July 3, 2025 • 50 mins
In his return to Paper Napkin Wisdom, Todd Palmer—renowned executive coach, keynote speaker, and founder of Extraordinary Advisors—brings with him a powerful reframe that resonates deeply with anyone navigating tough leadership terrain: "Everything happens 4 me, NOT 2 me."
Todd isn’t new to turning adversity into opportunity. As a CEO who once faced near-bankruptcy before rebuilding a multi-million-dollar business, he understands what it means to transform challenges into lessons. Now, as a coach to executives across North America, he teaches others to lead with intention, presence, and a bold sense of ownership.
In this episode, Todd shares how this subtle but significant shift in language—"for me" vs. "to me"—completely reframes how we experience setbacks, overwhelm, and uncertainty. “Today was gonna be a good day,” he says, recalling a long 14-hour stretch he’d scheduled. “I had started my day wearing black, which isn’t exactly a positive color. So I thought, why not wear something that feels like Spring?”
That small action, wearing bright colors, symbolized a larger internal decision to live in alignment with possibility instead of victimhood.
Radical Responsibility in Action
The napkin Todd shared this time wasn’t just inspirational—it was transformational. It spoke to a kind of radical responsibility that leaders must embody if they want to thrive in complexity. “When we choose to believe that life is happening for us, we move from reactive to proactive, from defensive to creative,” Todd explained.
In leadership, this mindset shift isn’t fluffy—it’s functional. It leads to better decision-making, stronger culture, and more consistent results. “The difference between leading from pain and leading from growth is how we interpret our story,” Todd reminds us. “The moment you rewrite that story with intention, everything changes.”
Emotional Agility and Self-Coaching
Todd also discussed how leaders often get stuck when they operate from a reactive mindset. “You’re not your thoughts,” he said. “You’re the thinker of your thoughts.” It’s a powerful distinction—one that supports emotional agility, self-awareness, and the ability to pivot when things don’t go according to plan.
He offered listeners a challenge: When something frustrating happens, ask, “What’s the gift here?” or “What’s this teaching me?”
By turning every circumstance into a classroom, we empower ourselves to keep moving forward, even when the path is unclear.
5 Key Takeaways from Todd Palmer’s Episode:
1. Shift from Victim to Creator
“Everything happens for me, not to me.” 🧭 Take Action: Each time you feel stuck, reframe the situation using this mantra. Write down one thing that’s happening for you—even if it’s uncomfortable.
2. The Power of Micro-Decisions
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Govindh Jayaraman (00:02):
Todd Palmer. Welcome back to paper! Napkin wisdom! I'm thrilled to have you back again.
Todd Palmer (00:08):
I'm more thrilled to be here. Thanks for having me back.
Govindh Jayaraman (00:10):
So this is, this is fun. We were. We were making a joke about Jon Hamm getting his golden jacket on Saturday live, and you were asking about yours, but you know you don't need one, because you're channeling Spring right now. Look at you.
Todd Palmer (00:23):
There you go!
Govindh Jayaraman (00:24):
You're like a ray of sunshine.
Todd Palmer (00:25):
Well, I'm blessed. I got to spend some time recently in Mexico and in Texas, where the sun shines as compared to Detroit, which sun doesn't always shine here. So I got that. And then, you know, I decided today that today part of our theme is today was, gonna Be a good day. Everything was going to happen for me, not to me, and I had a 14 h day booked out, and I started my day wearing black, which is not a really a good positive color. So I thought, You know what? I'm going to change it up a little bit. I'm going to be the energy in the sun that I'd like to cascade into your audience.
Govindh Jayaraman (00:54):
That's fantastic. I love it. I love it so. If people are just listening and not watching, Todd looks, you know, uncharacteristically, for a Northerner, tanned and sun kissed, and is wearing a nice salmon.
Todd Palmer (01:08):
Yes, sir.
Govindh Jayaraman (01:09):
So bringing sunshine into the show, so wanted to make sure that everybody listening can hear that as well. All right, you shared a really interesting napkin for me, and you sort of teased it in your little intro there. But your napkin says everything in life happens for me and not to me.
(01:30):
why did you share that with me?
Todd Palmer (01:32):
Oh.
I think especially now we're recording this, you know, in mid year 2025, there are so many people I work with as their coach, where they're acting as if life and government changes and tariffs, and life is happening to them.
and they show up in a very sad state of being either the victim or the martyr, and I can relate to that. I used to show up that way, too. So when I was working with Dr. Friedland, my coach, Dr. Danny Friedland. He gave me a phrase that truly changed my life, and the phrase is this, everything in life happens for you not to you.
(02:08):
So, as I was looking at where we are in the landscape of today for entrepreneurs, business leaders and just human beings on the planet Earth, especially here in the United States and up where you are up in Canada, there's so much that people feel like is happening to them. I wanted to give a tool to your audience, so they can reappraise that reframe that, and get out of that victim or martyr mindset, should they be having one.
Govindh Jayaraman (02:29):
Yeah, so well, 1st of all, I
people like you and I get called on to speak a lot and talk a lot with clients and other people at this time in these kinds of places, because chaos creates a lot of confusion
in my mind. Chaos creates a lot of opportunity, and I think this is what you're really talking about here. This is the heart of some of what you're sharing. But why did Dr. Danny Friedland share this message with you, and why did it resonate with you so much when he did.
Todd Palmer (03:02):
Great question.
I was at a place in my life where I was. My business had turned around. The relationship with my son was
tenuous. It was proving but tenuous, and I just would say to him.
You know, I just don't understand why I'm not happier. I want to be happy. I'm checking a lot of boxes. You know the the laundry list I had of what was going to make me happy from an external position.
(03:31):
and he he called it out, he said, well, 1st of all, if all you're doing is pursuing and chasing happiness you're never going to, you're never going to get there, because happiness is nothing more than a spike of dopamine.
Instead, change the word in your thought process to satisfaction. Satisfaction is part of the hero's journey. Whether it's you know, someone from Shakespeare's days, or to someone from the Star Wars universe, or the Lord of the Rings Universe, whether it's Luke Skywalker, Frodo, or someone from Shakespeare's time who goes on this hero's journey on that journey. There's highs and lows. It's not all just a trajectory from from 0 to 100 straight up the mountain.
(04:09):
And I said, Well, how do I do that? He goes. You need to tell yourself that every single thing that happens to you in life happens for you, not to you. And he gave me an example of a car accident. He gave me other examples of things like you're in a car accident. You have the right of way a car hits you.
You don't control that. The car hits you. What you do is you control how you react to it.
(04:30):
and you can get out. You can go after, you know. Say, it's a senior citizen, you say. Well, weren't you paying attention. What were you doing? Or you say, Oh, my gosh! Are you okay?
What were you thinking? Check with them? You can go from an aggressive position to a compassionate position and several other categories in between. But what that does is it puts you back in the position of feeling powerful. It puts you back into the position of not being a victim or a martyr to the circumstances. And then for me, what that does is, anything that happens, whether it's a i had this happen a couple weeks ago. My flight was delayed not one time, but 5 times. As I'm leaving for my honeymoon.
(05:05):
my wife and I sat in the Delta Club and decided to start our honeymoon there versus when we arrived in Mexico, and we had some of the most powerful conversations in the 8 years we've been together, because we decided that this delay
through for weather reasons, was happening for us, not to us. So we decided to practice that anywhere we go because it makes our lives more enriched versus sitting and complaining and whining about things we don't have any control over like a delayed flight.
Govindh Jayaraman (05:33):
I love that I love. I love how it reframes really, quickly.
What's happening
and what's happening is only my perspective or your perspective, or our perspective on what's happening, even right? Because we could say, tariffs are happening. No, there's a change happening which is really the core of it. And what do we do about it? What do we do next? And it gives us the ability to consider our actions, our perspective, doesn't it.
Todd Palmer (06:02):
Right absolutely, and the amygdala part of our brain moves 5 times faster than our neocortex. So if we do pattern interruption, and we tell our brain, hey? This is happening for us, not to us. It removes what's called the amygdala hijack. The amygdala wants to keep us safe, whether, again, whether it's around
car accidents, whether it's around business, whether it's around flight delays. Your brain wants to keep you safe. That's what it's there for, and so it fires you to the amygdala. But you say, well, wait a minute. This this flight delay could be happening for me, not to me. That allows me to re-engage my prefrontal cortex in a way
(06:40):
that removes and minimizes that amygdala hijack and allows me to move into executive function. Well, like you said, is this really a danger to me? No, it's an inconvenience. My flight is well. Is it really an inconvenience? And just stay there. Then I can approach the situation, just like in the car accident, example. With empathy and compassion versus aggression. I can move into strategic thinking versus reactive thinking. And then I can go into make a meaning of what is happening and create a longer term vision around again. Going back to my story about being stuck at the airport.
(07:09):
we decided. This is going to happen for us, not to us. We're going to make meaning in the moment. Now we were there for 4 and a half hours on a delayed flight. But we're going to make the best of this situation. And again Dr. Friedland was masterful at modeling that for me and teaching that to me, even in his final days, before he passed away.
Govindh Jayaraman (07:27):
How did he do that.
Todd Palmer (07:30):
So Danny found out, 11 months before he passed away, that he had stage 4 brain cancer. This is all public knowledge. He and I did a final interview that's out on Youtube about this. Danny was a big speaker in communities like Ypo conscious capitalism Eo, and he talked openly about this. So I'm not telling anything out of school.
And
he he found out during Covid that he had Stage 4 brain cancer. And he was a neuroscientist. He knew when he saw the scan. Hey! That's my! He used to call it. My runway is short.
(07:59):
He's in the hospital by himself. His wife drops him off at the door. She can't come into the hospital because of Covid protocols. His sons are sitting back at home.
and I asked him, I said, how did you handle receiving that news? He said. I sat in this bed by myself in the dark, and I mourned the loss of the future life. I thought I was going to have. He was a young man
(08:21):
for about 48 h, and then this is what he shared with me, because then you popped into my head, and all the years I've been telling you, everything happens for you, not to you. And I decided that cancer was going to happen for me, not to me.
Over the next 11 months of his life he put out over a hundred 80 pieces of content
to teach people how to die.
(08:42):
He folded in his his boys he folded in his wife, he folded in people like me to come and be interviewed, and communicate, and talk and put it out there. He put all of his conscious capitalism relationships. So I always say to my clients, no matter how bad of a day you're having.
If someone can decide that stage 4 cancer that is shortening their life is happening for them, not to them. We can overcome anything.
Govindh Jayaraman (09:04):
You know there's a so much power in what you just shared, and I don't want to skip over any of it, because you just dropped a lot.
Danny Friedland, who had been your coach, your mentor for many years in his moment.
where he realized his runway was short. In the moment that he was mourning the loss of the life. He thought he had
(09:28):
remembered the counsel that he had given you to find his way back.
Isn't that fascinating like. I think a lot of people
who are in the business of leadership, and who are leading others sometimes struggle with taking their own advice back. But what a great, what a great mirror! Isn't it like?
(09:50):
Isn't that amazing?
Todd Palmer (09:52):
I say to my clients, I have some wonderful human beings that I get to work with, and they'll say, Thank you so much. You've taught me this. Thank you so much. You've given me that, and I'll say, Hey, no, thank you.
I've learned more from you than I probably have taught you because it is a challenge, and if we want to live, at least for me, if I want to live authentically, I can't say to my clients.
(10:12):
Hey, Barb? Hey, Bob, you know everything happens for you not to me and me sit in the Delta Club complaining that my flight's delayed. It's now there is a space in there where, like Danny talked about.
where for about 48 h he mourned. He went through his process and
breaks my heart. He went through it alone. His wife is sitting out of the parking lot or sitting at home, and they can facetime. But he's
(10:36):
I'm a big believer in human connection, and so he's not able to have that energetic exchange with his boys or his wife.
and that breaks my heart even every time I think about it because Danny was such a warm human being, such a loving human being. But when we coach people, we have such amazing opportunities to learn from them, and if we live authentically and we live.
(10:57):
we live. The words we teach, we live, the words we coach, and we show up authentic, transparent, and vulnerable things will come back to us when our clients say I don't think you're showing up as who you portray yourself to be, or you tell yourself. I'm not showing up who I portray myself to be, but it's a matter of the opportunity presents itself in the room or in the conversations with the clients, and I can't say to you, if I was coaching you, sir, that
(11:22):
everything happens for me, not to me, and then sit there and complain about it. I'm literally out of alignment with who I am.
Govindh Jayaraman (11:28):
Right.
And there's it's it's funny how things work around. We we were texting on the weekend
about a video that you shared with me, and we were talking about how
you know sometimes, when sharing their journeys, some people
(11:50):
project something about themselves that may or may not be true, and what makes valuable what makes a valuable coaching relationship? We were sort of discussing what what's valuable for people to learn from? And doesn't this all come together a little bit, because it's it. You know there is a difference between portraying and projecting, and but projecting is also. We see the world as we are, not as it is. And if we are able
(12:17):
to really understand that this is happening for me, we can project
our true energy into that environment, our true choices, our true faculty. And you talked about that right that our ability to
even access the part of our brain that gives us creativity, empathy, compassion.
(12:39):
all of that comes back to us, doesn't it?
Todd Palmer (12:42):
It does, and it's what I loved. What I learned from Danny is. He taught me how to coach myself in the moments when he wasn't available. So I can do that with the technique. So I say to my clients, I said, my job is to coach you
until I'm not available, and then your job is to learn how to coach yourself and for me. Anyways, it's my version of what I call the burden of awareness.
Govindh Jayaraman (13:03):
Well.
Todd Palmer (13:04):
I'm whining and complaining. There's a part of my brain saying, Hey, you know better, hey? You wouldn't put up. You wouldn't challenge. You would challenge a client to show up differently. You wouldn't put up with this from others. Why are you doing this? And it's in that space of that awareness
that oh, that doesn't serve me well.
(13:24):
And again, there's a period for mourning. For listen, we're going to have disappointment. We lose contracts, we lose relationships. We lose family members, we will lose things through the course of our lives.
In that space of losing that situation. We have a lot of choices. So many people rob themselves of the choice
of what to do about that. What I needed to do for me years ago was resume back into a position of having some control of how I'm going to choose to react to the circumstances that were going on around me. Because that's where my power lied.
(14:00):
The reality is, disappointments are going to happen. Frustrations are going to happen. Sadness is going to happen. How long am I going to wrap myself in it? How long am I going to stay there versus? I'm going to give myself 2 days to be upset about this situation, or I'm going to give myself 2 h to be upset about my flight.
How am I going to process that in a way that gets me back? Because ultimately
(14:20):
I want to feel better, and the only way I can feel better is moving out of my amygdala when I know my body is safe, and moving into my neocortex to open up different possibilities.
Govindh Jayaraman (14:32):
We will lose things in our lives.
But really will choice be one of them. Right? That. And that's decision. You talk about decisions. Decisions. You know, there's
choosing to chase happiness versus satisfaction you talked about, you know, Dr. Danny Friedland
mourning the life that he lost, and then deciding something else.
(14:54):
What does that deciding process look like? I mean, I think that's the hard part for a lot of people. People feel
encumbered by the weight of whatever's happening that they feel I don't have the ability to choose. I am unable to choose. What would you say? There.
Todd Palmer (15:12):
Love that great question. The 1st thing that comes to mind is good to great Jim Collins. The Stockdale paradox.
Admiral Stackdale talked about it eloquently in this book, about
my brutal reality is, I'm a pow.
I'm not going anywhere anytime soon.
so every day I have to choose Viktor Frankl man's search for meaning. They choose you're in a concentration camp. You're in a pow camp.
(15:39):
I'm stuck in the Delta Club. Nobody should feel bad for me, right, but it's the power of choice, and it's not a technique and a skill that at least I know I wasn't taught in school. So it's 1st and foremost, it's it's deciding what's not working for me
and for me, feeling like a victim or a martyr around my business 1015 years ago, feeling like a victim or a martyr around the relationship I had at the time with my son wasn't working for me it just wasn't.
(16:09):
and I can choose a different path. I don't need to know what the
most people get so wrapped up as well. I need to know
how it's going to play out.
I need to know how it's going to play, Danny decided. I've decided I'm going to make
the rest of my life the best of my life. He didn't know what it was going to look like.
but but you let your brain settle and it relaxes, and then neocortex opens up possibilities and then you decide, well, I'm gonna try this, and it goes like, Oh, wow! I don't know how to die. Most of us don't know how to die. I'm gonna teach you all how to die.
(16:41):
Okay, that would be amazing.
Because I don't know anybody. I mean, we can certainly talk about, regardless of religious beliefs or thought process, or what have you what it may look like? This is a person who's literally going to document their process of going through it. Who is
a leading educator, a thought leader in the purest sense, not in the Instagram sense of being a thought leader, but a real thought leader who who understands how your brain works, and how he has to move from his amygdala to his neocortex.
(17:10):
and how we do those things we get so wrapped up in. Well, this is how it should play out.
If you look at the active learning cycle. Friedland talked a lot about that, you know. Top of the top of the, you know. Think of the active learning cycle like a clock. 12 o'clock is this isn't what's not working for me.
Number 3 o'clock.
My intention around it versus my expectation around that. Then I'm going to put a plan in place at 6 o'clock, and then I'm going to get feedback at 9 o'clock, and you iterate through that process. So for me, what's working what's not working for me is feel like a victim or martyr. So my intention, not my expectation, is, I want to feel better. So I'm going to tell myself the mantra that everything happens for me not to me.
(17:49):
I want to put that in a feedback loop. Well, that worked out pretty, you know. It happened with business. I lost a client. Well, I don't like that very much. But how is this happening for me? Not to me? What did I learn? And then I'm gonna get feedback from it and iterate and iterate and iterate.
So there's a lot of different concepts that fold into that process of how to move from fight, flight and fear to higher thinking, to feel living a more satisfied life. I wish there was a more simple answer.
Govindh Jayaraman (18:13):
No, but it is. It is. I think that's a really interesting set of steps, like sort of noticing where you are and noticing the decision that you're really about to make.
shifting from intention, you know, to to intention, from expectation, planning, getting feedback
and then seeing where you're at and repeating the process right? It's not.
(18:35):
Where have you noticed for yourself that you got stuck in that where you couldn't get past noticed? I think a lot of people, I think.
Forget that.
And you said it. You said it real quickly that they need to know how it's going to turn out before they take the 1st step. But
doesn't Faith have a role in this, like, you know, taking the 1st step without knowing where you're going, is a big part of it. Just take that step.
Todd Palmer (19:01):
It is faith you can plug in lots of different definitions of faith. For me it's a matter of
I just give up as best I can, the need to be right
and the need to know the way it's going to go instead, I say.
like, I recently spoke at a at an event. And
(19:23):
there was a lot of technical difficulties. A lot of them
things weren't working. And what have you and I just decided
that I'm going to speak from essence, and I'm going to give the room my very best, and the room will give me what I need. I'm going to give up that feeling and the myth of being in control.
because we have that myth of being in control.
(19:45):
What is it?
what does Mike Tyson say? Everybody's got a plan until you get punched in the mouth.
giving up that feeling of control now at the very base of our of our existence as human beings.
We really only want to feel 2 things.
We want to feel like we have a semblance of power and control.
(20:05):
and we get that when we feel, seen, heard, known, and accepted. When we don't have those things we then don't. We don't have safety we don't trust, and then we feel out of power and control, and that can happen in your brain. In the blink of an eye you can have a fight with a spouse or a fight with a kid. All of a sudden you feel out of control. You feel powerless. It's reminding us for me. I guess the biggest pivot was to come up with the remembrance
(20:31):
that if I
root myself in massive curiosity around, why, this is happening for me, not to me it slows my thinking down. It's that amygdala hijack interruption. I got to interrupt it or it's gonna run its course. And I've seen I've known people. It can run its course for literally years on people.
Govindh Jayaraman (20:51):
Yeah, yeah, I mean, I'm sure I've lost more time than I care to mention about it.
So here's the other part. I think that people get caught up on. And I want
you to share what you think about this.
When people say stuff like everything in life happens for me and not to me. Everybody thinks, oh, that means it's all sunshine and lollipops. Does it have to be good for me
(21:15):
right like?
Are we assuming, then, that everything that's happening for me is good inherently.
Todd Palmer (21:24):
I think we assume that everything that happens to you going back to something you said. Everything that happens to everything that happened is an opportunity.
Govindh Jayaraman (21:31):
Right.
Todd Palmer (21:32):
Doesn't. I think good is subjective. What could be good for you? What could be good for me could be different.
It's it's subjective, or it's subjective in a way where.
if your business is struggling and you have to shut it down.
there's going to be a period of mourning for most people. I think.
(21:55):
Go through that period. But how does shutting down this business happen for me? Not to me?
How does that? How does that work? Because if you tell yourself like, I would tell myself I call it the itty, bitty, shitty committee. When I was losing my company back in 0 6, I was really good at being the victim to all things, and the bank was the evil doer, and my clients were the evildoers, and I was really good at building my list of enemies.
(22:18):
but I had no power in that.
The reality is, I pick the clients. I pick the bank, and I pick the employees. So who's really responsible for this? It's me
now that's not something I came to quickly, so I don't want to portray like. Oh, I just woke up one day and I decided to know it took a while. And we also, you know, we get reinforcement through childhood. Neural pathways get grooved into our brain of these things, and from the messages from parents and schools and social media. And what have you?
(22:46):
The reality is.
anything can happen for you, not to you. So let me let me step back for a second just because I say something, does it? Something happened for me doesn't mean it's not painful.
I mean. Danny literally told me he wept when he realized his what runway was sure he was. Physically he was. I was curled up on a ball, and I was in pain, sobbing.
(23:08):
That's real.
The the technique doesn't eliminate that paint.
I remember I said to him one time I was I was in a previous marriage, and I'm like
I just don't want to hurt. So I don't think I should try very hard. He's like you're going to hurt anyways.
if you don't leave it all on the field, how are you going to feel? You talk to me in sports analogies a lot.
(23:32):
I said. Well, I'm going to feel like I didn't give it my very best. He's like you will feel better if you remind yourself you gave it your very best, even if it doesn't work out, because what you won't live with is the pain of regret. You can. You can have the pain of loss, of the relationship that makes sense. But you don't want to double that with the pain of regret, sitting on top of that, blew my mind. So when that relationship ended I was able to be good with me and clean with her around. I know I did my very best.
(24:03):
so I just. But people think it's going to remove the pain. It's not going to. It doesn't work that way.
Govindh Jayaraman (24:10):
No. And so the pain's going to come anyway.
And this is what I this is what I
was trying to get at before when I asked you.
everything in life happens for me and not to me. Does it mean, does does it have to be good? And the answer is, no.
it doesn't mean that it's good or bad, or it doesn't mean that it means anything. It's just an opportunity.
Todd Palmer (24:31):
That's it.
Govindh Jayaraman (24:32):
To make a choice. So when we say that we want to control things.
isn't it a choice to decide that we can, we can try to control an outcome.
or we can try to control an action.
And the only there's only one thing that we actually have control over the action. We take right.
Todd Palmer (24:53):
So I see what you're saying. There is the
before the action, at least for me. I'm not saying you're wrong before I take an action. I have to get into a position of awareness that I have a power to make a different choice which creates a different action.
Govindh Jayaraman (25:10):
What what I mean is, yes, there's a process to get there.
Todd Palmer (25:14):
Yes.
Govindh Jayaraman (25:15):
Right, however, absolutely you cannot control an outcome.
Outcomes are beyond.
Todd Palmer (25:23):
Only control your reaction to it.
Govindh Jayaraman (25:24):
Exactly.
Todd Palmer (25:25):
That is true in my experience. That is true.
Govindh Jayaraman (25:27):
So so we're talking about this from a leadership perspective. And we're talking about how we feel
right, how we feel about it, how these things are happening to us, and and or sorry not to us, but for us, and understanding how to shift.
noticing that, moving to intention, from expectation, creating a plan.
(25:52):
getting some feedback and then going through that loop again.
How do we support our teams to do this? Because I think, as leaders, we have to do this for ourselves. We have to
shift the perspective for ourselves, but
we also need to lead our teams through that.
How do we do that?
Todd Palmer (26:13):
I think you lead from the front.
Govindh Jayaraman (26:15):
Okay.
Todd Palmer (26:15):
I used to talk to my team extensively about
how things were happening for us, not to us as a company.
you know, as a recruiting firm.
My, my old business was a company named diversified industrial staffing, and we are nothing. We were nothing more than matchmakers. We were the, you know match.com of the staffing world. I took a candidate, matched it with a client, and then we got paid. Money fell to the bottom.
(26:44):
There's so much in that process of trying to get somebody who's maybe looking for a job to work for a company who might want to hire them.
We are so much beyond our control. We couldn't. So what could we? That's a result. We would
getting paid. It was a result. Kpi. We made, we booked revenue.
What? What we doubled down as what activity Kpis, can we control?
(27:09):
We're in the middle of the recession here in Detroit in 0 8 0 9.
Nobody's hiding. Unemployment went from 4% to 14%. The one category as a business you don't need is a recruiter. There's plenty of bodies on the street.
Well, that was the business I was in, and we had enough business thankfully, because we had diversified just enough to keep our head above water. So I had a very skeleton staff.
(27:31):
and so, instead of measuring just the revenue or the placements or the billed hours.
we started measuring what were the daily activities everybody did at their desk.
because that's what we could control. So we used to literally have a failure of the day campaign. How many? No's can you get not? How many yeses can you get?
And we would sit there, and I would sit with the team in the bullpen, and I would lead by example, so I would call up and say.
(27:55):
Hey, I know you're not hiring but what
you know, but when you do hire, what are you going to hire, for
you know that it took us about 2 weeks to figure out that language because we just had to slog through it.
So Jeremy's talking and Lisa's talking, and I'm talking.
and we would meet like at lunch, and we meet at the end of the day just to kind of like
commiserate, because nobody was buying.
(28:18):
and we started hearing the same pattern over and over again that when we get out of this economic situation and we will, we're going to be hiring for this type of candidate. It was called the Mazak Masatrol.
Cnc programmer. A very specialized skill set. So I thought, Okay, that's what the marketplace is going to be looking for in 6 to 12 months. Great.
On the other side of my business. I had Carrie and Becky and other people who were my candidate people, I said, All right, the market's going to be looking for this person. Go build an inventory.
(28:47):
go build an inventory. Then I thought, Okay.
how is this happening for me? Not to me. Okay, I've got an inventory. I'm gonna start marketing it back to the potential buyer. So we become top of mind, and 1st in line, when they need that person. All of a sudden the phone starts ringing.
Oh, my, gosh, your guy's exactly what we're going to be looking for. I got approval from ownership to make a hire during a hiring freeze, because these people are impossible to find.
(29:11):
I have no idea if the client was ever looking for them, but we were looking for them, and we were stockpiling them. The inventory that was huge in turning this business around because I had the inventory, I was able to to grab a hold of the supply chain. I got the inventory that you're going to need one day, and we just marketed it back
versus, well, there's no jobs. Okay? Well, we'll just sit around and wait for the phone to ring.
Govindh Jayaraman (29:33):
And that speaks back to your point earlier on to giving up the need to be right
and replacing it with a deep curiosity for what's really happening.
and asking the questions and holding space for the answer and being, if you're genuinely curious about what's going on for somebody.
they'll tell you if you're Gen. If you're curious because you want to sell them, they know.
Todd Palmer (29:57):
Right.
Govindh Jayaraman (29:58):
Right. But if you're curious because you're curious, and you're asking great questions.
give up the need to be right
and and adopt a more curious mindset. You're going to get some real information right?
Todd Palmer (30:12):
It's
people, I think, by and large people want to tell you the truth, but they don't want to be sold. And
you know it's
so many people. I certainly would put myself in this category for many, many years I would die on the hill of being right versus being happy.
(30:33):
The reality is Jahari window 101.
There's that 4th quartile in the Jahari window where there's a part of you that I don't know. There's also a part of you. You don't know. So if I believe that actually for me, what I did is
I just believe that quartile was the crux of everything.
It's the crux of everything. So there's always a part of me. I'm not going to know there's always a part of me. You're not going to know what by ipso facto.
(30:57):
I can't know everything.
because I have a hidden part to me, and I am me, and I have a hidden part to you now you could have a part of me that shows up that I'm aware that you can put some spotlight on. But if I if I embrace that
that removes the pressure to always be right.
Your move is the pressure for me to defend myself and to invalidate you when you call me out on something. So it actually gives me more satisfying life because I don't have to be right all the time, because in the reality is, there's always a part of the circumstance. There's always a part of the dynamic between me and another person that I don't know about.
Govindh Jayaraman (31:34):
And this goes back to your point. That Dr. Danny Friedland gave you about chasing happiness is impossible.
and replacing it with satisfaction.
Satisfactions were, the, you know, a worthy goal.
Todd Palmer (31:49):
It's the hero's journey. Every journey is a journey of satisfaction, and when you get enough money you get enough toys, you get enough things, and you still feel empty. Like most people I run into, it's like, well, so
what's really the issue? Well, the issue typically at least in my experience is we're trying to get fill in an internal emptiness with an external feed. And that external feed will typically go through us like a sieve and end up behind us because it doesn't collect, because the emptiness is so so vast.
Govindh Jayaraman (32:20):
Right.
So when we go back to this, everything in life happens for me and not to me.
And we talk about bringing our team through that process and modeling it.
You also said that you did something physical today to change your state.
Right?
(32:40):
You know you you were wearing well, like me. You were wearing black clothing
and you shifted it into the salmon clothing.
Does that play a role like changing your state? Does that play a role into this.
Todd Palmer (32:54):
For me. It does. It's it's
it's the power of the uniform, you know. If if you're going to go out.
I said this to my son the other day he was like, Yeah, I came home, and I was really in a crappy mood. I said, did you change your shirt? He's like, why would I do that? I said, because you're in your work uniform
when you come home. Put on your husband uniform, he's like, Oh.
so yeah, it's literally it's that physical experience of removing one garment and putting another garment on. When I go play baseball, I put on a baseball uniform. I don't play baseball in a suit.
(33:24):
you know. It's the body we we have roles.
you know, when we go to, you know, back in the day when my staff would come to work. Everybody had to wear a collared shirt.
Except for Fridays, Fridays, you get to wear a T-shirt. It's like this is how you show up.
People go to in Detroit. They go to manufacturing plants, and they wear overalls with their name sewn on it. That's their work uniform. They don't wear that on the weekends when they're playing softball or bowling that this is their uniform? No, what they do is they wear a softball uniform, or when they go to church they wear a suit and tie, or whatever they do, we as creatures. When we change our physical garb, it reminds our brains that we're not at work, or we're not at church. We're at softball.
Govindh Jayaraman (34:07):
Yeah, it's really important. And and today, in a time when more and more people are working
remote working in hybrid environments, isn't that even more important right to change.
You're unified.
Todd Palmer (34:20):
I make myself every day. I literally work from home 99% of the time I come home, or I come down in my office, and I wear something with, you know, something professional, you know, for the environment. I'll wear a collared shirt or whatever.
and it just sets my mindset for the day that I'm in work. Mode
also sends a message to my family like, Hey, I'm in work mode. So no, I'm not going to take out the garbage right now. I'm in work mode. I'll take out the garbage tonight, or, Hey, no, I can't go do this or this right now, because I'm in work mode.
(34:49):
I have to announce to them like, Hey, I'm on a 3 h break if you need anything, I'm available to you, and yes, I'm in my work close, but I'll still do it.
Govindh Jayaraman (34:55):
Right.
So what?
What do you notice? Let's start with you. What? What did you notice shifted when you followed Danny Friedland's
pathway right around things happening. For for you versus to you.
Todd Palmer (35:18):
My relationship with the world got a whole lot calmer.
calm relationship. I can be very intense, and I can be very impatient.
I used to have this phrase when I ran diversified. It's like, you know, and he'd done today.
yesterday would have been better, and tomorrow is too late. So it transferred a lot of stress and pressure to my team.
Govindh Jayaraman (35:42):
And it was the immediacy, the immediacy, the race against the clock.
Todd Palmer (35:46):
In the recruiting world. We always would say that we're always against the race, against the clock, because the candidates only on the market for so long. The company's only gonna have an opening for so long. And it's our job to match that sense of have a sense of urgency that exceeds their timelines, so that we're ahead of the pack versus being laissez-faire. Well, that's I guess, okay in the work world. But I would bring that to my home.
(36:08):
and it was bigger, faster, more now. Well, that's intense, and that's not sustainable. It's like fuel. Danny used to talk about fuel. What
it happens for me not to me. It is a clean, burning gasoline to get me from Los Angeles to New York.
The way I was operating was on nitrous. A funny car fuel that would get me from downtown Los Angeles out to Compton, and no further. It was intense and it was awesome. Then it burns out, and so I felt for me. At 1 point in my career I was going to burn out, and that wasn't sustainable for my life. I knew it was going to take a toll on my physical part, my mental part in my relationships, and that wasn't acceptable to me.
Govindh Jayaraman (36:46):
Yeah. And the other problem with nitrous is, you can blow out the engine. And that's even. That's a bigger problem.
Todd Palmer (36:51):
Exactly, and.
Govindh Jayaraman (36:53):
So.
that's interesting. So when you, when you share this with clients, right when you share this in your work, and I know it's a big part of how you work.
It's it's
a version of this, I think, is woven into our conversations that we've had so far. So I know it's a big part of you, and I know Danny Friedland's a big part of you.
(37:16):
So what do you see? Shift for other people when they do this?
Todd Palmer (37:22):
Wow!
1st thing that comes to mind with clients is they?
It's an unburdening to the shackles of the past, thinking they've never considered.
Oh, wow! So losing a client can happen for me not to me.
(37:42):
Having a fight with my spouse can happen for me, not to me.
I can
use the active learning cycle, and I can reappraise this, and I can approach it differently. I can
do a mantra to stop.
you know. I think, think so. Many high performers in my experience are somewhere in their lives, whether childhood or adulthood, they.
(38:05):
they've learned that the harder they are on themselves.
sometimes the least kind they are to themselves, and others will allow them to perform better.
Govindh Jayaraman (38:14):
Hmm.
Todd Palmer (38:15):
And they will die or die trying. And
as I found, as I've gotten older, I just don't have the energy for that anymore. I have a client who's under the age of 30, and I just taught her the this is happening for me, not to me.
In the look of relief on her face was measurable. She looked, you know, 5 years younger, I'm like, how did that land with you? I just get curious. She's like
(38:40):
told a story. Well, you know my dad told me this, and this is how you behave as an entrepreneur. These are what you do like, Whoa! That's a way to do it. It's a way to do it.
You've been doing that since you started your business. How is that working for you? She says it's not.
It doesn't work. And it's
impacting relationships with with my family, my fiance. But it's also impacting my relationship. And how I see myself.
(39:07):
I don't like it when I show up that way.
That's important to pay attention to.
Govindh Jayaraman (39:12):
Bye, I love this unburdening, and I love that lightning that you're and isn't it? Isn't it true
that when we embrace this kind of a philosophy.
We also embrace the fact that you know
the future isn't laid out in front of us. It's not done yet.
Todd Palmer (39:32):
No.
Govindh Jayaraman (39:33):
And and this one decision doesn't mean 40 more. Just means one.
Todd Palmer (39:40):
You and I have done this a long time. You help a business, lay out a five-year plan.
lay out a three-year plan. You lay out a 1-year plan.
I have clients that laid out a 1 year Plan that by January, because of changes they could not control with tariffs and other government choices here in the Us. Those plans are literally
completely null and void.
Govindh Jayaraman (40:00):
Hmm.
Todd Palmer (40:02):
It's it's not. And they beat themselves up in their itty, bitty, shitty committee says I should have seen that coming. I had clients during, Covid said, I should have seen Covid coming.
Really.
tell me why you feel that way, because they have such a such an ownership and a feeling of needing to feel power, needing to feel in control that they should be Nostradamus and be able to predict the future like that. And then we sometimes, as coach say. Well, you must have a 10 year, a 5 year, 3 year, a 1 year plan set the vision for the company. So you know the roadmap you're going to take.
(40:30):
Well.
I had a roadmap for my honeymoon, and we were leaving Detroit at 10 Am. We left at 4 Pm. And a roadmap. We had to pivot because things beyond my control
change that we, as leaders going back to how do we lead our people
if we handle the blows from government society business family. We show up and we model like, okay, that was the plan. Now we have a different plan. You know. See, I saw a hundred years ago I saw Colin Powell speak, and he talked. It was in an entrepreneurship event, and he talked about how
(41:03):
we act as entrepreneurs, and he was so funny because you all act like you're making life and death decisions.
He goes. I actually make them
fair point, General fair Point. He goes. You all make like, you need 100% of the information to make a decision. He goes. I make life and death decisions sometimes with less than 20% of the information.
So I have to rapidly iterate. Because if I get a new data point and I'm going to send troops over to the right, and they're going to get wiped out by the enemy. I
(41:30):
well, that was the plan, and we're going to stick to the plan. No, I pivot them to the left, so that I'm not writing letters to mothers who've lost their sons because you need to learn to rapidly iterate.
Govindh Jayaraman (41:41):
Right, and I think that's that's so valuable. The
the thing that's really I love this unburdening. I love how
you know, even in in your telling of Danny Friedland story, how he unburdened himself
in one way, shape or form. But unburdening doesn't mean the pain goes away. It just means that you can
(42:07):
make a choice, make a decision that might give you some momentum in a different direction. Right? It gives you an opportunity. It gives you the opportunity to see the opportunity that exists amidst the chaos.
Todd Palmer (42:22):
It's
I have a client who recently went through the situation of having to decide to terminate half their staff.
It was painful. These are long-term relationships.
The reality is.
they could not afford to keep the entire staff. There wasn't enough business coming in the door, and there there was. No, there was no forecasting, their landscape had changed.
(42:48):
and I would say, How is this happening for you? Not to you?
And there was a lot of resistance finally came. I was like, well, you know, I've taken a look at the circumstances. I'm able. I contacted an AI specialist, and I've been able to outsource basically 8 jobs to AI and save myself a couple 1 million dollars in payroll.
(43:09):
And I go. Well, those people will find jobs. Then we tell ourselves the story that people will not be able to find jobs talked about it in my book. I fired my entire company in one day back in 2,006, and started over all those people found jobs.
Did they like me? Probably not.
That's okay.
I don't begrudge them. It's okay.
(43:30):
The reality is, I was a single parent.
The bank was threatening to take my house, and I needed to survive.
and sometimes we have to make different decisions fast forward. Now, because of all that ick in 2,006 to 2,010 that i 1 put upon myself, 2 worked my way through. Now I get the blessing of coaching a lot of different people from an experiential standpoint during chaos and crisis of current times.
Govindh Jayaraman (43:54):
Right. And you know, by the way.
there's chaos and crisis right now.
Todd Palmer (43:59):
There's totally chaos and crisis right now.
Govindh Jayaraman (44:01):
And if we really look back at it, though.
there's always some version of chaos and crisis.
Todd Palmer (44:08):
Oh, for sure!
Govindh Jayaraman (44:09):
Right. So
I think I think there's so much there I want. I want to end in a slightly different way today than we've we've done before, but but
but certainly we've we've done this, too, as you know. John Ruland passed away 6 months ago.
and when he passed away we started the tradition of ending every podcast with his
(44:37):
inspired theme of what you appreciate, appreciates, and putting some gratitude into the world to perpetuate his legacy.
Where would you like to share some gratitude? Who would you like to appreciate today.
Todd Palmer (44:51):
Oh, gosh!
Love that
I just!
I'm so lucky and blessed!
I have such an appreciation and gratefulness to
my wife Jennifer, our daughter Etta, my son Tyler, for
(45:14):
the guilt-free freedom they give me to go out and live my best life in serving my clients and traveling and going out into the world.
and the the sense of
acceptance versus I hear this from a lot of people who travel a lot. It's like, Oh, you're gone again you're gone again. That shame and guilt gets woven into those relationships.
(45:38):
they realized, and they've supported me. When I'm living my best life. It allows me to be the best husband and father for them, and that's ultimately those are the memories I'm going to leave this earth with.
and I'm certainly I mean I could go on for gratitude and appreciation for hours. In fact, I'm still on. I'm still on my Eo Forum, and we
every month we have a 5 min section of gratitudes and appreciations to express. So I'm all in with the John Ruland process.
Govindh Jayaraman (46:04):
Fantastic thanks, Todd, I know I'll see you again.
Todd Palmer (46:07):
Yeah, I hope so.
Govindh Jayaraman (46:09):
All right.
Todd Palmer. Welcome back to paper! Napkin wisdom! I'm thrilled to have you back again.
Todd Palmer (00:08):
I'm more thrilled to be here. Thanks for having me back.
Govindh Jayaraman (00:10):
So this is, this is fun. We were. We were making a joke about Jon Hamm getting his golden jacket on Saturday live, and you were asking about yours, but you know you don't need one, because you're channeling Spring right now. Look at you.
Todd Palmer (00:23):
There you go!
Govindh Jayaraman (00:24):
You're like a ray of sunshine.
Todd Palmer (00:25):
Well, I'm blessed. I got to spend some time recently in Mexico and in Texas, where the sun shines as compared to Detroit, which sun doesn't always shine here. So I got that. And then, you know, I decided today that today part of our theme is today was, gonna Be a good day. Everything was going to happen for me, not to me, and I had a 14 h day booked out, and I started my day wearing black, which is not a really a good positive color. So I thought, You know what? I'm going to change it up a little bit. I'm going to be the energy in the sun that I'd like to cascade into your audience.
Govindh Jayaraman (00:54):
That's fantastic. I love it. I love it so. If people are just listening and not watching, Todd looks, you know, uncharacteristically, for a Northerner, tanned and sun kissed, and is wearing a nice salmon.
Todd Palmer (01:08):
Yes, sir.
Govindh Jayaraman (01:09):
So bringing sunshine into the show, so wanted to make sure that everybody listening can hear that as well. All right, you shared a really interesting napkin for me, and you sort of teased it in your little intro there. But your napkin says everything in life happens for me and not to me.
(01:30):
why did you share that with me?
Todd Palmer (01:32):
Oh.
I think especially now we're recording this, you know, in mid year 2025, there are so many people I work with as their coach, where they're acting as if life and government changes and tariffs, and life is happening to them.
and they show up in a very sad state of being either the victim or the martyr, and I can relate to that. I used to show up that way, too. So when I was working with Dr. Friedland, my coach, Dr. Danny Friedland. He gave me a phrase that truly changed my life, and the phrase is this, everything in life happens for you not to you.
(02:08):
So, as I was looking at where we are in the landscape of today for entrepreneurs, business leaders and just human beings on the planet Earth, especially here in the United States and up where you are up in Canada, there's so much that people feel like is happening to them. I wanted to give a tool to your audience, so they can reappraise that reframe that, and get out of that victim or martyr mindset, should they be having one.
Govindh Jayaraman (02:29):
Yeah, so well, 1st of all, I
people like you and I get called on to speak a lot and talk a lot with clients and other people at this time in these kinds of places, because chaos creates a lot of confusion
in my mind. Chaos creates a lot of opportunity, and I think this is what you're really talking about here. This is the heart of some of what you're sharing. But why did Dr. Danny Friedland share this message with you, and why did it resonate with you so much when he did.
Todd Palmer (03:02):
Great question.
I was at a place in my life where I was. My business had turned around. The relationship with my son was
tenuous. It was proving but tenuous, and I just would say to him.
You know, I just don't understand why I'm not happier. I want to be happy. I'm checking a lot of boxes. You know the the laundry list I had of what was going to make me happy from an external position.
(03:31):
and he he called it out, he said, well, 1st of all, if all you're doing is pursuing and chasing happiness you're never going to, you're never going to get there, because happiness is nothing more than a spike of dopamine.
Instead, change the word in your thought process to satisfaction. Satisfaction is part of the hero's journey. Whether it's you know, someone from Shakespeare's days, or to someone from the Star Wars universe, or the Lord of the Rings Universe, whether it's Luke Skywalker, Frodo, or someone from Shakespeare's time who goes on this hero's journey on that journey. There's highs and lows. It's not all just a trajectory from from 0 to 100 straight up the mountain.
(04:09):
And I said, Well, how do I do that? He goes. You need to tell yourself that every single thing that happens to you in life happens for you, not to you. And he gave me an example of a car accident. He gave me other examples of things like you're in a car accident. You have the right of way a car hits you.
You don't control that. The car hits you. What you do is you control how you react to it.
(04:30):
and you can get out. You can go after, you know. Say, it's a senior citizen, you say. Well, weren't you paying attention. What were you doing? Or you say, Oh, my gosh! Are you okay?
What were you thinking? Check with them? You can go from an aggressive position to a compassionate position and several other categories in between. But what that does is it puts you back in the position of feeling powerful. It puts you back into the position of not being a victim or a martyr to the circumstances. And then for me, what that does is, anything that happens, whether it's a i had this happen a couple weeks ago. My flight was delayed not one time, but 5 times. As I'm leaving for my honeymoon.
(05:05):
my wife and I sat in the Delta Club and decided to start our honeymoon there versus when we arrived in Mexico, and we had some of the most powerful conversations in the 8 years we've been together, because we decided that this delay
through for weather reasons, was happening for us, not to us. So we decided to practice that anywhere we go because it makes our lives more enriched versus sitting and complaining and whining about things we don't have any control over like a delayed flight.
Govindh Jayaraman (05:33):
I love that I love. I love how it reframes really, quickly.
What's happening
and what's happening is only my perspective or your perspective, or our perspective on what's happening, even right? Because we could say, tariffs are happening. No, there's a change happening which is really the core of it. And what do we do about it? What do we do next? And it gives us the ability to consider our actions, our perspective, doesn't it.
Todd Palmer (06:02):
Right absolutely, and the amygdala part of our brain moves 5 times faster than our neocortex. So if we do pattern interruption, and we tell our brain, hey? This is happening for us, not to us. It removes what's called the amygdala hijack. The amygdala wants to keep us safe, whether, again, whether it's around
car accidents, whether it's around business, whether it's around flight delays. Your brain wants to keep you safe. That's what it's there for, and so it fires you to the amygdala. But you say, well, wait a minute. This this flight delay could be happening for me, not to me. That allows me to re-engage my prefrontal cortex in a way
(06:40):
that removes and minimizes that amygdala hijack and allows me to move into executive function. Well, like you said, is this really a danger to me? No, it's an inconvenience. My flight is well. Is it really an inconvenience? And just stay there. Then I can approach the situation, just like in the car accident, example. With empathy and compassion versus aggression. I can move into strategic thinking versus reactive thinking. And then I can go into make a meaning of what is happening and create a longer term vision around again. Going back to my story about being stuck at the airport.
(07:09):
we decided. This is going to happen for us, not to us. We're going to make meaning in the moment. Now we were there for 4 and a half hours on a delayed flight. But we're going to make the best of this situation. And again Dr. Friedland was masterful at modeling that for me and teaching that to me, even in his final days, before he passed away.
Govindh Jayaraman (07:27):
How did he do that.
Todd Palmer (07:30):
So Danny found out, 11 months before he passed away, that he had stage 4 brain cancer. This is all public knowledge. He and I did a final interview that's out on Youtube about this. Danny was a big speaker in communities like Ypo conscious capitalism Eo, and he talked openly about this. So I'm not telling anything out of school.
And
he he found out during Covid that he had Stage 4 brain cancer. And he was a neuroscientist. He knew when he saw the scan. Hey! That's my! He used to call it. My runway is short.
(07:59):
He's in the hospital by himself. His wife drops him off at the door. She can't come into the hospital because of Covid protocols. His sons are sitting back at home.
and I asked him, I said, how did you handle receiving that news? He said. I sat in this bed by myself in the dark, and I mourned the loss of the future life. I thought I was going to have. He was a young man
(08:21):
for about 48 h, and then this is what he shared with me, because then you popped into my head, and all the years I've been telling you, everything happens for you, not to you. And I decided that cancer was going to happen for me, not to me.
Over the next 11 months of his life he put out over a hundred 80 pieces of content
to teach people how to die.
(08:42):
He folded in his his boys he folded in his wife, he folded in people like me to come and be interviewed, and communicate, and talk and put it out there. He put all of his conscious capitalism relationships. So I always say to my clients, no matter how bad of a day you're having.
If someone can decide that stage 4 cancer that is shortening their life is happening for them, not to them. We can overcome anything.
Govindh Jayaraman (09:04):
You know there's a so much power in what you just shared, and I don't want to skip over any of it, because you just dropped a lot.
Danny Friedland, who had been your coach, your mentor for many years in his moment.
where he realized his runway was short. In the moment that he was mourning the loss of the life. He thought he had
(09:28):
remembered the counsel that he had given you to find his way back.
Isn't that fascinating like. I think a lot of people
who are in the business of leadership, and who are leading others sometimes struggle with taking their own advice back. But what a great, what a great mirror! Isn't it like?
(09:50):
Isn't that amazing?
Todd Palmer (09:52):
I say to my clients, I have some wonderful human beings that I get to work with, and they'll say, Thank you so much. You've taught me this. Thank you so much. You've given me that, and I'll say, Hey, no, thank you.
I've learned more from you than I probably have taught you because it is a challenge, and if we want to live, at least for me, if I want to live authentically, I can't say to my clients.
(10:12):
Hey, Barb? Hey, Bob, you know everything happens for you not to me and me sit in the Delta Club complaining that my flight's delayed. It's now there is a space in there where, like Danny talked about.
where for about 48 h he mourned. He went through his process and
breaks my heart. He went through it alone. His wife is sitting out of the parking lot or sitting at home, and they can facetime. But he's
(10:36):
I'm a big believer in human connection, and so he's not able to have that energetic exchange with his boys or his wife.
and that breaks my heart even every time I think about it because Danny was such a warm human being, such a loving human being. But when we coach people, we have such amazing opportunities to learn from them, and if we live authentically and we live.
(10:57):
we live. The words we teach, we live, the words we coach, and we show up authentic, transparent, and vulnerable things will come back to us when our clients say I don't think you're showing up as who you portray yourself to be, or you tell yourself. I'm not showing up who I portray myself to be, but it's a matter of the opportunity presents itself in the room or in the conversations with the clients, and I can't say to you, if I was coaching you, sir, that
(11:22):
everything happens for me, not to me, and then sit there and complain about it. I'm literally out of alignment with who I am.
Govindh Jayaraman (11:28):
Right.
And there's it's it's funny how things work around. We we were texting on the weekend
about a video that you shared with me, and we were talking about how
you know sometimes, when sharing their journeys, some people
(11:50):
project something about themselves that may or may not be true, and what makes valuable what makes a valuable coaching relationship? We were sort of discussing what what's valuable for people to learn from? And doesn't this all come together a little bit, because it's it. You know there is a difference between portraying and projecting, and but projecting is also. We see the world as we are, not as it is. And if we are able
(12:17):
to really understand that this is happening for me, we can project
our true energy into that environment, our true choices, our true faculty. And you talked about that right that our ability to
even access the part of our brain that gives us creativity, empathy, compassion.
(12:39):
all of that comes back to us, doesn't it?
Todd Palmer (12:42):
It does, and it's what I loved. What I learned from Danny is. He taught me how to coach myself in the moments when he wasn't available. So I can do that with the technique. So I say to my clients, I said, my job is to coach you
until I'm not available, and then your job is to learn how to coach yourself and for me. Anyways, it's my version of what I call the burden of awareness.
Govindh Jayaraman (13:03):
Well.
Todd Palmer (13:04):
I'm whining and complaining. There's a part of my brain saying, Hey, you know better, hey? You wouldn't put up. You wouldn't challenge. You would challenge a client to show up differently. You wouldn't put up with this from others. Why are you doing this? And it's in that space of that awareness
that oh, that doesn't serve me well.
(13:24):
And again, there's a period for mourning. For listen, we're going to have disappointment. We lose contracts, we lose relationships. We lose family members, we will lose things through the course of our lives.
In that space of losing that situation. We have a lot of choices. So many people rob themselves of the choice
of what to do about that. What I needed to do for me years ago was resume back into a position of having some control of how I'm going to choose to react to the circumstances that were going on around me. Because that's where my power lied.
(14:00):
The reality is, disappointments are going to happen. Frustrations are going to happen. Sadness is going to happen. How long am I going to wrap myself in it? How long am I going to stay there versus? I'm going to give myself 2 days to be upset about this situation, or I'm going to give myself 2 h to be upset about my flight.
How am I going to process that in a way that gets me back? Because ultimately
(14:20):
I want to feel better, and the only way I can feel better is moving out of my amygdala when I know my body is safe, and moving into my neocortex to open up different possibilities.
Govindh Jayaraman (14:32):
We will lose things in our lives.
But really will choice be one of them. Right? That. And that's decision. You talk about decisions. Decisions. You know, there's
choosing to chase happiness versus satisfaction you talked about, you know, Dr. Danny Friedland
mourning the life that he lost, and then deciding something else.
(14:54):
What does that deciding process look like? I mean, I think that's the hard part for a lot of people. People feel
encumbered by the weight of whatever's happening that they feel I don't have the ability to choose. I am unable to choose. What would you say? There.
Todd Palmer (15:12):
Love that great question. The 1st thing that comes to mind is good to great Jim Collins. The Stockdale paradox.
Admiral Stackdale talked about it eloquently in this book, about
my brutal reality is, I'm a pow.
I'm not going anywhere anytime soon.
so every day I have to choose Viktor Frankl man's search for meaning. They choose you're in a concentration camp. You're in a pow camp.
(15:39):
I'm stuck in the Delta Club. Nobody should feel bad for me, right, but it's the power of choice, and it's not a technique and a skill that at least I know I wasn't taught in school. So it's 1st and foremost, it's it's deciding what's not working for me
and for me, feeling like a victim or a martyr around my business 1015 years ago, feeling like a victim or a martyr around the relationship I had at the time with my son wasn't working for me it just wasn't.
(16:09):
and I can choose a different path. I don't need to know what the
most people get so wrapped up as well. I need to know
how it's going to play out.
I need to know how it's going to play, Danny decided. I've decided I'm going to make
the rest of my life the best of my life. He didn't know what it was going to look like.
but but you let your brain settle and it relaxes, and then neocortex opens up possibilities and then you decide, well, I'm gonna try this, and it goes like, Oh, wow! I don't know how to die. Most of us don't know how to die. I'm gonna teach you all how to die.
(16:41):
Okay, that would be amazing.
Because I don't know anybody. I mean, we can certainly talk about, regardless of religious beliefs or thought process, or what have you what it may look like? This is a person who's literally going to document their process of going through it. Who is
a leading educator, a thought leader in the purest sense, not in the Instagram sense of being a thought leader, but a real thought leader who who understands how your brain works, and how he has to move from his amygdala to his neocortex.
(17:10):
and how we do those things we get so wrapped up in. Well, this is how it should play out.
If you look at the active learning cycle. Friedland talked a lot about that, you know. Top of the top of the, you know. Think of the active learning cycle like a clock. 12 o'clock is this isn't what's not working for me.
Number 3 o'clock.
My intention around it versus my expectation around that. Then I'm going to put a plan in place at 6 o'clock, and then I'm going to get feedback at 9 o'clock, and you iterate through that process. So for me, what's working what's not working for me is feel like a victim or martyr. So my intention, not my expectation, is, I want to feel better. So I'm going to tell myself the mantra that everything happens for me not to me.
(17:49):
I want to put that in a feedback loop. Well, that worked out pretty, you know. It happened with business. I lost a client. Well, I don't like that very much. But how is this happening for me? Not to me? What did I learn? And then I'm gonna get feedback from it and iterate and iterate and iterate.
So there's a lot of different concepts that fold into that process of how to move from fight, flight and fear to higher thinking, to feel living a more satisfied life. I wish there was a more simple answer.
Govindh Jayaraman (18:13):
No, but it is. It is. I think that's a really interesting set of steps, like sort of noticing where you are and noticing the decision that you're really about to make.
shifting from intention, you know, to to intention, from expectation, planning, getting feedback
and then seeing where you're at and repeating the process right? It's not.
(18:35):
Where have you noticed for yourself that you got stuck in that where you couldn't get past noticed? I think a lot of people, I think.
Forget that.
And you said it. You said it real quickly that they need to know how it's going to turn out before they take the 1st step. But
doesn't Faith have a role in this, like, you know, taking the 1st step without knowing where you're going, is a big part of it. Just take that step.
Todd Palmer (19:01):
It is faith you can plug in lots of different definitions of faith. For me it's a matter of
I just give up as best I can, the need to be right
and the need to know the way it's going to go instead, I say.
like, I recently spoke at a at an event. And
(19:23):
there was a lot of technical difficulties. A lot of them
things weren't working. And what have you and I just decided
that I'm going to speak from essence, and I'm going to give the room my very best, and the room will give me what I need. I'm going to give up that feeling and the myth of being in control.
because we have that myth of being in control.
(19:45):
What is it?
what does Mike Tyson say? Everybody's got a plan until you get punched in the mouth.
giving up that feeling of control now at the very base of our of our existence as human beings.
We really only want to feel 2 things.
We want to feel like we have a semblance of power and control.
(20:05):
and we get that when we feel, seen, heard, known, and accepted. When we don't have those things we then don't. We don't have safety we don't trust, and then we feel out of power and control, and that can happen in your brain. In the blink of an eye you can have a fight with a spouse or a fight with a kid. All of a sudden you feel out of control. You feel powerless. It's reminding us for me. I guess the biggest pivot was to come up with the remembrance
(20:31):
that if I
root myself in massive curiosity around, why, this is happening for me, not to me it slows my thinking down. It's that amygdala hijack interruption. I got to interrupt it or it's gonna run its course. And I've seen I've known people. It can run its course for literally years on people.
Govindh Jayaraman (20:51):
Yeah, yeah, I mean, I'm sure I've lost more time than I care to mention about it.
So here's the other part. I think that people get caught up on. And I want
you to share what you think about this.
When people say stuff like everything in life happens for me and not to me. Everybody thinks, oh, that means it's all sunshine and lollipops. Does it have to be good for me
(21:15):
right like?
Are we assuming, then, that everything that's happening for me is good inherently.
Todd Palmer (21:24):
I think we assume that everything that happens to you going back to something you said. Everything that happens to everything that happened is an opportunity.
Govindh Jayaraman (21:31):
Right.
Todd Palmer (21:32):
Doesn't. I think good is subjective. What could be good for you? What could be good for me could be different.
It's it's subjective, or it's subjective in a way where.
if your business is struggling and you have to shut it down.
there's going to be a period of mourning for most people. I think.
(21:55):
Go through that period. But how does shutting down this business happen for me? Not to me?
How does that? How does that work? Because if you tell yourself like, I would tell myself I call it the itty, bitty, shitty committee. When I was losing my company back in 0 6, I was really good at being the victim to all things, and the bank was the evil doer, and my clients were the evildoers, and I was really good at building my list of enemies.
(22:18):
but I had no power in that.
The reality is, I pick the clients. I pick the bank, and I pick the employees. So who's really responsible for this? It's me
now that's not something I came to quickly, so I don't want to portray like. Oh, I just woke up one day and I decided to know it took a while. And we also, you know, we get reinforcement through childhood. Neural pathways get grooved into our brain of these things, and from the messages from parents and schools and social media. And what have you?
(22:46):
The reality is.
anything can happen for you, not to you. So let me let me step back for a second just because I say something, does it? Something happened for me doesn't mean it's not painful.
I mean. Danny literally told me he wept when he realized his what runway was sure he was. Physically he was. I was curled up on a ball, and I was in pain, sobbing.
(23:08):
That's real.
The the technique doesn't eliminate that paint.
I remember I said to him one time I was I was in a previous marriage, and I'm like
I just don't want to hurt. So I don't think I should try very hard. He's like you're going to hurt anyways.
if you don't leave it all on the field, how are you going to feel? You talk to me in sports analogies a lot.
(23:32):
I said. Well, I'm going to feel like I didn't give it my very best. He's like you will feel better if you remind yourself you gave it your very best, even if it doesn't work out, because what you won't live with is the pain of regret. You can. You can have the pain of loss, of the relationship that makes sense. But you don't want to double that with the pain of regret, sitting on top of that, blew my mind. So when that relationship ended I was able to be good with me and clean with her around. I know I did my very best.
(24:03):
so I just. But people think it's going to remove the pain. It's not going to. It doesn't work that way.
Govindh Jayaraman (24:10):
No. And so the pain's going to come anyway.
And this is what I this is what I
was trying to get at before when I asked you.
everything in life happens for me and not to me. Does it mean, does does it have to be good? And the answer is, no.
it doesn't mean that it's good or bad, or it doesn't mean that it means anything. It's just an opportunity.
Todd Palmer (24:31):
That's it.
Govindh Jayaraman (24:32):
To make a choice. So when we say that we want to control things.
isn't it a choice to decide that we can, we can try to control an outcome.
or we can try to control an action.
And the only there's only one thing that we actually have control over the action. We take right.
Todd Palmer (24:53):
So I see what you're saying. There is the
before the action, at least for me. I'm not saying you're wrong before I take an action. I have to get into a position of awareness that I have a power to make a different choice which creates a different action.
Govindh Jayaraman (25:10):
What what I mean is, yes, there's a process to get there.
Todd Palmer (25:14):
Yes.
Govindh Jayaraman (25:15):
Right, however, absolutely you cannot control an outcome.
Outcomes are beyond.
Todd Palmer (25:23):
Only control your reaction to it.
Govindh Jayaraman (25:24):
Exactly.
Todd Palmer (25:25):
That is true in my experience. That is true.
Govindh Jayaraman (25:27):
So so we're talking about this from a leadership perspective. And we're talking about how we feel
right, how we feel about it, how these things are happening to us, and and or sorry not to us, but for us, and understanding how to shift.
noticing that, moving to intention, from expectation, creating a plan.
(25:52):
getting some feedback and then going through that loop again.
How do we support our teams to do this? Because I think, as leaders, we have to do this for ourselves. We have to
shift the perspective for ourselves, but
we also need to lead our teams through that.
How do we do that?
Todd Palmer (26:13):
I think you lead from the front.
Govindh Jayaraman (26:15):
Okay.
Todd Palmer (26:15):
I used to talk to my team extensively about
how things were happening for us, not to us as a company.
you know, as a recruiting firm.
My, my old business was a company named diversified industrial staffing, and we are nothing. We were nothing more than matchmakers. We were the, you know match.com of the staffing world. I took a candidate, matched it with a client, and then we got paid. Money fell to the bottom.
(26:44):
There's so much in that process of trying to get somebody who's maybe looking for a job to work for a company who might want to hire them.
We are so much beyond our control. We couldn't. So what could we? That's a result. We would
getting paid. It was a result. Kpi. We made, we booked revenue.
What? What we doubled down as what activity Kpis, can we control?
(27:09):
We're in the middle of the recession here in Detroit in 0 8 0 9.
Nobody's hiding. Unemployment went from 4% to 14%. The one category as a business you don't need is a recruiter. There's plenty of bodies on the street.
Well, that was the business I was in, and we had enough business thankfully, because we had diversified just enough to keep our head above water. So I had a very skeleton staff.
(27:31):
and so, instead of measuring just the revenue or the placements or the billed hours.
we started measuring what were the daily activities everybody did at their desk.
because that's what we could control. So we used to literally have a failure of the day campaign. How many? No's can you get not? How many yeses can you get?
And we would sit there, and I would sit with the team in the bullpen, and I would lead by example, so I would call up and say.
(27:55):
Hey, I know you're not hiring but what
you know, but when you do hire, what are you going to hire, for
you know that it took us about 2 weeks to figure out that language because we just had to slog through it.
So Jeremy's talking and Lisa's talking, and I'm talking.
and we would meet like at lunch, and we meet at the end of the day just to kind of like
commiserate, because nobody was buying.
(28:18):
and we started hearing the same pattern over and over again that when we get out of this economic situation and we will, we're going to be hiring for this type of candidate. It was called the Mazak Masatrol.
Cnc programmer. A very specialized skill set. So I thought, Okay, that's what the marketplace is going to be looking for in 6 to 12 months. Great.
On the other side of my business. I had Carrie and Becky and other people who were my candidate people, I said, All right, the market's going to be looking for this person. Go build an inventory.
(28:47):
go build an inventory. Then I thought, Okay.
how is this happening for me? Not to me. Okay, I've got an inventory. I'm gonna start marketing it back to the potential buyer. So we become top of mind, and 1st in line, when they need that person. All of a sudden the phone starts ringing.
Oh, my, gosh, your guy's exactly what we're going to be looking for. I got approval from ownership to make a hire during a hiring freeze, because these people are impossible to find.
(29:11):
I have no idea if the client was ever looking for them, but we were looking for them, and we were stockpiling them. The inventory that was huge in turning this business around because I had the inventory, I was able to to grab a hold of the supply chain. I got the inventory that you're going to need one day, and we just marketed it back
versus, well, there's no jobs. Okay? Well, we'll just sit around and wait for the phone to ring.
Govindh Jayaraman (29:33):
And that speaks back to your point earlier on to giving up the need to be right
and replacing it with a deep curiosity for what's really happening.
and asking the questions and holding space for the answer and being, if you're genuinely curious about what's going on for somebody.
they'll tell you if you're Gen. If you're curious because you want to sell them, they know.
Todd Palmer (29:57):
Right.
Govindh Jayaraman (29:58):
Right. But if you're curious because you're curious, and you're asking great questions.
give up the need to be right
and and adopt a more curious mindset. You're going to get some real information right?
Todd Palmer (30:12):
It's
people, I think, by and large people want to tell you the truth, but they don't want to be sold. And
you know it's
so many people. I certainly would put myself in this category for many, many years I would die on the hill of being right versus being happy.
(30:33):
The reality is Jahari window 101.
There's that 4th quartile in the Jahari window where there's a part of you that I don't know. There's also a part of you. You don't know. So if I believe that actually for me, what I did is
I just believe that quartile was the crux of everything.
It's the crux of everything. So there's always a part of me. I'm not going to know there's always a part of me. You're not going to know what by ipso facto.
(30:57):
I can't know everything.
because I have a hidden part to me, and I am me, and I have a hidden part to you now you could have a part of me that shows up that I'm aware that you can put some spotlight on. But if I if I embrace that
that removes the pressure to always be right.
Your move is the pressure for me to defend myself and to invalidate you when you call me out on something. So it actually gives me more satisfying life because I don't have to be right all the time, because in the reality is, there's always a part of the circumstance. There's always a part of the dynamic between me and another person that I don't know about.
Govindh Jayaraman (31:34):
And this goes back to your point. That Dr. Danny Friedland gave you about chasing happiness is impossible.
and replacing it with satisfaction.
Satisfactions were, the, you know, a worthy goal.
Todd Palmer (31:49):
It's the hero's journey. Every journey is a journey of satisfaction, and when you get enough money you get enough toys, you get enough things, and you still feel empty. Like most people I run into, it's like, well, so
what's really the issue? Well, the issue typically at least in my experience is we're trying to get fill in an internal emptiness with an external feed. And that external feed will typically go through us like a sieve and end up behind us because it doesn't collect, because the emptiness is so so vast.
Govindh Jayaraman (32:20):
Right.
So when we go back to this, everything in life happens for me and not to me.
And we talk about bringing our team through that process and modeling it.
You also said that you did something physical today to change your state.
Right?
(32:40):
You know you you were wearing well, like me. You were wearing black clothing
and you shifted it into the salmon clothing.
Does that play a role like changing your state? Does that play a role into this.
Todd Palmer (32:54):
For me. It does. It's it's
it's the power of the uniform, you know. If if you're going to go out.
I said this to my son the other day he was like, Yeah, I came home, and I was really in a crappy mood. I said, did you change your shirt? He's like, why would I do that? I said, because you're in your work uniform
when you come home. Put on your husband uniform, he's like, Oh.
so yeah, it's literally it's that physical experience of removing one garment and putting another garment on. When I go play baseball, I put on a baseball uniform. I don't play baseball in a suit.
(33:24):
you know. It's the body we we have roles.
you know, when we go to, you know, back in the day when my staff would come to work. Everybody had to wear a collared shirt.
Except for Fridays, Fridays, you get to wear a T-shirt. It's like this is how you show up.
People go to in Detroit. They go to manufacturing plants, and they wear overalls with their name sewn on it. That's their work uniform. They don't wear that on the weekends when they're playing softball or bowling that this is their uniform? No, what they do is they wear a softball uniform, or when they go to church they wear a suit and tie, or whatever they do, we as creatures. When we change our physical garb, it reminds our brains that we're not at work, or we're not at church. We're at softball.
Govindh Jayaraman (34:07):
Yeah, it's really important. And and today, in a time when more and more people are working
remote working in hybrid environments, isn't that even more important right to change.
You're unified.
Todd Palmer (34:20):
I make myself every day. I literally work from home 99% of the time I come home, or I come down in my office, and I wear something with, you know, something professional, you know, for the environment. I'll wear a collared shirt or whatever.
and it just sets my mindset for the day that I'm in work. Mode
also sends a message to my family like, Hey, I'm in work mode. So no, I'm not going to take out the garbage right now. I'm in work mode. I'll take out the garbage tonight, or, Hey, no, I can't go do this or this right now, because I'm in work mode.
(34:49):
I have to announce to them like, Hey, I'm on a 3 h break if you need anything, I'm available to you, and yes, I'm in my work close, but I'll still do it.
Govindh Jayaraman (34:55):
Right.
So what?
What do you notice? Let's start with you. What? What did you notice shifted when you followed Danny Friedland's
pathway right around things happening. For for you versus to you.
Todd Palmer (35:18):
My relationship with the world got a whole lot calmer.
calm relationship. I can be very intense, and I can be very impatient.
I used to have this phrase when I ran diversified. It's like, you know, and he'd done today.
yesterday would have been better, and tomorrow is too late. So it transferred a lot of stress and pressure to my team.
Govindh Jayaraman (35:42):
And it was the immediacy, the immediacy, the race against the clock.
Todd Palmer (35:46):
In the recruiting world. We always would say that we're always against the race, against the clock, because the candidates only on the market for so long. The company's only gonna have an opening for so long. And it's our job to match that sense of have a sense of urgency that exceeds their timelines, so that we're ahead of the pack versus being laissez-faire. Well, that's I guess, okay in the work world. But I would bring that to my home.
(36:08):
and it was bigger, faster, more now. Well, that's intense, and that's not sustainable. It's like fuel. Danny used to talk about fuel. What
it happens for me not to me. It is a clean, burning gasoline to get me from Los Angeles to New York.
The way I was operating was on nitrous. A funny car fuel that would get me from downtown Los Angeles out to Compton, and no further. It was intense and it was awesome. Then it burns out, and so I felt for me. At 1 point in my career I was going to burn out, and that wasn't sustainable for my life. I knew it was going to take a toll on my physical part, my mental part in my relationships, and that wasn't acceptable to me.
Govindh Jayaraman (36:46):
Yeah. And the other problem with nitrous is, you can blow out the engine. And that's even. That's a bigger problem.
Todd Palmer (36:51):
Exactly, and.
Govindh Jayaraman (36:53):
So.
that's interesting. So when you, when you share this with clients, right when you share this in your work, and I know it's a big part of how you work.
It's it's
a version of this, I think, is woven into our conversations that we've had so far. So I know it's a big part of you, and I know Danny Friedland's a big part of you.
(37:16):
So what do you see? Shift for other people when they do this?
Todd Palmer (37:22):
Wow!
1st thing that comes to mind with clients is they?
It's an unburdening to the shackles of the past, thinking they've never considered.
Oh, wow! So losing a client can happen for me not to me.
(37:42):
Having a fight with my spouse can happen for me, not to me.
I can
use the active learning cycle, and I can reappraise this, and I can approach it differently. I can
do a mantra to stop.
you know. I think, think so. Many high performers in my experience are somewhere in their lives, whether childhood or adulthood, they.
(38:05):
they've learned that the harder they are on themselves.
sometimes the least kind they are to themselves, and others will allow them to perform better.
Govindh Jayaraman (38:14):
Hmm.
Todd Palmer (38:15):
And they will die or die trying. And
as I found, as I've gotten older, I just don't have the energy for that anymore. I have a client who's under the age of 30, and I just taught her the this is happening for me, not to me.
In the look of relief on her face was measurable. She looked, you know, 5 years younger, I'm like, how did that land with you? I just get curious. She's like
(38:40):
told a story. Well, you know my dad told me this, and this is how you behave as an entrepreneur. These are what you do like, Whoa! That's a way to do it. It's a way to do it.
You've been doing that since you started your business. How is that working for you? She says it's not.
It doesn't work. And it's
impacting relationships with with my family, my fiance. But it's also impacting my relationship. And how I see myself.
(39:07):
I don't like it when I show up that way.
That's important to pay attention to.
Govindh Jayaraman (39:12):
Bye, I love this unburdening, and I love that lightning that you're and isn't it? Isn't it true
that when we embrace this kind of a philosophy.
We also embrace the fact that you know
the future isn't laid out in front of us. It's not done yet.
Todd Palmer (39:32):
No.
Govindh Jayaraman (39:33):
And and this one decision doesn't mean 40 more. Just means one.
Todd Palmer (39:40):
You and I have done this a long time. You help a business, lay out a five-year plan.
lay out a three-year plan. You lay out a 1-year plan.
I have clients that laid out a 1 year Plan that by January, because of changes they could not control with tariffs and other government choices here in the Us. Those plans are literally
completely null and void.
Govindh Jayaraman (40:00):
Hmm.
Todd Palmer (40:02):
It's it's not. And they beat themselves up in their itty, bitty, shitty committee says I should have seen that coming. I had clients during, Covid said, I should have seen Covid coming.
Really.
tell me why you feel that way, because they have such a such an ownership and a feeling of needing to feel power, needing to feel in control that they should be Nostradamus and be able to predict the future like that. And then we sometimes, as coach say. Well, you must have a 10 year, a 5 year, 3 year, a 1 year plan set the vision for the company. So you know the roadmap you're going to take.
(40:30):
Well.
I had a roadmap for my honeymoon, and we were leaving Detroit at 10 Am. We left at 4 Pm. And a roadmap. We had to pivot because things beyond my control
change that we, as leaders going back to how do we lead our people
if we handle the blows from government society business family. We show up and we model like, okay, that was the plan. Now we have a different plan. You know. See, I saw a hundred years ago I saw Colin Powell speak, and he talked. It was in an entrepreneurship event, and he talked about how
(41:03):
we act as entrepreneurs, and he was so funny because you all act like you're making life and death decisions.
He goes. I actually make them
fair point, General fair Point. He goes. You all make like, you need 100% of the information to make a decision. He goes. I make life and death decisions sometimes with less than 20% of the information.
So I have to rapidly iterate. Because if I get a new data point and I'm going to send troops over to the right, and they're going to get wiped out by the enemy. I
(41:30):
well, that was the plan, and we're going to stick to the plan. No, I pivot them to the left, so that I'm not writing letters to mothers who've lost their sons because you need to learn to rapidly iterate.
Govindh Jayaraman (41:41):
Right, and I think that's that's so valuable. The
the thing that's really I love this unburdening. I love how
you know, even in in your telling of Danny Friedland story, how he unburdened himself
in one way, shape or form. But unburdening doesn't mean the pain goes away. It just means that you can
(42:07):
make a choice, make a decision that might give you some momentum in a different direction. Right? It gives you an opportunity. It gives you the opportunity to see the opportunity that exists amidst the chaos.
Todd Palmer (42:22):
It's
I have a client who recently went through the situation of having to decide to terminate half their staff.
It was painful. These are long-term relationships.
The reality is.
they could not afford to keep the entire staff. There wasn't enough business coming in the door, and there there was. No, there was no forecasting, their landscape had changed.
(42:48):
and I would say, How is this happening for you? Not to you?
And there was a lot of resistance finally came. I was like, well, you know, I've taken a look at the circumstances. I'm able. I contacted an AI specialist, and I've been able to outsource basically 8 jobs to AI and save myself a couple 1 million dollars in payroll.
(43:09):
And I go. Well, those people will find jobs. Then we tell ourselves the story that people will not be able to find jobs talked about it in my book. I fired my entire company in one day back in 2,006, and started over all those people found jobs.
Did they like me? Probably not.
That's okay.
I don't begrudge them. It's okay.
(43:30):
The reality is, I was a single parent.
The bank was threatening to take my house, and I needed to survive.
and sometimes we have to make different decisions fast forward. Now, because of all that ick in 2,006 to 2,010 that i 1 put upon myself, 2 worked my way through. Now I get the blessing of coaching a lot of different people from an experiential standpoint during chaos and crisis of current times.
Govindh Jayaraman (43:54):
Right. And you know, by the way.
there's chaos and crisis right now.
Todd Palmer (43:59):
There's totally chaos and crisis right now.
Govindh Jayaraman (44:01):
And if we really look back at it, though.
there's always some version of chaos and crisis.
Todd Palmer (44:08):
Oh, for sure!
Govindh Jayaraman (44:09):
Right. So
I think I think there's so much there I want. I want to end in a slightly different way today than we've we've done before, but but
but certainly we've we've done this, too, as you know. John Ruland passed away 6 months ago.
and when he passed away we started the tradition of ending every podcast with his
(44:37):
inspired theme of what you appreciate, appreciates, and putting some gratitude into the world to perpetuate his legacy.
Where would you like to share some gratitude? Who would you like to appreciate today.
Todd Palmer (44:51):
Oh, gosh!
Love that
I just!
I'm so lucky and blessed!
I have such an appreciation and gratefulness to
my wife Jennifer, our daughter Etta, my son Tyler, for
(45:14):
the guilt-free freedom they give me to go out and live my best life in serving my clients and traveling and going out into the world.
and the the sense of
acceptance versus I hear this from a lot of people who travel a lot. It's like, Oh, you're gone again you're gone again. That shame and guilt gets woven into those relationships.
(45:38):
they realized, and they've supported me. When I'm living my best life. It allows me to be the best husband and father for them, and that's ultimately those are the memories I'm going to leave this earth with.
and I'm certainly I mean I could go on for gratitude and appreciation for hours. In fact, I'm still on. I'm still on my Eo Forum, and we
every month we have a 5 min section of gratitudes and appreciations to express. So I'm all in with the John Ruland process.
Govindh Jayaraman (46:04):
Fantastic thanks, Todd, I know I'll see you again.
Todd Palmer (46:07):
Yeah, I hope so.
Govindh Jayaraman (46:09):
All right.
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