Michael Walsh is back with another profound insight in episode 262 of Paper Napkin Wisdom, continuing our “Freedom by Design” series. As the founder of Walsh Business Growth, Michael brings decades of experience helping companies build freedom within their businesses by designing scalable, people-first systems. In this episode, he shares a deceptively simple yet deeply strategic napkin: “Train & Grow Your People – It’s All About Results!” This message, like so many of Michael’s, anchors big transformation in an elegant framework.
At the heart of the napkin is a four-dimensional model of performance and growth, a Venn diagram of sorts, breaking down the interconnected drivers of sustainable success: Technical (T), Financial (F), Human (H), and Sustainable (S).
“When we talk about results, the trap is thinking about just the financials. But results are multi-dimensional — and sustainable results require balance,” Michael explains.
People First, Always
The conversation begins with a powerful premise: your people are your business. Training and growing your team is not a luxury — it’s the foundation of every dimension of results. Michael emphasizes that people development is the lever that moves everything else.
“If you're growing a business but your people aren’t growing, it’s just a matter of time before the business plateaus — or breaks,” he says.
This isn't just a theory. It’s observable in businesses that struggle under their own growth: technical skills outpace leadership development, financial decisions outrun cultural coherence, and strategy sprints past execution capacity.
The Four Dimensions of Results
Michael breaks down the four areas that intersect to create sustainable, long-term results:
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T = Technical – Are your systems, tools, and methods built for scale? Do your people have the know-how to deliver?
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F = Financial – Are you building a profit engine or a burnout machine? Are financial decisions informed by strategy or by stress?
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H = Human – Are your people engaged, aligned, and fulfilled? Do they understand their roles and feel ownership in results?
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S = Sustainable – Are all the above aligned in a way that allows you to keep going — with energy, clarity, and purpose?
“We often chase results in one domain, like revenue or delivery, without realizing that it's the harmony between all four that creates freedom.”
Michael illustrates how many business owners fixate on the technical and financial without realizing they’re undermining human capital or burning out sustainability. The key insight? These dimensions don’t just coexist — they compound when aligned.
The Hidden Power of S
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Govindh Jayaraman (00:02):
Michael Walsh. Welcome back to paper, napkin wisdom.
We're laying down another stone today in this pathway.
Michael Walsh (00:08):
Absolutely.
Govindh Jayaraman (00:09):
Yeah, this is exciting. So if this is the 1st one here the 1st time you're here, that's great. But this is part of a series. This is a special series where we're talking about
laying down these specific stones in a pathway, ultimately to win freedom in the business and from the business. And and we started talking about the 4 danger zones
(00:31):
that are hidden from most companies as they scale the danger zones relating to people and the exponential relationships, one-on-one relationships that occur as we grow an organization, the 4 driving influences of human behavior which led us to rethinking the core of the business.
the social contract between the owner and individual employees within an organization and the last episode we talked about hiring smart and hiring smart being, you know, half the game. And and that brings us to today's napkin, which is
(01:07):
part of the rest of the game which is training and growing your people.
It's all about results. And then, right underneath that in a box you have the dimensions of the results.
What does this mean, Michael?
Michael Walsh (01:20):
Okay. So if you're trying to gain freedom in your business.
it really means that you get to do the parts that you love and that are strategic in terms of the growth of the business.
When you're looking for freedom from your business, you want to be able to take more time off. And if you're looking for freedom because of your business, you're really looking at, how do I grow the asset value? But also, how do I grow the impact that my organization can actually provide. Okay?
(01:49):
And it's got to be able to expand without spreading me so thin that I become a slave to the business. So when so when I look at this
I can't do the stuff that I love or the stuff that's strategically significant unless I've grown the people in my business? Who are the people who actually generate the results, unless I've given them access to grow sufficiently that they can do it and take care of my clients and customers, or our collective clients and customers. I don't get any freedom from the business if I can't leave.
(02:19):
so my people need to be strong for me to be able to leave, and I need to have enough of them that are strong, and the asset value of the business isn't worth much if I'm the core of everything, and it has to revolve around me the minute I leave the asset value goes away, and there's only so much impact I can have on my own. So so one of the elements, I mean, we talk like you said we talked last time about hiring smart, you know. Half the game is who you get in your doors, but then
(02:43):
the other half is like, what do I do when I get them in my doors. And so the question is, how do I? How do I design
the training and growth of my people cause? I gotta tell you a lot of times. People say, you know, training growth, your people. Yeah, yeah, it's another to do on the list. Listen. It's everything we can do to get our products and services. And again, we're dealing with service based businesses, or businesses with a strong service component, even if they are a product
(03:10):
that are based in the expertise of their people. So if I need the expertise of my people to do this stuff, if I'm not training and growing them. I'm going to have a problem in terms of a number of like my ability to gain that freedom. But the other side of it is the reason people don't do that
is because they feel like it's everything I can do to deliver. I don't have time to train them on top of that it feels like I've got competing priorities. And the reason that feels like you've got competing priorities is because you're just not doing it right yet.
(03:41):
Now that's not say there's anything wrong with an individual or business owner. It's just if they haven't grown beyond a certain size, they just don't know how to align
performance of actually achieving the results for clients and growing their people, they should not have to do them concurrently.
Govindh Jayaraman (04:01):
Yeah. So I think this is super super important.
I think it's really
important. Also because you're talking about training and growth of a business training and growth of the people within the business, and I think a lot of people think that they're training them. Oh, I'm going to train them on how to do their job.
(04:21):
That's not
what you're saying. I mean, you're saying, Yeah, you got to train them in the business. But you're talking about results. Train them in delivering results.
Right? I mean, that's very different.
Michael Walsh (04:37):
I, even though it looks the same.
Yeah, it's the same thing. Well, kind of, but not really.
Govindh Jayaraman (04:45):
Let's talk about the similarities and why people feel that way. And then let's get into the differences.
Michael Walsh (04:51):
Well, the the 1st thing I want to do is, can I put a step in before that.
Govindh Jayaraman (04:54):
Sure, yeah, yeah.
Michael Walsh (04:55):
It surprises you that I might want to do that.
Govindh Jayaraman (04:57):
Sort of a pattern. I ask for something. You give me something else.
Michael Walsh (05:00):
Yeah, it's really good.
Govindh Jayaraman (05:01):
Good.
Michael Walsh (05:02):
Yeah, we'll eventually get to that.
Govindh Jayaraman (05:03):
Yeah.
Michael Walsh (05:04):
Okay. So here's the thing.
Everything. Okay. A business generates is designed directly to address one of the 3 elements of the value exchange.
It's either got to increase the customer value.
It's got to protect and grow profit.
(05:24):
or it's got to contribute to the professional growth of the people within the organization.
So so I need to be able to generate value that from the customer's perspective, I've got to do it in a way that gives me profit, and I want to grow my people, because what we talked about is rethinking. When we talked about rethinking the core, we said, instead of having the core. Traditionally, the core of the business, as you recall, is to, has been the ability to generate a result for the client that also gives you profit.
(05:53):
And the people are the, you know, the groups that actually do that. And we said, Well, the only way this works is, if you actually include the people as part of the core. So it's not just the ability to generate. The result is the core. The people in their, you know, in individual teams of knowledge workers
are the ones that are actually achieving that result for the customer and at the profit. And then, as a result, what they get is, they get professional growth. So we're claiming we got to give them professional growth as well as part of the core. Okay? Given that, that's the case. It's like everything anybody does has got to either increase customer value, protect my profit or grow my people. Now think about it. My finance department protects my profit.
(06:34):
Okay. Getting invoicing right? Keeps my customers happy. I'm not over billing them. So that kind of contributes to that, too. My production team. They're all about generating that that the value for the customer. My salespeople are actually making a promise to my customer that they'll get the value of that stuff, you know, the Hr. Is making sure that the people get what they need so that they can actually accomplish those things. And I do need to make sure that there's professional growth actively going on for my people. And again.
(07:03):
you know that if if I focus on those things that actually that actually works real. Well. Now, the other half of that okay is is
when I look at it from my people's perspective. Okay, what is it that they want? Well.
they want to master more skills. Because again, in an expertise driven business, they want to master the skills they want to continue to learn and grow as professionals in their thing, whether it's a professional service, whether it's skill, trade, whether it's training and development wherever they are, they want to be able to master more skills. The second thing they want to do is they obviously want to develop their career, their profession.
(07:40):
Okay, people in an expertise, driven environment want, you know, grow in their profession and the other thing they want.
and they want to be able to contribute more to other people. If I've hired right. I'm dealing with people who really want to contribute to other people, so they want to contribute to clients, but they also want to contribute to each other as well. So I've got those 3 things are really what I'm looking for, you know, or that the the my people are looking for, and as far as I'm concerned, it needs to create value for the customer. Give me more profit, or, you know, support the growth of the people
(08:13):
in there, as far as that's concerned. So it's actually a very specific strategic objective. I have when I'm talking about growing my people.
Govindh Jayaraman (08:20):
Yeah.
Michael Walsh (08:21):
So far so good.
Govindh Jayaraman (08:22):
So far. So good. Yeah, alright.
Michael Walsh (08:24):
Go ahead!
Govindh Jayaraman (08:25):
No, no, continue.
Michael Walsh (08:26):
I was. Gonna I was just gonna move on from there. Can we say everything is about results?
So I'm not.
You know. I'm not saying, Well, I want you to do this process or that process or this thing. And and yeah, we are going to teach them processes. But the bottom line is.
I need to have them learn about results. What are the results that we expect? Remember, when we talked about the Social Contract, we said, each person needs to be able to deliver individual results, and
(08:53):
we also want them to learn how to work with each other, to deliver collective results that are larger than any single person I can provide. Now with that. If I do one and 2 properly, it allows me to get a stronger corporate culture, and I've got progress towards my my overall purpose. On the other hand, the employees
they want to be paid, but they want to have professional training growth. Because that's what allows their career to move forward. And they want to actually have, you know, meaningful relationships. And they actually want to do meaningful work. Now work becomes meaningful if I'm learning, and it's enhancing my career regardless of the task. So so I know that I need to actually accomplish that. The only way I know how to do that is, if I literally focus on results. And and as you can see on our little napkin there are 4 areas where we focus.
Govindh Jayaraman (09:42):
Yeah. And I think so, the areas or dimensions of results. And I think that really is important to keep in mind. And I don't want to overstate or understate, or
or somehow skip over this idea that
I think that people do really have noble ideas when it comes to training, people say, Oh, this is how you do your job. I want you to.
(10:07):
You know this is this is how you. This is. This is how you you type in this thing into the cash register. This is how you give people change. This is how you take their card for payment. This is how you package the things, all the things that go into it.
But that may not be the result that people are looking at when they're coming to your establishment when they're coming to your store. When they're coming to your business, they may be looking for more than that, and understanding
(10:37):
these dimensions of results helps. You focus your training activity on some of the things that you need to make sure that you're imparting upon your team right.
Michael Walsh (10:47):
Right and the other. The other side of that is as you grow.
Okay, we have a mechanism that we'll talk about after we talk about training and growth of your people. For how do I grow and keep the focus on results?
Because too often, as I grow too big, people will fall into this thing called competency frameworks, and we'll talk about competency frameworks later, and all that stuff. So people are looking at. Well, if I learn more and I grow more than I can get. You know, more more raises and things like that. The problem is is the minute I'm focusing on competency frameworks. I'm not focusing on the actual results that are client results. So again, that'll be a future conversation. Don't want to get into that right now. But but the key is.
(11:31):
you see, the promise of employers regarding people's growth is very specific.
Okay, it's about helping them develop their ability to generate results that the company produces. That's the promise. They don't promise to have their inner communication be wonderful or their conflict resolution, you know. Sometimes, if that's needed as part of the results. Then that's fine. But it's got to be tied to an overall objective to how do I generate results that give the customers what they want, and they give me the profit that I want, and or that actually grow. Other people.
Govindh Jayaraman (12:09):
And if we don't communicate what it's tied to, clearly.
people would just tie it to other things. And that's the problem right? And I think many times in organizations we fail to clearly tie
their activity to a result that is actually relevant and valued by our clients and relevant and valued by the company in terms of profit and shareholders. Those things are loosely
(12:39):
tied together. People are making leaps of logic. It sits in those invisible communication channels we talked about before. Everybody's got a different story. And when that happens
it can't be all about results, because people are thinking about different things. People think they're contributing to it when they're not. And this is why it's so important. So let's go through these dimensions of results. You've got 4 or 3 circles
(13:01):
in sort of a bed.
Let's talk about this.
Michael Walsh (13:04):
Okay? So the 1st one is technical results.
So based on whatever the company's expertise is, I mean, if I'm in an expert driven organization or an expertise driven services company. Then then, you know, I want to continue to grow as a professional with the technical expertise, and that one all by itself is huge, because there are so many different layers to to grow. And you know, for growth and learning, as far as that's concerned. So it's
(13:31):
absolutely one of the aspects that continues to occur on an ongoing basis, because the stronger the expertise of my people.
the stronger the deliverable. My clients will get, you know, bigger value for their buck, as far as that's concerned.
Govindh Jayaraman (13:44):
Yeah. And this is probably the one where people spend the most time, because it's something that's.
you know. Generally speaking, acquirable in the world. You can find
places to train people with technical expertise. Right?
Michael Walsh (13:57):
Absolutely whether I'm a medical doctor, whether I'm a physical therapist, whether I'm a chiropractor, whether I'm a massage therapist, or whether I'm an architect, an engineer, whether I'm whether I conduct training, whether I'm actually a stone and tile person, you know, or whether I'm a quantity surveyor or doesn't matter what you're doing, whether it's technical trades, skilled skilled trades, you know, technical trades
(14:22):
or professional services, or anything. That's you know, e-learning companies, I mean, it doesn't matter what kind of company, if it's based on the expertise of their people. There's lots and lots of room to grow, and people are really good at tapping that because they know that they have to keep growing, that although to do it in an organized manner gets really interesting. And the question is, how do I do it so that I'm not
(14:46):
competing with the ability to generate the result for the client. And that's what we'll talk about our next napkin. But so technical results one.
Govindh Jayaraman (14:54):
Okay, the next one being financial results.
Michael Walsh (14:57):
Correct. So so financial results that's to generate results that are fiscally feasible and sustainable.
In other words, I have to be able to deliver for my client in a way that's within the mandate they've requested, and that leaves our company with a profit, because the company doesn't have a profit. You know what they say. A business without a profit
is a hobby.
Govindh Jayaraman (15:17):
Yes.
Michael Walsh (15:18):
Okay? So we don't want to turn the business into a hobby. Well, because that's not sustainable for the benefit of the employees, because they won't have a place to work eventually. So that's not good. So so the key is, how do I, you know? And especially when people go to different levels. The more they understand about the fiscal sensitivities associated with their with their profession or their craft, the better everything goes.
(15:40):
And so. And that's 1 of the areas that people just assume and they don't get training on. But that is one of the dimensions of training. And again, there's tons of depth in that side.
Govindh Jayaraman (15:49):
Yeah.
and tons of depth in that side. But this is starting to become a little bit more of an area which is a little bit more of the secret sauce of an organization. Some organizations are really good at this, and obviously deliver a lot of freedom to the leadership of the organization when they do that right.
Michael Walsh (16:07):
Absolutely, although it's interesting, because in a lot of in a lot of service based businesses, especially what I'll call social services. Okay,
people don't like the ugly P word. You know that profit motivation.
you know, because they're like, well, we're not about here just for profit. We want to make sure we take care of our people. And I say, Okay, so does it need to be cost effective? Oh, yeah, it has to be cost effective. Otherwise we can't afford to do. Okay, so let's not call it profitable. Let's call cost effective. And they're like, Oh, okay, we're good with that. In other words.
(16:38):
The other thing that people get concerned about is that if I talk about the fiscal aspects
I may risk putting my people under my thumb, or they may feel like I've got them under my thumb. And as a result, I'm just driving for a number.
and that's a real valid fear that people have. Because too often, if you look at 20th century business, that's exactly what happened is, people became a cog in the system, and their job was to spit out profit. Well, no, the fiscal aspects of the business. You still need to keep track of them, because you don't have a sustainable business without that.
(17:15):
So the and the other side of it is, I can look at what are the training needs, I need to, you know, provide for people to support them so that it is fiscally sustainable, because if it's not fiscally sustainable, you know, what?
What do they say if your output or your yeah, if your output exceeds your income.
(17:37):
your upkeep will be your downfall.
Okay. So in other words, I can't spend more than I make. I gotta make sure that works. So I want to grow the expertise of my people, while at the same time keeping myself within the bounds of what actually continues to work. Let's just say that
it doesn't have to be having people under your thumb. In fact, as we continue along with this whole series, you'll see how it's anything but that.
Govindh Jayaraman (18:04):
And and the thing is, if you rethink it, going back to the core, if you rethink the core, if you rethink all of this stuff
to make it more inclusive and aligned.
strategically aligned. Then it is not putting people under their thumb. It is making sure that people understand
what needs to be done to drive the results of the organization. What is important
(18:28):
to to be part of the core right.
Michael Walsh (18:31):
And what we'll talk about our next session is, how do we actually have that? Not just be what what's in the best service, or the best you know.
the best for the corporation.
It's also what's best for them.
Govindh Jayaraman (18:44):
Yeah. And I said.
Michael Walsh (18:45):
It will also be best for them, not just the organization. Because if you don't align that stuff, they're like, okay, well, you know, they're claiming not to have me under the thumb. They're claiming that I'm not a cog in the system, and then they proceed to treat me like a cog in the system when it's under someone's lump. And they made it other pretty words. Well, no, it's actually not that. So we you're gonna have to stay tuned to next episode for that one.
Govindh Jayaraman (19:05):
Yeah, exactly.
All right. So so
dimension result number one was technical. Then we went to financial number 3 is human. What does that mean?
Michael Walsh (19:16):
Okay, so here's the thing. What you want.
See? Part of the result is, how do we make it easier
to work with each other and build stronger relationships with clients and with customers and with each other. So so what we find is okay. So, Govin, you've been on different teams over time.
When you have people that really communicate well, and they just sort of jive. How productive are those teams.
Govindh Jayaraman (19:42):
Unbelievably.
Michael Walsh (19:43):
And how about profitable?
Govindh Jayaraman (19:45):
Always.
Michael Walsh (19:46):
See so part of the results. And I have you also been on teams where it's not been like that, where they it's kind of been like, you know, lack of communication, and people stumbling and stuff like that.
Govindh Jayaraman (19:57):
Yeah.
Michael Walsh (19:58):
And what about the profitability of those teams.
Govindh Jayaraman (20:00):
Not sustainable. Let's put it that way. I mean, you could have profit for a while, but it's whack-a-mole.
Michael Walsh (20:06):
How much fun is it working there?
Govindh Jayaraman (20:08):
None.
Michael Walsh (20:09):
You see. So the truth is that the stuff we're talking about aligns for everybody. So it's better for the company, because the owners are more profitable, but at the same time it's better for everybody, because everybody enjoys the process they're able to learn. They're able to contribute. They're able to have more fun. And they're actually able to appreciate and grow relationships where everybody wins. Now, it's not like some
(20:31):
well intended Pollyanna Kumbaya around the campfire thing. It's actually just functionally working together to accomplish something that everybody feels good about in a way that works for each other. And as long as we create an environment that allows for that, we're in pretty good shape. So part of that's the human result. How do we actually make it easier to work with each other. How do we make it easier to develop those relationships with our clients and customers? And that's when I talk about human results. That's a dimension of results.
(21:00):
and that takes conscious, active work.
But if somebody sorry go ahead.
Govindh Jayaraman (21:07):
No, no, I think this is so important, because I think that when people think about
strategy and systems and processes they tend to, there's a tendency to get more complex. But truly
strategy is easier with, you know, it's faster, easier, permanent, simple. And while the execution can be adaptable, this idea of the human element. How do we make it easier if we're always thinking about? How do we make it easier? How do we make it easier for us to relate to each other within the team. And how do we make it easier for us to relate to our customers? How do we make it easier to relate with leadership all of these factors
(21:52):
that that is where strategy really lives. Right.
Michael Walsh (21:56):
Now it's interesting. You bring that up because and I don't know whether we've talked about this before. But if we haven't, I'm gonna talk about it here. And if we have, I'm well, gonna talk about it here, anyway.
So we've talked a lot about a lot of the over the course of this series.
As a company grows it will outstrip its structures time and time and time again it's constantly outstripping its structures. So what happens is. And now, while it's outstripping its structures, the company's adding people.
(22:26):
So I've got a compound effect of structures that are inadequate and need to be replaced combined with more people, which makes things more complex. I think we have referred to this before.
Govindh Jayaraman (22:36):
It's up.
Michael Walsh (22:37):
As it gets more complex, it gets freakier to have to deal with. So what I then try to do is to put in structures that'll constrain my people and try to get them to do what I need them to do.
Okay, what we're talking about is the opposite of that. You see, that's that's building a system like a well oiled machine. If I want to build an intelligent ecosystem, it has to be built for everybody, which means this, this larger, more complex group of people? I actually have to figure out, how do I set up structures that actually make it easier for them to bring their best. Now, the good news on this is, if I look at the development of my structures with that perspective in mind.
(23:18):
it's actually easier to come up with them. So is it. Is it obvious? No, it's not always obvious. But but I tell you there are ways to do it. How do I build structures that really make it easier for people to bring their best? The truth is, if I've hired right, I've got, you know, a company full of people who want to bring their best I can get in their way by constraining systems, and I got to tell you I will lose their commitment very quickly.
(23:42):
But if I, if I keep focusing on, how do I bring those structures in place that will support people to be their best, that this ties into the human result. So as I outstrip my structures, what am I bringing to the table to continue to make it easier for people to actually do the stuff they want to be doing, and as it relates to generating results for clients, for the company and for the people themselves, in terms of their professional growth.
(24:07):
Does that make sense.
Govindh Jayaraman (24:09):
It does. It makes a lot of sense. And and I think this idea, when you talk about a stripping structures, it's as simple as you know, it can be. As I say, simple. It's not simple outgrowing an accounting system.
but it can be also just reporting structures. It can be collaboration structures. It can be technical approval structures. And this is why I think the dimensions of results are so important because you're talking about technical, financial, human. And the last one being s sustainable. What are you referring to? There.
Michael Walsh (24:39):
Well, actually, let's go back to what you said before, because that directly hits the sustainable. So you say, you know, I'm growing the accounting system. What if I grow the accounting team? I now need 6 people, and I've got 4. And I try to. You know, I'm running people thin. Okay, I need the sustainability results. I need to generate the results without wearing my people out.
okay or without unnecessarily using up other resources that I'm gonna need in order to flourish over the longer period of time.
(25:08):
So I need to make sure that we're sustainable. I need to make sure that we have enough profit coming in the door so that we can fund the growth that we need. So we can fund that new accounting system so we can fund those 2 extra people in the finance department so that we can fund the customer service personnel that actually support the sales effort and the production effort so that people can actually work really well together. And I've got to figure out, how do I do that? Well, guess what?
(25:32):
That's a dimension of results.
So we're looking at the technical results. We're looking at the financial results. We're looking at the human results as well as the sustainability of the results. So that we actually.
I mean, if somebody's learning in all 4 of those dimensions, do you actually get how much depth they'll gain in terms of their own career development.
Govindh Jayaraman (25:58):
Yeah, it's incredible.
Michael Walsh (26:00):
So so there's no shortage of stuff to do there.
The key is. How do you?
How do you do that without actually like displaying the owners and the and the senior leaders so thin that they that they they're focused on their people rather than the actual rather than the actual
you know, results for the clients.
Govindh Jayaraman (26:20):
Yeah. And I think this is, I want to bring it back to this.
The the end goal here is winning freedom in the business from the business, and because of the business. So freedom in the business, freedom from the business and freedom because of the business and the
these are the ways. These are the considerations. This series is all about the tools that we need to consider.
(26:45):
so that we can achieve that outcome, correct.
Michael Walsh (26:48):
Absolutely and and and you know, and while each of these 4 dimensions of results are based on a focus on client deliverables. Okay, there's plenty there for people to learn. Okay from the owners. There's plenty of them there to learn from the leaders and the managers, and there's also plenty for them to learn from each other.
(27:10):
So the thing is that. And this is the stuff that actually helps them grow in their career.
But it's it also, it also aligns with the very specific promise that employers have, which is to make sure that people's growth is very specific. Because what we said we do is we'd actually help them develop their ability to generate results.
(27:34):
Okay? And it's the results that the client produce or that the company produces for its clients. It's owners. And and you know each other. Basically. So so we're very specific. These are dimensions. There's tons of depth and and breadth in the dimensions. Nobody's gonna run short on it. And it's still inside a very tight system that allows people to grow that way. So rather than just sort of brainstorming about possible things people could learn.
(27:59):
It's actually you really are committed to training people on the things that matter to them, matter to the company and matter to the customer.
Govindh Jayaraman (28:08):
Yeah, and helping them understand the link
that is important as opposed to filling that gap with things that they think it could be, but
really don't understand.
Michael Walsh (28:20):
But the other side of that is that
it also allows them to grow their depth and breadth as professionals. There's.
Govindh Jayaraman (28:27):
A little.
Michael Walsh (28:28):
Stuff to learn in there.
Govindh Jayaraman (28:30):
Yeah. And there's a whole conversation we can have about passion, and we're going to get there in a second. But, Michael, thank you.
Another great episode.
Michael Walsh (28:38):
Welcome!
Michael Walsh. Welcome back to paper, napkin wisdom.
We're laying down another stone today in this pathway.
Michael Walsh (00:08):
Absolutely.
Govindh Jayaraman (00:09):
Yeah, this is exciting. So if this is the 1st one here the 1st time you're here, that's great. But this is part of a series. This is a special series where we're talking about
laying down these specific stones in a pathway, ultimately to win freedom in the business and from the business. And and we started talking about the 4 danger zones
(00:31):
that are hidden from most companies as they scale the danger zones relating to people and the exponential relationships, one-on-one relationships that occur as we grow an organization, the 4 driving influences of human behavior which led us to rethinking the core of the business.
the social contract between the owner and individual employees within an organization and the last episode we talked about hiring smart and hiring smart being, you know, half the game. And and that brings us to today's napkin, which is
(01:07):
part of the rest of the game which is training and growing your people.
It's all about results. And then, right underneath that in a box you have the dimensions of the results.
What does this mean, Michael?
Michael Walsh (01:20):
Okay. So if you're trying to gain freedom in your business.
it really means that you get to do the parts that you love and that are strategic in terms of the growth of the business.
When you're looking for freedom from your business, you want to be able to take more time off. And if you're looking for freedom because of your business, you're really looking at, how do I grow the asset value? But also, how do I grow the impact that my organization can actually provide. Okay?
(01:49):
And it's got to be able to expand without spreading me so thin that I become a slave to the business. So when so when I look at this
I can't do the stuff that I love or the stuff that's strategically significant unless I've grown the people in my business? Who are the people who actually generate the results, unless I've given them access to grow sufficiently that they can do it and take care of my clients and customers, or our collective clients and customers. I don't get any freedom from the business if I can't leave.
(02:19):
so my people need to be strong for me to be able to leave, and I need to have enough of them that are strong, and the asset value of the business isn't worth much if I'm the core of everything, and it has to revolve around me the minute I leave the asset value goes away, and there's only so much impact I can have on my own. So so one of the elements, I mean, we talk like you said we talked last time about hiring smart, you know. Half the game is who you get in your doors, but then
(02:43):
the other half is like, what do I do when I get them in my doors. And so the question is, how do I? How do I design
the training and growth of my people cause? I gotta tell you a lot of times. People say, you know, training growth, your people. Yeah, yeah, it's another to do on the list. Listen. It's everything we can do to get our products and services. And again, we're dealing with service based businesses, or businesses with a strong service component, even if they are a product
(03:10):
that are based in the expertise of their people. So if I need the expertise of my people to do this stuff, if I'm not training and growing them. I'm going to have a problem in terms of a number of like my ability to gain that freedom. But the other side of it is the reason people don't do that
is because they feel like it's everything I can do to deliver. I don't have time to train them on top of that it feels like I've got competing priorities. And the reason that feels like you've got competing priorities is because you're just not doing it right yet.
(03:41):
Now that's not say there's anything wrong with an individual or business owner. It's just if they haven't grown beyond a certain size, they just don't know how to align
performance of actually achieving the results for clients and growing their people, they should not have to do them concurrently.
Govindh Jayaraman (04:01):
Yeah. So I think this is super super important.
I think it's really
important. Also because you're talking about training and growth of a business training and growth of the people within the business, and I think a lot of people think that they're training them. Oh, I'm going to train them on how to do their job.
(04:21):
That's not
what you're saying. I mean, you're saying, Yeah, you got to train them in the business. But you're talking about results. Train them in delivering results.
Right? I mean, that's very different.
Michael Walsh (04:37):
I, even though it looks the same.
Yeah, it's the same thing. Well, kind of, but not really.
Govindh Jayaraman (04:45):
Let's talk about the similarities and why people feel that way. And then let's get into the differences.
Michael Walsh (04:51):
Well, the the 1st thing I want to do is, can I put a step in before that.
Govindh Jayaraman (04:54):
Sure, yeah, yeah.
Michael Walsh (04:55):
It surprises you that I might want to do that.
Govindh Jayaraman (04:57):
Sort of a pattern. I ask for something. You give me something else.
Michael Walsh (05:00):
Yeah, it's really good.
Govindh Jayaraman (05:01):
Good.
Michael Walsh (05:02):
Yeah, we'll eventually get to that.
Govindh Jayaraman (05:03):
Yeah.
Michael Walsh (05:04):
Okay. So here's the thing.
Everything. Okay. A business generates is designed directly to address one of the 3 elements of the value exchange.
It's either got to increase the customer value.
It's got to protect and grow profit.
(05:24):
or it's got to contribute to the professional growth of the people within the organization.
So so I need to be able to generate value that from the customer's perspective, I've got to do it in a way that gives me profit, and I want to grow my people, because what we talked about is rethinking. When we talked about rethinking the core, we said, instead of having the core. Traditionally, the core of the business, as you recall, is to, has been the ability to generate a result for the client that also gives you profit.
(05:53):
And the people are the, you know, the groups that actually do that. And we said, Well, the only way this works is, if you actually include the people as part of the core. So it's not just the ability to generate. The result is the core. The people in their, you know, in individual teams of knowledge workers
are the ones that are actually achieving that result for the customer and at the profit. And then, as a result, what they get is, they get professional growth. So we're claiming we got to give them professional growth as well as part of the core. Okay? Given that, that's the case. It's like everything anybody does has got to either increase customer value, protect my profit or grow my people. Now think about it. My finance department protects my profit.
(06:34):
Okay. Getting invoicing right? Keeps my customers happy. I'm not over billing them. So that kind of contributes to that, too. My production team. They're all about generating that that the value for the customer. My salespeople are actually making a promise to my customer that they'll get the value of that stuff, you know, the Hr. Is making sure that the people get what they need so that they can actually accomplish those things. And I do need to make sure that there's professional growth actively going on for my people. And again.
(07:03):
you know that if if I focus on those things that actually that actually works real. Well. Now, the other half of that okay is is
when I look at it from my people's perspective. Okay, what is it that they want? Well.
they want to master more skills. Because again, in an expertise driven business, they want to master the skills they want to continue to learn and grow as professionals in their thing, whether it's a professional service, whether it's skill, trade, whether it's training and development wherever they are, they want to be able to master more skills. The second thing they want to do is they obviously want to develop their career, their profession.
(07:40):
Okay, people in an expertise, driven environment want, you know, grow in their profession and the other thing they want.
and they want to be able to contribute more to other people. If I've hired right. I'm dealing with people who really want to contribute to other people, so they want to contribute to clients, but they also want to contribute to each other as well. So I've got those 3 things are really what I'm looking for, you know, or that the the my people are looking for, and as far as I'm concerned, it needs to create value for the customer. Give me more profit, or, you know, support the growth of the people
(08:13):
in there, as far as that's concerned. So it's actually a very specific strategic objective. I have when I'm talking about growing my people.
Govindh Jayaraman (08:20):
Yeah.
Michael Walsh (08:21):
So far so good.
Govindh Jayaraman (08:22):
So far. So good. Yeah, alright.
Michael Walsh (08:24):
Go ahead!
Govindh Jayaraman (08:25):
No, no, continue.
Michael Walsh (08:26):
I was. Gonna I was just gonna move on from there. Can we say everything is about results?
So I'm not.
You know. I'm not saying, Well, I want you to do this process or that process or this thing. And and yeah, we are going to teach them processes. But the bottom line is.
I need to have them learn about results. What are the results that we expect? Remember, when we talked about the Social Contract, we said, each person needs to be able to deliver individual results, and
(08:53):
we also want them to learn how to work with each other, to deliver collective results that are larger than any single person I can provide. Now with that. If I do one and 2 properly, it allows me to get a stronger corporate culture, and I've got progress towards my my overall purpose. On the other hand, the employees
they want to be paid, but they want to have professional training growth. Because that's what allows their career to move forward. And they want to actually have, you know, meaningful relationships. And they actually want to do meaningful work. Now work becomes meaningful if I'm learning, and it's enhancing my career regardless of the task. So so I know that I need to actually accomplish that. The only way I know how to do that is, if I literally focus on results. And and as you can see on our little napkin there are 4 areas where we focus.
Govindh Jayaraman (09:42):
Yeah. And I think so, the areas or dimensions of results. And I think that really is important to keep in mind. And I don't want to overstate or understate, or
or somehow skip over this idea that
I think that people do really have noble ideas when it comes to training, people say, Oh, this is how you do your job. I want you to.
(10:07):
You know this is this is how you. This is. This is how you you type in this thing into the cash register. This is how you give people change. This is how you take their card for payment. This is how you package the things, all the things that go into it.
But that may not be the result that people are looking at when they're coming to your establishment when they're coming to your store. When they're coming to your business, they may be looking for more than that, and understanding
(10:37):
these dimensions of results helps. You focus your training activity on some of the things that you need to make sure that you're imparting upon your team right.
Michael Walsh (10:47):
Right and the other. The other side of that is as you grow.
Okay, we have a mechanism that we'll talk about after we talk about training and growth of your people. For how do I grow and keep the focus on results?
Because too often, as I grow too big, people will fall into this thing called competency frameworks, and we'll talk about competency frameworks later, and all that stuff. So people are looking at. Well, if I learn more and I grow more than I can get. You know, more more raises and things like that. The problem is is the minute I'm focusing on competency frameworks. I'm not focusing on the actual results that are client results. So again, that'll be a future conversation. Don't want to get into that right now. But but the key is.
(11:31):
you see, the promise of employers regarding people's growth is very specific.
Okay, it's about helping them develop their ability to generate results that the company produces. That's the promise. They don't promise to have their inner communication be wonderful or their conflict resolution, you know. Sometimes, if that's needed as part of the results. Then that's fine. But it's got to be tied to an overall objective to how do I generate results that give the customers what they want, and they give me the profit that I want, and or that actually grow. Other people.
Govindh Jayaraman (12:09):
And if we don't communicate what it's tied to, clearly.
people would just tie it to other things. And that's the problem right? And I think many times in organizations we fail to clearly tie
their activity to a result that is actually relevant and valued by our clients and relevant and valued by the company in terms of profit and shareholders. Those things are loosely
(12:39):
tied together. People are making leaps of logic. It sits in those invisible communication channels we talked about before. Everybody's got a different story. And when that happens
it can't be all about results, because people are thinking about different things. People think they're contributing to it when they're not. And this is why it's so important. So let's go through these dimensions of results. You've got 4 or 3 circles
(13:01):
in sort of a bed.
Let's talk about this.
Michael Walsh (13:04):
Okay? So the 1st one is technical results.
So based on whatever the company's expertise is, I mean, if I'm in an expert driven organization or an expertise driven services company. Then then, you know, I want to continue to grow as a professional with the technical expertise, and that one all by itself is huge, because there are so many different layers to to grow. And you know, for growth and learning, as far as that's concerned. So it's
(13:31):
absolutely one of the aspects that continues to occur on an ongoing basis, because the stronger the expertise of my people.
the stronger the deliverable. My clients will get, you know, bigger value for their buck, as far as that's concerned.
Govindh Jayaraman (13:44):
Yeah. And this is probably the one where people spend the most time, because it's something that's.
you know. Generally speaking, acquirable in the world. You can find
places to train people with technical expertise. Right?
Michael Walsh (13:57):
Absolutely whether I'm a medical doctor, whether I'm a physical therapist, whether I'm a chiropractor, whether I'm a massage therapist, or whether I'm an architect, an engineer, whether I'm whether I conduct training, whether I'm actually a stone and tile person, you know, or whether I'm a quantity surveyor or doesn't matter what you're doing, whether it's technical trades, skilled skilled trades, you know, technical trades
(14:22):
or professional services, or anything. That's you know, e-learning companies, I mean, it doesn't matter what kind of company, if it's based on the expertise of their people. There's lots and lots of room to grow, and people are really good at tapping that because they know that they have to keep growing, that although to do it in an organized manner gets really interesting. And the question is, how do I do it so that I'm not
(14:46):
competing with the ability to generate the result for the client. And that's what we'll talk about our next napkin. But so technical results one.
Govindh Jayaraman (14:54):
Okay, the next one being financial results.
Michael Walsh (14:57):
Correct. So so financial results that's to generate results that are fiscally feasible and sustainable.
In other words, I have to be able to deliver for my client in a way that's within the mandate they've requested, and that leaves our company with a profit, because the company doesn't have a profit. You know what they say. A business without a profit
is a hobby.
Govindh Jayaraman (15:17):
Yes.
Michael Walsh (15:18):
Okay? So we don't want to turn the business into a hobby. Well, because that's not sustainable for the benefit of the employees, because they won't have a place to work eventually. So that's not good. So so the key is, how do I, you know? And especially when people go to different levels. The more they understand about the fiscal sensitivities associated with their with their profession or their craft, the better everything goes.
(15:40):
And so. And that's 1 of the areas that people just assume and they don't get training on. But that is one of the dimensions of training. And again, there's tons of depth in that side.
Govindh Jayaraman (15:49):
Yeah.
and tons of depth in that side. But this is starting to become a little bit more of an area which is a little bit more of the secret sauce of an organization. Some organizations are really good at this, and obviously deliver a lot of freedom to the leadership of the organization when they do that right.
Michael Walsh (16:07):
Absolutely, although it's interesting, because in a lot of in a lot of service based businesses, especially what I'll call social services. Okay,
people don't like the ugly P word. You know that profit motivation.
you know, because they're like, well, we're not about here just for profit. We want to make sure we take care of our people. And I say, Okay, so does it need to be cost effective? Oh, yeah, it has to be cost effective. Otherwise we can't afford to do. Okay, so let's not call it profitable. Let's call cost effective. And they're like, Oh, okay, we're good with that. In other words.
(16:38):
The other thing that people get concerned about is that if I talk about the fiscal aspects
I may risk putting my people under my thumb, or they may feel like I've got them under my thumb. And as a result, I'm just driving for a number.
and that's a real valid fear that people have. Because too often, if you look at 20th century business, that's exactly what happened is, people became a cog in the system, and their job was to spit out profit. Well, no, the fiscal aspects of the business. You still need to keep track of them, because you don't have a sustainable business without that.
(17:15):
So the and the other side of it is, I can look at what are the training needs, I need to, you know, provide for people to support them so that it is fiscally sustainable, because if it's not fiscally sustainable, you know, what?
What do they say if your output or your yeah, if your output exceeds your income.
(17:37):
your upkeep will be your downfall.
Okay. So in other words, I can't spend more than I make. I gotta make sure that works. So I want to grow the expertise of my people, while at the same time keeping myself within the bounds of what actually continues to work. Let's just say that
it doesn't have to be having people under your thumb. In fact, as we continue along with this whole series, you'll see how it's anything but that.
Govindh Jayaraman (18:04):
And and the thing is, if you rethink it, going back to the core, if you rethink the core, if you rethink all of this stuff
to make it more inclusive and aligned.
strategically aligned. Then it is not putting people under their thumb. It is making sure that people understand
what needs to be done to drive the results of the organization. What is important
(18:28):
to to be part of the core right.
Michael Walsh (18:31):
And what we'll talk about our next session is, how do we actually have that? Not just be what what's in the best service, or the best you know.
the best for the corporation.
It's also what's best for them.
Govindh Jayaraman (18:44):
Yeah. And I said.
Michael Walsh (18:45):
It will also be best for them, not just the organization. Because if you don't align that stuff, they're like, okay, well, you know, they're claiming not to have me under the thumb. They're claiming that I'm not a cog in the system, and then they proceed to treat me like a cog in the system when it's under someone's lump. And they made it other pretty words. Well, no, it's actually not that. So we you're gonna have to stay tuned to next episode for that one.
Govindh Jayaraman (19:05):
Yeah, exactly.
All right. So so
dimension result number one was technical. Then we went to financial number 3 is human. What does that mean?
Michael Walsh (19:16):
Okay, so here's the thing. What you want.
See? Part of the result is, how do we make it easier
to work with each other and build stronger relationships with clients and with customers and with each other. So so what we find is okay. So, Govin, you've been on different teams over time.
When you have people that really communicate well, and they just sort of jive. How productive are those teams.
Govindh Jayaraman (19:42):
Unbelievably.
Michael Walsh (19:43):
And how about profitable?
Govindh Jayaraman (19:45):
Always.
Michael Walsh (19:46):
See so part of the results. And I have you also been on teams where it's not been like that, where they it's kind of been like, you know, lack of communication, and people stumbling and stuff like that.
Govindh Jayaraman (19:57):
Yeah.
Michael Walsh (19:58):
And what about the profitability of those teams.
Govindh Jayaraman (20:00):
Not sustainable. Let's put it that way. I mean, you could have profit for a while, but it's whack-a-mole.
Michael Walsh (20:06):
How much fun is it working there?
Govindh Jayaraman (20:08):
None.
Michael Walsh (20:09):
You see. So the truth is that the stuff we're talking about aligns for everybody. So it's better for the company, because the owners are more profitable, but at the same time it's better for everybody, because everybody enjoys the process they're able to learn. They're able to contribute. They're able to have more fun. And they're actually able to appreciate and grow relationships where everybody wins. Now, it's not like some
(20:31):
well intended Pollyanna Kumbaya around the campfire thing. It's actually just functionally working together to accomplish something that everybody feels good about in a way that works for each other. And as long as we create an environment that allows for that, we're in pretty good shape. So part of that's the human result. How do we actually make it easier to work with each other. How do we make it easier to develop those relationships with our clients and customers? And that's when I talk about human results. That's a dimension of results.
(21:00):
and that takes conscious, active work.
But if somebody sorry go ahead.
Govindh Jayaraman (21:07):
No, no, I think this is so important, because I think that when people think about
strategy and systems and processes they tend to, there's a tendency to get more complex. But truly
strategy is easier with, you know, it's faster, easier, permanent, simple. And while the execution can be adaptable, this idea of the human element. How do we make it easier if we're always thinking about? How do we make it easier? How do we make it easier for us to relate to each other within the team. And how do we make it easier for us to relate to our customers? How do we make it easier to relate with leadership all of these factors
(21:52):
that that is where strategy really lives. Right.
Michael Walsh (21:56):
Now it's interesting. You bring that up because and I don't know whether we've talked about this before. But if we haven't, I'm gonna talk about it here. And if we have, I'm well, gonna talk about it here, anyway.
So we've talked a lot about a lot of the over the course of this series.
As a company grows it will outstrip its structures time and time and time again it's constantly outstripping its structures. So what happens is. And now, while it's outstripping its structures, the company's adding people.
(22:26):
So I've got a compound effect of structures that are inadequate and need to be replaced combined with more people, which makes things more complex. I think we have referred to this before.
Govindh Jayaraman (22:36):
It's up.
Michael Walsh (22:37):
As it gets more complex, it gets freakier to have to deal with. So what I then try to do is to put in structures that'll constrain my people and try to get them to do what I need them to do.
Okay, what we're talking about is the opposite of that. You see, that's that's building a system like a well oiled machine. If I want to build an intelligent ecosystem, it has to be built for everybody, which means this, this larger, more complex group of people? I actually have to figure out, how do I set up structures that actually make it easier for them to bring their best. Now, the good news on this is, if I look at the development of my structures with that perspective in mind.
(23:18):
it's actually easier to come up with them. So is it. Is it obvious? No, it's not always obvious. But but I tell you there are ways to do it. How do I build structures that really make it easier for people to bring their best? The truth is, if I've hired right, I've got, you know, a company full of people who want to bring their best I can get in their way by constraining systems, and I got to tell you I will lose their commitment very quickly.
(23:42):
But if I, if I keep focusing on, how do I bring those structures in place that will support people to be their best, that this ties into the human result. So as I outstrip my structures, what am I bringing to the table to continue to make it easier for people to actually do the stuff they want to be doing, and as it relates to generating results for clients, for the company and for the people themselves, in terms of their professional growth.
(24:07):
Does that make sense.
Govindh Jayaraman (24:09):
It does. It makes a lot of sense. And and I think this idea, when you talk about a stripping structures, it's as simple as you know, it can be. As I say, simple. It's not simple outgrowing an accounting system.
but it can be also just reporting structures. It can be collaboration structures. It can be technical approval structures. And this is why I think the dimensions of results are so important because you're talking about technical, financial, human. And the last one being s sustainable. What are you referring to? There.
Michael Walsh (24:39):
Well, actually, let's go back to what you said before, because that directly hits the sustainable. So you say, you know, I'm growing the accounting system. What if I grow the accounting team? I now need 6 people, and I've got 4. And I try to. You know, I'm running people thin. Okay, I need the sustainability results. I need to generate the results without wearing my people out.
okay or without unnecessarily using up other resources that I'm gonna need in order to flourish over the longer period of time.
(25:08):
So I need to make sure that we're sustainable. I need to make sure that we have enough profit coming in the door so that we can fund the growth that we need. So we can fund that new accounting system so we can fund those 2 extra people in the finance department so that we can fund the customer service personnel that actually support the sales effort and the production effort so that people can actually work really well together. And I've got to figure out, how do I do that? Well, guess what?
(25:32):
That's a dimension of results.
So we're looking at the technical results. We're looking at the financial results. We're looking at the human results as well as the sustainability of the results. So that we actually.
I mean, if somebody's learning in all 4 of those dimensions, do you actually get how much depth they'll gain in terms of their own career development.
Govindh Jayaraman (25:58):
Yeah, it's incredible.
Michael Walsh (26:00):
So so there's no shortage of stuff to do there.
The key is. How do you?
How do you do that without actually like displaying the owners and the and the senior leaders so thin that they that they they're focused on their people rather than the actual rather than the actual
you know, results for the clients.
Govindh Jayaraman (26:20):
Yeah. And I think this is, I want to bring it back to this.
The the end goal here is winning freedom in the business from the business, and because of the business. So freedom in the business, freedom from the business and freedom because of the business and the
these are the ways. These are the considerations. This series is all about the tools that we need to consider.
(26:45):
so that we can achieve that outcome, correct.
Michael Walsh (26:48):
Absolutely and and and you know, and while each of these 4 dimensions of results are based on a focus on client deliverables. Okay, there's plenty there for people to learn. Okay from the owners. There's plenty of them there to learn from the leaders and the managers, and there's also plenty for them to learn from each other.
(27:10):
So the thing is that. And this is the stuff that actually helps them grow in their career.
But it's it also, it also aligns with the very specific promise that employers have, which is to make sure that people's growth is very specific. Because what we said we do is we'd actually help them develop their ability to generate results.
(27:34):
Okay? And it's the results that the client produce or that the company produces for its clients. It's owners. And and you know each other. Basically. So so we're very specific. These are dimensions. There's tons of depth and and breadth in the dimensions. Nobody's gonna run short on it. And it's still inside a very tight system that allows people to grow that way. So rather than just sort of brainstorming about possible things people could learn.
(27:59):
It's actually you really are committed to training people on the things that matter to them, matter to the company and matter to the customer.
Govindh Jayaraman (28:08):
Yeah, and helping them understand the link
that is important as opposed to filling that gap with things that they think it could be, but
really don't understand.
Michael Walsh (28:20):
But the other side of that is that
it also allows them to grow their depth and breadth as professionals. There's.
Govindh Jayaraman (28:27):
A little.
Michael Walsh (28:28):
Stuff to learn in there.
Govindh Jayaraman (28:30):
Yeah. And there's a whole conversation we can have about passion, and we're going to get there in a second. But, Michael, thank you.
Another great episode.
Michael Walsh (28:38):
Welcome!
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The World's Most Dangerous Morning Show, The Breakfast Club, With DJ Envy, Jess Hilarious, And Charlamagne Tha God!
Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.