In Episode 268 of Paper Napkin Wisdom, we continue the Freedom by Design series with leadership expert and business growth strategist Michael Walsh. Michael has helped countless organizations align leadership and team development with sustainable growth—and in this tenth installment, he delivers a crucial message for anyone leading people: Develop a career development growth plan that’s not about your business, but about your people.
The napkin reads: “Develop a Career Development Growth Plan” with four key ideas underneath:
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It’s all about them
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Longer-range goals (10 yrs)
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Superpower & Kryptonite
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Learning over the next 3 years
This deceptively simple napkin is actually a career growth compass—one that aligns with the values of true leadership: unlocking potential, not prescribing performance. It’s about cultivating human flourishing as a growth strategy. And in today’s market, it’s more than thoughtful—it’s necessary.
It’s Not About You—It’s About Them
Michael kicks things off with a strong perspective: “Career development should never start with the business—it should start with the person.”
Too often, growth planning starts from the company’s perspective: “What do we need them to become?” But in this model, Walsh challenges leaders to flip the lens and ask instead: “What do they want to become—and how can we support that journey?”
When people feel seen and supported for who they are and what they want, they show up differently. This shift in posture—from extraction to empowerment—creates a culture where career development becomes a mutual investment.
“They’ll run through walls for the business… if the business is helping them become who they want to be.”
Think 10 Years Out
Most “development plans” barely look beyond the next performance review. But Michael challenges us to have a 10-year conversation. Why?
Because when people are invited to imagine themselves that far ahead, they reveal bigger dreams—and we as leaders get to help shape pathways that unlock them.
He puts it this way: “Ask your people where they want to be in 10 years—not in this company, but in life.” Then, build the plan backward from there. When that horizon becomes part of your 1:1 conversations, it changes the tone entirely.
“It’s not about retention tactics—it’s about becoming a career launchpad.”
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Govindh Jayaraman (00:02):
Michael Walsh, welcome back.
We have been talking about your freedom framework, and this is
so powerful, I think that what we're doing is we 1st started talking about some of the challenges as organizations grow through the danger zones from 1 million 20 million dollars, and beyond, and they navigate the 4 danger zones. And what's underneath the surface of those danger zones is people. And and as we've explored that
(00:29):
with the goal
of achieving freedom in the business to do the things we want to do, freedom from the business, so we can go away, and.
you know, have a vacation and bring them because of the business. So the life that we might want to have because of the success that we hopefully are growing within the organization.
(00:49):
We've just been talking at length at detail, at important detail, about training and growing your people.
and how important it is to do this, and how important it is to develop a career development growth plan that is integrated with the greater role of the individual over time.
(01:11):
Now, where we left off at the end of that was 10 great questions.
something we didn't say that, I think, is really relevant, though, is. Yeah. It takes time to do this. Not a lot of time, not nearly as much time as people think, but it takes time to do this.
but
your suggestion is that it takes about 2 h or so to do to do this sometimes longer, depending upon the person. But let's say 2 h to do this, and if we're paying somebody, let's say.
(01:39):
let's keep the number simple $50,000,
and if we're paying them $50,000 a year, and they're with us for a year or 2 years, and they're the wrong person
that's costing us just in salary.
you know, 50 to a hundred $1,000.
Michael Walsh (01:53):
Plus payroll, tax.
Govindh Jayaraman (01:55):
Plus benefits.
plus maybe all the stuff they don't care about that. They don't do that well. And its effect or impact on the organization, and financially or otherwise.
On the other hand, 2 h. What's it worth.
you know? Is it worth $100,000? It probably is 2 h of your time is probably worth $100,000, and that's the bottom line. That's why it's important to get this stuff right, because it doesn't take that much time relative to the overall benefit that we get correct.
Michael Walsh (02:24):
Correct.
Govindh Jayaraman (02:26):
The next step on this
is to focus on teams. And look, here's here's why we've talked about, and we go back and listen to it if you didn't listen to it about developing a career development growth plan where we understand the superpowers and kryptonites of individual team members.
Now, we're putting those employees together into teams.
(02:48):
What do we need to do? Well, you've talked about problems and solutions, and you've got numbers of points under each one. Let's dive in.
Michael Walsh (02:55):
Okay, where should we go 1st rather than me? Tell you, and then you correct me.
Govindh Jayaraman (02:59):
Why don't? Why don't you tell me where we go first? st Michael.
Michael Walsh (03:03):
Well, I don't know. What do you think, Colin?
Now like? I'll tell you what, let's here's the thing.
If your people are key
to gain for you to gain freedom.
Then teams done well can multiply that power.
Okay. People working together in teams. They drive everything that's good in the company.
(03:24):
However, without them life actually gets a lot harder.
So so I look at you know, when we talk about the career growth plan, the career development growth plan. It's all about the individual.
except we said that there was 2 different elements, you know, in terms of what we're hoping to get. We want them to be able to generate a a result individually, for the benefit you know, of the client, as far as that's concerned, usually. But we also
(03:51):
we also want them to be able to work with each other, to generate results that are larger than any single individual could generate. And that's where teams come in.
In fact, quite often. It's a natural place to go as far as that's concerned, and it's interesting, because if your company grows beyond that 1st danger zone when you're, you know, approaching a couple 1 million in revenue, chances are good that people are pretty good at working with each other to get a result. So they've already got some sort of semblance of teamwork. As far as that's concerned. You put them in situations where they could do the job, and they learn how to work with each other a little bit, you know. And so you figure well, that's
(04:30):
that's not a big deal. That's what we're used to doing, except as you grow further than what happens is that that you get more teams. And again, the individual teams and knowledge workers are where you actually generate results. So as you get more teams, the wheels start to get a little wobbly, as far as that's concerned, because the the you know. How do I design these things? Because they just haven't been designed.
(04:52):
you know, as well as we think, and cracks actually do start to show up.
Govindh Jayaraman (04:58):
Yeah. And and you know, one of the things that I think is really interesting is most of your napkins where you've got this line in between have great symmetry between each side.
But in this case the problems are the wrong people and people not getting along, and the solutions
are, you know, adjacent to that, but not like direct like. They're not direct
(05:22):
things and and follow my train of thought. Train people for teamwork. Well.
I think what you're suggesting is that most people just don't understand how to work together as opposed to them, not necessarily being the right.
You know the wrong people.
Michael Walsh (05:38):
So. So you know, rather than actually saying, I've got the wrong people on my team, you know, or or they just can't get along with each other. And you know, maybe we need an outward bound experience or something. So they, you know, bond in, or something. I mean, that's what a lot of people do! But.
Govindh Jayaraman (05:51):
Yeah, this is what people put in pizza carts and stuff like that. This is just ridiculous. It's yeah. They. They just haven't
trained people to work together.
Michael Walsh (05:59):
Correct. And and so they really revolve around this either competence or it's a relationship issue. And sometimes it's just that they don't have to work together because they just sort of have to figure it out, I mean, but
here's the thing we haven't been trained for teamwork.
Okay?
Govindh Jayaraman (06:17):
But wait a minute, Michael. We we do group work at.
you know. If people went to college or university, they've they've done group work there. People played on athletic teams. Sure, they've done teamwork right.
Michael Walsh (06:30):
Percentage of people play on athletic teams.
Govindh Jayaraman (06:34):
The books.
Michael Walsh (06:34):
A lot of people play on the winning athletic teams because there's a lot of people, a lot of personalities on athletic teams. And I gotta tell you. You've got some people that hog the ball.
you know, and other people that actually sit there and let those people on the ball, you know. And but even in school, if you look in in school, everybody's been told. Work hard. Okay, make sure you finish what you start. Okay, do your own work, and whatever you do, don't cheat. Now, what does that mean? Okay, cheating is rely on somebody else to do the parts that are hard for you.
(07:08):
But are were we raised that way.
Govindh Jayaraman (07:11):
Yeah.
Michael Walsh (07:12):
Okay. But but so
building a team is actually a design issue. And really, what you want to do is you want somebody else to do the parts that are hard for you, and you want to do the parts that are hard for them. I mean, it's called complementary strengths. But we've been trained in the opposite. Everybody has to be this thing called a rugged individualist, you know.
And I think Dan Sullivan came up with that term and it's fascinating to to see it. It's like everybody figures they have to have all the skills on their own, because that's what we're trained, you know, if you're looking on somebody else's paper, you're cheating. Okay?
(07:45):
And or if you know you, we've all been on these group projects where one or 2 people do 9, 90% of the work because they're kind of control freaks. They want to go a certain way. And the other people sit back and let them.
Okay. I mean, have you ever had a group? That's 5 people where everybody, you know has done incredible work.
Govindh Jayaraman (08:04):
There you go!
Michael Walsh (08:05):
More than 2 or 3, you know, out of an entire career of going to school, for however many years that was, including college and university and all that stuff, right?
Govindh Jayaraman (08:14):
Yeah.
Michael Walsh (08:14):
So we're we're actually just not trained for teams as far as that side is concerned. So you say, well, there's there's athletic teams. But how many people were on athletic teams versus one individual teams.
Govindh Jayaraman (08:26):
Other part. I love that you said this not just
teams, athletic teams, but winning athletic teams, teams that they understood that different people have different roles, and we have to work together regardless of our roles and talent and skill levels. We still have to work together. And it's in appreciating those roles
and leveraging them, that we actually find success, not the other way around.
Michael Walsh (08:48):
Absolutely, absolutely. And so there's a number of factors okay.
that are at play in team development as far as that's concerned. And one of the most basic in any expertise. Driven field
is getting clear on what you want to achieve.
In other words, setting better goals.
you know what I find is what you measure.
(09:13):
You actually have access to adjust along the way. If you don't measure it, you don't adjust it because you're not even aware that that was an issue at all, we'll say, well, we got the wrong people on the team as opposed to our team's not working very well, because we don't know how to do handoffs. I mean, if you take a look at at, let's take a 4 by 100 track meet, you know, a relay race.
(09:36):
You have 4 individuals, and
what they find is that what they'll do is they'll put the strongest person on the last leg.
They put the second strongest person on the 1st leg. They put the 3rd strongest person on the 3rd leg and the weakest person on the second leg.
Okay, just because I want to start strong. I need to finish strongest, and and the second leg is, if anything happens and I can make it up in the 3rd leg in the 4th leg as I go, but on the shoulders of of you know my second strongest person on the whole team starting the race. I'm in a situation that if there's somebody that sort of loses any ground, I can make it up most easily from the second position. If I lose too much ground in the 1st position. I might have lost the race already before I can get to the second one. Now.
(10:21):
here's a question that I have for you.
There's gonna be 2 questions.
Where do you think the most power
exists in a 4 by 100 relay race.
Govindh Jayaraman (10:33):
The Handoff.
Michael Walsh (10:35):
It's not the most power at all.
Govindh Jayaraman (10:37):
But that's where that's where the win is.
Michael Walsh (10:39):
I'd say that the 2 places I look at for power. Not that I'd ever disagree with you, sir, but the 2 places I look at is the start. If I can get a really strong start, there's power coming out of the blocks. There's power right after the handoff for each position, and then there's what's called the run for the roses the last 50 yards where the person just adrenaline takes over, and because they're at the end of.
Govindh Jayaraman (11:02):
And.
Michael Walsh (11:02):
That's why, if you have, if I've got the strongest person there, I I'll probably get the best last dash.
So that's what I would allege is the power. Now I'm gonna ask a different question. And now you may see where I'm headed here.
Where's the riskiest part.
Govindh Jayaraman (11:18):
Handoff.
Michael Walsh (11:19):
There you go. See? That's not the most powerful. That's the riskiest.
Guess where.
Govindh Jayaraman (11:24):
But I guess what I looked at is the most powerful opportunity, not the most
power, and I was looking at it.
Michael Walsh (11:31):
Account.
Govindh Jayaraman (11:32):
Yeah, I was looking at. I was when you reframed it as physical power. I understood what you said, but the most powerful opportunity to me is the handoff.
Michael Walsh (11:40):
Yeah, well.
Govindh Jayaraman (11:40):
Because that's the greatest delta. That's where the greatest delta exists.
Michael Walsh (11:44):
Because that's where the biggest risk is.
Govindh Jayaraman (11:46):
Exactly.
Michael Walsh (11:47):
And so what happens is, if I'm a little outside the line, or you're a little outside the line, or if we, if if I hand it off too early, or if we go too late, disqualifications all occur. 90% of disqualifications happen at the handoff. The other 10% is at the start line.
Govindh Jayaraman (12:03):
Correct.
Michael Walsh (12:03):
Doesn't happen that often, because you can call one false start, and then they they behave and go on. But I gotta tell you that the the handoff is where disqualifications occur. So that's where people will lose it as opposed to where people can gain it. And if you don't practice the handoff. It doesn't work now in a 4 by 100 relay. They know this.
So guess what? They spend a lot of time doing.
Govindh Jayaraman (12:24):
Well, some nations do.
Michael Walsh (12:27):
The ones that win? Do they practice that handoff? And they.
Govindh Jayaraman (12:30):
But there's a great, but there's a great story right in the last Olympics, where
the country with the greatest sprinters United States didn't place, because the plucky country, without the greatest sprinters
practice in their handoffs, really works at teamwork and won.
Michael Walsh (12:48):
And that Canada.
Yeah. Well, that goes to your point of of where the where the biggest, most powerful opportunity is. I can. Now I can see what you're saying when you talk about the most powerful opportunity, because it's like you practice that the high risk place, and you can take out that risk or mitigate that risk or minimize that risk. All of a sudden, everything else. It changes the whole, the whole thing.
Govindh Jayaraman (13:08):
Or you take what everybody else deems as a weakness into your strength.
Michael Walsh (13:12):
Well, yeah. Well, if you let's put it this way, if if everybody everybody struggles with that piece.
if I learn how to master it. Then, all of a sudden, I take that off the mat and all the rest of it. That'll make up for a little bit of difference in in terms of speed.
Govindh Jayaraman (13:28):
Yeah.
Michael Walsh (13:28):
You know.
So so yeah, it's it's fascinating to see how that part goes. So so
the 1st job. And again, you know, a team that would actually do that has expanded the goal set. They're not just about getting the the last end result or getting the best times for each person. They're actually about different parts of it. So how do I relate that to goals with regards to teams, which is exactly where I'm
(13:53):
diverting this back to myself.
there's 4 different sets of goals that you want to look at. Okay, when you're dealing, for example, with project based work. Okay? Obviously, the 1st one is the achievement of client deliverables.
Okay? And that one we all were pretty good at.
Okay, the second one.
(14:16):
I don't know that you'll be surprised. I don't think you'll be surprised at this. One is the second one is, what are the individual learning Goals or growth goals for each team member.
In other words, in light of what we talked about last time with our with our career development growth plan. I want to use every part of the job in support of people's growth.
(14:38):
Well, projects are no different. So I need to have goals around. How do I want? What is each person gonna learn on this project, and I don't care whether it's a 2 week project or a 6 month project or a 2 year project. What are the different things that somebody has an opportunity to learn from individually. Okay, the 3rd one is,
what are the team goals?
(15:00):
So how do the people want to work with each other to generate the best possible results. So I talk about, you know, and and we talk through different people's respective superpowers. Okay, how they'd like to contribute to accelerate the team. How do I strengthen? You know things and create stronger results overall and for the project for each person and for the team as a whole.
(15:24):
Okay? And then and then the 4th one would be company focused results.
So what are the company's goals from the project.
So there's obviously going to be goals for gross profit achieved. I mean, everybody includes the financial goal. But there's a lot more. So some of the goals could be the growth in reputation. You know, in a project type or in an industry increased internal capabilities collectively. Okay, using the project to help streamline, an internal process, or it could be some other potential goal that moves the company forward.
(15:57):
So I'm looking at more than just the the you know, achieving the client deliverable. I'm looking at that as one but individual learning team goals and then company focused goals as well
as far as that side is concerned. Now, the one thing I will say, there's there's a a gentleman who's actually done a masterful job at actually speaking about all this stuff.
(16:18):
and let me. Just look at. I've got his information here.
I referenced him in the book.
Okay, so I don't have it in this particular edition, but I will get. I believe the gentleman's name is Mark Samuel, and he wrote a book called Reimagine Teams.
And so we're
(16:39):
he goes into a lot more detail about how to break down goals. And as far as that's concerned, and what aspects of team goals to look at. And the guys really done great work on it. And it's definitely a worthy read as far as that's concerned. So I believe it's Mark Samuel. I know.
Govindh Jayaraman (16:56):
Mark, Samuel.
Michael Walsh (16:57):
Yeah, and reimagine teams is. It's a great book. And again, there's a lot of things to talk about teams. But he looks at different dimensions of how to design them from a design perspective to get that. So so you know, when you're taking a look at the types of goals, when I say goals for the team, he puts that thing on steroids.
Govindh Jayaraman (17:16):
And and I think one of one of the phrases that he uses is
traditional. Team building doesn't work and hasn't for decades, if ever. So I think that's pretty compelling. And and the last point that you have here is building in mentoring support for each team member.
Michael Walsh (17:32):
Yes. Well, cause here's the here's the thing about this is that.
see, here's the risk that people make. Or here's the here's the difficulty that they run into when they're doing this.
As a company grows, it gets more squirrely because you got so many different people. And and what happens is that it's really hard to measure results. When I'm small, I can measure results because I can see the results of the team. And if I've only got one or 2 teams. They're not going to go that far, and I can see what each person's contribution to the team effort and to the client. Result is. So I can actually measure performance and things like that using that model.
(18:07):
When I, when I break into a larger number of teams and people are sort of, you know, forming and breaking up and then reforming with each new project. It's really hard to actually go there. And so what I end up doing is going to competency models. And what a competency model is is. It's a model where you actually measure somebody's attributes and what against what you expect them to
(18:31):
at a certain level of development. So just using engineering for an example, when somebody's learning how to become a Png, a professional engineer, they, one of the the things I saw was it had 7 different levels.
And in each of these different levels there's a bunch of different competencies earlier. Well, some of it is problem solving. Some of it is conflict, resolution. Some of it is their interaction with others, their communication skills and all that stuff. And it's across a broad spectrum. But there's a different level of growth needed for each different level of engineering. Like, you know, if I get to an E 2 versus an E, 3 versus an E. 4. Well, the problem is is that if you and I are both engineers, that means we both have to have the same level of skills
(19:15):
in the same areas, to the same degrees, to be at the same level.
except you may be strong at one thing, and I may be strong at something different. And unless we're both strong at these things, we're not going to get the same pay. So what happens is, they've gone away from a results model just because it's too complex to track.
And they go to this competency model. And frankly, what happens is they start to actually have us be interchangeable. Okay, the minute you start to have conformity, you start to lose the uniqueness of each person, and you actually harm the team. And so, and if we're completely interchangeable, you've literally lost that X factor of the human element within a project where you're really not
(19:56):
tapping the magic that each person has to bring. As far as that's concerned.
We know that teams generate results if they're done well, and teams of complementary strengths generate those. So if I can keep a team model even as I grow, and I found ways to actually support the measurement and and support of people in their learning. I mean, we've got the individual project plans or sorry the individual career development plans. You know, people will actually plan their projects. But if I can dovetail their work on a team with
(20:30):
that actual growth plan. I'm in a situation where I maybe I can keep teamwork that I know has worked at lower levels. I can keep that as a as a you know, stable part as I grow. And so the way to do that what I found is that, you know, we've got 2 structural supports that that are there. And there's actually lots of them. But I've identified 2 that that I talk about in the book.
(20:51):
and that's one is project teams based on what I call a homeroom model.
Okay? So when I was in high school
at least a year or 2 ago.
Yeah, whatever the
Govindh Jayaraman (21:08):
A couple years ago.
Michael Walsh (21:10):
It is at least so. So when I was in high school, you know what I had a bunch of different classes. So I had a schedule that that had me at 8 different classes through a thing, you know, through the the course of a day, and I've seen other other schools where they'd have them in more intense blocks, and they might only have 4. But the bottom line is they're switching between different classes, and you'd each follow your own schedule as far as that's concerned.
(21:32):
But we're we're always checking in a home room.
and the homeroom wasn't any one of the classes. It was just a place where they take attendance, and they do announcements. And they, you know, there's a number of things they do in a homeroom environment. If there's any special things they have to hand out, or any special messages they deal with, they they deal them in the home room. So if if I've got a homeroom plus a project team that my home room leader could actually
(21:54):
watch my growth while I go back and forth between different projects and the homeroom leader, if you want to call it, or the equivalent of my homeroom teacher could actually follow my development.
So that's 1 model we've actually used quite successfully with people is use this project team plus homeroom model.
Okay, to actually support them. The other one is to actually have a mentoring program that's not based in home rooms, but where people are actually assigned a mentor
(22:22):
and the mentors actually. And then one of the things about a mentor is they can't be your direct boss, or they cannot be your boss's boss. In other words, they've got to be somebody that's not directly tied to your ability to perform on your projects. So then they can truly be a mentor.
They can really be support to you, not just trying to drive you to get a better result. And so we've actually set up that model as well. And so what happens is, somebody gets a different perspective from somebody who's working either in a different part of the company or a different team. But you know, quite often they're obviously more established, and they've got more experience. The mentors than the Mentees do so, they're there to grow the people, and then they either use outside mentors, or they might
(23:05):
have a senior partner who actually supports some of the more senior mentors as far as that's concerned. So either a project based plus homeroom setup or a mentoring system that that's not necessarily based in a homeroom. But that's independently devised. We've actually used both of those quite successfully, and those are only 2. I mean, there's a number of there's a number of other ways that people can do it. I mean, there's things called matrix management. There's a bunch of other
(23:30):
tools that people use for. How do I actually allow teams to continue to be present and generate results and still get the information, but also still find ways to support the individuals, even though they're changing between and among different teams.
Govindh Jayaraman (23:47):
Okay, sure with all of that in mind.
Michael Walsh (23:50):
Yes.
Govindh Jayaraman (23:50):
Why do we need to focus on teams.
Michael Walsh (23:54):
I guess teams actually are what allow you to generate collective results that are larger than any single individual can have, and frankly, the lion's share of your major results are going to come through teams, and if you do teams well, everything else goes really smoothly, and if I can keep it to teams rather than going to some sort of a competency matrix competency matrix. Actually, quite often, quite often, goes to bureaucratic systems. And I start to lose the uniqueness of each person.
(24:22):
If I can continue to tap the uniqueness of each person. My cost effectiveness is way way stronger. It's easier to give people bigger raises. It's easier to actually have people supported in their growth.
It, you know, that's another version of
really integrating the various aspects of what can happen? Because I'm I'm tapping the power of something that I'm already good at at a smaller size.
Govindh Jayaraman (24:49):
And we don't really know how to work in a team.
And this is something that people need to understand. Like we need to learn how to work as a team. We need to teach each other how to work as a team. We need to
practice how we work as a team, because those things are not part of what we learn.
Michael Walsh (25:08):
You know, and one of the things about that actually just mentioning it.
We say we don't have time to practice, you know, who practices.
Govindh Jayaraman (25:19):
Who.
Michael Walsh (25:20):
One of 2 things we actually
actually, I'll say one of 3 things, one when it's late from death.
Fire departments practice constantly.
Okay military. They practice constantly. The navy seals practice constantly. Different people practice constantly where there's life and death involved police forces. They quite often they've got setups where they practice the things, certainly for swat teams and things like that. Now you can say, well, we're constantly at work. We're, you know. We don't have time to stop in like a fire department. They're waiting between fires. Okay.
(25:54):
Second place, you see, it is in sports teams.
because how they work with each other has a huge impact on whether this goes well or not, and the more money on the line the more they practice as teams and the winning teams. Actually, you can tell who actually practices as a team or who's a series of individuals? Okay? And the 3rd place is where it may not be life and death. But the stakes are really high, depending on on how well this goes. And I'm the thing I'm thinking of is orchestras.
(26:21):
and I'm thinking of ballet where you've got multiple players in a ballet. And I'm also thinking of plays.
you know, when people put on a play, it's it's what's the cadence of how people work together. So again, lots of practice, as far as that's concerned. But the truth is, we're not going 24, 7 at least we don't need to be. And if we actually debrief, and we see how we did. And I mean, there's many ways to practice. So if we can actually integrate that into how we did like, who does? It's interesting, because in in in
(26:53):
Canada we quite often talk about a debrief in the Uk. They talk about a wash up a wash up is the is the British version of a debrief what we call, you know so, and in the Us. They talk about a post-mortem.
So so it's interesting. The language is different. But it's the same thing. It's taking a look and seeing what can we learn from what we just did?
(27:13):
And then how do we want to do it this time? And so, if I combine it with both the individual goals, and also the goals for how the team works together. You know, how do I do those handoffs? How do I? Where are the tough spots. How do we talk about problems
in a team? And this is where Samuel goes right into those kinds of things again, Guy does phenomenal job. My job wasn't to replicate what he's doing. It's more just to acknowledge that there's lots here, and there's way too much to ignore.
(27:41):
So.
Govindh Jayaraman (27:41):
And that's the point I wanted to get to that. There's way too much to ignore around focusing on teams. And this is something that needs to be done. And
again, if you do it and integrate it into what you're doing, it doesn't take much time.
and it has high high value.
Michael Walsh (28:01):
And I I freedom as well, because if your teams are clicking you have a life back.
Govindh Jayaraman (28:08):
Yeah, absolutely.
Thank you. Michael.
Michael Walsh, welcome back.
We have been talking about your freedom framework, and this is
so powerful, I think that what we're doing is we 1st started talking about some of the challenges as organizations grow through the danger zones from 1 million 20 million dollars, and beyond, and they navigate the 4 danger zones. And what's underneath the surface of those danger zones is people. And and as we've explored that
(00:29):
with the goal
of achieving freedom in the business to do the things we want to do, freedom from the business, so we can go away, and.
you know, have a vacation and bring them because of the business. So the life that we might want to have because of the success that we hopefully are growing within the organization.
(00:49):
We've just been talking at length at detail, at important detail, about training and growing your people.
and how important it is to do this, and how important it is to develop a career development growth plan that is integrated with the greater role of the individual over time.
(01:11):
Now, where we left off at the end of that was 10 great questions.
something we didn't say that, I think, is really relevant, though, is. Yeah. It takes time to do this. Not a lot of time, not nearly as much time as people think, but it takes time to do this.
but
your suggestion is that it takes about 2 h or so to do to do this sometimes longer, depending upon the person. But let's say 2 h to do this, and if we're paying somebody, let's say.
(01:39):
let's keep the number simple $50,000,
and if we're paying them $50,000 a year, and they're with us for a year or 2 years, and they're the wrong person
that's costing us just in salary.
you know, 50 to a hundred $1,000.
Michael Walsh (01:53):
Plus payroll, tax.
Govindh Jayaraman (01:55):
Plus benefits.
plus maybe all the stuff they don't care about that. They don't do that well. And its effect or impact on the organization, and financially or otherwise.
On the other hand, 2 h. What's it worth.
you know? Is it worth $100,000? It probably is 2 h of your time is probably worth $100,000, and that's the bottom line. That's why it's important to get this stuff right, because it doesn't take that much time relative to the overall benefit that we get correct.
Michael Walsh (02:24):
Correct.
Govindh Jayaraman (02:26):
The next step on this
is to focus on teams. And look, here's here's why we've talked about, and we go back and listen to it if you didn't listen to it about developing a career development growth plan where we understand the superpowers and kryptonites of individual team members.
Now, we're putting those employees together into teams.
(02:48):
What do we need to do? Well, you've talked about problems and solutions, and you've got numbers of points under each one. Let's dive in.
Michael Walsh (02:55):
Okay, where should we go 1st rather than me? Tell you, and then you correct me.
Govindh Jayaraman (02:59):
Why don't? Why don't you tell me where we go first? st Michael.
Michael Walsh (03:03):
Well, I don't know. What do you think, Colin?
Now like? I'll tell you what, let's here's the thing.
If your people are key
to gain for you to gain freedom.
Then teams done well can multiply that power.
Okay. People working together in teams. They drive everything that's good in the company.
(03:24):
However, without them life actually gets a lot harder.
So so I look at you know, when we talk about the career growth plan, the career development growth plan. It's all about the individual.
except we said that there was 2 different elements, you know, in terms of what we're hoping to get. We want them to be able to generate a a result individually, for the benefit you know, of the client, as far as that's concerned, usually. But we also
(03:51):
we also want them to be able to work with each other, to generate results that are larger than any single individual could generate. And that's where teams come in.
In fact, quite often. It's a natural place to go as far as that's concerned, and it's interesting, because if your company grows beyond that 1st danger zone when you're, you know, approaching a couple 1 million in revenue, chances are good that people are pretty good at working with each other to get a result. So they've already got some sort of semblance of teamwork. As far as that's concerned. You put them in situations where they could do the job, and they learn how to work with each other a little bit, you know. And so you figure well, that's
(04:30):
that's not a big deal. That's what we're used to doing, except as you grow further than what happens is that that you get more teams. And again, the individual teams and knowledge workers are where you actually generate results. So as you get more teams, the wheels start to get a little wobbly, as far as that's concerned, because the the you know. How do I design these things? Because they just haven't been designed.
(04:52):
you know, as well as we think, and cracks actually do start to show up.
Govindh Jayaraman (04:58):
Yeah. And and you know, one of the things that I think is really interesting is most of your napkins where you've got this line in between have great symmetry between each side.
But in this case the problems are the wrong people and people not getting along, and the solutions
are, you know, adjacent to that, but not like direct like. They're not direct
(05:22):
things and and follow my train of thought. Train people for teamwork. Well.
I think what you're suggesting is that most people just don't understand how to work together as opposed to them, not necessarily being the right.
You know the wrong people.
Michael Walsh (05:38):
So. So you know, rather than actually saying, I've got the wrong people on my team, you know, or or they just can't get along with each other. And you know, maybe we need an outward bound experience or something. So they, you know, bond in, or something. I mean, that's what a lot of people do! But.
Govindh Jayaraman (05:51):
Yeah, this is what people put in pizza carts and stuff like that. This is just ridiculous. It's yeah. They. They just haven't
trained people to work together.
Michael Walsh (05:59):
Correct. And and so they really revolve around this either competence or it's a relationship issue. And sometimes it's just that they don't have to work together because they just sort of have to figure it out, I mean, but
here's the thing we haven't been trained for teamwork.
Okay?
Govindh Jayaraman (06:17):
But wait a minute, Michael. We we do group work at.
you know. If people went to college or university, they've they've done group work there. People played on athletic teams. Sure, they've done teamwork right.
Michael Walsh (06:30):
Percentage of people play on athletic teams.
Govindh Jayaraman (06:34):
The books.
Michael Walsh (06:34):
A lot of people play on the winning athletic teams because there's a lot of people, a lot of personalities on athletic teams. And I gotta tell you. You've got some people that hog the ball.
you know, and other people that actually sit there and let those people on the ball, you know. And but even in school, if you look in in school, everybody's been told. Work hard. Okay, make sure you finish what you start. Okay, do your own work, and whatever you do, don't cheat. Now, what does that mean? Okay, cheating is rely on somebody else to do the parts that are hard for you.
(07:08):
But are were we raised that way.
Govindh Jayaraman (07:11):
Yeah.
Michael Walsh (07:12):
Okay. But but so
building a team is actually a design issue. And really, what you want to do is you want somebody else to do the parts that are hard for you, and you want to do the parts that are hard for them. I mean, it's called complementary strengths. But we've been trained in the opposite. Everybody has to be this thing called a rugged individualist, you know.
And I think Dan Sullivan came up with that term and it's fascinating to to see it. It's like everybody figures they have to have all the skills on their own, because that's what we're trained, you know, if you're looking on somebody else's paper, you're cheating. Okay?
(07:45):
And or if you know you, we've all been on these group projects where one or 2 people do 9, 90% of the work because they're kind of control freaks. They want to go a certain way. And the other people sit back and let them.
Okay. I mean, have you ever had a group? That's 5 people where everybody, you know has done incredible work.
Govindh Jayaraman (08:04):
There you go!
Michael Walsh (08:05):
More than 2 or 3, you know, out of an entire career of going to school, for however many years that was, including college and university and all that stuff, right?
Govindh Jayaraman (08:14):
Yeah.
Michael Walsh (08:14):
So we're we're actually just not trained for teams as far as that side is concerned. So you say, well, there's there's athletic teams. But how many people were on athletic teams versus one individual teams.
Govindh Jayaraman (08:26):
Other part. I love that you said this not just
teams, athletic teams, but winning athletic teams, teams that they understood that different people have different roles, and we have to work together regardless of our roles and talent and skill levels. We still have to work together. And it's in appreciating those roles
and leveraging them, that we actually find success, not the other way around.
Michael Walsh (08:48):
Absolutely, absolutely. And so there's a number of factors okay.
that are at play in team development as far as that's concerned. And one of the most basic in any expertise. Driven field
is getting clear on what you want to achieve.
In other words, setting better goals.
you know what I find is what you measure.
(09:13):
You actually have access to adjust along the way. If you don't measure it, you don't adjust it because you're not even aware that that was an issue at all, we'll say, well, we got the wrong people on the team as opposed to our team's not working very well, because we don't know how to do handoffs. I mean, if you take a look at at, let's take a 4 by 100 track meet, you know, a relay race.
(09:36):
You have 4 individuals, and
what they find is that what they'll do is they'll put the strongest person on the last leg.
They put the second strongest person on the 1st leg. They put the 3rd strongest person on the 3rd leg and the weakest person on the second leg.
Okay, just because I want to start strong. I need to finish strongest, and and the second leg is, if anything happens and I can make it up in the 3rd leg in the 4th leg as I go, but on the shoulders of of you know my second strongest person on the whole team starting the race. I'm in a situation that if there's somebody that sort of loses any ground, I can make it up most easily from the second position. If I lose too much ground in the 1st position. I might have lost the race already before I can get to the second one. Now.
(10:21):
here's a question that I have for you.
There's gonna be 2 questions.
Where do you think the most power
exists in a 4 by 100 relay race.
Govindh Jayaraman (10:33):
The Handoff.
Michael Walsh (10:35):
It's not the most power at all.
Govindh Jayaraman (10:37):
But that's where that's where the win is.
Michael Walsh (10:39):
I'd say that the 2 places I look at for power. Not that I'd ever disagree with you, sir, but the 2 places I look at is the start. If I can get a really strong start, there's power coming out of the blocks. There's power right after the handoff for each position, and then there's what's called the run for the roses the last 50 yards where the person just adrenaline takes over, and because they're at the end of.
Govindh Jayaraman (11:02):
And.
Michael Walsh (11:02):
That's why, if you have, if I've got the strongest person there, I I'll probably get the best last dash.
So that's what I would allege is the power. Now I'm gonna ask a different question. And now you may see where I'm headed here.
Where's the riskiest part.
Govindh Jayaraman (11:18):
Handoff.
Michael Walsh (11:19):
There you go. See? That's not the most powerful. That's the riskiest.
Guess where.
Govindh Jayaraman (11:24):
But I guess what I looked at is the most powerful opportunity, not the most
power, and I was looking at it.
Michael Walsh (11:31):
Account.
Govindh Jayaraman (11:32):
Yeah, I was looking at. I was when you reframed it as physical power. I understood what you said, but the most powerful opportunity to me is the handoff.
Michael Walsh (11:40):
Yeah, well.
Govindh Jayaraman (11:40):
Because that's the greatest delta. That's where the greatest delta exists.
Michael Walsh (11:44):
Because that's where the biggest risk is.
Govindh Jayaraman (11:46):
Exactly.
Michael Walsh (11:47):
And so what happens is, if I'm a little outside the line, or you're a little outside the line, or if we, if if I hand it off too early, or if we go too late, disqualifications all occur. 90% of disqualifications happen at the handoff. The other 10% is at the start line.
Govindh Jayaraman (12:03):
Correct.
Michael Walsh (12:03):
Doesn't happen that often, because you can call one false start, and then they they behave and go on. But I gotta tell you that the the handoff is where disqualifications occur. So that's where people will lose it as opposed to where people can gain it. And if you don't practice the handoff. It doesn't work now in a 4 by 100 relay. They know this.
So guess what? They spend a lot of time doing.
Govindh Jayaraman (12:24):
Well, some nations do.
Michael Walsh (12:27):
The ones that win? Do they practice that handoff? And they.
Govindh Jayaraman (12:30):
But there's a great, but there's a great story right in the last Olympics, where
the country with the greatest sprinters United States didn't place, because the plucky country, without the greatest sprinters
practice in their handoffs, really works at teamwork and won.
Michael Walsh (12:48):
And that Canada.
Yeah. Well, that goes to your point of of where the where the biggest, most powerful opportunity is. I can. Now I can see what you're saying when you talk about the most powerful opportunity, because it's like you practice that the high risk place, and you can take out that risk or mitigate that risk or minimize that risk. All of a sudden, everything else. It changes the whole, the whole thing.
Govindh Jayaraman (13:08):
Or you take what everybody else deems as a weakness into your strength.
Michael Walsh (13:12):
Well, yeah. Well, if you let's put it this way, if if everybody everybody struggles with that piece.
if I learn how to master it. Then, all of a sudden, I take that off the mat and all the rest of it. That'll make up for a little bit of difference in in terms of speed.
Govindh Jayaraman (13:28):
Yeah.
Michael Walsh (13:28):
You know.
So so yeah, it's it's fascinating to see how that part goes. So so
the 1st job. And again, you know, a team that would actually do that has expanded the goal set. They're not just about getting the the last end result or getting the best times for each person. They're actually about different parts of it. So how do I relate that to goals with regards to teams, which is exactly where I'm
(13:53):
diverting this back to myself.
there's 4 different sets of goals that you want to look at. Okay, when you're dealing, for example, with project based work. Okay? Obviously, the 1st one is the achievement of client deliverables.
Okay? And that one we all were pretty good at.
Okay, the second one.
(14:16):
I don't know that you'll be surprised. I don't think you'll be surprised at this. One is the second one is, what are the individual learning Goals or growth goals for each team member.
In other words, in light of what we talked about last time with our with our career development growth plan. I want to use every part of the job in support of people's growth.
(14:38):
Well, projects are no different. So I need to have goals around. How do I want? What is each person gonna learn on this project, and I don't care whether it's a 2 week project or a 6 month project or a 2 year project. What are the different things that somebody has an opportunity to learn from individually. Okay, the 3rd one is,
what are the team goals?
(15:00):
So how do the people want to work with each other to generate the best possible results. So I talk about, you know, and and we talk through different people's respective superpowers. Okay, how they'd like to contribute to accelerate the team. How do I strengthen? You know things and create stronger results overall and for the project for each person and for the team as a whole.
(15:24):
Okay? And then and then the 4th one would be company focused results.
So what are the company's goals from the project.
So there's obviously going to be goals for gross profit achieved. I mean, everybody includes the financial goal. But there's a lot more. So some of the goals could be the growth in reputation. You know, in a project type or in an industry increased internal capabilities collectively. Okay, using the project to help streamline, an internal process, or it could be some other potential goal that moves the company forward.
(15:57):
So I'm looking at more than just the the you know, achieving the client deliverable. I'm looking at that as one but individual learning team goals and then company focused goals as well
as far as that side is concerned. Now, the one thing I will say, there's there's a a gentleman who's actually done a masterful job at actually speaking about all this stuff.
(16:18):
and let me. Just look at. I've got his information here.
I referenced him in the book.
Okay, so I don't have it in this particular edition, but I will get. I believe the gentleman's name is Mark Samuel, and he wrote a book called Reimagine Teams.
And so we're
(16:39):
he goes into a lot more detail about how to break down goals. And as far as that's concerned, and what aspects of team goals to look at. And the guys really done great work on it. And it's definitely a worthy read as far as that's concerned. So I believe it's Mark Samuel. I know.
Govindh Jayaraman (16:56):
Mark, Samuel.
Michael Walsh (16:57):
Yeah, and reimagine teams is. It's a great book. And again, there's a lot of things to talk about teams. But he looks at different dimensions of how to design them from a design perspective to get that. So so you know, when you're taking a look at the types of goals, when I say goals for the team, he puts that thing on steroids.
Govindh Jayaraman (17:16):
And and I think one of one of the phrases that he uses is
traditional. Team building doesn't work and hasn't for decades, if ever. So I think that's pretty compelling. And and the last point that you have here is building in mentoring support for each team member.
Michael Walsh (17:32):
Yes. Well, cause here's the here's the thing about this is that.
see, here's the risk that people make. Or here's the here's the difficulty that they run into when they're doing this.
As a company grows, it gets more squirrely because you got so many different people. And and what happens is that it's really hard to measure results. When I'm small, I can measure results because I can see the results of the team. And if I've only got one or 2 teams. They're not going to go that far, and I can see what each person's contribution to the team effort and to the client. Result is. So I can actually measure performance and things like that using that model.
(18:07):
When I, when I break into a larger number of teams and people are sort of, you know, forming and breaking up and then reforming with each new project. It's really hard to actually go there. And so what I end up doing is going to competency models. And what a competency model is is. It's a model where you actually measure somebody's attributes and what against what you expect them to
(18:31):
at a certain level of development. So just using engineering for an example, when somebody's learning how to become a Png, a professional engineer, they, one of the the things I saw was it had 7 different levels.
And in each of these different levels there's a bunch of different competencies earlier. Well, some of it is problem solving. Some of it is conflict, resolution. Some of it is their interaction with others, their communication skills and all that stuff. And it's across a broad spectrum. But there's a different level of growth needed for each different level of engineering. Like, you know, if I get to an E 2 versus an E, 3 versus an E. 4. Well, the problem is is that if you and I are both engineers, that means we both have to have the same level of skills
(19:15):
in the same areas, to the same degrees, to be at the same level.
except you may be strong at one thing, and I may be strong at something different. And unless we're both strong at these things, we're not going to get the same pay. So what happens is, they've gone away from a results model just because it's too complex to track.
And they go to this competency model. And frankly, what happens is they start to actually have us be interchangeable. Okay, the minute you start to have conformity, you start to lose the uniqueness of each person, and you actually harm the team. And so, and if we're completely interchangeable, you've literally lost that X factor of the human element within a project where you're really not
(19:56):
tapping the magic that each person has to bring. As far as that's concerned.
We know that teams generate results if they're done well, and teams of complementary strengths generate those. So if I can keep a team model even as I grow, and I found ways to actually support the measurement and and support of people in their learning. I mean, we've got the individual project plans or sorry the individual career development plans. You know, people will actually plan their projects. But if I can dovetail their work on a team with
(20:30):
that actual growth plan. I'm in a situation where I maybe I can keep teamwork that I know has worked at lower levels. I can keep that as a as a you know, stable part as I grow. And so the way to do that what I found is that, you know, we've got 2 structural supports that that are there. And there's actually lots of them. But I've identified 2 that that I talk about in the book.
(20:51):
and that's one is project teams based on what I call a homeroom model.
Okay? So when I was in high school
at least a year or 2 ago.
Yeah, whatever the
Govindh Jayaraman (21:08):
A couple years ago.
Michael Walsh (21:10):
It is at least so. So when I was in high school, you know what I had a bunch of different classes. So I had a schedule that that had me at 8 different classes through a thing, you know, through the the course of a day, and I've seen other other schools where they'd have them in more intense blocks, and they might only have 4. But the bottom line is they're switching between different classes, and you'd each follow your own schedule as far as that's concerned.
(21:32):
But we're we're always checking in a home room.
and the homeroom wasn't any one of the classes. It was just a place where they take attendance, and they do announcements. And they, you know, there's a number of things they do in a homeroom environment. If there's any special things they have to hand out, or any special messages they deal with, they they deal them in the home room. So if if I've got a homeroom plus a project team that my home room leader could actually
(21:54):
watch my growth while I go back and forth between different projects and the homeroom leader, if you want to call it, or the equivalent of my homeroom teacher could actually follow my development.
So that's 1 model we've actually used quite successfully with people is use this project team plus homeroom model.
Okay, to actually support them. The other one is to actually have a mentoring program that's not based in home rooms, but where people are actually assigned a mentor
(22:22):
and the mentors actually. And then one of the things about a mentor is they can't be your direct boss, or they cannot be your boss's boss. In other words, they've got to be somebody that's not directly tied to your ability to perform on your projects. So then they can truly be a mentor.
They can really be support to you, not just trying to drive you to get a better result. And so we've actually set up that model as well. And so what happens is, somebody gets a different perspective from somebody who's working either in a different part of the company or a different team. But you know, quite often they're obviously more established, and they've got more experience. The mentors than the Mentees do so, they're there to grow the people, and then they either use outside mentors, or they might
(23:05):
have a senior partner who actually supports some of the more senior mentors as far as that's concerned. So either a project based plus homeroom setup or a mentoring system that that's not necessarily based in a homeroom. But that's independently devised. We've actually used both of those quite successfully, and those are only 2. I mean, there's a number of there's a number of other ways that people can do it. I mean, there's things called matrix management. There's a bunch of other
(23:30):
tools that people use for. How do I actually allow teams to continue to be present and generate results and still get the information, but also still find ways to support the individuals, even though they're changing between and among different teams.
Govindh Jayaraman (23:47):
Okay, sure with all of that in mind.
Michael Walsh (23:50):
Yes.
Govindh Jayaraman (23:50):
Why do we need to focus on teams.
Michael Walsh (23:54):
I guess teams actually are what allow you to generate collective results that are larger than any single individual can have, and frankly, the lion's share of your major results are going to come through teams, and if you do teams well, everything else goes really smoothly, and if I can keep it to teams rather than going to some sort of a competency matrix competency matrix. Actually, quite often, quite often, goes to bureaucratic systems. And I start to lose the uniqueness of each person.
(24:22):
If I can continue to tap the uniqueness of each person. My cost effectiveness is way way stronger. It's easier to give people bigger raises. It's easier to actually have people supported in their growth.
It, you know, that's another version of
really integrating the various aspects of what can happen? Because I'm I'm tapping the power of something that I'm already good at at a smaller size.
Govindh Jayaraman (24:49):
And we don't really know how to work in a team.
And this is something that people need to understand. Like we need to learn how to work as a team. We need to teach each other how to work as a team. We need to
practice how we work as a team, because those things are not part of what we learn.
Michael Walsh (25:08):
You know, and one of the things about that actually just mentioning it.
We say we don't have time to practice, you know, who practices.
Govindh Jayaraman (25:19):
Who.
Michael Walsh (25:20):
One of 2 things we actually
actually, I'll say one of 3 things, one when it's late from death.
Fire departments practice constantly.
Okay military. They practice constantly. The navy seals practice constantly. Different people practice constantly where there's life and death involved police forces. They quite often they've got setups where they practice the things, certainly for swat teams and things like that. Now you can say, well, we're constantly at work. We're, you know. We don't have time to stop in like a fire department. They're waiting between fires. Okay.
(25:54):
Second place, you see, it is in sports teams.
because how they work with each other has a huge impact on whether this goes well or not, and the more money on the line the more they practice as teams and the winning teams. Actually, you can tell who actually practices as a team or who's a series of individuals? Okay? And the 3rd place is where it may not be life and death. But the stakes are really high, depending on on how well this goes. And I'm the thing I'm thinking of is orchestras.
(26:21):
and I'm thinking of ballet where you've got multiple players in a ballet. And I'm also thinking of plays.
you know, when people put on a play, it's it's what's the cadence of how people work together. So again, lots of practice, as far as that's concerned. But the truth is, we're not going 24, 7 at least we don't need to be. And if we actually debrief, and we see how we did. And I mean, there's many ways to practice. So if we can actually integrate that into how we did like, who does? It's interesting, because in in in
(26:53):
Canada we quite often talk about a debrief in the Uk. They talk about a wash up a wash up is the is the British version of a debrief what we call, you know so, and in the Us. They talk about a post-mortem.
So so it's interesting. The language is different. But it's the same thing. It's taking a look and seeing what can we learn from what we just did?
(27:13):
And then how do we want to do it this time? And so, if I combine it with both the individual goals, and also the goals for how the team works together. You know, how do I do those handoffs? How do I? Where are the tough spots. How do we talk about problems
in a team? And this is where Samuel goes right into those kinds of things again, Guy does phenomenal job. My job wasn't to replicate what he's doing. It's more just to acknowledge that there's lots here, and there's way too much to ignore.
(27:41):
So.
Govindh Jayaraman (27:41):
And that's the point I wanted to get to that. There's way too much to ignore around focusing on teams. And this is something that needs to be done. And
again, if you do it and integrate it into what you're doing, it doesn't take much time.
and it has high high value.
Michael Walsh (28:01):
And I I freedom as well, because if your teams are clicking you have a life back.
Govindh Jayaraman (28:08):
Yeah, absolutely.
Thank you. Michael.
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Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Special Summer Offer: Exclusively on Apple Podcasts, try our Dateline Premium subscription completely free for one month! With Dateline Premium, you get every episode ad-free plus exclusive bonus content.
The Breakfast Club
The World's Most Dangerous Morning Show, The Breakfast Club, With DJ Envy, Jess Hilarious, And Charlamagne Tha God!
Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.