connect with them before you, you can move forward by giving. Don't you open the door for connection? Right? Like genuine human connection, comes by giving that generosity of our hearts and heads.
Rick Williams (15:16):
Right, absolutely. I you know I
again. We're not here to talk about.
Talk about my new book, but I I will. I'm going to draw something from
from create the future in that. What I'm advising
leaders to do when they're faced with making an important decision
(15:39):
is to step back and not just oh, here's a decision I have to make about whether how we're going to introduce this product or buy this company, or sell out, or whatever what the heck we're going to do.
I say, step back.
take time to make sure you're really doing this right. And what I'm advising people to do is to draw in a small group of key advisors to help you make the decision. It's not that they're going to vote on what you should do
(16:10):
but ask them, present them with what the challenges that you or the company is facing
and get their inputs on it, their different perspectives and core to that, and get their thoughts on what you should be doing or can be doing. What are the real options you have, and the core to that is making it clear that you are open to hearing their points of view, you know, so often, you know the boss, and I'm just using it as a cliche term here, will, you know, pull, pull a group of
(16:46):
you know, senior leaders or team members, or whatever it is together, and say, here's what we're going to do. And you know, you know, blah blah, just go off and do it. I'm saying.
Okay, that is appropriate. Sometimes, when some decision has already been made. But if you're faced with a really challenging decision, bring those same people together and say, you know, I have some thoughts about this, but here's what we're really dealing with, and I want to get your
(17:15):
your views on this share, your experiences of being in similar situations.
And I want to. I'm going to and
find ways to take down the barriers to people opening, being open and talking about what their real thoughts are, their experiences, even saying that you know my, the leader's understanding of what's going on may be completely wrong.
(17:41):
and this has to do with building trust in that kind of an environment to say, to say.
I am giving you. I I am giving you a permission in the language we're talking about.
I'm giving you permission to share. Share your thinking on this, even the thinking that I might be wrong.
(18:02):
I am encouraging you to be creative.
to take down the barriers. I want to hear crazy ideas, even ideas that are completely silly
at 1st blush.
because those ideas may get all of us thinking about other ideas that really aren't crazy that we never would have thought about before. So what what you have to do as the leader is to
(18:27):
is to give give of yourself, saying I I might be wrong
in the end. I will make the decisions I have to make, but I want you to feel open to talking about sharing your own real experiences, your own thinking
put crazy ideas on the table.
(18:49):
Tell us, really, tell us what you're you tell us the
times that have. Have you dealt with an issue like this before that's relevant to this that we may never I've never even heard of before, anyway. So that is
that whole process, for how to make important decisions rests on building trust, and trust
(19:12):
comes from being willing to give something of yourself I talk about in terms of being leaders, leaders must be both decisive and vulnerable.
Vulnerable means. That means that you're willing to say I might be wrong, leader. Vulnerability means that
(19:32):
you're willing to say, I might not really understand all the issues here, or understand the dynamics of why our marketplace is changing in ways that we hadn't anticipated.
That that's what vulnerability is. And vulnerability is is another way of
(19:52):
building, I mean is a way, an important way of building trust in that. You're giving yourself to the other people to to see you see you as a human being who might
a might be wrong and is open to hearing other points of view those. Those are the core requirements for
(20:14):
making making difficult decisions. And I think that giving is part of is a core part of that I know.
Govindh Jayaraman (20:23):
I think another way of saying that using your napkin as a lever is, give an open mind before asking for an open mind, give an open heart before you ask for an open heart. And I think that that's really what you're saying when you're saying you're talking about being open to being wrong and open to learning, open to adjustment, open to all of those kinds of things.
(20:47):
You have to demonstrate that in action I used to always.
I don't believe you can hold anybody accountable. I think you can treat people as accountable, so
show up, you know, almost like give yourself up as accountable before asking other people to do the same, saying, Hey, I was wrong on this call last time. I really want to make sure that we get everybody's perspective on this. Here's what we want to achieve. Then you give people their ear, your ear so that you can get theirs in return. And I think this is a really interesting way of thinking, a really simple sort of gut check
(21:31):
that leaders can use
prior to essentially any team encounter. Because isn't the most powerful question is, you know, like something along the lines of How do we solve this together? Or how do we solve this problem? What do we need to do about this? And then waiting for the answer. But the answer never comes. If you don't
(21:51):
open the door for it properly.
Rick Williams (21:53):
Right?
Yeah, no, that's that's exactly right.
And you know, you're sort of leading on to another principle. Here I was thinking about Jack Walsh, who, you know, is a former CEO of General Electric.
and he used to say that
being the smartest person in the room, was not his job as the CEO,
(22:17):
his job as a CEO, was to ask questions
and discover what the heck was really going on.
And you know we
we often feel as the boss that you know we're supposed to know what's going on, we're supposed to know. Have all the answers we're supposed to know what the right thing to do at every moment is.
(22:44):
and in truth a you don't.
But it's really difficult for a lot of people, a lot of us. I'm not making any distinction with myself. A lot of us who have responsibility for organizations to say, hey, wait a second. I'm not really sure exactly what's going on.
(23:07):
and help me understand? Help me, help me be a better leader of our organization
by helping me understand really what the options I have are, what? What are the decisions I actually have to make? What are the options I have? What are the implications? If we go this way or that way. Are there any? Are there better ideas here that I haven't even thought of or heard of?
(23:34):
That, you know, coming to peace with yourself as somebody who really doesn't know everything is
an important maturing process for a leader.
and because the best leaders are not the ones who know everything. The best leaders are the ones who help
(23:57):
themselves and their team discover what are the best.
the best? What's the what's the best way to go reflecting the organization's goals, the risk preferences
and and the organization's values. So being willing to say.
(24:19):
Let's let's go through this. So we
you're going to help me make decisions. If I'm the decision maker. But let's go through this together and discover what's the right. What is the best
best way to go for this nonprofit or organization, or.
you know, soccer team, or whatever the heck it is
(24:40):
and and make a decision, make decisions that are going to come as close as we can to achieve our goals.
our risk preferences and our values.
Govindh Jayaraman (24:51):
Yeah, I think it's really interesting when you, when you're thinking about, you know, I keep on going back to your napkin and thinking about ways to incorporate.
Rick Williams (24:59):
Sure.
Govindh Jayaraman (25:00):
What you're what you're sharing with it. And it's really even you can't.
You can't ask people to be interested in engaged problem solvers applying curiosity to the situation. If you're not showing genuine interest in them, right? If you're not genuinely curious, if if like, and we've all been in those teams where somebody says they're in a position of authority. They're in a position of leadership. And they say, Yeah, yeah, I want to hear from you. But you know, they don't really want to hear from you. They're going to do whatever it is that they've decided already. And and right, you know.
(25:34):
they're they're just going through. They're checking off a list of questions that they need to ask, because they they got some kind of a guidebook. And they say, Oh, this is what leaders do. So I'm going to do that. But they don't care.
So.
Rick Williams (25:44):
Right.
Govindh Jayaraman (25:45):
But what you're talking about is something different than that. And you're talking about how your team has the ability to help you get things right, but you have to give them that opportunity. You have to actually be interested in it. You have to act like you're interested, and the best way to act like you're interested is actually being interested, you know, being curious.
Rick Williams (26:04):
Right? Yeah, no, that's exactly right. I
And and I think about
so I do. I do a lot of board of director works serving on the board, writing about boards of directors, which is sort of a little bit of an esoteric
specialty area in this. But what what you see so often is that leaders will say, Oh, I put my board of directors together, and
(26:31):
I say, Okay, well, who's actually on your board? Well, it's their golf, buddy. It's their accountant, it's their lawyer. It's
it's absolutely people who are not going to give them.
you know, good, independent advice. And and, in fact, what you what you want to do in putting any, whether it's your board of directors or your senior leadership. You don't want people who just think like you do. If if it's just more people like you, you might as well, you know, just make every decision on your own, and
(27:09):
you know you're going to make a lot of bum decisions because you're not hearing different points of view. The the better way to do this is to get people involved
who have experiences that are different than yours, and I don't mean somebody who's a jerk about it. I mean somebody who actually is a real contributor that that may have experiences in related markets, or
(27:34):
you know their their perspective is R&D, or something like that, or marketing, or Hr, or you know, the financial realities of the world, or whatever it is, but different than yours. Whatever yours are. I might be somebody who's a great outside person like dealing with customers, and
you know I want everybody to like me. And blah blah.
(27:57):
okay, well, don't get other people who are just like me. I mean, I don't want. I shouldn't get other people who are just like me as the people I talk to. I want to talk to people who are not like me.
and and then give them permission to
to, you know, share their thinking.
Now, that doesn't mean that
(28:18):
in the end I'm taking a vote, and it's a popularity contest. It's not. But I will make better decisions if I'm
a I'm surrounding people with different views than I have, and different life experiences than I have, and
I am very clear to them that
(28:38):
I want to. I want to understand. I want to hear it. I want to hear what they're really thinking I'm not just
you know. I'm not just sort of saying, Oh, I you know I've go through the process just as you said so, for instance, often.
it's you want to have
you want to have some. You want to have somebody involved. Who's that contrarian thinker that's thinking about
(29:04):
completely contrary to the way everybody else is thinking. Just so. You're understanding that point of view. You do want to have somebody who's a sort of reality person.
Well, you know.
you know, in order for this really to work, these 3 things would have to happen, and if they don't happen, it's not going to work. You want. You want to hear the reality person. You want to hear the person who says, You know, this is the way our investors or our financial partners. The banks are going to look at this, and you want to hear that point of view as well. So getting all these points of view is part of the process, and
(29:43):
it's essential that you find ways of communicating to each of them that their point of view, that they are important to this process, and that their point of view is an important contribution to this process.
And anyway, so
yeah, I mean, you have to in our in the language you're using, of giving, making yourself vulnerable, vulnerable by saying, I don't really understand.
(30:12):
I'm admitting that I don't understand everything that's going on, and your contribution is an important part of getting this right for all of us.
Govindh Jayaraman (30:20):
You know, this is really interesting. I mean, we're in a hypercharged, polarized time, generally speaking, right universally around the world. This is what's happening. And what I think is is you're saying is somewhat uncomfortable to people because we have this sort of sameness algorithm that we tend to govern our lives. By, I mean, a lot of people are sort of very insular, surrounding themselves by people who
(30:49):
think like they do walk like they do talk like they do. And you're really talking about challenging yourself
to be around people who think differently, who have different experiences. And truly in leadership there is nothing more valuable than a mosaic of different impressions, different ideas, different life experiences coming together to solve a challenge, because when you have that that diversity allows you to really
(31:21):
uncover genius in many cases, but it can be challenging for leaders to lead in that. It's hard to lead in those situations, because those differences can be challenging, and, I think giving before asking also opens the door to a productive conversation in that, even saying, Hey, you know
I'm struggling with some of what you're saying or where you're saying it from. But I want to understand the value right? So you can give the respect for the other person before asking for it in return. And don't you
(31:55):
don't you open the door for it when you do that, and you also open the door for for genius collaboration when you do that, too.
Rick Williams (32:03):
Yeah, no, that's exactly right. I you know, creativity is a
it's it's it's not a straight line process, right? Creativity requires.
you know breaking down barriers. Now, it doesn't mean that every idea is a great idea.
(32:26):
But
the the way the way you get really great ideas is not by saying, getting a group of people together and say.
Okay, we are at the whiteboard here. We're going to do a creative process. Give me your great idea. What's the next great idea we're going to have for this company. That is not the way to do it.
(32:47):
The the way to do it is to say, Okay,
what? Give us some ideas if we're just going to sort of continue doing what we're doing right now. So let's get some of those, you know, we're just more or less continue what we're doing.
what? What are some ideas that if we, you know, we, we sort of okay, we want to push things ahead, but we know we can be. We'll know if we really do it. We'll be successful at it. Okay, let's let's get a bunch of ideas on that.
(33:17):
and that I don't know box, or whatever it is.
What are some ideas that would be really stretch ideas. We might be able to do it, but we might not be able to do it. Let's get some ideas that are that are really stretch goals.
and then let's get some really silly ideas that you know our moonshot ideas that we probably couldn't do it. But if we did, we'd really transform how we're doing
(33:46):
what we're doing with this company. I'm talking about a company here, but it's the same principle.
And I I'm I don't want to hear just the great ideas. I want to hear every idea.
And what'll happen is that somebody's going to come up with an idea that's, you know, on the surface of it
(34:07):
could never work.
But
it's going to get somebody else to say, you know, now that you're saying that I hadn't thought about this. But what about this other idea. And what if we connected these 2 things or 3 things together
that could we make that work? That that is how you do creativity. So.
(34:29):
and then you. What you'll do is you'll discover from everything that you've now posted on the whiteboard or blackboard, or whatever you're doing.
you'll discover those 3 or 4 ideas out of out of all of that. That. Then come closer to matching what you're
underlying. Goals are, and your risk preferences, you know, risk we really talked about risk. But, you know, is failure going to be acceptable or not? Does this absolutely have to work? I mean, if you're if you're inventing a new, you know, creating a new medicine for children. It absolutely. And it goes to the market absolutely has to work. But if you're doing something else where, you know, failure could be a failure could be an
(35:15):
an option, because what you get out of it you may learn enough that that just the process of having tried to make it work
is worth the effort, because then you'll learn a lot about the technology or what the market really wants, or what your real capabilities are. All that sort of stuff
could come out of a project that isn't in the end itself successful. But then you learn enough to make the next the next effort successful. I'm kind of talking too much here, but but.
Govindh Jayaraman (35:46):
Don't know. I think that makes a lot of sense.
Rick Williams (35:47):
About creativity.
Govindh Jayaraman (35:49):
Yeah, I know. But I think I think what you're talking about is is really valuable.
Rick, I mean, I think we could keep on talking for a while on on your napkin and the associated ideas, and I want to thank you for that. I also, this season we've been
paying forward some gratitude that we received a message that we received many years ago from John Rulin, who's a great friend of the show. He suddenly passed away, and he gave us a napkin that said what you appreciate appreciates. So we're asking our guests in this season to
(36:22):
shout out someone that they'd like to give some gratitude or appreciation to who would you like to shout out.
Rick Williams (36:31):
You know, I've thought about that a little bit, and you know, obviously I could save my mom and dad for whatever. But
you know somebody that comes to my mind, who's in exactly the circumstances of your friend is a guy named Mike Porter, and Mike was a professor of mine at Harvard Business School.
(36:52):
and he is one of the was one of the most. Mike is the person who's thought about
business strategy and how companies compete with each other, and it's sort of the the principal author of the literature on How Companies Compete and succeed in different industries. And Mike, I can't say that he was a close friend, but he was certainly an important
(37:20):
mentor of mine. We I did a lot of work parallel to what he was doing when I was at Arthur D. Little.
and Mike is unfortunately
he's 1 of the most energetic, dynamic people you've ever met in your life. I remember him coming into class with a diet coke in his hand. That he was this. He was not a guy out drinking Margaritas. He was a guy who was physically fit and energetic at all times.
(37:50):
and Mike, unfortunately, has become quite ill in the last year, and
you know I know at some point as, and he's sort of passed from
our world as a major professional contributor, and I guess I'm going to do a shout out to Mike Porter, who's been one of my
friends and colleagues from Harvard Business School.
Govindh Jayaraman (38:12):
That's amazing, for those of you don't know. Mike Porter is a famous researcher and professor
at Harvard Business School, reading, writing volumes of books on competition, and and how competitive forces are formed, and how to get an advantage. So if you're not familiar with Michael Porter's work.
(38:38):
there's a lot out there to get familiar with
Rick. Thank you for joining me.
Rick Williams (38:44):
Well, thank you for having me. I really enjoyed this, and I want to thank you for asking the question because you asked the question. It was extremely valuable to me.
Govindh Jayaraman (38:53):
Wonderful.
Rick Williams. Welcome to paper napkin wisdom. I'm excited to have you here today.
Rick Williams (00:07):
Thank you. It's great to be here.
Govindh Jayaraman (00:09):
So you shared a very interesting napkin with me, and I'm looking forward to dig again. It says, Give before asking.
why did you share that with me?
Rick Williams (00:21):
Well, I you put a challenge question to me of what
I I don't know. Wisdom. I don't know if we even call it wisdom or insight or simple statement.
And as I thought about it in the context of a lot of writing, I've been doing about leadership and leadership effectiveness.
(00:42):
I thought of the idea of give before asking.
as a simple way of summing up what I think is a fundamental principle
of leadership, and certainly of life in general. I think
how we deal with others. If we start with the idea of giving before asking
(01:05):
that, we'll have a much more successful, impactful
life, and certainly I think you'll be a better leader if you do that.
Govindh Jayaraman (01:14):
So what do you mean, though, by give before asking, What is that? You know? What was the genesis of this idea for you.
Rick Williams (01:23):
Well, I you know all of us. And as I said, I do a lot of writing about how to be a more impactful leader. So my sort of starting orientation is is there. But I think the principles apply more generally as well. So the idea is that we usually are mostly focused on whether we like it or not, are mostly focused on ourselves. Well, what do we want? What do we need?
(01:51):
Gee, I want you to do something to help me.
and if you're on the other side of it, and I come to you and say.
Gee, I want you to to promote my new book, or something like that.
you know, you might say, Well, okay, maybe I will. Maybe I won't. But what you're really asking is, well, why? Why should I do that? And that's the natural reaction that we all have.
(02:21):
because when somebody comes and says, Well, gee! I want you to join my company, or I want you to buy my product, or I want you to be my friend. Whatever it is.
we we are instinctively, whether we think about it explicitly or not, we're sort of saying.
Okay, I hear you saying that. But why? What kind of what's in it for me?
(02:43):
And it's it's in truth is really not a selfish question. That's that is, you know, that's how we that that's just sort of natural for human interaction.
And if if you understand that. That's how we interact with the people and put yourself on the other side and say, Okay, I want you. I want my customers to buy my new widget, or my new service, my consulting service, or something else.
(03:13):
instead of just saying to them, Well, gee! I have a new! I have a new widget, and I want you to buy it.
That is not the right place to start. You're better off by starting by saying I'm going to give you something.
If I'm going to give you the value of my new
washing machine, or my new consulting service, or my new friendship, or whatever it is, start by giving what? What is the value that that you are offering to somebody? Give them an offering of value.
(03:50):
and then, once they feel there's value in what you are offering giving. Then there's a basis for conversation about what you're asking of them. You may be asking of them to buy something. I think this goes way beyond that sort of simple notion of a transaction. But that's the basic idea. The basic idea is, start
(04:13):
start by giving.
Don't start by asking.
Govindh Jayaraman (04:19):
Yeah. And you know, I think inherent with the way that you approached that Rick was.
You know you.
It's not giving something. That's willy-nilly, right? You're not giving away willy-nilly. You're giving something of value. You've said this a few times, so, in order to give something of value, you have to approach that conversation with curiosity. Right? Like, what is the other person value? That's isn't that a center? Isn't that sort of like the central part of this that sort of like sort of hidden. The prize inside is a little bit of hey? We need to know what the other person might be interested in.
Rick Williams (04:56):
Absolutely so you are, I mean, just think of any
any interaction with your 1st meeting somebody.
if the first, st if the 1st thing you're saying when you meet somebody is, I'm Rick Williams. I think I'm an important person. I have a new book that you should buy.
That person is completely turned off
(05:18):
instantly by your talking about yourself, and who you are and what you need. And blah blah!
If you meet a new person, if I need a new person. The 1st thing I should be doing is this finding about who they are?
Discover? Ask, ask what their name is.
Ask why? You know. Why did they come to this event?
(05:40):
You know. What do they do? Learn something about them, and find a way of making a connection with them before talking about yourself and what you want for yourself.
That is a form of giving you're you're giving acknowledgement that that person is somebody that you're really paying attention to in this moment. You're giving an acknowledgement that that person is worth your time. You're giving an acknowledgement that you're interested in who they are.
(06:07):
That is, that is a form of giving which in truth doesn't cost you anything, but it is extremely valuable to the other person.
and that that giving posture is the way to start any new relationship conversation, whether it's, you know, with somebody you'd like to, you know, meet and go out on a date with, or somebody you are meeting, who you hope will be a new customer, or somebody who you hope will be a new employee. It's the same principle in every single new relationship.
Govindh Jayaraman (06:42):
You know, one of the things that I think is really powerful when you said it is is, there's there's almost like a hidden word in this napkin right? Like, give attention before asking for attention.
It's it, and that's where it starts and and isn't there, you know, in
inherent with that, I think, is leaders need to be confident and curious. Right? Don't, don't you? Isn't that where it starts, the the energy of giving attention comes from a fact that
(07:12):
you're secure with who you are, so I can give somebody attention. You don't need to fill the air with yourself. You don't have to fill the room with yourself, because you don't need that. You could give attention.
Rick Williams (07:24):
Right. Exactly right. Now. That's a very, very good point, is it's what you're saying is.
don't make it just about yourself.
Give of yourself to the others that they are important.
that they're they're important to you.
If I'm if I'm meeting somebody, I want that person to feel that they are important to me, at least in this moment, in time, that who they are and they're worth my time.
(07:54):
and that that is the way that we then take down all these barriers to connecting with each other.
Govindh Jayaraman (08:04):
And there's no hook to that right? I mean, there's no you can't fake that, can you? You have to actually
be interested. You have to actually give them attention. You actually have to pay attention, because people know when you're not, don't they.
Rick Williams (08:21):
Oh, absolutely no! And I don't mean this in an in an in.
you know, disingenuous way, I'm I think this is serious. I
I mean, i 1 of the things about, if I may kind of broaden this to the principles of leadership
is that you know leader leadership depends on trust and
(08:48):
trust is built on people feeling that they can be open with each other and understand who each other are.
I may have the grammar wrong on that. But whatever I I leadership is is built on trust
and trust starts by giving.
(09:10):
If if I don't trust you enough to give you something of myself.
Then don't expect people to trust you.
I cannot expect you to trust me unless I'm willing to be open and and vulnerable enough to trust you that that's the fundamental starting point of leadership.
(09:30):
So when I say I say, I want you to. I want my leadership team to follow me in a new direction, or, you know, a change direction. For where we, as a you know, a nonprofit or the football team or the company, are going.
I have to build trust with the team members. And the way I build trust with the team members is to say to them, Okay, I trust A, I want to know who you are and how you're going to contribute to this. I trust you enough to tell you what I'm really thinking here. I trust you
(10:13):
enough to want to understand your views about what we're trying to do, and I am going to share with you my vision of success that I'm hoping we can all share together.
That sharing of a vision of success
is part of the process of building trust and that giving of a vision of success
(10:37):
where we're going to go if we all work together is part of the giving process. So that's why that's why giving is is a unifying idea for all of this.
You can't just say I'm the boss. Follow me
and expect that people are going. I mean, yeah, I mean, some people are going to? All right. Yeah, he is the boss. Okay, we'll go along. But if you want real people to really be engaged with making the enterprise successful.
(11:08):
just saying you're the boss, and do what I tell you to do is not the way to make it happen.
Govindh Jayaraman (11:14):
Yeah.
you know one of the things that I'm I'm you know. So the 1st time I said, Hey, you know, there's this silent word give attention before asking for it. But then the next iteration. The next example was, trust. You're really talking about giving trust before asking for trust, giving vision before asking for buy-in. It's it's it's, I think, that this is, you know, the the blank slide or the blank line insert word here
(11:45):
was intentionally left out of the napkin, because it really relates to everything. If you want trust, you must give it before asking for it. If you want attention, you must give it before asking for it. If you want people to participate in your vision before asking them to join you on the journey, you have to give it to them, and trust that to them right.
Rick Williams (12:04):
Right.
Govindh Jayaraman (12:05):
So so is is, that is, was that what you meant by by constructing this wisdom is this, is this, what you're really talking about is in every action.
Give what it is that you're looking for before you can ask for it.
Rick Williams (12:21):
Yes, that's why that's why, when we we had our conversation about this napkin
it happened at a moment when I was doing a lot of thinking about
what are the core principles of leadership.
And as I thought about it
(12:41):
I mean, I hadn't really said it this way before. But that's why I'm giving you a compliment that you got me to write this down in 3 simple words, a principle that I think is fundamental to
to successful leadership.
It's also fundamental to, I think, to every relationship that one has in life. But but certainly it's fundamental to leadership, because.
(13:11):
you know, I mean, I'm not telling you anything you don't already know, but often
the boss or the leader thinks that all they have to do is just tell people what to do.
And yeah, I mean, in limited circumstances. And you get small.
(13:32):
you know, a small company or office, or somebody like that, where it's all right, you know, we're all getting a paycheck, and you know we'll do whatever the boss wants. And blah, blah, okay, I mean, you can kind of go along that way. But it's certainly not. It's not the way you want to operate if you want to be really successful in anything.
(13:53):
And so this. What what you did is get me to crystallize this idea in 3 simple words, and it is an idea that I think is fundamental to any successful
to to a leader being successful of any organization of any consequence.
Govindh Jayaraman (14:14):
Yeah. And I, really, I really think it's.
I think it's really scalably applicable to a lot of different environments.
If if especially, you know. So really
a lot of things. You know. There are several pre-steps to this before a leader can engage in this way.
(14:34):
I think the leader has to be aware of
their mindset, you know. Where are they? What are they there to do? And if you're there for trust building, well, then, you have to give the trust before asking for it. If you're there for attention so that people can be focused, you have to give them your focus before you get it. And there's a core philosophy I have around leadership, that is, you need to connect with people before you can challenge them.
(15:02):
You need to connect with them before you, you can move forward by giving. Don't you open the door for connection? Right? Like genuine human connection, comes by giving that generosity of our hearts and heads.
Rick Williams (15:16):
Right, absolutely. I you know I
again. We're not here to talk about.
Talk about my new book, but I I will. I'm going to draw something from
from create the future in that. What I'm advising
leaders to do when they're faced with making an important decision
(15:39):
is to step back and not just oh, here's a decision I have to make about whether how we're going to introduce this product or buy this company, or sell out, or whatever what the heck we're going to do.
I say, step back.
take time to make sure you're really doing this right. And what I'm advising people to do is to draw in a small group of key advisors to help you make the decision. It's not that they're going to vote on what you should do
(16:10):
but ask them, present them with what the challenges that you or the company is facing
and get their inputs on it, their different perspectives and core to that, and get their thoughts on what you should be doing or can be doing. What are the real options you have, and the core to that is making it clear that you are open to hearing their points of view, you know, so often, you know the boss, and I'm just using it as a cliche term here, will, you know, pull, pull a group of
(16:46):
you know, senior leaders or team members, or whatever it is together, and say, here's what we're going to do. And you know, you know, blah blah, just go off and do it. I'm saying.
Okay, that is appropriate. Sometimes, when some decision has already been made. But if you're faced with a really challenging decision, bring those same people together and say, you know, I have some thoughts about this, but here's what we're really dealing with, and I want to get your
(17:15):
your views on this share, your experiences of being in similar situations.
And I want to. I'm going to and
find ways to take down the barriers to people opening, being open and talking about what their real thoughts are, their experiences, even saying that you know my, the leader's understanding of what's going on may be completely wrong.
(17:41):
and this has to do with building trust in that kind of an environment to say, to say.
I am giving you. I I am giving you a permission in the language we're talking about.
I'm giving you permission to share. Share your thinking on this, even the thinking that I might be wrong.
(18:02):
I am encouraging you to be creative.
to take down the barriers. I want to hear crazy ideas, even ideas that are completely silly
at 1st blush.
because those ideas may get all of us thinking about other ideas that really aren't crazy that we never would have thought about before. So what what you have to do as the leader is to
(18:27):
is to give give of yourself, saying I I might be wrong
in the end. I will make the decisions I have to make, but I want you to feel open to talking about sharing your own real experiences, your own thinking
put crazy ideas on the table.
(18:49):
Tell us, really, tell us what you're you tell us the
times that have. Have you dealt with an issue like this before that's relevant to this that we may never I've never even heard of before, anyway. So that is
that whole process, for how to make important decisions rests on building trust, and trust
(19:12):
comes from being willing to give something of yourself I talk about in terms of being leaders, leaders must be both decisive and vulnerable.
Vulnerable means. That means that you're willing to say I might be wrong, leader. Vulnerability means that
(19:32):
you're willing to say, I might not really understand all the issues here, or understand the dynamics of why our marketplace is changing in ways that we hadn't anticipated.
That that's what vulnerability is. And vulnerability is is another way of
(19:52):
building, I mean is a way, an important way of building trust in that. You're giving yourself to the other people to to see you see you as a human being who might
a might be wrong and is open to hearing other points of view those. Those are the core requirements for
(20:14):
making making difficult decisions. And I think that giving is part of is a core part of that I know.
Govindh Jayaraman (20:23):
I think another way of saying that using your napkin as a lever is, give an open mind before asking for an open mind, give an open heart before you ask for an open heart. And I think that that's really what you're saying when you're saying you're talking about being open to being wrong and open to learning, open to adjustment, open to all of those kinds of things.
(20:47):
You have to demonstrate that in action I used to always.
I don't believe you can hold anybody accountable. I think you can treat people as accountable, so
show up, you know, almost like give yourself up as accountable before asking other people to do the same, saying, Hey, I was wrong on this call last time. I really want to make sure that we get everybody's perspective on this. Here's what we want to achieve. Then you give people their ear, your ear so that you can get theirs in return. And I think this is a really interesting way of thinking, a really simple sort of gut check
(21:31):
that leaders can use
prior to essentially any team encounter. Because isn't the most powerful question is, you know, like something along the lines of How do we solve this together? Or how do we solve this problem? What do we need to do about this? And then waiting for the answer. But the answer never comes. If you don't
(21:51):
open the door for it properly.
Rick Williams (21:53):
Right?
Yeah, no, that's that's exactly right.
And you know, you're sort of leading on to another principle. Here I was thinking about Jack Walsh, who, you know, is a former CEO of General Electric.
and he used to say that
being the smartest person in the room, was not his job as the CEO,
(22:17):
his job as a CEO, was to ask questions
and discover what the heck was really going on.
And you know we
we often feel as the boss that you know we're supposed to know what's going on, we're supposed to know. Have all the answers we're supposed to know what the right thing to do at every moment is.
(22:44):
and in truth a you don't.
But it's really difficult for a lot of people, a lot of us. I'm not making any distinction with myself. A lot of us who have responsibility for organizations to say, hey, wait a second. I'm not really sure exactly what's going on.
(23:07):
and help me understand? Help me, help me be a better leader of our organization
by helping me understand really what the options I have are, what? What are the decisions I actually have to make? What are the options I have? What are the implications? If we go this way or that way. Are there any? Are there better ideas here that I haven't even thought of or heard of?
(23:34):
That, you know, coming to peace with yourself as somebody who really doesn't know everything is
an important maturing process for a leader.
and because the best leaders are not the ones who know everything. The best leaders are the ones who help
(23:57):
themselves and their team discover what are the best.
the best? What's the what's the best way to go reflecting the organization's goals, the risk preferences
and and the organization's values. So being willing to say.
(24:19):
Let's let's go through this. So we
you're going to help me make decisions. If I'm the decision maker. But let's go through this together and discover what's the right. What is the best
best way to go for this nonprofit or organization, or.
you know, soccer team, or whatever the heck it is
(24:40):
and and make a decision, make decisions that are going to come as close as we can to achieve our goals.
our risk preferences and our values.
Govindh Jayaraman (24:51):
Yeah, I think it's really interesting when you, when you're thinking about, you know, I keep on going back to your napkin and thinking about ways to incorporate.
Rick Williams (24:59):
Sure.
Govindh Jayaraman (25:00):
What you're what you're sharing with it. And it's really even you can't.
You can't ask people to be interested in engaged problem solvers applying curiosity to the situation. If you're not showing genuine interest in them, right? If you're not genuinely curious, if if like, and we've all been in those teams where somebody says they're in a position of authority. They're in a position of leadership. And they say, Yeah, yeah, I want to hear from you. But you know, they don't really want to hear from you. They're going to do whatever it is that they've decided already. And and right, you know.
(25:34):
they're they're just going through. They're checking off a list of questions that they need to ask, because they they got some kind of a guidebook. And they say, Oh, this is what leaders do. So I'm going to do that. But they don't care.
So.
Rick Williams (25:44):
Right.
Govindh Jayaraman (25:45):
But what you're talking about is something different than that. And you're talking about how your team has the ability to help you get things right, but you have to give them that opportunity. You have to actually be interested in it. You have to act like you're interested, and the best way to act like you're interested is actually being interested, you know, being curious.
Rick Williams (26:04):
Right? Yeah, no, that's exactly right. I
And and I think about
so I do. I do a lot of board of director works serving on the board, writing about boards of directors, which is sort of a little bit of an esoteric
specialty area in this. But what what you see so often is that leaders will say, Oh, I put my board of directors together, and
(26:31):
I say, Okay, well, who's actually on your board? Well, it's their golf, buddy. It's their accountant, it's their lawyer. It's
it's absolutely people who are not going to give them.
you know, good, independent advice. And and, in fact, what you what you want to do in putting any, whether it's your board of directors or your senior leadership. You don't want people who just think like you do. If if it's just more people like you, you might as well, you know, just make every decision on your own, and
(27:09):
you know you're going to make a lot of bum decisions because you're not hearing different points of view. The the better way to do this is to get people involved
who have experiences that are different than yours, and I don't mean somebody who's a jerk about it. I mean somebody who actually is a real contributor that that may have experiences in related markets, or
(27:34):
you know their their perspective is R&D, or something like that, or marketing, or Hr, or you know, the financial realities of the world, or whatever it is, but different than yours. Whatever yours are. I might be somebody who's a great outside person like dealing with customers, and
you know I want everybody to like me. And blah blah.
(27:57):
okay, well, don't get other people who are just like me. I mean, I don't want. I shouldn't get other people who are just like me as the people I talk to. I want to talk to people who are not like me.
and and then give them permission to
to, you know, share their thinking.
Now, that doesn't mean that
(28:18):
in the end I'm taking a vote, and it's a popularity contest. It's not. But I will make better decisions if I'm
a I'm surrounding people with different views than I have, and different life experiences than I have, and
I am very clear to them that
(28:38):
I want to. I want to understand. I want to hear it. I want to hear what they're really thinking I'm not just
you know. I'm not just sort of saying, Oh, I you know I've go through the process just as you said so, for instance, often.
it's you want to have
you want to have some. You want to have somebody involved. Who's that contrarian thinker that's thinking about
(29:04):
completely contrary to the way everybody else is thinking. Just so. You're understanding that point of view. You do want to have somebody who's a sort of reality person.
Well, you know.
you know, in order for this really to work, these 3 things would have to happen, and if they don't happen, it's not going to work. You want. You want to hear the reality person. You want to hear the person who says, You know, this is the way our investors or our financial partners. The banks are going to look at this, and you want to hear that point of view as well. So getting all these points of view is part of the process, and
(29:43):
it's essential that you find ways of communicating to each of them that their point of view, that they are important to this process, and that their point of view is an important contribution to this process.
And anyway, so
yeah, I mean, you have to in our in the language you're using, of giving, making yourself vulnerable, vulnerable by saying, I don't really understand.
(30:12):
I'm admitting that I don't understand everything that's going on, and your contribution is an important part of getting this right for all of us.
Govindh Jayaraman (30:20):
You know, this is really interesting. I mean, we're in a hypercharged, polarized time, generally speaking, right universally around the world. This is what's happening. And what I think is is you're saying is somewhat uncomfortable to people because we have this sort of sameness algorithm that we tend to govern our lives. By, I mean, a lot of people are sort of very insular, surrounding themselves by people who
(30:49):
think like they do walk like they do talk like they do. And you're really talking about challenging yourself
to be around people who think differently, who have different experiences. And truly in leadership there is nothing more valuable than a mosaic of different impressions, different ideas, different life experiences coming together to solve a challenge, because when you have that that diversity allows you to really
(31:21):
uncover genius in many cases, but it can be challenging for leaders to lead in that. It's hard to lead in those situations, because those differences can be challenging, and, I think giving before asking also opens the door to a productive conversation in that, even saying, Hey, you know
I'm struggling with some of what you're saying or where you're saying it from. But I want to understand the value right? So you can give the respect for the other person before asking for it in return. And don't you
(31:55):
don't you open the door for it when you do that, and you also open the door for for genius collaboration when you do that, too.
Rick Williams (32:03):
Yeah, no, that's exactly right. I you know, creativity is a
it's it's it's not a straight line process, right? Creativity requires.
you know breaking down barriers. Now, it doesn't mean that every idea is a great idea.
(32:26):
But
the the way the way you get really great ideas is not by saying, getting a group of people together and say.
Okay, we are at the whiteboard here. We're going to do a creative process. Give me your great idea. What's the next great idea we're going to have for this company. That is not the way to do it.
(32:47):
The the way to do it is to say, Okay,
what? Give us some ideas if we're just going to sort of continue doing what we're doing right now. So let's get some of those, you know, we're just more or less continue what we're doing.
what? What are some ideas that if we, you know, we, we sort of okay, we want to push things ahead, but we know we can be. We'll know if we really do it. We'll be successful at it. Okay, let's let's get a bunch of ideas on that.
(33:17):
and that I don't know box, or whatever it is.
What are some ideas that would be really stretch ideas. We might be able to do it, but we might not be able to do it. Let's get some ideas that are that are really stretch goals.
and then let's get some really silly ideas that you know our moonshot ideas that we probably couldn't do it. But if we did, we'd really transform how we're doing
(33:46):
what we're doing with this company. I'm talking about a company here, but it's the same principle.
And I I'm I don't want to hear just the great ideas. I want to hear every idea.
And what'll happen is that somebody's going to come up with an idea that's, you know, on the surface of it
(34:07):
could never work.
But
it's going to get somebody else to say, you know, now that you're saying that I hadn't thought about this. But what about this other idea. And what if we connected these 2 things or 3 things together
that could we make that work? That that is how you do creativity. So.
(34:29):
and then you. What you'll do is you'll discover from everything that you've now posted on the whiteboard or blackboard, or whatever you're doing.
you'll discover those 3 or 4 ideas out of out of all of that. That. Then come closer to matching what you're
underlying. Goals are, and your risk preferences, you know, risk we really talked about risk. But, you know, is failure going to be acceptable or not? Does this absolutely have to work? I mean, if you're if you're inventing a new, you know, creating a new medicine for children. It absolutely. And it goes to the market absolutely has to work. But if you're doing something else where, you know, failure could be a failure could be an
(35:15):
an option, because what you get out of it you may learn enough that that just the process of having tried to make it work
is worth the effort, because then you'll learn a lot about the technology or what the market really wants, or what your real capabilities are. All that sort of stuff
could come out of a project that isn't in the end itself successful. But then you learn enough to make the next the next effort successful. I'm kind of talking too much here, but but.
Govindh Jayaraman (35:46):
Don't know. I think that makes a lot of sense.
Rick Williams (35:47):
About creativity.
Govindh Jayaraman (35:49):
Yeah, I know. But I think I think what you're talking about is is really valuable.
Rick, I mean, I think we could keep on talking for a while on on your napkin and the associated ideas, and I want to thank you for that. I also, this season we've been
paying forward some gratitude that we received a message that we received many years ago from John Rulin, who's a great friend of the show. He suddenly passed away, and he gave us a napkin that said what you appreciate appreciates. So we're asking our guests in this season to
(36:22):
shout out someone that they'd like to give some gratitude or appreciation to who would you like to shout out.
Rick Williams (36:31):
You know, I've thought about that a little bit, and you know, obviously I could save my mom and dad for whatever. But
you know somebody that comes to my mind, who's in exactly the circumstances of your friend is a guy named Mike Porter, and Mike was a professor of mine at Harvard Business School.
(36:52):
and he is one of the was one of the most. Mike is the person who's thought about
business strategy and how companies compete with each other, and it's sort of the the principal author of the literature on How Companies Compete and succeed in different industries. And Mike, I can't say that he was a close friend, but he was certainly an important
(37:20):
mentor of mine. We I did a lot of work parallel to what he was doing when I was at Arthur D. Little.
and Mike is unfortunately
he's 1 of the most energetic, dynamic people you've ever met in your life. I remember him coming into class with a diet coke in his hand. That he was this. He was not a guy out drinking Margaritas. He was a guy who was physically fit and energetic at all times.
(37:50):
and Mike, unfortunately, has become quite ill in the last year, and
you know I know at some point as, and he's sort of passed from
our world as a major professional contributor, and I guess I'm going to do a shout out to Mike Porter, who's been one of my
friends and colleagues from Harvard Business School.
Govindh Jayaraman (38:12):
That's amazing, for those of you don't know. Mike Porter is a famous researcher and professor
at Harvard Business School, reading, writing volumes of books on competition, and and how competitive forces are formed, and how to get an advantage. So if you're not familiar with Michael Porter's work.
(38:38):
there's a lot out there to get familiar with
Rick. Thank you for joining me.
Rick Williams (38:44):
Well, thank you for having me. I really enjoyed this, and I want to thank you for asking the question because you asked the question. It was extremely valuable to me.
Govindh Jayaraman (38:53):
Wonderful.
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