In this powerful return to Paper Napkin Wisdom, the bestselling author of Networking Is Not Working and the new book Let’s Retire Retirement dives into a game-changing mindset shift: what if retirement was never the goal?
Derek is a financial advisor, entrepreneur, community builder, and father. With decades of experience advising high-performing individuals and leading powerful networking communities like Cadre, he’s seen firsthand how many people are grinding through their best years waiting for a someday that may never come. That’s why his napkin—“Let’s Retire Retirement”—is both a provocation and a plan.
“The subtitle of the book is: How to enjoy life to the fullest now and later,” Derek explains. “Because what’s the point of waiting?”
This episode is not about abandoning discipline or long-term planning—it’s about shifting your paradigm. Derek offers a compelling argument that if we keep chasing a future reward at the expense of the present, we may never get the life we actually want.
From Deferred Living to Designed Living
Derek shares how the “retirement” model came from industrial-age thinking—a system that assumed people would be worn out by 65 and needed time to rest. But with rising life expectancy, improved health, and the flexibility of modern work, many high-performers are capable of thriving well into their later years.
“It’s not that I’m anti-retirement,” Derek clarifies, “I’m anti-deferring joy.”
He urges leaders to rethink the way they structure their lives. Instead of slogging through decades to reach a mythical endgame, he encourages micro-retirements, intentional sabbaticals, and rebalancing life now to ensure you’re not just accumulating money—but accumulating moments.
The Mindset Shift That Changes Everything
Derek’s take is deeply personal. As a dad and husband, he’s recalibrated how he spends his time. Rather than front-loading his career and back-loading family, he’s building a life that blends both. He believes this is not only possible—but essential—for entrepreneurs and leaders.
“Why are we so okay with this cultural lie,” he asks, “that the best years of our lives should be sacrificed for the unknown promise of leisure later?”
In his experience coaching and advising leaders, the ones who thrive the longest are those who remain curious, active, and engaged—not those who drop everything at 65.
This episode invites listeners to question deeply held assumptions about success, productivity, and legacy. And Derek doesn’t just share theory—he offers practical ideas you can act on today.
5 Key Takeaways from Derek Coburn – Episode 269
1. Retirement is an outdated concept—design your life instead
"Why are we deferring the good stuff? Let’s build it into our now."
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Govindh Jayaraman (00:02):
Derek Coburn. Welcome to paper! Napkin wisdom! I'm excited to have you here.
Derek Coburn (00:07):
What's gov? How you doing, Bud?
Govindh Jayaraman (00:09):
Really really good, great to see you. So it was really fun. You're one of the very few paper napkin wisdom contributors who've actually keynoted in town here in Ottawa, and we got to have facetime in DC once, and also over here, which is absolutely fantastic. So it's nice to see you. It's also really great that you're a big hockey fan, and your team continues to kick butt in the playoffs and hopefully have a very, very deep run
(00:37):
so congratulations on all that. It's great to see.
Derek Coburn (00:40):
Thanks, man, we'll see. Yeah. Caps are caps. Had a big, surprising year this year. We weren't expecting them to be the one seed in the conference. But here we are.
Govindh Jayaraman (00:47):
Here we are! Here we are! That's why they play the games right?
Derek Coburn (00:51):
Sure.
Govindh Jayaraman (00:51):
So I love what you're doing, and and for those of you don't know.
Derek is a very accomplished author, and he's got a new book coming out, and your napkin is the title of your new book, which is, let's retire retirement.
Why did you share that with me?
Derek Coburn (01:10):
Look. Yeah. So let's retire. Retirement. And the subtitle, by the way, is how to enjoy life to the fullest now and later. Look why I share with you specifically with you. Specifically, I would say.
you have kids who are in your house around you right now, and that may not continue for a whole lot longer, and
(01:36):
I have a 15 year old and a 12 year old, and so I've got about 3 and a half and 5 and a half years respectively left with each of them before they potentially go off to college as well.
And I think one of the many many reasons why I feel like retirement is a bad idea. This idea of I need to do something that I don't fully enjoy.
(01:57):
and I need to make sacrifices along the way, so I can save up enough money by a certain age. So I can stop doing this thing to have the right to sit around and do nothing for 30 years after. That is just a really, it's just a really bad idea. And we're seeing more and more people that get there that come close to hitting their number and being able to retire. And they're going back to work because it's not fulfilling they don't like sitting around doing nothing at all.
(02:22):
But in the short term I feel like the cost is we get focused when we meet with our financial advisor, when we do an online calculator. And we see that we're behind. Or we see that we really need to save more money that comes at the expense of the time with our kids, the time with our significant others, the time with our friends, the time that we could spend taking care of ourselves.
(02:44):
And I think that for me, and I don't know if you feel the same way. But for me, you know, I've got a really nice rhythm to my work, to to what I the way I spend my time professionally right now.
and I'm not looking to get a lot busier in the short term. I'm looking to continue to lean in and expend and spend significant amounts of time with my boys before they fly the coop, and I say that this is sponsored by, if you think, in terms of a sponsorship for an event. This ability to really lean in and spend a lot of time with them is sponsored by the knowing that when my youngest is gone.
(03:21):
sign me up for 50 h weeks again. Sign me up for more speaking gigs. Sign me up to to make more happen, and that money coming in then is going to almost pay for the time that I'm spending with them right now.
Govindh Jayaraman (03:34):
There's so much in what you just said. That's so powerful, Derek, and I want to unpack a little bit about it. A number one is, there's a fuse to it, right? You're sort of like lighting a fuse the time that we spend with our kids right now saying there's you know X amount of time before they go off. And there's really like somebody the other day said something like 80% of the time we have with our kids happens before they're 18 years old.
Derek Coburn (04:00):
93%, 93%. That's insane.
Yeah.
Govindh Jayaraman (04:06):
93% of the time that we have with our kids is before they're 18 years old and everything else after that is downhill. So we've got to maximize it now. So what you're almost doing, what a lot of us do, I think, is we punt we mortgage. We finance the time that we have now for some future time that doesn't come for most of us. Right? So it's based on this false notion.
(04:29):
Isn't that fun?
Yeah, I mean, society has basically told us that we should be prioritizing our working and our earning years at the same time, when our kids probably want us around the most.
Derek Coburn (04:41):
And when we would most enjoy spending time with them, our kids would much rather hang out with us when they're 15 than when they're 45. And it's not to say that that won't happen either. And I really do think that while there are a lot of people that need to hear this message about. You've spent 93% of the time that you're going to spend with your kids by the time they leave and go off to college.
(05:02):
The more that we do that, though, the more time we're going to have later on, right like the more time that I'm spending with my kids, the more time that we have that we're developing shared interests. And we're going to hockey games together. We're going to concerts together. We have things to talk about. One begets the other. We're more likely to have a closer relationship and have more than 7% more with them by the time they leave than if we're not investing in them right now.
Govindh Jayaraman (05:26):
Yeah. And and the other part that I think is so. So let's let's make sure that that point lands the point lands the point that you're making is if we spend the time now before they fly the coop effectively, they're more likely to want to come back and spend time with us later. Right? That's what you're.
Derek Coburn (05:45):
So I would think, so, yeah.
Govindh Jayaraman (05:47):
I think that's logical.
Derek Coburn (05:49):
Yeah, my my north star, if I were to have like, I've got some personal values. But at the top of that list for me the way that I make decisions on a daily basis?
Will this increase or decrease the likelihood that my my kids will want to spend more time with me when they're adults. I run most of what I do through that filter.
(06:09):
and and it's important to me. And and you know, like my my, I adopted a mantra from my from my pastor, which is, I want to be more famous in my own home than I am anywhere else, and in order for that to happen. You have to be home a lot. You can't be traveling as much, you can't be, you know, like, like traveling around the world. You can't be working 70 HA week in my experience, at least for me.
(06:32):
I spend a lot of time with my kids. I'll share a quick example, if I may, from from the book where I talk about
this bedtime routine I had with my boys when they were probably 10 and 7 and my 10 year old. I knew we were getting close to probably him, not wanting to do this anymore, but my wife and I would alternate each night we would lay in bed with them for 10 min and wait for them to fall asleep, and I found myself
(06:57):
talking to myself most nights, thinking, gosh! Would you hurry up and go to bed so I can go have this glass of wine, finish this show, hang out with my wife.
and I'm like he's not going to want to do this anymore. And I tried to force myself to be more present, and that worked a little bit. And then I had this thought one day, and this thought was, What if I'm 65 years old and I find out about a company that invented a Time machine that allows me to travel back in time and have one experience like this with the 10 year old version of my kid.
(07:27):
How much would I pay for that. And look, the answer is the it's quite a bit. But I to quantify it. I called it a $50,000 experience, and I'm like, without a doubt, man. I would. I would. I imagine the 65 year old version of me would stroke a $50,000 check in a heartbeat to have one night snuggling, reading a bedtime story. What have you with the 11 year old version of my kid, who's probably going to be 40 at that time.
(07:50):
So I need to start treating these experiences like they're $50,000 experiences. And even though that time has come and gone, there's a lot of other moments like that that I'm I'm viewing through this this lens of like the Time Machine effect and and treating them like like the way that they deserve to be treated.
Govindh Jayaraman (08:08):
Yeah, you know, the 1st thing that flashed back to me when you said that was all. 3 of our kids used to get this. I love you. Song, and it was me every night I'd list down every single person that loves them, and say, mommy loves you. Daddy loves you, you know, like the family.
Yeah.
the dogs love you. The grandparents love you. It was this thing, and it was just me saying everybody's name, and the kids always called it the I love you song.
(08:36):
and
they would later on in life. They went to other people and say, Oh, did you guys get the love you lullaby, my daughter once said, and they were like, What are you talking about?
And my daughter remembered it.
Derek Coburn (08:49):
Hmm.
Govindh Jayaraman (08:49):
No like, that's not a song.
It's our real thing.
And they were like, What what are you talking about? All of us got it all the time.
Derek Coburn (08:59):
Yeah.
Govindh Jayaraman (08:59):
Every night.
and and I would love for my kids to want that again while I kneel beside the bed, and I and and I do that with them. I'm getting teary just thinking about it right.
Derek Coburn (09:13):
Yeah, man we are. Gonna
we're going to miss them when they're gone, man and I and I know. And I believe that the next phase will be different and better and different. And we'll enjoy that, too. And we're going to. Really, miss, we're going to really miss having them in the house when they're gone.
Govindh Jayaraman (09:28):
Yeah, the other thing. That's part of what you said.
So part of it is the kids. But the other part of it is this boredom, this, like people delaying gratification to this point of time, this retirement point of time, where my life is, gonna be good.
but that that often ends up being highly disappointing for a lot of people, doesn't it?
Derek Coburn (09:51):
Yeah. You know, there's a big, this big unretirement movement where over 25% of all people who have quote unquote retired are looking to come back to work and are going back to work, and some of them are doing it for the money, but a lot of them are doing it because they missed the connection.
They miss the interaction with other humans, they miss being able to contribute. I talk a little bit about the difference between chasing happiness and chasing meaning and look if somebody hates what they do for a living, I don't want them to do it any longer, and I certainly don't expect them to hear what I'm saying and think
(10:24):
like, yeah, great idea, Derek, like you want me to do this even longer than I than I have to do it, and I'm sure sitting on a beach with a fruity alcoholic beverage
is going to be better than doing a job that you don't hate, but I don't think it's going to last very long, and I don't think it's going to be a lasting happiness if you will. There was a study done.
(10:44):
Barbara Fredrickson, I think, is the researcher, and she divided up people that were that into into half. If half the people were focused on prioritizing happiness. What will make me happy? The other half were focused on prioritizing meaning, meaning, what? What can I contribute to the world at large?
And she hooked them up to brain monitors, heart monitors, and people that were prioritizing happiness were not doing very well at all. Their bodies had a response
(11:16):
that was very similar to the type of response our bodies have when it's dealing with a chronic adversity like the loss of a loved one. The loss of a job inflammation markers went through the roof. Your immunity went down.
People that were prioritizing happiness were much more likely to get sick and to get diseases than people who were prioritizing meaning. So in a roundabout, ironic sort of way, the key to being happy is to really, not chase happiness. It's to think about. What can I do to contribute to the world at large? What can I do to show up and and share my gifts and my talents and my skills with the world.
(11:51):
and that's going to eventually make me happier than I would be if I was just prioritizing happiness.
Govindh Jayaraman (11:57):
And you're not saying that there's a 1 size fits all version of that either. Derek, right? Like what gives me meaning might be different than what gives you meaning that gives somebody else meaning. You're not judging what people pick to get meaning to. But that's the part of it. And I really think that's the
it's a bit of a failure of the hedgehog principle, right? Because they said
(12:18):
purpose, financial. You know, the financial vehicle or the money machine and happiness. And it's that intersection that makes it. Happiness is not part of that equation. It's purpose. And yeah, having an economic engine behind it is useful. And if people are really really good and highly highly skilled at something, and are getting well compensated for it, they're usually pretty happy.
(12:42):
right? They're usually pretty content because you go all day being told you're good at something and getting paid well enough for it. You're going to be happy. So happiness is not something that that
is anything other than the outcome of doing other things that give you meaning right? So.
Derek Coburn (12:58):
You. Probably you probably have seen, like some of the data research on flow States by Mikhail Ciczentmihai. And you know, he basically was able to prove that, like people are their happiest when they're lost in time. They're they're engaged in work that they enjoy doing. That's challenging, that's going to contribute to to something bigger than themselves. And that really, that really is the the pinnacle, for for you know, being and feeling happy.
Govindh Jayaraman (13:22):
So how does this apply? How does this model? How does this? Let's retire. Retirement work for someone who's in their forties or fifties, you know, there are entrepreneurs listening to this right now, Derek, and they're like.
Oh, shit like I've got 2 kids in college.
Derek Coburn (13:37):
Yep.
Govindh Jayaraman (13:37):
I'm dealing with 7%.
Derek Coburn (13:39):
Yep.
Govindh Jayaraman (13:40):
So what do you say to them.
Derek Coburn (13:42):
And what do you? And when you say that, what do you mean? They feel like it's not attainable. They feel like it is.
Govindh Jayaraman (13:46):
They feel like they've missed the boat.
Derek Coburn (13:49):
I see what you're saying.
you know, in terms of, in terms of the way that it applies to their kids.
Govindh Jayaraman (13:55):
Or themselves in any way.
Derek Coburn (13:57):
Yeah.
So look, we've got, we've got health. We've got relationships. We've got friendships we've got. You know, the last chapter of my book. I call it investing in you, and I talk about
all of the things that I think we should be investing in, knowing that we're going to work a little bit longer, and and one of them is like, I think we're in a fun recession right now. I think that like 99% of adults are not even coming close to having an appropriate amount of fun like just going out and enjoying life more, you know. So you know, I would say that I wrote this book more for people like in their forties and fifties, and maybe thirties.
(14:31):
more so than the people that have already arrived, if you will, because I want to inspire them to make different choices and live their lives a little bit differently. But what I'm showing people is that by working longer by planning to extend the time that you're working. It might not be what you're doing now. You might not be working 60 HA week. You might be doing something else that you enjoy a little bit more
(14:55):
on your terms the way you want to do it. It's bringing in some money. But that little bit of money that you're gonna bring in now, beyond what you were thinking you were going to bring in
means you don't have to save as much for retirement. That means you now have more time and more money that you get to spend on different things right now. So you can. You can justify more easily, you know, going flying to see your kid at college, taking your wife on more dates, you know, hitting the gym, not skipping family dinners going to a great concert, fill in the blank with the rest of it. But that's what I really want people to realize is
(15:31):
when they're focused on saving a number for a certain age. They're not. They're not properly accounting for the work that they're likely going to want to do beyond the age that everyone's telling them they're going to want to stop.
Govindh Jayaraman (15:42):
Yeah. What you just said reminds me of a friend of mine who owns a really great chain of restaurants, and he used to be a sommelier in New York, and and, you know, comes at wine really, naturally, and I like good wine. So I remember asking him. I said, You know I've got some
some good old bottles of wine. When when do I know? Is the right time to drink it?
(16:05):
And he goes now now's always the right time, like when you think of it, that's the right time. And his point was.
it's not generating anything for you. It's not generating what you think it means to you. I'm like, Yeah, there are professional collectors that are doing great things, and that's different. But if you're at home and you've bought something. Enjoy it, because how you enjoy it is more important than just keeping it on the shelf. And you're sort of saying the same thing right? Take it off the shelf, enjoy it, have the fun, have the moment, share the moment, and then get another one. Later.
Derek Coburn (16:43):
Yep, I love that man. Yep, big time.
Govindh Jayaraman (16:46):
So. So tell me.
is this something that you had to learn for yourself? Cause you're you're a pretty balanced guy like you've always, to me, at least from what I've seen.
you've been a very balanced person in terms of managing the amount of time you put in work versus in family? Or is this something that you had to learn the hard way.
Derek Coburn (17:06):
So I don't know if you know this about me, but I've been a financial advisor for 27 years. I sold my wealth management firm in 2019 to a Private Equity Company, had a bit of an earn out. I still have the practice, but it's just a handful of clients that I've been working with for a long time that I continue to enjoy working with.
When I realized that the best thing that I'd done collectively for the majority of my clients was help them come to the realization that they weren't going to be happy sitting around doing nothing. Anyone that's listening to this. If they've ever met with a financial advisor, I'm going to bet good money that the Financial Advisor never said, do you want to retire?
(17:44):
The Financial advisor said, What age do you want to retire? You were automatically opted into it. You had to come up with a number. If you didn't have a number off the top of your head. We'll all forgive you for that. But they were probably quick to say, Why don't you just pick 65, because that's the age that everyone else picks, or maybe 67, or maybe 62. And then you just go into this autopilot mode of Oh, my gosh! I'm behind
(18:08):
the curve, and I need to figure out a way to come up with saving this money, and I don't know what I'm going to do. I share a story in my book about
a fictitious guy named Tony. Tony's 45 years old. I'll share it quickly with you, minus all the dramatic flair. Tony's 45 years old. He makes $150,000 a year, and he has $150,000 saved up for retirement. Now, you can add a 0 to that. You can. You can make it. Whatever number you want. The percentages. And what I'm about to share will will basically be the same.
(18:39):
So, Tony, if Tony wants to stop working at 65, and 20 years, most of the financial advisors, the models, the things that you do the calculators that you use online tell him that he needs to save $2,400 a month in order to make it happen. $2,400 a month when you're making $150,000 a year is almost 20% of what you're making, and is more or less a nonstarter for most people. That would mean that you're essentially living on just a little bit more than what you're saving.
(19:07):
If Tony decides, he's gonna work until he's 75 instead of 65. The amount that he has to save goes from 2,400 down to $110 per month. It goes down by 96%. So you can just
feel the sigh relief that a lot of people feel and experience when I explain this to them, because we've all read, and we've all seen these articles that say, well, you should have saved a lot more when you were 23 to take advantage of compounding interest, and we feel stupid because we didn't do that. Not that we were making a lot of money then, anyways. But there's not a lot of articles that talk about the same benefits, but even more dramatically affecting you, because it's such a higher number
(19:49):
that you can achieve by just extending it on the back end a little bit. And so look, that's maybe an extreme example for some people going from 65 to 75. But if Tony were to say, I'll work until I'm 70. The number goes from 2,400 down to 600 a month. So it's a 75% reduction. So I've been having these conversations with my clients for 25 years in an industry where no one else is having them. No one else really seems to be interested in having them.
(20:18):
And I think, while I don't think that there is a big conspiracy, I don't think that there is a room in the sky with a bunch of evil people that have gathered together to try to make people miserable.
The one thing to keep in mind is that it really goes against the financial interest of a financial advisor to have this conversation, because if you think about it, if a financial advisor has 300 Tony's that they're working with. And they have this conversation and all 300. Tony's say, Okay, this makes sense. I don't want to do this anymore.
(20:49):
The financial Advisor just took a 95% pay cut, because now they're saving a lot less money on an annual basis compared to what they would have been saving if they bought into this traditional retirement.
Govindh Jayaraman (21:00):
Yeah. So do you know, I'm rethinking what I thought the best sales pitch ever was.
Derek Coburn (21:09):
Okay.
Govindh Jayaraman (21:10):
So. So you know this best sell the best advertising campaign ever in the history of the world has been documented as being the Beers.
Derek Coburn (21:19):
Oh, oh, okay. Cool.
Govindh Jayaraman (21:20):
To De Beers, the the Diamond Company.
Derek Coburn (21:23):
You know what I've heard? I've heard. I believe you, and I've also heard people say that it's the home ownership and the American dream of owning your own house has been dubbed as that, too. But tell your the beer story.
Govindh Jayaraman (21:34):
So the De Beer story was prior to the De Beers campaign. The average price in a diamond engagement ring was a thousand dollars.
Derek Coburn (21:43):
No.
Govindh Jayaraman (21:43):
Inflation adjusted. $1,000. Right?
They came up with a 3 month salary, guideline.
and the 3 month salary guideline was. You take your salary times 3. That becomes so. That changed the expectations. They told everybody. Nobody talked about how much, how much people should. How much should you spend on a diamond engagement ring nobody knew.
So they went out and told everybody.
Derek Coburn (22:03):
Yeah.
Govindh Jayaraman (22:03):
Could expect
3 months, and it and and the average price of the engagement ring went up by more than 10 x
immediately following the campaign, and has.
Derek Coburn (22:16):
Hmm.
Govindh Jayaraman (22:17):
At that level or higher inflation adjusted since
most successful average single advertising campaign ever in the history. Now you're making me rethink that because
this is really an advertising campaign, isn't it? It's an advertising campaign around. When do you want to retire? Great? Well, let's do the math. Let's reverse engineer when you want to retire, what income you want to have. And blah blah blah, presuming, by the way, that you're going to do nothing and earn nothing right. They're they're filling in the blanks for you all of those things.
(22:51):
So this is this is a sales pitch, and you don't have to buy that sales pitch is really what you're saying.
Derek Coburn (22:57):
Well, they're they're letting you fill in the blanks. But nobody's qualified to predict what inflation is going to be every year for the next 25 years. What tax rates are going to be for the next 25 years? What your rate of return is going to be on an annual basis, whether your kids are going to get married and whether you're going to fund their wedding. And oh, by the way, what age are you going to die. You have to. You have to predict all of these things perfectly. It's almost like an
(23:22):
like an 8 leg parlay that you have to, that you have to nail in order to
properly, you know, identify the amount that you have to save for retirement, and and no one's qualified to do that. But we're living our lives like we're going to win this 8 leg parlay. And we're making all these sacrifices along the way in order to make it happen. And I mean, like, even if you get everything right, I'll just share, like the preposterous of
(23:49):
the the preposterous nature of this game. Right is, let's say that you get it right up until the time you're 64 years old, and you just are one year and 1 7% return away in the stock market from you being able to hit your number and retire. And that's the year the stock market goes down. 20%. Then what do you do now like. Now, do you work an extra 6 years or 7 years? And I think you know, along those lines I've got clients that have
(24:14):
that have. Most of them have a lot of money, and a lot of them are still doing some type of work, and they're not making a ton. But they're doing some type of work, and I've got some clients that aren't doing any work at all, and and the one, even though either one of them in either category could spend as much money as they wanted to, and really never have to worry about running out of money. The people that are still earning an income, spend their money in
(24:39):
so much more of a carefree way, just knowing that they still have money coming in, and they're not in the mode of oh, now it's only coming out. So they're enjoying their money a lot more by extending the time that they're working as well. It's a big psychological factor for many people.
Govindh Jayaraman (24:54):
Yeah, I don't know about you, but I've always had the feeling. I mean, I love what I do. I love what I've done. I love the people that I've interacted with, and I've never imagined myself
walking in circles around my neighborhood forever, or sleeping until noon every single day like I'd like that idea of not doing anything
(25:16):
scares me.
Yeah, I like I. So I'm so disinterested in it that I find it terrifying.
Derek Coburn (25:23):
Yup!
Govindh Jayaraman (25:24):
Is that is that similar to you.
Derek Coburn (25:26):
I think so. But again, I think that you could move from terrified of not doing anything to like. I see the way that you show up, and I see the way that you
run this show and run businesses, and and I think you do it mostly from a place of you know, enjoyment like you like doing it. You love the game you love the value that you're adding. I think you would be okay, and I think it makes sense for a lot of people. Look, I
(25:49):
look. I hit pause on my life after I sold my practice again, in part knowing that I was never going to stop working that I didn't have this number that I had to hit, and I got to like focus on some childhood trauma. I got to focus on some things that were running in the background for me and and and and you know, maybe like for a lot of people with this fear of not doing anything or not contributing. Maybe that's
(26:13):
maybe that's part of it. But but ultimately I just think that people are just not going to be happy or fulfilled, sitting around doing nothing for an extended period of time.
Govindh Jayaraman (26:22):
Yeah. And then you add on top of it that we're all I mean.
just health science is what it is. We're going to live longer.
Derek Coburn (26:29):
Yep.
Govindh Jayaraman (26:30):
In the future than we think we're going to live.
We're gonna and that's that's another part of it. Right? Do we.
Derek Coburn (26:36):
Big time.
Govindh Jayaraman (26:37):
Do we want to do? We want to be
doing something we love right until the end. I mean, I watch my parents. My parents are so living a life of meaning.
they they are really active in a variety of community groups and Yoga groups and spiritual groups around the Hindu Federation here in Canada and other things. They're just so active.
(26:58):
and they're so happy, being
they see no other way for them other than to continue to do those things, I mean, in fact, they're busier than they've ever been, and I.
Derek Coburn (27:07):
No, it's great!
Govindh Jayaraman (27:08):
I love watching that so so that fun, recession. Look, I'm all about
giving people a place to start. And yet your book
is a great place to start. But what would you say for the person listening? Who's who's running a business? Who's who's doing the 60 h weeks? Who's who's trading time right now, what would you say to them?
(27:31):
Where do they start.
Derek Coburn (27:33):
To have more fun.
Govindh Jayaraman (27:35):
Yeah.
Derek Coburn (27:36):
Look so I think
I would approach them the same way that I would approach somebody that hasn't worked out in 5 years. I don't think that a good way to kick off your your lack of having fun for an extended period of time is to go on an extravagant trip with, you know, lots of lots of energy and lots of stimulation, like I would tell the person that hasn't worked out in a long time to let's plan to go to the gym once or twice a week for a few weeks and shake off the cobwebs and start eating a little bit better, and I would tell the person that
(28:07):
that tells me that the last time they had fun was 3 months ago, when they went out with another couple, and they had a bottle of wine, and they talked about their kids, and it was an hour and a half, and then they went home. I would tell them. Look, you know, maybe we find a local concert to go to. Maybe you find a stand up comedy, a stand-up comedian to visit and to go see, there's a term called collective effervescence. That's been that was invented about a hundred years ago, and it essentially says that the
(28:38):
the way that you can achieve the most joy while we are in these human suits is to experience this collective effervescence, which is a combination of being in a flowed state
with a lot of other people who are experiencing the same thing that you are experiencing. Right? So for me, live music concerts and stand up. Comedy are the best ways that we can access fun. Some people say sports, I think sports are great. I love sports. You love sports.
(29:08):
The reason I would put sports in a different category is, look, man, there's a 50% chance that you're going to be unhappy at the end of a sports game right? Like I'm never! I'm never going to be unhappy. I go to see a band that I love. It's not like the guitar player is going to, you know. Go. Oh, for 9 from the 3 point line, and I'm going to leave, you know, because they stopped their set an hour early. That's not happening. But that's when the good moments of sports happen. That's why they're so good, because everyone's feeling it
(29:35):
all at once. So look, there's there's a great app called bands in town that you can sync up with your spotify account. It'll take a look at all the artists that you listen to and make recommendations for other bands that are coming into town that you might like. There's hopefully there's some kind of
place to see. Stand up comedy where you are, but if if those are not an option, then look even just reconnecting with an old friend, or groups of friends or people, that you can go out and spend a little bit of time with
(30:04):
like, I really do believe that when we're doing all this work, we're working on our business and working on ourselves, and everyone's talking about the work that we're doing. It wouldn't surprise me if our bodies, our mind, our spirits, were just like, you know what like. You are never showing us a good time. So why are we going to fall in line and conform and do all this
work stuff that you want to do all the time?
Govindh Jayaraman (30:26):
Yeah, I love that. I love that. And I love the idea of starting small. And I love that you gave people this really easy way of reconnecting with what they find fun.
Derek, there's a member of the paper Napkin Wisdom Community, who passed away suddenly earlier this year. His name is John Rulan. You were close to him. John gave us a great napkin, and we've been asking people to pay forward his legacy, his memory, and his inspiration by ending with gratitude. His napkin to us was what appreciate, appreciates.
(31:01):
what you appreciate, appreciates. So who or what would you like to appreciate today?
Derek Coburn (31:06):
Yeah, I'm really glad that you're doing this. John was such a great soul who left us way too soon. I was at his funeral, and I replay a lot of the video messages that he's sent me and go back and visit those. And I,
you know, was gifted by him like a lot of knives. We used him and his company giftology to provide gifts, and we still do. We still use them for a lot of our clients and a lot of our friends. And so I've been doing a lot more cooking lately, and I think about John almost every day when I'm in the kitchen, you know, preparing food. So it's really cool that you're doing this.
(31:46):
Look. I just want to give a shout out to to my wife, Melanie. You know we we have this incredible relationship, this incredible marriage. And in particular, you and I were talking about this before we started chatting, but she was able to.
She worked for the redskins, now commanders for a long time, and left when she started, her and I started our our community cadre together.
(32:12):
and she was able to spend a good part of the Covid lockdown, you know, standing up for a lot of the women that experienced sexual abuse and trauma and harassment, you know, at the hands of the leadership and the ownership of that team, and she everywhere, from testifying in front of Congress to being on the today show and other news outlets and writing OP-eds for big publications, and she just really
(32:36):
poured a lot into it, and she gave our boys a front row seat of what it looks like to stand up, you know, for the little guy and and her and a few other women man. They took down a billionaire. I was just really proud of her and and her willingness to sacrifice her own comfort and her own needs for the betterment of the world, and so many other women who are living in unfortunate and working in unfortunate situations. So yeah, she's she's my number one hero of many, and love, giving her a shout out and praise whenever I can.
Govindh Jayaraman (33:06):
Yeah. Well, I I we did talk about it beforehand, because it was amazing to me to not only.
Derek Coburn (33:15):
See her.
Govindh Jayaraman (33:17):
Become such a champion for so many women without a voice. But I loved watching you support her too. So it was just. It was a beautiful thing.
Derek. It's always special to spend time with you.
Derek Coburn (33:32):
Likewise. Man, I miss you, man, hopefully. We can do the in person thing again sometime soon.
Govindh Jayaraman (33:37):
Yeah, I look forward to it.
Derek Coburn (33:39):
Thanks for having me. Man.
Govindh Jayaraman (33:40):
Thank you.
Derek Coburn. Welcome to paper! Napkin wisdom! I'm excited to have you here.
Derek Coburn (00:07):
What's gov? How you doing, Bud?
Govindh Jayaraman (00:09):
Really really good, great to see you. So it was really fun. You're one of the very few paper napkin wisdom contributors who've actually keynoted in town here in Ottawa, and we got to have facetime in DC once, and also over here, which is absolutely fantastic. So it's nice to see you. It's also really great that you're a big hockey fan, and your team continues to kick butt in the playoffs and hopefully have a very, very deep run
(00:37):
so congratulations on all that. It's great to see.
Derek Coburn (00:40):
Thanks, man, we'll see. Yeah. Caps are caps. Had a big, surprising year this year. We weren't expecting them to be the one seed in the conference. But here we are.
Govindh Jayaraman (00:47):
Here we are! Here we are! That's why they play the games right?
Derek Coburn (00:51):
Sure.
Govindh Jayaraman (00:51):
So I love what you're doing, and and for those of you don't know.
Derek is a very accomplished author, and he's got a new book coming out, and your napkin is the title of your new book, which is, let's retire retirement.
Why did you share that with me?
Derek Coburn (01:10):
Look. Yeah. So let's retire. Retirement. And the subtitle, by the way, is how to enjoy life to the fullest now and later. Look why I share with you specifically with you. Specifically, I would say.
you have kids who are in your house around you right now, and that may not continue for a whole lot longer, and
(01:36):
I have a 15 year old and a 12 year old, and so I've got about 3 and a half and 5 and a half years respectively left with each of them before they potentially go off to college as well.
And I think one of the many many reasons why I feel like retirement is a bad idea. This idea of I need to do something that I don't fully enjoy.
(01:57):
and I need to make sacrifices along the way, so I can save up enough money by a certain age. So I can stop doing this thing to have the right to sit around and do nothing for 30 years after. That is just a really, it's just a really bad idea. And we're seeing more and more people that get there that come close to hitting their number and being able to retire. And they're going back to work because it's not fulfilling they don't like sitting around doing nothing at all.
(02:22):
But in the short term I feel like the cost is we get focused when we meet with our financial advisor, when we do an online calculator. And we see that we're behind. Or we see that we really need to save more money that comes at the expense of the time with our kids, the time with our significant others, the time with our friends, the time that we could spend taking care of ourselves.
(02:44):
And I think that for me, and I don't know if you feel the same way. But for me, you know, I've got a really nice rhythm to my work, to to what I the way I spend my time professionally right now.
and I'm not looking to get a lot busier in the short term. I'm looking to continue to lean in and expend and spend significant amounts of time with my boys before they fly the coop, and I say that this is sponsored by, if you think, in terms of a sponsorship for an event. This ability to really lean in and spend a lot of time with them is sponsored by the knowing that when my youngest is gone.
(03:21):
sign me up for 50 h weeks again. Sign me up for more speaking gigs. Sign me up to to make more happen, and that money coming in then is going to almost pay for the time that I'm spending with them right now.
Govindh Jayaraman (03:34):
There's so much in what you just said. That's so powerful, Derek, and I want to unpack a little bit about it. A number one is, there's a fuse to it, right? You're sort of like lighting a fuse the time that we spend with our kids right now saying there's you know X amount of time before they go off. And there's really like somebody the other day said something like 80% of the time we have with our kids happens before they're 18 years old.
Derek Coburn (04:00):
93%, 93%. That's insane.
Yeah.
Govindh Jayaraman (04:06):
93% of the time that we have with our kids is before they're 18 years old and everything else after that is downhill. So we've got to maximize it now. So what you're almost doing, what a lot of us do, I think, is we punt we mortgage. We finance the time that we have now for some future time that doesn't come for most of us. Right? So it's based on this false notion.
(04:29):
Isn't that fun?
Yeah, I mean, society has basically told us that we should be prioritizing our working and our earning years at the same time, when our kids probably want us around the most.
Derek Coburn (04:41):
And when we would most enjoy spending time with them, our kids would much rather hang out with us when they're 15 than when they're 45. And it's not to say that that won't happen either. And I really do think that while there are a lot of people that need to hear this message about. You've spent 93% of the time that you're going to spend with your kids by the time they leave and go off to college.
(05:02):
The more that we do that, though, the more time we're going to have later on, right like the more time that I'm spending with my kids, the more time that we have that we're developing shared interests. And we're going to hockey games together. We're going to concerts together. We have things to talk about. One begets the other. We're more likely to have a closer relationship and have more than 7% more with them by the time they leave than if we're not investing in them right now.
Govindh Jayaraman (05:26):
Yeah. And and the other part that I think is so. So let's let's make sure that that point lands the point lands the point that you're making is if we spend the time now before they fly the coop effectively, they're more likely to want to come back and spend time with us later. Right? That's what you're.
Derek Coburn (05:45):
So I would think, so, yeah.
Govindh Jayaraman (05:47):
I think that's logical.
Derek Coburn (05:49):
Yeah, my my north star, if I were to have like, I've got some personal values. But at the top of that list for me the way that I make decisions on a daily basis?
Will this increase or decrease the likelihood that my my kids will want to spend more time with me when they're adults. I run most of what I do through that filter.
(06:09):
and and it's important to me. And and you know, like my my, I adopted a mantra from my from my pastor, which is, I want to be more famous in my own home than I am anywhere else, and in order for that to happen. You have to be home a lot. You can't be traveling as much, you can't be, you know, like, like traveling around the world. You can't be working 70 HA week in my experience, at least for me.
(06:32):
I spend a lot of time with my kids. I'll share a quick example, if I may, from from the book where I talk about
this bedtime routine I had with my boys when they were probably 10 and 7 and my 10 year old. I knew we were getting close to probably him, not wanting to do this anymore, but my wife and I would alternate each night we would lay in bed with them for 10 min and wait for them to fall asleep, and I found myself
(06:57):
talking to myself most nights, thinking, gosh! Would you hurry up and go to bed so I can go have this glass of wine, finish this show, hang out with my wife.
and I'm like he's not going to want to do this anymore. And I tried to force myself to be more present, and that worked a little bit. And then I had this thought one day, and this thought was, What if I'm 65 years old and I find out about a company that invented a Time machine that allows me to travel back in time and have one experience like this with the 10 year old version of my kid.
(07:27):
How much would I pay for that. And look, the answer is the it's quite a bit. But I to quantify it. I called it a $50,000 experience, and I'm like, without a doubt, man. I would. I would. I imagine the 65 year old version of me would stroke a $50,000 check in a heartbeat to have one night snuggling, reading a bedtime story. What have you with the 11 year old version of my kid, who's probably going to be 40 at that time.
(07:50):
So I need to start treating these experiences like they're $50,000 experiences. And even though that time has come and gone, there's a lot of other moments like that that I'm I'm viewing through this this lens of like the Time Machine effect and and treating them like like the way that they deserve to be treated.
Govindh Jayaraman (08:08):
Yeah, you know, the 1st thing that flashed back to me when you said that was all. 3 of our kids used to get this. I love you. Song, and it was me every night I'd list down every single person that loves them, and say, mommy loves you. Daddy loves you, you know, like the family.
Yeah.
the dogs love you. The grandparents love you. It was this thing, and it was just me saying everybody's name, and the kids always called it the I love you song.
(08:36):
and
they would later on in life. They went to other people and say, Oh, did you guys get the love you lullaby, my daughter once said, and they were like, What are you talking about?
And my daughter remembered it.
Derek Coburn (08:49):
Hmm.
Govindh Jayaraman (08:49):
No like, that's not a song.
It's our real thing.
And they were like, What what are you talking about? All of us got it all the time.
Derek Coburn (08:59):
Yeah.
Govindh Jayaraman (08:59):
Every night.
and and I would love for my kids to want that again while I kneel beside the bed, and I and and I do that with them. I'm getting teary just thinking about it right.
Derek Coburn (09:13):
Yeah, man we are. Gonna
we're going to miss them when they're gone, man and I and I know. And I believe that the next phase will be different and better and different. And we'll enjoy that, too. And we're going to. Really, miss, we're going to really miss having them in the house when they're gone.
Govindh Jayaraman (09:28):
Yeah, the other thing. That's part of what you said.
So part of it is the kids. But the other part of it is this boredom, this, like people delaying gratification to this point of time, this retirement point of time, where my life is, gonna be good.
but that that often ends up being highly disappointing for a lot of people, doesn't it?
Derek Coburn (09:51):
Yeah. You know, there's a big, this big unretirement movement where over 25% of all people who have quote unquote retired are looking to come back to work and are going back to work, and some of them are doing it for the money, but a lot of them are doing it because they missed the connection.
They miss the interaction with other humans, they miss being able to contribute. I talk a little bit about the difference between chasing happiness and chasing meaning and look if somebody hates what they do for a living, I don't want them to do it any longer, and I certainly don't expect them to hear what I'm saying and think
(10:24):
like, yeah, great idea, Derek, like you want me to do this even longer than I than I have to do it, and I'm sure sitting on a beach with a fruity alcoholic beverage
is going to be better than doing a job that you don't hate, but I don't think it's going to last very long, and I don't think it's going to be a lasting happiness if you will. There was a study done.
(10:44):
Barbara Fredrickson, I think, is the researcher, and she divided up people that were that into into half. If half the people were focused on prioritizing happiness. What will make me happy? The other half were focused on prioritizing meaning, meaning, what? What can I contribute to the world at large?
And she hooked them up to brain monitors, heart monitors, and people that were prioritizing happiness were not doing very well at all. Their bodies had a response
(11:16):
that was very similar to the type of response our bodies have when it's dealing with a chronic adversity like the loss of a loved one. The loss of a job inflammation markers went through the roof. Your immunity went down.
People that were prioritizing happiness were much more likely to get sick and to get diseases than people who were prioritizing meaning. So in a roundabout, ironic sort of way, the key to being happy is to really, not chase happiness. It's to think about. What can I do to contribute to the world at large? What can I do to show up and and share my gifts and my talents and my skills with the world.
(11:51):
and that's going to eventually make me happier than I would be if I was just prioritizing happiness.
Govindh Jayaraman (11:57):
And you're not saying that there's a 1 size fits all version of that either. Derek, right? Like what gives me meaning might be different than what gives you meaning that gives somebody else meaning. You're not judging what people pick to get meaning to. But that's the part of it. And I really think that's the
it's a bit of a failure of the hedgehog principle, right? Because they said
(12:18):
purpose, financial. You know, the financial vehicle or the money machine and happiness. And it's that intersection that makes it. Happiness is not part of that equation. It's purpose. And yeah, having an economic engine behind it is useful. And if people are really really good and highly highly skilled at something, and are getting well compensated for it, they're usually pretty happy.
(12:42):
right? They're usually pretty content because you go all day being told you're good at something and getting paid well enough for it. You're going to be happy. So happiness is not something that that
is anything other than the outcome of doing other things that give you meaning right? So.
Derek Coburn (12:58):
You. Probably you probably have seen, like some of the data research on flow States by Mikhail Ciczentmihai. And you know, he basically was able to prove that, like people are their happiest when they're lost in time. They're they're engaged in work that they enjoy doing. That's challenging, that's going to contribute to to something bigger than themselves. And that really, that really is the the pinnacle, for for you know, being and feeling happy.
Govindh Jayaraman (13:22):
So how does this apply? How does this model? How does this? Let's retire. Retirement work for someone who's in their forties or fifties, you know, there are entrepreneurs listening to this right now, Derek, and they're like.
Oh, shit like I've got 2 kids in college.
Derek Coburn (13:37):
Yep.
Govindh Jayaraman (13:37):
I'm dealing with 7%.
Derek Coburn (13:39):
Yep.
Govindh Jayaraman (13:40):
So what do you say to them.
Derek Coburn (13:42):
And what do you? And when you say that, what do you mean? They feel like it's not attainable. They feel like it is.
Govindh Jayaraman (13:46):
They feel like they've missed the boat.
Derek Coburn (13:49):
I see what you're saying.
you know, in terms of, in terms of the way that it applies to their kids.
Govindh Jayaraman (13:55):
Or themselves in any way.
Derek Coburn (13:57):
Yeah.
So look, we've got, we've got health. We've got relationships. We've got friendships we've got. You know, the last chapter of my book. I call it investing in you, and I talk about
all of the things that I think we should be investing in, knowing that we're going to work a little bit longer, and and one of them is like, I think we're in a fun recession right now. I think that like 99% of adults are not even coming close to having an appropriate amount of fun like just going out and enjoying life more, you know. So you know, I would say that I wrote this book more for people like in their forties and fifties, and maybe thirties.
(14:31):
more so than the people that have already arrived, if you will, because I want to inspire them to make different choices and live their lives a little bit differently. But what I'm showing people is that by working longer by planning to extend the time that you're working. It might not be what you're doing now. You might not be working 60 HA week. You might be doing something else that you enjoy a little bit more
(14:55):
on your terms the way you want to do it. It's bringing in some money. But that little bit of money that you're gonna bring in now, beyond what you were thinking you were going to bring in
means you don't have to save as much for retirement. That means you now have more time and more money that you get to spend on different things right now. So you can. You can justify more easily, you know, going flying to see your kid at college, taking your wife on more dates, you know, hitting the gym, not skipping family dinners going to a great concert, fill in the blank with the rest of it. But that's what I really want people to realize is
(15:31):
when they're focused on saving a number for a certain age. They're not. They're not properly accounting for the work that they're likely going to want to do beyond the age that everyone's telling them they're going to want to stop.
Govindh Jayaraman (15:42):
Yeah. What you just said reminds me of a friend of mine who owns a really great chain of restaurants, and he used to be a sommelier in New York, and and, you know, comes at wine really, naturally, and I like good wine. So I remember asking him. I said, You know I've got some
some good old bottles of wine. When when do I know? Is the right time to drink it?
(16:05):
And he goes now now's always the right time, like when you think of it, that's the right time. And his point was.
it's not generating anything for you. It's not generating what you think it means to you. I'm like, Yeah, there are professional collectors that are doing great things, and that's different. But if you're at home and you've bought something. Enjoy it, because how you enjoy it is more important than just keeping it on the shelf. And you're sort of saying the same thing right? Take it off the shelf, enjoy it, have the fun, have the moment, share the moment, and then get another one. Later.
Derek Coburn (16:43):
Yep, I love that man. Yep, big time.
Govindh Jayaraman (16:46):
So. So tell me.
is this something that you had to learn for yourself? Cause you're you're a pretty balanced guy like you've always, to me, at least from what I've seen.
you've been a very balanced person in terms of managing the amount of time you put in work versus in family? Or is this something that you had to learn the hard way.
Derek Coburn (17:06):
So I don't know if you know this about me, but I've been a financial advisor for 27 years. I sold my wealth management firm in 2019 to a Private Equity Company, had a bit of an earn out. I still have the practice, but it's just a handful of clients that I've been working with for a long time that I continue to enjoy working with.
When I realized that the best thing that I'd done collectively for the majority of my clients was help them come to the realization that they weren't going to be happy sitting around doing nothing. Anyone that's listening to this. If they've ever met with a financial advisor, I'm going to bet good money that the Financial Advisor never said, do you want to retire?
(17:44):
The Financial advisor said, What age do you want to retire? You were automatically opted into it. You had to come up with a number. If you didn't have a number off the top of your head. We'll all forgive you for that. But they were probably quick to say, Why don't you just pick 65, because that's the age that everyone else picks, or maybe 67, or maybe 62. And then you just go into this autopilot mode of Oh, my gosh! I'm behind
(18:08):
the curve, and I need to figure out a way to come up with saving this money, and I don't know what I'm going to do. I share a story in my book about
a fictitious guy named Tony. Tony's 45 years old. I'll share it quickly with you, minus all the dramatic flair. Tony's 45 years old. He makes $150,000 a year, and he has $150,000 saved up for retirement. Now, you can add a 0 to that. You can. You can make it. Whatever number you want. The percentages. And what I'm about to share will will basically be the same.
(18:39):
So, Tony, if Tony wants to stop working at 65, and 20 years, most of the financial advisors, the models, the things that you do the calculators that you use online tell him that he needs to save $2,400 a month in order to make it happen. $2,400 a month when you're making $150,000 a year is almost 20% of what you're making, and is more or less a nonstarter for most people. That would mean that you're essentially living on just a little bit more than what you're saving.
(19:07):
If Tony decides, he's gonna work until he's 75 instead of 65. The amount that he has to save goes from 2,400 down to $110 per month. It goes down by 96%. So you can just
feel the sigh relief that a lot of people feel and experience when I explain this to them, because we've all read, and we've all seen these articles that say, well, you should have saved a lot more when you were 23 to take advantage of compounding interest, and we feel stupid because we didn't do that. Not that we were making a lot of money then, anyways. But there's not a lot of articles that talk about the same benefits, but even more dramatically affecting you, because it's such a higher number
(19:49):
that you can achieve by just extending it on the back end a little bit. And so look, that's maybe an extreme example for some people going from 65 to 75. But if Tony were to say, I'll work until I'm 70. The number goes from 2,400 down to 600 a month. So it's a 75% reduction. So I've been having these conversations with my clients for 25 years in an industry where no one else is having them. No one else really seems to be interested in having them.
(20:18):
And I think, while I don't think that there is a big conspiracy, I don't think that there is a room in the sky with a bunch of evil people that have gathered together to try to make people miserable.
The one thing to keep in mind is that it really goes against the financial interest of a financial advisor to have this conversation, because if you think about it, if a financial advisor has 300 Tony's that they're working with. And they have this conversation and all 300. Tony's say, Okay, this makes sense. I don't want to do this anymore.
(20:49):
The financial Advisor just took a 95% pay cut, because now they're saving a lot less money on an annual basis compared to what they would have been saving if they bought into this traditional retirement.
Govindh Jayaraman (21:00):
Yeah. So do you know, I'm rethinking what I thought the best sales pitch ever was.
Derek Coburn (21:09):
Okay.
Govindh Jayaraman (21:10):
So. So you know this best sell the best advertising campaign ever in the history of the world has been documented as being the Beers.
Derek Coburn (21:19):
Oh, oh, okay. Cool.
Govindh Jayaraman (21:20):
To De Beers, the the Diamond Company.
Derek Coburn (21:23):
You know what I've heard? I've heard. I believe you, and I've also heard people say that it's the home ownership and the American dream of owning your own house has been dubbed as that, too. But tell your the beer story.
Govindh Jayaraman (21:34):
So the De Beer story was prior to the De Beers campaign. The average price in a diamond engagement ring was a thousand dollars.
Derek Coburn (21:43):
No.
Govindh Jayaraman (21:43):
Inflation adjusted. $1,000. Right?
They came up with a 3 month salary, guideline.
and the 3 month salary guideline was. You take your salary times 3. That becomes so. That changed the expectations. They told everybody. Nobody talked about how much, how much people should. How much should you spend on a diamond engagement ring nobody knew.
So they went out and told everybody.
Derek Coburn (22:03):
Yeah.
Govindh Jayaraman (22:03):
Could expect
3 months, and it and and the average price of the engagement ring went up by more than 10 x
immediately following the campaign, and has.
Derek Coburn (22:16):
Hmm.
Govindh Jayaraman (22:17):
At that level or higher inflation adjusted since
most successful average single advertising campaign ever in the history. Now you're making me rethink that because
this is really an advertising campaign, isn't it? It's an advertising campaign around. When do you want to retire? Great? Well, let's do the math. Let's reverse engineer when you want to retire, what income you want to have. And blah blah blah, presuming, by the way, that you're going to do nothing and earn nothing right. They're they're filling in the blanks for you all of those things.
(22:51):
So this is this is a sales pitch, and you don't have to buy that sales pitch is really what you're saying.
Derek Coburn (22:57):
Well, they're they're letting you fill in the blanks. But nobody's qualified to predict what inflation is going to be every year for the next 25 years. What tax rates are going to be for the next 25 years? What your rate of return is going to be on an annual basis, whether your kids are going to get married and whether you're going to fund their wedding. And oh, by the way, what age are you going to die. You have to. You have to predict all of these things perfectly. It's almost like an
(23:22):
like an 8 leg parlay that you have to, that you have to nail in order to
properly, you know, identify the amount that you have to save for retirement, and and no one's qualified to do that. But we're living our lives like we're going to win this 8 leg parlay. And we're making all these sacrifices along the way in order to make it happen. And I mean, like, even if you get everything right, I'll just share, like the preposterous of
(23:49):
the the preposterous nature of this game. Right is, let's say that you get it right up until the time you're 64 years old, and you just are one year and 1 7% return away in the stock market from you being able to hit your number and retire. And that's the year the stock market goes down. 20%. Then what do you do now like. Now, do you work an extra 6 years or 7 years? And I think you know, along those lines I've got clients that have
(24:14):
that have. Most of them have a lot of money, and a lot of them are still doing some type of work, and they're not making a ton. But they're doing some type of work, and I've got some clients that aren't doing any work at all, and and the one, even though either one of them in either category could spend as much money as they wanted to, and really never have to worry about running out of money. The people that are still earning an income, spend their money in
(24:39):
so much more of a carefree way, just knowing that they still have money coming in, and they're not in the mode of oh, now it's only coming out. So they're enjoying their money a lot more by extending the time that they're working as well. It's a big psychological factor for many people.
Govindh Jayaraman (24:54):
Yeah, I don't know about you, but I've always had the feeling. I mean, I love what I do. I love what I've done. I love the people that I've interacted with, and I've never imagined myself
walking in circles around my neighborhood forever, or sleeping until noon every single day like I'd like that idea of not doing anything
(25:16):
scares me.
Yeah, I like I. So I'm so disinterested in it that I find it terrifying.
Derek Coburn (25:23):
Yup!
Govindh Jayaraman (25:24):
Is that is that similar to you.
Derek Coburn (25:26):
I think so. But again, I think that you could move from terrified of not doing anything to like. I see the way that you show up, and I see the way that you
run this show and run businesses, and and I think you do it mostly from a place of you know, enjoyment like you like doing it. You love the game you love the value that you're adding. I think you would be okay, and I think it makes sense for a lot of people. Look, I
(25:49):
look. I hit pause on my life after I sold my practice again, in part knowing that I was never going to stop working that I didn't have this number that I had to hit, and I got to like focus on some childhood trauma. I got to focus on some things that were running in the background for me and and and and you know, maybe like for a lot of people with this fear of not doing anything or not contributing. Maybe that's
(26:13):
maybe that's part of it. But but ultimately I just think that people are just not going to be happy or fulfilled, sitting around doing nothing for an extended period of time.
Govindh Jayaraman (26:22):
Yeah. And then you add on top of it that we're all I mean.
just health science is what it is. We're going to live longer.
Derek Coburn (26:29):
Yep.
Govindh Jayaraman (26:30):
In the future than we think we're going to live.
We're gonna and that's that's another part of it. Right? Do we.
Derek Coburn (26:36):
Big time.
Govindh Jayaraman (26:37):
Do we want to do? We want to be
doing something we love right until the end. I mean, I watch my parents. My parents are so living a life of meaning.
they they are really active in a variety of community groups and Yoga groups and spiritual groups around the Hindu Federation here in Canada and other things. They're just so active.
(26:58):
and they're so happy, being
they see no other way for them other than to continue to do those things, I mean, in fact, they're busier than they've ever been, and I.
Derek Coburn (27:07):
No, it's great!
Govindh Jayaraman (27:08):
I love watching that so so that fun, recession. Look, I'm all about
giving people a place to start. And yet your book
is a great place to start. But what would you say for the person listening? Who's who's running a business? Who's who's doing the 60 h weeks? Who's who's trading time right now, what would you say to them?
(27:31):
Where do they start.
Derek Coburn (27:33):
To have more fun.
Govindh Jayaraman (27:35):
Yeah.
Derek Coburn (27:36):
Look so I think
I would approach them the same way that I would approach somebody that hasn't worked out in 5 years. I don't think that a good way to kick off your your lack of having fun for an extended period of time is to go on an extravagant trip with, you know, lots of lots of energy and lots of stimulation, like I would tell the person that hasn't worked out in a long time to let's plan to go to the gym once or twice a week for a few weeks and shake off the cobwebs and start eating a little bit better, and I would tell the person that
(28:07):
that tells me that the last time they had fun was 3 months ago, when they went out with another couple, and they had a bottle of wine, and they talked about their kids, and it was an hour and a half, and then they went home. I would tell them. Look, you know, maybe we find a local concert to go to. Maybe you find a stand up comedy, a stand-up comedian to visit and to go see, there's a term called collective effervescence. That's been that was invented about a hundred years ago, and it essentially says that the
(28:38):
the way that you can achieve the most joy while we are in these human suits is to experience this collective effervescence, which is a combination of being in a flowed state
with a lot of other people who are experiencing the same thing that you are experiencing. Right? So for me, live music concerts and stand up. Comedy are the best ways that we can access fun. Some people say sports, I think sports are great. I love sports. You love sports.
(29:08):
The reason I would put sports in a different category is, look, man, there's a 50% chance that you're going to be unhappy at the end of a sports game right? Like I'm never! I'm never going to be unhappy. I go to see a band that I love. It's not like the guitar player is going to, you know. Go. Oh, for 9 from the 3 point line, and I'm going to leave, you know, because they stopped their set an hour early. That's not happening. But that's when the good moments of sports happen. That's why they're so good, because everyone's feeling it
(29:35):
all at once. So look, there's there's a great app called bands in town that you can sync up with your spotify account. It'll take a look at all the artists that you listen to and make recommendations for other bands that are coming into town that you might like. There's hopefully there's some kind of
place to see. Stand up comedy where you are, but if if those are not an option, then look even just reconnecting with an old friend, or groups of friends or people, that you can go out and spend a little bit of time with
(30:04):
like, I really do believe that when we're doing all this work, we're working on our business and working on ourselves, and everyone's talking about the work that we're doing. It wouldn't surprise me if our bodies, our mind, our spirits, were just like, you know what like. You are never showing us a good time. So why are we going to fall in line and conform and do all this
work stuff that you want to do all the time?
Govindh Jayaraman (30:26):
Yeah, I love that. I love that. And I love the idea of starting small. And I love that you gave people this really easy way of reconnecting with what they find fun.
Derek, there's a member of the paper Napkin Wisdom Community, who passed away suddenly earlier this year. His name is John Rulan. You were close to him. John gave us a great napkin, and we've been asking people to pay forward his legacy, his memory, and his inspiration by ending with gratitude. His napkin to us was what appreciate, appreciates.
(31:01):
what you appreciate, appreciates. So who or what would you like to appreciate today?
Derek Coburn (31:06):
Yeah, I'm really glad that you're doing this. John was such a great soul who left us way too soon. I was at his funeral, and I replay a lot of the video messages that he's sent me and go back and visit those. And I,
you know, was gifted by him like a lot of knives. We used him and his company giftology to provide gifts, and we still do. We still use them for a lot of our clients and a lot of our friends. And so I've been doing a lot more cooking lately, and I think about John almost every day when I'm in the kitchen, you know, preparing food. So it's really cool that you're doing this.
(31:46):
Look. I just want to give a shout out to to my wife, Melanie. You know we we have this incredible relationship, this incredible marriage. And in particular, you and I were talking about this before we started chatting, but she was able to.
She worked for the redskins, now commanders for a long time, and left when she started, her and I started our our community cadre together.
(32:12):
and she was able to spend a good part of the Covid lockdown, you know, standing up for a lot of the women that experienced sexual abuse and trauma and harassment, you know, at the hands of the leadership and the ownership of that team, and she everywhere, from testifying in front of Congress to being on the today show and other news outlets and writing OP-eds for big publications, and she just really
(32:36):
poured a lot into it, and she gave our boys a front row seat of what it looks like to stand up, you know, for the little guy and and her and a few other women man. They took down a billionaire. I was just really proud of her and and her willingness to sacrifice her own comfort and her own needs for the betterment of the world, and so many other women who are living in unfortunate and working in unfortunate situations. So yeah, she's she's my number one hero of many, and love, giving her a shout out and praise whenever I can.
Govindh Jayaraman (33:06):
Yeah. Well, I I we did talk about it beforehand, because it was amazing to me to not only.
Derek Coburn (33:15):
See her.
Govindh Jayaraman (33:17):
Become such a champion for so many women without a voice. But I loved watching you support her too. So it was just. It was a beautiful thing.
Derek. It's always special to spend time with you.
Derek Coburn (33:32):
Likewise. Man, I miss you, man, hopefully. We can do the in person thing again sometime soon.
Govindh Jayaraman (33:37):
Yeah, I look forward to it.
Derek Coburn (33:39):
Thanks for having me. Man.
Govindh Jayaraman (33:40):
Thank you.
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