Michael Walsh returns for Part 9 in the Freedom by Design series to continue building out a powerful framework for leaders seeking lasting impact — not just in their businesses, but through them. In this edition, we dive deep into the core of high-performance organizations: people development as the engine of profit and customer value.
Michael Walsh, founder of Walsh Business Growth, has spent decades helping businesses scale by designing leadership and operational systems that put people first — and deliver exponential results. This napkin brings that philosophy home by answering one of the most challenging leadership questions: How do you find time to train and grow your people when there’s already so much to do?
As Govindh says early in the episode, “We have to deliver for our clients. We’ve got to deliver profit. We’ve got to manage everything... and now we’re also supposed to grow our people professionally and personally?”
Michael’s answer isn’t just tactical — it’s transformational.
“When you start thinking of training and growth not as something separate but as the pathway to results, everything shifts. Growth stops being a nice-to-have and becomes essential.”
At the center of this napkin is a key insight: integrated results happen when you align your team’s development with your profit and customer value goals. The visual shows a straight line from “Team” to “Results,” surrounded by arrows pointing toward “Your Profit” and “Customer Value.” Below this, the infrastructure of success is laid out: Job Role → Professional Growth → Growth Plan.
Walsh emphasizes that people don’t grow in a vacuum. They need context. They need clarity on their role, a path for development, and a structured plan that connects their growth to organizational success.
“You have to build the architecture for growth into the day-to-day. It can’t be a retreat once a year. It’s got to be in the job.”
That’s why this napkin isn’t just about training — it’s about engineering your business so that training is the business. When you empower every team member to grow inside their role and align that growth with your strategic goals, you unlock compound impact.
This napkin is part two of a concept that’s been growing steadily through the series: freedom is found not by stepping away from your people, but by investing in them. And as Michael says, “We’re not talking about adding more to your plate — we’re talking about building a better table.”
5 Key Takeaways from Michael Walsh – Episode 265
1. Training isn’t extra — it’s essential. If you want consistent results, you must systematize training and development into daily work. → Take Action: Audit your team’s current growth rhythms. Where is training optional instead of operational?
2. Align team growth with customer value. Your customer experience improves when your team evolves in sync with what the customer needs. → Take Action: Ask, “How does each team member’s role directly impact customer value?”
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Govindh Jayaraman (00:02):
Michael Walsh. Welcome back to paper napkin! Wisdom excited to continue this journey.
Michael Walsh (00:07):
Well, thanks for having me back.
Govindh Jayaraman (00:09):
Right. So we are discovering. Well, we are discussing and discovering. I'm discovering. You're discussing
the the freedom framework. And this is for leaders to understand and how, not just how, but why we want to build and stay focused on freedom in the business, to do the things we want to do freedom from the business, so we can go away and do the things outside of the business that we want to do, but also freedom because of the business to have
(00:38):
the life and maybe opportunities that come because of the business, you know, because of the wealth that is generated within the business, and because of the profitability of the business and all those kinds of things. So
in doing that we've talked about danger zones, and there are 4 big danger zones as a company grows. And then we've talked about people being the opportunity, but also the problem. And how do we solve that? How do we solve for that. And here's the thing that's sort of
(01:10):
coming to me as we do this.
as we're growing the business. We've got all this stuff that we got to do. We got to deliver for our clients. We gotta deliver profit. We've got to manage all of the factors that are there.
but you've said that we have to rethink the core.
and, rethinking the core, puts this extra pressure now on us to
grow our people professionally and personally, also on top of the profit. And on top of this other stuff. So where's all the time? Come for all of this stuff.
(01:42):
Michael.
Michael Walsh (01:44):
Oh, sure! Start with an easy question.
Govindh Jayaraman (01:47):
Yeah.
Michael Walsh (01:48):
I love what you said. You know people are. The people are, you know, a great resource, but they're also the problem. You know. I I it reminds me of Ford's quote way back, when in the early 19 hundreds, he says, You know, why can't we? Just people's hands show up? But the whole body shows up with it. It's like
so complicated with every you know. It's like their hopes, their dreams, their concerns, and all that stuff. He says we we end up with all of it, you know. But you're right. It's like, where do you get the time? Well.
(02:13):
as you know, the complexity of a company
multiplies as you increase the number of staff.
and it does exactly that. It chews up your time like you just don't have any time. So so
if you're going to train your people, and in fact, that's 1 of the biggest reasons why people don't spend as much time training as they theoretically know that they should.
(02:38):
they figure well, you know, the industry's got things, especially when you're in an expertise driven industry. They've got industry training, you know they've got continuing education, things they have to do. Shouldn't that be enough? That sort of thing, because then I don't have to do it as as you know, the owner. But if I'm going to build an intelligent ecosystem, it runs very differently from a well oiled machine. Well, a machine. I tell you what to do. You do what you're told, and then you do that. Well, of course.
(03:03):
notwithstanding that it kills creativity, if you that's even if you did follow what I said, but if you resent that, I was telling you that, then it takes it in a whole different direction, and so that just compounds the the difficulty, and how time consuming it is
so the question is that if I understand it correctly, how's that? For a long preamble to a simple question.
(03:26):
how?
How can I actually manage this? Given the time constraints of what it takes to grow a company, create value for my customers, protect my own profit stuff like that like, how do we do this?
Govindh Jayaraman (03:37):
Yeah. And and there's still, you know, only a certain amount of time in the day.
Michael Walsh (03:43):
Correct. And so, yeah, so we're talking about increasing your freedom.
What would happen if you started to integrate everything?
Integrated solutions work better than not.
Govindh Jayaraman (03:53):
So so let's talk about the alternative to integration, so that people can understand what integration is right.
Michael Walsh (03:57):
Sure.
Govindh Jayaraman (03:57):
Because that's not a term that everybody understands the same way. What does integration mean?
Michael Walsh (04:02):
Okay, so.
Govindh Jayaraman (04:03):
Or what is, what is, what is the opposite of integration.
Michael Walsh (04:05):
The opposite integration is, I spend some of my time doing this, and I spend some of my. So I spend some of my time creating value for my customers. I spend some of my time creating profit for my company, and then I got to spend this time over here, creating creating opportunities for my people to grow, and I'm literally running around all over the place because there's too much to do on me or my team to go around.
Govindh Jayaraman (04:25):
That's the distributed.
That's distributed results. That's where you're distributing your time. 1 h here, 1 h there, 1 h there, 1 h there. It adds up to 28 h. Some of it doesn't get done, and we're we're lost.
Michael Walsh (04:40):
And then Tuesday comes in. Now I get to start again. Well, hang on a sec. I did 28 h for Monday. I'm already into Tuesday, and sleep is be a nice thing. So, and and this is part of the reason why people initially have a difficult time with this notion of rethinking the core. Because what we're saying is your ability to generate results has always been the core. And by adding the teams as part of the core.
(05:03):
Then we've got customer value your profit. But we've also got this thing called professional growth. And that's why the professional growth is needed. So the question is, how do I design this so that it so that it you know it all works well.
Remember the conversation we had about the Social Contract.
Govindh Jayaraman (05:19):
Yes.
Michael Walsh (05:20):
That was a few episodes ago. I don't even know how many episodes ago, but it was a couple of episodes ago, and so in the Social Contract as the as the employer. There's things you want, you know, you need them to do their individual results. You need them to actually perform collective results for projects or initiatives that are larger than any one person can do. You want to? Actually, you want a stronger corporate culture as a result of people working together. And ultimately you want the
(05:46):
You want progress towards your pro, your purpose as a firm, or your mission, or whatever you want to call it. What the employee wants is they want to get paid
clearly. Number 2. They want professional training and growth, especially in an expertise driven environment. And then they also want to have access to meaningful work and meaningful relationships. Those are the other 2 things that they want. But the key on this one is the number 2 on both sides, so.
Govindh Jayaraman (06:10):
And and actually number one on both sides is highly aligned.
Generate results. For the owner company is profit.
value? Right? That that's that's what it means.
Employees want profit themselves right, they want compensation so very aligned there, and very aligned in number 2.
Michael Walsh (06:30):
Well, and number 2 is an equivalent to profit, because if I get professional growth, that means my career grows. I could get more profit, or I could get. You know I'm worth more in the marketplace, either with this company or beyond it, when you know if, as and when I move on as far as that's concerned. So the key to an effective ecosystem is number 2 on both of those, and that means professional growth and development.
(06:51):
which sounds like I'm beating around the bush around your time question.
Govindh Jayaraman (06:55):
Yes.
Michael Walsh (06:56):
And I probably am so.
Govindh Jayaraman (06:58):
Probably a little bit.
Michael Walsh (06:58):
You should vote that here we go. So again, non integrated, would be distributed results. I have to take part of my time for this and part of my time for that integrated is, if I can put them together and have the same event, doing one also doing the other.
So the way.
Govindh Jayaraman (07:13):
This is where it comes, where you keep on talking about rethinking the core.
Michael Walsh (07:17):
Correct.
And so the way to do that is through 2 specific tools. And today I want to talk about them. And in our next series. I want to go into detail on how to do it. The 1st part is okay. Everybody has a job.
So their job role. Okay, the way we usually set up somebody with their job role is it's based in accountabilities. It's based in results that they're designed to generate and remember, our job is to support them in generating results. We talked about that last time. And so, and the results are the technical results, the financial results, the human results and the sustainability of those results. So so we're actually working with them to generate results. Well, their job role has got to be focused
(07:58):
on the results that you want to generate. And so so I have 2 things in the job role. The 1st thing is, what's the purpose of the role.
And the second part is, what are the 3 to 5 areas of accountability?
And so, for example, any job can be broken down into the areas of accountability I can draw. I can even take a president, you know, President Slash owner's job and break his or her role down into the areas of accountability and keep it within. In fact, in in the President's job would be 5 number one is, they're accountable for the strategy development
(08:36):
number 2. They're accountable to ensure that we're attracting enough business or securing enough business to keep to keep ourselves meeting our goals. So that'd be your your marketing business development and sales. The 3rd area is to ensure that we're keeping the promises we make to our customers. In other words, your production delivery of services.
Okay? Because we're talking about service based companies here, although it's just as true for product based companies. Number 4 is ensure that I'm appropriately staffed
(09:05):
with people that can actually accomplish both the sales and the and the and the production elements to to deliver on our mandates and Number 5 is to handle the money. And that's product, the profitability, cash flow and capital are the 3 elements of that. So really, if I take a look, I got strategy, I got sales and marketing. I got production delivery. I got people and the money. Those are the areas of accountability. Now, what the outcomes are the specific results. That's a whole different conversation.
(09:32):
Each of those 5 areas. I could actually then, by identifying that, I could actually then turn around, say, what are the results in each of those 5 areas? And again with any job. I see there's at least 3, and you can always max it at 5. Now the reason to go 3 to 5 is
because it keeps it strategic. And and really, we're using a term called chunking.
(09:53):
Okay? And when we do chunking.
it's taking the big chunks. And then I might have 20 or 30 different to do's. I might even have 10 to do's in each of those 5 areas. Okay. But at the end of the day. The result is in that area.
So so the 1st job is to identify the job role. And you figure out, what is the what's the purpose of the role. What are the actual job chunks of that role?
(10:15):
Okay.
Govindh Jayaraman (10:17):
So what we're doing is we're taking the the bigger purpose and chunking it down into the role and then chunking that role further down into the areas of accountability.
Michael Walsh (10:30):
Right in order to to complete that role. Well, let's sustainable.
Let's say I work for you. So let me ask you a question.
Which are you? Gonna give me? Be gentle. Okay, some things. I'm not very good at something. Pretend I'm good at something and just pick a job, and we'll see we get.
Govindh Jayaraman (10:47):
Sure. Let's let's let's say operations. CEO.
Michael Walsh (10:52):
Co. Coo. Okay? So so so it could be ensure that we've got the appropriate
processes in place to support the delivery of our of our services
ensure that our people are equipped with the appropriate equipment
(11:17):
to to maximize the customer value in a way that's cost effective, and and really makes it easy for them to give their best. A 3rd one might be
I don't know. I was gonna go to keeping up with the trends so that we can continue to make sure that we're that we're, you know. We're on top of that thing, or I could go to the 3rd one would be to collaborate with the with the with the managers, to ensure that they've got the appropriate, that they've got the processes in place
(11:50):
to support the people, to hire each of the managers to hire the appropriate staff, and of course you're going to use an Hr. Department to support those managers as well. Ultimately you want the accountability for the staff to rest with the managers in in the various departments, let's say, in an operations driven environment. I'm thinking, let's say, an engineering firm. I've got different people at different levels. And because I'm trying to keep this to service based. And so so I might actually set it up. So each of the project
(12:15):
managers has what they need. So those are 3, and the 4th one might be to participate as part of the larger management team or the larger larger leadership team. And there's probably a 5th one of something I forgot.
So.
Govindh Jayaraman (12:28):
Sure.
Michael Walsh (12:29):
You know, but those the 4 really cover most of it is make sure that we've got the, you know the processes to support them, to to deliver their best in terms of the client results. Make sure that they've got the equipment and and tools and computer whatever necessary to do that ensure that the managers are armed with, or you know, you've got the systems that would support the the attraction and developing of people, and then participate as part of the top. The higher leadership team.
(12:58):
that probably covers 90% of a coo's job.
Govindh Jayaraman (13:01):
Right?
Right? So it's even in covers it pretty easily, and.
Michael Walsh (13:07):
To you know.
Govindh Jayaraman (13:09):
So what's
so once we've got the role and we've got the results that are related to it and the 3 to 5 areas accountability. And I love that you're calling it areas of accountability. Because you're you're redefining around the chunks of areas of accountability.
Michael Walsh (13:23):
Yeah.
Govindh Jayaraman (13:24):
Then? What.
Michael Walsh (13:25):
So the other half of that. So that's what the company wants. What do the people want? They want to grow
so career development growth plans.
So I've got to have a. The key is if I can align. So let's say we want to grow our coo.
Okay. So if I want to grow my coo. I'm in a situation where?
(13:48):
Okay, how big is our company now, today.
Govindh Jayaraman (13:51):
Let's say, 30 people.
Michael Walsh (13:53):
30 people. So 30 people might.
Govindh Jayaraman (13:56):
People, we shouldn't have a coo. Let's say, 75 people, let's say, 75 people, because 30 people we really shouldn't have a coo.
Michael Walsh (14:02):
Either that or your title happy, and that's.
Govindh Jayaraman (14:04):
Yeah, which is, that's another issue.
Michael Walsh (14:06):
But anyways, the but you're right. It's 75 people. Okay. So so 75 people, let's say, 9 million dollars.
Govindh Jayaraman (14:16):
Yeah.
Michael Walsh (14:17):
So I got a company. That's 9 million dollars. Okay? And and so when you look at my growth plan as a coo, what I would like to be is a C-level executive, whether it's a Coo or a CEO.
Let's say I may. Wanna I may wanna grow as far as that's concerned.
I may want to have something much larger, and I want to grow my capabilities as far as that's concerned. I've already got that for a 75 person firm. The question is, what are the skills that I'd need? And and you know, how do I actually grow beyond my current role? So the purpose of a growth plan is to give you access to to growing beyond your current role. So if I can actually design the growth plan
(14:58):
in such a way so that it actually can overlay with the actual job role itself.
Then I've got an integrated result.
Govindh Jayaraman (15:10):
You know, I'm actually seeing another layer of integration here, Michael, and I think this is sort of brilliant.
you know, if if our job is to support again, going back to
train and grow your people part one which was the dimensions of results. Not just results right? But there are 4 dimensions of results, technical, financial, human, and sustainable. And then, if we understand that in the context of
(15:38):
you know, making this part of the role that career development growth plan is part of that.
What do people put on their Cvs, they don't put all the skills. I mean, they do put all the skills. But people get really intrigued about the results
that they get. So the results need to be aligned. And this is where this is gets really really cool. If the results are aligned with growth in the direction of where people want to be.
(16:03):
then that's exactly where they want to be. I mean, that's exactly what they want. That's that's the step 2
in the Social Contract.
Michael Walsh (16:12):
Well, absolutely. And and in fact, if if we put that on and let's say you had me here for I don't know. Let's call 5 years.
Okay? So 1st of all.
you clearly had patience. If you had me working with you, just leave it at that. But you know I might say that that you know, on my resume, instead of saying, Well, I developed this skill or that skill. What I could say is that I supported paper napkin. Wisdom Inc.
(16:40):
To to, you know, grow from 75 people in 9 million to 250 people. And
you know, 40 million.
And it's like 250 people, 40 million. Wow! The profitability is up. Well, yeah, he he taught me well, and I learned. But but the thing that you know, if if that can be done based on actually integrating these results. So the same event that actually has somebody grow have that same event be fed by the actual job role itself.
(17:12):
Now.
Govindh Jayaraman (17:13):
This is why you say it's rethinking, because that's not that hard to conceive of.
If you're thinking about it differently.
Michael Walsh (17:21):
Well, yeah, if you take a long term perspective just by integrating those 2 things, then we're all set. Now, I'm you know, we were talking about putting the actual growth plan itself into the next one. I'm almost inclined to do it now.
Govindh Jayaraman (17:31):
Sure it's up to you.
Yeah, keep going.
Michael Walsh (17:34):
You want to go there.
Govindh Jayaraman (17:35):
Sure.
Michael Walsh (17:36):
Okay, so so,
Govindh Jayaraman (17:39):
Actually, why don't? Why don't we do this before we do that? I do want to talk about how? Okay? So if the team are part of the core.
Michael Walsh (17:47):
Yes.
Govindh Jayaraman (17:48):
And the team is responsible within the core for delivering results and their professional growth plan.
And that's just a rethinking of the role and rethinking of the structure.
And we said that there are really 2 parts of it right there. There's the job role itself, and and the 3 to 5 accountabilities. And there's the growth plan. That's part of it.
Michael Walsh (18:10):
For every single. And it's the individual teams of knowledge workers. Some of them may be geared on customer value. Other teams may be geared on protecting profits like your finance team. Other teams may be actually be there for professional growth to support that.
Govindh Jayaraman (18:24):
Okay. So I want to go back to the 1st point that I said, because I think that somewhere, listening to this right now, there's an entrepreneur.
Or CEO, who's listening to this going? I am going 80 HA day.
Michael Walsh (18:40):
Yep.
Govindh Jayaraman (18:41):
They're not going any energy, but they're feeling like they're overwhelmed
and they're overwhelmed trying to deliver customer value. They understand very quickly and very easily this idea of. Okay. Look, I understand that I'm responsible for and accountable for strategic development. That's a chunk for me. I am out there ensuring my businesses grow by attracting enough
(19:05):
qualified possible clients to me all the time I am running around
24, 7, ensuring that we're keeping the promises that we're making to our clients, and I am
man staffing such a challenge today. Getting the right people is unbelievably, incredibly difficult. I spent a lot of time there and then, man, if I do some of that stuff right, I've got enough.
(19:32):
You know I'm growing my company on the top and bottom line, and I'm doing it while supporting cash flow. So that's another shell game that I'm trying to keep up on top of. Now
I have to add this professional growth. Where am I going to do this in the time this is? This sounds like it's overwhelming. So what would you say again? Let's take a step back. When do I do this? In my schedule?
Michael Walsh (19:58):
Don't you already integrate customer value in your profit?
I'd sell you something at a price that leaves me a profit, I think, through the game in advance, and then I sell you something that the same event gives me profit. So you don't have to do 2 events. Well, one called. Give a customer the value, and then the other one is to actually work on on the prop. So even as I'm hiring people, if I know I can afford an $80,000 person.
(20:24):
I'm not gonna hire $120,000 person because their skills. I'm gonna continue to look to get the $80,000 person, because I know that that I've got to be able to generate the customer value while concurrently getting the profit.
So all I'm saying is the same forward thinking allows us to not only get customer value and my profit, but I also do it in a way that the people that are now part of my core, because the truth is, they're the ones that deliver it. I don't deliver it. They deliver it collectively, so I'm doing it in such a way. So I get the customer value my profit, but we also get their growth in the same event.
(20:56):
So it takes thinking in advance for sure, and it takes some habit development stuff. But I gotta tell you the same event has got to give me all 3, because I do not have time
to do 3 separate events, and we're already integrating customer value in your profit. You're already doing that.
Govindh Jayaraman (21:12):
Okay, so how do I? How do I rethink it? Because rethinking, it's gonna make me pause.
Michael Walsh (21:17):
Most.
Govindh Jayaraman (21:17):
Job.
Michael Walsh (21:18):
Well, yeah, but the only thing is, if you know that your team is part of the court. The truth is, they're part of the court like it or not, because they're the ones who are actually developing the results. They're the ones that are generating those results. They give you both halves. The key is, how do I do? The same event
that gives me the results also grows. The people. Well, if I focus on this is what's needed for the job.
(21:39):
And let's say I'm your boss for a minute. Okay? And I go, you know. Listen, Govin.
Govindh Jayaraman (21:44):
See! See how you just fired me, and.
Michael Walsh (21:45):
You gotta you gotta do the job. Well, let's see if you can do it first.st but but I guess I need you to do this job. You need to do this job. This is number of hours you have you got to do it? How do you feel so far.
Govindh Jayaraman (21:59):
Not great.
Michael Walsh (22:00):
Okay. But if I say, Listen, we we only have this number of hours. And let's see if we can figure this out. How do we do this thing? And you know, when we sat down and we did your growth plan and you'll go. Yeah, I'll say you told me you were interested in growing in this area.
in how we're doing this particular job, how do we design it so that it actually gives you that level of growth.
(22:26):
How do you feel now.
Govindh Jayaraman (22:29):
I'm thinking a lot harder.
Michael Walsh (22:31):
Yeah.
you know, you know what all of a sudden changed just in my own psychology when hearing that question.
Govindh Jayaraman (22:36):
It changed from. I can't do that.
And what's in it for me to. I'm really interested in that, and
I know what's in it for me.
Michael Walsh (22:48):
So what would happen if every single time I talked about what's needed in the job? I never talk about the job. I talk about your growth plan.
Govindh Jayaraman (22:54):
Oh, it would be very easy.
Michael Walsh (22:56):
Now here.
Govindh Jayaraman (22:57):
Get me motivated.
Michael Walsh (22:58):
Here's here's the other side. You and I both know you're a smart guy.
So if I'm talking about the growth plan and it's lip service.
It'd take you a fraction of a heartbeat to figure that out, wouldn't it?
Govindh Jayaraman (23:09):
Sure. Would. Yeah.
Michael Walsh (23:10):
So I actually would have to develop your career in that process.
Govindh Jayaraman (23:15):
Right.
Michael Walsh (23:15):
Because if I'm not doing that, then this doesn't work.
Govindh Jayaraman (23:19):
Yeah.
Michael Walsh (23:19):
So in real life I have to take your growth plan and overlay it against your job role. And the job role is how I help you grow.
But that's not that hard. And the reason it's not that hard is because what are you there for? You're there to grow your professionalism in actually delivering client results in the purview that we already operate. I don't promise you, if I'm an engineering firm. I don't promise you that you'll get better at architecture. I don't promise you that you'll get better at your golf swing. I don't promise that you'll get better at basket weaving. I have none of those promises. My promises specifically are that you'll be better in engineering.
(23:55):
The technical aspects, the fiscal aspects, the human aspects, to make it easier to work with us. And and then the sustainability of those aspects. So they're very specific promises. And your job will actually feed those, anyway, because that's where that's where the results are that you want to generate. So if I can help you grow, I can use that same job. And I don't talk about the job anymore. I talk about how the job supports you in your growth.
(24:18):
And how do we need to design the the job so that you can actually be supported in your growth.
and not like in a paltry way. That's not meaningful.
Govindh Jayaraman (24:28):
Hmm.
no, this has got to be in a real way, and this is, you know, speaking to sustainability. This is where the 3rd pillars, I mean no stool stands up without a 3rd leg. This is the 3rd leg of it that makes it sustainable. It makes it stand on its own, because now
the person, the individual in the role is
(24:53):
eagerly interested because it's part of their plan, right? It's part of their plan. It's part of what they've identified.
I think that, Michael, that's a great place to leave this, and then we'll come back in our next episode and talk about the growth plan itself.
Michael Walsh (25:12):
There's 1 thing I do want to say, though, with.
Govindh Jayaraman (25:14):
You always have one more thing to say, please. It's it's part of the growth plan.
Michael Walsh (25:18):
There you go! The
Govindh Jayaraman (25:20):
Part of my growth plan.
Michael Walsh (25:21):
Remember how we talked about hiring smart.
Govindh Jayaraman (25:23):
Yes.
Michael Walsh (25:24):
I don't want to hire people who don't want to grow.
Govindh Jayaraman (25:28):
Okay, so.
Michael Walsh (25:28):
Well, what about the people that just want to do their job and go home? You know what there are places for them, and you should actually encourage them to be in those places. This isn't that if I'm actually an expertise driven service based business, I need the expertise to grow so every single person is gonna be interested in growing.
This is super important.
Choose everybody. But I gotta tell you, once I choose. Yeah, I agree, it is important, because I gotta tell you if you don't get this piece, this looks ugly quick. It just won't.
Govindh Jayaraman (25:54):
Why? Why doesn't it work.
Michael Walsh (25:56):
Because I have no interest in growing. So you're going to tell me that I should grow? I'm like, Yeah, whatever can I get a raise. I'll just take that instead of this whole growth thing, you see. So I'll do whatever I need you to do my job to get paid. No, don't hire that person for your company.
because your your continued value to a customer is based on growing expertise, because the market's always changing, and if you're not growing your expertise. The the market will leave you behind in an expertise driven services company. And so if you're if I'm based in expertise, I have to be constantly working that side, because it's not hard to to lose traction and lose ground to everybody else.
Govindh Jayaraman (26:39):
Well, and I would argue, in the age of AI the speed of strategy and the speed of this has changed tremendously.
The plan that used to take 12 months needs to be revisited quarterly. The things that you did quarterly needs to be revisited monthly, the things that you did monthly needs to be revisited weekly. And and if and if people aren't interested in growth, they're not interested in that.
Michael Walsh (27:02):
Right.
Govindh Jayaraman (27:03):
And if they're not interested in that, and they're the ones that are responsible for delivering value and profit.
Well, they're not going to do much of either.
Michael Walsh (27:12):
And the only other comment that I would make about this would be, I've had a number of clients that we've worked with
as they've discovered what really goes into the growth plan and how it's used with the job role they're like, Oh, my gosh.
this is our secret sauce. This is our secret weapon. This allows us to really support our people. And this is why our people are actually singing our praises to
(27:36):
potential clients. So you know we're still in the process of hiring more people. But it's getting easier as we go, because people just love what it's like here. And they're like, this is like no other place we've ever been. Well, that's because nobody builds an ecosystem. But in every ecosystem that's exactly what it feels like. So is there something special about them? Yes, because they're building an ecosystem, but their ecosystem versus another. An ecosystem can be built, and if you actually
(28:00):
focus it on on the ecosystem notion everybody wins now. How many companies does everybody in the company win.
Govindh Jayaraman (28:09):
How many.
Michael Walsh (28:10):
Yeah. Whereas so if you're one of the companies where everybody wins, guess how hard it is to hire great people.
it gets easier and easier as you grow. So what it does in that, sir, gives you more freedom.
Govindh Jayaraman (28:24):
All right. Thank you, Michael.
Michael Walsh. Welcome back to paper napkin! Wisdom excited to continue this journey.
Michael Walsh (00:07):
Well, thanks for having me back.
Govindh Jayaraman (00:09):
Right. So we are discovering. Well, we are discussing and discovering. I'm discovering. You're discussing
the the freedom framework. And this is for leaders to understand and how, not just how, but why we want to build and stay focused on freedom in the business, to do the things we want to do freedom from the business, so we can go away and do the things outside of the business that we want to do, but also freedom because of the business to have
(00:38):
the life and maybe opportunities that come because of the business, you know, because of the wealth that is generated within the business, and because of the profitability of the business and all those kinds of things. So
in doing that we've talked about danger zones, and there are 4 big danger zones as a company grows. And then we've talked about people being the opportunity, but also the problem. And how do we solve that? How do we solve for that. And here's the thing that's sort of
(01:10):
coming to me as we do this.
as we're growing the business. We've got all this stuff that we got to do. We got to deliver for our clients. We gotta deliver profit. We've got to manage all of the factors that are there.
but you've said that we have to rethink the core.
and, rethinking the core, puts this extra pressure now on us to
grow our people professionally and personally, also on top of the profit. And on top of this other stuff. So where's all the time? Come for all of this stuff.
(01:42):
Michael.
Michael Walsh (01:44):
Oh, sure! Start with an easy question.
Govindh Jayaraman (01:47):
Yeah.
Michael Walsh (01:48):
I love what you said. You know people are. The people are, you know, a great resource, but they're also the problem. You know. I I it reminds me of Ford's quote way back, when in the early 19 hundreds, he says, You know, why can't we? Just people's hands show up? But the whole body shows up with it. It's like
so complicated with every you know. It's like their hopes, their dreams, their concerns, and all that stuff. He says we we end up with all of it, you know. But you're right. It's like, where do you get the time? Well.
(02:13):
as you know, the complexity of a company
multiplies as you increase the number of staff.
and it does exactly that. It chews up your time like you just don't have any time. So so
if you're going to train your people, and in fact, that's 1 of the biggest reasons why people don't spend as much time training as they theoretically know that they should.
(02:38):
they figure well, you know, the industry's got things, especially when you're in an expertise driven industry. They've got industry training, you know they've got continuing education, things they have to do. Shouldn't that be enough? That sort of thing, because then I don't have to do it as as you know, the owner. But if I'm going to build an intelligent ecosystem, it runs very differently from a well oiled machine. Well, a machine. I tell you what to do. You do what you're told, and then you do that. Well, of course.
(03:03):
notwithstanding that it kills creativity, if you that's even if you did follow what I said, but if you resent that, I was telling you that, then it takes it in a whole different direction, and so that just compounds the the difficulty, and how time consuming it is
so the question is that if I understand it correctly, how's that? For a long preamble to a simple question.
(03:26):
how?
How can I actually manage this? Given the time constraints of what it takes to grow a company, create value for my customers, protect my own profit stuff like that like, how do we do this?
Govindh Jayaraman (03:37):
Yeah. And and there's still, you know, only a certain amount of time in the day.
Michael Walsh (03:43):
Correct. And so, yeah, so we're talking about increasing your freedom.
What would happen if you started to integrate everything?
Integrated solutions work better than not.
Govindh Jayaraman (03:53):
So so let's talk about the alternative to integration, so that people can understand what integration is right.
Michael Walsh (03:57):
Sure.
Govindh Jayaraman (03:57):
Because that's not a term that everybody understands the same way. What does integration mean?
Michael Walsh (04:02):
Okay, so.
Govindh Jayaraman (04:03):
Or what is, what is, what is the opposite of integration.
Michael Walsh (04:05):
The opposite integration is, I spend some of my time doing this, and I spend some of my. So I spend some of my time creating value for my customers. I spend some of my time creating profit for my company, and then I got to spend this time over here, creating creating opportunities for my people to grow, and I'm literally running around all over the place because there's too much to do on me or my team to go around.
Govindh Jayaraman (04:25):
That's the distributed.
That's distributed results. That's where you're distributing your time. 1 h here, 1 h there, 1 h there, 1 h there. It adds up to 28 h. Some of it doesn't get done, and we're we're lost.
Michael Walsh (04:40):
And then Tuesday comes in. Now I get to start again. Well, hang on a sec. I did 28 h for Monday. I'm already into Tuesday, and sleep is be a nice thing. So, and and this is part of the reason why people initially have a difficult time with this notion of rethinking the core. Because what we're saying is your ability to generate results has always been the core. And by adding the teams as part of the core.
(05:03):
Then we've got customer value your profit. But we've also got this thing called professional growth. And that's why the professional growth is needed. So the question is, how do I design this so that it so that it you know it all works well.
Remember the conversation we had about the Social Contract.
Govindh Jayaraman (05:19):
Yes.
Michael Walsh (05:20):
That was a few episodes ago. I don't even know how many episodes ago, but it was a couple of episodes ago, and so in the Social Contract as the as the employer. There's things you want, you know, you need them to do their individual results. You need them to actually perform collective results for projects or initiatives that are larger than any one person can do. You want to? Actually, you want a stronger corporate culture as a result of people working together. And ultimately you want the
(05:46):
You want progress towards your pro, your purpose as a firm, or your mission, or whatever you want to call it. What the employee wants is they want to get paid
clearly. Number 2. They want professional training and growth, especially in an expertise driven environment. And then they also want to have access to meaningful work and meaningful relationships. Those are the other 2 things that they want. But the key on this one is the number 2 on both sides, so.
Govindh Jayaraman (06:10):
And and actually number one on both sides is highly aligned.
Generate results. For the owner company is profit.
value? Right? That that's that's what it means.
Employees want profit themselves right, they want compensation so very aligned there, and very aligned in number 2.
Michael Walsh (06:30):
Well, and number 2 is an equivalent to profit, because if I get professional growth, that means my career grows. I could get more profit, or I could get. You know I'm worth more in the marketplace, either with this company or beyond it, when you know if, as and when I move on as far as that's concerned. So the key to an effective ecosystem is number 2 on both of those, and that means professional growth and development.
(06:51):
which sounds like I'm beating around the bush around your time question.
Govindh Jayaraman (06:55):
Yes.
Michael Walsh (06:56):
And I probably am so.
Govindh Jayaraman (06:58):
Probably a little bit.
Michael Walsh (06:58):
You should vote that here we go. So again, non integrated, would be distributed results. I have to take part of my time for this and part of my time for that integrated is, if I can put them together and have the same event, doing one also doing the other.
So the way.
Govindh Jayaraman (07:13):
This is where it comes, where you keep on talking about rethinking the core.
Michael Walsh (07:17):
Correct.
And so the way to do that is through 2 specific tools. And today I want to talk about them. And in our next series. I want to go into detail on how to do it. The 1st part is okay. Everybody has a job.
So their job role. Okay, the way we usually set up somebody with their job role is it's based in accountabilities. It's based in results that they're designed to generate and remember, our job is to support them in generating results. We talked about that last time. And so, and the results are the technical results, the financial results, the human results and the sustainability of those results. So so we're actually working with them to generate results. Well, their job role has got to be focused
(07:58):
on the results that you want to generate. And so so I have 2 things in the job role. The 1st thing is, what's the purpose of the role.
And the second part is, what are the 3 to 5 areas of accountability?
And so, for example, any job can be broken down into the areas of accountability I can draw. I can even take a president, you know, President Slash owner's job and break his or her role down into the areas of accountability and keep it within. In fact, in in the President's job would be 5 number one is, they're accountable for the strategy development
(08:36):
number 2. They're accountable to ensure that we're attracting enough business or securing enough business to keep to keep ourselves meeting our goals. So that'd be your your marketing business development and sales. The 3rd area is to ensure that we're keeping the promises we make to our customers. In other words, your production delivery of services.
Okay? Because we're talking about service based companies here, although it's just as true for product based companies. Number 4 is ensure that I'm appropriately staffed
(09:05):
with people that can actually accomplish both the sales and the and the and the production elements to to deliver on our mandates and Number 5 is to handle the money. And that's product, the profitability, cash flow and capital are the 3 elements of that. So really, if I take a look, I got strategy, I got sales and marketing. I got production delivery. I got people and the money. Those are the areas of accountability. Now, what the outcomes are the specific results. That's a whole different conversation.
(09:32):
Each of those 5 areas. I could actually then, by identifying that, I could actually then turn around, say, what are the results in each of those 5 areas? And again with any job. I see there's at least 3, and you can always max it at 5. Now the reason to go 3 to 5 is
because it keeps it strategic. And and really, we're using a term called chunking.
(09:53):
Okay? And when we do chunking.
it's taking the big chunks. And then I might have 20 or 30 different to do's. I might even have 10 to do's in each of those 5 areas. Okay. But at the end of the day. The result is in that area.
So so the 1st job is to identify the job role. And you figure out, what is the what's the purpose of the role. What are the actual job chunks of that role?
(10:15):
Okay.
Govindh Jayaraman (10:17):
So what we're doing is we're taking the the bigger purpose and chunking it down into the role and then chunking that role further down into the areas of accountability.
Michael Walsh (10:30):
Right in order to to complete that role. Well, let's sustainable.
Let's say I work for you. So let me ask you a question.
Which are you? Gonna give me? Be gentle. Okay, some things. I'm not very good at something. Pretend I'm good at something and just pick a job, and we'll see we get.
Govindh Jayaraman (10:47):
Sure. Let's let's let's say operations. CEO.
Michael Walsh (10:52):
Co. Coo. Okay? So so so it could be ensure that we've got the appropriate
processes in place to support the delivery of our of our services
ensure that our people are equipped with the appropriate equipment
(11:17):
to to maximize the customer value in a way that's cost effective, and and really makes it easy for them to give their best. A 3rd one might be
I don't know. I was gonna go to keeping up with the trends so that we can continue to make sure that we're that we're, you know. We're on top of that thing, or I could go to the 3rd one would be to collaborate with the with the with the managers, to ensure that they've got the appropriate, that they've got the processes in place
(11:50):
to support the people, to hire each of the managers to hire the appropriate staff, and of course you're going to use an Hr. Department to support those managers as well. Ultimately you want the accountability for the staff to rest with the managers in in the various departments, let's say, in an operations driven environment. I'm thinking, let's say, an engineering firm. I've got different people at different levels. And because I'm trying to keep this to service based. And so so I might actually set it up. So each of the project
(12:15):
managers has what they need. So those are 3, and the 4th one might be to participate as part of the larger management team or the larger larger leadership team. And there's probably a 5th one of something I forgot.
So.
Govindh Jayaraman (12:28):
Sure.
Michael Walsh (12:29):
You know, but those the 4 really cover most of it is make sure that we've got the, you know the processes to support them, to to deliver their best in terms of the client results. Make sure that they've got the equipment and and tools and computer whatever necessary to do that ensure that the managers are armed with, or you know, you've got the systems that would support the the attraction and developing of people, and then participate as part of the top. The higher leadership team.
(12:58):
that probably covers 90% of a coo's job.
Govindh Jayaraman (13:01):
Right?
Right? So it's even in covers it pretty easily, and.
Michael Walsh (13:07):
To you know.
Govindh Jayaraman (13:09):
So what's
so once we've got the role and we've got the results that are related to it and the 3 to 5 areas accountability. And I love that you're calling it areas of accountability. Because you're you're redefining around the chunks of areas of accountability.
Michael Walsh (13:23):
Yeah.
Govindh Jayaraman (13:24):
Then? What.
Michael Walsh (13:25):
So the other half of that. So that's what the company wants. What do the people want? They want to grow
so career development growth plans.
So I've got to have a. The key is if I can align. So let's say we want to grow our coo.
Okay. So if I want to grow my coo. I'm in a situation where?
(13:48):
Okay, how big is our company now, today.
Govindh Jayaraman (13:51):
Let's say, 30 people.
Michael Walsh (13:53):
30 people. So 30 people might.
Govindh Jayaraman (13:56):
People, we shouldn't have a coo. Let's say, 75 people, let's say, 75 people, because 30 people we really shouldn't have a coo.
Michael Walsh (14:02):
Either that or your title happy, and that's.
Govindh Jayaraman (14:04):
Yeah, which is, that's another issue.
Michael Walsh (14:06):
But anyways, the but you're right. It's 75 people. Okay. So so 75 people, let's say, 9 million dollars.
Govindh Jayaraman (14:16):
Yeah.
Michael Walsh (14:17):
So I got a company. That's 9 million dollars. Okay? And and so when you look at my growth plan as a coo, what I would like to be is a C-level executive, whether it's a Coo or a CEO.
Let's say I may. Wanna I may wanna grow as far as that's concerned.
I may want to have something much larger, and I want to grow my capabilities as far as that's concerned. I've already got that for a 75 person firm. The question is, what are the skills that I'd need? And and you know, how do I actually grow beyond my current role? So the purpose of a growth plan is to give you access to to growing beyond your current role. So if I can actually design the growth plan
(14:58):
in such a way so that it actually can overlay with the actual job role itself.
Then I've got an integrated result.
Govindh Jayaraman (15:10):
You know, I'm actually seeing another layer of integration here, Michael, and I think this is sort of brilliant.
you know, if if our job is to support again, going back to
train and grow your people part one which was the dimensions of results. Not just results right? But there are 4 dimensions of results, technical, financial, human, and sustainable. And then, if we understand that in the context of
(15:38):
you know, making this part of the role that career development growth plan is part of that.
What do people put on their Cvs, they don't put all the skills. I mean, they do put all the skills. But people get really intrigued about the results
that they get. So the results need to be aligned. And this is where this is gets really really cool. If the results are aligned with growth in the direction of where people want to be.
(16:03):
then that's exactly where they want to be. I mean, that's exactly what they want. That's that's the step 2
in the Social Contract.
Michael Walsh (16:12):
Well, absolutely. And and in fact, if if we put that on and let's say you had me here for I don't know. Let's call 5 years.
Okay? So 1st of all.
you clearly had patience. If you had me working with you, just leave it at that. But you know I might say that that you know, on my resume, instead of saying, Well, I developed this skill or that skill. What I could say is that I supported paper napkin. Wisdom Inc.
(16:40):
To to, you know, grow from 75 people in 9 million to 250 people. And
you know, 40 million.
And it's like 250 people, 40 million. Wow! The profitability is up. Well, yeah, he he taught me well, and I learned. But but the thing that you know, if if that can be done based on actually integrating these results. So the same event that actually has somebody grow have that same event be fed by the actual job role itself.
(17:12):
Now.
Govindh Jayaraman (17:13):
This is why you say it's rethinking, because that's not that hard to conceive of.
If you're thinking about it differently.
Michael Walsh (17:21):
Well, yeah, if you take a long term perspective just by integrating those 2 things, then we're all set. Now, I'm you know, we were talking about putting the actual growth plan itself into the next one. I'm almost inclined to do it now.
Govindh Jayaraman (17:31):
Sure it's up to you.
Yeah, keep going.
Michael Walsh (17:34):
You want to go there.
Govindh Jayaraman (17:35):
Sure.
Michael Walsh (17:36):
Okay, so so,
Govindh Jayaraman (17:39):
Actually, why don't? Why don't we do this before we do that? I do want to talk about how? Okay? So if the team are part of the core.
Michael Walsh (17:47):
Yes.
Govindh Jayaraman (17:48):
And the team is responsible within the core for delivering results and their professional growth plan.
And that's just a rethinking of the role and rethinking of the structure.
And we said that there are really 2 parts of it right there. There's the job role itself, and and the 3 to 5 accountabilities. And there's the growth plan. That's part of it.
Michael Walsh (18:10):
For every single. And it's the individual teams of knowledge workers. Some of them may be geared on customer value. Other teams may be geared on protecting profits like your finance team. Other teams may be actually be there for professional growth to support that.
Govindh Jayaraman (18:24):
Okay. So I want to go back to the 1st point that I said, because I think that somewhere, listening to this right now, there's an entrepreneur.
Or CEO, who's listening to this going? I am going 80 HA day.
Michael Walsh (18:40):
Yep.
Govindh Jayaraman (18:41):
They're not going any energy, but they're feeling like they're overwhelmed
and they're overwhelmed trying to deliver customer value. They understand very quickly and very easily this idea of. Okay. Look, I understand that I'm responsible for and accountable for strategic development. That's a chunk for me. I am out there ensuring my businesses grow by attracting enough
(19:05):
qualified possible clients to me all the time I am running around
24, 7, ensuring that we're keeping the promises that we're making to our clients, and I am
man staffing such a challenge today. Getting the right people is unbelievably, incredibly difficult. I spent a lot of time there and then, man, if I do some of that stuff right, I've got enough.
(19:32):
You know I'm growing my company on the top and bottom line, and I'm doing it while supporting cash flow. So that's another shell game that I'm trying to keep up on top of. Now
I have to add this professional growth. Where am I going to do this in the time this is? This sounds like it's overwhelming. So what would you say again? Let's take a step back. When do I do this? In my schedule?
Michael Walsh (19:58):
Don't you already integrate customer value in your profit?
I'd sell you something at a price that leaves me a profit, I think, through the game in advance, and then I sell you something that the same event gives me profit. So you don't have to do 2 events. Well, one called. Give a customer the value, and then the other one is to actually work on on the prop. So even as I'm hiring people, if I know I can afford an $80,000 person.
(20:24):
I'm not gonna hire $120,000 person because their skills. I'm gonna continue to look to get the $80,000 person, because I know that that I've got to be able to generate the customer value while concurrently getting the profit.
So all I'm saying is the same forward thinking allows us to not only get customer value and my profit, but I also do it in a way that the people that are now part of my core, because the truth is, they're the ones that deliver it. I don't deliver it. They deliver it collectively, so I'm doing it in such a way. So I get the customer value my profit, but we also get their growth in the same event.
(20:56):
So it takes thinking in advance for sure, and it takes some habit development stuff. But I gotta tell you the same event has got to give me all 3, because I do not have time
to do 3 separate events, and we're already integrating customer value in your profit. You're already doing that.
Govindh Jayaraman (21:12):
Okay, so how do I? How do I rethink it? Because rethinking, it's gonna make me pause.
Michael Walsh (21:17):
Most.
Govindh Jayaraman (21:17):
Job.
Michael Walsh (21:18):
Well, yeah, but the only thing is, if you know that your team is part of the court. The truth is, they're part of the court like it or not, because they're the ones who are actually developing the results. They're the ones that are generating those results. They give you both halves. The key is, how do I do? The same event
that gives me the results also grows. The people. Well, if I focus on this is what's needed for the job.
(21:39):
And let's say I'm your boss for a minute. Okay? And I go, you know. Listen, Govin.
Govindh Jayaraman (21:44):
See! See how you just fired me, and.
Michael Walsh (21:45):
You gotta you gotta do the job. Well, let's see if you can do it first.st but but I guess I need you to do this job. You need to do this job. This is number of hours you have you got to do it? How do you feel so far.
Govindh Jayaraman (21:59):
Not great.
Michael Walsh (22:00):
Okay. But if I say, Listen, we we only have this number of hours. And let's see if we can figure this out. How do we do this thing? And you know, when we sat down and we did your growth plan and you'll go. Yeah, I'll say you told me you were interested in growing in this area.
in how we're doing this particular job, how do we design it so that it actually gives you that level of growth.
(22:26):
How do you feel now.
Govindh Jayaraman (22:29):
I'm thinking a lot harder.
Michael Walsh (22:31):
Yeah.
you know, you know what all of a sudden changed just in my own psychology when hearing that question.
Govindh Jayaraman (22:36):
It changed from. I can't do that.
And what's in it for me to. I'm really interested in that, and
I know what's in it for me.
Michael Walsh (22:48):
So what would happen if every single time I talked about what's needed in the job? I never talk about the job. I talk about your growth plan.
Govindh Jayaraman (22:54):
Oh, it would be very easy.
Michael Walsh (22:56):
Now here.
Govindh Jayaraman (22:57):
Get me motivated.
Michael Walsh (22:58):
Here's here's the other side. You and I both know you're a smart guy.
So if I'm talking about the growth plan and it's lip service.
It'd take you a fraction of a heartbeat to figure that out, wouldn't it?
Govindh Jayaraman (23:09):
Sure. Would. Yeah.
Michael Walsh (23:10):
So I actually would have to develop your career in that process.
Govindh Jayaraman (23:15):
Right.
Michael Walsh (23:15):
Because if I'm not doing that, then this doesn't work.
Govindh Jayaraman (23:19):
Yeah.
Michael Walsh (23:19):
So in real life I have to take your growth plan and overlay it against your job role. And the job role is how I help you grow.
But that's not that hard. And the reason it's not that hard is because what are you there for? You're there to grow your professionalism in actually delivering client results in the purview that we already operate. I don't promise you, if I'm an engineering firm. I don't promise you that you'll get better at architecture. I don't promise you that you'll get better at your golf swing. I don't promise that you'll get better at basket weaving. I have none of those promises. My promises specifically are that you'll be better in engineering.
(23:55):
The technical aspects, the fiscal aspects, the human aspects, to make it easier to work with us. And and then the sustainability of those aspects. So they're very specific promises. And your job will actually feed those, anyway, because that's where that's where the results are that you want to generate. So if I can help you grow, I can use that same job. And I don't talk about the job anymore. I talk about how the job supports you in your growth.
(24:18):
And how do we need to design the the job so that you can actually be supported in your growth.
and not like in a paltry way. That's not meaningful.
Govindh Jayaraman (24:28):
Hmm.
no, this has got to be in a real way, and this is, you know, speaking to sustainability. This is where the 3rd pillars, I mean no stool stands up without a 3rd leg. This is the 3rd leg of it that makes it sustainable. It makes it stand on its own, because now
the person, the individual in the role is
(24:53):
eagerly interested because it's part of their plan, right? It's part of their plan. It's part of what they've identified.
I think that, Michael, that's a great place to leave this, and then we'll come back in our next episode and talk about the growth plan itself.
Michael Walsh (25:12):
There's 1 thing I do want to say, though, with.
Govindh Jayaraman (25:14):
You always have one more thing to say, please. It's it's part of the growth plan.
Michael Walsh (25:18):
There you go! The
Govindh Jayaraman (25:20):
Part of my growth plan.
Michael Walsh (25:21):
Remember how we talked about hiring smart.
Govindh Jayaraman (25:23):
Yes.
Michael Walsh (25:24):
I don't want to hire people who don't want to grow.
Govindh Jayaraman (25:28):
Okay, so.
Michael Walsh (25:28):
Well, what about the people that just want to do their job and go home? You know what there are places for them, and you should actually encourage them to be in those places. This isn't that if I'm actually an expertise driven service based business, I need the expertise to grow so every single person is gonna be interested in growing.
This is super important.
Choose everybody. But I gotta tell you, once I choose. Yeah, I agree, it is important, because I gotta tell you if you don't get this piece, this looks ugly quick. It just won't.
Govindh Jayaraman (25:54):
Why? Why doesn't it work.
Michael Walsh (25:56):
Because I have no interest in growing. So you're going to tell me that I should grow? I'm like, Yeah, whatever can I get a raise. I'll just take that instead of this whole growth thing, you see. So I'll do whatever I need you to do my job to get paid. No, don't hire that person for your company.
because your your continued value to a customer is based on growing expertise, because the market's always changing, and if you're not growing your expertise. The the market will leave you behind in an expertise driven services company. And so if you're if I'm based in expertise, I have to be constantly working that side, because it's not hard to to lose traction and lose ground to everybody else.
Govindh Jayaraman (26:39):
Well, and I would argue, in the age of AI the speed of strategy and the speed of this has changed tremendously.
The plan that used to take 12 months needs to be revisited quarterly. The things that you did quarterly needs to be revisited monthly, the things that you did monthly needs to be revisited weekly. And and if and if people aren't interested in growth, they're not interested in that.
Michael Walsh (27:02):
Right.
Govindh Jayaraman (27:03):
And if they're not interested in that, and they're the ones that are responsible for delivering value and profit.
Well, they're not going to do much of either.
Michael Walsh (27:12):
And the only other comment that I would make about this would be, I've had a number of clients that we've worked with
as they've discovered what really goes into the growth plan and how it's used with the job role they're like, Oh, my gosh.
this is our secret sauce. This is our secret weapon. This allows us to really support our people. And this is why our people are actually singing our praises to
(27:36):
potential clients. So you know we're still in the process of hiring more people. But it's getting easier as we go, because people just love what it's like here. And they're like, this is like no other place we've ever been. Well, that's because nobody builds an ecosystem. But in every ecosystem that's exactly what it feels like. So is there something special about them? Yes, because they're building an ecosystem, but their ecosystem versus another. An ecosystem can be built, and if you actually
(28:00):
focus it on on the ecosystem notion everybody wins now. How many companies does everybody in the company win.
Govindh Jayaraman (28:09):
How many.
Michael Walsh (28:10):
Yeah. Whereas so if you're one of the companies where everybody wins, guess how hard it is to hire great people.
it gets easier and easier as you grow. So what it does in that, sir, gives you more freedom.
Govindh Jayaraman (28:24):
All right. Thank you, Michael.
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