#10--The Battles We Didn't Choose

If you've only been married five months and your wife is the one who gets diagnosed with breast cancer?  Well, clearly your honeymoon is REALLY over.

Even though cancer hits way too many of us, we are still shocked when it attacks someone particularly young and vibrant.  Such was the case with Jennifer Merendino.  Her husband Angelo is our guest this episode, recounting how he and his wife Jen dealt with  her double mastectomy, chemotherapy, radiation, and breast reconstruction before their first wedding anniversary.  And then how they eventually dealt with the cancer returning, trying to explain long distance to family and friends the journey they were going through.  A heart-wrenching, brutally honest series of photographs emerged from this experience.

Angelo Merendino also discusses how photography became his passion and livelihood, as well as the challenges of life as a young widower.

https://www.mywifesfightwithbreastcancer.com/

Angelo started a non-profit to help current victims of breast cancer.  It is called The Love You Share.  The mission of The Love You Share is to provide financial assistance to breast cancer patients in need while they are receiving treatment.  Its goal is to make life easier, even if only for a short time, for someone who is fighting for life.

https://theloveyoushare.org/

You can view more of Angelo Merendino's photography here:

https://www.angelomerendino.com/


NOTE:  This show transcript is still raw.  Once final edits are made, it will be noted right here in the show notes.

This episode was recorded 10.23.18.  All portions are copyright 2018 Luanne Bole-Becker.


 

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:02):
This is passing through life I show that
explores how people navigatemajor life changes.
Just how do we make it throughwhat life throws at us.
I'm your host, Luanne pulledback.
Today's episode is entitled thebattles we didn't choose.
It's a subtle revision to thetitle of a powerful body of

(00:24):
photographic work by our guesttoday, Angelo Marin.
Dino, this is episode number 10.
And Angelo is a professionalphotographer whose work is as
artistically compelling as itis, compassionate and so very
human.
We'll learn more about how IAngelo and his wife Jennifer

(00:45):
battled breast cancer at a veryyoung age.
And now how I Angelo and hiswife Liz face the battles of
fully living after such adefining and traumatic series of
events.
So welcome Angelo.
I always enjoy talking with you.
Thank you for having me.
Yeah, any billing is mutualbanks.

(01:06):
Um, Angela and I met by phonecall first.
Um, and we had an instantconnection.
Uh, Cleveland magazine was doinga story about me and my husband
and our journey throughAlzheimer's.
So this was back in 2016.
Angelo is the photographer theyhad assigned to our story.
And your life story includes aterminal disease of a young

(01:28):
spouse and accompanying her on afour year journey to the ups and
downs and really inexplicablychallenges of a disease like
cancer.
So we talked a long time thatfirst phone call and several
times after and I think we havea kinship of a common experience
and a fraternity or a sororitythere really no one ever wants

(01:51):
to join, but we did.
Neither one of us chose it.
The theme of our podcast isalways about transitions and I
think you'd have a whole bunchand I think they're worth
exploring what we'll see.
Let's see what we can getthrough and was about an hour.
Uh, first you became aphotographer.
I want to talk a little bitabout that.
Falling in love, dealing withthe specter of cancer and death.

(02:14):
Just what, five months afterbeing married?
Yes.
Yes.
Good.
Jen and I were married for fivemonths and um, we, Jen and I met
in Cleveland.
Okay.
I was applying for a job as abartender at the Fulton bar and
grill, which is no longer there,but um, Jen was a manager there

(02:36):
and I applied and met her and Iimmediately thought, wow, you
know, she is just, she issomething else.
She is, I'm like no one I'veever met and I, I really had
strong feelings for her.
Jen saw me as a friend, whereasI was wanting to be more than
friends and, and I never had itback then.

(02:56):
I, I didn't have the confidenceto say how I really felt

Speaker 2 (03:00):
about her.
I didn't think she would beinterested in me.
And so when we work together, Iwould get incredibly nervous.
I had been bartending for yearsand I knew how to buy a 10, but
I was just nervous around herbecause she was the kind of
person who really led byexample.
She didn't judge people.

(03:21):
She just worked hard andeveryone that I knew then who
knew Jen and everyone, Iultimately wouldn't meet, all
said the same thing.
Like you just wanted to be abetter person because of the way
Jen carried herself.
So, so not long after we met Jentook a job in New York and move
to the city and, um, and we keptin touch.

(03:42):
We would talk on the phone.
This was right as texting wasstarting to happen.
Well that's good.
Yeah, it was great.
Well, we talked on the phone andwe've, we just, even then that
we would talk for hours and we'dlisten to each other and I still
didn't have the courage to tellher how I felt when I also
thought, well, I'm in Clevelandand you're in New York.

(04:03):
Like, how's that gonna work?
And I would be in this city fromtime to time and I would see her
and I just would always havethese big ideas of what I was
going to say.
And then it never reallyhappened.
So I finally did.
And we dated long distance for afew months.
And then I moved to New York andI proposed the night that I

(04:25):
arrived.
And, um, and then we spent abouta year in New York just living
and planning a wedding.
We were married in central park.
She was wonderful.
It was surrounded by her familyand a few close friends.
And so here we were and youknow, in our thirties we had
fallen in love and we had thiswedding that was so wonderful.

(04:48):
We felt like it was true to whowe were, you know, getting
married outside in a park andfor two people who grew up in
Akron to think, wow, we'regetting married in central park.
It was, it was very special tous and we were starting our life
at that time.
If you can put yourself back inthat, what were you seeing?
What did you think your lifemight hold for you?

(05:10):
I didn't really know what mylife might hold, but I didn't
think there were any boundaries.
I felt like, you know, the oldsaying, the world is our oyster.
It was all right, you know, nowI, you know, at that point I, I
was probably not the mostconfident.
I didn't believe in myself, butJen really encouraged me.

(05:30):
And she pointed out the thingsin me that she said, you know,
this is why you should believein yourself aside from a
wonderful wife.
She was a great person, a greatfriend.
And so I didn't know what wascoming next.
I had been playing music myentire life and that kind of
fell apart and I didn't knowwhat was next.
I had what kind of music?
Oh, I played the drums in abunch of rock and roll bands.

(05:54):
Um, but I, I just kind gotteninto photography a little before
that.
I just didn't have any cleardirection, but I have this, this
best friend as a wife and nowgoing to be together and it's
gonna be okay.
Right.
In hindsight, it's almost naivein a sense, you know, because I,
I didn't, I didn't have theexperience that Jen and I would
soon have to sort of make methink differently about

(06:17):
mortality and about being aliveand about being present and how
time passes.
So to life was just a blankcanvas at that point.
And, and then five months later,Jen was diagnosed with breast
cancer.
And, um, now in 2018, it's been10 years since that diagnosis
and it still is, is reallystrange to think that that

(06:40):
happened in a decade has passedand so much has happened so
that, you know, in an instantlife just, it just went beyond
intense.
It was, everything got turnedupside down.
I remember Jen called me becausethe doctor just called her to

(07:00):
say, you know, we were, youknow, it's breast cancer and it
was like an immediate switchflip to being numb.
And while that numbness doesn'tenvelop my entire existence as
much as it did, it's still kindof, their life just became much
more precious, much more fragileand our life in a while.
Other people we knew who ourage, we're young couples were

(07:24):
maybe starting a family or theywere buying a home where they
were traveling or their careerwas their focus and are working
hard on that.
We were facing breast cancer,this unknown that was changing.
So often even, you know, fromone doctor visit to the next a
couple of days apart, thingswould change and sometimes we

(07:46):
would just get a handle on whatwas happening in our life,
whether it was medications andside effects and cancer would do
a 90 degree turn and all thatstuff we'd drop.
And so our life was really aboutbeing present and being in the
moment because we couldn't makelong term plans.
How is your marriage handlingthis?
I mean you're, you're pretty.

(08:07):
So it, how long had you beendating?
We dated for a little over ayear, so we had been together
less than two years when Jen wasdiagnosed as a couple.
And I think dating long distancereally taught us the importance
in that short amount of time oflistening to each other.

(08:27):
And so I think we always had agood ability to communicate.
It was just clear to both of usthat okay, this is our life and
we're in this together.
We, we made these valves anddidn't expect them to be
challenged.
There's cards for better, forworse in sickness and in health

(08:48):
till we get any of the health?
It was ultimately a great honorto care for someone who needed
that.
And for me it was very definingin the sense that it made me
realize I'm a little more aboutwho I am as a person and what's
important to me and, and Ican't, um, I can't act like I

(09:10):
did all this.
Jennifer was very graceful.
She never complained, you know,I can't imagine going through
what she went through and notthat she wasn't angry or
depressed or sad that you didn'tjust walk through this happy as
can be, but she, she was verygraceful.
And I think that again, she setan example through her actions.
So, you know, it's still strangeagain, uh, 10 years since the

(09:35):
diagnosis and it's just really,it's very strange.
It doesn't happen to me.
It happens to someone else.
It's that thing, like someoneelse told this story so many
times in so many ways.
I'm imagining it feels like astory, which is, I can feel that
a little bit with what happenswith me.
And Bob that, yeah, it almost,it doesn't feel like me anymore.

(10:00):
You know, we've done that.
We did that.
Yeah.
And it's just, well, I think thefact that Jen and I shared our
experience and after she passed,I continued to share it.
I, I tried to figure out, okay,how can I get these messages
across to people?
And to your point, at times itdoes feel like I'm just
retelling a story.

(10:21):
I've had to really be careful tonot get lost in it and to
remember who I am and to notbecome a victim or the people
around you.
You're handling it at this.
Do you have people around youbecause you're in New York,
right?
Yeah.
Well, some, some people in ourfamily, aunts, uncles, the older
generations have experiencedthings.
But for us, Jen was in herthirties so I don't think anyone

(10:44):
really believed what washappening.
Okay.
I think there was a state ofshock and when Jen was first
diagnosed, there was a doublemastectomy.
There was chemotherapy,radiation, and, and
reconstruction before our firstanniversary.
Oh my God.

(11:04):
So, and as you rattle this off,you were at the, each one of
these I'm thinking when it hitsyou.
Yeah, it's a major thing, butit's like, oh yeah, double
mastectomy.
Okay.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So, um, our family and friendsduring that first year were
incredible.
You know, I, I can't imaginethat time without them.
There were people who, you know,came in from Ohio to just spend

(11:28):
time with us because I wasstill, I was still working and
Jen fortunately was able totake, um, a leave from work or
paid media at this time I wasworking at, um, it was a design
and fabrication studio andChelsea, they did a lot of
window displays for companiesand showrooms and I was kind of

(11:49):
just a really an office grunt.
But they gave me a title of aoffice manager.
I think they liked me.
We got along well and I had agood work ethic, so, and they
were, they were incredible asfar as, you know, there were
days where I would just say,Hey, I'm not going to be in this
week.
And they just said there wasnever a question.

(12:09):
I really learned not to jump toofar, but I learned a lot about
kindness and that, you know,there are people who helped us
who were their religious beliefswere this way or they didn't
have religious beliefs.
They were, uh, there were men,there were women, there were
different ethnicities, differentsexual preference.
But at the end of the day, thatdidn't matter.
People just helped us.

(12:29):
And to me, not that I didn'tthink that beforehand, but it
was a real life experience ofthinking someone wasn't like a
baptist and you grew upCatholics, I'm not helping you.
It wasn't, you know, I'm fromthis part of the world.
You're from that part of theworld.
You're straight or gay.
It wasn't anything like that.
It was, this is really messedup.

(12:49):
How can we help?
Well, it was great, you know,and it, I can't imagine getting
through that time without thatsupport.
And, um, we also had a greatsocial worker at the hospital we
were at.
And our oncologist was reallywonderful.
They both seem to know when tolet us cry.
You know, to give us a tissueand when to give us tough love

(13:10):
and say, okay, you know, youknow, hey, it's time to make the
[inaudible].
I've got a note about the socialworker that um, it was a she
fiber crops.
Yeah.
Well yeah.
And that, you know, you guyswere fighting and then at some
point she allows you not tofight.
Is that a true, that's what Ikind of remember you Roz could

(13:30):
with a few words, just makethings as okay as they could be.
You know, she was, um,incredibly wise and kind and
hilarious.
You know, she, she always hadour back and that was huge
because again, we're navigatinga world that we didn't have any
experience in.
Like we have to make a decisionon which chemotherapy or you

(13:54):
know, what type ofreconstructive surgery, all
these things that people spendyears studying to understand.
And then the doctor comes in theroom and tells us some stuff and
we're supposed to make adecision.
But what ended up happening isthat, you know, Jen finished her
treatment and then it was like,okay, go back to life.
And we're like, you know, I kindof felt like everything I had

(14:16):
learned had just been wiped out.
Everything I had learned in lifeand experience and thought I was
looking at it through the eyesof your mortality was very
different and things I thoughtwere important or just kind of
like, oh, you know, I don't knowthat's important anymore.
Or material things, material,financial, quote unquote

(14:37):
success, the things that I thinkour culture says to be
important.
And um, to me, you know, familyand friends and things that
really became everything.
And the, I would just tellpeople I love them constantly
and I still do.
I think that's really important.

(14:58):
So you get through, it soundslike a first stage of treatment
and everything.
Okay.
Now you're supposed to go backto life over how long is that
period roughly?
Is that like the period oftreatment?
Uh, it was just under a year.
Okay.
All right.
And we finished with that rightbefore our first anniversary.
And um, then when people didn'tunderstand why we were still

(15:20):
very rattled and why we werejust, we were exhausted and we
were confused.
And we were scared and we just,we couldn't, it was hard to
explain to people, you know,there was a lot of, oh well the
cancer's gone.
Like they're all saying, okay,you gotta be okay now, but they
don't understand, you know, thatwell now it's a huge fear that

(15:42):
the cancer is going to comeback.
And not that we constantlythought that we were, we try,
you know, I think we were bothnaturally optimistic people when
we let ourselves be that way.
But the reality is it's, youcan, you can be the most half
full glass in the world, butwhen you're dealing with
something like cancer, it's,it's not that we became

(16:04):
pessimistic or anger or any ofthose things, but, you know,
again, with hindsight, Iunderstand more now why I think
people behave the way they did.
And I'm not angry at people whoweren't around or who kind of
fell off the face of the earth.
I think people, some peoplecould deal with it and some
people couldn't.
And you know, when I was, um, Iwas 19, my dad was diagnosed

(16:27):
with lung cancer and I didn'tbehave in a way that I'm proud
of now because I was young and Ididn't know.
So I've just tried to understandhow or why people behave the way
they did because we had a lotof, um, you know, just be happy,
just do this, just do that.
And it's like, cool, how are youto tell us how we should be when

(16:51):
we just went through this hell,it's like an armchair
quarterback, you know?
But we still, we tried tounderstand where people were
coming from it and we did try toput our lives back together and
we were aware of life and howprecious it is and as much as we
could be while still being kindof in shock.
But, but then in April of 2010,um, so it was about a year and a

(17:19):
half or more than a year and ahalf, um, where Jen was going
back for checkups and, um, butin April, 2000 back at work.
Back at work.
Yeah.
But definitely thinking that,you know, what does she want to
do with their life?
All of a sudden, you know, shejust didn't want to go make a
paycheck.
She, because she noticed when,when she was trying to find

(17:42):
other people say online to, toconnect with, it was different
in 2008 and nine.
Now there are blogs, everythingand there is a bigger voice for
a lot of different things.
But at that point it wasn't, itwasn't like that.
And most of what she was findingonline, it was very clinical.
Like, here's the drug, here arethe side effects.
And she's like, yeah, but I'mhaving these other side effects.

(18:05):
And so she, she joined a supportgroup, um, during that first
year of treatment and there, Ithink maybe 14 or 15 women in
rise.
The social worker I mentionedled the group and these women,
you know, they could, they couldtalk about things that they
understood.
They could be comfortable in away that they couldn't be

(18:27):
anywhere else.
You know, Jen and I were bestfriends.
I was her husband and she knewthat there wasn't anything I
wouldn't do for her, but therewas a certain point that I
didn't, I couldn't cross thatline and understand what she was
saying, but these other womencould.
And I had to realize I wanted tobe superman.
I wanted to have every answer.
I want it to always, you know,be the one to take care of her.

(18:52):
But I realized I needed to knowwhen to let other people help
her.
And that was difficult for mebecause it was hard to let go
and let someone else help her.
But, um, so we're, we, we sharedour experience because I should
say gen more so at first becauseshe felt like there has, there
has to be other people out therewho feel like I do.

(19:13):
You know, so her cancermetastasized in, in April of
2010 and we were back in thatworld.
But one of the many things thatwere different was that our
family and friends kind of, notall of them, but a lot of them
were just go, well you know,just, you just gotta pray, you

(19:34):
just gotta be positive.
And we're like, no, the cancerhas metastasized.
Like that's the worst fear ofsomeone who finishes treatment
is that it's going to come back.
And it wasn't about beingpositive or not being positive.
It wasn't about praying or notpraying.
It was like, and so we justnoticed that people weren't
communicating as much.
People were in responding asmuch and we had hospital stays

(19:57):
have 10 1215 days and there aretimes where something, you know,
we, people knew we were thereand we would barely have
visitors or there wouldn't becards coming in.
And I remember thinking like,come on, you know, like really
send a card, send a text messagesaying I love you.
Sometimes it could be thatsimple.
And so that's when I started tophotograph what we were going

(20:20):
through because I wanted toshare with our family to say,
this is really getting messedup.
And I, as things progressed,does the cancer continue to
spread?
They were trying to find a chemothat would work, but it was an
aggressive cancer.
And

Speaker 3 (20:35):
yeah,

Speaker 2 (20:35):
I remember getting to the point where it was like,
okay, this is, this is lookingmore on the bad side and nasal
the good side and trying to tellpeople, close friends, family
members, like he got a goodhere.
You know, I remember telling anold friend, you know that this
was in October of 2011 sayingthat there's a good chance I was

(20:57):
going to be widowed beforeChristmas.
And he said, Oh, you can't thinkthat way.
And I, I just, I said, listenman, I don't want to think this
way, but you know, the cancerhad spread to her brain at that
point, you know?
Right.
So it was, it was very difficultat the time because it's, it's
painful enough.
It's scary enough.
It's a confusing enough time asit is.

(21:19):
And you know, to Jen passed whenshe was 40 and that's, you know,
we were both very young toexperience something like that.
And I don't fault people.
I've made my peace with a lot ofpeople and even inside myself to
let go of a lot of these thingsbecause of Ed became unhealthy.
But I just, I think that wedon't, as a society here in the

(21:42):
states, I don't think we talkabout things like this enough
and it's happening to people all

Speaker 1 (21:48):
around here.
It's, everyone goes through thisin some manner.
I mean, years, his younger yearsis unexpected, but it's one of
the same things.
A couple of years ago I startedjust researching mortality and
different cultures and just whydo we just push it aside?
It is the one common thing.

(22:09):
We are all going to deal withit.
It's really important.
Yeah.
And, and yeah, and we, we have afuneral and we say, come back to
work in 10 days, you know?
Well, and Dah, Dah, Dah.
You know, I, I've,

Speaker 2 (22:21):
I found that it, it's, I think about mortality in
one minute and scares the lifeout of me, no pun intended.
But, um, and then other momentsit's very,

Speaker 4 (22:34):
mmm,

Speaker 2 (22:36):
it's a very inspiring thought that, okay, well then,
you know, what am I doing rightnow?
How am I living my life rightnow?
And, but I think in bracing thatthought and accepting it has
been a very important part ofmy, um, moving on.
I'm moving on, but healing and,you know, I'm not living my life

(23:00):
as a widower.
Right.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (23:04):
I want to go back a bit, um, because I know about
your photographs and you'vealluded to them, it, tell me a
little bit more about what youactually did and what has
happened with these photographs.
I mean, you've given, I don'tremember a few years or Ted
talks or Tedx talks that you'vegiven talks and I mean, these
photographs now beyond yourfamily, getting a sense of what

(23:26):
you were really going through.
Tell me what do we see and whathave they done?

Speaker 2 (23:31):
Well, so when I started making photographs, I
was a little older.
I think I was 27 or 28 and Iwent to school for it.
And I, you know, I was veryserious because I found this
thing that was reallyinteresting and everything
looked cooler through a viewfinder of a camera then without

(23:54):
it.
And I wanted to learn and Iwanted to, I wanted to be a
photographer and I was moreinterested in photograph that
told stories, photographs thatyou know, were 50 or 60 years
old and still important ahundred years old or current
photos too.
But that they had that thingabout them that made me think, I

(24:14):
first started looking at a lotof war photographers and photo
journalists and people who werededicated to their photographs
in a way that it wasn't justlike, um, it wasn't just a job.
I mean it was, but there was apassion, there was a, it seemed
like there was a desire to, toshare something and rather make

(24:37):
a photograph that might not beperfectly layered or composed or
in focus enough, but someonelooks at it and it, it affects
them as opposed to somethingthat is so perfect that you
don't understand it or no onecan connect to it.
All right.
Okay.
You know, that's, that's lessimportant to me then
communication and feeling.

(24:57):
And so I was always, you know, Iwould drive my instructors crazy
because I didn't want to dostill lifes.
I didn't want to do, do thesethings.
I would say, why, why does thepoint of this, you know?
And they would always just tellme, you know, learn how to make
photographs, man, like just bepatient.
And then not that I'm glad thatthis happened, but life life

(25:18):
happened.
And then I was in a situationwhere I was parenting me that
this was the time to use mycamera to express the feelings I
was having that I didn'tunderstand as well as to
communicate something and to dosomething with a camera that
that had meaning that I believedin.
And so taking care of Jennifer,especially after her cancer

(25:42):
metastasized was always thefirst thing.
And she knew this and trustedthat.
And when I asked her if I could,in addition to that photograph
our life, she was on board.
And so, you know, I asked, Ihave always carried a camera
with me since I started makingphotographs.
And I knew the exposure and thedifferent rooms in our home or
our apartment.
Um, and we went outside once, Iwas sure that Jen was okay at my

(26:07):
camera was set.
When we went into a differentbuilding, I was always thinking
about my camera being setbecause things happen like that.

Speaker 5 (26:16):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (26:16):
And so I wasn't really thinking, oh, I'm going
to make this body of work that'sgoing to do this and that and I
need this photo.
I need this kind of photo andhere's the different types of
photos that are whatever we'regoing to tell a story.
It was more like that felt acertain way, click, you know, I
was just, I wasn't thinkingabout making photographs.
And I think in a lot of ways ofdoing that was my way of dealing

(26:40):
with, you know, keeping itenough, a wall between me and
Jen's cancer so that I wouldn'tbe crushed and I could keep
taking care of her.
And, um, I'll keep doing mypart, not like she couldn't take
care of herself, but later on itwas more on me than on her.
But you know, and I feel likeJen gave me these photographs as

(27:00):
much as I made them.
It was like a conversation, youknow, there was, there was trust
there, which is very importantto me now as a professional
photographer.
The importance of that trustthat someone doesn't feel like
I'm just coming in there with mycamera to use them.
That's not, did she ever saydon't do that?
Were there any incidences?
I generally knew I could sense,but there was one time, um, so

(27:27):
Jen's cancer had continued tospread and we were going to see
a radiologist to, to see if theycould do this really focused
radiation.

Speaker 3 (27:36):
Okay.

Speaker 2 (27:37):
And we were in the, the, the room waiting for, uh,
the, the radiologist to come in.
And it was one of the few timesthat I really saw Jen showing
her anxiety and[inaudible] and Imade a few photographs and I
remember she looked at me, shewas like, you know, she's kind

(27:57):
of given me a look, like, hurryup and finish and then just, you
know, just be, yeah.
So, so then the photographs willultimately happened was that,
you know, I, a friend suggestedthat we share them because he
had said, you know, man, theseare the story that hasn't really
been shared and I think youcould affect a lot of people.

(28:20):
So we decided to do that andyeah.

Speaker 3 (28:22):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (28:23):
And you know, a lot of people started sharing them.
Facebook was a big vehicle forthat.
And, and then Jen passed and notlong after she passed, um, CNN
shared them on their photo blog.
And that was the first time thatthey really had a big audience.
And then there was a periodwhere all of a sudden my, my

(28:46):
inbox just started exploding.
And the furthest I trace it backwas that someone shared a link
on reddit and then it wenteverywhere.
And there were weeks of wakingup in the morning getting emails
like, Hey, do you want to be on,um, huff post live today at

(29:09):
noon?
And I'm like, Oh, it's 1115 andmy internet connection isn't
great.
Yes.
Yeah.
So, um, it's a spread and it wasreally incredible because it
was, uh, for me, it was my wayof getting through these days of
still being in this incrediblyconfusing and foggy place of

(29:30):
being widowed and notunderstanding how Jen could
possibly not be alive.
And, um, and so I saw our storyhelping people and I got emails
from who said, you know, I, Ihave breast cancer and I have
been able to share thesephotographs in my family and
they're starting to understandand emails from people who said,

(29:52):
you know, I was ready to justquit treatment but I'm not going
to because of what you two did.
And it wasn't that I wasthinking, oh, awesome.
Yeah, like an eagle way.
It was more that big picture of,okay, is passing is turning into
something positive.
Yes.
It's helping people,

Speaker 1 (30:10):
Paul, right.
I mean, I'm thinking, I did getchills.
I'm not just saying this.
Um, it starts out with all thesepeople helping you in a
microcosm, kind of that theycome around you to help and that
that's what is the key thing.
Elissa says, you look back andthat got you through it and now
you're becoming this personthing, the two of you and what

(30:35):
you've created now is helpingothers.
I mean, it's like, it's just, Iguess snowballing, whatever.
And that, that's the theme andthat's what makes a difference.

Speaker 2 (30:44):
Well, it was, it was humbling indeed to see that
happen and to think, wow, youknow, we, we were able to take
something really horrible andmake something positive out of
it, you know?
And it was important to usthroughout our experience too,
to try to give back in any waythat we could.
And I had asked Jen before youfew days before she passed, if

(31:08):
it was okay for me to start anonprofit in her honor.
And so I have a nonprofit nowcalled the love you share where,
you know, each month I provide alittle financial assistance to
patients who are receivingtreatment.
And it's not like I'm payingsomeone's mortgage every month,
but it's something, and thosewere the things for us, those
little things that people coulddo it, it wasn't just a monetary

(31:31):
thing, it was that someone wasthe kindness, you know, there,
there were some days that werehorrible beyond belief and then
a message would come through, ora card or someone would say,
Hey, I know you had treatmenttoday and I just ordered dinner
for you.
And so it was just those littlethings.
We didn't expect the answersfrom people, but, but you know,

(31:52):
so that's, that's where thisnonprofit kind of came from was
how can we, how can I make asmall difference in people's
life?
And through the photographs Iwas able to raise a lot of money
for the nonprofit.
And you know, for me it's, it'ssomething that I, I never
imagined I would do somethinglike that.
And Yeah, I thought about theother day that, that, you know,

(32:17):
one more what could be more ofan honor then being there when
someone passes and, and beingthe one who's holding her hand,
you know, who's kind of helpingthat person as a, a bridge
across to wherever or whatever.
If, if anything exists, I don't,I don't know.
But you know, for me it was,it's been the greatest honor of,

(32:39):
uh, of my life, you know, tohave been there for her.
And um, I, I think in, in returnshe really gave me a life, I
guess from that point on, yourlife kind of began again from me
and you're now life is verydifferent from what it was
before.
And I look back without regreton, on decisions I've made and

(33:02):
how I handled myself in thattime.
And I think now when challengescome up, if I can remember to
think like, okay,

Speaker 1 (33:09):
okay, is this, is this breast cancer?
No, I, I can get through this,you know, cats at the flow
chart.
Very simple.
I said, okay.
Yeah.
Again, we're sitting here with alot of hindsight and things
sound like, okay, we got throughthis as positive, but you told
me that you couldn't makedecisions.

(33:30):
I mean you're just kinda like,if that happened, what else?
Tell me a little bit, cause Ithink people listening to this
also need the reality of if aspouse dies, especially
unexpected young.
I mean what, what, what happenedto you?

Speaker 2 (33:45):
Um, well I was still living in New York and I
remember I was going to meetsomebody or what it was by us
walking to the subway.
I stand on the platform and Ijust started thinking, oh no,
here it comes.
And I ran home because I knew Iwas about to, you know, I felt

(34:08):
like I was about to have abreakdown and I got home and the
pain was there, the heavinesswas there, but I couldn't cry.
And it, it took a long time tocry.
It took years for me to reallycry and I still have a hard time
crying, you know?
I think during that experiencewith Jen, I really had to try to

(34:29):
keep my emotions in checkbecause I felt like if I let go
right now, it's going tosteamroll me and I'm not going
to get back up.
And I think that I still am kindof walking that back, I guess.
But, but there were a lot ofmoments where it would just hit
me and I would just sit andstare.
And it was very numb and very,uh, confused and nothing seemed

(34:52):
to make sense at times.
And I thought everyone knew.
And I'd walk into a restaurantand I would just start to panic
and I would leave because Ithought that if someone looked
at me, they looked at me like,oh, there's that guy who's wife
died.
And it's crazy to say that nowit's like, how could they have
known?
But at that time I felt like,uh, like then you're just
wearing it.
Oh yeah.

(35:13):
You know?
And, and that pain made itdifficult for me to interact
with people.
Um, I didn't become reclusive,but I kind of spent a little
over a year, you know, very muchon my own.
Um, and it was the same withthat.
Like people didn't know what todo or what to say or they want
to, Jennifer's cousins did the,one of the best things, he, um,

(35:38):
he was traveling to New York onhis way to Vermont.
Name is Bob and his little olderthan I am.
And um,

Speaker 3 (35:45):
okay,

Speaker 2 (35:46):
Bob left me a voice mail and say, Hey, I'm traveling
to New York.
This is a couple of months everyJen had passed.
And he said, you know, I'd, I'dlove to see, uh, um, even if, if
you just want to sit and stareat a wall, I'd be happy to sit
and stare at a wall with you.
And that was the most perfect.
And here this, there were somany people who know me better

(36:06):
than Bob, but that was the mostperfect thing that anybody had
said.
And so many people either didn'twant to talk about it.
You could tell they'reuncomfortable.
And so they would completelydied.
Yet majority Molly led me toreact when people would say, how
are you?
How are you doing?
I'd look at them and think,okay, I'm giving them the, uh,
you know, data time doing okay.

(36:28):
Answer.
Because I knew if I said, wellright now, actually I'm, I'm
horrible.
Um, you know, I'm in more painon a regular if I really
unloaded on them and told themhow I felt.
Some people, you could tell itwas like three, two, glossed
over.
You could just, so, so therewere only a few people that I
felt like I could really speakto Roz being one of them.

(36:50):
Um, and I was fortunate to meeta few other, um, younger men and
women who had lost a spouse andI could say something and they
wouldn't look at me like I wascrazy and I felt like no one
understood.
And I had a few people who said,you know, Time's a great healer
and I would think you're crazy.
You know, people that I met whohad, there may be however many

(37:13):
years longer out than I was ofbeing widowed.
And they would say, Time's agreat healer.
Like, it's, you're never goingto not feel this, but it won't
hit you as hard years from now.
There are sometimes where itwill, but it's not gonna like at
that time, it just felt like,uh, the weight of the world,
like a jacket that was a leadjacket, you know, and I didn't

(37:38):
want to hear that because I, youknow, I'm never going to marry
again.
I'm never going to fall in love.
Like I, I, I just couldn'timagine ever being with anyone
else.
And, um, and, and it was true,you know, years out.
I, you know, I, I have, uh, uh,a friend that I've, he saw some
work that I had done and hereached out and his wife passed

(37:58):
few years ago and we've beentalking and I've been able to
say some of these things to him.
You know, he, he went on a datethe other day and I was so
excited for him and, and I'vebeen able to say that to him
like, hey man, you know, Time'sa great healer and I know how
that sounds.

Speaker 3 (38:13):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (38:14):
So, but, but right after it was, you know, it was,
um, there was strange.
It just, it didn't feel real.
It felt like any man I was goingto wake up in general was going
to be there or, um, but it wasalso difficult too, because I
had this very extreme feelingof, well, you know, oh, you're
having a rough day at work, mydied, you know?

(38:37):
Right.
Yeah.
And yeah, and sometimes that wasnecessary.
I was in a bank once and therewas only one teller.
Yeah.
And I had a, a deposit from mypersonal account, one for my
business account and one for thenonprofit.
And, um, so she was the lady whowas doing her, she was checking
in and someone behind me alignedit, formed in this lady said, oh

(38:57):
my God, this line, I'd rather bedead.
And this was months after Jendied.
I turned around and I said, mywife just died a few months ago,
is this line really that big adeal?
And I turned around and wentback to the teller and as I was
walking out, the lady came upand said, I'm sorry, that was
the wrong thing to say.
And now in some cases I, I'mglad that I spoke up to some

(39:19):
people, you know?
And I've had those moments in mylife where I've behaved in that
other way and I still havemoments now where I stop and
think I can come on, man.
Like I remember the big picture,but it also got to the point
where I was like, anybody whocomplained about anything like I
had to beat.
Right.
And you know, yeah, oh you got,you got two jacks, I have 12

(39:41):
aces, you know.
So it was Kinda like I had tolearn to also not become a
victim and to, to start to heal,you know, and to live life.
And remember thinking, you know,Jen told me before a few months
before she died, she started tosay, Hey, you know, I want you
to, after I pass, I want you tofall in love again.

(40:03):
I don't want to be alone.
And I started to interrupt herand she kind of said, man, you,
you have to let me say this.
And I realized that I, I didn'twant to hear that, but I needed
to let her tell me.
And I can't imagine the courageit would take to say to your
spouse, hey, I'm going to die,but I want you to find someone
else after that.
And Jen, Jen was widowed at ayoung age.
And, and I, I started to thinkaround that time after she

(40:28):
passed it around at a time whenI decided to date again.
I thought, well, you know, ifJen hadn't started dating again,
we wouldn't have met, you know,and it's scary, but, you know,
then here I am now.
I, um, I fell in love again andI, uh, yeah, I met a wonderful
woman.
Liz is her name, and she's mybest friend.

(40:51):
She um, loves me in a way that Ihave never been loved.
And, um, and it makes me abetter person by the way.
She lives her life.
And, and it's interesting toobecause I, you know, love is
very different for me now.
Love means something verydifferent than, than what it has

(41:13):
in my life.
And I think it's always going tochange.
But I love lays in a way thatknows that one of us is going to
die first.
And it's, it's a very intenselove.
And you know, Liz has had somevery traumatic experiences in
her life and on our first date,um, she knew that I was widowed.

(41:35):
She didn't know that I hadphotographed.
Jennifer.
Actually I had an old, like afilm camera and she told me
later on that she kinda saw thecamera is like, what is this
Weirdo thank and like, you know,why does he have a kid?
No, I was a photographer and soshe was kind of a little creeped
out by the camera.
But um, but we were talking andLiz, um, is divorced and she

(41:56):
mentioned that she said, youknow, it's not like I'm not ever
going to not love my ex husband.
We share a life together.
Yeah.
And when she said that, Ithought there was the perfect
thing because I knew that itwould take work, but that she
understands that, you know, I'malways gonna love Jennifer.
That's a part of my life that isa very defining part of my life.

(42:20):
And it's, and it's been a, itwas a seed that has grown into
so much of who I am, but I don'twant Jennifer back.
I'm in love with Liz and that,that that's my future.
But when she said that on ourfirst date,

Speaker 4 (42:34):
yeah.

Speaker 2 (42:35):
Eh, that took out many walls.
Just her saying that because Ithought, oh, I think she's going
to be able to undertake.

Speaker 1 (42:40):
Right, right.
Because she has a differentversion.
But similar

Speaker 2 (42:46):
reaction.
I felt like she saw the biggerpicture, right.
That she understands thatthere's a lifetime, there's
experiences and again, we, wework on, it's, you know, we had
been married a little over ayear now and we still have to,
to work to understand each otherand to be patient with each
other and they see where theother person's coming from and

(43:08):
we don't always get it right,but there's a deeper connection
there then,

Speaker 1 (43:17):
and then I would have ever known possible.
I want to go back to somethingyou'd tell me when we met prior
to this interview.
Uh, it, you know, how love isdifferent that you said with
Jen.
At first it was the love.
Like, I can't imagine notliving, you know, I can't
imagine my life without her,that it's that kind of love and

(43:38):
that now, yeah, it's thisdifferent, one of it's til death
do us part and there will be atime probably without them that
and that doesn't make it a, asmaller love.
It, it feels like a bigger,deeper love.
Yeah.
With Jen, it was that feeling

Speaker 4 (43:59):
of,

Speaker 2 (44:00):
you know, I, I don't want to live without her.
And that was a great feeling,but then she died and I kept
waking up and I continue to wakeup.
And, and that, that experience,there have been many lessons

Speaker 4 (44:15):
that I've, you know,

Speaker 2 (44:18):
learned since Jen, since meeting Jen since she was
diagnosed and she passed.
But

Speaker 4 (44:24):
okay.

Speaker 2 (44:24):
That reality that, yes, I, I love Liz with all of
my heart, but if I die, I wanther to continue living life and,
and to be happy.
And if she passes, I obviouslymourn her loss and I don't, you

(44:44):
know, it's kind of strange, likea hard time even saying this, I
can see it's like, oh, you'regoing to say, well, you know,
earth, it's one side of me islike, I don't want to experience
that death again.
So I would want to go first.
But then I think, oh, I don'twant that because I don't want
her to go.
Right, right, right.
But, but really it's this deeperlove that it's like, okay, you
know what not that means morethan the way I love Jan, or

(45:06):
they're someone else's love.
It's not that, it's just adeeper thing knowing like, okay,
I love you.
I'm going to spend the rest ofmy life with you and I know that
these things could happen and Istill love you and still want to
spend the rest of my life withyou.
Knowing that I could get a phonecall from you that would turn
things upside down again.
And so it's, it's a verydifferent love.

(45:26):
I think, you know, lays hasoften mentioned that, you know,
there that when you lovesomeone, a wedding ring is, is
what it is and all that.
But waking up in the morning andsaying, okay, I love you.
I'm gonna stay with you.
Like that's the commitment.
Waking up in the morning andlike actually loving someone.

(45:47):
You can have a wedding ring ornot, you can have a ceremony,
whatever you want, but actuallyloving someone that it's, it's
more than just saying we'remarried or getting married or,
or whatever it is.
Like the actual act of lovingsomeone that's, you know, it
takes work.
It, it's humbling.
It, you have to be vulnerableand you have to be strong.

(46:08):
And you have to be willing tohave the other person say things
that are going to hurt, but, butto trust that the person is
saying that because they loveyou.
Right.
Right now they're not trying tohurt you.
It's just this is what they'refeeling and dealing with.
Yeah.
And so are you there with meeven?
You know, there are times when,when both of us will say like, I

(46:31):
know this sounds crazy and I'mprobably just being my emotional
self, but this is what I'mfeeling right now.
And all it takes is for laserfor me to say like, okay, I get
that.
Like, feel that I get it, but,but this is like, but it's okay,
like reassuring each other andso it's just a different, you
know, it's a different from youat a different appreciation of

(46:54):
what it means to commit tosomeone.
You also talk to me about, youthought you were at peace with
death, but that that has changedto any type of, a little bit
about, um, I mean your parentsalso died.
Yeah.
You know, a few years and afterJen, but I like your dad's
outlook.
Do you want to talk about that alittle bit or, yeah, well my

(47:16):
parents were, my mom was born in1927 and my dad in 1928 and um,
I'm the youngest of 11 kids, somy parents were of a very
different generation than, thanme.
Um, and I've often felt morecomfortable people who are older

(47:36):
than me.
I think sometimes the sense ofhumor, people my age look at me
like Corny, but people in theirseventies, people in their
seventies think I'm RobinWilliams.
Um, but yeah, so my parents, um,yeah, they're raised 11 kids.
They, they gave us a life thatwas incredible.

(47:59):
And when I was younger, I don'tthink I understood or I
appreciated that as much as I donow.
Um, and my dad, um, my dad wasdiagnosed with lung cancer a few
years after he retired.
And I remember thinking,

Speaker 6 (48:19):
yeah,

Speaker 2 (48:19):
this is, pardon my French, this is bullshit.
You know, like he worked allthese years was the, you know,
he, I think he, he didn't miss aday of work, if I remember it
correctly.
It was never laid.
He like, yeah,

Speaker 6 (48:34):
he,

Speaker 2 (48:35):
he had a good job and he knew that, you know, kept as
a roof over his family inprovided while my mom had an
equally important job of, oftaking care of the kids.
And

Speaker 6 (48:49):
he,

Speaker 2 (48:51):
he appreciated that job and he worked hard.
You know, he was, he was, he's agood man, no good human being.
And he, he worked hard.
He was very honorable and, and Ididn't understand how is this
possible.
He just retired.
My Mom and dad, or, you know,they went to, they would go to
myrtle beach for a month andthey were doing things that they

(49:14):
weren't able to do when theywere raising all these kids.
And they had a saying that thesecret to their marriage was
that their, their agreement wasthat whoever left first had to
take all the kids he's married.
Okay.
So, but they, you know, they,they, they were just starting to

(49:35):
experience some things asretirees.
And then my dad was diagnosedwith lung cancer.
And what I saw was him nearlydying and this hellish treatment
in at 19 or 20, that I wasaround that age, it was like,
well, I'm not thinking about thefuture.
I'm not saving money.
I'm living in the moment, youknow, forget religion, forget

(49:56):
all that stuff.
You know, it's all, it's all acrock.
And, uh, so I kind of wentextreme and I think some people
at that age do that anyways.
But I was fueled by, I think,again in hindsight that the pain
of watching my dad's suffer andhe was just larger than life
figure.
And then there he was with afeeding tube and you know, in

(50:16):
the hospital and all thesethings.
And thankfully, um, through somevery radical treatment, they
were able to get ahead of hiscancer.
And he lived another 20 years.
And you know, I kinda came backaround towards the center of
being a little more moderatewith my own lifestyle.

(50:37):
And, and that's when I met Jan.
And then she got diagnosed and Ikinda went back out that way.
But, um, but I remember askingmy dad a few months before he
passed, I said, yeah, Dad, whereare you?
Are You mad about that?
That you retired?
All this happens?
And he was like,[inaudible] youkidding me?
You know, and another 20 yearsand you know, grandkids and

(51:04):
great grandkids, the experiencesthat he had and he's seen every
day above ground is a good day.
And Yeah, there are people inthe world who are suffering and
that's not a true statement foreverybody.
But for me, it really hit me tothink I care if someone, he was
85 when he told me this was afew months before he passed, I
was like, I need to find thelesson to this.

(51:24):
Yeah, this is very true.
What he's saying right now.
And then, and my dad passed and,and uh, may of 2014.
So, you know, I, in losing aparent is tough and especially
because my, my, I had moved backfrom New York.
Okay.
A little, um, about a year.
A little more than a year beforethat.

(51:45):
And I had kind of, I really wasreconnecting with my parents.
I, I left New York for manyreasons, but the most important
was that my parents were in the80s and Jen had died.
And I thought, holy crap, why amI not there with them?

Speaker 3 (51:57):
Okay.

Speaker 2 (51:58):
So I'm glad that I came back and had that time with
him, you know, and then a fewmonths after that, my mom
passed.
My Dad was May 30th, my mom wasDecember 29th of 2014 which is
not surprising that they, um,are close in passing, you know,
but it, you know, it was all thesudden it was like, okay, wait a

(52:20):
minute.
You know, there no, my parentsare gone.
Right.
And the thoughts that came fromthat, um, I think that with Jen
and her passing and my parentspassing, I thought I had this
idea about mortality and nowI'm, I just turned 45 yesterday.
But now I think about it and,uh, thank you.

(52:41):
I think about my own mortalityand all the sudden it's like,
oh, that's, it's one thing tothink about, but yeah, everyone
else is going to die.
But it's like, oh shit.
Um, I'm in that everybody else.
And so, you know, I think I'mexperiencing these losses at
this age is no, it's definitelychanged how I am living my life.

(53:07):
And I think I mentioned earlier,there are times where I'm, I'm,
I have that thought like, Ohman, I'm on a diet.
It's socks.
Like I really like being alive,you know?
Yeah.
But then there are moments wherethat thought is just inspiring
and it makes me want to live mylife the way that I want

Speaker 5 (53:26):
to live it.
It makes me want to, okay.

Speaker 2 (53:29):
Follow the feelings that I have in my dreams and
trust my gut and not be soconcerned about what other
people think or keeping up withwhat other people have or buying
things to buy things and livingmore of a quality in my eyes.
I quality life and feeling likeI'm doing the things in my heart

(53:49):
is telling me to do.
And, and I'm doing my doing mybest to do them well.
And you know, with, with mymarriage, with my family, with
my friends, with my work, thething at the end of the day,
like,

Speaker 5 (54:02):
yeah,

Speaker 2 (54:04):
I did my best, you know, I, I think that's, that's
more important to me thenrecognition or financial
success.
Yeah.
I want to be able to do thingsand the cost money and all that
stuff.
But at the end of the day, like,you know, I want to, I want to

(54:25):
go to sleep thinking yeah, thiswas a great day.
I was present.

Speaker 1 (54:30):
I think you telling me a story that Liz met an older
couple, I can't remember whatthe difficulties for, but it was
something about something abouteven with all this junk, when
you know all these things arehappening because I related to
it with the idea there's alwaysall cybers in her life.
But he said something like,

Speaker 2 (54:52):
but

Speaker 1 (54:53):
is there something wrong in this current moment?
Can you talk about that?
Cause I, cause I think that'simportant.
Again, you know, we're kind oftalking this big picture stuff
and I'm like, okay, his wifedied that you feel that.
But I thought this was a realpractical way of just catching
yourself.
Yeah.
Liz was

Speaker 2 (55:10):
Liz, um, I'd be friend of this older couple and
she was talking with thegentleman the one day and they
were talking about, um, she wastalking about something that was
bothering her and, and I, if Iremember the story correctly, he
had said, yeah, but you knowwhat's wrong right now.
And she kind of told the storyagain.

(55:31):
He's like, yeah, but what'swrong right now?
And every time she would startto say something, it was like,
no, no, no.
Like, like, what's wrong rightnow?
I remember the first time Liztold me that, and it was like,
that is so profound that I'mgoing to argue against it again.
It's so clear that you're right.
But you know, it's almost one ofthose things, it's so simple

(55:52):
that when you realize it, yourealize how simple it is.
But it's not easy to get to thatpoint.
It's not a simple thing torecognize her practice.
And there are the Times whereI'm winding myself up and I've
spent too much time worryingabout something.
I think about Liz saying what'swrong right now?
And it's like nothing, you know,like my belly is full, I'm

(56:15):
healthy, I can see and hear andwalk.
I woke up today, you know, like,so it was, I think that's,
that's one of the things aboutLiz that, that I really cherish
the most is, you know, she hashad those experiences and, and
we both have our faults andwe're both stubborn as can be

(56:38):
and we have the dumbestarguments that at a certain
point it's like, I don't evenknow where this started or what
we started arguing.
It's kind of comical.
We said we were going to putvideo cameras around the House
that we are, you, we can lookback the next day and laugh at
herself.
But, um, but she's, you know,we, we are learning how to let
the other person not be perfectand practicing acceptance and

(57:00):
also listening when the otherperson says, you know, like
again, just take a step back fora minute and not getting
defensive because I want to beangry and stopping and thinking,
okay, I trust Liz, not just asmy wife, but as a person.
She's got a good, her judgmentis really good and really strong

(57:24):
and so I'm going to listen toher.
You know, I remember over theyears after Jen pass, thinking
of how I, I knew more about lovethan other people because I, I
carry Jen's casket and Iremember kind of the humbling
moment of realizing I don't knowmore than someone else.
I just, I have my experience andI think with Liz, we've really

(57:48):
tried to appreciate that in eachother, you know, that these
experiences have made us who weare.
And that's why we fell in loveand why we said, you know, yeah,
that's, that's runoff from themountains, get married.
And I am thankful to havesomeone in my life who can every
now and then just sort of whenI'm going off on that, that

(58:12):
wrong angle can just sort ofturned me around and helped me
get back on a more, a more TruePath.
Right.
You know, so we're winding thisup.
Is there anything else Ishould've asked you again?
I mean I'll bring it back to,we're talking about how people

(58:33):
get to transitions.
I think what I've had to try toaccept is that I'm just figuring
things out a day at a time stepat a time and that there are
things that make so much senseto me and then something else
happens and the challenges that,and I'm becoming more okay at
accepting that things will bechallenged and that things that

(58:55):
I think that I might know mightturn out to, to not be that at
all.
You know, that something mayhappen.
The challenge is that, and forme, moving on with my life has
just been accepting that painand feeling that pain of losing

(59:15):
someone gen my parents orwhatever it is.
It doesn't have to be on thatlevel.
I think.
I think it's important to feelthings.
I think it's, if something hurtsor is confusing to not just put
in a box and put it away becauseit's gone arise to the surface.
You know, we had, uh, I, um, oneof the doctors, I think it was

(59:38):
Jen's general, so generalpractitioner who said to her,
you know, you're going to havethoughts.
This was after Jen was diagnosedand she had said, you know, give
him milk and cookies.
Let them enjoy them.
And once they cleaned theirplates and them on their way, I
think it's important whetherit's through a massive loss, I

(01:00:01):
being widowed or losing a parentor a loved one or whatever it
is.
I think it's important just to,to give these feelings they're
do and not try and do a quickanalysis.
Answer it.
Okay.
Move on.
I think it's important too, tothink about these things and

(01:00:22):
feel them and make sure you,you, you don't leave anything
behind on the table becausethose things will come back and
it hurts.
It's painful.
You know, I've spent many nightsjust in a days, um, but I had to
get through it and I'm, I'mthankful now that I did that,

(01:00:45):
that I chose that path of, offacing these fears and
continuing to face them.
You have to give yourself abreak too.
But I just think it's importantto face these things and talk
about these things.
And if you, if someone is goingthrough something like this, I
think it's so important just tobe there.
You don't have to have theanswers for people.
We didn't expect people to havethe answer for breast cancer.

(01:01:07):
Right.
But we did hope that they wouldcome see us or be near us or
send a text message saying, Hey,I love you or send a car to do
something.
You know, I've been fortunate toshare a lot of my feelings in my
life, whether through thesephotographs or other series that
I've done.

(01:01:27):
And um, I talked to a lot ofdifferent magazines and websites
around the country and aroundthe world about the photographs
of Jen.
And I did find that in thestates, people weren't as
willing to go as deep intothings as in some other

(01:01:47):
countries.
You know, I remember I, Chinesemagazine wanted to know, you
know, with those last momentswhere with Jen and I just really
enjoyed that they wereinterested in knowing that part
of mortality.
Enjoyed is a strange word Iguess.
But I was just happy that theysaid, hey, tell us about this.

(01:02:08):
Don't wrap it up.
Like, oh, she took her lastbreath.
It was beautiful.
It wasn't, it was, it was, itwas crazy.
You know, it was so strange.
But you find someone

Speaker 1 (01:02:20):
when you're gone this find someone who will listen,
you know?
Uh, don't hold it in, you know,because I know people who are
holding these things in and Ijust see it eating them up and
it's gonna rise to the surface,you know?
So if I could say one thingthat's been the most important
to me, it's been those peoplewho have just at times just let

(01:02:40):
me be sad, you know, like yeah,watch out because sometimes
people go too far down that.
But there are times where peoplejust wanted me to feel better
and it was like Christ, I just,you know, it was just widowed a
couple months ago.
Can I be sad?
And so, you know, I think weneed to let these things be
felt.
And if you're a creative persontrying to find a creative

(01:03:05):
outlet, it doesn't have to bethat you make of something for
the rest of the world to see.
It can be for yourself.
But for me, you know, I have aseries about, um, I inherited my
dad's chair every pass and I'vephotographed a bunch of people
in that chair and it was aboutthese people, some of them are
family, some friends, some justpeople I had met and thought

(01:03:27):
were interesting and they cameto the studio and we had a cup
of coffee and we talked.
And then I made therephotographing with that.
That's been my way of coming toa better piece about my parents
passing.
So I guess I'm kind of ramblingat this point.
I just think you gotta get thestuff out.
You know, I think if you hold itin, it's going to become a

(01:03:48):
wrecking ball.
I mean, what I've used thephrase with my peers dealing
with Alzheimer's, it's like somepoint you got to lean in.
It's like you have to go intoit.
If you keep avoiding it, youdon't live, you don't, I mean,
you don't give it a chance toshape you, nor, yeah, it, it

(01:04:15):
doesn't work I guess is all Ifound myself.
It doesn't work.
It's like you, you, you have tolike dive into it and then see
where that goes.
Yeah.
The second thing, which is adifferent response, um, that
I'll do more as a mother.
I so often want my kids to justhear what we're talking about

(01:04:36):
and get the lesson and not haveto live it.
But in listening to you, it'slike, I don't think so.
I mean, I think, you know, youmight get a glimpse of stuff,
but it's like each got to live.
Yeah.
Your experience and okay.
You know, it's like I can't dothat for them.
I can't it.

(01:04:57):
Yeah.
So I mean that's just what wascoming through my head as you're
talking that everybody's got togo through their piece of life
and take something from it.
And that's when they'll know it.
And again, there are guides andscouts and stuff.
Well, yeah, I think that'sincredibly important to even an

(01:05:17):
extension

Speaker 2 (01:05:18):
of what I was saying about feeling at yourself is
letting other people feel it aswell.
You know, let everybody havetheir journey and their
interpretation of something andbeing willing to hear what other
people have to say.
Because, you know, I think it'seasy to think we know it all.

(01:05:38):
And I think for me, um, beingthe youngest of 11, I've often
deferred to people who are olderthan me just because I was
growing up.
There was always someone who wasolder than me, but you know, I
remember, um, throughout thisexperience starting to recognize

(01:05:59):
that, you know, I have my ownvoice and I have my experiences
and, and the importance of goingthrough that is what to me has
made me confident in my beliefsand that, yeah, this is how I
feel about something.
And this is important because Ifeel like I've given it the time

(01:06:21):
deserves.
After Jen died, I remembertrying to control things because
when Jen was sick, we had tocontrol a lot of things.
You know, we had to watch hermedications, we had to watch
where we went, germs, this,that, the other, whatever it
was.
And I remember one time, um, Iusually set up a little later

(01:06:43):
than Jen and I left.
Uh, I'd leave a bowl in the sinkor something like that.
And that would always bug her towake up to that.
And I remember saying, well,come on.
Like, how is that a problem whenyou have cancer?
What does that even matter?
And I didn't understand why itwas important for her to wake up
to a clean kitchen and Ra's aresocial workers said, well, she's

(01:07:05):
losing control of her body andthat's something she can
control.
And it helped me to betterunderstand why and to think,
okay, like I should clean up atthe end of the night and to help
her with that.
And after Jen passed, I startednoticing those things about
myself.
I was trying to controlsituations and everything so

(01:07:26):
that I just didn't, I knew howfragile I was and I knew that
the slightest thing could easilyset me off.
And so I was trying to make surethat everything I did went
according to plan and at acertain point it was just like I
was, I wasn't living life, Iwasn't experiencing things

(01:07:47):
because you know, one time I wasat my brother's house and I
started to become so obsessiveabout things that I went in to
use the bathroom, I wash myhands and I looked over and I
was like, where's the toiletseat?
Up or down?
When I came in, I sat therehaving a near panic attack and

(01:08:08):
grant it was, there was so manyother things that probably were
feeding into that panic but overthe toilet seat being up or down
because I didn't want to leavehis house different from how it
was when he, you know, so thatwas one of the breaking points
of just thinking, okay, I can'tcontrol all these things.
And that was a major point forme in my own healing and

(01:08:28):
transitioning, uh, through thismorning.
And this pain was kind ofletting go of that need to
control everything and to knowlike, yeah, here's what I'm
thinking about doing or this iswhy I like to happen, but might
not come back to me that way.
And if it does and I can eithertry to, um, fight something as

(01:08:51):
much more powerful than me or Ican accept it for what it is and
go from there.
And I think that's reallyimportant in this situation of,
or this experience of healingand moving forward is being
willing to bend, you know, andnot trying to control
everything,

Speaker 1 (01:09:11):
right.
Because not only is it thenegative side that you're
talking about, but it also meansyou're open.
Then two things you never wouldhave envisioned that to send you
off.
I wonderful adventure.
Right, and that's okay too.
Yeah.
I'm going to wrap it up.
All right.
You think, okay.
This wraps up today's visit withAngela Marron.

(01:09:31):
Dino.
He's a photographer and still ayoung husband whose journey
through illness and death reallyemphasizes the exact opposite.
How these really tough andsometimes horrible things can
lead us to focusing on theopposite love and life.

(01:09:52):
Thanks for this.
You've been listening to passingthrough life.
I show that explores how peopleget through major life changes.
If you've enjoyed this podcast,please leave a wonderful review
in apple podcasts that will helpnew listeners know more what to
expect, and you can email me at[inaudible] through life

(01:10:15):
[e-mail] feel free tocomment about this show or
suggest people in topics forfuture episodes.
I'm Leanne Bull Becker.
Thanks again for joining us.

Speaker 7 (01:10:46):
[inaudible].