Michael Walsh is no stranger to the Paper Napkin Wisdom podcast. As a seasoned leadership strategist, business growth expert, and founder of Walsh Business Growth, Michael returns with another powerful idea that challenges how we think about hiring in today’s knowledge-driven economy.
In part 7 of our Freedom by Design series, we dive into the human side of performance—and Michael’s handwritten napkin drives home one essential truth: Hiring right is half the game. But what does hiring right actually mean in a business world increasingly driven by expertise, not just execution?
According to Michael, every business is an expertise-based business, even if it doesn’t realize it yet. “You may think you’re selling a product,” he says, “but you’re selling the depth, nuance, and trust that comes with expertise.” This shift means that hiring can’t just be about skills—it has to be about attributes that fuel long-term contribution.
That’s where Michael’s napkin comes in.
The 6 Key Attributes to Hire For
Michael outlines six powerful attributes that he believes should define your hiring lens—especially in an expertise-based business:
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Clear Thinking The ability to distill noise into clarity is vital. Michael notes, “You don’t need people who know everything—you need people who can think through anything.”
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Hunger to Learn Expertise grows through learning. The most successful team members are constantly seeking to expand what they know and how they apply it.
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A Curious Mind Curiosity isn’t just a trait—it’s a growth engine. People who ask questions tend to uncover opportunities others miss.
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Humble Outlook In Michael’s words, “Humble people listen better, contribute more effectively, and build stronger relationships across the organization.”
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Commitment to Contribute This is about more than showing up. It’s about leaning in—being proactive, invested, and aligned with the organization’s purpose.
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Open to Others’ Contributions Collaboration is key in expertise-based work. Hiring individuals who value collective input over solo performance accelerates learning and results.
Why This Matters More Than Ever
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Govindh Jayaraman (00:02):
Michael Walsh. Welcome back to paper napkin! Wisdom thrilled that you're back.
Michael Walsh (00:06):
Well, thanks for having me back.
Govindh Jayaraman (00:08):
Well, I love the series that we're doing, and for everybody listening. I want to give you a quick
rundown of where we are. This is now the 6th part in this series, and I'm not going to tell you how many pieces there are, because there are a lot. But the 6th part in the series, we started talking about the 4 danger zones. After talking about the 4 danger zones, we went on to talking about what really were the 4 danger zones, and they related to people, and how every time we add a person to our organization as we get bigger and bigger, it's an exponential increase in the number of one on one relationships and the complexity behind them.
(00:42):
When thinking about people, we talked about the 4 driving influences of human behavior survive, thrive, connect, and adapt, which led us to this idea, and this is a really profound one, that we have to rethink the core, rethinking the core, the old core of the business being results are driven by customer value and your profit and your people sort of feed those 2 things. But we have to rethink that that our results and our teams
(01:07):
build profit value. And most importantly, the professional and personal growth of our team themselves. So.
6th P. So to speak.
Then we talked about the Social Contract and how there's 2 sides of the Social Contract thinking about that dynamic one on the owner company side and second, for individual employees. On the owner, company side we had generate individual results, generate collective results, build a strong culture, make progress towards the Company's larger purpose on
(01:36):
the individual side, compensation, of course, professional training, growth.
access to meaningful work and access to develop meaningful relationships. And I think we take that number 4 for granted. We talked about that at length. In our last episode
today, all of this brings us to hiring smart for your expertise, based business and spoiler alert. Every business is an expertise based. Business doesn't matter what you think. You're selling expertise so and hiring
(02:08):
right is half the game.
What did you mean by that.
Michael Walsh (02:13):
Everybody works on. Well, how do I get my system sorted out? How do I make sure that my product is priced properly? You know all the different aspects of what it takes to grow and run a an effective business. And it's appropriate that they focus on all those things. But in any service based business, especially a service based business that actually relies on the expertise or growing expertise of the people. Literally, half of your success will be a function directly of who you get in the door.
(02:42):
and the other is what you do once you got them in the door. But I gotta tell you until you get them in the door like you get the wrong people in the door. I don't care how good you are. I don't care how friendly they are with each other. If I'm building an orchestra, and the people are really friendly, and they're nice, and their hearts in the right spot, and they just can't
perform like they don't know how to use their instruments. You know the the musical instruments. You're in a situation where you're not gonna have a very good orchestra.
(03:07):
You need the skills and talents of your people, but you also need them to be able to work with each other, because if I get incredibly talented people, but they're all fighting with each other. I'm still gonna have a mess on my hands. You need the right people in the room.
literally half the game.
Govindh Jayaraman (03:23):
Nobody. And we talked about this before we started today. Nobody goes out there thinking they're hiring badly.
I think I think everybody thinks that they're doing the best they can. So so somebody out there there's somebody's listening going.
Michael Govin. I'm doing the best I can. I'm getting the best I can, but I'm still.
(03:44):
I don't feel like I don't think I think very few people feel like they're nailing this piece
right? Very few people think they're nailing this piece consistently and at the same time everybody's conscious of it. So why is this so hard.
Michael Walsh (03:58):
Well, great question. I mean, the thing that I'm finding is that
it's probably the biggest frustration people have that I hear from business owners. They can't find the right people for the roles that they want. You know that they want to. I need somebody at this level, not way higher. That cost me too much, not way lower, that I need to grow them into it, because I don't have the time to grow them in. I just can't find. Great people are really hard to find. In fact, I'll even pay the premium. But I can't find the people that are great.
(04:22):
Probably one of the most common things like you said nobody says I think I'll get like, you know, people that are not that good, and I'll just pay them less, and like goes, no, it's called. I get the best that I can afford.
Okay? And and so basically, there's 2 reasons why they run into that.
Okay, the 1st one is that they don't aim high enough. Okay? 2 fundamental reasons. This is the 1st one. They're not aiming high enough. And the second one is saying yes to somebody out of desperation, even though you know they're not a great fit, or you're hoping they are a great fit, and you choose to ignore the telltale signs
(04:57):
so that you know maybe I'm wrong, you know, and and it's fascinating to see you know what's there, because it's less see attracting the right fit persons less about who's available.
and more about your perspective on both recruiting and selection of your people.
Govindh Jayaraman (05:18):
I think that's really really important. And how how much of this also relates to what
I think that there are people, what I've I've observed their organizations, and I've said, Man.
they really hire. Well.
but then you get in closer, and it's like, Oh, maybe it's not so good. Maybe it's not, and you talk to their CEO. And I've talked to their CEO after watching them from the outside. And it's like, No, no, we're always struggling with it. This is something that is an always thing. It's never owned right. It's something you have to do every day. You have to do right every day, and I think focusing on your 6 key attributes is a pathway
(06:02):
to reset aiming high enough or aiming right for the right roles right.
Michael Walsh (06:07):
Absolutely. And and because if you don't do that, you see, one of the biggest things is, if I settle for somebody who's not quite the best fit.
The costs are large. I'll I'll talk with. Well, you know they're good enough for now, and I listen. There's just no better out there I like. I don't know how to find somebody that's better. That's out there, you know. So I have to deal with what I've got, and as a result. What you've got is you get uneven performance. And sometimes, you know, either active or passive descent. Okay, you'll get things like bare minimum effort. Okay? And
(06:41):
passive dependency is another thing that can show up. So there's like, there's a number of different aspects of what's happening. It's interesting, because in in some places right now. One of the things that I'm noticing is like there's 1 woman who owns a firm that actually helps fund businesses in the Us.
And she. She needs people in the office 3 days a week, and she's fine work from home for a couple of days a week, as far as that's concerned. So she's looking for a hybrid arrangement, and she's getting people that say, yep, yep, no problem. You know, I can do that. No problem. And now, what's happening is that she hires people. There's always an excuse, and what she's got is people that are coming in maximum one day a week. And frankly, it's just not working
(07:23):
like the nature of the teamwork that they have in their office. They need to be connected at least 3 of those days, and and it doesn't work, and she's she's pulling her hair out. She's like, yeah. But I asked them, and they say, yes. And then then what's happening is, they're they're just not. And and I don't know what to do with that. It's like she's not alone. I'm seeing this a lot. That's just one example, you know, or hiring somebody hoping that they can grow into the role.
(07:49):
you know, or hiring somebody that seems to be really good at the role. But they're not as good with people.
And so so what you find is that you almost get mercenaries in there. They'll, you know. I'll do this, and I'll do that, and you know. But but don't ask me to work with these people here, or that people there, or follow your instructions, because I'm going to do this my way. As far as that's concerned, it's it's interesting, because sometimes you have the the pendulum swinging in on behalf of the the employer, and sometimes the pendulum swings on behalf of the employee. Now.
(08:20):
even to think in those terms
is based in an Us. Them, so
that thinking by itself is actually part of the problem.
you know. And so the key is, I have to change my thinking as far as that's concerned.
Govindh Jayaraman (08:38):
And this is where rethinking the core comes in so much. I don't want to pass by 2 things that you said that won't be common terminology to a lot of people, you said active and passive dissent. Now we can understand active descent. It's.
you know, the proverbial telling you where to go. But what's passive dissent.
Michael Walsh (08:58):
When I say absolutely everything's fine your face
and I'll bitch about you to my my neighbors behind your back.
you know, cause I'll only I'm smart enough to only say to other people who feel similar to me.
but but I gotta tell you it's fascinating to see what's done to your face, and what's what's said behind your back.
Govindh Jayaraman (09:18):
I may not even say anything to anybody. I'm just gonna do. I'm gonna do the minimum I can, because I just don't agree with you.
Yeah. And it's really hard to find passive dissent, because the people who engage in it really only do it with people who agree. And in the larger organization going back to those people, those one on one relationships really create a moat between you and information that people don't want you to have.
(09:45):
What is? What does passive dependency look like.
Michael Walsh (09:50):
Well, here, pass them to. I'll wait for instructions and do exactly what's asked and no more.
That's literally passive dependency. It's like, I'll act like I'm you know. What do you need next? What do you need this or that? Whatever? But basically, what I'm doing is getting you to do my thinking for me.
And so I show up like I'm doing a really good job. But I'm not. I'm not prepared to use my own independent thought.
(10:12):
Now think about this for a second. If you're in an expertise driven
services company, you need people's expertise at the table, and you need a hunger to learn and grow, and you need a willing that there's a whole bunch of things that you need, and we'll get into those a little bit later. But but I gotta tell you without that this doesn't work.
Govindh Jayaraman (10:31):
No.
Michael Walsh (10:31):
So. So that's that's what I mean by that.
Govindh Jayaraman (10:34):
And really nobody. Okay. You're not hiring people to come into your organization
to waste their time and waste yours. So you're you're out there doing your best. You're trying to get the right people in the organization. You're trying to bring the right people in. You're working hard at it.
Passive dependency is really tough because you've got their bodies, but nothing inside. They're checked out. They're just doing what you said to do. And that's a tough thing to be paying
(11:06):
experts.
Michael Walsh (11:08):
Part of that, though, is that. See part of that. You may have the right person, and you may turn them into somebody who's passively dependent, and we'll get that. Get to that in a future napkin. But you know, because sometimes you actually do find somebody who would be really great. But you fumble the ball on, how do you? How you interact with them? And as a result they they turn to go passively dependent.
Govindh Jayaraman (11:29):
Yeah.
Michael Walsh (11:30):
Or they might be. You know, again, they might just give you the minimum effort, or whatever. But they're acting like they're working really hard, I mean, both of those are now being referred to these days as quiet quitting, which is really just employee disengagement with a new title on it.
Govindh Jayaraman (11:44):
Because people had quietly quit the previous term that we gave to it, which was just very engaged.
So so let's talk about these 6 key attributes. Because I think what happens is if we are focused on this 6, on these attributes.
We are, you know, hiring right, which is half the game. So.
Michael Walsh (12:06):
Now, before we get into that, can I add one more piece.
Govindh Jayaraman (12:08):
Absolutely.
Michael Walsh (12:09):
Okay. So if you want to get the people
that you really want, okay, there's 3 things you need to do.
Okay, the 1st thing is to raise your standards.
and I'll I'll talk about that in a sec. The second thing is to get clear on what you want, and that's where the 6 attributes come in, and then the 3rd one is to get to know them before you actually hire them. And that sounds duh obvious. But there's a way to get to know people that people don't realize. Okay, so before we get into those 6 things, what I wanted to do is just speak briefly on this notion of raising your standards.
(12:43):
Is that does that work for you?
Govindh Jayaraman (12:44):
Yeah, let's do it.
Michael Walsh (12:45):
Okay? Good. So when I talk about raising your standards, what would happen, Govind, if I only hired people that were potential partners or close allies.
So I'm not hiring a person to do a job. I mean, I need. I need a new receptionist. So it's like, well, I'm not gonna offer a partnership position to my receptionist. Great! Don't hire somebody that doesn't have the potential to be that.
(13:07):
In other words, unless I would actually see them growing into a partner, or absolutely a close ally, you know, just as trusted as as a potential partner would be. They don't get in my doors.
That's a higher standard. It's not. They're fine to do the job, and if I see somebody who's fine to do the job, but I know I'd never bring them in as a partner. The truth is in a gut. Feel you'll know. So if you wouldn't. If you wouldn't actually see a potential partnership path for them. They don't get in your doors. Now, does that mean that everybody gets in your doors? Gets to be a potential partner? No use that as a standard when you're hiring people.
(13:41):
and if I don't have either a potential partner or a close ally, because guess what everybody in the company could be a close ally, whether whether or not I literally offer them a partnership. But you just they don't get in the door unless you do that. So what happens is, if I'm looking for a potential partner.
I look differently and in different places than if I was just looking for somebody to fill a role.
(14:02):
And they're like, yeah. But I need to hire 100 people great. So use strategies that actually get you access from a recruiting point of view to whatever the you know, the 100 potential candidates, or 200 potential, however many. You need to actually get that. But then every single person's you know. What could this person be a potential partner.
I need to know that, because if I don't bring that standard to the table, I'm not going to get what I want from my expertise. Driven service based company like it's based on the people. So what what if I don't bring that standard to the table? What I'm saying is, well, you know, I know I'm supposed to give customer value, but well, you know, this person's close enough, and they'll get some value. Can you smell the master.
Govindh Jayaraman (14:44):
Yeah, yeah.
Michael Walsh (14:44):
So literally. You do that, and or I can do it. No, they're all about the customer, but there's no profit for me, because they don't know how to. They don't even think that way. They're just all about, you know, doing good for others. And there's, you know, they just have no interest in actually protecting the company as well. So using that standard changes where you look and how you look. And that's critical.
Govindh Jayaraman (15:07):
It.
you know it sounds simple, and and somewhere out there somebody saying, I need a cashier. What are you talking about, Michael? What are you talking about? I need someone who's gonna
come in at, you know?
4 to midnight on and and ring through sales.
(15:29):
What are you talking about? A potential partner.
Michael Walsh (15:31):
Perfect. So let's let's deal with. Let's say I'm looking at high school students.
Govindh Jayaraman (15:36):
Right.
Michael Walsh (15:36):
And and I'm dealing with high school students that have enough flexibility in their schedule that they could do that for the midnight shift. A couple of days a week, or they, you know, they might cover up some of my weekends or something like that.
There's the people that hang out at the Mall, and then there's the people that babysit
which one would you call a potential partner.
Govindh Jayaraman (15:54):
People who babysit.
Michael Walsh (15:56):
Right. In other words, I'm the types.
Govindh Jayaraman (15:58):
The ones who are taking responsibility right like. That's what we're talking.
Michael Walsh (16:01):
But they're also focused on others, not just themselves.
Govindh Jayaraman (16:05):
Right.
Michael Walsh (16:05):
You know, if I don't see volunteer experience, I could either see formal volunteer experience, or I could see informal volunteer experience. You know a young man that's always helping his brother on things, or whoever like the bottom line is people that are interested in contributing to others rather than people that that are just about themselves. People on group sports teams
(16:30):
and that have been there long enough and are are successful enough that they're not the star of the team, but they know the importance of the contributions of each person for the success of a team.
You know people that have gone through Boy Scouts or Girl Scouts, or something where I know that they've actually been taught. It's about giving to others, not just about themselves. Because, remember, we all have a biological need to survive. But we also have this innate desire to thrive. I want somebody who's got at least a little bit of muscle on the thrive thing, because thriving is always about somebody else surviving is also about me or us. How do we protect ourselves?
(17:02):
If I've got somebody who talks to me in game, but they've never actually had experience of actually contributing to others in meaningful ways. Chances are that's exactly what I'm going to get at my work. So which person would you have as your cashier.
Govindh Jayaraman (17:14):
Yeah. One who wants to thrive.
Michael Walsh (17:16):
And you can look at that now. Does that mean that they have to be, you know, 42 years old, and become ready to be a partner. No. 16 year old kid can pass muster for that role.
Does that make sense.
Govindh Jayaraman (17:28):
But yeah, but what you're doing is wondering actively
by. And and I like this raising your standards. But you're wondering actively about whether or not, that person's on path A or path, B and path A is.
thrive, adapt and and path B. Is just making it through the day, looking for beer money.
(17:54):
And we we look, we know that we we know which one we'd rather have.
Michael Walsh (17:59):
Right we want.
They just want to pay them. But they're good people. There's nothing wrong with them. It's just that that's not the standard I have when I've got an expertise driven organization.
Govindh Jayaraman (18:09):
Yeah.
Michael Walsh (18:09):
Because it's the expertise that needs to grow. And if people aren't willing to grow, it's not. And if you're not interested in investing in yourself for the benefit of others. I'm not going to get what I want in terms of the value proposition for my customer, or it's going to be at the expense of myself, my profit, or it's going to be a lot harder to give them the professional growth that they want, which are the now the 3 factors that we're looking at.
Govindh Jayaraman (18:34):
Yeah. And I. Still, you know, when you say expertise based. And I know what we're really talking about expertise based businesses. But there is nobody who walks into a store or an establishment, whether, even if it's a restaurant
that isn't looking for some information about the products and services that they're acquiring. And and and you know, I mean, I was at a restaurant the other day. I ordered this salad that didn't really look spectacular on the menu, and I said something about it, and the server lit up, and she said, That's my favorite thing on the menu. It is so good it is filling. I never get through it.
(19:13):
But it is so good you're gonna love this
that's different than I don't know.
Michael Walsh (19:21):
Well, it's interesting. You mentioned that because my wife and I go to dinner for a bit, and one of the things she will do, especially when we're in a new place, is she'll talk to the the server, and she'll ask him or her
what's your favorite?
And she watches for their reaction when they share it. It's not what the the item is. It's who delivers the item, and that now she knows she's in the right place, or she just finds something. And she figures, okay, this is a 1 time trip. And sure enough, when she knows it's a 1 time trip.
(19:48):
it turns. It's like, yeah, lunch. Bagel let down right? I mean. So so you know, you're in a situation. But when she sees somebody act she's like, Oh, I'm in the right place.
Govindh Jayaraman (19:59):
Is going to be.
Michael Walsh (19:59):
They're committed to their stuff. That means that this is probably going to be a great experience for us. And she just she. It shifts like it's fascinating to watch, and it's brilliant on her part.
Govindh Jayaraman (20:09):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, no. I agree. Okay, so that was so raising your standards, getting clear on what you want
is the attributes. Right?
Michael Walsh (20:21):
Yeah. And and the and the thing that is so. So the one thing I'm gonna say is, when when we're talking about raising the standards, you know, you really do want to change your approach. You want to set up for a higher caliber person, but you also have to be patient while being optimistic.
So yes, you may not be finding the person that you want, and stay with it and be optimistic that the right person is there. I promise you the patience combined with optimism will get you there, and the 3rd part is to trust the process. Now, one of the things that we'll be, we'll be launching for people. And by the time this this this series is available we'll actually have a full
(21:00):
hiring process available for people on how to actually do this. So there will be a link in whatever it is, where we set this up and make it available to people. There will be a link by the time we get there. It's not ready yet, but the but the link will actually give people access to the whole hiring protocol that we use when we're working with our clients. And they could. It'll. It'll be basically done similar to a paint by numbers. You can actually just follow the process and and get what you need as far as that's concerned. So so you know, when I say, trust the process.
(21:28):
we'll give you a process as far as
because hiring literally is half the game.
You know.
Govindh Jayaraman (21:36):
Absolutely.
Michael Walsh (21:37):
I'm finally ready to talk about those 6 things.
Govindh Jayaraman (21:40):
That's right, that's great. It's good to know. So so now that we're there, let's talk about this. So there's 6 key attributes to hiring right and number one.
and it's number one clear thinking. What do you mean by clear thinking.
Michael Walsh (21:58):
Hey? I'm in an expertise. Now remember this. I I keep saying, this is an expertise based business, and I agree with your comment that that you know, you want people. You want people thinking everywhere you go.
So I understand that. And I agree with that. And I'm still gonna pound on the expertise based business thing. So that's.
Govindh Jayaraman (22:15):
Yeah, I understand, and I'll keep on pulling you the other way.
Michael Walsh (22:18):
I. I have no problem with that, and we'll do the dance. So so here's the thing. If I'm if I've got a services based business. It's based on the expertise of our people.
I need muddled thinking is, gonna get in the way.
And you can tell whether somebody's a clear thinker, or whether they're a muddled thinker just by the nature of the questions that you ask them. But I need, if I actively listen for that. There's 2 or 3 simple things you can do to help find that
(22:45):
and it and
But if you don't know to look for it, you can end up with somebody whose thinking is just muddled. And and it's just it's just not like literally, they could be a wonderful person. They might have a good memory, and as a result they remember certain things and pass muster an initial interview. But you're going to have a problem with these people because they can't grow, and and there's always a chip missing
(23:08):
like you don't, just because somebody applies to work with you doesn't mean you have to take them. You don't have to take everybody that applies. You do want to pick the right people for your organization. I know some people that are brilliant when it comes to mechanical things, but conceptually they're not very strong. I know people who are conceptually incredible, but they're crappy at the mechanical side. So depending on, you know, if I'm dealing with a skill.
(23:32):
A skill trade is based in expertise as well, but mechanical aptitude as part of that skill. Trade may be a form of the expertise, whereas in a consulting or in a in an engineering, or if there's a lot of, there's a lot of consulting based services where it's the thinking whether it's architecture, engineering, healthcare, like a number of different things where it's not the mechanical piece. It's actually the conceptual thought that that matters. Then then that's the part of it I want. But I need to see somebody who can think their way clearly through it.
(24:02):
Okay?
Because without that roadblocks.
Govindh Jayaraman (24:06):
But what would you say, though, like, I mean somewhere out there, if somebody's saying, Hey, nice thought, okay, Michael. But interviews are tough places, and sometimes people don't do well with them. Real clear thinkers can stumble in interviews. How do you understand these attributes in an interview environment.
Michael Walsh (24:25):
Well.
a very easy way to tell whether I've got a clear thinker is. Give them an assignment, tell them to present it, and just see how organized they are.
But yeah, so a lot of people, they'll give somebody an assignment. They'll ask them to do something in an interview.
Govindh Jayaraman (24:39):
And they're not.
Michael Walsh (24:39):
Looking for whether they get the right answer.
I'm looking for
their thought process and getting the right answer. I'll give you an example. One of the clients that we worked with was dealing with. There were computer guys.
okay. So they had men and women who would actually go out there and be the, you know, gender, neutral computer person for this for this for the company. The problem is, if you send a computer person out to somebody's company, and they've got 75 staff, and they've got, you know, a hundred different machines. And you know they got the peripherals and the printers and all the other stuff as well as the servers, and that
(25:14):
invariably computer technicians take longer than everybody expects.
just because there's it's way more complex than the initial issue or concern was presented. Okay, so they find that that you know this one, what looks like a small problem is really 4 problems that led to the one problem, not working.
(25:35):
Now that it's 1 thing, if that's the case, it's a whole different thing. If the person just can't think their way through the server and and the and the things. So one of the elements we had was we had one of the partners would actually pay for an individual to come in on a Saturday morning they got the agreement of of one of their clients, was a mortgage company, said, You know you know how to block off things to protect our information. So there's no private information being shared. But yes, you can use our
(26:00):
network. You know the the sterile parts of our network to actually test the person. Then what they do is they put certain things in the in the the log, and they'd make them do certain things, and literally they're paying them for this exercise.
and they just watch and see how the person navigates their way through.
Are they navigating their way through in a very clear, organized way, or are they jumping all over the place, and really not very organized with it, you know. Literally they could tell within that 4 h time slot exactly. You know who they had and whether they wanted the person or not. As far as that's concerned, I've seen other people that actually say, here's a design. What are the 5 different flaws in it, or show me how you how you'd actually assess whether this system can work.
(26:42):
whether it's an electrical system or an Hvac system, or whether it's architectural something. Or you know, how would you do a differential diagnostic on something? I mean, in each different industry there's different ways of doing that. And so, just by doing a simple exercise, it gets pretty obvious fairly quickly, if you know to look for it. That's why putting it down is half the battle.
Govindh Jayaraman (27:02):
Love it.
love it, and I love. We always do this. We always, always, always do some sort of evaluation or assignment
in every role, and it makes such a big difference. We give people the time to do it. And sometimes it's it's homework. Other times it's right there, solve a problem. We don't care whether the answer is right or not. We don't tell them that. Of course I sort of am right now, but regardless. We don't tell them whether or not the answer is unimportant. It's the thinking, how are they thinking, and how are they presenting it? And that goes to number 2? I mean. I think those 2 go together right hunger to learn.
Michael Walsh (27:36):
Yep, yeah. Voracious hunger to learn and grow. It's like, it's like, there's people
that really want to learn. And then there's people that say they want to learn and are busy wanting to show you how smart they are.
Okay, the people who want to learn tend to do better with
feedback. That includes something that needs to be corrected.
(28:00):
They're also.
Govindh Jayaraman (28:01):
Feedback is the essential pillar to learning.
Right? I mean, if learning doesn't exist without feedback, you need feedback, and people who are hungry to learn want feedback.
Michael Walsh (28:12):
Well, okay. So I'm I'm gonna disagree with you on that.
Govindh Jayaraman (28:16):
Okay.
Michael Walsh (28:17):
Nobody wants feedback. People want it.
Govindh Jayaraman (28:19):
No, no, no, no.
Michael Walsh (28:20):
We don't want, really. Nobody likes it that they're open to it. There's a.
Govindh Jayaraman (28:24):
Yeah, no, but but but learning doesn't exist without feedback.
Michael Walsh (28:27):
I totally agree. Unless you learn. You see how you did. You can't tell. There's a reason why you score in a basketball game, you know the score is too high, I mean, I can tell in a hockey game. One. Nothing. I counted good. It was 2, 1. i can keep track. 89 to 78.
Sorry I'm watching the game. I can't keep track with how many twos and how many threes and how many single, you know. So yes, tracking is there, and the feedback is important. But but I'm more interested in the person that that
(28:58):
everybody will say they want to learn everybody. So if you ask them what if they want to learn, they'll say it.
You know you could actually get clear on this very quickly. It's like, well.
tell me the last thing you learned, and how did you learn it? And and what is it that you're actively looking at right now? And the people that really aren't that interested in learning will fumble on the question, and you'll get some sort of generic thing where somebody who's actually really hungry to learn. They'll tell you very specifically what they're doing, and you can like, it is so easy to tell what's real versus what's claimed, because everybody will claim to want to learn and grow. Everybody will like. I've yet to find one single person who no, I'm not interested in that.
(29:35):
Seriously.
Govindh Jayaraman (29:37):
Yeah.
Michael Walsh (29:37):
That doesn't mean that they are. So. The key is, you just have to go one step past it, and it gets obvious fairly quickly. The key is that there's so much that they're trying to do. And I'm trying to get the right person. And they seem to have the right skills. And boy, did they do a good job in their last in their last employment? But you know, so I'll accept their answer that they're hungry to learn and grow, and I won't bother to test it. That's where people make the mistake is they take one step too short, as opposed to going one step beyond and actually really finding out.
Govindh Jayaraman (30:03):
Yeah. And it's the same thing with clear thinking. You test the clear thinking, you test the hunger to learn and and look.
this 3rd one is a big one for me.
Curiosity, right? A curious mind. Again it falls in sequence, a clear thinking hunger to learn a curious mind.
That's the 3rd attribute, how do we test that.
Michael Walsh (30:26):
Just ask them, you know, how did you? How did you? How did you get into that last job?
What was it that really intrigued you.
And what is it about this job that that catches your attention?
And and
What are some of the things that that you know? I don't know just what are some of the things that really, you're interested in exploring?
(30:48):
And again, I'll either get vague answers or I'll get specific answers.
Okay, do you use AI?
I mean, we're seeing and hearing so much about AI. Somebody completely just ignores it.
There's either there could be a lack of curiosity there, or it could just be that they're not lined up with their particular profession or trade, and you'll find that there's less curiosity about AI in some of the trades, even though I'm dealing with a lot of expertise in the trades, so I wouldn't necessarily ask that there. But in some of the professions. I might ask it because I got to tell you these days it's almost shoved down our throats, if not, at least checking it out or paying attention. There's no curiosity there, or you're so overwhelmed with something else. So.
Govindh Jayaraman (31:31):
And couldn't you even just say, Hey, do you have any questions for me? A curious mind has questions for you. Right? That's a very simple test in that environment. And here's the habit that I think everybody should be hearing about these attributes. And I want to make sure I'm following this properly, Michael, you're saying
the attributes. One thing don't just say, Hey, are you a clear thinker?
(31:55):
You test it.
Michael Walsh (31:56):
Were you.
Govindh Jayaraman (31:56):
Are you hungry to learn.
Michael Walsh (31:57):
Everybody's a clear thinker. So what does that mean? They don't know that they're clear thinking they don't. The clearest thinkers might actually give you a false negative. Well, you know I was. I was confused about something the other day. Well, that's because they're way more self aware. So I might get false positives and false negatives on it. So.
Govindh Jayaraman (32:13):
Not about the question. It's about the test. Yeah.
So here's.
Michael Walsh (32:18):
Even with Number 3. This is the exception of that. I if I if I'm not getting anything or I can't get it. What are you curious about right now?
What are some of the things that sort of catch your attention.
Govindh Jayaraman (32:30):
Yeah.
Michael Walsh (32:31):
And I'll get somebody that either goes. I don't know, or I'll go. You know, one of the things that I'm really curious about is, and it's whatever. And then, next thing you know, you're into a subject that sort of like somebody up or ask them, what is it that you're passionate about what you know. What are you really interested in with these days? And what is it about that that interests you? And then you're listening for? Is somebody again trying to show how smart they are? Or is somebody really engaging in something that really has their attention?
(32:58):
Because curious people are curious about lots.
Govindh Jayaraman (33:01):
And really curious people will ask you what you think about it when they're talking about it.
Michael Walsh (33:09):
Totally.
Govindh Jayaraman (33:09):
Isn't this interesting? Blah blah blah! What do you think
and is like? I don't know anything about that, you know, whatever. But really curious people
will ask you what you think about something that's got them perplexed or interested, engaged or otherwise.
Michael Walsh (33:26):
Which which get which speaks to the underlying issue we're playing with here because there's the actual content of the subject matter, and that's where most people play. Is that the content of what we're talking about?
What's way more interesting is the underlying dynamics on that lie beneath that content. So curiosity is an is a perfect example of an underlying dynamic or or access to. You know, I mean, we're process consultants. Okay in our firm. And so we look at what processes give people access. Well.
(33:58):
the contents, the content.
Curiosity is is a process type. Thinking. You know, it's a process type thing. A clear mind is is a requirement to do that. So I watch for the curious mind rather than just the content. Now you can get carried away with the content, because what you're talking about is so interesting. But what I want you to do is just to stop and look and say, Well, how curious were they when they talked about that, or were they busy trying to give me the right answer?
(34:24):
As long as you ask yourself those questions it starts to get obvious. It's actually not that hard to see.
Govindh Jayaraman (34:31):
No, no, you're absolutely right. So number 4, clear thinking hunger to learn. Curious mind. Now we go to humble outlook. Yes, what does that mean?
Michael Walsh (34:40):
If I'm better than everybody else's, it's not gonna go. Well, the minute I'm in a team.
If I'm busy trying to prove to you how right I am. I'm gonna it's not. I'm not gonna do well as part of a team.
If I honestly believe that there's others that are just as good as me, or better, or people where I can learn from humility, you know, is one of the key attributes of of most the most powerful leaders.
(35:04):
you know, hubris gets in the way.
and so a humble outlook is the difference between an effective executive and a hired gun.
because mercenaries are great at what they do, and they know it, and they're better than others, and they know it. And how well do those people fit on your team where somebody could be really, really good. But they're always looking for how they can contribute to other people. They're always looking for what they can learn from other people, and and as a result they don't think they know everything, and you know it's again not hard to watch for now how humble are you. There's no way to answer that.
Govindh Jayaraman (35:43):
I don't know. There's a quantifier to that.
Michael Walsh (35:44):
Any valid answer to it, so I never asked that. I just listen. You know what's the biggest thing you what was the most surprising thing you learned this year, and from whom?
And you know, like, it's interesting when you dance with the whole conversation around learning
the there's lots of access to stuff like that. And you can tell, am I about me, or am I about we.
(36:08):
you know, and and somebody is more about weak? Is others centric as opposed to self centric, which is probably a bad way to say it. But you know what I mean.
Govindh Jayaraman (36:17):
Yeah, and and I. And I really think I really liked
what you said that humility is such a key to teamwork.
And I'm reminded by the the great.
There's a great, great, great, great interview with Kobe Bryant
and Kobe is on black entertainment television. They did this mastermind series where they. They brought these great
(36:41):
athletes and artists and people. And they do this sort of role modeling thing. When Bat came on and
the interview starts off
right out the gate interviewer starts off and says, I've interviewed thousands of people and they fall into one of 2 camps.
They're either afraid to lose or they have to win. Which one are you?
(37:03):
Kobe takes this long and says, neither, I'm just here to learn.
like I look at every moment as an opportunity to learn, because if I'm too afraid to lose, then I'm a slave to that emotion. If I'm if I have to win, I'm a slave to that emotion. I'm always living in some other time than right now.
but when I'm here I can be here to learn.
(37:27):
and every opportunity is an opportunity to learn.
and that that's where I need to be.
And when I'm there I'm great that that humility, that willingness to do the work and be present is really huge, and I think it really leads to Number 5. Right? You talked about it right out. Humility is the key to teamwork. Number 5 is commitment to contribute.
(37:49):
It's this, it's sort of like one leads to another right.
Michael Walsh (37:54):
If I'm not willing to contribute to others, I may be so caught up in my own survival that I'm not actually going to be useful on the team
if I'm interested in committing like, if I commit to contribute to other people, I'm you know what? Then? I'm useful on the team.
Because if I'm if I'm unwilling to to, really, because guess what? It's not gonna it. Teams are never equal.
Different people contribute at different levels at different times depending what the need is, and let's say you and I are on on a team together, and there's 2 other people. All 4 of us are there. You know what there may be one time when your expertise is needed a little bit more. There may be a different time when my expertise is need a little more might be another time when you and I, our collective expertise, actually carries the day, and it could be a different time when the other 2 their expertise. And and you don't. Nobody keeps track. You don't. You can't keep track, because if you keep track you go crazy.
(38:40):
So you need people that they just have a commitment to contribute.
And you again, you can read that. It's not hard to read.
Govindh Jayaraman (38:47):
And commitment to contribute is different than
a need to be heard or a need to. You know there, there's some people.
Michael Walsh (39:01):
Show how smart I am by saying how much I know out of some, out of some pretense of contribution.
Govindh Jayaraman (39:07):
Exactly, and there's so much of that out there will be. And we've all been in a meeting. We've all been in a situation where somebody just has to put in their 2 cents, just to make sure that everybody knows they're there, and everybody knows how important they are or how smart they are, or that they're in the room
right.
Michael Walsh (39:27):
Yeah. Sometimes a real contribution could just be quietly asking a question that allows the other person to
connect with their own skill.
you know, done behind the scenes, or something like that, like, or, you know, doing something that nobody notices, and they know nobody ever will. But it gets done because it's what needs to get done.
Govindh Jayaraman (39:49):
Yeah. And I think this really goes into also a commitment to contribute is is leads to this number 6, which is open to others contributions, because that's so important. There's so many quiet experts in an organization. And the organizations that elevate the quiet experts
really do well like really do well, so a commitment to contribute, but also being open to eliciting and and welcoming, making it easier for those quiet experts to speak
(40:20):
is really important.
Michael Walsh (40:23):
I find is a lot of times when people are committed to contributing to others. It's like the person that always wants to buy for other people, but they hate it when somebody buys for them.
Okay, what you find is that really buying for the for others, or contributing to others in whatever way is really called keeping ahead of the scorecard.
and if they contribute to me, it's now I may owe them something. So you find that this is one of those areas where you get hidden insecurities quite often, and sometimes I've got somebody that's ace on the other 5, and they may need to be supported or control, because if if they can't allow for the contributions of other people.
(41:01):
they're never going to grow.
Because the truth is together, we really are stronger, and and if we're not together we aren't. And so, if I need to be contributing. But I'm not allowing for anybody else to contribute to me then I'm not allowing for balance in the equation, or I'm not allowing for, for you know, for others to feel good about things as well, and it's fascinating how people get stuck in that.
(41:26):
you know. It it really is, an interesting phenomenon.
Govindh Jayaraman (41:32):
So so today, we've talked about raising your standards and getting clear on what you want.
And we've talked about the 6 key attributes clear thinking, hunger to learn, curious mind, humble outlook, commitment to contribute and open to others contributions. And the 3rd thing that's really important in this hiring smart dynamic is getting to know them first.st
Michael Walsh (41:59):
Yes, and the reason that you want to get, and you want to get to know them in depth, like.
here's the thing you need to get to know the whole person. One of the things that people do is they actually look for the skills, the job related skills and attributes first, st and they figure well, you know I got to understand what the character is for the person and all that stuff as well. We do the opposite.
(42:20):
We get to know the character of the person first, st and find out who they are and where they're going, and all that, and we see if there's a fit that way first, st
before we actually get into this skills. I mean, yeah, we'll check to make sure on the surface that we seem to have enough of the right skills. But I've seen too many times when people get really excited about the skills that somebody has or the experience that they've got specifically that would solve our problem. And then we call any behavioral issues they may have or character issues they may have as just idiosyncrasies and nobody's perfect. Everybody's got their own uniqueness in their personality.
(42:51):
Whereas if you actually look at the character of the individual first, st you mo, you may go. I don't care what their skills are. I don't know what their skills are yet, but there's no way I want that on my team.
Okay, let's say I find that I've got a mercenary even then then doesn't matter how good they are.
If I find somebody who's incredibly skilled, and they can actually generate results twice and 3 times more than everybody else.
(43:14):
and then later, I find out. Well, they seem to have these mercenary type attributes, but I'm so enamored with their skills, I actually overlook the other side, like, if I don't take the time to get to know somebody. I will bring people on my team that aren't quite a fit. And what I find is that 80% of the time when somebody has to be let go. It's character issue, not a skills issue.
(43:37):
I mean, every now and then there's a skills issue. People claim that they're better than they are, and somebody didn't check quite thoroughly enough. But most of the time it's because they couldn't work with the rest of the team.
Govindh Jayaraman (43:46):
Yeah.
Michael Walsh (43:47):
So if I don't take the time to get to know them and really understand what they're about, I will pay for that privilege.
Govindh Jayaraman (43:53):
So.
Michael Walsh (43:54):
Sure.
Govindh Jayaraman (43:55):
How do you do that?
What do you do?
Michael Walsh (43:58):
Well, the 1st thing I do is I literally look for character. First, st
okay. Second thing more senior. It is.
You know, what? Go to dinner with them, you know.
Govindh Jayaraman (44:08):
And invite, invite their partner, invite.
Michael Walsh (44:10):
Absolutely. And we do that we invite their partner. Bring my partner. And next thing you know, we actually we're talking about things or or go to something that's not necessarily straight business, and just get a sense of who they are
and and the the higher the rate, like, if you're hiring somebody the Vp level. There's no way you hire them without doing those types of things, because you really got to get a sense for people. I know one person that goes golfing with people now
(44:33):
time of year, and not everybody's good at golf. But I do. You know, when people are, it's amazing. You know there are certain sports where you will show who you are in that sport. I've seen people that play tennis with people because they heard they were good at tennis or whatever. And they, you know, I like. There's lots of different, and I'm not saying you have to go run out and do a sport with people. But but I got to tell you, when you sit with people over lunch or dinner, you'd be amazed at what you discover.
(44:57):
You know the other thing is, don't have it. Be one interview and and hire like actually take 2 or 3 interviews, especially if it's a larger, a larger mandate and because who shows up on the 3rd interview is who I'm interested in. That's who I actually will get. You know we had a young man that we were hiring. It was down in New Orleans.
(45:17):
Louisiana, and it was for intermediate accounting person for this staff accountant for this. For this company it was a healthcare based company. And the 1st interview he showed up in a 3 piece suit.
you know, young man, very professional, you know. Second time same 3 piece suit no tie, open collar, fine 3rd interview, jeans and a t-shirt.
(45:43):
and because he figured he had the job of these being invited back 3 times. So what we are very clear about is who we're going to get is the guy that shows up to the 3rd interview, not the first.st I've also seen situations where we in the 1st interview we meet with somebody, and they're, you know, they're very polished. Second interview, same, not only their personal mannerisms, but also you know how they conduct themselves. Address and all that stuff. 3rd interview, same thing.
(46:08):
And it's like, Okay, I see consistency here, and if you see it in 3 different venues at 3 different times, you're in a situation where you can start to see who you got.
So that's another aspect of getting. Know them. It's not, you know.
Govindh Jayaraman (46:20):
And it's not always level or downhill, right? Sometimes people grow.
Michael Walsh (46:25):
It better as you go. Oh, absolutely yeah. And that gets really interesting
because they might be hesitant about you. And as they get more relaxed with you. They let themselves show a little bit more because they feel more comfortable. And we actually did that when we were hiring a salesperson in Calgary for a design firm, and that person in the 1st meeting they were very stiff, and but there was enough that we saw that was like, okay, well, this is worth another. And I was with the owner when we were interviewing. This 1st and second meeting was was again, and this woman settled down, and
(46:54):
she was she was better. The 3rd meeting, the the owner suggested. We go to dinner, and so the 3 of us went to dinner, and in the 3rd meeting this person just blossomed.
and in fact, the owner hired her, and she was brilliant. She was absolutely brilliant for this team at that time in their career development, and everything worked out really well way better than they would have expected. And it was interesting because I was talking to the owner and the owner said, you know.
(47:18):
when we met them the 1st time, I really was wondering whether we should even have a second meeting.
and and I'm so glad we did.
Govindh Jayaraman (47:27):
Right.
Michael Walsh (47:27):
So they do go both ways.
Govindh Jayaraman (47:29):
Absolutely absolutely.
There's a lot here, but the most important part is hiring. Smart
is really important, and hiring right
is half of the game, and and this is a great framework for that. Thank you, Michael.
Michael Walsh (47:46):
Welcome!
Michael Walsh. Welcome back to paper napkin! Wisdom thrilled that you're back.
Michael Walsh (00:06):
Well, thanks for having me back.
Govindh Jayaraman (00:08):
Well, I love the series that we're doing, and for everybody listening. I want to give you a quick
rundown of where we are. This is now the 6th part in this series, and I'm not going to tell you how many pieces there are, because there are a lot. But the 6th part in the series, we started talking about the 4 danger zones. After talking about the 4 danger zones, we went on to talking about what really were the 4 danger zones, and they related to people, and how every time we add a person to our organization as we get bigger and bigger, it's an exponential increase in the number of one on one relationships and the complexity behind them.
(00:42):
When thinking about people, we talked about the 4 driving influences of human behavior survive, thrive, connect, and adapt, which led us to this idea, and this is a really profound one, that we have to rethink the core, rethinking the core, the old core of the business being results are driven by customer value and your profit and your people sort of feed those 2 things. But we have to rethink that that our results and our teams
(01:07):
build profit value. And most importantly, the professional and personal growth of our team themselves. So.
6th P. So to speak.
Then we talked about the Social Contract and how there's 2 sides of the Social Contract thinking about that dynamic one on the owner company side and second, for individual employees. On the owner, company side we had generate individual results, generate collective results, build a strong culture, make progress towards the Company's larger purpose on
(01:36):
the individual side, compensation, of course, professional training, growth.
access to meaningful work and access to develop meaningful relationships. And I think we take that number 4 for granted. We talked about that at length. In our last episode
today, all of this brings us to hiring smart for your expertise, based business and spoiler alert. Every business is an expertise based. Business doesn't matter what you think. You're selling expertise so and hiring
(02:08):
right is half the game.
What did you mean by that.
Michael Walsh (02:13):
Everybody works on. Well, how do I get my system sorted out? How do I make sure that my product is priced properly? You know all the different aspects of what it takes to grow and run a an effective business. And it's appropriate that they focus on all those things. But in any service based business, especially a service based business that actually relies on the expertise or growing expertise of the people. Literally, half of your success will be a function directly of who you get in the door.
(02:42):
and the other is what you do once you got them in the door. But I gotta tell you until you get them in the door like you get the wrong people in the door. I don't care how good you are. I don't care how friendly they are with each other. If I'm building an orchestra, and the people are really friendly, and they're nice, and their hearts in the right spot, and they just can't
perform like they don't know how to use their instruments. You know the the musical instruments. You're in a situation where you're not gonna have a very good orchestra.
(03:07):
You need the skills and talents of your people, but you also need them to be able to work with each other, because if I get incredibly talented people, but they're all fighting with each other. I'm still gonna have a mess on my hands. You need the right people in the room.
literally half the game.
Govindh Jayaraman (03:23):
Nobody. And we talked about this before we started today. Nobody goes out there thinking they're hiring badly.
I think I think everybody thinks that they're doing the best they can. So so somebody out there there's somebody's listening going.
Michael Govin. I'm doing the best I can. I'm getting the best I can, but I'm still.
(03:44):
I don't feel like I don't think I think very few people feel like they're nailing this piece
right? Very few people think they're nailing this piece consistently and at the same time everybody's conscious of it. So why is this so hard.
Michael Walsh (03:58):
Well, great question. I mean, the thing that I'm finding is that
it's probably the biggest frustration people have that I hear from business owners. They can't find the right people for the roles that they want. You know that they want to. I need somebody at this level, not way higher. That cost me too much, not way lower, that I need to grow them into it, because I don't have the time to grow them in. I just can't find. Great people are really hard to find. In fact, I'll even pay the premium. But I can't find the people that are great.
(04:22):
Probably one of the most common things like you said nobody says I think I'll get like, you know, people that are not that good, and I'll just pay them less, and like goes, no, it's called. I get the best that I can afford.
Okay? And and so basically, there's 2 reasons why they run into that.
Okay, the 1st one is that they don't aim high enough. Okay? 2 fundamental reasons. This is the 1st one. They're not aiming high enough. And the second one is saying yes to somebody out of desperation, even though you know they're not a great fit, or you're hoping they are a great fit, and you choose to ignore the telltale signs
(04:57):
so that you know maybe I'm wrong, you know, and and it's fascinating to see you know what's there, because it's less see attracting the right fit persons less about who's available.
and more about your perspective on both recruiting and selection of your people.
Govindh Jayaraman (05:18):
I think that's really really important. And how how much of this also relates to what
I think that there are people, what I've I've observed their organizations, and I've said, Man.
they really hire. Well.
but then you get in closer, and it's like, Oh, maybe it's not so good. Maybe it's not, and you talk to their CEO. And I've talked to their CEO after watching them from the outside. And it's like, No, no, we're always struggling with it. This is something that is an always thing. It's never owned right. It's something you have to do every day. You have to do right every day, and I think focusing on your 6 key attributes is a pathway
(06:02):
to reset aiming high enough or aiming right for the right roles right.
Michael Walsh (06:07):
Absolutely. And and because if you don't do that, you see, one of the biggest things is, if I settle for somebody who's not quite the best fit.
The costs are large. I'll I'll talk with. Well, you know they're good enough for now, and I listen. There's just no better out there I like. I don't know how to find somebody that's better. That's out there, you know. So I have to deal with what I've got, and as a result. What you've got is you get uneven performance. And sometimes, you know, either active or passive descent. Okay, you'll get things like bare minimum effort. Okay? And
(06:41):
passive dependency is another thing that can show up. So there's like, there's a number of different aspects of what's happening. It's interesting, because in in some places right now. One of the things that I'm noticing is like there's 1 woman who owns a firm that actually helps fund businesses in the Us.
And she. She needs people in the office 3 days a week, and she's fine work from home for a couple of days a week, as far as that's concerned. So she's looking for a hybrid arrangement, and she's getting people that say, yep, yep, no problem. You know, I can do that. No problem. And now, what's happening is that she hires people. There's always an excuse, and what she's got is people that are coming in maximum one day a week. And frankly, it's just not working
(07:23):
like the nature of the teamwork that they have in their office. They need to be connected at least 3 of those days, and and it doesn't work, and she's she's pulling her hair out. She's like, yeah. But I asked them, and they say, yes. And then then what's happening is, they're they're just not. And and I don't know what to do with that. It's like she's not alone. I'm seeing this a lot. That's just one example, you know, or hiring somebody hoping that they can grow into the role.
(07:49):
you know, or hiring somebody that seems to be really good at the role. But they're not as good with people.
And so so what you find is that you almost get mercenaries in there. They'll, you know. I'll do this, and I'll do that, and you know. But but don't ask me to work with these people here, or that people there, or follow your instructions, because I'm going to do this my way. As far as that's concerned, it's it's interesting, because sometimes you have the the pendulum swinging in on behalf of the the employer, and sometimes the pendulum swings on behalf of the employee. Now.
(08:20):
even to think in those terms
is based in an Us. Them, so
that thinking by itself is actually part of the problem.
you know. And so the key is, I have to change my thinking as far as that's concerned.
Govindh Jayaraman (08:38):
And this is where rethinking the core comes in so much. I don't want to pass by 2 things that you said that won't be common terminology to a lot of people, you said active and passive dissent. Now we can understand active descent. It's.
you know, the proverbial telling you where to go. But what's passive dissent.
Michael Walsh (08:58):
When I say absolutely everything's fine your face
and I'll bitch about you to my my neighbors behind your back.
you know, cause I'll only I'm smart enough to only say to other people who feel similar to me.
but but I gotta tell you it's fascinating to see what's done to your face, and what's what's said behind your back.
Govindh Jayaraman (09:18):
I may not even say anything to anybody. I'm just gonna do. I'm gonna do the minimum I can, because I just don't agree with you.
Yeah. And it's really hard to find passive dissent, because the people who engage in it really only do it with people who agree. And in the larger organization going back to those people, those one on one relationships really create a moat between you and information that people don't want you to have.
(09:45):
What is? What does passive dependency look like.
Michael Walsh (09:50):
Well, here, pass them to. I'll wait for instructions and do exactly what's asked and no more.
That's literally passive dependency. It's like, I'll act like I'm you know. What do you need next? What do you need this or that? Whatever? But basically, what I'm doing is getting you to do my thinking for me.
And so I show up like I'm doing a really good job. But I'm not. I'm not prepared to use my own independent thought.
(10:12):
Now think about this for a second. If you're in an expertise driven
services company, you need people's expertise at the table, and you need a hunger to learn and grow, and you need a willing that there's a whole bunch of things that you need, and we'll get into those a little bit later. But but I gotta tell you without that this doesn't work.
Govindh Jayaraman (10:31):
No.
Michael Walsh (10:31):
So. So that's that's what I mean by that.
Govindh Jayaraman (10:34):
And really nobody. Okay. You're not hiring people to come into your organization
to waste their time and waste yours. So you're you're out there doing your best. You're trying to get the right people in the organization. You're trying to bring the right people in. You're working hard at it.
Passive dependency is really tough because you've got their bodies, but nothing inside. They're checked out. They're just doing what you said to do. And that's a tough thing to be paying
(11:06):
experts.
Michael Walsh (11:08):
Part of that, though, is that. See part of that. You may have the right person, and you may turn them into somebody who's passively dependent, and we'll get that. Get to that in a future napkin. But you know, because sometimes you actually do find somebody who would be really great. But you fumble the ball on, how do you? How you interact with them? And as a result they they turn to go passively dependent.
Govindh Jayaraman (11:29):
Yeah.
Michael Walsh (11:30):
Or they might be. You know, again, they might just give you the minimum effort, or whatever. But they're acting like they're working really hard, I mean, both of those are now being referred to these days as quiet quitting, which is really just employee disengagement with a new title on it.
Govindh Jayaraman (11:44):
Because people had quietly quit the previous term that we gave to it, which was just very engaged.
So so let's talk about these 6 key attributes. Because I think what happens is if we are focused on this 6, on these attributes.
We are, you know, hiring right, which is half the game. So.
Michael Walsh (12:06):
Now, before we get into that, can I add one more piece.
Govindh Jayaraman (12:08):
Absolutely.
Michael Walsh (12:09):
Okay. So if you want to get the people
that you really want, okay, there's 3 things you need to do.
Okay, the 1st thing is to raise your standards.
and I'll I'll talk about that in a sec. The second thing is to get clear on what you want, and that's where the 6 attributes come in, and then the 3rd one is to get to know them before you actually hire them. And that sounds duh obvious. But there's a way to get to know people that people don't realize. Okay, so before we get into those 6 things, what I wanted to do is just speak briefly on this notion of raising your standards.
(12:43):
Is that does that work for you?
Govindh Jayaraman (12:44):
Yeah, let's do it.
Michael Walsh (12:45):
Okay? Good. So when I talk about raising your standards, what would happen, Govind, if I only hired people that were potential partners or close allies.
So I'm not hiring a person to do a job. I mean, I need. I need a new receptionist. So it's like, well, I'm not gonna offer a partnership position to my receptionist. Great! Don't hire somebody that doesn't have the potential to be that.
(13:07):
In other words, unless I would actually see them growing into a partner, or absolutely a close ally, you know, just as trusted as as a potential partner would be. They don't get in my doors.
That's a higher standard. It's not. They're fine to do the job, and if I see somebody who's fine to do the job, but I know I'd never bring them in as a partner. The truth is in a gut. Feel you'll know. So if you wouldn't. If you wouldn't actually see a potential partnership path for them. They don't get in your doors. Now, does that mean that everybody gets in your doors? Gets to be a potential partner? No use that as a standard when you're hiring people.
(13:41):
and if I don't have either a potential partner or a close ally, because guess what everybody in the company could be a close ally, whether whether or not I literally offer them a partnership. But you just they don't get in the door unless you do that. So what happens is, if I'm looking for a potential partner.
I look differently and in different places than if I was just looking for somebody to fill a role.
(14:02):
And they're like, yeah. But I need to hire 100 people great. So use strategies that actually get you access from a recruiting point of view to whatever the you know, the 100 potential candidates, or 200 potential, however many. You need to actually get that. But then every single person's you know. What could this person be a potential partner.
I need to know that, because if I don't bring that standard to the table, I'm not going to get what I want from my expertise. Driven service based company like it's based on the people. So what what if I don't bring that standard to the table? What I'm saying is, well, you know, I know I'm supposed to give customer value, but well, you know, this person's close enough, and they'll get some value. Can you smell the master.
Govindh Jayaraman (14:44):
Yeah, yeah.
Michael Walsh (14:44):
So literally. You do that, and or I can do it. No, they're all about the customer, but there's no profit for me, because they don't know how to. They don't even think that way. They're just all about, you know, doing good for others. And there's, you know, they just have no interest in actually protecting the company as well. So using that standard changes where you look and how you look. And that's critical.
Govindh Jayaraman (15:07):
It.
you know it sounds simple, and and somewhere out there somebody saying, I need a cashier. What are you talking about, Michael? What are you talking about? I need someone who's gonna
come in at, you know?
4 to midnight on and and ring through sales.
(15:29):
What are you talking about? A potential partner.
Michael Walsh (15:31):
Perfect. So let's let's deal with. Let's say I'm looking at high school students.
Govindh Jayaraman (15:36):
Right.
Michael Walsh (15:36):
And and I'm dealing with high school students that have enough flexibility in their schedule that they could do that for the midnight shift. A couple of days a week, or they, you know, they might cover up some of my weekends or something like that.
There's the people that hang out at the Mall, and then there's the people that babysit
which one would you call a potential partner.
Govindh Jayaraman (15:54):
People who babysit.
Michael Walsh (15:56):
Right. In other words, I'm the types.
Govindh Jayaraman (15:58):
The ones who are taking responsibility right like. That's what we're talking.
Michael Walsh (16:01):
But they're also focused on others, not just themselves.
Govindh Jayaraman (16:05):
Right.
Michael Walsh (16:05):
You know, if I don't see volunteer experience, I could either see formal volunteer experience, or I could see informal volunteer experience. You know a young man that's always helping his brother on things, or whoever like the bottom line is people that are interested in contributing to others rather than people that that are just about themselves. People on group sports teams
(16:30):
and that have been there long enough and are are successful enough that they're not the star of the team, but they know the importance of the contributions of each person for the success of a team.
You know people that have gone through Boy Scouts or Girl Scouts, or something where I know that they've actually been taught. It's about giving to others, not just about themselves. Because, remember, we all have a biological need to survive. But we also have this innate desire to thrive. I want somebody who's got at least a little bit of muscle on the thrive thing, because thriving is always about somebody else surviving is also about me or us. How do we protect ourselves?
(17:02):
If I've got somebody who talks to me in game, but they've never actually had experience of actually contributing to others in meaningful ways. Chances are that's exactly what I'm going to get at my work. So which person would you have as your cashier.
Govindh Jayaraman (17:14):
Yeah. One who wants to thrive.
Michael Walsh (17:16):
And you can look at that now. Does that mean that they have to be, you know, 42 years old, and become ready to be a partner. No. 16 year old kid can pass muster for that role.
Does that make sense.
Govindh Jayaraman (17:28):
But yeah, but what you're doing is wondering actively
by. And and I like this raising your standards. But you're wondering actively about whether or not, that person's on path A or path, B and path A is.
thrive, adapt and and path B. Is just making it through the day, looking for beer money.
(17:54):
And we we look, we know that we we know which one we'd rather have.
Michael Walsh (17:59):
Right we want.
They just want to pay them. But they're good people. There's nothing wrong with them. It's just that that's not the standard I have when I've got an expertise driven organization.
Govindh Jayaraman (18:09):
Yeah.
Michael Walsh (18:09):
Because it's the expertise that needs to grow. And if people aren't willing to grow, it's not. And if you're not interested in investing in yourself for the benefit of others. I'm not going to get what I want in terms of the value proposition for my customer, or it's going to be at the expense of myself, my profit, or it's going to be a lot harder to give them the professional growth that they want, which are the now the 3 factors that we're looking at.
Govindh Jayaraman (18:34):
Yeah. And I. Still, you know, when you say expertise based. And I know what we're really talking about expertise based businesses. But there is nobody who walks into a store or an establishment, whether, even if it's a restaurant
that isn't looking for some information about the products and services that they're acquiring. And and and you know, I mean, I was at a restaurant the other day. I ordered this salad that didn't really look spectacular on the menu, and I said something about it, and the server lit up, and she said, That's my favorite thing on the menu. It is so good it is filling. I never get through it.
(19:13):
But it is so good you're gonna love this
that's different than I don't know.
Michael Walsh (19:21):
Well, it's interesting. You mentioned that because my wife and I go to dinner for a bit, and one of the things she will do, especially when we're in a new place, is she'll talk to the the server, and she'll ask him or her
what's your favorite?
And she watches for their reaction when they share it. It's not what the the item is. It's who delivers the item, and that now she knows she's in the right place, or she just finds something. And she figures, okay, this is a 1 time trip. And sure enough, when she knows it's a 1 time trip.
(19:48):
it turns. It's like, yeah, lunch. Bagel let down right? I mean. So so you know, you're in a situation. But when she sees somebody act she's like, Oh, I'm in the right place.
Govindh Jayaraman (19:59):
Is going to be.
Michael Walsh (19:59):
They're committed to their stuff. That means that this is probably going to be a great experience for us. And she just she. It shifts like it's fascinating to watch, and it's brilliant on her part.
Govindh Jayaraman (20:09):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, no. I agree. Okay, so that was so raising your standards, getting clear on what you want
is the attributes. Right?
Michael Walsh (20:21):
Yeah. And and the and the thing that is so. So the one thing I'm gonna say is, when when we're talking about raising the standards, you know, you really do want to change your approach. You want to set up for a higher caliber person, but you also have to be patient while being optimistic.
So yes, you may not be finding the person that you want, and stay with it and be optimistic that the right person is there. I promise you the patience combined with optimism will get you there, and the 3rd part is to trust the process. Now, one of the things that we'll be, we'll be launching for people. And by the time this this this series is available we'll actually have a full
(21:00):
hiring process available for people on how to actually do this. So there will be a link in whatever it is, where we set this up and make it available to people. There will be a link by the time we get there. It's not ready yet, but the but the link will actually give people access to the whole hiring protocol that we use when we're working with our clients. And they could. It'll. It'll be basically done similar to a paint by numbers. You can actually just follow the process and and get what you need as far as that's concerned. So so you know, when I say, trust the process.
(21:28):
we'll give you a process as far as
because hiring literally is half the game.
You know.
Govindh Jayaraman (21:36):
Absolutely.
Michael Walsh (21:37):
I'm finally ready to talk about those 6 things.
Govindh Jayaraman (21:40):
That's right, that's great. It's good to know. So so now that we're there, let's talk about this. So there's 6 key attributes to hiring right and number one.
and it's number one clear thinking. What do you mean by clear thinking.
Michael Walsh (21:58):
Hey? I'm in an expertise. Now remember this. I I keep saying, this is an expertise based business, and I agree with your comment that that you know, you want people. You want people thinking everywhere you go.
So I understand that. And I agree with that. And I'm still gonna pound on the expertise based business thing. So that's.
Govindh Jayaraman (22:15):
Yeah, I understand, and I'll keep on pulling you the other way.
Michael Walsh (22:18):
I. I have no problem with that, and we'll do the dance. So so here's the thing. If I'm if I've got a services based business. It's based on the expertise of our people.
I need muddled thinking is, gonna get in the way.
And you can tell whether somebody's a clear thinker, or whether they're a muddled thinker just by the nature of the questions that you ask them. But I need, if I actively listen for that. There's 2 or 3 simple things you can do to help find that
(22:45):
and it and
But if you don't know to look for it, you can end up with somebody whose thinking is just muddled. And and it's just it's just not like literally, they could be a wonderful person. They might have a good memory, and as a result they remember certain things and pass muster an initial interview. But you're going to have a problem with these people because they can't grow, and and there's always a chip missing
(23:08):
like you don't, just because somebody applies to work with you doesn't mean you have to take them. You don't have to take everybody that applies. You do want to pick the right people for your organization. I know some people that are brilliant when it comes to mechanical things, but conceptually they're not very strong. I know people who are conceptually incredible, but they're crappy at the mechanical side. So depending on, you know, if I'm dealing with a skill.
(23:32):
A skill trade is based in expertise as well, but mechanical aptitude as part of that skill. Trade may be a form of the expertise, whereas in a consulting or in a in an engineering, or if there's a lot of, there's a lot of consulting based services where it's the thinking whether it's architecture, engineering, healthcare, like a number of different things where it's not the mechanical piece. It's actually the conceptual thought that that matters. Then then that's the part of it I want. But I need to see somebody who can think their way clearly through it.
(24:02):
Okay?
Because without that roadblocks.
Govindh Jayaraman (24:06):
But what would you say, though, like, I mean somewhere out there, if somebody's saying, Hey, nice thought, okay, Michael. But interviews are tough places, and sometimes people don't do well with them. Real clear thinkers can stumble in interviews. How do you understand these attributes in an interview environment.
Michael Walsh (24:25):
Well.
a very easy way to tell whether I've got a clear thinker is. Give them an assignment, tell them to present it, and just see how organized they are.
But yeah, so a lot of people, they'll give somebody an assignment. They'll ask them to do something in an interview.
Govindh Jayaraman (24:39):
And they're not.
Michael Walsh (24:39):
Looking for whether they get the right answer.
I'm looking for
their thought process and getting the right answer. I'll give you an example. One of the clients that we worked with was dealing with. There were computer guys.
okay. So they had men and women who would actually go out there and be the, you know, gender, neutral computer person for this for this for the company. The problem is, if you send a computer person out to somebody's company, and they've got 75 staff, and they've got, you know, a hundred different machines. And you know they got the peripherals and the printers and all the other stuff as well as the servers, and that
(25:14):
invariably computer technicians take longer than everybody expects.
just because there's it's way more complex than the initial issue or concern was presented. Okay, so they find that that you know this one, what looks like a small problem is really 4 problems that led to the one problem, not working.
(25:35):
Now that it's 1 thing, if that's the case, it's a whole different thing. If the person just can't think their way through the server and and the and the things. So one of the elements we had was we had one of the partners would actually pay for an individual to come in on a Saturday morning they got the agreement of of one of their clients, was a mortgage company, said, You know you know how to block off things to protect our information. So there's no private information being shared. But yes, you can use our
(26:00):
network. You know the the sterile parts of our network to actually test the person. Then what they do is they put certain things in the in the the log, and they'd make them do certain things, and literally they're paying them for this exercise.
and they just watch and see how the person navigates their way through.
Are they navigating their way through in a very clear, organized way, or are they jumping all over the place, and really not very organized with it, you know. Literally they could tell within that 4 h time slot exactly. You know who they had and whether they wanted the person or not. As far as that's concerned, I've seen other people that actually say, here's a design. What are the 5 different flaws in it, or show me how you how you'd actually assess whether this system can work.
(26:42):
whether it's an electrical system or an Hvac system, or whether it's architectural something. Or you know, how would you do a differential diagnostic on something? I mean, in each different industry there's different ways of doing that. And so, just by doing a simple exercise, it gets pretty obvious fairly quickly, if you know to look for it. That's why putting it down is half the battle.
Govindh Jayaraman (27:02):
Love it.
love it, and I love. We always do this. We always, always, always do some sort of evaluation or assignment
in every role, and it makes such a big difference. We give people the time to do it. And sometimes it's it's homework. Other times it's right there, solve a problem. We don't care whether the answer is right or not. We don't tell them that. Of course I sort of am right now, but regardless. We don't tell them whether or not the answer is unimportant. It's the thinking, how are they thinking, and how are they presenting it? And that goes to number 2? I mean. I think those 2 go together right hunger to learn.
Michael Walsh (27:36):
Yep, yeah. Voracious hunger to learn and grow. It's like, it's like, there's people
that really want to learn. And then there's people that say they want to learn and are busy wanting to show you how smart they are.
Okay, the people who want to learn tend to do better with
feedback. That includes something that needs to be corrected.
(28:00):
They're also.
Govindh Jayaraman (28:01):
Feedback is the essential pillar to learning.
Right? I mean, if learning doesn't exist without feedback, you need feedback, and people who are hungry to learn want feedback.
Michael Walsh (28:12):
Well, okay. So I'm I'm gonna disagree with you on that.
Govindh Jayaraman (28:16):
Okay.
Michael Walsh (28:17):
Nobody wants feedback. People want it.
Govindh Jayaraman (28:19):
No, no, no, no.
Michael Walsh (28:20):
We don't want, really. Nobody likes it that they're open to it. There's a.
Govindh Jayaraman (28:24):
Yeah, no, but but but learning doesn't exist without feedback.
Michael Walsh (28:27):
I totally agree. Unless you learn. You see how you did. You can't tell. There's a reason why you score in a basketball game, you know the score is too high, I mean, I can tell in a hockey game. One. Nothing. I counted good. It was 2, 1. i can keep track. 89 to 78.
Sorry I'm watching the game. I can't keep track with how many twos and how many threes and how many single, you know. So yes, tracking is there, and the feedback is important. But but I'm more interested in the person that that
(28:58):
everybody will say they want to learn everybody. So if you ask them what if they want to learn, they'll say it.
You know you could actually get clear on this very quickly. It's like, well.
tell me the last thing you learned, and how did you learn it? And and what is it that you're actively looking at right now? And the people that really aren't that interested in learning will fumble on the question, and you'll get some sort of generic thing where somebody who's actually really hungry to learn. They'll tell you very specifically what they're doing, and you can like, it is so easy to tell what's real versus what's claimed, because everybody will claim to want to learn and grow. Everybody will like. I've yet to find one single person who no, I'm not interested in that.
(29:35):
Seriously.
Govindh Jayaraman (29:37):
Yeah.
Michael Walsh (29:37):
That doesn't mean that they are. So. The key is, you just have to go one step past it, and it gets obvious fairly quickly. The key is that there's so much that they're trying to do. And I'm trying to get the right person. And they seem to have the right skills. And boy, did they do a good job in their last in their last employment? But you know, so I'll accept their answer that they're hungry to learn and grow, and I won't bother to test it. That's where people make the mistake is they take one step too short, as opposed to going one step beyond and actually really finding out.
Govindh Jayaraman (30:03):
Yeah. And it's the same thing with clear thinking. You test the clear thinking, you test the hunger to learn and and look.
this 3rd one is a big one for me.
Curiosity, right? A curious mind. Again it falls in sequence, a clear thinking hunger to learn a curious mind.
That's the 3rd attribute, how do we test that.
Michael Walsh (30:26):
Just ask them, you know, how did you? How did you? How did you get into that last job?
What was it that really intrigued you.
And what is it about this job that that catches your attention?
And and
What are some of the things that that you know? I don't know just what are some of the things that really, you're interested in exploring?
(30:48):
And again, I'll either get vague answers or I'll get specific answers.
Okay, do you use AI?
I mean, we're seeing and hearing so much about AI. Somebody completely just ignores it.
There's either there could be a lack of curiosity there, or it could just be that they're not lined up with their particular profession or trade, and you'll find that there's less curiosity about AI in some of the trades, even though I'm dealing with a lot of expertise in the trades, so I wouldn't necessarily ask that there. But in some of the professions. I might ask it because I got to tell you these days it's almost shoved down our throats, if not, at least checking it out or paying attention. There's no curiosity there, or you're so overwhelmed with something else. So.
Govindh Jayaraman (31:31):
And couldn't you even just say, Hey, do you have any questions for me? A curious mind has questions for you. Right? That's a very simple test in that environment. And here's the habit that I think everybody should be hearing about these attributes. And I want to make sure I'm following this properly, Michael, you're saying
the attributes. One thing don't just say, Hey, are you a clear thinker?
(31:55):
You test it.
Michael Walsh (31:56):
Were you.
Govindh Jayaraman (31:56):
Are you hungry to learn.
Michael Walsh (31:57):
Everybody's a clear thinker. So what does that mean? They don't know that they're clear thinking they don't. The clearest thinkers might actually give you a false negative. Well, you know I was. I was confused about something the other day. Well, that's because they're way more self aware. So I might get false positives and false negatives on it. So.
Govindh Jayaraman (32:13):
Not about the question. It's about the test. Yeah.
So here's.
Michael Walsh (32:18):
Even with Number 3. This is the exception of that. I if I if I'm not getting anything or I can't get it. What are you curious about right now?
What are some of the things that sort of catch your attention.
Govindh Jayaraman (32:30):
Yeah.
Michael Walsh (32:31):
And I'll get somebody that either goes. I don't know, or I'll go. You know, one of the things that I'm really curious about is, and it's whatever. And then, next thing you know, you're into a subject that sort of like somebody up or ask them, what is it that you're passionate about what you know. What are you really interested in with these days? And what is it about that that interests you? And then you're listening for? Is somebody again trying to show how smart they are? Or is somebody really engaging in something that really has their attention?
(32:58):
Because curious people are curious about lots.
Govindh Jayaraman (33:01):
And really curious people will ask you what you think about it when they're talking about it.
Michael Walsh (33:09):
Totally.
Govindh Jayaraman (33:09):
Isn't this interesting? Blah blah blah! What do you think
and is like? I don't know anything about that, you know, whatever. But really curious people
will ask you what you think about something that's got them perplexed or interested, engaged or otherwise.
Michael Walsh (33:26):
Which which get which speaks to the underlying issue we're playing with here because there's the actual content of the subject matter, and that's where most people play. Is that the content of what we're talking about?
What's way more interesting is the underlying dynamics on that lie beneath that content. So curiosity is an is a perfect example of an underlying dynamic or or access to. You know, I mean, we're process consultants. Okay in our firm. And so we look at what processes give people access. Well.
(33:58):
the contents, the content.
Curiosity is is a process type. Thinking. You know, it's a process type thing. A clear mind is is a requirement to do that. So I watch for the curious mind rather than just the content. Now you can get carried away with the content, because what you're talking about is so interesting. But what I want you to do is just to stop and look and say, Well, how curious were they when they talked about that, or were they busy trying to give me the right answer?
(34:24):
As long as you ask yourself those questions it starts to get obvious. It's actually not that hard to see.
Govindh Jayaraman (34:31):
No, no, you're absolutely right. So number 4, clear thinking hunger to learn. Curious mind. Now we go to humble outlook. Yes, what does that mean?
Michael Walsh (34:40):
If I'm better than everybody else's, it's not gonna go. Well, the minute I'm in a team.
If I'm busy trying to prove to you how right I am. I'm gonna it's not. I'm not gonna do well as part of a team.
If I honestly believe that there's others that are just as good as me, or better, or people where I can learn from humility, you know, is one of the key attributes of of most the most powerful leaders.
(35:04):
you know, hubris gets in the way.
and so a humble outlook is the difference between an effective executive and a hired gun.
because mercenaries are great at what they do, and they know it, and they're better than others, and they know it. And how well do those people fit on your team where somebody could be really, really good. But they're always looking for how they can contribute to other people. They're always looking for what they can learn from other people, and and as a result they don't think they know everything, and you know it's again not hard to watch for now how humble are you. There's no way to answer that.
Govindh Jayaraman (35:43):
I don't know. There's a quantifier to that.
Michael Walsh (35:44):
Any valid answer to it, so I never asked that. I just listen. You know what's the biggest thing you what was the most surprising thing you learned this year, and from whom?
And you know, like, it's interesting when you dance with the whole conversation around learning
the there's lots of access to stuff like that. And you can tell, am I about me, or am I about we.
(36:08):
you know, and and somebody is more about weak? Is others centric as opposed to self centric, which is probably a bad way to say it. But you know what I mean.
Govindh Jayaraman (36:17):
Yeah, and and I. And I really think I really liked
what you said that humility is such a key to teamwork.
And I'm reminded by the the great.
There's a great, great, great, great interview with Kobe Bryant
and Kobe is on black entertainment television. They did this mastermind series where they. They brought these great
(36:41):
athletes and artists and people. And they do this sort of role modeling thing. When Bat came on and
the interview starts off
right out the gate interviewer starts off and says, I've interviewed thousands of people and they fall into one of 2 camps.
They're either afraid to lose or they have to win. Which one are you?
(37:03):
Kobe takes this long and says, neither, I'm just here to learn.
like I look at every moment as an opportunity to learn, because if I'm too afraid to lose, then I'm a slave to that emotion. If I'm if I have to win, I'm a slave to that emotion. I'm always living in some other time than right now.
but when I'm here I can be here to learn.
(37:27):
and every opportunity is an opportunity to learn.
and that that's where I need to be.
And when I'm there I'm great that that humility, that willingness to do the work and be present is really huge, and I think it really leads to Number 5. Right? You talked about it right out. Humility is the key to teamwork. Number 5 is commitment to contribute.
(37:49):
It's this, it's sort of like one leads to another right.
Michael Walsh (37:54):
If I'm not willing to contribute to others, I may be so caught up in my own survival that I'm not actually going to be useful on the team
if I'm interested in committing like, if I commit to contribute to other people, I'm you know what? Then? I'm useful on the team.
Because if I'm if I'm unwilling to to, really, because guess what? It's not gonna it. Teams are never equal.
Different people contribute at different levels at different times depending what the need is, and let's say you and I are on on a team together, and there's 2 other people. All 4 of us are there. You know what there may be one time when your expertise is needed a little bit more. There may be a different time when my expertise is need a little more might be another time when you and I, our collective expertise, actually carries the day, and it could be a different time when the other 2 their expertise. And and you don't. Nobody keeps track. You don't. You can't keep track, because if you keep track you go crazy.
(38:40):
So you need people that they just have a commitment to contribute.
And you again, you can read that. It's not hard to read.
Govindh Jayaraman (38:47):
And commitment to contribute is different than
a need to be heard or a need to. You know there, there's some people.
Michael Walsh (39:01):
Show how smart I am by saying how much I know out of some, out of some pretense of contribution.
Govindh Jayaraman (39:07):
Exactly, and there's so much of that out there will be. And we've all been in a meeting. We've all been in a situation where somebody just has to put in their 2 cents, just to make sure that everybody knows they're there, and everybody knows how important they are or how smart they are, or that they're in the room
right.
Michael Walsh (39:27):
Yeah. Sometimes a real contribution could just be quietly asking a question that allows the other person to
connect with their own skill.
you know, done behind the scenes, or something like that, like, or, you know, doing something that nobody notices, and they know nobody ever will. But it gets done because it's what needs to get done.
Govindh Jayaraman (39:49):
Yeah. And I think this really goes into also a commitment to contribute is is leads to this number 6, which is open to others contributions, because that's so important. There's so many quiet experts in an organization. And the organizations that elevate the quiet experts
really do well like really do well, so a commitment to contribute, but also being open to eliciting and and welcoming, making it easier for those quiet experts to speak
(40:20):
is really important.
Michael Walsh (40:23):
I find is a lot of times when people are committed to contributing to others. It's like the person that always wants to buy for other people, but they hate it when somebody buys for them.
Okay, what you find is that really buying for the for others, or contributing to others in whatever way is really called keeping ahead of the scorecard.
and if they contribute to me, it's now I may owe them something. So you find that this is one of those areas where you get hidden insecurities quite often, and sometimes I've got somebody that's ace on the other 5, and they may need to be supported or control, because if if they can't allow for the contributions of other people.
(41:01):
they're never going to grow.
Because the truth is together, we really are stronger, and and if we're not together we aren't. And so, if I need to be contributing. But I'm not allowing for anybody else to contribute to me then I'm not allowing for balance in the equation, or I'm not allowing for, for you know, for others to feel good about things as well, and it's fascinating how people get stuck in that.
(41:26):
you know. It it really is, an interesting phenomenon.
Govindh Jayaraman (41:32):
So so today, we've talked about raising your standards and getting clear on what you want.
And we've talked about the 6 key attributes clear thinking, hunger to learn, curious mind, humble outlook, commitment to contribute and open to others contributions. And the 3rd thing that's really important in this hiring smart dynamic is getting to know them first.st
Michael Walsh (41:59):
Yes, and the reason that you want to get, and you want to get to know them in depth, like.
here's the thing you need to get to know the whole person. One of the things that people do is they actually look for the skills, the job related skills and attributes first, st and they figure well, you know I got to understand what the character is for the person and all that stuff as well. We do the opposite.
(42:20):
We get to know the character of the person first, st and find out who they are and where they're going, and all that, and we see if there's a fit that way first, st
before we actually get into this skills. I mean, yeah, we'll check to make sure on the surface that we seem to have enough of the right skills. But I've seen too many times when people get really excited about the skills that somebody has or the experience that they've got specifically that would solve our problem. And then we call any behavioral issues they may have or character issues they may have as just idiosyncrasies and nobody's perfect. Everybody's got their own uniqueness in their personality.
(42:51):
Whereas if you actually look at the character of the individual first, st you mo, you may go. I don't care what their skills are. I don't know what their skills are yet, but there's no way I want that on my team.
Okay, let's say I find that I've got a mercenary even then then doesn't matter how good they are.
If I find somebody who's incredibly skilled, and they can actually generate results twice and 3 times more than everybody else.
(43:14):
and then later, I find out. Well, they seem to have these mercenary type attributes, but I'm so enamored with their skills, I actually overlook the other side, like, if I don't take the time to get to know somebody. I will bring people on my team that aren't quite a fit. And what I find is that 80% of the time when somebody has to be let go. It's character issue, not a skills issue.
(43:37):
I mean, every now and then there's a skills issue. People claim that they're better than they are, and somebody didn't check quite thoroughly enough. But most of the time it's because they couldn't work with the rest of the team.
Govindh Jayaraman (43:46):
Yeah.
Michael Walsh (43:47):
So if I don't take the time to get to know them and really understand what they're about, I will pay for that privilege.
Govindh Jayaraman (43:53):
So.
Michael Walsh (43:54):
Sure.
Govindh Jayaraman (43:55):
How do you do that?
What do you do?
Michael Walsh (43:58):
Well, the 1st thing I do is I literally look for character. First, st
okay. Second thing more senior. It is.
You know, what? Go to dinner with them, you know.
Govindh Jayaraman (44:08):
And invite, invite their partner, invite.
Michael Walsh (44:10):
Absolutely. And we do that we invite their partner. Bring my partner. And next thing you know, we actually we're talking about things or or go to something that's not necessarily straight business, and just get a sense of who they are
and and the the higher the rate, like, if you're hiring somebody the Vp level. There's no way you hire them without doing those types of things, because you really got to get a sense for people. I know one person that goes golfing with people now
(44:33):
time of year, and not everybody's good at golf. But I do. You know, when people are, it's amazing. You know there are certain sports where you will show who you are in that sport. I've seen people that play tennis with people because they heard they were good at tennis or whatever. And they, you know, I like. There's lots of different, and I'm not saying you have to go run out and do a sport with people. But but I got to tell you, when you sit with people over lunch or dinner, you'd be amazed at what you discover.
(44:57):
You know the other thing is, don't have it. Be one interview and and hire like actually take 2 or 3 interviews, especially if it's a larger, a larger mandate and because who shows up on the 3rd interview is who I'm interested in. That's who I actually will get. You know we had a young man that we were hiring. It was down in New Orleans.
(45:17):
Louisiana, and it was for intermediate accounting person for this staff accountant for this. For this company it was a healthcare based company. And the 1st interview he showed up in a 3 piece suit.
you know, young man, very professional, you know. Second time same 3 piece suit no tie, open collar, fine 3rd interview, jeans and a t-shirt.
(45:43):
and because he figured he had the job of these being invited back 3 times. So what we are very clear about is who we're going to get is the guy that shows up to the 3rd interview, not the first.st I've also seen situations where we in the 1st interview we meet with somebody, and they're, you know, they're very polished. Second interview, same, not only their personal mannerisms, but also you know how they conduct themselves. Address and all that stuff. 3rd interview, same thing.
(46:08):
And it's like, Okay, I see consistency here, and if you see it in 3 different venues at 3 different times, you're in a situation where you can start to see who you got.
So that's another aspect of getting. Know them. It's not, you know.
Govindh Jayaraman (46:20):
And it's not always level or downhill, right? Sometimes people grow.
Michael Walsh (46:25):
It better as you go. Oh, absolutely yeah. And that gets really interesting
because they might be hesitant about you. And as they get more relaxed with you. They let themselves show a little bit more because they feel more comfortable. And we actually did that when we were hiring a salesperson in Calgary for a design firm, and that person in the 1st meeting they were very stiff, and but there was enough that we saw that was like, okay, well, this is worth another. And I was with the owner when we were interviewing. This 1st and second meeting was was again, and this woman settled down, and
(46:54):
she was she was better. The 3rd meeting, the the owner suggested. We go to dinner, and so the 3 of us went to dinner, and in the 3rd meeting this person just blossomed.
and in fact, the owner hired her, and she was brilliant. She was absolutely brilliant for this team at that time in their career development, and everything worked out really well way better than they would have expected. And it was interesting because I was talking to the owner and the owner said, you know.
(47:18):
when we met them the 1st time, I really was wondering whether we should even have a second meeting.
and and I'm so glad we did.
Govindh Jayaraman (47:27):
Right.
Michael Walsh (47:27):
So they do go both ways.
Govindh Jayaraman (47:29):
Absolutely absolutely.
There's a lot here, but the most important part is hiring. Smart
is really important, and hiring right
is half of the game, and and this is a great framework for that. Thank you, Michael.
Michael Walsh (47:46):
Welcome!
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