July 10, 2025 • 42 mins
Marc Dann is no stranger to high-stakes leadership. As a former Ohio Attorney General and now a tireless advocate for consumer rights, Marc brings a seasoned perspective on accountability, resilience, and purpose. In Episode 267 of Paper Napkin Wisdom, he shares a deceptively simple, yet profoundly powerful mantra that has anchored his professional and personal comeback: “Get up. Get dressed. Go to work. People are counting on you.”
These aren’t just words Marc scribbled for effect—they are a lived commitment forged in adversity. After resigning from public office in 2008, Marc found himself in a moment of deep uncertainty. But instead of retreating, he focused on rebuilding.
“When I read the pitch to submit for this, I immediately thought of a situation that happened right after I resigned office,” Marc explains in the episode. “I had clients who still needed me. I had to show up.”
And show up he did. Marc didn’t just reenter the legal profession—he doubled down on his mission to protect and serve. Today, he represents clients in housing disputes, foreclosure defense, and consumer protection cases. His firm stands as a beacon for people navigating hard times—because Marc knows what it’s like to be in that place.
Showing Up Even When It’s Hard
Marc’s napkin is a call to action, especially for leaders. In times of transition, scandal, or failure, it’s tempting to stay hidden. But Marc reminds us that leadership isn’t about perfection—it’s about presence.
“Getting dressed wasn’t about the suit. It was about stepping into responsibility,” he says.
This episode isn’t about politics. It’s about leadership that gets up anyway. It’s about not letting the worst day define your every day. It’s about remembering that your team, your family, your community—they’re counting on you. And your job is to show up for them, even if it’s uncomfortable.
Marc also talks about how this mindset continues to guide his team’s work. They represent individuals going through some of the most stressful experiences of their lives. For his team, showing up isn’t optional—it’s the foundation of trust.
5 Key Takeaways from Episode 267 – Marc Dann
1. Your Presence Matters More Than Your Perfection No matter how messy life gets, showing up with integrity can still have massive impact. 💡 Take Action: Identify one situation where you’ve been avoiding engagement—show up intentionally this week.
2. Leadership Is a Daily Decision Marc reminds us that leadership is not a title, but a commitment you make every single day. 💡 Take Action: Start your morning with a grounding phrase or mantra—Marc’s napkin is a great place to begin.
3. Purpose Can Be Reclaimed After Failure Failure isn’t the end. Marc’s comeback story proves you can re-earn trust by taking responsibility and doing the work. 💡 Take Action: Reflect on a past setback—how could it become a launching point for deeper purpose?
4. People Are Always Counting on You, Even If You Forget Whether you're a CEO, a parent, or a team leader—your consistency matters. 💡 Take Action: Send one message of gratitude or encouragem
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Govindh Jayaraman (00:02):
Mark Dan, welcome to paper napkin wisdom. I'm excited to have you here today.
Marc Dann (00:07):
Well, thank you for having me. I appreciate the opportunity to to participate.
Govindh Jayaraman (00:12):
So you shared a great paper napkin, which is a
very personal one, I think, and it says, Get up, get dressed, and go to work. People are counting on you.
Why did you share that with me?
Marc Dann (00:27):
Well, when I read the pitch to submit for this, I immediately thought of a situation that happened right after I resigned office as Ohio Attorney General.
Back in May of 2,008, I was a practicing lawyer up until I became Attorney General, and so, and I represent a lot of clients in the community, including a guy that had a series of duis, who happened to be a friend of my kids or a parent of one of my of my kids
(01:04):
friends, and so I got to know him socially as well as as well as professionally, and he had a really difficult hard life in his and he never really kind of was able to get back on track. In fact, he died not long after.
and I went to. So back. Then people read newspapers on newsprint, and I had a place where I religiously went every morning to pick up my 5 or 6 newspapers a day that I would read, which I have a habit that I didn't think I didn't. You know I didn't realize I didn't need to have anymore at that point in time. So I went to pick up my papers and my sweats and hoodie.
(01:48):
and no offense today. But and with my hair on on, you know, uncombed and I walked into the place, and he was there in his sweats, and Hoodie buying a beer at 7 in the morning.
and I went home after that, and I went. I literally took a shower, shaved, got dressed professionally, and went to, and spent the day in a concentrated way, trying to figure out what I was going to do next. I left office with no plan. It was trying to take the pressure a horrible pressure off my family.
(02:31):
And that you know that I caused a situation where we had, you know, people at the end of our driveway reporters at the end of our driveway. For an extended period of time there was nowhere. I went
where I wasn't. I wasn't questioned about about what was going on, and and I finally reached the conclusion that it was. It made the most sense for my family and and my and my ex-wife
(02:58):
who? Who is now one of my best friends, but to to resign and to take that pressure off of them?
Govindh Jayaraman (03:09):
Yeah. So let's let's let's dial this back a little bit, because I think people might not know the context. And so, mark you, were Ohio State Attorney General at the time.
Marc Dann (03:21):
That's right.
Govindh Jayaraman (03:21):
And you resigned amidst some personal pressure around.
Let's call it what it was. It was a scandal, right? There was a scandal in your personal life related to an affair with with a member of your staff. Is that correct?
Marc Dann (03:38):
That's correct.
Govindh Jayaraman (03:39):
Yeah. And and as a result of that pressure.
you you know, you pulled the chute you got out of that environment to take the pressure off of your family, and of course, off of yourself as well.
That must have felt like look! There was a scandal. There was a decision. There was a choice there was, there was, there were challenges there. There was a mistake.
(04:03):
but in that moment it must have felt really lonely.
Marc Dann (04:09):
Oh, incredibly so. yes, I mean I went from. You know, my phone constantly ringing
to. I don't think I received a single phone call
that day. When you go through something like this, you find out who your real friends are and many people who I've been in politics by that point, by almost 30 years, both as a staffer, as a volunteer, as an activist, as a contributor, as a fundraiser, as a State Senator, and then, as Attorney General, and many of the people who I thought were my dearest friends.
(04:45):
turned out not to be my not to be my friends. At that time. Since then I've really made a conscious effort.
whatever the circumstances, to reach out to anybody that I know, that's going through something like that, because I know how I remember every single call that I did get over that period of time. I remember every single note that I received
(05:08):
and there weren't many of them. So it wasn't hard to to remember that and I found that that's been a that's been a I'm Jewish, but I find that to be a so we call the Mitzvah.
That that I could. I could share with people based on my experience, and to say, Look, I have no judgment. I am unrelated to the situation that you're in. I'm a lawyer, so we can have attorney client privilege, which I'm happy to share with you. But if you just need somebody to talk, to call me
(05:40):
and provide my phone number, there were other Ags over time that have resigned lawyers who have been disciplined friends that have been involved in criminal activity of people that I've known along the way, and I feel good about that. That's 1 of the things I've tried to do to try to make something positive out of what I went through
(06:03):
a little more context, though, on the resignation. So while the personal, while the affair was a absolute, you know, horrible thing, and very unfair and unkind to my wife and to my family, and to this really terrific young woman who went through this with me
to some extent it was it was, only it was. The bigger problem was that when I got elected Attorney General I didn't expect to get elected.
(06:33):
There was also a Democratic Governor elected at the same time, so there was a real strain on finding talent to run
a big. The Attorney General's office has 1,500 employees. It's a very big operation, 500 lawyers and to find managers. I was competing with the Governor, who had much better jobs to to offer, and the other Democrats won all but one of the row offices so competing with all of them as well, and I ended up hiring a couple of my friends
(07:07):
into into jobs where they were were over their head. And and they made some terrible decisions that were in part sexual harassment. Sexual harassment related.
So the scandal was really that. But in the course of that they were my friends, of course, knew, because I had shared a place to stay with them. I was only in Columbus, you know, very rarely overnight I would commute back and forth because my kids were young to Youngstown, which is about 2 and a half hour. Drive as often as I could so, but on the few nights I was there I stayed with them, and they were aware of what was going on with her, and so, when
(07:45):
they became the subject of of of me, having to ask them to resign or fire them. It was, you know, I knew, that this other issue would come out
and so we made the decision. I made the decision that I needed to. I needed to to come clean 1st with my family.
and then with the with, you know, with the community, and I and I took a real real stab at it. I did. The. It's kind of a cliche now, but I did the, you know, answer questions till they dropped news conference for 2 and a half hours, filled in questions from reporters who were my dear friends, and one of the huge problems was, I was A. I came in as a fiery reformer into office. My brand was truth.
(08:31):
and so the people who who had helped me get there, the reporters that relied on my honesty to expose serious corruption in State government that got me in the position to be elected when I stopped telling them the truth because I couldn't. That was very. That became a bit almost exacerbated everybody's vitriol and determination to
(08:59):
to show me that I you know that I deserve and I deserved it. I mean, there's no question about it. Did that flew to 3 editorial boards right after that made my pitch, and it didn't work. Didn't take sometimes that works sometimes it didn't. You know. Interesting in the context of politics in 2025,
(09:21):
I think what happened would have I would have. I probably could have sustained it. I probably could have sustained it. Then I had a thought that I could fire all the political people in the office because they were they were the ones the 1st ones to kind of turn on me when when things went wrong, because the career lawyers and the career law enforcement folks that work for the Ohio Attorney General were fabulous, and and frankly, there was no need for the political layer.
(09:48):
And simply just do my job and run the office and but for the family considerations. That's probably something I would have done.
But you know it it even with even with resigning the Ptsd. That my my kids still.
you know, suffer from from all that is significant. I finally got them voting again. So I'm happy about that. I feel I'm very lucky. I have 3 adult children, 2 grandchildren, and I have, I think, as good a relationship with them as anybody I know, and I love that. I mean that is the highlight in the most important thing in my life other than my marriage.
(10:32):
And so so I'm fortunate that I was able to weather through that. But that took a minute.
Govindh Jayaraman (10:39):
Minutes. So, Mark, you know, I want to thank you for giving people the context.
Because I think it's important that people understand it.
And and what I want people to understand is that you know, while
they may not relate, you know, a lot of people listening may not relate to the situation
(11:03):
and the conditions around.
the mistake that you made, and the repercussions that you had to face, and the and the way in which you faced them. We've all been in situations where
things like we've made a mistake, a big freaking mistake.
(11:23):
and had to do something about it.
And I think this is the this is so. The uncomfortable truth about it for a lot of us is in the discomfort we have a choice to grow
or settle right. I mean, when life gets.
Marc Dann (11:39):
Or or become angry, become angry, and and.
Govindh Jayaraman (11:42):
And blame and blame everybody else. Blame the people you put in place for taking you down when you did the right thing.
That's not what I heard from you. What I heard is that you made you made a decision, and then you had to own up to it, and
and you did it in a way that, as crappy as it was given the number of alternatives in front of you.
(12:05):
you felt it might be better for your family
if you made other steps like resigning and stepping out of it.
So this humiliation is public because it's
on TV. It's everywhere. But some of us face a quieter humiliation around some of the decisions we make. Only a few people know about it right?
(12:28):
And I'm sure you've made some of those mistakes, too. So, having made the the quiet ones, and this really big one.
is there a difference between them and how you feel like I mean, it's, I think this is the I think it's a question right? I mean, I'm interested. What do you think about that?
Marc Dann (12:48):
You know. So since I've been focusing on these things that I've had this experience, and so I'm informed by I don't think it was something that me, as a young, ambitious politician and lawyer, aggressive, ambitious lawyer and politician, thought much about. Before this all happened. I thought a lot about it obviously since 2,008,
(13:13):
and I actually saw there was actually a story or a column in the New York Times yesterday that I shared with my wife, and one of the things I wish I knew from an 85 year old saying things I wish I knew one of them was.
people aren't thinking about you.
(13:34):
In the way
and the way that you think that they're thinking about, even even for me, in the public setting.
Govindh Jayaraman (13:41):
And I can't tell you the number of times that I've.
Marc Dann (13:44):
Attributed something that has gone wrong to the fact that somebody, you know, realized who I was and what my background was, and unfortunate because I represent individuals and consumers. I don't represent companies where this becomes a daily exercise, but where it just wasn't true. I mean, it just wasn't on anybody's mind at all, and I've learned later, and I'm sure there are many instances where I never learned that it wasn't on their mind that I spent
(14:13):
hours and time beating, beating myself up
about it, because people aren't necessarily thinking about me in the way that I think they're thinking about me, and and that applies to all of us.
Govindh Jayaraman (14:25):
Right.
So
you're facing this. And and I asked you this question about feeling alone because you you brought up. And I think it's really important that people understand this. You brought up the possibly private humiliation that your friend was facing. It was dealing with an addiction problem.
(14:46):
and
you related to it in your very public situation. And this is what I mean, that the private humiliation, the loneliness that people feel.
I think, is very much aligned with, and similar
to the public one that you felt in a lot of ways, because people have this feeling that everybody knows and everybody can feel this and and all that kind of stuff.
(15:10):
and and so let's get back to your your napkin.
Marc Dann (15:15):
Yeah.
Govindh Jayaraman (15:15):
It sounds like a non-negotiable right. Get up, get dressed, and go to work
like those are 3 serious, non-negotiables. And you started with those very simple basic steps.
And and was that what you felt you needed to to find yourself again.
Marc Dann (15:35):
Absolutely. I mean, I I needed. I needed that. I wasn't. I'm not a rester. I'm not a sitter. I'm not a I'm not somebody that I'm a doer in every. I always have been and remain so. I mean, I start every day still at 4 30 in the morning, go to the gym.
work for a few hours, have breakfast, and then go to the office and and work until late, you know, later into the evening. Fortunately, I've always been able to do something that I love, so I know that everybody doesn't have that
(16:03):
that advantage to be able to do. But and I. And and in my later years I've become much more focused on building friendships and relationships and outside interests. I've been, I've taken up improv
which has been incredible fun. And I've learned a ton more about myself in that process, and I love that I'm not terribly. I don't think I'll be. You'll be seeing me on Saturday night. Live anytime soon but but I get through the performances in a way that, surprisingly, for all my public
(16:35):
speaking. Experience is horrifying the worst fear. That I probably ever even even going through this. The fear on getting on stage without having a script is is something people, you know, can learn a lot from, anyway. But but yeah, so I've always been. And so it wouldn't have been me to sit and watch. Now. I watched plenty of reruns of law and order
(17:00):
in the time that because at a certain point there's only so many calls you can make. There's only so many emails you can send and resumes that you can send, especially when people aren't really responding to you. And and so, you know. So I did. I did spend, you know, much more time, I think. I you know there are 400 and some episodes of law and order. I think I don't know if they have that in Canada. But it's yeah. It's, you know. I watched an awful lot of them, for whatever reason. That was what that was. What you know was a comfort
(17:30):
to me in the process. And and then I just and I but I went out and I was well, I started taking. I started taking pro bono cases on.
I went to the local legal aid. So one of the things I'd done as Attorney General, as you remember, 2,008 was the beginning of the financial crisis, and so I worked with the Chief Justice of the Ohio Supreme Court and the Ohio State Bar Association
(17:55):
to establish what turned out to be the largest volunteer lawyer mobilization in the country
to help people who are facing foreclosure in Ohio. It's a judicial foreclosure process. So you're entitled to do a new issue that the people shouldn't take for granted anymore. But you're entitled to due process of law and a hearing. And so I went to the to the program that I started, and I asked for a dozen files to work on, and they gave them to me, and I
(18:26):
got to start. So I went to work. I and I was fortunate at the time to become successful for
a number of those folks. I don't think there was. I think there was one out of the 12 that ended up losing their house. We were able to find help, find solutions for them, which was, which was, you know, helpful.
and I was, you know, it gave me something to do. I hadn't practiced law at that level in a very long time, so it was very humbling.
(18:51):
But at the same time it was very, and I did it. So I was living at the time in Youngstown, Ohio, which is where my ex-wife's family was from, and where we we raised our children
up until then, and I knew that there were 2 places that I couldn't, that I wouldn't even be able to do something like that. And one was Columbus, which is the State capital, and the other was Youngstown, where they have a very high density of news coverage. The highest rated shows in Youngstown are the news and talk radio and TV shows. And so I was very, very well known there. So I actually went to the Cleveland legal
(19:27):
wait.
because I realized if I'm going to have a law practice, it would. And I grew up in Cleveland. So what there was connection there. But people were, you know, people were less focused on state government and less focused on me.
And and so that's where I that's where that's where I went.
Govindh Jayaraman (19:43):
I so so one of my beliefs. So I I've had massive
setbacks, and and when I've had them my favorite brain candy was to get on a stationary bike and watch all the Marvel and Star Wars Library. There's
(20:05):
tons of great popcorn there, not popcorn for me. I was on the bike when I was doing it. But it's amazing that some of us find those kinds of things.
and I also feel like the best way when you've got no momentum in your life, and you can't get any. I found for me. A great way to build it is to give it away. And you did that. You know you did that.
Marc Dann (20:28):
That's right.
Govindh Jayaraman (20:28):
And you found a way to give it away on purpose by going to Cleveland. And it's interesting that you said that the doing the work itself
was humbling.
Marc Dann (20:40):
Right.
Govindh Jayaraman (20:41):
But it filled your bucket, didn't it?
Marc Dann (20:43):
Right. Oh, for sure! And it was. It was also gratifying in many ways. I mean, it was.
Govindh Jayaraman (20:49):
They can be very gratifying.
Marc Dann (20:51):
Yeah, right? Right? I mean, I didn't know how to do electronic filing, because I had always had people that did that. I didn't know how to do, and that was newish at the time. And if it wasn't electronically filed, I had to go see the clerk of courts and face people that I thought might know me because they were all politically appointed, and it was in Cuyahoga County. Cleveland is a very Democratic county, and so those were democratic activists that were across that counter
(21:16):
when I when I showed up with the with the pleadings in court and I had to make the copies, and and you know.
fortunately I'm in. My mom made me take typing in in middle school, and so so I could. I could. I was good on a computer. I'm too good. Actually, because a lot of the a lot of the evidence of what happened with with with the
(21:37):
the relationship was in writing
a lot of emails and a lot of and a lot of text messages. And I think in again, if you think back to 2,008. We didn't really understand the kind of permanency of of those communications.
and at the time most people did. I didn't. Certainly I certainly learned that the hard way. But so I was able to use computers and adapt adapt that way. But yeah, it was. It was. But no, I'm so glad. I'm so glad that it happened, and it really led to everything else that that has happened since then.
Govindh Jayaraman (22:11):
So this is, people are counting on you part.
What people are you talking about?
Marc Dann (22:17):
Well, my kids, so my son was a was a football player in a high school. I think he was a sophomore.
My daughter was in middle school. My oldest daughter was actually had. She was my driver during the campaign, and I mean so if you're if you're a father of daughters, which I know you are right. After she graduated from college I spent a year in the car with my daughter.
(22:46):
which was for me the greatest thing in the world, probably the most worst nightmare of hers. But it was the greatest thing in the world for me, because in a campaign where there's all kinds of stress and ups and downs, having somebody who I couldn't fire and couldn't fire me was really important in that context, and she and I just had this
(23:10):
bonding experience. So she had then gone to work for the Secretary of State.
after we got after I got elected over my objection because there was a you know there was a look to it that wasn't wasn't ideal but the Secretary of State insisted. and and and and and me, I had this incredible skill. She she was an artist, and graduated from Michigan University, Michigan School of Design, and then
(23:37):
later from from a graduate level program in that. But she. So she went to work doing what she was good at. And so so she was working in State government when this happened.
and so she needed support. And and because, you know, she wasn't going to work in State government for forever in that under those circumstances, and although I think she could have but again, you know, she didn't know what people were thinking as opposed to, you know, same same scenario for her. And then, my my son, we had. We had a plan I Googled.
(24:12):
and this is something I spent a lot of time on also as part of my get up and go to work part. But it's also people are counting on you, my son. We googled good school, bad football.
and and we and we settled on a few schools where we thought his level of of play
that it would give him an edge in getting getting in later on. I guess you know people there was a scandal here where some guy got in trouble, for like doing this for money. I was doing it for free, not just for him, but for his friends as well. And so he ended up playing football at Georgetown, which is a great school, and I was very proud about that, but he was in his high school football, so we were focusing on his.
(24:54):
You know. He had expensive. He was not a natural athlete, so we had to pay for a running coach. I didn't know such a thing existed. We had to make sure that the kids had what they needed
so that their life wasn't disrupted any more than than it would have been so to be able to make sure that they were able to participate in activities. And while my, my ex-wife was working and had a small business
(25:19):
that we had to start because we didn't really realize. So so when I got elected, I wasn't really expecting to win, I ran because I thought it'd be a great experience for me and for the kids
to see government and politics up close. And I was kind of the last Democrat over the line to win the election. And this is a true story. I've sat in the living room that night with my father-in-law, who wouldn't let me move out of the house because he didn't believe that the results that were coming in were accurate, and my wife and the kids, and at that time every member of the Senate.
(25:54):
a copy of the Ohio revised Code, and so at some point my wife asked me, Well, what does this job pay?
And I said, I have no idea.
And so I went and got pulled out the revised code, and and for lawyers will know the pocket part where the updates were kept, and it turned out the job paid $109,000 a year. Now that's a great salary. That's an honor that's a fair. But
(26:20):
the combination of my State Senate salary and my part-time law practice yielded a lot more income
than than that. And so my ex, who was kind of as a lark selling fiesta, wear pottery over the Internet, the new Internet ebay and those kinds of things. She ended up ramping that business up to make that to help make up the difference. And so so she and she became after Macy's the second largest online
(26:51):
retailer of Fiestawa for a while. If you're going to sell something online about the worst thing you can do is something that weighs as much as pottery. And so we spent a lot of time. But we had a where, you know, she had built a warehouse, and we so there was that work to do. But but you know we still lost my salary all at once, and so I had to, you know, cash in my pension.
(27:16):
I had to go to the bank and humbly ask for forbearance on my mortgage, which is something, by the way that now I can relate to many of my clients have had to go through the same thing.
and so I'm able to share that experience with them, and then we went, you know, and then I went. But I had to meet those obligations at first, st you know, and take care of the kids and make sure that they got what they needed, and one was done with college. But 2 were just starting, just getting ready to go, and so I was fortunate that I was ultimately able to, you know, to make sure that everybody got their education and
(27:49):
and pass, you know, hand them off to the none of them, fortunately or unfortunately for me, decided to go to law school, which I'd really hoped I would have been happy to pay for that probably more happy than to pay for undergrad, but none of them decided to follow in those footsteps. But yeah, so that was the people to take care of food had to get on the table. You know all of that.
Govindh Jayaraman (28:13):
One of the things that I think is really interesting about your story, because when we
it feels like you took all of
the learnings all of the pain, all of the isolation, and have paid that forward in the work you're doing now for others, having to go through the forbearance exercise with the banks, using that to help people both in legal aid in Cleveland to get started, but also in your consumer work that you do today when you, when you talk about
(28:47):
you know being that person that people can call
it's not that you're you're giving forgiveness to people, but you're reminding people that they're not alone, and there's nothing nothing wrong with that. There's a there's a humanity. So you've taken. I believe that if we are.
if we are truly going to learn from the hard things that happen to us, we must incorporate them in the gift that we give back in the, in, the, in the paying forward to society, to the community in some kind of way, and it feels like you've been
(29:20):
deliberate about that. It feels like you've been intentional about that. And and in so doing, you know, many years later, now, you've built a pretty successful practice. You've you know, you've been able to
start differently, not start new, but start differently right.
Marc Dann (29:39):
Right, and I've been fortunate, you know, and and really I mean it is. It is. It is all informed by by what I've been through, and the clients that I was able to. A lawyer friend once told me, long before this all happened, that you know, if you to build a law practice, find somebody something nobody wants to do and do it well.
And so that was ringing in my head. He was one of the friends that stayed my friend after just a wonderful mentor that I had. He was actually owned a plane, and he was our pilot during the campaign. Ohio has an airport in all 88 counties and so, and part of my effort to be home as frequently as possible for the family.
(30:17):
you know, and Mike was trying to keep up his pilots hours. We had a great. It was a great combination, so we spent a ton of time like with my daughter. We spent a ton of time together, he and I did.
and he actually came to work for me in the Ag's office, and he left when I left.
because he didn't want to be there, and he was, and had the means to be able to do that. And
oh, my God! He was just so so supportive of everything I did and tried to do and and but for but but for Mike Harshman, I don't know
Govindh Jayaraman (30:47):
Yeah.
Marc Dann (30:48):
Yeah, I don't know.
Govindh Jayaraman (30:50):
So I want to recognize the emotion that you're showing right now, because, you know, I've been there, and and I think that
when you've when you've been alone, when you've been, when you've been in those dark places.
Marc Dann (31:06):
It doesn't take much.
Govindh Jayaraman (31:09):
To give you hope usually just takes one person, and
I think that it's easy for people to to rebuild themselves and not be that person and look down at the person that's in trouble and disassociate from it, because that's so painful. You know. I think I think a lot of times for a lot of people. They look back at that, and they see the pain, and they don't see
(31:35):
that they can help. They don't see that
they don't relate. They don't want to relate to it anymore. And and I think it's harder
to reach back and be there and and be that person.
I believe that we are our best when we are for others, what we need for ourselves.
And you needed someone like you.
(31:59):
And it sounds like you're trying to be that for other people. Am I wrong?
Marc Dann (32:03):
I, you know. I hope so. I mean, I really do. And I'm you know, again. I've been also, you know, we talk in my office about doing well and doing good at the same time. And and it's not, you know, it's not hard as a lawyer that's hard to do. Really it's hard to master. Many lawyers are very unhappy in their lives
and in their work, and we only represent people that we feel like we want to represent. We have 600 clients at any given time, so we can fire any client that we want to. If they mistreat a staff member or or somebody is somebody who, we don't, you know, no longer believe in their cause?
(32:38):
So I mean, I'm so lucky to be in. Be in that in that position. And so I get to do that professionally. And I, you know, fortunately found a way to get paid for it, too, which is which is great, and and to share that I mean, we have. Look, you know, I have probably more lawyers working with me than other lawyers would do in this in this situation, because I want to make sure their clients needs are met, and I take less of a salary and a profit than I think others and contemporaries.
(33:04):
Do because I you know we still do 25 pro bono cases at a time in our office as well. I mean, because again, it's like it's like you and the and and the playoff beard. I don't. Wanna I don't. I'm superstitious. If I stop taking pro bono work.
you know. Maybe maybe the sky will fall again, and I hope it doesn't. But it could. And that's the other thing you have to know, and anytime that something could happen. There could be a situation with a client. There could be a situation, and I have lots of just like when I was Attorney General. I have dozens of people signing my name to things that some of which I don't necessarily directly see. And so, you know, for reasons out of my control that things could. Things could go badly quickly.
Govindh Jayaraman (33:50):
So.
Mark, I want. I want to. I want to thank you for reaching out in the way that you did because
I mean, I think
I think this is. It's an appropriate conversation that we don't have often enough, and I want to commend you for being so transparent with me.
(34:11):
and I want.
Marc Dann (34:12):
And I commend you for focusing on these types of things. I don't know how much of the you know of your guests, but I'm sure there's a lot of people that are. Their wisdom was born of, of of of
distress.
Govindh Jayaraman (34:27):
Yeah, I mean, we. We love to talk about the successful lessons, but there's far more to learn
from the things that don't work out, and those are equally powerful if we let them be. And if we give people the space to learn and look, the outcome is, you've got a beautiful relationship with your 3 children, grandchildren you've got. You've recovered, and have a beautiful relationship with your ex-wife, who.
Marc Dann (34:52):
Yeah, we spend hours together, I'm sure.
Govindh Jayaraman (34:54):
That wasn't a straight path, either.
Marc Dann (34:55):
Even even her, her husband and my wife. And we all spend holidays together every year.
Govindh Jayaraman (35:00):
How wonderful, how wonderful! And so so there is!
There is absolutely. If you're listening right now, there are lots of places to reach out for hope. But Mark's story should be one of them. One of the things we've been doing this year Mark, is to honor a former friend of the show a guest on the show in our 1st season. His name was John Rulan. He wrote a great book that transformed
(35:26):
his little corner of the universe with a book called Giftology, became a bestseller.
but before that he was on our on paper napkin wisdom and his napkin was what you appreciate appreciates, and his point was love on. Give gratitude on to people around you, because they will appreciate in value not only to you, but to the world. So to honor him. He suddenly passed away at a very young age earlier this year, and to honor him and to pay forward this notion of appreciation. We're asking all of our guests
(36:01):
to shout out somebody to lay some appreciation on somebody who would you like to appreciate today?
Marc Dann (36:09):
Well, I think I've already mentioned my friend Mike Harshman. I didn't quite until until that moment recognize how important that was to me, and he really has been. He has been a great friend. My appreciations to my to my children.
Who have, who have, you know, found a way to adapt to to a very, a very changed set of circumstances. You know we would we? You know we would go to the Browns game. You know, in a in a in a lowe and and suddenly we're going to the Browns game in the in the upper deck.
(36:42):
So suddenly our all of all of our life changed. Very dramatically. And they you know we're they were. I made them a part of it, and so and so it made it all the more responsibility and all the all the harder for them. When when so they they and they have been
they. They've been strength for me all all 3 in different ways, and I mean obviously, like everybody. I love my grandchildren more than them and I appreciate them as well, but the fact that they stuck with me
(37:15):
means a lot in my in my export.
Govindh Jayaraman (37:18):
Yeah, that's that's beautiful.
Mark, thank you for sharing this time with me.
Marc Dann (37:24):
Thank you.
Mark Dan, welcome to paper napkin wisdom. I'm excited to have you here today.
Marc Dann (00:07):
Well, thank you for having me. I appreciate the opportunity to to participate.
Govindh Jayaraman (00:12):
So you shared a great paper napkin, which is a
very personal one, I think, and it says, Get up, get dressed, and go to work. People are counting on you.
Why did you share that with me?
Marc Dann (00:27):
Well, when I read the pitch to submit for this, I immediately thought of a situation that happened right after I resigned office as Ohio Attorney General.
Back in May of 2,008, I was a practicing lawyer up until I became Attorney General, and so, and I represent a lot of clients in the community, including a guy that had a series of duis, who happened to be a friend of my kids or a parent of one of my of my kids
(01:04):
friends, and so I got to know him socially as well as as well as professionally, and he had a really difficult hard life in his and he never really kind of was able to get back on track. In fact, he died not long after.
and I went to. So back. Then people read newspapers on newsprint, and I had a place where I religiously went every morning to pick up my 5 or 6 newspapers a day that I would read, which I have a habit that I didn't think I didn't. You know I didn't realize I didn't need to have anymore at that point in time. So I went to pick up my papers and my sweats and hoodie.
(01:48):
and no offense today. But and with my hair on on, you know, uncombed and I walked into the place, and he was there in his sweats, and Hoodie buying a beer at 7 in the morning.
and I went home after that, and I went. I literally took a shower, shaved, got dressed professionally, and went to, and spent the day in a concentrated way, trying to figure out what I was going to do next. I left office with no plan. It was trying to take the pressure a horrible pressure off my family.
(02:31):
And that you know that I caused a situation where we had, you know, people at the end of our driveway reporters at the end of our driveway. For an extended period of time there was nowhere. I went
where I wasn't. I wasn't questioned about about what was going on, and and I finally reached the conclusion that it was. It made the most sense for my family and and my and my ex-wife
(02:58):
who? Who is now one of my best friends, but to to resign and to take that pressure off of them?
Govindh Jayaraman (03:09):
Yeah. So let's let's let's dial this back a little bit, because I think people might not know the context. And so, mark you, were Ohio State Attorney General at the time.
Marc Dann (03:21):
That's right.
Govindh Jayaraman (03:21):
And you resigned amidst some personal pressure around.
Let's call it what it was. It was a scandal, right? There was a scandal in your personal life related to an affair with with a member of your staff. Is that correct?
Marc Dann (03:38):
That's correct.
Govindh Jayaraman (03:39):
Yeah. And and as a result of that pressure.
you you know, you pulled the chute you got out of that environment to take the pressure off of your family, and of course, off of yourself as well.
That must have felt like look! There was a scandal. There was a decision. There was a choice there was, there was, there were challenges there. There was a mistake.
(04:03):
but in that moment it must have felt really lonely.
Marc Dann (04:09):
Oh, incredibly so. yes, I mean I went from. You know, my phone constantly ringing
to. I don't think I received a single phone call
that day. When you go through something like this, you find out who your real friends are and many people who I've been in politics by that point, by almost 30 years, both as a staffer, as a volunteer, as an activist, as a contributor, as a fundraiser, as a State Senator, and then, as Attorney General, and many of the people who I thought were my dearest friends.
(04:45):
turned out not to be my not to be my friends. At that time. Since then I've really made a conscious effort.
whatever the circumstances, to reach out to anybody that I know, that's going through something like that, because I know how I remember every single call that I did get over that period of time. I remember every single note that I received
(05:08):
and there weren't many of them. So it wasn't hard to to remember that and I found that that's been a that's been a I'm Jewish, but I find that to be a so we call the Mitzvah.
That that I could. I could share with people based on my experience, and to say, Look, I have no judgment. I am unrelated to the situation that you're in. I'm a lawyer, so we can have attorney client privilege, which I'm happy to share with you. But if you just need somebody to talk, to call me
(05:40):
and provide my phone number, there were other Ags over time that have resigned lawyers who have been disciplined friends that have been involved in criminal activity of people that I've known along the way, and I feel good about that. That's 1 of the things I've tried to do to try to make something positive out of what I went through
(06:03):
a little more context, though, on the resignation. So while the personal, while the affair was a absolute, you know, horrible thing, and very unfair and unkind to my wife and to my family, and to this really terrific young woman who went through this with me
to some extent it was it was, only it was. The bigger problem was that when I got elected Attorney General I didn't expect to get elected.
(06:33):
There was also a Democratic Governor elected at the same time, so there was a real strain on finding talent to run
a big. The Attorney General's office has 1,500 employees. It's a very big operation, 500 lawyers and to find managers. I was competing with the Governor, who had much better jobs to to offer, and the other Democrats won all but one of the row offices so competing with all of them as well, and I ended up hiring a couple of my friends
(07:07):
into into jobs where they were were over their head. And and they made some terrible decisions that were in part sexual harassment. Sexual harassment related.
So the scandal was really that. But in the course of that they were my friends, of course, knew, because I had shared a place to stay with them. I was only in Columbus, you know, very rarely overnight I would commute back and forth because my kids were young to Youngstown, which is about 2 and a half hour. Drive as often as I could so, but on the few nights I was there I stayed with them, and they were aware of what was going on with her, and so, when
(07:45):
they became the subject of of of me, having to ask them to resign or fire them. It was, you know, I knew, that this other issue would come out
and so we made the decision. I made the decision that I needed to. I needed to to come clean 1st with my family.
and then with the with, you know, with the community, and I and I took a real real stab at it. I did. The. It's kind of a cliche now, but I did the, you know, answer questions till they dropped news conference for 2 and a half hours, filled in questions from reporters who were my dear friends, and one of the huge problems was, I was A. I came in as a fiery reformer into office. My brand was truth.
(08:31):
and so the people who who had helped me get there, the reporters that relied on my honesty to expose serious corruption in State government that got me in the position to be elected when I stopped telling them the truth because I couldn't. That was very. That became a bit almost exacerbated everybody's vitriol and determination to
(08:59):
to show me that I you know that I deserve and I deserved it. I mean, there's no question about it. Did that flew to 3 editorial boards right after that made my pitch, and it didn't work. Didn't take sometimes that works sometimes it didn't. You know. Interesting in the context of politics in 2025,
(09:21):
I think what happened would have I would have. I probably could have sustained it. I probably could have sustained it. Then I had a thought that I could fire all the political people in the office because they were they were the ones the 1st ones to kind of turn on me when when things went wrong, because the career lawyers and the career law enforcement folks that work for the Ohio Attorney General were fabulous, and and frankly, there was no need for the political layer.
(09:48):
And simply just do my job and run the office and but for the family considerations. That's probably something I would have done.
But you know it it even with even with resigning the Ptsd. That my my kids still.
you know, suffer from from all that is significant. I finally got them voting again. So I'm happy about that. I feel I'm very lucky. I have 3 adult children, 2 grandchildren, and I have, I think, as good a relationship with them as anybody I know, and I love that. I mean that is the highlight in the most important thing in my life other than my marriage.
(10:32):
And so so I'm fortunate that I was able to weather through that. But that took a minute.
Govindh Jayaraman (10:39):
Minutes. So, Mark, you know, I want to thank you for giving people the context.
Because I think it's important that people understand it.
And and what I want people to understand is that you know, while
they may not relate, you know, a lot of people listening may not relate to the situation
(11:03):
and the conditions around.
the mistake that you made, and the repercussions that you had to face, and the and the way in which you faced them. We've all been in situations where
things like we've made a mistake, a big freaking mistake.
(11:23):
and had to do something about it.
And I think this is the this is so. The uncomfortable truth about it for a lot of us is in the discomfort we have a choice to grow
or settle right. I mean, when life gets.
Marc Dann (11:39):
Or or become angry, become angry, and and.
Govindh Jayaraman (11:42):
And blame and blame everybody else. Blame the people you put in place for taking you down when you did the right thing.
That's not what I heard from you. What I heard is that you made you made a decision, and then you had to own up to it, and
and you did it in a way that, as crappy as it was given the number of alternatives in front of you.
(12:05):
you felt it might be better for your family
if you made other steps like resigning and stepping out of it.
So this humiliation is public because it's
on TV. It's everywhere. But some of us face a quieter humiliation around some of the decisions we make. Only a few people know about it right?
(12:28):
And I'm sure you've made some of those mistakes, too. So, having made the the quiet ones, and this really big one.
is there a difference between them and how you feel like I mean, it's, I think this is the I think it's a question right? I mean, I'm interested. What do you think about that?
Marc Dann (12:48):
You know. So since I've been focusing on these things that I've had this experience, and so I'm informed by I don't think it was something that me, as a young, ambitious politician and lawyer, aggressive, ambitious lawyer and politician, thought much about. Before this all happened. I thought a lot about it obviously since 2,008,
(13:13):
and I actually saw there was actually a story or a column in the New York Times yesterday that I shared with my wife, and one of the things I wish I knew from an 85 year old saying things I wish I knew one of them was.
people aren't thinking about you.
(13:34):
In the way
and the way that you think that they're thinking about, even even for me, in the public setting.
Govindh Jayaraman (13:41):
And I can't tell you the number of times that I've.
Marc Dann (13:44):
Attributed something that has gone wrong to the fact that somebody, you know, realized who I was and what my background was, and unfortunate because I represent individuals and consumers. I don't represent companies where this becomes a daily exercise, but where it just wasn't true. I mean, it just wasn't on anybody's mind at all, and I've learned later, and I'm sure there are many instances where I never learned that it wasn't on their mind that I spent
(14:13):
hours and time beating, beating myself up
about it, because people aren't necessarily thinking about me in the way that I think they're thinking about me, and and that applies to all of us.
Govindh Jayaraman (14:25):
Right.
So
you're facing this. And and I asked you this question about feeling alone because you you brought up. And I think it's really important that people understand this. You brought up the possibly private humiliation that your friend was facing. It was dealing with an addiction problem.
(14:46):
and
you related to it in your very public situation. And this is what I mean, that the private humiliation, the loneliness that people feel.
I think, is very much aligned with, and similar
to the public one that you felt in a lot of ways, because people have this feeling that everybody knows and everybody can feel this and and all that kind of stuff.
(15:10):
and and so let's get back to your your napkin.
Marc Dann (15:15):
Yeah.
Govindh Jayaraman (15:15):
It sounds like a non-negotiable right. Get up, get dressed, and go to work
like those are 3 serious, non-negotiables. And you started with those very simple basic steps.
And and was that what you felt you needed to to find yourself again.
Marc Dann (15:35):
Absolutely. I mean, I I needed. I needed that. I wasn't. I'm not a rester. I'm not a sitter. I'm not a I'm not somebody that I'm a doer in every. I always have been and remain so. I mean, I start every day still at 4 30 in the morning, go to the gym.
work for a few hours, have breakfast, and then go to the office and and work until late, you know, later into the evening. Fortunately, I've always been able to do something that I love, so I know that everybody doesn't have that
(16:03):
that advantage to be able to do. But and I. And and in my later years I've become much more focused on building friendships and relationships and outside interests. I've been, I've taken up improv
which has been incredible fun. And I've learned a ton more about myself in that process, and I love that I'm not terribly. I don't think I'll be. You'll be seeing me on Saturday night. Live anytime soon but but I get through the performances in a way that, surprisingly, for all my public
(16:35):
speaking. Experience is horrifying the worst fear. That I probably ever even even going through this. The fear on getting on stage without having a script is is something people, you know, can learn a lot from, anyway. But but yeah, so I've always been. And so it wouldn't have been me to sit and watch. Now. I watched plenty of reruns of law and order
(17:00):
in the time that because at a certain point there's only so many calls you can make. There's only so many emails you can send and resumes that you can send, especially when people aren't really responding to you. And and so, you know. So I did. I did spend, you know, much more time, I think. I you know there are 400 and some episodes of law and order. I think I don't know if they have that in Canada. But it's yeah. It's, you know. I watched an awful lot of them, for whatever reason. That was what that was. What you know was a comfort
(17:30):
to me in the process. And and then I just and I but I went out and I was well, I started taking. I started taking pro bono cases on.
I went to the local legal aid. So one of the things I'd done as Attorney General, as you remember, 2,008 was the beginning of the financial crisis, and so I worked with the Chief Justice of the Ohio Supreme Court and the Ohio State Bar Association
(17:55):
to establish what turned out to be the largest volunteer lawyer mobilization in the country
to help people who are facing foreclosure in Ohio. It's a judicial foreclosure process. So you're entitled to do a new issue that the people shouldn't take for granted anymore. But you're entitled to due process of law and a hearing. And so I went to the to the program that I started, and I asked for a dozen files to work on, and they gave them to me, and I
(18:26):
got to start. So I went to work. I and I was fortunate at the time to become successful for
a number of those folks. I don't think there was. I think there was one out of the 12 that ended up losing their house. We were able to find help, find solutions for them, which was, which was, you know, helpful.
and I was, you know, it gave me something to do. I hadn't practiced law at that level in a very long time, so it was very humbling.
(18:51):
But at the same time it was very, and I did it. So I was living at the time in Youngstown, Ohio, which is where my ex-wife's family was from, and where we we raised our children
up until then, and I knew that there were 2 places that I couldn't, that I wouldn't even be able to do something like that. And one was Columbus, which is the State capital, and the other was Youngstown, where they have a very high density of news coverage. The highest rated shows in Youngstown are the news and talk radio and TV shows. And so I was very, very well known there. So I actually went to the Cleveland legal
(19:27):
wait.
because I realized if I'm going to have a law practice, it would. And I grew up in Cleveland. So what there was connection there. But people were, you know, people were less focused on state government and less focused on me.
And and so that's where I that's where that's where I went.
Govindh Jayaraman (19:43):
I so so one of my beliefs. So I I've had massive
setbacks, and and when I've had them my favorite brain candy was to get on a stationary bike and watch all the Marvel and Star Wars Library. There's
(20:05):
tons of great popcorn there, not popcorn for me. I was on the bike when I was doing it. But it's amazing that some of us find those kinds of things.
and I also feel like the best way when you've got no momentum in your life, and you can't get any. I found for me. A great way to build it is to give it away. And you did that. You know you did that.
Marc Dann (20:28):
That's right.
Govindh Jayaraman (20:28):
And you found a way to give it away on purpose by going to Cleveland. And it's interesting that you said that the doing the work itself
was humbling.
Marc Dann (20:40):
Right.
Govindh Jayaraman (20:41):
But it filled your bucket, didn't it?
Marc Dann (20:43):
Right. Oh, for sure! And it was. It was also gratifying in many ways. I mean, it was.
Govindh Jayaraman (20:49):
They can be very gratifying.
Marc Dann (20:51):
Yeah, right? Right? I mean, I didn't know how to do electronic filing, because I had always had people that did that. I didn't know how to do, and that was newish at the time. And if it wasn't electronically filed, I had to go see the clerk of courts and face people that I thought might know me because they were all politically appointed, and it was in Cuyahoga County. Cleveland is a very Democratic county, and so those were democratic activists that were across that counter
(21:16):
when I when I showed up with the with the pleadings in court and I had to make the copies, and and you know.
fortunately I'm in. My mom made me take typing in in middle school, and so so I could. I could. I was good on a computer. I'm too good. Actually, because a lot of the a lot of the evidence of what happened with with with the
(21:37):
the relationship was in writing
a lot of emails and a lot of and a lot of text messages. And I think in again, if you think back to 2,008. We didn't really understand the kind of permanency of of those communications.
and at the time most people did. I didn't. Certainly I certainly learned that the hard way. But so I was able to use computers and adapt adapt that way. But yeah, it was. It was. But no, I'm so glad. I'm so glad that it happened, and it really led to everything else that that has happened since then.
Govindh Jayaraman (22:11):
So this is, people are counting on you part.
What people are you talking about?
Marc Dann (22:17):
Well, my kids, so my son was a was a football player in a high school. I think he was a sophomore.
My daughter was in middle school. My oldest daughter was actually had. She was my driver during the campaign, and I mean so if you're if you're a father of daughters, which I know you are right. After she graduated from college I spent a year in the car with my daughter.
(22:46):
which was for me the greatest thing in the world, probably the most worst nightmare of hers. But it was the greatest thing in the world for me, because in a campaign where there's all kinds of stress and ups and downs, having somebody who I couldn't fire and couldn't fire me was really important in that context, and she and I just had this
(23:10):
bonding experience. So she had then gone to work for the Secretary of State.
after we got after I got elected over my objection because there was a you know there was a look to it that wasn't wasn't ideal but the Secretary of State insisted. and and and and and me, I had this incredible skill. She she was an artist, and graduated from Michigan University, Michigan School of Design, and then
(23:37):
later from from a graduate level program in that. But she. So she went to work doing what she was good at. And so so she was working in State government when this happened.
and so she needed support. And and because, you know, she wasn't going to work in State government for forever in that under those circumstances, and although I think she could have but again, you know, she didn't know what people were thinking as opposed to, you know, same same scenario for her. And then, my my son, we had. We had a plan I Googled.
(24:12):
and this is something I spent a lot of time on also as part of my get up and go to work part. But it's also people are counting on you, my son. We googled good school, bad football.
and and we and we settled on a few schools where we thought his level of of play
that it would give him an edge in getting getting in later on. I guess you know people there was a scandal here where some guy got in trouble, for like doing this for money. I was doing it for free, not just for him, but for his friends as well. And so he ended up playing football at Georgetown, which is a great school, and I was very proud about that, but he was in his high school football, so we were focusing on his.
(24:54):
You know. He had expensive. He was not a natural athlete, so we had to pay for a running coach. I didn't know such a thing existed. We had to make sure that the kids had what they needed
so that their life wasn't disrupted any more than than it would have been so to be able to make sure that they were able to participate in activities. And while my, my ex-wife was working and had a small business
(25:19):
that we had to start because we didn't really realize. So so when I got elected, I wasn't really expecting to win, I ran because I thought it'd be a great experience for me and for the kids
to see government and politics up close. And I was kind of the last Democrat over the line to win the election. And this is a true story. I've sat in the living room that night with my father-in-law, who wouldn't let me move out of the house because he didn't believe that the results that were coming in were accurate, and my wife and the kids, and at that time every member of the Senate.
(25:54):
a copy of the Ohio revised Code, and so at some point my wife asked me, Well, what does this job pay?
And I said, I have no idea.
And so I went and got pulled out the revised code, and and for lawyers will know the pocket part where the updates were kept, and it turned out the job paid $109,000 a year. Now that's a great salary. That's an honor that's a fair. But
(26:20):
the combination of my State Senate salary and my part-time law practice yielded a lot more income
than than that. And so my ex, who was kind of as a lark selling fiesta, wear pottery over the Internet, the new Internet ebay and those kinds of things. She ended up ramping that business up to make that to help make up the difference. And so so she and she became after Macy's the second largest online
(26:51):
retailer of Fiestawa for a while. If you're going to sell something online about the worst thing you can do is something that weighs as much as pottery. And so we spent a lot of time. But we had a where, you know, she had built a warehouse, and we so there was that work to do. But but you know we still lost my salary all at once, and so I had to, you know, cash in my pension.
(27:16):
I had to go to the bank and humbly ask for forbearance on my mortgage, which is something, by the way that now I can relate to many of my clients have had to go through the same thing.
and so I'm able to share that experience with them, and then we went, you know, and then I went. But I had to meet those obligations at first, st you know, and take care of the kids and make sure that they got what they needed, and one was done with college. But 2 were just starting, just getting ready to go, and so I was fortunate that I was ultimately able to, you know, to make sure that everybody got their education and
(27:49):
and pass, you know, hand them off to the none of them, fortunately or unfortunately for me, decided to go to law school, which I'd really hoped I would have been happy to pay for that probably more happy than to pay for undergrad, but none of them decided to follow in those footsteps. But yeah, so that was the people to take care of food had to get on the table. You know all of that.
Govindh Jayaraman (28:13):
One of the things that I think is really interesting about your story, because when we
it feels like you took all of
the learnings all of the pain, all of the isolation, and have paid that forward in the work you're doing now for others, having to go through the forbearance exercise with the banks, using that to help people both in legal aid in Cleveland to get started, but also in your consumer work that you do today when you, when you talk about
(28:47):
you know being that person that people can call
it's not that you're you're giving forgiveness to people, but you're reminding people that they're not alone, and there's nothing nothing wrong with that. There's a there's a humanity. So you've taken. I believe that if we are.
if we are truly going to learn from the hard things that happen to us, we must incorporate them in the gift that we give back in the, in, the, in the paying forward to society, to the community in some kind of way, and it feels like you've been
(29:20):
deliberate about that. It feels like you've been intentional about that. And and in so doing, you know, many years later, now, you've built a pretty successful practice. You've you know, you've been able to
start differently, not start new, but start differently right.
Marc Dann (29:39):
Right, and I've been fortunate, you know, and and really I mean it is. It is. It is all informed by by what I've been through, and the clients that I was able to. A lawyer friend once told me, long before this all happened, that you know, if you to build a law practice, find somebody something nobody wants to do and do it well.
And so that was ringing in my head. He was one of the friends that stayed my friend after just a wonderful mentor that I had. He was actually owned a plane, and he was our pilot during the campaign. Ohio has an airport in all 88 counties and so, and part of my effort to be home as frequently as possible for the family.
(30:17):
you know, and Mike was trying to keep up his pilots hours. We had a great. It was a great combination, so we spent a ton of time like with my daughter. We spent a ton of time together, he and I did.
and he actually came to work for me in the Ag's office, and he left when I left.
because he didn't want to be there, and he was, and had the means to be able to do that. And
oh, my God! He was just so so supportive of everything I did and tried to do and and but for but but for Mike Harshman, I don't know
Govindh Jayaraman (30:47):
Yeah.
Marc Dann (30:48):
Yeah, I don't know.
Govindh Jayaraman (30:50):
So I want to recognize the emotion that you're showing right now, because, you know, I've been there, and and I think that
when you've when you've been alone, when you've been, when you've been in those dark places.
Marc Dann (31:06):
It doesn't take much.
Govindh Jayaraman (31:09):
To give you hope usually just takes one person, and
I think that it's easy for people to to rebuild themselves and not be that person and look down at the person that's in trouble and disassociate from it, because that's so painful. You know. I think I think a lot of times for a lot of people. They look back at that, and they see the pain, and they don't see
(31:35):
that they can help. They don't see that
they don't relate. They don't want to relate to it anymore. And and I think it's harder
to reach back and be there and and be that person.
I believe that we are our best when we are for others, what we need for ourselves.
And you needed someone like you.
(31:59):
And it sounds like you're trying to be that for other people. Am I wrong?
Marc Dann (32:03):
I, you know. I hope so. I mean, I really do. And I'm you know, again. I've been also, you know, we talk in my office about doing well and doing good at the same time. And and it's not, you know, it's not hard as a lawyer that's hard to do. Really it's hard to master. Many lawyers are very unhappy in their lives
and in their work, and we only represent people that we feel like we want to represent. We have 600 clients at any given time, so we can fire any client that we want to. If they mistreat a staff member or or somebody is somebody who, we don't, you know, no longer believe in their cause?
(32:38):
So I mean, I'm so lucky to be in. Be in that in that position. And so I get to do that professionally. And I, you know, fortunately found a way to get paid for it, too, which is which is great, and and to share that I mean, we have. Look, you know, I have probably more lawyers working with me than other lawyers would do in this in this situation, because I want to make sure their clients needs are met, and I take less of a salary and a profit than I think others and contemporaries.
(33:04):
Do because I you know we still do 25 pro bono cases at a time in our office as well. I mean, because again, it's like it's like you and the and and the playoff beard. I don't. Wanna I don't. I'm superstitious. If I stop taking pro bono work.
you know. Maybe maybe the sky will fall again, and I hope it doesn't. But it could. And that's the other thing you have to know, and anytime that something could happen. There could be a situation with a client. There could be a situation, and I have lots of just like when I was Attorney General. I have dozens of people signing my name to things that some of which I don't necessarily directly see. And so, you know, for reasons out of my control that things could. Things could go badly quickly.
Govindh Jayaraman (33:50):
So.
Mark, I want. I want to. I want to thank you for reaching out in the way that you did because
I mean, I think
I think this is. It's an appropriate conversation that we don't have often enough, and I want to commend you for being so transparent with me.
(34:11):
and I want.
Marc Dann (34:12):
And I commend you for focusing on these types of things. I don't know how much of the you know of your guests, but I'm sure there's a lot of people that are. Their wisdom was born of, of of of
distress.
Govindh Jayaraman (34:27):
Yeah, I mean, we. We love to talk about the successful lessons, but there's far more to learn
from the things that don't work out, and those are equally powerful if we let them be. And if we give people the space to learn and look, the outcome is, you've got a beautiful relationship with your 3 children, grandchildren you've got. You've recovered, and have a beautiful relationship with your ex-wife, who.
Marc Dann (34:52):
Yeah, we spend hours together, I'm sure.
Govindh Jayaraman (34:54):
That wasn't a straight path, either.
Marc Dann (34:55):
Even even her, her husband and my wife. And we all spend holidays together every year.
Govindh Jayaraman (35:00):
How wonderful, how wonderful! And so so there is!
There is absolutely. If you're listening right now, there are lots of places to reach out for hope. But Mark's story should be one of them. One of the things we've been doing this year Mark, is to honor a former friend of the show a guest on the show in our 1st season. His name was John Rulan. He wrote a great book that transformed
(35:26):
his little corner of the universe with a book called Giftology, became a bestseller.
but before that he was on our on paper napkin wisdom and his napkin was what you appreciate appreciates, and his point was love on. Give gratitude on to people around you, because they will appreciate in value not only to you, but to the world. So to honor him. He suddenly passed away at a very young age earlier this year, and to honor him and to pay forward this notion of appreciation. We're asking all of our guests
(36:01):
to shout out somebody to lay some appreciation on somebody who would you like to appreciate today?
Marc Dann (36:09):
Well, I think I've already mentioned my friend Mike Harshman. I didn't quite until until that moment recognize how important that was to me, and he really has been. He has been a great friend. My appreciations to my to my children.
Who have, who have, you know, found a way to adapt to to a very, a very changed set of circumstances. You know we would we? You know we would go to the Browns game. You know, in a in a in a lowe and and suddenly we're going to the Browns game in the in the upper deck.
(36:42):
So suddenly our all of all of our life changed. Very dramatically. And they you know we're they were. I made them a part of it, and so and so it made it all the more responsibility and all the all the harder for them. When when so they they and they have been
they. They've been strength for me all all 3 in different ways, and I mean obviously, like everybody. I love my grandchildren more than them and I appreciate them as well, but the fact that they stuck with me
(37:15):
means a lot in my in my export.
Govindh Jayaraman (37:18):
Yeah, that's that's beautiful.
Mark, thank you for sharing this time with me.
Marc Dann (37:24):
Thank you.
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