Darren Hickman has spent decades navigating the complex terrain of branding, marketing, and emotional engagement. A former Disney executive and seasoned marketing strategist, Darren brings an uncanny ability to see how the unseen emotional levers drive business outcomes. In this episode of Paper Napkin Wisdom, Darren shares a deceptively simple truth scrawled on his napkin: “Nearly all decisions are driven by emotions… How you can leverage that in business.”
What follows in our conversation is an emotional masterclass in leadership, branding, and influence.
“Logic justifies decisions — but emotions make them,” Darren says early in the episode. “If you’re not speaking to the heart, you’re not speaking to the decision-maker.”
This episode cuts deep into the myth that B2B means “cold and rational.” Darren asserts, and supports, that emotional storytelling is just as critical in a boardroom as it is in a living room. And he doesn’t leave the concept floating in theory — he brings tools and stories that leaders can act on immediately.
The Emotional Brain Buys First, the Logical Brain Justifies After
Darren walks us through the neuroscience of decision-making. In his words, “The limbic brain, which governs emotion, doesn’t even have the capacity for language — yet it runs the show. That’s why people will say ‘I just felt it was right.’”
He urges business leaders to stop trying to win with logic alone and instead focus on how their brand or leadership style feels to others.
Stories Create Safety — and Movement
Darren tells a story from his time working with top-tier brands where a CEO’s message fell flat because it was purely informational. “We reframed the message with a story — just a 90-second emotional arc — and suddenly, the team leaned in.”
The takeaway? If your people aren’t moving, your message might not be emotional enough.
Leading with Emotional Honesty
As a leader, Darren says the greatest opportunity is to model vulnerability and real emotional expression. “If your team sees you as invincible, you’ve already lost them,” he shares. “Let them see how you feel about the mission, not just what you think.”
He’s not talking about emotional outbursts, but intentional, authentic emotional leadership. The kind that drives trust, not fear.
Marketing That Resonates
In an era of information overload, Darren emphasizes the importance of brand storytelling that’s rooted in emotional resonance, not just clever taglines. He believes your brand must answer one critical emotional question: “What do we want people to feel when they experience us?”
This applies to internal culture as much as it does to customers. As he put it, “People remember how you made them fe
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Govindh Jayaraman (00:02):
Darren Hickman. Welcome to paper napkin wisdom excited to have you here today.
Darren Hickman (00:07):
Thank you very much for having me.
Govindh Jayaraman (00:09):
So you shared your paper napkin today, which was nearly all decisions are driven by emotions.
How you can leverage that in business. Why did you share that with me.
Darren Hickman (00:22):
It's something that I've been dealing with recently, actually, in my own business. And it's also something that I have to constantly remind myself
because of something I learned in a previous phase of my career.
I I started out working in the agriculture business, but then I moved into advertising and marketing.
(00:44):
and in advertising and marketing. What they teach you to do, as the most effective way to communicate with people is to to actually do a laddering exercise
and a laddering exercise is actually looking at
what you're trying to sell. It could be an idea it could be a product. And you're supposed to 1st define the product features or the service features.
(01:11):
But then, what you do is you go to the benefits, of course, right? So someone doesn't buy a product or a service because of what it does outside of their
person situation. They actually do
purchase because of what it can do for that? Right? So what is the benefit to them?
(01:32):
A lot of companies stop there, right? They and we have all seen product benefit marketing.
But what has happened recently and over time is.
businesses have become much more aware of the fact that it isn't the product that people are buying. It's actually
(01:53):
what it contributes to their life. And this actually again, getting to my topic isn't just about buying a product. It's actually about
interacting with everyone in your life
people in your personal life. If you're in school, it's your teachers, etc.
And it's all about actually creating some empathy with that person with that audience and figuring out what they really want out of the situation, and again getting back to a product situation. What that really ends up looking like is emotional benefits.
(02:30):
and a lot of us have been exposed to and read about the importance of storytelling right as a marketing tool. But storytelling also relates to people's personal lives. If you want someone to understand you and what you want. Often it involves telling a story. And again, that touches on the emotions and the emotional benefits
(02:57):
getting to my current situation with my current business. And that is card on guard. It's a new technology for pools and hot tubs. It uses sunlight to
control bacteria.
There's a lot of science behind it. It can get very technical.
even though I have that marketing background, where I,
(03:19):
basically on a day-to-day basis, was looking for again the emotional benefit. What is it really that the consumer wants?
I found myself
focusing so much on the technical details, trying to explain it, trying to actually convince people that this technology does work.
(03:43):
I stopped thinking about the emotional benefit.
When I realized that I was missing the boat.
I did start to think about, okay, what is it that people really want? Right, regardless of what I am selling as a
product feature and a benefit. What do they really want out of it? And that's when I really started to gain traction with my business.
Govindh Jayaraman (04:08):
Yeah, it's really interesting that we do. This. 1st of all, agriculture to advertising doesn't sound like an actual
lib. I'm sure there's a great story there. But before we go there, you know.
it's easy. When we're when we're innovating.
We're really focused on the product, aren't we? I mean product Price place promotion. That's the 4 P's of marketing that everybody's drilled into. Along with that that ladder. You know, one of the things we talk about is product product product. If you don't have a product, you have a nothing. So people focus on the product so much
(04:43):
and and the technical differentiation, I mean, we get really proud as innovators, entrepreneurs about what we've built. And and so we like to talk about it, don't we? I mean, and it's interesting that we that you fell into that?
How how did you, you know? Was it? Was it an obvious
(05:05):
moment where you went? Oh, geez! I've I've fallen into the trap, or did you get hit in the head because I tend to get hit in the head.
Darren Hickman (05:13):
Yeah. Well, I got hit in the head gradually. Actually, when I started to notice that people's eyes were glazing over, and that people were actually stopping me in the middle of my 15 min, you know, diatribe. And actually going back to the 1st minute of what I was talking about. I started to see that I was just kind of losing people, and and then they would just kind of walk away. Whether that was physically or I would just stop hearing from them over the phone or of the Internet
(05:43):
and after a while I realized that I'm not grabbing them early enough and and having them get excited enough to stick around to hear the last 14 min of what I want to say.
Govindh Jayaraman (05:57):
Right.
And and so for people listening car on guard is a
sort of a natural solution, combining solar energy with some technology to help keep your pool and hot tub clean and look, I've had pools my whole life, and one of the things we learn pool 101 is, the sun kills chlorine. So
(06:22):
everybody who has a pool
knows that the sun kills chlorine, and you're telling them that the sun is going to help you make chlorine, which everybody is going to be like. Well, what are you talking about? That's not possible. That doesn't happen right? So which is
for people listening. That's the natural lean away from the emotional side to to put down the doubting Thomas's and say, No, no, no, it's real, it's real. This is how it works. Right? Am I? Am I wrong? Am I missing something here.
Darren Hickman (06:53):
No, no, no, you're right. And and actually
coming up with a product that says you can reduce the amount of chlorine you're needing and using is actually challenging a long held belief that chlorine is the easiest, the cheapest, the most effective right, and the most widely accepted. All of those things are true.
(07:18):
which means that I have to strike a fine balance between talking about the product, the details, the technicalities like you said, I have to convince people that this product does work. Given that people
are thinking the opposite right. But then I have to use enough of the emotional appeal to get them excited and to stick with me, and actually to tell you a little bit about how the product works is.
(07:47):
You're right. The sun kills chlorine.
Yeah. But if you use less chlorine
and you're using something else that kills the bacteria.
the chlorine remains as what's called free chlorine, right? And it and it just sits in there. That's how I can say to people, reduce your chlorine.
(08:09):
even though the sun does kill some of it off. But the sun only kills a fraction of it off. So if you're using less chlorine.
then the sun will cool off less chlorine. Right? So again it gets confusing. It's a. It's a it's a fine tightrope between explaining the product details, the technicalities. And again going after that emotional appeal. Right? So
(08:34):
that's a lot.
Govindh Jayaraman (08:35):
The other part of it is, you're you're also fighting traditional channels of distribution in your in your world. In this particular industry, too right? Because.
Darren Hickman (08:42):
Yes.
Govindh Jayaraman (08:43):
And so how does emotion play into that? Because.
you know, the pool companies want you coming back all the time to buy more chlorine and more chemicals, and do the testing. And like this is, this is where they make their money right.
Darren Hickman (08:58):
Exactly my 1st product was based on this need to have an emotional appeal.
this is the latest product that came out with. It's a tube, and it looks like something you would use in your pool. But there's nothing sexy about it. There's nothing emotional about this right. I came out with this recently what I started with because I I really understood that you needed something emotional is, I came up with something cool. This is like the iphone of pool products. Right? We've won design awards, etc.
Govindh Jayaraman (09:32):
The shark fin on the top. So, people, it's like this oversized ipad with clearly some membrane in the middle, and at the top there's a shark fin, and because it's lobsided in its weight, clearly, the shark fin would stick up above the water right? I mean, so people who are listening.
(09:53):
You can just imagine this blue shark fin skimming the the bottom of your pool, the top of your pool. So yeah.
Darren Hickman (10:01):
So this is kind of how it is. So again, with my marketing background, I knew that I had to come out with something again because I'm challenging the chlorine market. I knew I knew I had to come out with something again like the iphone. It's sexy, aesthetically appealing. Ultimately, that's all emotional right? So I knew I had to do that. But the
(10:22):
the ironic thing is that I ended up in the beginning going after the professional market. I tried to sell into wholesalers retailers, and they look at this. And they say, Okay, that's really cool. But they immediately go back to. But I want to keep my chlorine sales. So I really wasn't succeeding.
Then I realized, you know what I'm going to sell it direct to consumer. The consumer appreciates it. The consumer doesn't care that chlorine sales are going down.
(10:53):
So that's why I created a whole marketing campaign. That, again, that is emotionally driven focused on the fin and card on guard actually is playing off of this fin right? And my tagline is on guard against bacteria, naturally. And I have some videos that show it moving through the water like a shark, because I needed to grab attention. I needed to get people excited about it. Wow! That looks really cool. And what's interesting is, even though I've come out with this tube.
(11:22):
which again seems very practical, it's much closer to the appearance of a real pool product.
Now that I'm going after consumers overwhelmingly, they're going for the fin. And why is that? Because it's cool, it's emotional. And and they they want to have it in their pool.
Govindh Jayaraman (11:43):
Right?
So early on when you. So I can just imagine, because I've been there
talking to somebody about the features and benefits and technical specifications, and how this is going to make your life 5% better. And people just
not really being interested in that.
(12:03):
How did you realign like? What's the process look like for you, I mean, and you come from a marketing advertising background. So maybe it was a little bit more natural. But what was the process that you did to get away from your baby, your creation?
To put your mind in the lens of the customer.
Darren Hickman (12:24):
I had to focus on what is the final advantage for the consumer in using this. So I basically had to flip the script. So in the beginning, I felt like I needed to explain and convince.
And because this is this is a very unique product. And it's product that that is hard for people to actually
(12:52):
wrap their head around and believe it's unplugged. No electricity, no equipment. You just drop it in and it works using sunlight. And people are like, Well, how is that possible? Right? So when I started to speak
in those terms, I would immediately run into obstacles. So I I basically had to at 1 point say, I'm gonna stop talking about the product, what it does, how it does it more specifically and focus on reduces.
(13:24):
Your need for chlorine by minimum 50% using only natural light. And they're and then and then they're like, Oh, well, wow, okay, so tell me more. Right. And then I focus on
what is valuable to them.
Drop in ease of use. Works for 12 months, doesn't emit any chemicals.
(13:46):
Again, it's flipping it. It's flipping it and starting with
looking at it from their point of view. What are the emotional benefits of those things? Well, it's easy, just like chlorine. It's cheap, just like chlorine. It saves you money, and it works for 12 months much longer than chlorine. So it's going to save you time. Right? So again at some point.
(14:08):
I just flipped it on its head and started speaking about it from their point of view. What would I want to hear if I was seeing this product for the 1st time.
Govindh Jayaraman (14:17):
And you didn't land on that right away, right like you probably iterated a whole lot, and it sounds like
you went customer direct. But it sounds like you were face to face to a lot of customers. How how did you manage that?
Darren Hickman (14:31):
Yeah, well, again, part of my career goes back to the skincare industry.
and I was selling organic skincare products to spas and hotels and resorts. So I had a lot of contacts in that kind of Spa which is heavily based on, you know, water right hot tubs and pools resorts. So I contacted them, and I had them try it out, and I had them give me feedback, and I had them ask questions, so that I understood what people thought was really important.
Govindh Jayaraman (15:05):
So you lean into your existing network from skincare.
Darren Hickman (15:08):
Yep.
Govindh Jayaraman (15:09):
In in the Spa world to get.
you know, real customer feedback. And I really think that this is really important.
A lot of tech companies. A lot of innovative companies don't find collaborative clients and collaborative clients are ones that are willing to try it out and really give you meaningful feedback. It's yeah. It's super important, isn't it?
Darren Hickman (15:33):
It's it's very important because there is no product development lifecycle that's completely smooth.
right? And so you need people to give you honest feedback, and you need people that won't be offended when something goes wrong. So, for example, when I was developing this tube version, I had 4 or 5
(15:56):
iterations of it, and a lot of failures. Not that the base technology was failing, but the substrate or something about it. You know the glue. Something about it was was failing, and and that was incredibly valuable
(16:17):
to get to a final product.
Govindh Jayaraman (16:19):
So
you said something interesting, and and I have a story in my own head about this, but you talked about it, and you gave an example of people who won't get offended when things go wrong.
Right. And and
this is a really critical thing in product development. And I think Simon Sinek talks about it and start with, why, right when you, when you start with, why you get the early adopters who are willing to collaborate with you to make your product better right? They're not going to abandon you
(16:49):
your 1st failure. This is this is a really important thing that I think a lot of us get wrong because we're not starting with the people that we align with.
We're we're pitching 1st and just going along with the pitchy people.
the people who fall for the pitch. Right?
(17:10):
So so you did it the other way. You did it with people who you deeply align with, who were going to forgive you for your misgivings early on, and give you meaningful feedback.
What did you do to incent them?
Take a chance on card on guard.
Darren Hickman (17:26):
Well, 1st of all, the the the promise of what it can do is incredibly valuable for people
right? So from the get go. Many of them were like, Yeah, I mean, if it does what you say it does, I'll give it a shot right?
The second reason is that a lot of people just want to help
(17:50):
right? And I think that's something that a lot of entrepreneurs forget.
And that is
just to ask, because people do want to help. And that's the basis for a lot of research.
right? A lot of research that even goes to random people. They know that there's a portion of the audience out there that will
fill out a survey just because they're asked, and they want to help, and they want to feel valuable
(18:17):
and valued.
Govindh Jayaraman (18:22):
Just because they're asked. That's really interesting, because you're not saying that there's an incentive beyond just the ask and their willingness to come forward, and I think that we sort of try to try this tomfoolery, this trickery where I'm gonna oh, fill out our survey and we'll give you an ipad. You're not getting real feedback. Then you're not getting people who want to help you.
(18:44):
When you do that, you're getting people who want to help them, aren't you?
Darren Hickman (18:48):
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
Govindh Jayaraman (18:50):
So so you focused on people who want to help you
and then and and aligned around what the potential benefit could be. If you got this right.
which would be great for them?
Yeah. And then they really were there to help you.
Darren Hickman (19:09):
Yes, yeah. And as a second phase, I went on Facebook
to my friends. And I said again, when I was
testing a prototype of the tube, I said, Hey, I'm testing this new prototype. Anyone want to give it a try, I'll send you a free product. The only thing they got out of it was something free to try. But what I was asking them actually to do was to kind of risk their existing pool and hot tub care routine. So there was a lot at stake for them
(19:41):
but it and it wasn't because they get a free thing, because this could have screwed up their pool and hot tub right? They wanted to help. They were like, Yeah, cool. That's great.
Govindh Jayaraman (19:51):
And you know, like, just just for people
listening again. If you haven't had a pool or hot tub
when you've got a system that works on your pool and hot tub. You like to maintain it, because that season is not as long as you think it is. People think, oh, people in California have a longer pool cycle than people. It's not that much longer. People are not in the pool. 12 months of the year in most places in North America? Certainly not where I am in Canada, but regardless of that pool, cycles are short, the maintenance regime that people follow
(20:28):
you get pretty committed to it because it works, and you get to use the pool, and if you don't get to use the pool it can be weeks before you restore the balance. Right? So this is. This is not low stakes poker here.
Darren Hickman (20:41):
Well in in in a bit of an odd way. This touches on the issue of getting emotional versus technical, because what my product promises is that you don't have to change anything that you're currently doing with your pool.
You just use less chlorine because what most people don't realize is almost all systems out there require chlorine as residual. It's called a residual like a backup. Right now. A lot of them promise that you can reduce your amount of chlorine dramatically, but you need it as a backup.
(21:17):
And so what I was telling people. And again, this gets to the emotional pitch which is
built into this product from the beginning. I knew that if I had to tell people
switch out what you're doing and use this, I would
gain very little traction. So I had to come up with something that said, I'm going to work with your existing system. You're still going to get a good free chlorine, etc. So, anyway.
Govindh Jayaraman (21:49):
No, I think it's really important, and it shouldn't be. It shouldn't be overlooked. So number one, you went out for people who just wanted to help number 2. You went out to your Facebook friends and said, Hey, who wants to give this a shot?
And then was there a 3rd step? What came after that?
Darren Hickman (22:05):
You know, at every stage of a business at some point you gotta roll the dice right? You just cannot keep testing and testing and testing, especially when it comes to water.
It's so difficult it's so complicated to manage water, you know. The the dog could jump in the pool. Heavy rainfall, whatever that can mess up the chemistry. So at some point.
Govindh Jayaraman (22:32):
Kid comes over, and peas in the pool like.
Darren Hickman (22:34):
Yeah, yeah, big weekend party, and the beer is flowing and the sweat is rolling and all that stuff. So at some point you just have to. And I know this is said in many different places. At some point you just have to roll the dice, get it in the marketplace collect that feedback right? Which is very risky, right? Because you're actually you're out there, and it's public. So
(23:01):
But you gotta do it.
Govindh Jayaraman (23:02):
Yeah, so that's.
Darren Hickman (23:04):
That's really my 3rd phase.
Govindh Jayaraman (23:05):
So your 3rd phase is, roll the dice and I'm assuming step 4 is iterate, iterate, iterate, iterate, and there's probably an iteration cycle in between each one of those stages, too. Right?
Darren Hickman (23:15):
There is. There's always some tweaking. Yes.
Govindh Jayaraman (23:18):
Yeah. So a lot of people that invent a product
create a product like you do
have a hard time getting off the podium about how brilliant
the product was which is really like. Look how smart I am for creating this.
Darren Hickman (23:38):
Right, right, yeah.
Govindh Jayaraman (23:40):
I'm not getting that vibe from you. Why.
Darren Hickman (23:43):
Well, after so many years of developing and testing things going wrong, it's incredibly humbling, right? So I think that you know the people that are on the podium and selling selling are are hiding some things right. And they're they're trying to cover up what it really means to launch a business and a product. And what it really means is.
(24:12):
you've got some failures you've got, you know, long periods of time when nothing is really happening. And but again, if you believe in your product and you stick with it, you can get to a point where you are confident but humble at the same time
and and again I get back to this product. Technicalities, benefits, features, and the emotional pitch.
(24:36):
You got to stay in touch with the emotional pitch, because that's what the market and your audience is thinking and feeling. And if you're focused too much on your podium speech about your product, then you're going to have blinders on, and you got to keep reminding yourself, why do people really want this thing? And is this really delivering what they want.
Govindh Jayaraman (24:59):
Hmm!
There's a difference between failures and fake negatives right and and fake negatives. I so
my the experience that I I laughed about when thinking about
people who would be offended when things don't go wrong. Is, I sold a renewable fuel product for many years, and became very big at doing it. We were one of the 1st ones selling it to fleets and stuff like that. And I can remember early on
(25:25):
that someone used our renewable fuel, which was biodiesel, mixed in with a little bit of Diesel fuel.
And
they they said to me that we have a really big problem. You need to come down to the yard right away, so I had to travel. I got there, got out.
and they allege that the renewable fuel was causing flat tires in the vehicles.
(25:48):
and because they had a higher incidence of flat tires since they switched.
And you know
the the fleet manager was convinced that this was the case. Obviously it wasn't. And you know, somebody eventually pointed out that they changed the adhesive that they were using at about the same time, and it was likely the adhesive and not anything to do with the fuel. But that's a fake negative. Right? And thankfully
(26:16):
the the buyer, the fleet manager.
was not going to fall for the face negative, false, negative, but they had to convince their maiden supervisor
that had nothing to do with the fuel.
So there's a difference between failure and a fake negative. And you really need product champions. You really need champions to help you through those things. Don't you.
Darren Hickman (26:37):
Yeah, you do. And speaking of fake negatives, the the water industry is full, no pun intended full of it. And again, because it is so complicated.
Govindh Jayaraman (26:49):
Could say, it's a wash with fake negatives.
Darren Hickman (26:52):
It's a it's a wash with big negatives. Yeah. So I am always prepared and on my toes to respond again humbly, right? Because I don't know exactly what is going on with their pool or hot tub, but
I know that there's a hundred different possibilities, and I have to be sure that I am responding.
(27:16):
but also understanding that it's very possible. It's not my product that's not working. It's something else that they are doing.
And again, there's alkalinity. There's Ph, there's calcium hardness. There's all this stuff
that could be wrong. And and I I have to navigate that. Yeah, like, I would guess a lot of companies.
(27:38):
Yeah.
Govindh Jayaraman (27:40):
But but the critical point that I'm making is that when you're dealing with an established industry, you really have to get humble about the approach there, because you can't just say
you can't come in. Pointing a finger.
Darren Hickman (27:54):
But you have to.
Govindh Jayaraman (27:54):
Go in, very curious to distinguish between the failure which could exist and the fake negative, which is not likely.
Darren Hickman (28:04):
No. And and again that touches on this emotional pitch.
if a company gets defensive all of the time and starts pointing the finger. That's the opposite of empathizing with the audience. Right? It's the opposite of taking a humble approach.
(28:25):
And I think everyone has experienced both of those cases, you know, with any kind of a service or a product, whether it's going into a restaurant, and they complain about you know how well done the meat is, and the server says, well, that's what you asked for. Right? I mean.
that is the opposite of an emotional approach. Right? So again, I think the effectiveness in business is based on having
(28:53):
empathy and being clear on the emotional need of the audience.
Govindh Jayaraman (29:01):
Can you fake caring about your client?
Darren Hickman (29:05):
You can to an extent, but
it will reveal itself very quickly.
Yeah. So it's better just to care about your client. Right?
It's yeah, it's better. It's easier and it's more stress free. Yeah.
Govindh Jayaraman (29:18):
That's correct.
Darren. We've been ending every episode this season with a shout out to a former paper and napkin wisdom guest. He was on the show 11 years ago. Since that time he wrote a bestseller book and really created a movement in North America and around the world
around his book called Giftology.
(29:40):
His napkin to us 11 years ago from John Rulan, was what you appreciate appreciates. His sentiment was when you appreciate things in the world they appreciate in value, not just to you, but to everyone.
So with that he suddenly passed away
several months ago, and and to honor his legacy and his contribution
(30:03):
to the paper napkin wisdom community. We're asking every guest this year to end the episode with a shout out of appreciation to someone
around them. So who would you like to shout out today.
Darren Hickman (30:14):
It was. It's very nice, very nice.
I would like to shout out to my parents, my parents were artists.
and then they they moved into the marketing world and set up a business, and
I would like to express appreciation to them because they instilled in me a work ethic. But what they also gave me was an appreciation of creativity.
(30:43):
And that's what I do every day. Now, you know, I I combine this creative
gift that they've given me with a strategic business sense. And it's been invaluable.
It's been invaluable.
Govindh Jayaraman (31:00):
Yeah, I can see you. I can see the the depth of that emotion in your face right now.
Darren Hickman (31:05):
Thank you, Darren.
Thank you very much. I really appreciate being on.
Darren Hickman. Welcome to paper napkin wisdom excited to have you here today.
Darren Hickman (00:07):
Thank you very much for having me.
Govindh Jayaraman (00:09):
So you shared your paper napkin today, which was nearly all decisions are driven by emotions.
How you can leverage that in business. Why did you share that with me.
Darren Hickman (00:22):
It's something that I've been dealing with recently, actually, in my own business. And it's also something that I have to constantly remind myself
because of something I learned in a previous phase of my career.
I I started out working in the agriculture business, but then I moved into advertising and marketing.
(00:44):
and in advertising and marketing. What they teach you to do, as the most effective way to communicate with people is to to actually do a laddering exercise
and a laddering exercise is actually looking at
what you're trying to sell. It could be an idea it could be a product. And you're supposed to 1st define the product features or the service features.
(01:11):
But then, what you do is you go to the benefits, of course, right? So someone doesn't buy a product or a service because of what it does outside of their
person situation. They actually do
purchase because of what it can do for that? Right? So what is the benefit to them?
(01:32):
A lot of companies stop there, right? They and we have all seen product benefit marketing.
But what has happened recently and over time is.
businesses have become much more aware of the fact that it isn't the product that people are buying. It's actually
(01:53):
what it contributes to their life. And this actually again, getting to my topic isn't just about buying a product. It's actually about
interacting with everyone in your life
people in your personal life. If you're in school, it's your teachers, etc.
And it's all about actually creating some empathy with that person with that audience and figuring out what they really want out of the situation, and again getting back to a product situation. What that really ends up looking like is emotional benefits.
(02:30):
and a lot of us have been exposed to and read about the importance of storytelling right as a marketing tool. But storytelling also relates to people's personal lives. If you want someone to understand you and what you want. Often it involves telling a story. And again, that touches on the emotions and the emotional benefits
(02:57):
getting to my current situation with my current business. And that is card on guard. It's a new technology for pools and hot tubs. It uses sunlight to
control bacteria.
There's a lot of science behind it. It can get very technical.
even though I have that marketing background, where I,
(03:19):
basically on a day-to-day basis, was looking for again the emotional benefit. What is it really that the consumer wants?
I found myself
focusing so much on the technical details, trying to explain it, trying to actually convince people that this technology does work.
(03:43):
I stopped thinking about the emotional benefit.
When I realized that I was missing the boat.
I did start to think about, okay, what is it that people really want? Right, regardless of what I am selling as a
product feature and a benefit. What do they really want out of it? And that's when I really started to gain traction with my business.
Govindh Jayaraman (04:08):
Yeah, it's really interesting that we do. This. 1st of all, agriculture to advertising doesn't sound like an actual
lib. I'm sure there's a great story there. But before we go there, you know.
it's easy. When we're when we're innovating.
We're really focused on the product, aren't we? I mean product Price place promotion. That's the 4 P's of marketing that everybody's drilled into. Along with that that ladder. You know, one of the things we talk about is product product product. If you don't have a product, you have a nothing. So people focus on the product so much
(04:43):
and and the technical differentiation, I mean, we get really proud as innovators, entrepreneurs about what we've built. And and so we like to talk about it, don't we? I mean, and it's interesting that we that you fell into that?
How how did you, you know? Was it? Was it an obvious
(05:05):
moment where you went? Oh, geez! I've I've fallen into the trap, or did you get hit in the head because I tend to get hit in the head.
Darren Hickman (05:13):
Yeah. Well, I got hit in the head gradually. Actually, when I started to notice that people's eyes were glazing over, and that people were actually stopping me in the middle of my 15 min, you know, diatribe. And actually going back to the 1st minute of what I was talking about. I started to see that I was just kind of losing people, and and then they would just kind of walk away. Whether that was physically or I would just stop hearing from them over the phone or of the Internet
(05:43):
and after a while I realized that I'm not grabbing them early enough and and having them get excited enough to stick around to hear the last 14 min of what I want to say.
Govindh Jayaraman (05:57):
Right.
And and so for people listening car on guard is a
sort of a natural solution, combining solar energy with some technology to help keep your pool and hot tub clean and look, I've had pools my whole life, and one of the things we learn pool 101 is, the sun kills chlorine. So
(06:22):
everybody who has a pool
knows that the sun kills chlorine, and you're telling them that the sun is going to help you make chlorine, which everybody is going to be like. Well, what are you talking about? That's not possible. That doesn't happen right? So which is
for people listening. That's the natural lean away from the emotional side to to put down the doubting Thomas's and say, No, no, no, it's real, it's real. This is how it works. Right? Am I? Am I wrong? Am I missing something here.
Darren Hickman (06:53):
No, no, no, you're right. And and actually
coming up with a product that says you can reduce the amount of chlorine you're needing and using is actually challenging a long held belief that chlorine is the easiest, the cheapest, the most effective right, and the most widely accepted. All of those things are true.
(07:18):
which means that I have to strike a fine balance between talking about the product, the details, the technicalities like you said, I have to convince people that this product does work. Given that people
are thinking the opposite right. But then I have to use enough of the emotional appeal to get them excited and to stick with me, and actually to tell you a little bit about how the product works is.
(07:47):
You're right. The sun kills chlorine.
Yeah. But if you use less chlorine
and you're using something else that kills the bacteria.
the chlorine remains as what's called free chlorine, right? And it and it just sits in there. That's how I can say to people, reduce your chlorine.
(08:09):
even though the sun does kill some of it off. But the sun only kills a fraction of it off. So if you're using less chlorine.
then the sun will cool off less chlorine. Right? So again it gets confusing. It's a. It's a it's a fine tightrope between explaining the product details, the technicalities. And again going after that emotional appeal. Right? So
(08:34):
that's a lot.
Govindh Jayaraman (08:35):
The other part of it is, you're you're also fighting traditional channels of distribution in your in your world. In this particular industry, too right? Because.
Darren Hickman (08:42):
Yes.
Govindh Jayaraman (08:43):
And so how does emotion play into that? Because.
you know, the pool companies want you coming back all the time to buy more chlorine and more chemicals, and do the testing. And like this is, this is where they make their money right.
Darren Hickman (08:58):
Exactly my 1st product was based on this need to have an emotional appeal.
this is the latest product that came out with. It's a tube, and it looks like something you would use in your pool. But there's nothing sexy about it. There's nothing emotional about this right. I came out with this recently what I started with because I I really understood that you needed something emotional is, I came up with something cool. This is like the iphone of pool products. Right? We've won design awards, etc.
Govindh Jayaraman (09:32):
The shark fin on the top. So, people, it's like this oversized ipad with clearly some membrane in the middle, and at the top there's a shark fin, and because it's lobsided in its weight, clearly, the shark fin would stick up above the water right? I mean, so people who are listening.
(09:53):
You can just imagine this blue shark fin skimming the the bottom of your pool, the top of your pool. So yeah.
Darren Hickman (10:01):
So this is kind of how it is. So again, with my marketing background, I knew that I had to come out with something again because I'm challenging the chlorine market. I knew I knew I had to come out with something again like the iphone. It's sexy, aesthetically appealing. Ultimately, that's all emotional right? So I knew I had to do that. But the
(10:22):
the ironic thing is that I ended up in the beginning going after the professional market. I tried to sell into wholesalers retailers, and they look at this. And they say, Okay, that's really cool. But they immediately go back to. But I want to keep my chlorine sales. So I really wasn't succeeding.
Then I realized, you know what I'm going to sell it direct to consumer. The consumer appreciates it. The consumer doesn't care that chlorine sales are going down.
(10:53):
So that's why I created a whole marketing campaign. That, again, that is emotionally driven focused on the fin and card on guard actually is playing off of this fin right? And my tagline is on guard against bacteria, naturally. And I have some videos that show it moving through the water like a shark, because I needed to grab attention. I needed to get people excited about it. Wow! That looks really cool. And what's interesting is, even though I've come out with this tube.
(11:22):
which again seems very practical, it's much closer to the appearance of a real pool product.
Now that I'm going after consumers overwhelmingly, they're going for the fin. And why is that? Because it's cool, it's emotional. And and they they want to have it in their pool.
Govindh Jayaraman (11:43):
Right?
So early on when you. So I can just imagine, because I've been there
talking to somebody about the features and benefits and technical specifications, and how this is going to make your life 5% better. And people just
not really being interested in that.
(12:03):
How did you realign like? What's the process look like for you, I mean, and you come from a marketing advertising background. So maybe it was a little bit more natural. But what was the process that you did to get away from your baby, your creation?
To put your mind in the lens of the customer.
Darren Hickman (12:24):
I had to focus on what is the final advantage for the consumer in using this. So I basically had to flip the script. So in the beginning, I felt like I needed to explain and convince.
And because this is this is a very unique product. And it's product that that is hard for people to actually
(12:52):
wrap their head around and believe it's unplugged. No electricity, no equipment. You just drop it in and it works using sunlight. And people are like, Well, how is that possible? Right? So when I started to speak
in those terms, I would immediately run into obstacles. So I I basically had to at 1 point say, I'm gonna stop talking about the product, what it does, how it does it more specifically and focus on reduces.
(13:24):
Your need for chlorine by minimum 50% using only natural light. And they're and then and then they're like, Oh, well, wow, okay, so tell me more. Right. And then I focus on
what is valuable to them.
Drop in ease of use. Works for 12 months, doesn't emit any chemicals.
(13:46):
Again, it's flipping it. It's flipping it and starting with
looking at it from their point of view. What are the emotional benefits of those things? Well, it's easy, just like chlorine. It's cheap, just like chlorine. It saves you money, and it works for 12 months much longer than chlorine. So it's going to save you time. Right? So again at some point.
(14:08):
I just flipped it on its head and started speaking about it from their point of view. What would I want to hear if I was seeing this product for the 1st time.
Govindh Jayaraman (14:17):
And you didn't land on that right away, right like you probably iterated a whole lot, and it sounds like
you went customer direct. But it sounds like you were face to face to a lot of customers. How how did you manage that?
Darren Hickman (14:31):
Yeah, well, again, part of my career goes back to the skincare industry.
and I was selling organic skincare products to spas and hotels and resorts. So I had a lot of contacts in that kind of Spa which is heavily based on, you know, water right hot tubs and pools resorts. So I contacted them, and I had them try it out, and I had them give me feedback, and I had them ask questions, so that I understood what people thought was really important.
Govindh Jayaraman (15:05):
So you lean into your existing network from skincare.
Darren Hickman (15:08):
Yep.
Govindh Jayaraman (15:09):
In in the Spa world to get.
you know, real customer feedback. And I really think that this is really important.
A lot of tech companies. A lot of innovative companies don't find collaborative clients and collaborative clients are ones that are willing to try it out and really give you meaningful feedback. It's yeah. It's super important, isn't it?
Darren Hickman (15:33):
It's it's very important because there is no product development lifecycle that's completely smooth.
right? And so you need people to give you honest feedback, and you need people that won't be offended when something goes wrong. So, for example, when I was developing this tube version, I had 4 or 5
(15:56):
iterations of it, and a lot of failures. Not that the base technology was failing, but the substrate or something about it. You know the glue. Something about it was was failing, and and that was incredibly valuable
(16:17):
to get to a final product.
Govindh Jayaraman (16:19):
So
you said something interesting, and and I have a story in my own head about this, but you talked about it, and you gave an example of people who won't get offended when things go wrong.
Right. And and
this is a really critical thing in product development. And I think Simon Sinek talks about it and start with, why, right when you, when you start with, why you get the early adopters who are willing to collaborate with you to make your product better right? They're not going to abandon you
(16:49):
your 1st failure. This is this is a really important thing that I think a lot of us get wrong because we're not starting with the people that we align with.
We're we're pitching 1st and just going along with the pitchy people.
the people who fall for the pitch. Right?
(17:10):
So so you did it the other way. You did it with people who you deeply align with, who were going to forgive you for your misgivings early on, and give you meaningful feedback.
What did you do to incent them?
Take a chance on card on guard.
Darren Hickman (17:26):
Well, 1st of all, the the the promise of what it can do is incredibly valuable for people
right? So from the get go. Many of them were like, Yeah, I mean, if it does what you say it does, I'll give it a shot right?
The second reason is that a lot of people just want to help
(17:50):
right? And I think that's something that a lot of entrepreneurs forget.
And that is
just to ask, because people do want to help. And that's the basis for a lot of research.
right? A lot of research that even goes to random people. They know that there's a portion of the audience out there that will
fill out a survey just because they're asked, and they want to help, and they want to feel valuable
(18:17):
and valued.
Govindh Jayaraman (18:22):
Just because they're asked. That's really interesting, because you're not saying that there's an incentive beyond just the ask and their willingness to come forward, and I think that we sort of try to try this tomfoolery, this trickery where I'm gonna oh, fill out our survey and we'll give you an ipad. You're not getting real feedback. Then you're not getting people who want to help you.
(18:44):
When you do that, you're getting people who want to help them, aren't you?
Darren Hickman (18:48):
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
Govindh Jayaraman (18:50):
So so you focused on people who want to help you
and then and and aligned around what the potential benefit could be. If you got this right.
which would be great for them?
Yeah. And then they really were there to help you.
Darren Hickman (19:09):
Yes, yeah. And as a second phase, I went on Facebook
to my friends. And I said again, when I was
testing a prototype of the tube, I said, Hey, I'm testing this new prototype. Anyone want to give it a try, I'll send you a free product. The only thing they got out of it was something free to try. But what I was asking them actually to do was to kind of risk their existing pool and hot tub care routine. So there was a lot at stake for them
(19:41):
but it and it wasn't because they get a free thing, because this could have screwed up their pool and hot tub right? They wanted to help. They were like, Yeah, cool. That's great.
Govindh Jayaraman (19:51):
And you know, like, just just for people
listening again. If you haven't had a pool or hot tub
when you've got a system that works on your pool and hot tub. You like to maintain it, because that season is not as long as you think it is. People think, oh, people in California have a longer pool cycle than people. It's not that much longer. People are not in the pool. 12 months of the year in most places in North America? Certainly not where I am in Canada, but regardless of that pool, cycles are short, the maintenance regime that people follow
(20:28):
you get pretty committed to it because it works, and you get to use the pool, and if you don't get to use the pool it can be weeks before you restore the balance. Right? So this is. This is not low stakes poker here.
Darren Hickman (20:41):
Well in in in a bit of an odd way. This touches on the issue of getting emotional versus technical, because what my product promises is that you don't have to change anything that you're currently doing with your pool.
You just use less chlorine because what most people don't realize is almost all systems out there require chlorine as residual. It's called a residual like a backup. Right now. A lot of them promise that you can reduce your amount of chlorine dramatically, but you need it as a backup.
(21:17):
And so what I was telling people. And again, this gets to the emotional pitch which is
built into this product from the beginning. I knew that if I had to tell people
switch out what you're doing and use this, I would
gain very little traction. So I had to come up with something that said, I'm going to work with your existing system. You're still going to get a good free chlorine, etc. So, anyway.
Govindh Jayaraman (21:49):
No, I think it's really important, and it shouldn't be. It shouldn't be overlooked. So number one, you went out for people who just wanted to help number 2. You went out to your Facebook friends and said, Hey, who wants to give this a shot?
And then was there a 3rd step? What came after that?
Darren Hickman (22:05):
You know, at every stage of a business at some point you gotta roll the dice right? You just cannot keep testing and testing and testing, especially when it comes to water.
It's so difficult it's so complicated to manage water, you know. The the dog could jump in the pool. Heavy rainfall, whatever that can mess up the chemistry. So at some point.
Govindh Jayaraman (22:32):
Kid comes over, and peas in the pool like.
Darren Hickman (22:34):
Yeah, yeah, big weekend party, and the beer is flowing and the sweat is rolling and all that stuff. So at some point you just have to. And I know this is said in many different places. At some point you just have to roll the dice, get it in the marketplace collect that feedback right? Which is very risky, right? Because you're actually you're out there, and it's public. So
(23:01):
But you gotta do it.
Govindh Jayaraman (23:02):
Yeah, so that's.
Darren Hickman (23:04):
That's really my 3rd phase.
Govindh Jayaraman (23:05):
So your 3rd phase is, roll the dice and I'm assuming step 4 is iterate, iterate, iterate, iterate, and there's probably an iteration cycle in between each one of those stages, too. Right?
Darren Hickman (23:15):
There is. There's always some tweaking. Yes.
Govindh Jayaraman (23:18):
Yeah. So a lot of people that invent a product
create a product like you do
have a hard time getting off the podium about how brilliant
the product was which is really like. Look how smart I am for creating this.
Darren Hickman (23:38):
Right, right, yeah.
Govindh Jayaraman (23:40):
I'm not getting that vibe from you. Why.
Darren Hickman (23:43):
Well, after so many years of developing and testing things going wrong, it's incredibly humbling, right? So I think that you know the people that are on the podium and selling selling are are hiding some things right. And they're they're trying to cover up what it really means to launch a business and a product. And what it really means is.
(24:12):
you've got some failures you've got, you know, long periods of time when nothing is really happening. And but again, if you believe in your product and you stick with it, you can get to a point where you are confident but humble at the same time
and and again I get back to this product. Technicalities, benefits, features, and the emotional pitch.
(24:36):
You got to stay in touch with the emotional pitch, because that's what the market and your audience is thinking and feeling. And if you're focused too much on your podium speech about your product, then you're going to have blinders on, and you got to keep reminding yourself, why do people really want this thing? And is this really delivering what they want.
Govindh Jayaraman (24:59):
Hmm!
There's a difference between failures and fake negatives right and and fake negatives. I so
my the experience that I I laughed about when thinking about
people who would be offended when things don't go wrong. Is, I sold a renewable fuel product for many years, and became very big at doing it. We were one of the 1st ones selling it to fleets and stuff like that. And I can remember early on
(25:25):
that someone used our renewable fuel, which was biodiesel, mixed in with a little bit of Diesel fuel.
And
they they said to me that we have a really big problem. You need to come down to the yard right away, so I had to travel. I got there, got out.
and they allege that the renewable fuel was causing flat tires in the vehicles.
(25:48):
and because they had a higher incidence of flat tires since they switched.
And you know
the the fleet manager was convinced that this was the case. Obviously it wasn't. And you know, somebody eventually pointed out that they changed the adhesive that they were using at about the same time, and it was likely the adhesive and not anything to do with the fuel. But that's a fake negative. Right? And thankfully
(26:16):
the the buyer, the fleet manager.
was not going to fall for the face negative, false, negative, but they had to convince their maiden supervisor
that had nothing to do with the fuel.
So there's a difference between failure and a fake negative. And you really need product champions. You really need champions to help you through those things. Don't you.
Darren Hickman (26:37):
Yeah, you do. And speaking of fake negatives, the the water industry is full, no pun intended full of it. And again, because it is so complicated.
Govindh Jayaraman (26:49):
Could say, it's a wash with fake negatives.
Darren Hickman (26:52):
It's a it's a wash with big negatives. Yeah. So I am always prepared and on my toes to respond again humbly, right? Because I don't know exactly what is going on with their pool or hot tub, but
I know that there's a hundred different possibilities, and I have to be sure that I am responding.
(27:16):
but also understanding that it's very possible. It's not my product that's not working. It's something else that they are doing.
And again, there's alkalinity. There's Ph, there's calcium hardness. There's all this stuff
that could be wrong. And and I I have to navigate that. Yeah, like, I would guess a lot of companies.
(27:38):
Yeah.
Govindh Jayaraman (27:40):
But but the critical point that I'm making is that when you're dealing with an established industry, you really have to get humble about the approach there, because you can't just say
you can't come in. Pointing a finger.
Darren Hickman (27:54):
But you have to.
Govindh Jayaraman (27:54):
Go in, very curious to distinguish between the failure which could exist and the fake negative, which is not likely.
Darren Hickman (28:04):
No. And and again that touches on this emotional pitch.
if a company gets defensive all of the time and starts pointing the finger. That's the opposite of empathizing with the audience. Right? It's the opposite of taking a humble approach.
(28:25):
And I think everyone has experienced both of those cases, you know, with any kind of a service or a product, whether it's going into a restaurant, and they complain about you know how well done the meat is, and the server says, well, that's what you asked for. Right? I mean.
that is the opposite of an emotional approach. Right? So again, I think the effectiveness in business is based on having
(28:53):
empathy and being clear on the emotional need of the audience.
Govindh Jayaraman (29:01):
Can you fake caring about your client?
Darren Hickman (29:05):
You can to an extent, but
it will reveal itself very quickly.
Yeah. So it's better just to care about your client. Right?
It's yeah, it's better. It's easier and it's more stress free. Yeah.
Govindh Jayaraman (29:18):
That's correct.
Darren. We've been ending every episode this season with a shout out to a former paper and napkin wisdom guest. He was on the show 11 years ago. Since that time he wrote a bestseller book and really created a movement in North America and around the world
around his book called Giftology.
(29:40):
His napkin to us 11 years ago from John Rulan, was what you appreciate appreciates. His sentiment was when you appreciate things in the world they appreciate in value, not just to you, but to everyone.
So with that he suddenly passed away
several months ago, and and to honor his legacy and his contribution
(30:03):
to the paper napkin wisdom community. We're asking every guest this year to end the episode with a shout out of appreciation to someone
around them. So who would you like to shout out today.
Darren Hickman (30:14):
It was. It's very nice, very nice.
I would like to shout out to my parents, my parents were artists.
and then they they moved into the marketing world and set up a business, and
I would like to express appreciation to them because they instilled in me a work ethic. But what they also gave me was an appreciation of creativity.
(30:43):
And that's what I do every day. Now, you know, I I combine this creative
gift that they've given me with a strategic business sense. And it's been invaluable.
It's been invaluable.
Govindh Jayaraman (31:00):
Yeah, I can see you. I can see the the depth of that emotion in your face right now.
Darren Hickman (31:05):
Thank you, Darren.
Thank you very much. I really appreciate being on.
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