In Episode 260 of Paper Napkin Wisdom, we sit down with Toni Harrison, the powerhouse CEO of Etched Communication, a nationally recognized communications firm. Toni brings not only decades of experience in high-stakes PR and crisis management, but also a deeply personal and refreshingly honest take on what it means to be resilient in business and life. Her napkin reads:
“Toni’s 4 Pillars of RESILIENCE (being R.E.A.L.):
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Taking on the (R)igor
-
(E)mbrace experience
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Discovering how to be (A)daptable
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Employing (L)evel-setting goals throughout your professional journey”
This episode isn’t just a discussion—it’s a masterclass in sustainable leadership, personal grit, and the kind of grounded wisdom that comes from walking through fire and choosing to learn from it.
R is for Rigor
Toni opens up the conversation by challenging the idea that success comes from ease. "You don’t develop resilience unless you walk through something hard," she says. For her, rigor is not a punishment—it’s preparation. “Taking on the rigor,” as she frames it, is about leaning into the demanding moments, not dodging them.
In her words:
“Rigor is where your confidence is built. It’s where you prove to yourself that you are capable—not perfect, but absolutely capable.”
She reminds us that we can’t outsource that part of growth. The hard things must be met head-on.
E is for Embrace Experience
Toni believes that experience—especially the messy, unpredictable kind—is the greatest teacher. “Every high moment and every low moment has taught me something about who I am,” she says.
Rather than resisting difficulty or resenting failure, Toni encourages leaders to embrace the totality of their journey. “If we can own our story without shame,” she says, “we can show up in every room as our whole self.”
This is especially important for leaders navigating change or conflict. “You can’t communicate through crisis if you’re not in relationship with your own lived experiences.”
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Govindh Jayaraman (00:02):
Tony Harrison. Welcome to paper napkin wisdom. I am excited to have you here today.
Toni Harrison (00:07):
Well, thank you. I'm excited to be here for an awesome conversation.
Govindh Jayaraman (00:11):
Well, so look if you're just listening to this conversation and not watching it, I welcome you to please log on, because Tony's got some exceptional art in the background. We talked about beforehand. What is the name of the artist?
Toni Harrison (00:27):
Kofi Agasor.
artist. He is known for abstract, but when you look at his paintings you can start to see life
coming alive. This is actually a party scene behind me. They are at a party, but at 1st it just looks like colors floating down the canvas, but then, when you look closely, you may see a saxophone. You see the legs. They're dancing. It's my favorite piece of art.
Govindh Jayaraman (00:56):
It's really quite striking, and I do love that. The more you look at it, the more you see. So it is abstract.
but it's very layered, and and it's it's striking. It's beautiful. So if you're if you're not watching this, and you're listening to this, check it out and check out Kofi Agasour's work. It's beautiful.
(01:17):
Tony, you shared a really interesting napkin with me, and and it's your 4 pillars of resilience, and and they are
taking on the rigor. That's the r
embrace experience e. Discovering how to be adaptable. A. And employing level setting goals throughout your professional journey, which is also being real is the acronym.
(01:45):
Why did you share that with me?
Toni Harrison (01:47):
You know, resilience is really about the getting up, not the falling down.
and a lot of times after we've fallen down, and it seems so hard to get up. We can only see what's wrong.
and we can only see what's holding us back, or maybe what didn't go as planned. That made us fall down in the 1st place. And I have a concept that I call flipping the coin right? If we think about being real well, let's start about taking on the rigor. Any entrepreneur is going to fall down right? So, rigor we've got to get back up that comes from within, and being ready for those challenges and embracing them as they come right.
(02:28):
And then, in thinking about being adaptable, we have to be firm in the destination, but flexible in our journeys, because there are so many things beyond our control that come into our pathways, that we either can see as a roadblock that stops us, or is a hurdle that we jump over. And then those level setting goals just because you fall down. It doesn't mean you won't meet that goal.
(02:50):
Maybe you didn't meet it in this moment, but you're still on the path level, set
refocus and get back to that goal. So, being real, this is something I apply every day. I have it written in my handwriting and framed on the wall in my office, because we have to constantly remind ourselves of these things, especially as entrepreneurs.
Govindh Jayaraman (03:12):
I really. So let's let's start with the rigor and taking on the rigor. And I I think that's the hard part. I think.
I think, that
a lot of us, when we fall down and and look in your professional work, you deal with a lot of people who have fallen down organizations when they're in the down is when they come to Tony Harrison, right? So.
Toni Harrison (03:36):
Right.
Govindh Jayaraman (03:38):
So you're used to that.
How?
How, or what's the what do you see as being the successful getting up strategies that people have like you've seen both sides of it. People stuck in the mud stuck there for a while, and other people who just bounce up. What do you see as being the difference between the 2.
Toni Harrison (03:59):
So
let's take a step back right? I'm a crisis manager, a communication crisis manager. So many times I am speaking with a new client
on the worst day of their career. And it's the 1st time we've spoken, hey, I need help right now. Cameras are outside of my office building, or my stock has fallen so far, my shareholders. My company is going to collapse.
(04:23):
and when we think about rigor right? And we've fallen down. So we're already in this place.
It's a mindset
we have. It's not just oh, I want to get up. Of course you're an entrepreneur, or you know, a CEO, you. You didn't get into that to say, Oh, well, if I fall down, I give up.
but it can be so hard to get that mindset in that moment, and sometimes that moment is all you have, because the time is going to pass, and if the stock continues to fall, or what have you? Whatever the situation may be, so getting the mindset to say, Hey, this won't be easy, but I am going to face it till I make it not fake it till I make it. I'm going to face it.
(05:05):
whatever that's going to take. Yes, it's going to be hard, but it's also going to be worth it. Yes, it may require me to step outside of my comfort zone, but that's what it's going to take to get past this moment, and I'm willing to commit to that, because I know what's on the other side of this challenge, and that is opportunity. There is always opportunity on the other side when we face it with rigor and run straight into it with the right mindset.
(05:30):
So, being prepared for that, and knowing it's coming, I was speaking with my nephew yesterday, and he's just finished his Master's degree, and he's getting into his career. And he's like, Well, I want it like this, and I want this, and I want that. And this is how my career is going to go.
And I said to him, You know no one says
(05:52):
I want a Mercedes, or I want, you know, name something like just luxurious and nice. I want that because it's easy to have.
No, you want it, because it is a symbol, a status symbol, right? Because it does show. Hey? I've achieved something or done something, or I have something, and not that we have to equate it to material things. But when you think about it on that level isn't your business the same?
(06:17):
It's hard entrepreneurs work 80 HA week to not work 40 HA week for someone else. So that rigor, that mindset that is the 1st thing. If you have that, the rest domino effect falls into place the right way, but you must approach it with the rigor.
Govindh Jayaraman (06:35):
I love it. I love the mindset I love, I love your play on words, face it till you make it
right. I love that.
And I also like the metaphor that you gave of flipping the coin because you said it again in another way, and the other way that you said, this is, opportunity is on the other side of challenge. So if you're in the challenge side of the coin.
(06:57):
you could flip it to the opportunity side. And it's it's a physical thing you could. You could even have you know I have this vision that you could have this big C on one side of a coin, and you could flip it over to the O side of the coin and say, Okay, what's the opportunity?
Right? And and if we had that rigor, that practice, and that's why you call a rigor. It's just it's do the thing. Just do the task.
(07:21):
The rigor of turning the coin over right.
Toni Harrison (07:24):
Right right, and once you do ha! Ha! The gates open again.
Govindh Jayaraman (07:30):
Right? Right? So. And I see that that's
that. That's the whole thing. So then, embracing experience. So what does that mean? Practically you had so many great tools for how to embrace the rigor or sorry taking on the rigor.
How does how does the experience work embracing the experience work.
Toni Harrison (07:49):
Experience is the greatest teacher. Experience is where we evaluate what went wrong, how to make it right, or what went right, and how to do more of that.
Experience also tells us where we've been and where we're likely to go. If we make changes or don't make changes.
every experience back to challenge versus opportunity. Right? Every experience can be a challenge or an opportunity.
(08:16):
Did I have this experience? And now I'm down on myself. And what am I going to do? And my company is in trouble, or did I have this experience? Take on the rigor and then say, You know what it's taught me something. I'm not doing that again. I won't make that mistake twice. I'll probably make another mistake down the road, but I won't make that one. I'm going to learn for it from it, and I'm going to move forward with it. That's where the experience comes in. It's experience is not a check. The box, one or done.
(08:45):
It's an evolution, and we will continue experiences
as we go. But as we're learning from them, taking those lessons, whether they're micro or macro, we can turn every experience into a challenge or an opportunity. And hopefully, if we're going with the rigor that experience
becomes the opportunity.
Govindh Jayaraman (09:07):
And I like how. So there's a there's something called the restorative process, which I'm sure you're familiar with, which is, you know, acknowledging when harm is done, and there are really 5 questions in the restorative process. You know what happened? Who was impacted? In what way? What have you been thinking about, since
what are you going to do to make it right? And when you ask those questions in sequence, sort of get to the place
(09:31):
of restoring restorative. That's the restorative process. So when you, when you think about it, you you went to how how do you make it? Right? And that's the opportunity, because there is an opportunity in making it right.
You know the opportunity. I think a lot of people think of making it right as a punishment
to avoid.
(09:51):
But you framed it as an opportunity to lean into because it there's an experience, it becomes part of something greater, doesn't it?
Toni Harrison (09:59):
It absolutely does. And here's newsflash.
All of us are going to make mistakes.
All of us are going to do something and look back and say.
Why did I do that? Or if I had this nugget of information, I would have made a different decision.
That's experience. Right?
And so again. We can take that and be down on ourselves and say, Oh, look! I messed up. This happened, or we could say, You know. Yes, that did happen. Gosh! I really don't like that. It happened. So what am I going to do about it? How am I going to make sure it doesn't happen again and again. You're going to make another mistake.
(10:36):
All of us are, but we follow that process again, and that's where the growth happens. That's where we move forward. We don't have to swim with a parachute because something bad happened. We have to let it go, but to let it go. We have to recognize it was there. In the 1st place.
Govindh Jayaraman (10:53):
Right, right? You can't let go of something you can't see. So so embrace that. Let it go and move on. And this sort of really leads into your next point. But but I really want to go back to how do you make it? Right in your experience and you've dealt?
I love the frame that you set, and it's it's fun to see how you light up over this. But
(11:18):
people came to you on their worst day of their career. That's that's when people walk through your door.
Toni Harrison (11:24):
Yes.
Govindh Jayaraman (11:24):
Right. It's the worst day for them. Something like the proverbial crap has hit the fan.
There's a mess, and your question is how to make it right.
How is it do you find the people who get to that place faster are the ones that really
achieve something?
(11:46):
Right? They're that they're iterating faster.
Toni Harrison (11:49):
Absolutely you
problems, crises. They don't go away because you ignore them. They don't go away because you're on or they they don't go away because you're not honest about them.
And one thing that we frequently forget many of us do, especially when we're going through something.
(12:14):
There are always humans just like you and me on the other side.
and sometimes we're so caught up in what went wrong that we're complicating. Oh, well, what about this and that. And this, hey? Sometimes we can make the complex simple. Here's what went wrong.
Here are one or a few ways to make it right.
(12:35):
which one makes the most sense in this moment is and is authentic to you. Your brand, your company, and let's move forward. No one is ever saying to a company. You're not allowed to make a mistake.
What they are saying is, when you make a mistake, own it, repair it.
and move forward. We see it with, let's say, a consumer recall.
(12:59):
A company says, Hey, I made this widget. And now this widget is causing problems. Maybe it's starting fires, or it's breaking.
Okay. But hey, we owned it. We said, we've noticed this issue is happening.
We are going to make it right.
Everyone's getting a new product. And if you don't want the new product, we'll refund your money.
(13:23):
Now, is someone going to in that moment say, Oh, okay, all is forgiven. This is great. No, they may still be frustrated.
But the opportunity to turn that
from a challenge lies in that response, and walking the pace, because eventually they will appreciate that you did that we see it all. But how many recalls have we seen? Those companies have bounced back? But the ones that it's been a lot harder are the ones who denied it, and let it happen to thousands of people
(13:53):
before they did something about it.
Govindh Jayaraman (13:55):
Yeah, and that like the faking line in hiding just doesn't work, especially in this social era. Right? Like you.
the word will spread.
Toni Harrison (14:05):
It will. And but the number of companies and leaders who will say, Do we really have to say that? Or do we really have to let people know that, or we don't want to say that. And sometimes it's but you must.
There are a lot of things we don't want to do but what we all want, and the shared goal here is to overcome this situation and have success right? So, while we may not want to do something in the moment back to embracing that experience. Experience tells me I don't want to do this. It makes me uncomfortable.
(14:38):
but focused on that goal at the end says that while you're uncomfortable.
enjoy that discomfort a little bit, because we've got to go through it back to see how these are now moving backwards, they move backwards and forwards.
Govindh Jayaraman (14:51):
Absolutely
so. So, then, obviously discovering how to be adaptable is where we grow. Right? That's the growth part of it, because you have absorbed it. But before I get to the adaptability, because some people just jump to the solution, how do we solve? How do we solve? How do we solve, and they go to adaptability without embracing the experience.
(15:11):
I I wonder, I wonder, when you're thinking back to your client the the number of people that you supported?
Have there ever been clients that refuse to base the experience and jump right to the adapter like the adaptable part of it?
And like, are those clients that actually make it.
(15:32):
or or the clients that you, you know, are, are you less likely to work with those kinds of clients like this? Feels almost like a little bit of a test lens for the kind of clients that you're gonna be able to do something with. Isn't it?
Toni Harrison (15:44):
Yes, no, it most certainly is. And there have been instances where we are working through something. And we've had to say, is this the right relationship. Of course I don't want anyone any client to ever feel as though I pushed them into something uncomfortable. But at the same time ethics and integrity
will tell me that I also have to have the boundary of not doing anything that I feel would sacrifice those ethics and integrity, because when we're talking about a media crisis. We're talking headlines. We're talking reddit threads. We're talking every social network. We're talking journalists talking about it right? Our news anchors on the news. And we're also talking about
(16:27):
average everyday people who are impacted. So we have to say, No, let's be realistic. What? What do people need to know.
What do they want to hear? And how can we resolve that for them? A lot of times? The crisis has already happened. So that's in the past that has happened. Do you want to recover? And how quickly.
Govindh Jayaraman (16:53):
Yeah.
Toni Harrison (16:54):
And that's for the Mac.
Govindh Jayaraman (16:54):
The way you're talking about it reminds me I had a friend of mine who's an orthopedic surgeon, and he would oftentimes
laugh, not laugh, but he would. He would find it amusing that people would complain about the discomfort of screws in their limbs or or plates being inserted to be able to restore a massive, debilitating injury when he says, Off he goes. People are forgetting. They came to me with a shattered leg. There was nothing left.
(17:28):
And yeah, this is uncomfortable. But it would have been worse if we did nothing.
Right? So yeah, yeah, the the screw sucks. I get how much that hurts.
but it's probably better than a bunch of bone shards up and down your leg right.
Toni Harrison (17:44):
Not paying, will resolve. If we don't do this, that pain will be persistent.
Govindh Jayaraman (17:51):
Yeah, or you just have a non-functional leg forever. Right? That that's the pre orthopedic surgery option. So so, discovering how to be adaptable, really comes out of embracing the experience. Because if you if you're faking and lying and hiding from the experience this, you're you're solving the wrong problem right? You adapt in the incorrect or inauthentic direction, so discovering how to be adaptable, really flows from embracing the experience which flows from again taking on the rigor right.
Toni Harrison (18:20):
8 and adaptability. It goes to something I said moments ago.
be firm in your destination. This is where I want to go. This is the vision. This is the goal. This is what we're aiming to achieve. But you must be flexible on the path there. The journey there is not 100% up to you or me.
(18:43):
There are so many factors that start to affect things right? So if we say, Hey, I am still focused on this destination, but in the moment I will see. Hey, this is coming my way, so I can adapt to that, because I've still got to get to my final destination.
Govindh Jayaraman (19:00):
That's amazing.
I like that. And and probably
I'm just saying, probably because in discovering how to be adaptable, there are probably things that you weren't measuring before that you can learn to measure about the progress on that journey
to
a prevent the same problem from occurring. But, more importantly, to go to the next step level up to your next set of goals. Am I? Am I right in a.
Toni Harrison (19:30):
Yes, yes, no, you've got it. And if you're thinking about the destination for the journey, so the destination you could say, Hey, we're signing the the big goal goes to that destination. That's the end point. That's where we'll be.
But level setting goals. You need those micro goals and objectives along the way. Hey? That's where I want to be. I'm not getting there tomorrow. I'm not getting there next week. It is a path. It is a journey. So right now, in this moment my goal is to make sure I do. XY, and Z, because that's how I can then take the next step.
(20:04):
and on the journey, when something comes in that feels like it could throw us off or push us down.
We set goals, for that moment doesn't mean your end, result, goal, your destination changes. But you set those micro goals along the way to measure your progress, but to also prepare and to know. Hey? Now I can take the next step. Look at what we achieved here, and it's very easy to say this is my goal. I have to do everything just to get here. I need a million in sales, or whatever the number is, or how many products you'd like to move.
(20:38):
But let's think about the major brands we know, like name one Coca-cola Mcdonald's Google, right?
They didn't. Coca-cola didn't start off saying, I'm going to have 10 different types of drinks.
I am going to have one soda.
It is going to be the best. Everyone's going to buy it.
(20:59):
Oh, people are drinking my soda. Maybe I should do one that has lemon lime
right. Mcdonald's we make burgers. They started making Burgers founder, Ray Kroc. Made burgers. He had a Burger stand. He made the best burgers at the time. Then you start to grow.
It's it's now. It doesn't mean he couldn't have said when he started, hey? Eventually I'd like to have a full chain of restaurants.
(21:25):
but again trying to be all things to all people at one time, and not being flexible, and setting those little goals along the way.
You know, the whole go big or go home. Concept just really doesn't work. It's not realistic. Go big or go home in this moment to get to that final destination, that goal.
Govindh Jayaraman (21:44):
So you know what what I find interesting about it is.
people are coming to you on the worst day of their career.
Right when resilience really matters.
You're you're asking them to do the work, embrace the experience, you know, learn, solve, and adjust along the way and make these micro goals. But really, really, all of it
(22:09):
is is not
running away from what's happened, but really embracing it like it's, it is really about the 1st thing you said, which is, it's that other side of the coin. It's flipping the coin to the other side and realizing that this is an opportunity, and just to rush through. It
(22:30):
means that you've missed the opportunity right.
Toni Harrison (22:34):
Yes, you've missed the opportunity, and you're likely to repeat it
if you're not approaching with rigor, embracing it being adaptable, setting the goals. How are you learning? How are you evaluating? How are you deciding to take a next step that will yield a different outcome? If you're not doing those things.
Govindh Jayaraman (22:54):
So where did this process come from, Tony like?
How did you? How did you? You know what lightning bolt struck you
to build this. It doesn't feel like it was a lightning bolt. I think it probably was developed over time. But
where did this come from?
Toni Harrison (23:09):
So this was ingrained in me.
My grandmother was a civil rights leader. She was fierce. She was the 1st black woman to ever address the Texas Legislature. I love speaking about her.
my father same thing. He was a professional athlete. He was the 1st black, all American basketball player, and then he was told he couldn't play in the Nba because he was black, and there was segregation.
(23:36):
Both of them instilled in me, and both of them overcame those right. My father's in the Hall of Fame today. But had he stepped back and said, well, they said, I can't play in the Nba. I don't know what I'm going to do.
Where where would he have gone? How different might his future have been if my grandmother had said, I'm not fighting for these things. That's someone else's problem. How different might our world be!
(24:03):
And they always taught me these things. Oh, you're going to fail! Surely you are all of us. Are we fail all the time? That's okay. That's okay. Give it a hug so that you know it so that you won't do it again right? So that you can learn from it. Try not to make that same mistake twice. Get back up, get back in the game back to my father right? Yeah, I lost games. Sure I did.
(24:27):
but I won in the end, because I kept going back, and I kept playing, and I made something of it.
It's always been part of me. And then now doing crisis management.
Govindh Jayaraman (24:40):
It's even more real because you know, someone's coming. And they're like, look at all these bad things that have happened. And I just need to sell a product. Well, it might be pretty hard to sell the product if no one's hearing what you need to say.
Toni Harrison (24:54):
Or I just need to keep my business going. I just need to keep it moving. Well, you can't keep it moving. If nobody wants to come along for the ride because they don't trust you, or because you were dishonest, or because you didn't own this. And now it happened to too many people versus recognizing it when it 1st started.
so I received it from grandmother, from my father. And now, with what I do with crisis management.
(25:20):
I not only have to own it for myself, but I have to apply it to my clients, and that is sometimes how I get them through those moments like, Look, we're going to be uncomfortable for a moment. But if our end goal is here, this discomfort is temporary versus being extended. Let's get through this discomfort back to rigor.
Govindh Jayaraman (25:40):
Yeah, I I love
I love what you said about your grandmother, you know. Give it a hug that that sounds like great.
great great advice when
when you're doing this. So so so this is how you learned it. This is how you have applied it in your, in your work in your world.
(26:01):
And
This is how it goes forward. Have you ever seen somebody who
maybe has gone too far? Let let's say, like, Do you have clients who have
literally been faking, lying, and hiding, not facing it, faking it for years and years and years, and and they come to you not on the worst day of life, but but on on the 400th birthday, worst day of their lives. They've just been shoving it under the carpet for all that time they've been lying to themselves and everybody
(26:37):
for a long, long time.
Can they still take on your process of being real?
Is it ever too late.
Toni Harrison (26:50):
That's a loaded question. I would like to say no, but
if you've never taken on the process, you must be willing to start now, and you must be very, very realistic back to real about what it's going to take to get there, and how much harder it may be. And I have had to have those conversations with clients and say, out of professional respect.
(27:17):
You are the client. I cannot make a decision or take a step without you. But here's the outcome you are likely to receive if we still continue. Now, if you still want to continue, unless it's violating ethics or integrity, right.
That's different. Then we're done. But if you still want to proceed proceed this way.
(27:38):
I cannot guarantee an outcome for you.
I will do what you need, or you think you need.
but I can't guarantee an outcome, and no one can. You have to understand that maybe your hiding and your lack of accountability, and your lack of communication is why this issue has festered and is here now this way. So unless you're willing to do the things you need to do to change that
(28:09):
happy to help. But I don't see how your outcome is going to be any different than continuing to hide.
Govindh Jayaraman (28:15):
Yeah. And and have you, have you been in circumstances? And I'm not asking for specifics at all? But have you been in circumstances where the odds are really high, where people were like against you, not against you, but a bit like where people have been, you know, in a decade of
mired failures and lies and all, and and hiding and covering up, and they they
(28:39):
took on the rigor they embraced the experience they were adaptable.
They they created micro goals and level setting goals that that helped them along their journey, and they found their way out of it. Eventually.
Toni Harrison (28:53):
Yes, but usually in those instances, especially the ones that come to mind. Now something has changed or shifted.
Another leader has come in. Another factor is at play, you know, one company it was. We want to go to Ipo.
and now we can't, because all of these things we were hiding behind are coming to light because it's Ipo public offering right? Or once it was a major leadership change with a board of directors. A new board of directors comes in and says to the CEO, No, you're going to. We have to do it this way. So there's usually a spark.
(29:33):
One thing I have learned about entrepreneurs. We're go getters. We're willing to do some of the work, but rarely can we change behaviors and mindsets.
We can adjust them and adapt to them. But if if what you're have always done is hide behind it.
I am not a miracle worker. No one is. It is very hard to convince a powerful founder or CEO that their ways are wrong and they need to change them. Usually there's a spark that comes in that helps us out.
Govindh Jayaraman (30:07):
Awesome. That's amazing.
there's a there's I know we could continue on. But but I think that this is a great way to to sort of
merge the next part.
We end every episode this season in honor of John Rulin, who was a great inspiration to our community, started a movement around a book called Giftology. Prior to writing the book he was on paper napkin wisdom 11 years ago, and shared a brilliant napkin with us, which was what you appreciate appreciates. He suddenly passed away, and in honor of his memory we were asking every guest to share some appreciation, share some
(30:46):
love out there in the world to shout out to somebody or several people in some cases. Who would you like to shout out today?
Toni Harrison (30:56):
Wow! Go with gratitude is a is another saying that I frequently try to own. And so I could name a lot of people. But then we'd be here all day long.
One person I'm truly grateful for is my much older sister. I love saying that about her, because someone once asked, who's the youngest? And she's 11 years young, older than me. So now I call her my much older sister, but being 11 years older than me, she passed on so much wisdom.
(31:27):
every mistake she made becoming an attorney to a major franchise owner. She shared with me as lessons. She would send books to me. You need to read this. If you can't read the entire book, read this chapter. When I was starting my business it was
meet this person. So you can understand how to put your benefits package together all of these things that as a crisis manager, I know that I don't know anything about running a business per se. I know how to be successful in crisis management and communication, and while she was getting her own businesses up and running, she was always there. She always passed on the lessons or connected me with someone who could, and that is critical.
(32:14):
Everything is not within us.
Expand your network, get uncomfortable. Ask the questions, learn from others, and she taught me how to do that. Which is why I have so many more people to be thankful for today, because I learned to step outside of my own bubble and to step outside of my comfort zone and say, Hey, I'm struggling. This is where I think I might drop a ball.
(32:38):
and she taught that to me, and that I carry with me every single day, and I can't measure it, because it still continues to manifest and surface in so many different ways, and it feels good to be able to own it and say, I need some help, and you know what I have never said. I feel like I'm about to fail. I need help and regretted it.
(33:02):
It's always been okay. So for anyone out there listening even when it feels like I am intimidated to say this? Or will people think I'm a failure, or will they think I'm incompetent? No failure. Incompetence is not owning it and not asking for help.
Step outside and do it. And she taught me that, and I thank her for it.
Govindh Jayaraman (33:23):
That's beautiful. That's beautiful. Thank you, Tony.
Toni Harrison (33:26):
Thank you.
Tony Harrison. Welcome to paper napkin wisdom. I am excited to have you here today.
Toni Harrison (00:07):
Well, thank you. I'm excited to be here for an awesome conversation.
Govindh Jayaraman (00:11):
Well, so look if you're just listening to this conversation and not watching it, I welcome you to please log on, because Tony's got some exceptional art in the background. We talked about beforehand. What is the name of the artist?
Toni Harrison (00:27):
Kofi Agasor.
artist. He is known for abstract, but when you look at his paintings you can start to see life
coming alive. This is actually a party scene behind me. They are at a party, but at 1st it just looks like colors floating down the canvas, but then, when you look closely, you may see a saxophone. You see the legs. They're dancing. It's my favorite piece of art.
Govindh Jayaraman (00:56):
It's really quite striking, and I do love that. The more you look at it, the more you see. So it is abstract.
but it's very layered, and and it's it's striking. It's beautiful. So if you're if you're not watching this, and you're listening to this, check it out and check out Kofi Agasour's work. It's beautiful.
(01:17):
Tony, you shared a really interesting napkin with me, and and it's your 4 pillars of resilience, and and they are
taking on the rigor. That's the r
embrace experience e. Discovering how to be adaptable. A. And employing level setting goals throughout your professional journey, which is also being real is the acronym.
(01:45):
Why did you share that with me?
Toni Harrison (01:47):
You know, resilience is really about the getting up, not the falling down.
and a lot of times after we've fallen down, and it seems so hard to get up. We can only see what's wrong.
and we can only see what's holding us back, or maybe what didn't go as planned. That made us fall down in the 1st place. And I have a concept that I call flipping the coin right? If we think about being real well, let's start about taking on the rigor. Any entrepreneur is going to fall down right? So, rigor we've got to get back up that comes from within, and being ready for those challenges and embracing them as they come right.
(02:28):
And then, in thinking about being adaptable, we have to be firm in the destination, but flexible in our journeys, because there are so many things beyond our control that come into our pathways, that we either can see as a roadblock that stops us, or is a hurdle that we jump over. And then those level setting goals just because you fall down. It doesn't mean you won't meet that goal.
(02:50):
Maybe you didn't meet it in this moment, but you're still on the path level, set
refocus and get back to that goal. So, being real, this is something I apply every day. I have it written in my handwriting and framed on the wall in my office, because we have to constantly remind ourselves of these things, especially as entrepreneurs.
Govindh Jayaraman (03:12):
I really. So let's let's start with the rigor and taking on the rigor. And I I think that's the hard part. I think.
I think, that
a lot of us, when we fall down and and look in your professional work, you deal with a lot of people who have fallen down organizations when they're in the down is when they come to Tony Harrison, right? So.
Toni Harrison (03:36):
Right.
Govindh Jayaraman (03:38):
So you're used to that.
How?
How, or what's the what do you see as being the successful getting up strategies that people have like you've seen both sides of it. People stuck in the mud stuck there for a while, and other people who just bounce up. What do you see as being the difference between the 2.
Toni Harrison (03:59):
So
let's take a step back right? I'm a crisis manager, a communication crisis manager. So many times I am speaking with a new client
on the worst day of their career. And it's the 1st time we've spoken, hey, I need help right now. Cameras are outside of my office building, or my stock has fallen so far, my shareholders. My company is going to collapse.
(04:23):
and when we think about rigor right? And we've fallen down. So we're already in this place.
It's a mindset
we have. It's not just oh, I want to get up. Of course you're an entrepreneur, or you know, a CEO, you. You didn't get into that to say, Oh, well, if I fall down, I give up.
but it can be so hard to get that mindset in that moment, and sometimes that moment is all you have, because the time is going to pass, and if the stock continues to fall, or what have you? Whatever the situation may be, so getting the mindset to say, Hey, this won't be easy, but I am going to face it till I make it not fake it till I make it. I'm going to face it.
(05:05):
whatever that's going to take. Yes, it's going to be hard, but it's also going to be worth it. Yes, it may require me to step outside of my comfort zone, but that's what it's going to take to get past this moment, and I'm willing to commit to that, because I know what's on the other side of this challenge, and that is opportunity. There is always opportunity on the other side when we face it with rigor and run straight into it with the right mindset.
(05:30):
So, being prepared for that, and knowing it's coming, I was speaking with my nephew yesterday, and he's just finished his Master's degree, and he's getting into his career. And he's like, Well, I want it like this, and I want this, and I want that. And this is how my career is going to go.
And I said to him, You know no one says
(05:52):
I want a Mercedes, or I want, you know, name something like just luxurious and nice. I want that because it's easy to have.
No, you want it, because it is a symbol, a status symbol, right? Because it does show. Hey? I've achieved something or done something, or I have something, and not that we have to equate it to material things. But when you think about it on that level isn't your business the same?
(06:17):
It's hard entrepreneurs work 80 HA week to not work 40 HA week for someone else. So that rigor, that mindset that is the 1st thing. If you have that, the rest domino effect falls into place the right way, but you must approach it with the rigor.
Govindh Jayaraman (06:35):
I love it. I love the mindset I love, I love your play on words, face it till you make it
right. I love that.
And I also like the metaphor that you gave of flipping the coin because you said it again in another way, and the other way that you said, this is, opportunity is on the other side of challenge. So if you're in the challenge side of the coin.
(06:57):
you could flip it to the opportunity side. And it's it's a physical thing you could. You could even have you know I have this vision that you could have this big C on one side of a coin, and you could flip it over to the O side of the coin and say, Okay, what's the opportunity?
Right? And and if we had that rigor, that practice, and that's why you call a rigor. It's just it's do the thing. Just do the task.
(07:21):
The rigor of turning the coin over right.
Toni Harrison (07:24):
Right right, and once you do ha! Ha! The gates open again.
Govindh Jayaraman (07:30):
Right? Right? So. And I see that that's
that. That's the whole thing. So then, embracing experience. So what does that mean? Practically you had so many great tools for how to embrace the rigor or sorry taking on the rigor.
How does how does the experience work embracing the experience work.
Toni Harrison (07:49):
Experience is the greatest teacher. Experience is where we evaluate what went wrong, how to make it right, or what went right, and how to do more of that.
Experience also tells us where we've been and where we're likely to go. If we make changes or don't make changes.
every experience back to challenge versus opportunity. Right? Every experience can be a challenge or an opportunity.
(08:16):
Did I have this experience? And now I'm down on myself. And what am I going to do? And my company is in trouble, or did I have this experience? Take on the rigor and then say, You know what it's taught me something. I'm not doing that again. I won't make that mistake twice. I'll probably make another mistake down the road, but I won't make that one. I'm going to learn for it from it, and I'm going to move forward with it. That's where the experience comes in. It's experience is not a check. The box, one or done.
(08:45):
It's an evolution, and we will continue experiences
as we go. But as we're learning from them, taking those lessons, whether they're micro or macro, we can turn every experience into a challenge or an opportunity. And hopefully, if we're going with the rigor that experience
becomes the opportunity.
Govindh Jayaraman (09:07):
And I like how. So there's a there's something called the restorative process, which I'm sure you're familiar with, which is, you know, acknowledging when harm is done, and there are really 5 questions in the restorative process. You know what happened? Who was impacted? In what way? What have you been thinking about, since
what are you going to do to make it right? And when you ask those questions in sequence, sort of get to the place
(09:31):
of restoring restorative. That's the restorative process. So when you, when you think about it, you you went to how how do you make it? Right? And that's the opportunity, because there is an opportunity in making it right.
You know the opportunity. I think a lot of people think of making it right as a punishment
to avoid.
(09:51):
But you framed it as an opportunity to lean into because it there's an experience, it becomes part of something greater, doesn't it?
Toni Harrison (09:59):
It absolutely does. And here's newsflash.
All of us are going to make mistakes.
All of us are going to do something and look back and say.
Why did I do that? Or if I had this nugget of information, I would have made a different decision.
That's experience. Right?
And so again. We can take that and be down on ourselves and say, Oh, look! I messed up. This happened, or we could say, You know. Yes, that did happen. Gosh! I really don't like that. It happened. So what am I going to do about it? How am I going to make sure it doesn't happen again and again. You're going to make another mistake.
(10:36):
All of us are, but we follow that process again, and that's where the growth happens. That's where we move forward. We don't have to swim with a parachute because something bad happened. We have to let it go, but to let it go. We have to recognize it was there. In the 1st place.
Govindh Jayaraman (10:53):
Right, right? You can't let go of something you can't see. So so embrace that. Let it go and move on. And this sort of really leads into your next point. But but I really want to go back to how do you make it? Right in your experience and you've dealt?
I love the frame that you set, and it's it's fun to see how you light up over this. But
(11:18):
people came to you on their worst day of their career. That's that's when people walk through your door.
Toni Harrison (11:24):
Yes.
Govindh Jayaraman (11:24):
Right. It's the worst day for them. Something like the proverbial crap has hit the fan.
There's a mess, and your question is how to make it right.
How is it do you find the people who get to that place faster are the ones that really
achieve something?
(11:46):
Right? They're that they're iterating faster.
Toni Harrison (11:49):
Absolutely you
problems, crises. They don't go away because you ignore them. They don't go away because you're on or they they don't go away because you're not honest about them.
And one thing that we frequently forget many of us do, especially when we're going through something.
(12:14):
There are always humans just like you and me on the other side.
and sometimes we're so caught up in what went wrong that we're complicating. Oh, well, what about this and that. And this, hey? Sometimes we can make the complex simple. Here's what went wrong.
Here are one or a few ways to make it right.
(12:35):
which one makes the most sense in this moment is and is authentic to you. Your brand, your company, and let's move forward. No one is ever saying to a company. You're not allowed to make a mistake.
What they are saying is, when you make a mistake, own it, repair it.
and move forward. We see it with, let's say, a consumer recall.
(12:59):
A company says, Hey, I made this widget. And now this widget is causing problems. Maybe it's starting fires, or it's breaking.
Okay. But hey, we owned it. We said, we've noticed this issue is happening.
We are going to make it right.
Everyone's getting a new product. And if you don't want the new product, we'll refund your money.
(13:23):
Now, is someone going to in that moment say, Oh, okay, all is forgiven. This is great. No, they may still be frustrated.
But the opportunity to turn that
from a challenge lies in that response, and walking the pace, because eventually they will appreciate that you did that we see it all. But how many recalls have we seen? Those companies have bounced back? But the ones that it's been a lot harder are the ones who denied it, and let it happen to thousands of people
(13:53):
before they did something about it.
Govindh Jayaraman (13:55):
Yeah, and that like the faking line in hiding just doesn't work, especially in this social era. Right? Like you.
the word will spread.
Toni Harrison (14:05):
It will. And but the number of companies and leaders who will say, Do we really have to say that? Or do we really have to let people know that, or we don't want to say that. And sometimes it's but you must.
There are a lot of things we don't want to do but what we all want, and the shared goal here is to overcome this situation and have success right? So, while we may not want to do something in the moment back to embracing that experience. Experience tells me I don't want to do this. It makes me uncomfortable.
(14:38):
but focused on that goal at the end says that while you're uncomfortable.
enjoy that discomfort a little bit, because we've got to go through it back to see how these are now moving backwards, they move backwards and forwards.
Govindh Jayaraman (14:51):
Absolutely
so. So, then, obviously discovering how to be adaptable is where we grow. Right? That's the growth part of it, because you have absorbed it. But before I get to the adaptability, because some people just jump to the solution, how do we solve? How do we solve? How do we solve, and they go to adaptability without embracing the experience.
(15:11):
I I wonder, I wonder, when you're thinking back to your client the the number of people that you supported?
Have there ever been clients that refuse to base the experience and jump right to the adapter like the adaptable part of it?
And like, are those clients that actually make it.
(15:32):
or or the clients that you, you know, are, are you less likely to work with those kinds of clients like this? Feels almost like a little bit of a test lens for the kind of clients that you're gonna be able to do something with. Isn't it?
Toni Harrison (15:44):
Yes, no, it most certainly is. And there have been instances where we are working through something. And we've had to say, is this the right relationship. Of course I don't want anyone any client to ever feel as though I pushed them into something uncomfortable. But at the same time ethics and integrity
will tell me that I also have to have the boundary of not doing anything that I feel would sacrifice those ethics and integrity, because when we're talking about a media crisis. We're talking headlines. We're talking reddit threads. We're talking every social network. We're talking journalists talking about it right? Our news anchors on the news. And we're also talking about
(16:27):
average everyday people who are impacted. So we have to say, No, let's be realistic. What? What do people need to know.
What do they want to hear? And how can we resolve that for them? A lot of times? The crisis has already happened. So that's in the past that has happened. Do you want to recover? And how quickly.
Govindh Jayaraman (16:53):
Yeah.
Toni Harrison (16:54):
And that's for the Mac.
Govindh Jayaraman (16:54):
The way you're talking about it reminds me I had a friend of mine who's an orthopedic surgeon, and he would oftentimes
laugh, not laugh, but he would. He would find it amusing that people would complain about the discomfort of screws in their limbs or or plates being inserted to be able to restore a massive, debilitating injury when he says, Off he goes. People are forgetting. They came to me with a shattered leg. There was nothing left.
(17:28):
And yeah, this is uncomfortable. But it would have been worse if we did nothing.
Right? So yeah, yeah, the the screw sucks. I get how much that hurts.
but it's probably better than a bunch of bone shards up and down your leg right.
Toni Harrison (17:44):
Not paying, will resolve. If we don't do this, that pain will be persistent.
Govindh Jayaraman (17:51):
Yeah, or you just have a non-functional leg forever. Right? That that's the pre orthopedic surgery option. So so, discovering how to be adaptable, really comes out of embracing the experience. Because if you if you're faking and lying and hiding from the experience this, you're you're solving the wrong problem right? You adapt in the incorrect or inauthentic direction, so discovering how to be adaptable, really flows from embracing the experience which flows from again taking on the rigor right.
Toni Harrison (18:20):
8 and adaptability. It goes to something I said moments ago.
be firm in your destination. This is where I want to go. This is the vision. This is the goal. This is what we're aiming to achieve. But you must be flexible on the path there. The journey there is not 100% up to you or me.
(18:43):
There are so many factors that start to affect things right? So if we say, Hey, I am still focused on this destination, but in the moment I will see. Hey, this is coming my way, so I can adapt to that, because I've still got to get to my final destination.
Govindh Jayaraman (19:00):
That's amazing.
I like that. And and probably
I'm just saying, probably because in discovering how to be adaptable, there are probably things that you weren't measuring before that you can learn to measure about the progress on that journey
to
a prevent the same problem from occurring. But, more importantly, to go to the next step level up to your next set of goals. Am I? Am I right in a.
Toni Harrison (19:30):
Yes, yes, no, you've got it. And if you're thinking about the destination for the journey, so the destination you could say, Hey, we're signing the the big goal goes to that destination. That's the end point. That's where we'll be.
But level setting goals. You need those micro goals and objectives along the way. Hey? That's where I want to be. I'm not getting there tomorrow. I'm not getting there next week. It is a path. It is a journey. So right now, in this moment my goal is to make sure I do. XY, and Z, because that's how I can then take the next step.
(20:04):
and on the journey, when something comes in that feels like it could throw us off or push us down.
We set goals, for that moment doesn't mean your end, result, goal, your destination changes. But you set those micro goals along the way to measure your progress, but to also prepare and to know. Hey? Now I can take the next step. Look at what we achieved here, and it's very easy to say this is my goal. I have to do everything just to get here. I need a million in sales, or whatever the number is, or how many products you'd like to move.
(20:38):
But let's think about the major brands we know, like name one Coca-cola Mcdonald's Google, right?
They didn't. Coca-cola didn't start off saying, I'm going to have 10 different types of drinks.
I am going to have one soda.
It is going to be the best. Everyone's going to buy it.
(20:59):
Oh, people are drinking my soda. Maybe I should do one that has lemon lime
right. Mcdonald's we make burgers. They started making Burgers founder, Ray Kroc. Made burgers. He had a Burger stand. He made the best burgers at the time. Then you start to grow.
It's it's now. It doesn't mean he couldn't have said when he started, hey? Eventually I'd like to have a full chain of restaurants.
(21:25):
but again trying to be all things to all people at one time, and not being flexible, and setting those little goals along the way.
You know, the whole go big or go home. Concept just really doesn't work. It's not realistic. Go big or go home in this moment to get to that final destination, that goal.
Govindh Jayaraman (21:44):
So you know what what I find interesting about it is.
people are coming to you on the worst day of their career.
Right when resilience really matters.
You're you're asking them to do the work, embrace the experience, you know, learn, solve, and adjust along the way and make these micro goals. But really, really, all of it
(22:09):
is is not
running away from what's happened, but really embracing it like it's, it is really about the 1st thing you said, which is, it's that other side of the coin. It's flipping the coin to the other side and realizing that this is an opportunity, and just to rush through. It
(22:30):
means that you've missed the opportunity right.
Toni Harrison (22:34):
Yes, you've missed the opportunity, and you're likely to repeat it
if you're not approaching with rigor, embracing it being adaptable, setting the goals. How are you learning? How are you evaluating? How are you deciding to take a next step that will yield a different outcome? If you're not doing those things.
Govindh Jayaraman (22:54):
So where did this process come from, Tony like?
How did you? How did you? You know what lightning bolt struck you
to build this. It doesn't feel like it was a lightning bolt. I think it probably was developed over time. But
where did this come from?
Toni Harrison (23:09):
So this was ingrained in me.
My grandmother was a civil rights leader. She was fierce. She was the 1st black woman to ever address the Texas Legislature. I love speaking about her.
my father same thing. He was a professional athlete. He was the 1st black, all American basketball player, and then he was told he couldn't play in the Nba because he was black, and there was segregation.
(23:36):
Both of them instilled in me, and both of them overcame those right. My father's in the Hall of Fame today. But had he stepped back and said, well, they said, I can't play in the Nba. I don't know what I'm going to do.
Where where would he have gone? How different might his future have been if my grandmother had said, I'm not fighting for these things. That's someone else's problem. How different might our world be!
(24:03):
And they always taught me these things. Oh, you're going to fail! Surely you are all of us. Are we fail all the time? That's okay. That's okay. Give it a hug so that you know it so that you won't do it again right? So that you can learn from it. Try not to make that same mistake twice. Get back up, get back in the game back to my father right? Yeah, I lost games. Sure I did.
(24:27):
but I won in the end, because I kept going back, and I kept playing, and I made something of it.
It's always been part of me. And then now doing crisis management.
Govindh Jayaraman (24:40):
It's even more real because you know, someone's coming. And they're like, look at all these bad things that have happened. And I just need to sell a product. Well, it might be pretty hard to sell the product if no one's hearing what you need to say.
Toni Harrison (24:54):
Or I just need to keep my business going. I just need to keep it moving. Well, you can't keep it moving. If nobody wants to come along for the ride because they don't trust you, or because you were dishonest, or because you didn't own this. And now it happened to too many people versus recognizing it when it 1st started.
so I received it from grandmother, from my father. And now, with what I do with crisis management.
(25:20):
I not only have to own it for myself, but I have to apply it to my clients, and that is sometimes how I get them through those moments like, Look, we're going to be uncomfortable for a moment. But if our end goal is here, this discomfort is temporary versus being extended. Let's get through this discomfort back to rigor.
Govindh Jayaraman (25:40):
Yeah, I I love
I love what you said about your grandmother, you know. Give it a hug that that sounds like great.
great great advice when
when you're doing this. So so so this is how you learned it. This is how you have applied it in your, in your work in your world.
(26:01):
And
This is how it goes forward. Have you ever seen somebody who
maybe has gone too far? Let let's say, like, Do you have clients who have
literally been faking, lying, and hiding, not facing it, faking it for years and years and years, and and they come to you not on the worst day of life, but but on on the 400th birthday, worst day of their lives. They've just been shoving it under the carpet for all that time they've been lying to themselves and everybody
(26:37):
for a long, long time.
Can they still take on your process of being real?
Is it ever too late.
Toni Harrison (26:50):
That's a loaded question. I would like to say no, but
if you've never taken on the process, you must be willing to start now, and you must be very, very realistic back to real about what it's going to take to get there, and how much harder it may be. And I have had to have those conversations with clients and say, out of professional respect.
(27:17):
You are the client. I cannot make a decision or take a step without you. But here's the outcome you are likely to receive if we still continue. Now, if you still want to continue, unless it's violating ethics or integrity, right.
That's different. Then we're done. But if you still want to proceed proceed this way.
(27:38):
I cannot guarantee an outcome for you.
I will do what you need, or you think you need.
but I can't guarantee an outcome, and no one can. You have to understand that maybe your hiding and your lack of accountability, and your lack of communication is why this issue has festered and is here now this way. So unless you're willing to do the things you need to do to change that
(28:09):
happy to help. But I don't see how your outcome is going to be any different than continuing to hide.
Govindh Jayaraman (28:15):
Yeah. And and have you, have you been in circumstances? And I'm not asking for specifics at all? But have you been in circumstances where the odds are really high, where people were like against you, not against you, but a bit like where people have been, you know, in a decade of
mired failures and lies and all, and and hiding and covering up, and they they
(28:39):
took on the rigor they embraced the experience they were adaptable.
They they created micro goals and level setting goals that that helped them along their journey, and they found their way out of it. Eventually.
Toni Harrison (28:53):
Yes, but usually in those instances, especially the ones that come to mind. Now something has changed or shifted.
Another leader has come in. Another factor is at play, you know, one company it was. We want to go to Ipo.
and now we can't, because all of these things we were hiding behind are coming to light because it's Ipo public offering right? Or once it was a major leadership change with a board of directors. A new board of directors comes in and says to the CEO, No, you're going to. We have to do it this way. So there's usually a spark.
(29:33):
One thing I have learned about entrepreneurs. We're go getters. We're willing to do some of the work, but rarely can we change behaviors and mindsets.
We can adjust them and adapt to them. But if if what you're have always done is hide behind it.
I am not a miracle worker. No one is. It is very hard to convince a powerful founder or CEO that their ways are wrong and they need to change them. Usually there's a spark that comes in that helps us out.
Govindh Jayaraman (30:07):
Awesome. That's amazing.
there's a there's I know we could continue on. But but I think that this is a great way to to sort of
merge the next part.
We end every episode this season in honor of John Rulin, who was a great inspiration to our community, started a movement around a book called Giftology. Prior to writing the book he was on paper napkin wisdom 11 years ago, and shared a brilliant napkin with us, which was what you appreciate appreciates. He suddenly passed away, and in honor of his memory we were asking every guest to share some appreciation, share some
(30:46):
love out there in the world to shout out to somebody or several people in some cases. Who would you like to shout out today?
Toni Harrison (30:56):
Wow! Go with gratitude is a is another saying that I frequently try to own. And so I could name a lot of people. But then we'd be here all day long.
One person I'm truly grateful for is my much older sister. I love saying that about her, because someone once asked, who's the youngest? And she's 11 years young, older than me. So now I call her my much older sister, but being 11 years older than me, she passed on so much wisdom.
(31:27):
every mistake she made becoming an attorney to a major franchise owner. She shared with me as lessons. She would send books to me. You need to read this. If you can't read the entire book, read this chapter. When I was starting my business it was
meet this person. So you can understand how to put your benefits package together all of these things that as a crisis manager, I know that I don't know anything about running a business per se. I know how to be successful in crisis management and communication, and while she was getting her own businesses up and running, she was always there. She always passed on the lessons or connected me with someone who could, and that is critical.
(32:14):
Everything is not within us.
Expand your network, get uncomfortable. Ask the questions, learn from others, and she taught me how to do that. Which is why I have so many more people to be thankful for today, because I learned to step outside of my own bubble and to step outside of my comfort zone and say, Hey, I'm struggling. This is where I think I might drop a ball.
(32:38):
and she taught that to me, and that I carry with me every single day, and I can't measure it, because it still continues to manifest and surface in so many different ways, and it feels good to be able to own it and say, I need some help, and you know what I have never said. I feel like I'm about to fail. I need help and regretted it.
(33:02):
It's always been okay. So for anyone out there listening even when it feels like I am intimidated to say this? Or will people think I'm a failure, or will they think I'm incompetent? No failure. Incompetence is not owning it and not asking for help.
Step outside and do it. And she taught me that, and I thank her for it.
Govindh Jayaraman (33:23):
That's beautiful. That's beautiful. Thank you, Tony.
Toni Harrison (33:26):
Thank you.
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