July 1, 2025 • 42 mins
David Herle, a political strategist, pollster, and principal at The Gandalf Group, has spent decades helping shape public opinion and advising leaders in the highest circles of Canadian politics. From managing campaigns for Prime Minister Paul Martin to shaping the narrative through his influential podcast The Herle Burly, David knows what it means to engage with power—not as an abstract concept, but as something that drives change, shapes nations, and alters lives.
In this episode of Paper Napkin Wisdom, David drops a truth bomb that cuts through the fog of niceties in leadership: “Power is never given away. If you want it, you have to take it.” It’s a reminder that while many of us are waiting for permission, the real leaders—the real changemakers—aren’t asking. They’re stepping up, showing up, and claiming space.
Waiting Is Not a Strategy
Throughout the conversation, David reflects on how much of leadership, whether in politics or business, is about showing the courage to step into uncomfortable roles. “We often think someone will tap us on the shoulder when it's our time,” he says, “but leadership doesn’t work like that.” That kind of passivity, he warns, is dangerous. “If you're waiting to be chosen, you're probably not going to be.”
This is not about arrogance. It’s about intentionality. If you believe you can make a difference, you have a responsibility to act on that belief.
The Currency of Conviction
What separates the leaders we follow from those we forget? According to David, it’s conviction. “People follow people who believe in something—really believe in it,” he explains. “When you speak from conviction, it’s magnetic.” That’s as true in politics as it is in entrepreneurship or activism.
And yet, Herle points out, we’ve built a world where too many leaders are risk-averse. They seek consensus before they speak. “But if you’re always trying to hedge, you’ll never lead anything bold,” he says.
Claiming Power Doesn’t Mean Grabbing Control
While the napkin might read like a manifesto for aggression, David’s tone is more nuanced. Taking power isn’t about domination; it’s about ownership. It's about stepping into your role, your mission, and your ability to create change without waiting for validation.
“When I say ‘take it,’ I mean own the responsibility, own the outcomes,” he shares. “If you want to make something better, act like you’re already in charge of doing that.”
Why Some People Never Get Power—Even When They Deserve It
David talks candidly about watching incredibly talented, smart, and ethical people sit on the sidelines. The reason? They believed merit alone would carry them. “We have this myth that the best rise to the top. That’s just not true,” he says. “You have to push. You have to ask. You have to take.”
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Govindh Jayaraman (00:02):
David Hurley. Welcome to paper napkin wisdom. I'm really excited to be sitting across a microphone with you today.
David Herle (00:10):
Well, I'm I'm a little scared, but we'll see how it goes. Thanks for having me.
Govindh Jayaraman (00:13):
So, so I don't understand why you'd be scared. You're the one with the hockey stick in the background. I don't even have a hockey stick behind me. So like this is.
this is different, right? This.
David Herle (00:24):
I am armed.
Govindh Jayaraman (00:25):
Are armed exactly, exactly. And it's.
David Herle (00:28):
You a lovely acoustic tune on the guitar, or swat you over the head with a hockey stick.
Govindh Jayaraman (00:32):
See lover and a fighter. It's fantastic.
So you shared a great paper napkin with me and given all of the stuff that you've gotten up to in your life. I'm really interested in understanding why you shared this with me, you said.
Power is never given away. If you want it, you have to take it.
(00:53):
Why did you share that with me?
David Herle (00:56):
Well, you know, 1st of all, this is not the most important rule that an ordinary citizen needs to carry around in their head all the time. But it's a
it's. It's a little more relevant to politics, right? And
you asked me to write down something that I had learned over time that had
made a positive impact in my career.
(01:17):
and I really learned that lesson, if I can say it
from the Lord of the Rings, which I'm an enormous fan of. At 1 point I had a company called the Gandalf Group.
and so the lesson of the Lord of the Rings is that that ring of power. Whoever has it doesn't want to give it up will not give it up. It has to. They could lose it, or it could be forcibly taken from them, but they'll never give it up. And as I spent a life in politics.
(01:48):
I came to realize that that was true.
that people don't leave significant positions voluntarily.
And so it's been relevant to me in 2 very important circumstances, one of which is in the
early 2 thousands.
When it was clearly time for Paul Martin to take over from Jean Retchin as leader of the Liberal party and a lot of people.
(02:14):
A lot of people told me at that time you do not have to push him.
He'll leave on his own. He's been there long enough.
He wants to spend time at the cottage with his wife. He wants to spend time with his grandchildren, and I'm like, no.
he wants to be the Prime Minister of Canada. Nobody has ever voluntarily resigned this position.
and he won't be the first.st
(02:35):
And that proved to be correct.
He had to be forced out.
and similarly going back to the last year or so with Justin Trudeau.
You know there were so many people in the Liberal party sitting back and saying.
Surely he'll know it's time to go. He's smart enough to read the polls. His marriage is broken up. All these things he'll he'll leave on his own. He won't do this, and I'm like, no, if something doesn't happen, he's going to lead the party into the next election
(03:03):
because he still thinks he's got a chance.
and to hang on to this job.
And so it took.
I mean, I was. I was voicing this for a long, long time on my podcasts and privately.
but ultimately, if it wasn't for Chrystia Freeland standing up and doing what she did, he would have been the candidate in this election, and the Liberal party would have gotten smoked.
(03:26):
So
my lesson from life is when people have real power, they don't give it up. And if you don't want them to have it anymore, you have to take it from them.
Govindh Jayaraman (03:36):
That's amazing. And I love the reference back to the one ring right? Because it corrupts like good people.
It it, you know. Bilbo was corrupted by the ring.
David Herle (03:49):
Right.
Govindh Jayaraman (03:50):
And.
David Herle (03:50):
And ultimately even Frodo, whom Gandalf chose of all the people on earth
to do this job. Even at the end Frodo wouldn't give it up.
Govindh Jayaraman (03:58):
Yeah, that's right. So there's a powerful lesson in that. And and so look for people listening.
A Liberal party is a party in Canada. But you're not talking about this just being a Liberal party of Canada thing. This same thing plays out.
David Herle (04:14):
Biden.
Govindh Jayaraman (04:15):
Right.
David Herle (04:16):
Go by.
Govindh Jayaraman (04:18):
Right, because he said he was going to do it for one term.
But then.
David Herle (04:22):
Transitional President. Yep.
Govindh Jayaraman (04:24):
Put the ring on, and didn't want to give it up.
David Herle (04:26):
That is correct.
Govindh Jayaraman (04:27):
Everybody does this, and it's not just Liberals. It's Conservatives. Do this, too. Right?
David Herle (04:32):
It's not partisan. It's human.
Govindh Jayaraman (04:34):
It's human. Why is it like that? What is it about power that helps us lose our way.
or or makes us lose our way or that we lose our way so easily in the face of.
David Herle (04:51):
You know. Maybe it's the element of control over things. I mean, you know, we all like to have control in our own lives. We all like to feel like we're in charge, and that's on a small scale. And when people don't feel that they feel disoriented and alienated.
maybe it's just an extreme version of that that it's just, you know, Henry Kissinger once said when he was engaged to a
(05:14):
a reasonably normal looking woman. He was an unattractive man.
he said. Power is the ultimate aphrodisiac.
And
So there's when you have it. It's obviously intoxicating, and you feel very, very good about yourself and so
(05:35):
I don't know. I've never had it. I've helped people get it, and I've helped remove it from other people, but I've never I've never had it so. I don't know what the feeling is, but I know that.
Govindh Jayaraman (05:46):
But you've been beside them. You've been beside them right? You've been beside them when they're getting, when you know when they're slipping the ring on?
Is it something that you can see happen? Can you see it? Is it obvious.
when people get that power, that something changes about their relationship with it?
David Herle (06:08):
Yeah, I think there is something immediate, but it's also builds over time right? And and you become.
I don't know what was going through Bilbo's or Frodo's mind. But certainly what happens in politicians minds is that they really do come to believe nobody else could do this job
(06:28):
right.
Govindh Jayaraman (06:29):
Yeah.
David Herle (06:29):
And that they're dealing with such weighty issues. And they're dealing with such difficult questions, and they're dealing with them so well in their own mind
that it's impossible for them to imagine that somebody else could come along and do a better job. And, in fact, I believe that sitting on his couch wherever he is right now Justin Trudeau believes he could have won the election probably bigger than Mark Carney did. That's just the nature.
Govindh Jayaraman (06:55):
And is it part of
part of the resilience that people have to face like part of the ordeal of getting the job? In the 1st place is that you have to prove everybody wrong. You have, like no one person
per cycle makes it through the maze to get to that place. So there has to be this like deep seated amount of
(07:16):
resilience in the face of you can't do it. You can't do it. You can't do it. So they're used to shoving that aside right right.
David Herle (07:24):
Very much, very much so, you know Trudeau is a very good example, he would say to you anybody that came up and told him. You can't win this upcoming election. You need to step down.
he would say.
Well, people told me I couldn't do any number of things that I could never be elected, in the 1st place, that I could never be reelected, that, you know, and I've proven people wrong every time I won that boxing match. I am at my best when I'm up against adversity. Any number of rationalizations that belie all of the external realities.
Govindh Jayaraman (07:55):
Right? Right? So so you you sort of come by it honestly, you come by that sort of that ability to to shut down the critics, but when you do that to
completely, you lose the ability to harvest useful information from them. Right?
There's there's useful information in contrarian opinion. There's useful information in people criticizing you, even saying you can't do something.
David Herle (08:20):
Well, this is also one of the things that happens to politicians and leaders in positions is that they are cocooned.
Govindh Jayaraman (08:27):
Yeah.
David Herle (08:27):
And so it is easy for them to not believe that that exists out there.
And you know they can read polling data, but all they are surrounded by are people that are nice to them, who support them
say nice things to them, whether that's in their office or in their caucus, or when they're out meeting Liberals at events, everywhere. They're not confronted with that right. What they're confronted with is support and nurturing, and so
(08:59):
they can.
They can ignore all of that, and they have power. They are regardless of what anybody says about them. They're making decisions that day that will make a difference and make an impact.
And so it's, it's it's all.
It all comes together
in a reality that I you know, I mean, I think it's a pretty amazing stat that nobody
(09:21):
in the history of Canada has woken up on a Tuesday morning and said, I don't want to be the Prime Minister anymore, and I'm going to resign.
Govindh Jayaraman (09:28):
What about the walk in the snow? Right? What about.
David Herle (09:31):
The walk in the snow. Pierre Trudeau.
Govindh Jayaraman (09:33):
Yeah. Pierre Trudeau is walking the street.
David Herle (09:34):
Trudeau had run in the 1980 election.
after having stepped down after losing the 1979 election was recruited by the Liberals to come back and run in 1980,
and promised to resign if elected.
promised to resign before the next election if elected.
(09:56):
He went into the 5th year of his mandate tried everything
to try to get reelected, including a bogus peace mission around the world, where he was shuttling himself from capital to capital, pretending that he was going to be the person that ended the nuclear threat in the world.
(10:18):
and these were all ploys to try to get reelected, and at the end of it. He was, you know, 20 points down to Mulroney and going to get smoked when he quit, and he'd run out of. He'd run out the clock.
There was no time left. He left under extreme duress. There was no walk in the snow, and there's no doubt in my mind from the people I've talked to that knew Pierre Trudeau that if he thought he could have won the 1984 election, he'd have run, despite promising to quit in the previous campaign.
Govindh Jayaraman (10:47):
Right so. And and I only bring that up because that's the only thing that I can think of in lore. Now
contrast that to the American system right in the American system. There's supposed to be a 2 term limit. We'll see whether or not.
David Herle (11:03):
See if it holds. Yeah.
Govindh Jayaraman (11:04):
We'll see if it holds, because I think
the one ring is on someone's finger. He doesn't want to give it up. And and this two-term
structure was put in place
to promote the idea that not only would it be automatic constitutionally taken away from you.
(11:24):
but you would have to give it up. You knew you had to give it up.
Is that is that a positive way of considering
how to transition away from power and make sure that it's not consolidated in one place for too long.
David Herle (11:37):
Now your American examples made me think of an anecdote. You know there are a lot of people
who make the argument that George Washington
is the most important person in the history of American democracy. For this reason he left.
Govindh Jayaraman (11:52):
Right.
David Herle (11:53):
He was the 1st President. He was the general of the army.
Quite likely he could have stayed on had he wanted to right
and he left, and he set the precedent for the country. That that's how it worked.
And
so yeah, I mean, I think there is merit to term limits. To be honest, I heard somebody say it might have been Richard Nixon whom I probably shouldn't quote.
(12:19):
I heard somebody say once something made a lot of sense, it said. You know
you go into office with a set of ideas that you've accumulated over the course of your life.
and you use them up.
and you are. It's impossible for you to regenerate yourself in office. You're too busy doing it. You're no longer doing the reading, the learning, the interaction with other people, the life experiences that brought you to the initial point.
(12:44):
So you know, that's why that's why, eventually, if people stay too long, they start to get run around by the bureaucrats because they're out of ideas, and they're just there now.
Govindh Jayaraman (12:54):
That's amazing. I love that idea, and it's almost like, you know, the guitar is behind you, and and you know there's a
similar.
David Herle (13:04):
Bernie Toppin's guitar.
Govindh Jayaraman (13:05):
Oh, that's pretty cool for everybody listening. Who's Birdie talkings.
David Herle (13:09):
Bernie Toppin is Elton, John's lyricist.
and all of the great songs that you know from Elton, John from the seventies and eighties, and etc. Written on that lyrics were composed on that guitar.
Govindh Jayaraman (13:22):
That is cool.
I'm gonna get distracted for a second. But let's go. Maybe let's play with that for a second, because songwriters are sometimes criticized for losing their perspective on where they were and not being able to write about their new experiences anymore from a different lens. It's almost the same thing, right.
David Herle (13:44):
Totally. It's like, you know, a band is done when their songs are about the rigors of life on the road and the travails of a rock star as opposed to wanting to get laid, and wanting a fast car.
Govindh Jayaraman (13:55):
Right. 6 cars in the 3rd World War. Right? They're only only
3 things worth fighting for. So so in that thinking about that.
that that's sort of the same thing you're saying here when it talks to politicians. Why is it so hard for people in power to have uncomfortable conversations where they actually disagree with somebody where they can actually have.
(14:18):
you know, a
respectful discourse with somebody, and disagree with them, and learn from that. Why is that so hard.
David Herle (14:29):
They just don't put themselves in that position.
I mean I you know. And and
when Kathleen Wynne was the Premier of Ontario.
and people were turning on the on the Liberal Government, and popularity was plummeting.
She went on a listening tour of the province where she had
(14:50):
open town halls all across the province
and advertised them. They weren't partisan things. Come one come. All. People said terrible things to her and asked her terrible questions. She's a remarkably strong person.
and she was able to take that.
But you know I don't know if you've noticed, but the more
authority people have, generally, the less they like to be questioned.
Govindh Jayaraman (15:15):
Right.
And it
I just I just wonder why we fall into this trap because we can intellectually sit there. I mean, we're sitting. We know this to be true, right? You have
surely in your various roles, you you have helped to get
people elected. You've brought people into the Prime minister's office in this in this country more than once.
(15:42):
So with that experience, surely you've
maybe tap them aside on the shoulder and said, Hey.
at some point. And you're going to have to step down at some point.
You're going to run out of ideas at some point. You're gonna have to listen to somebody right.
David Herle (15:57):
You know.
Govindh Jayaraman (15:57):
And yet nobody does so intellectually. People know this to be true, and yet we all fall for the trap, and I think Ceos fall for this trap, too. Right? Like, when you're building a company, you could be at the top of the company, and you're not listening anymore.
There's a way you do things.
David Herle (16:12):
But companies are dealing with that because basically, Ceos don't last much longer than 4 or 5 years anymore, most of them and the board moves them out and brings somebody else back in and bring somebody else in new ideas. New approach.
Govindh Jayaraman (16:25):
Right. And there's an accountability around dollars and cents that doesn't always exist in politics.
David Herle (16:30):
And so the boards of directors do that at about 5 years, and in politics the electorate does that after about 10 years.
Govindh Jayaraman (16:38):
Right right. And so, because very difficult to get reelected after.
David Herle (16:42):
2 terms, or anywhere between 8 and 10 years in office. Very few people get reelected after that.
Govindh Jayaraman (16:48):
Yeah. And and your point, though, is that they're not
giving it away. They're not retiring.
They're having it taken away from them. And sometimes.
David Herle (16:57):
They're like.
Govindh Jayaraman (16:58):
But as well.
David Herle (16:58):
They're like boxers.
right? They fight one election too many, and they get kicked around. And so people only leave these jobs in one of 2 circumstances. Either they are facing imminent and unavoidable electoral defeat.
or they are defeated.
Sometimes they don't run, but they wait till the very end, as I said, with Trudeau or Mulroney, is another classic example of people that went into the 5th year. Is there a way? Is there a chance? Can something happen, and when the clock runs out they say, All right, I'm out of here, and some dope can come in here and carry this steaming hulk for the campaign, but
(17:39):
they don't leave when they think they, when they don't leave until they have to.
Govindh Jayaraman (17:42):
It's almost like that, Jim Carrey. Character in dumb and dumber is like you're saying, I have a chance.
Exactly.
You have one chance in a million that you're going to get elected. Oh, so you're saying I have a chance.
David Herle (17:53):
That's true.
Govindh Jayaraman (17:54):
So you know the the question
like this idea about so let's go back to the Lord of Rings metaphor, because I think it's really great right? I mean, I love that you took it from there, and you're bringing it here. When people put on the one ring, the eye of Sauron would see them right, and that would scare them. It would scare Frodo in the movies. Have you seen him? If you read the book, it scares him into taking the ring off because he's afraid of being seen for wearing the power. Is there a check and balance like that in the real world? Or is it?
(18:27):
Does that just not exist anymore.
David Herle (18:29):
No, that doesn't exist anymore. There's no sauron over top of the one ring. There's just you are the top of the heap.
And
what you say goes. And a bunch of other really important, impressive people are running around listening to what you say and then executing on what you do. I mean, I actually don't have much trouble understanding how much fun that could be.
Govindh Jayaraman (18:50):
Oh, no, I mean, I mean the way when you, when you talk about it that way. It sounds
pretty fun, pretty great, right?
And why would you want to give it up
right? Why would? Why would you want to give it up? So so when you, when you, when you
I just think it's it's interesting.
(19:11):
How do you facilitate? So you do this really? Well, in curse of politics, you, you bring people with different minds, different positions different perspectives. Now none of them are wearing the one ring right.
David Herle (19:23):
Right.
Govindh Jayaraman (19:23):
But they're influential people, very influential people, and you're in your.
David Herle (19:26):
There's an enormous difference between influence and power. I've had a lot of influence. I've never had power. I've never made a decision.
I have advised people who were making decisions.
Govindh Jayaraman (19:37):
And.
David Herle (19:37):
They make the call. I've never made the call right.
Govindh Jayaraman (19:40):
Right.
And and why?
so you're drawing this distinction, and I think it's an important one. But why are you making it so clear that there's a difference between influencing and making the call.
because there's there's a there's a subtle, there's a big well, there's a subtle but big chasm there right.
David Herle (20:02):
Well, if you're an advisor, your advice may be taken. Maybe not, maybe not taken, no matter how close you are to the person, they'll have a different point of view, and it is sometimes, and it is their point of view
that will prevail. So you know, if if you think I'm influential. It's because maybe I can get an idea in front of the person, but I can't make them do it.
(20:22):
And I've you know whether it was Paul Martin or Kathleen Wynn, or any of the other people I've worked with
quite often disagreed with me, and you know occasionally you think, Fuck, I wish I could have made that decision, but I didn't run.
Govindh Jayaraman (20:36):
And I didn't take the power from anybody. I didn't put myself forward and say I'm the person.
Was that a decision like? Did you choose to be a person of influence versus a person of power.
David Herle (20:47):
Just sort of evolved, you know. I think when I 1st got involved in politics back in Saskatchewan at home.
I always assumed I would run. I thought that was the purpose of getting involved in politics, and I didn't really think that people like me. I didn't know, really, that people like me existed.
and I've had a pretty good run in politics. I've had, as you say, lots of influence and lots of opportunity to affect events in a way that's very rewarding.
(21:10):
but I think I always thought I would run, and then it just kind of got away from me. 1st of all, I started moving around. I came to. I went to Montreal to work for a while, and then I moved to Ottawa to work in politics for almost 20 years, and now I'm in Toronto. I don't belong anywhere like where would I run? I'm not a citizen of anywhere. I can't go back to Regina and pretend to be from there.
(21:30):
and
you know everybody in Ottawa that's like me is just a tourist in that town for doing a tour of duty and politics like you're in a general. You're a genuine Ottawa resident. I lived in Ottawa for 20 years. I couldn't find Bells Corners for my life, depended on it.
Govindh Jayaraman (21:47):
Most people can't.
David Herle (21:48):
I heard about the traffic there every day, but I don't know where the fuck that is, and so
I don't. I don't really have a place to run
and you know also, to be honest, life got comfortable.
Govindh Jayaraman (22:04):
Right.
David Herle (22:05):
Life got covered because the job of an member of Parliament is a brutal job.
So I mean, it's just a brutal job like you are in Ottawa for 5 days
working day and night, and then you get on a plane and you fly back to your riding.
and instead of getting a break or catching up with your wife and kids.
(22:29):
You are going steady for those 2 days, from one event to another event to meetings in your riding, to meeting with people who have issues that you need to solve, and going to the Gedwara for this and going to the old folks home for that.
And and and it's just a 7 day, a week, 24 HA day job.
(22:52):
And frankly, many of those people, none of those people have power, and very few of them have influence.
So it is.
it, you know. It's a it's tough to talk yourself into doing that at a certain point in life.
Govindh Jayaraman (23:06):
Yeah. And and I guess that was one of the questions that I was going to get to is, is there a difference between the power of being.
you know, a representative like a member of the House of Representatives, a member of the Senate, a member of the House of Commons here versus being in Cabinet, and, more importantly, the leader of a party right like, I'm thinking about the recent election that we just had. And and
(23:35):
you know Pierre Polyev, leader of the party. No longer has. He's not a member of Parliament
for the 1st time in his adult life. Really, I mean, he's been a Member of Parliament that entire time, and a relatively influential one all that time.
David Herle (23:51):
Defeated a sitting Cabinet Minister in an election I was in charge of, so I'm in a way responsible for him.
Govindh Jayaraman (23:57):
So that's funny. I didn't know that. So so when you think about that, right.
how does Power look for just an Mp. Is it different than is that the same as this power that's never given away?
Do they always want to hold on to it forever?
David Herle (24:16):
No, no, it's not. And people frequently decide they've had enough of being an Mp. It's not like they're devoid of power.
I mean, in their ridings, you know. I mean, people come to them, and they say I'm having trouble getting some immigration papers completed, or I'm having trouble getting this out of the government, or I'm having trouble getting that benefit out of the government, and the Mp. Can go and fix that for them.
(24:40):
That's power.
Govindh Jayaraman (24:41):
But it is power.
David Herle (24:42):
Right. They have access to the system, and they can go in, and they can change a person's life for the better by fixing a problem that they have. That's power. They have less power when they get close to Ottawa.
And you know, a lot of people argue caucuses should have more power than they do. But
frankly, we've gotten to a point where the leader is so central to the electoral choice
(25:07):
like this election was about Kearney versus Paulie. It wasn't even really about Liberal versus Conservative, much less one candidate versus another candidate. Everybody had in their minds the 2 leaders, and so
everybody who's in those 2 caucuses knows that they are there because people voted for their leader, not for them.
Right? And so that's where the power goes and
(25:30):
And so
yeah, it's they're influential. They have. I don't. I don't mean to diminish it too much, you know. Caucus meetings are, and especially if if Kearney goes back to traditional caucus meetings, Trudeau did something really terrible.
Trudeau invited his senior staff
to join caucus meetings, and I should give you a little bit of history caucus is when all the elected members of a party get together, and they do it once a week, and they all meet, and up until Justin Trudeau was the Prime Minister. There was nobody in that room but an elected caucus member, not one person, not a staffer, not anything.
(26:07):
and it was just their time.
Govindh Jayaraman (26:10):
Confidential right? It's like the term is like.
David Herle (26:12):
You can cancel.
Govindh Jayaraman (26:13):
It's in camera, which means that it's behind closed doors. What's said in the room stays in the room. It's actually this really big veil of secrecy around. Really, even what could be on the agenda? Nobody, even.
David Herle (26:25):
No, nobody ever knows no. And if somebody stands up in there and says, Prime Minister, the Minister of Immigration is really messing this up, and we're going to pay a terrible price for this, and you've got to do something about the Minister of Immigration
right?
Well that you can say that in front of your caucus colleagues to the Prime Minister. That's that's that's influence in a big way, right? And
(26:50):
so those caucus meetings. But they change when the staff is there?
Right?
Because, frankly, a lot of times you're going to want to talk about the staff
you're going to want to say to the Prime Minister. I can't get through to you anymore. I've got some shit. I want you to know
right some uncomfortable things about what people are saying to me in my riding about our government.
(27:13):
and I've asked for a meeting for 6 months, and I can't get through right.
And so I hope that Kearney goes back to just making those true caucus meetings, because I think that is one of the few times
when a Prime Minister does encounter the truth.
Govindh Jayaraman (27:31):
Right.
David Herle (27:32):
Okay.
Govindh Jayaraman (27:32):
And that's a powerful thing. The the other thing that I think that's really interesting about
this idea, that power is never given away. And if you want it, you have to take. It
is is that even amongst influencers, right? Because influencers are only influential if they're able to get close to that person.
David Herle (27:52):
Right.
Govindh Jayaraman (27:52):
So I think it's it's it's hard for people to be critical
or indifferent about the things that the person they're supposed to be able to influence
are doing. Isn't it like, if you're you know you're a Liberal strategist for many years, if you're openly critical about them in a conversation, or if there's a debate that otherwise is out of camera, meaning that it's public and out there for everybody to see. And somehow somebody who's Consolidated Power doesn't like what they're saying. You've lost influence over that person because they'll shut you out, won't they?
David Herle (28:31):
Absolutely, absolutely. And you know, to some extent that happened to me in Ottawa over the last couple of years.
because I was so vocal
about the need for Trudeau to go. I was told I was a traitor. I was told I was destroying the morale of the Government. I was told I was hurting the Government's chances for reelection, and I was not part of the inside anymore. I was an outsider. I was a great.
(28:56):
but
you know I had made a decision that I just had to. I mean, the nature of our show is the truth nature of our podcast it only works when the people on it are telling the truth and telling what they think.
And it was clearer as day to me
a while ago that a Trudeau had run out of gas in the tank to be the Prime Minister, but second of all, that Canadians were not going to reelect him, and, in fact, were going to defeat him in a way that rendered the Liberal Party existentially challenged. It wasn't going to be a normal defeat. It was going to be a beating.
Govindh Jayaraman (29:28):
Yeah, it was going to be a pummeling. And you were. You were very vocal about that for many years, I mean, I remember
it had to be at least a couple years ago that you started talking about that. And and that's what I mean. You fall out of favor when you have uncomfortable conversations about what is really happening. And isn't that.
David Herle (29:46):
Well, they say Paul.
Govindh Jayaraman (29:47):
What a shame!
David Herle (29:48):
Team sport, you know, and that means everybody.
Govindh Jayaraman (29:51):
Yeah, but think about that. Like.
we are incapable of having uncomfortable conversations in this current dynamic.
in this consolidation of power, in the place where people are never going to give away the power, and people are not going to listen to the criticism.
What do we need to do to fix that because I think, I think.
(30:11):
look, if we if we bring people from left to right together, we'll agree, probably on a lot of things. Probably a majority of things. And we can argue whether it's 70%, 80% or 90%. But there's gonna be some parts that we're gonna disagree with. Wouldn't it be better to have a conversation about that, and agree to find a way through like I still think that if somehow
(30:31):
the 2 parties that end up with the super majority could find a way. That they both would agree is the right way. Forward, man, that would be great, for the country.
David Herle (30:43):
Well, except that the entire system is set up to be adversarial.
Govindh Jayaraman (30:46):
Right.
David Herle (30:47):
They're called the official opposition.
Govindh Jayaraman (30:50):
2 sword lengths apart, all that.
David Herle (30:52):
They're supposed to oppose. That is their job.
And and you know it's I mean what you really need. I mean
a voice of of conflict with the leader that is coming from a a place of well, as the Prime Minister might say, ill will. Prior ill will.
(31:13):
is
You're not going to be influenced by that Pierre Polyev saying something to Mark Carney
bad about Mark Carney. He's not going to really influence Mark Carney because he knows that he's not on his side. He's not trying to help him. He's just trying to make a point to the public.
whereas the people that are close to you. I mean the ability to speak truth to power, and some leaders are better at accepting that than others, and some staffers are better at providing that, or ministers and.
Govindh Jayaraman (31:40):
Not just me.
David Herle (31:40):
Are better at providing that than others, but that
that is really the test, because if you hear it from somebody, you know is on your side.
and, you know, wishes you well.
then it can be very influential, right? And so the the the dynamics, I mean
Paul Martin was was amazing. It's not like he didn't have ego or anything like that. But his whole.
(32:04):
I've never met somebody with more power in their life that was more open to criticism.
But from the right people.
Govindh Jayaraman (32:11):
Right. And that. And that's where I was going to go, was like, give us an example again, like, let's let's let's finish with some hope. Who's somebody who wore the badge and was open.
and I don't mean paying lip service. Tell me what you think it was wrong, and I'll promise to throw it. I'll round file it right away. I'll throw it right in the trash. No, it's like, let's talk about it. Let's talk about it from different perspectives. Let's have an active debate where that person is silent and curious. And you're saying Paul Martin was like that.
David Herle (32:44):
Walmart was very much like that, and he had
long ongoing meetings that would involve both the senior bureaucratic officials and his political staff, and the
the amazing thing about these meetings was that everybody
could disagree with each other and with him in these meetings it was all
(33:04):
open, so you know normally, the bureaucrats come in and they've got a point of view, and they present a united front on that point of view, and the political side has a point of view, and they prevent a united front. Well, Paul found that all excruciatingly boring and useless.
and so, if the Deputy Minister of Taxation policy had a different opinion than the Deputy Minister of Finance. He wanted to hear it
(33:26):
right, and if his chief of staff, Terry O'leary, disagreed with him, she was obligated to say it
in the meeting. So
you know there are people that open themselves up to that, and you know I can't use Paul as an example. He unfortunately didn't get to be Prime Minister long enough to overstay his welcome.
but but in terms of being open to criticism while being in the job I mean. He and Justin Trudeau were night and day I mean Justin Trudeau, very cloistered little environment, surrounded by only nurturing voices.
(33:59):
and
and Paul was willing to to throw himself wide open, because he thought that the best ideas would emerge from that he did not. He did not assume that he had all the good ideas, nor did he assume that
the deputy administrator all the good ideas he assumed. There were other smart people in the department. Let me hear what they have to say right.
Govindh Jayaraman (34:19):
Did he create that safety in that room? Because it's not normal? Right? So how did he create that safety? What did he do.
David Herle (34:26):
He allowed his chief of staff.
who was Terry O'leary, to disagree with him, which is unheard of.
Right.
She, like she would turn to him in a meeting and say, that's you're full of shit. That is completely wrong.
Govindh Jayaraman (34:40):
Just like that.
David Herle (34:41):
Just like that in those words. And the bureaucrats looked at that, and they said, Oh, okay.
that's the new rules.
Govindh Jayaraman (34:51):
Because people want that right? People want like when they see it, when they see the safety. So you can change culture fast. Because this is you've we've just been talking about how nobody ever does this. Here's this guy who comes into the spot once says this, and then boom.
it's like, Oh, it's okay.
David Herle (35:10):
All you know, you can create your own culture absolutely right.
but it depends on how comfortable you are with being challenged on a regular basis.
Govindh Jayaraman (35:19):
It's amazing.
David Herle (35:20):
And I, you know I would in fairness I would even say, though, about Paul, that the longer it went on.
little less welcoming of it, you know. Yeah.
And because it's so much more comforting to hear the other thing.
He's the best example I've ever known.
Govindh Jayaraman (35:41):
That's amazing, David. I know we could talk for a long time.
and and out of respect for your time. I know you've got a lot going on. You just came through a really busy cycle. So I'm really, really excited that you made time
for us now. But we've been ending every episode with a hat tip to a previous guest of paper napkin wisdom. He wrote a bestseller. His name is John Rulin. He wrote a book called giftology sort of changed corporate gift, giving by saying, instead of what's the least I could do for somebody. What's the most I could do for somebody? That's the way he lived his life, and
(36:19):
his napkin to me 11 years ago was what you appreciate appreciates. So he suddenly passed at a young age a little while ago, and to
pay forward his impact in the world. We've been asking all our guests to end with a word of gratitude to share some appreciation to something or someone that has been important to you, or that you'd just like to
(36:43):
give some appreciation to today.
Is there somebody that comes to mind.
David Herle (36:50):
Kathleen Wynn.
Kathleen Wynn was the 1st woman I had worked with in a leadership capacity.
Kathleen Wynn was one of the 1st gay people I had ever known. Well, and
(37:11):
she and I had very different views about how politics should be conducted.
But we became such close friends, and she taught me.
She has taught me continues to teach me so much about the human condition.
I would say of all the people I've worked with in politics.
She's the only one who made me a better person.
Govindh Jayaraman (37:33):
That's amazing. I was not expecting that, and thank you
for sharing that with me and David.
Thank you for joining me.
David Herle (37:41):
Nick, it was my pleasure. Thank you for having me on. What a great show.
Govindh Jayaraman (37:44):
Thank you.
David Herle (37:44):
Thanks! Take care!
David Hurley. Welcome to paper napkin wisdom. I'm really excited to be sitting across a microphone with you today.
David Herle (00:10):
Well, I'm I'm a little scared, but we'll see how it goes. Thanks for having me.
Govindh Jayaraman (00:13):
So, so I don't understand why you'd be scared. You're the one with the hockey stick in the background. I don't even have a hockey stick behind me. So like this is.
this is different, right? This.
David Herle (00:24):
I am armed.
Govindh Jayaraman (00:25):
Are armed exactly, exactly. And it's.
David Herle (00:28):
You a lovely acoustic tune on the guitar, or swat you over the head with a hockey stick.
Govindh Jayaraman (00:32):
See lover and a fighter. It's fantastic.
So you shared a great paper napkin with me and given all of the stuff that you've gotten up to in your life. I'm really interested in understanding why you shared this with me, you said.
Power is never given away. If you want it, you have to take it.
(00:53):
Why did you share that with me?
David Herle (00:56):
Well, you know, 1st of all, this is not the most important rule that an ordinary citizen needs to carry around in their head all the time. But it's a
it's. It's a little more relevant to politics, right? And
you asked me to write down something that I had learned over time that had
made a positive impact in my career.
(01:17):
and I really learned that lesson, if I can say it
from the Lord of the Rings, which I'm an enormous fan of. At 1 point I had a company called the Gandalf Group.
and so the lesson of the Lord of the Rings is that that ring of power. Whoever has it doesn't want to give it up will not give it up. It has to. They could lose it, or it could be forcibly taken from them, but they'll never give it up. And as I spent a life in politics.
(01:48):
I came to realize that that was true.
that people don't leave significant positions voluntarily.
And so it's been relevant to me in 2 very important circumstances, one of which is in the
early 2 thousands.
When it was clearly time for Paul Martin to take over from Jean Retchin as leader of the Liberal party and a lot of people.
(02:14):
A lot of people told me at that time you do not have to push him.
He'll leave on his own. He's been there long enough.
He wants to spend time at the cottage with his wife. He wants to spend time with his grandchildren, and I'm like, no.
he wants to be the Prime Minister of Canada. Nobody has ever voluntarily resigned this position.
and he won't be the first.st
(02:35):
And that proved to be correct.
He had to be forced out.
and similarly going back to the last year or so with Justin Trudeau.
You know there were so many people in the Liberal party sitting back and saying.
Surely he'll know it's time to go. He's smart enough to read the polls. His marriage is broken up. All these things he'll he'll leave on his own. He won't do this, and I'm like, no, if something doesn't happen, he's going to lead the party into the next election
(03:03):
because he still thinks he's got a chance.
and to hang on to this job.
And so it took.
I mean, I was. I was voicing this for a long, long time on my podcasts and privately.
but ultimately, if it wasn't for Chrystia Freeland standing up and doing what she did, he would have been the candidate in this election, and the Liberal party would have gotten smoked.
(03:26):
So
my lesson from life is when people have real power, they don't give it up. And if you don't want them to have it anymore, you have to take it from them.
Govindh Jayaraman (03:36):
That's amazing. And I love the reference back to the one ring right? Because it corrupts like good people.
It it, you know. Bilbo was corrupted by the ring.
David Herle (03:49):
Right.
Govindh Jayaraman (03:50):
And.
David Herle (03:50):
And ultimately even Frodo, whom Gandalf chose of all the people on earth
to do this job. Even at the end Frodo wouldn't give it up.
Govindh Jayaraman (03:58):
Yeah, that's right. So there's a powerful lesson in that. And and so look for people listening.
A Liberal party is a party in Canada. But you're not talking about this just being a Liberal party of Canada thing. This same thing plays out.
David Herle (04:14):
Biden.
Govindh Jayaraman (04:15):
Right.
David Herle (04:16):
Go by.
Govindh Jayaraman (04:18):
Right, because he said he was going to do it for one term.
But then.
David Herle (04:22):
Transitional President. Yep.
Govindh Jayaraman (04:24):
Put the ring on, and didn't want to give it up.
David Herle (04:26):
That is correct.
Govindh Jayaraman (04:27):
Everybody does this, and it's not just Liberals. It's Conservatives. Do this, too. Right?
David Herle (04:32):
It's not partisan. It's human.
Govindh Jayaraman (04:34):
It's human. Why is it like that? What is it about power that helps us lose our way.
or or makes us lose our way or that we lose our way so easily in the face of.
David Herle (04:51):
You know. Maybe it's the element of control over things. I mean, you know, we all like to have control in our own lives. We all like to feel like we're in charge, and that's on a small scale. And when people don't feel that they feel disoriented and alienated.
maybe it's just an extreme version of that that it's just, you know, Henry Kissinger once said when he was engaged to a
(05:14):
a reasonably normal looking woman. He was an unattractive man.
he said. Power is the ultimate aphrodisiac.
And
So there's when you have it. It's obviously intoxicating, and you feel very, very good about yourself and so
(05:35):
I don't know. I've never had it. I've helped people get it, and I've helped remove it from other people, but I've never I've never had it so. I don't know what the feeling is, but I know that.
Govindh Jayaraman (05:46):
But you've been beside them. You've been beside them right? You've been beside them when they're getting, when you know when they're slipping the ring on?
Is it something that you can see happen? Can you see it? Is it obvious.
when people get that power, that something changes about their relationship with it?
David Herle (06:08):
Yeah, I think there is something immediate, but it's also builds over time right? And and you become.
I don't know what was going through Bilbo's or Frodo's mind. But certainly what happens in politicians minds is that they really do come to believe nobody else could do this job
(06:28):
right.
Govindh Jayaraman (06:29):
Yeah.
David Herle (06:29):
And that they're dealing with such weighty issues. And they're dealing with such difficult questions, and they're dealing with them so well in their own mind
that it's impossible for them to imagine that somebody else could come along and do a better job. And, in fact, I believe that sitting on his couch wherever he is right now Justin Trudeau believes he could have won the election probably bigger than Mark Carney did. That's just the nature.
Govindh Jayaraman (06:55):
And is it part of
part of the resilience that people have to face like part of the ordeal of getting the job? In the 1st place is that you have to prove everybody wrong. You have, like no one person
per cycle makes it through the maze to get to that place. So there has to be this like deep seated amount of
(07:16):
resilience in the face of you can't do it. You can't do it. You can't do it. So they're used to shoving that aside right right.
David Herle (07:24):
Very much, very much so, you know Trudeau is a very good example, he would say to you anybody that came up and told him. You can't win this upcoming election. You need to step down.
he would say.
Well, people told me I couldn't do any number of things that I could never be elected, in the 1st place, that I could never be reelected, that, you know, and I've proven people wrong every time I won that boxing match. I am at my best when I'm up against adversity. Any number of rationalizations that belie all of the external realities.
Govindh Jayaraman (07:55):
Right? Right? So so you you sort of come by it honestly, you come by that sort of that ability to to shut down the critics, but when you do that to
completely, you lose the ability to harvest useful information from them. Right?
There's there's useful information in contrarian opinion. There's useful information in people criticizing you, even saying you can't do something.
David Herle (08:20):
Well, this is also one of the things that happens to politicians and leaders in positions is that they are cocooned.
Govindh Jayaraman (08:27):
Yeah.
David Herle (08:27):
And so it is easy for them to not believe that that exists out there.
And you know they can read polling data, but all they are surrounded by are people that are nice to them, who support them
say nice things to them, whether that's in their office or in their caucus, or when they're out meeting Liberals at events, everywhere. They're not confronted with that right. What they're confronted with is support and nurturing, and so
(08:59):
they can.
They can ignore all of that, and they have power. They are regardless of what anybody says about them. They're making decisions that day that will make a difference and make an impact.
And so it's, it's it's all.
It all comes together
in a reality that I you know, I mean, I think it's a pretty amazing stat that nobody
(09:21):
in the history of Canada has woken up on a Tuesday morning and said, I don't want to be the Prime Minister anymore, and I'm going to resign.
Govindh Jayaraman (09:28):
What about the walk in the snow? Right? What about.
David Herle (09:31):
The walk in the snow. Pierre Trudeau.
Govindh Jayaraman (09:33):
Yeah. Pierre Trudeau is walking the street.
David Herle (09:34):
Trudeau had run in the 1980 election.
after having stepped down after losing the 1979 election was recruited by the Liberals to come back and run in 1980,
and promised to resign if elected.
promised to resign before the next election if elected.
(09:56):
He went into the 5th year of his mandate tried everything
to try to get reelected, including a bogus peace mission around the world, where he was shuttling himself from capital to capital, pretending that he was going to be the person that ended the nuclear threat in the world.
(10:18):
and these were all ploys to try to get reelected, and at the end of it. He was, you know, 20 points down to Mulroney and going to get smoked when he quit, and he'd run out of. He'd run out the clock.
There was no time left. He left under extreme duress. There was no walk in the snow, and there's no doubt in my mind from the people I've talked to that knew Pierre Trudeau that if he thought he could have won the 1984 election, he'd have run, despite promising to quit in the previous campaign.
Govindh Jayaraman (10:47):
Right so. And and I only bring that up because that's the only thing that I can think of in lore. Now
contrast that to the American system right in the American system. There's supposed to be a 2 term limit. We'll see whether or not.
David Herle (11:03):
See if it holds. Yeah.
Govindh Jayaraman (11:04):
We'll see if it holds, because I think
the one ring is on someone's finger. He doesn't want to give it up. And and this two-term
structure was put in place
to promote the idea that not only would it be automatic constitutionally taken away from you.
(11:24):
but you would have to give it up. You knew you had to give it up.
Is that is that a positive way of considering
how to transition away from power and make sure that it's not consolidated in one place for too long.
David Herle (11:37):
Now your American examples made me think of an anecdote. You know there are a lot of people
who make the argument that George Washington
is the most important person in the history of American democracy. For this reason he left.
Govindh Jayaraman (11:52):
Right.
David Herle (11:53):
He was the 1st President. He was the general of the army.
Quite likely he could have stayed on had he wanted to right
and he left, and he set the precedent for the country. That that's how it worked.
And
so yeah, I mean, I think there is merit to term limits. To be honest, I heard somebody say it might have been Richard Nixon whom I probably shouldn't quote.
(12:19):
I heard somebody say once something made a lot of sense, it said. You know
you go into office with a set of ideas that you've accumulated over the course of your life.
and you use them up.
and you are. It's impossible for you to regenerate yourself in office. You're too busy doing it. You're no longer doing the reading, the learning, the interaction with other people, the life experiences that brought you to the initial point.
(12:44):
So you know, that's why that's why, eventually, if people stay too long, they start to get run around by the bureaucrats because they're out of ideas, and they're just there now.
Govindh Jayaraman (12:54):
That's amazing. I love that idea, and it's almost like, you know, the guitar is behind you, and and you know there's a
similar.
David Herle (13:04):
Bernie Toppin's guitar.
Govindh Jayaraman (13:05):
Oh, that's pretty cool for everybody listening. Who's Birdie talkings.
David Herle (13:09):
Bernie Toppin is Elton, John's lyricist.
and all of the great songs that you know from Elton, John from the seventies and eighties, and etc. Written on that lyrics were composed on that guitar.
Govindh Jayaraman (13:22):
That is cool.
I'm gonna get distracted for a second. But let's go. Maybe let's play with that for a second, because songwriters are sometimes criticized for losing their perspective on where they were and not being able to write about their new experiences anymore from a different lens. It's almost the same thing, right.
David Herle (13:44):
Totally. It's like, you know, a band is done when their songs are about the rigors of life on the road and the travails of a rock star as opposed to wanting to get laid, and wanting a fast car.
Govindh Jayaraman (13:55):
Right. 6 cars in the 3rd World War. Right? They're only only
3 things worth fighting for. So so in that thinking about that.
that that's sort of the same thing you're saying here when it talks to politicians. Why is it so hard for people in power to have uncomfortable conversations where they actually disagree with somebody where they can actually have.
(14:18):
you know, a
respectful discourse with somebody, and disagree with them, and learn from that. Why is that so hard.
David Herle (14:29):
They just don't put themselves in that position.
I mean I you know. And and
when Kathleen Wynne was the Premier of Ontario.
and people were turning on the on the Liberal Government, and popularity was plummeting.
She went on a listening tour of the province where she had
(14:50):
open town halls all across the province
and advertised them. They weren't partisan things. Come one come. All. People said terrible things to her and asked her terrible questions. She's a remarkably strong person.
and she was able to take that.
But you know I don't know if you've noticed, but the more
authority people have, generally, the less they like to be questioned.
Govindh Jayaraman (15:15):
Right.
And it
I just I just wonder why we fall into this trap because we can intellectually sit there. I mean, we're sitting. We know this to be true, right? You have
surely in your various roles, you you have helped to get
people elected. You've brought people into the Prime minister's office in this in this country more than once.
(15:42):
So with that experience, surely you've
maybe tap them aside on the shoulder and said, Hey.
at some point. And you're going to have to step down at some point.
You're going to run out of ideas at some point. You're gonna have to listen to somebody right.
David Herle (15:57):
You know.
Govindh Jayaraman (15:57):
And yet nobody does so intellectually. People know this to be true, and yet we all fall for the trap, and I think Ceos fall for this trap, too. Right? Like, when you're building a company, you could be at the top of the company, and you're not listening anymore.
There's a way you do things.
David Herle (16:12):
But companies are dealing with that because basically, Ceos don't last much longer than 4 or 5 years anymore, most of them and the board moves them out and brings somebody else back in and bring somebody else in new ideas. New approach.
Govindh Jayaraman (16:25):
Right. And there's an accountability around dollars and cents that doesn't always exist in politics.
David Herle (16:30):
And so the boards of directors do that at about 5 years, and in politics the electorate does that after about 10 years.
Govindh Jayaraman (16:38):
Right right. And so, because very difficult to get reelected after.
David Herle (16:42):
2 terms, or anywhere between 8 and 10 years in office. Very few people get reelected after that.
Govindh Jayaraman (16:48):
Yeah. And and your point, though, is that they're not
giving it away. They're not retiring.
They're having it taken away from them. And sometimes.
David Herle (16:57):
They're like.
Govindh Jayaraman (16:58):
But as well.
David Herle (16:58):
They're like boxers.
right? They fight one election too many, and they get kicked around. And so people only leave these jobs in one of 2 circumstances. Either they are facing imminent and unavoidable electoral defeat.
or they are defeated.
Sometimes they don't run, but they wait till the very end, as I said, with Trudeau or Mulroney, is another classic example of people that went into the 5th year. Is there a way? Is there a chance? Can something happen, and when the clock runs out they say, All right, I'm out of here, and some dope can come in here and carry this steaming hulk for the campaign, but
(17:39):
they don't leave when they think they, when they don't leave until they have to.
Govindh Jayaraman (17:42):
It's almost like that, Jim Carrey. Character in dumb and dumber is like you're saying, I have a chance.
Exactly.
You have one chance in a million that you're going to get elected. Oh, so you're saying I have a chance.
David Herle (17:53):
That's true.
Govindh Jayaraman (17:54):
So you know the the question
like this idea about so let's go back to the Lord of Rings metaphor, because I think it's really great right? I mean, I love that you took it from there, and you're bringing it here. When people put on the one ring, the eye of Sauron would see them right, and that would scare them. It would scare Frodo in the movies. Have you seen him? If you read the book, it scares him into taking the ring off because he's afraid of being seen for wearing the power. Is there a check and balance like that in the real world? Or is it?
(18:27):
Does that just not exist anymore.
David Herle (18:29):
No, that doesn't exist anymore. There's no sauron over top of the one ring. There's just you are the top of the heap.
And
what you say goes. And a bunch of other really important, impressive people are running around listening to what you say and then executing on what you do. I mean, I actually don't have much trouble understanding how much fun that could be.
Govindh Jayaraman (18:50):
Oh, no, I mean, I mean the way when you, when you talk about it that way. It sounds
pretty fun, pretty great, right?
And why would you want to give it up
right? Why would? Why would you want to give it up? So so when you, when you, when you
I just think it's it's interesting.
(19:11):
How do you facilitate? So you do this really? Well, in curse of politics, you, you bring people with different minds, different positions different perspectives. Now none of them are wearing the one ring right.
David Herle (19:23):
Right.
Govindh Jayaraman (19:23):
But they're influential people, very influential people, and you're in your.
David Herle (19:26):
There's an enormous difference between influence and power. I've had a lot of influence. I've never had power. I've never made a decision.
I have advised people who were making decisions.
Govindh Jayaraman (19:37):
And.
David Herle (19:37):
They make the call. I've never made the call right.
Govindh Jayaraman (19:40):
Right.
And and why?
so you're drawing this distinction, and I think it's an important one. But why are you making it so clear that there's a difference between influencing and making the call.
because there's there's a there's a subtle, there's a big well, there's a subtle but big chasm there right.
David Herle (20:02):
Well, if you're an advisor, your advice may be taken. Maybe not, maybe not taken, no matter how close you are to the person, they'll have a different point of view, and it is sometimes, and it is their point of view
that will prevail. So you know, if if you think I'm influential. It's because maybe I can get an idea in front of the person, but I can't make them do it.
(20:22):
And I've you know whether it was Paul Martin or Kathleen Wynn, or any of the other people I've worked with
quite often disagreed with me, and you know occasionally you think, Fuck, I wish I could have made that decision, but I didn't run.
Govindh Jayaraman (20:36):
And I didn't take the power from anybody. I didn't put myself forward and say I'm the person.
Was that a decision like? Did you choose to be a person of influence versus a person of power.
David Herle (20:47):
Just sort of evolved, you know. I think when I 1st got involved in politics back in Saskatchewan at home.
I always assumed I would run. I thought that was the purpose of getting involved in politics, and I didn't really think that people like me. I didn't know, really, that people like me existed.
and I've had a pretty good run in politics. I've had, as you say, lots of influence and lots of opportunity to affect events in a way that's very rewarding.
(21:10):
but I think I always thought I would run, and then it just kind of got away from me. 1st of all, I started moving around. I came to. I went to Montreal to work for a while, and then I moved to Ottawa to work in politics for almost 20 years, and now I'm in Toronto. I don't belong anywhere like where would I run? I'm not a citizen of anywhere. I can't go back to Regina and pretend to be from there.
(21:30):
and
you know everybody in Ottawa that's like me is just a tourist in that town for doing a tour of duty and politics like you're in a general. You're a genuine Ottawa resident. I lived in Ottawa for 20 years. I couldn't find Bells Corners for my life, depended on it.
Govindh Jayaraman (21:47):
Most people can't.
David Herle (21:48):
I heard about the traffic there every day, but I don't know where the fuck that is, and so
I don't. I don't really have a place to run
and you know also, to be honest, life got comfortable.
Govindh Jayaraman (22:04):
Right.
David Herle (22:05):
Life got covered because the job of an member of Parliament is a brutal job.
So I mean, it's just a brutal job like you are in Ottawa for 5 days
working day and night, and then you get on a plane and you fly back to your riding.
and instead of getting a break or catching up with your wife and kids.
(22:29):
You are going steady for those 2 days, from one event to another event to meetings in your riding, to meeting with people who have issues that you need to solve, and going to the Gedwara for this and going to the old folks home for that.
And and and it's just a 7 day, a week, 24 HA day job.
(22:52):
And frankly, many of those people, none of those people have power, and very few of them have influence.
So it is.
it, you know. It's a it's tough to talk yourself into doing that at a certain point in life.
Govindh Jayaraman (23:06):
Yeah. And and I guess that was one of the questions that I was going to get to is, is there a difference between the power of being.
you know, a representative like a member of the House of Representatives, a member of the Senate, a member of the House of Commons here versus being in Cabinet, and, more importantly, the leader of a party right like, I'm thinking about the recent election that we just had. And and
(23:35):
you know Pierre Polyev, leader of the party. No longer has. He's not a member of Parliament
for the 1st time in his adult life. Really, I mean, he's been a Member of Parliament that entire time, and a relatively influential one all that time.
David Herle (23:51):
Defeated a sitting Cabinet Minister in an election I was in charge of, so I'm in a way responsible for him.
Govindh Jayaraman (23:57):
So that's funny. I didn't know that. So so when you think about that, right.
how does Power look for just an Mp. Is it different than is that the same as this power that's never given away?
Do they always want to hold on to it forever?
David Herle (24:16):
No, no, it's not. And people frequently decide they've had enough of being an Mp. It's not like they're devoid of power.
I mean, in their ridings, you know. I mean, people come to them, and they say I'm having trouble getting some immigration papers completed, or I'm having trouble getting this out of the government, or I'm having trouble getting that benefit out of the government, and the Mp. Can go and fix that for them.
(24:40):
That's power.
Govindh Jayaraman (24:41):
But it is power.
David Herle (24:42):
Right. They have access to the system, and they can go in, and they can change a person's life for the better by fixing a problem that they have. That's power. They have less power when they get close to Ottawa.
And you know, a lot of people argue caucuses should have more power than they do. But
frankly, we've gotten to a point where the leader is so central to the electoral choice
(25:07):
like this election was about Kearney versus Paulie. It wasn't even really about Liberal versus Conservative, much less one candidate versus another candidate. Everybody had in their minds the 2 leaders, and so
everybody who's in those 2 caucuses knows that they are there because people voted for their leader, not for them.
Right? And so that's where the power goes and
(25:30):
And so
yeah, it's they're influential. They have. I don't. I don't mean to diminish it too much, you know. Caucus meetings are, and especially if if Kearney goes back to traditional caucus meetings, Trudeau did something really terrible.
Trudeau invited his senior staff
to join caucus meetings, and I should give you a little bit of history caucus is when all the elected members of a party get together, and they do it once a week, and they all meet, and up until Justin Trudeau was the Prime Minister. There was nobody in that room but an elected caucus member, not one person, not a staffer, not anything.
(26:07):
and it was just their time.
Govindh Jayaraman (26:10):
Confidential right? It's like the term is like.
David Herle (26:12):
You can cancel.
Govindh Jayaraman (26:13):
It's in camera, which means that it's behind closed doors. What's said in the room stays in the room. It's actually this really big veil of secrecy around. Really, even what could be on the agenda? Nobody, even.
David Herle (26:25):
No, nobody ever knows no. And if somebody stands up in there and says, Prime Minister, the Minister of Immigration is really messing this up, and we're going to pay a terrible price for this, and you've got to do something about the Minister of Immigration
right?
Well that you can say that in front of your caucus colleagues to the Prime Minister. That's that's that's influence in a big way, right? And
(26:50):
so those caucus meetings. But they change when the staff is there?
Right?
Because, frankly, a lot of times you're going to want to talk about the staff
you're going to want to say to the Prime Minister. I can't get through to you anymore. I've got some shit. I want you to know
right some uncomfortable things about what people are saying to me in my riding about our government.
(27:13):
and I've asked for a meeting for 6 months, and I can't get through right.
And so I hope that Kearney goes back to just making those true caucus meetings, because I think that is one of the few times
when a Prime Minister does encounter the truth.
Govindh Jayaraman (27:31):
Right.
David Herle (27:32):
Okay.
Govindh Jayaraman (27:32):
And that's a powerful thing. The the other thing that I think that's really interesting about
this idea, that power is never given away. And if you want it, you have to take. It
is is that even amongst influencers, right? Because influencers are only influential if they're able to get close to that person.
David Herle (27:52):
Right.
Govindh Jayaraman (27:52):
So I think it's it's it's hard for people to be critical
or indifferent about the things that the person they're supposed to be able to influence
are doing. Isn't it like, if you're you know you're a Liberal strategist for many years, if you're openly critical about them in a conversation, or if there's a debate that otherwise is out of camera, meaning that it's public and out there for everybody to see. And somehow somebody who's Consolidated Power doesn't like what they're saying. You've lost influence over that person because they'll shut you out, won't they?
David Herle (28:31):
Absolutely, absolutely. And you know, to some extent that happened to me in Ottawa over the last couple of years.
because I was so vocal
about the need for Trudeau to go. I was told I was a traitor. I was told I was destroying the morale of the Government. I was told I was hurting the Government's chances for reelection, and I was not part of the inside anymore. I was an outsider. I was a great.
(28:56):
but
you know I had made a decision that I just had to. I mean, the nature of our show is the truth nature of our podcast it only works when the people on it are telling the truth and telling what they think.
And it was clearer as day to me
a while ago that a Trudeau had run out of gas in the tank to be the Prime Minister, but second of all, that Canadians were not going to reelect him, and, in fact, were going to defeat him in a way that rendered the Liberal Party existentially challenged. It wasn't going to be a normal defeat. It was going to be a beating.
Govindh Jayaraman (29:28):
Yeah, it was going to be a pummeling. And you were. You were very vocal about that for many years, I mean, I remember
it had to be at least a couple years ago that you started talking about that. And and that's what I mean. You fall out of favor when you have uncomfortable conversations about what is really happening. And isn't that.
David Herle (29:46):
Well, they say Paul.
Govindh Jayaraman (29:47):
What a shame!
David Herle (29:48):
Team sport, you know, and that means everybody.
Govindh Jayaraman (29:51):
Yeah, but think about that. Like.
we are incapable of having uncomfortable conversations in this current dynamic.
in this consolidation of power, in the place where people are never going to give away the power, and people are not going to listen to the criticism.
What do we need to do to fix that because I think, I think.
(30:11):
look, if we if we bring people from left to right together, we'll agree, probably on a lot of things. Probably a majority of things. And we can argue whether it's 70%, 80% or 90%. But there's gonna be some parts that we're gonna disagree with. Wouldn't it be better to have a conversation about that, and agree to find a way through like I still think that if somehow
(30:31):
the 2 parties that end up with the super majority could find a way. That they both would agree is the right way. Forward, man, that would be great, for the country.
David Herle (30:43):
Well, except that the entire system is set up to be adversarial.
Govindh Jayaraman (30:46):
Right.
David Herle (30:47):
They're called the official opposition.
Govindh Jayaraman (30:50):
2 sword lengths apart, all that.
David Herle (30:52):
They're supposed to oppose. That is their job.
And and you know it's I mean what you really need. I mean
a voice of of conflict with the leader that is coming from a a place of well, as the Prime Minister might say, ill will. Prior ill will.
(31:13):
is
You're not going to be influenced by that Pierre Polyev saying something to Mark Carney
bad about Mark Carney. He's not going to really influence Mark Carney because he knows that he's not on his side. He's not trying to help him. He's just trying to make a point to the public.
whereas the people that are close to you. I mean the ability to speak truth to power, and some leaders are better at accepting that than others, and some staffers are better at providing that, or ministers and.
Govindh Jayaraman (31:40):
Not just me.
David Herle (31:40):
Are better at providing that than others, but that
that is really the test, because if you hear it from somebody, you know is on your side.
and, you know, wishes you well.
then it can be very influential, right? And so the the the dynamics, I mean
Paul Martin was was amazing. It's not like he didn't have ego or anything like that. But his whole.
(32:04):
I've never met somebody with more power in their life that was more open to criticism.
But from the right people.
Govindh Jayaraman (32:11):
Right. And that. And that's where I was going to go, was like, give us an example again, like, let's let's let's finish with some hope. Who's somebody who wore the badge and was open.
and I don't mean paying lip service. Tell me what you think it was wrong, and I'll promise to throw it. I'll round file it right away. I'll throw it right in the trash. No, it's like, let's talk about it. Let's talk about it from different perspectives. Let's have an active debate where that person is silent and curious. And you're saying Paul Martin was like that.
David Herle (32:44):
Walmart was very much like that, and he had
long ongoing meetings that would involve both the senior bureaucratic officials and his political staff, and the
the amazing thing about these meetings was that everybody
could disagree with each other and with him in these meetings it was all
(33:04):
open, so you know normally, the bureaucrats come in and they've got a point of view, and they present a united front on that point of view, and the political side has a point of view, and they prevent a united front. Well, Paul found that all excruciatingly boring and useless.
and so, if the Deputy Minister of Taxation policy had a different opinion than the Deputy Minister of Finance. He wanted to hear it
(33:26):
right, and if his chief of staff, Terry O'leary, disagreed with him, she was obligated to say it
in the meeting. So
you know there are people that open themselves up to that, and you know I can't use Paul as an example. He unfortunately didn't get to be Prime Minister long enough to overstay his welcome.
but but in terms of being open to criticism while being in the job I mean. He and Justin Trudeau were night and day I mean Justin Trudeau, very cloistered little environment, surrounded by only nurturing voices.
(33:59):
and
and Paul was willing to to throw himself wide open, because he thought that the best ideas would emerge from that he did not. He did not assume that he had all the good ideas, nor did he assume that
the deputy administrator all the good ideas he assumed. There were other smart people in the department. Let me hear what they have to say right.
Govindh Jayaraman (34:19):
Did he create that safety in that room? Because it's not normal? Right? So how did he create that safety? What did he do.
David Herle (34:26):
He allowed his chief of staff.
who was Terry O'leary, to disagree with him, which is unheard of.
Right.
She, like she would turn to him in a meeting and say, that's you're full of shit. That is completely wrong.
Govindh Jayaraman (34:40):
Just like that.
David Herle (34:41):
Just like that in those words. And the bureaucrats looked at that, and they said, Oh, okay.
that's the new rules.
Govindh Jayaraman (34:51):
Because people want that right? People want like when they see it, when they see the safety. So you can change culture fast. Because this is you've we've just been talking about how nobody ever does this. Here's this guy who comes into the spot once says this, and then boom.
it's like, Oh, it's okay.
David Herle (35:10):
All you know, you can create your own culture absolutely right.
but it depends on how comfortable you are with being challenged on a regular basis.
Govindh Jayaraman (35:19):
It's amazing.
David Herle (35:20):
And I, you know I would in fairness I would even say, though, about Paul, that the longer it went on.
little less welcoming of it, you know. Yeah.
And because it's so much more comforting to hear the other thing.
He's the best example I've ever known.
Govindh Jayaraman (35:41):
That's amazing, David. I know we could talk for a long time.
and and out of respect for your time. I know you've got a lot going on. You just came through a really busy cycle. So I'm really, really excited that you made time
for us now. But we've been ending every episode with a hat tip to a previous guest of paper napkin wisdom. He wrote a bestseller. His name is John Rulin. He wrote a book called giftology sort of changed corporate gift, giving by saying, instead of what's the least I could do for somebody. What's the most I could do for somebody? That's the way he lived his life, and
(36:19):
his napkin to me 11 years ago was what you appreciate appreciates. So he suddenly passed at a young age a little while ago, and to
pay forward his impact in the world. We've been asking all our guests to end with a word of gratitude to share some appreciation to something or someone that has been important to you, or that you'd just like to
(36:43):
give some appreciation to today.
Is there somebody that comes to mind.
David Herle (36:50):
Kathleen Wynn.
Kathleen Wynn was the 1st woman I had worked with in a leadership capacity.
Kathleen Wynn was one of the 1st gay people I had ever known. Well, and
(37:11):
she and I had very different views about how politics should be conducted.
But we became such close friends, and she taught me.
She has taught me continues to teach me so much about the human condition.
I would say of all the people I've worked with in politics.
She's the only one who made me a better person.
Govindh Jayaraman (37:33):
That's amazing. I was not expecting that, and thank you
for sharing that with me and David.
Thank you for joining me.
David Herle (37:41):
Nick, it was my pleasure. Thank you for having me on. What a great show.
Govindh Jayaraman (37:44):
Thank you.
David Herle (37:44):
Thanks! Take care!
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