May 29, 2019 • 60 mins
Transitions thrust us into new worlds.
What's it like when that new world is an ocean away? And in a foreign country with another language and different cultural, religious, and political perspectives?
Our podcast guest, Kevin Risner, was an English major whose love of the language led him in a variety of directions, one of which was to teach English to students in Istanbul, Turkey.
Follow along as Kevin not only moves to a foreign country, but experiences transitions involved in evolving from student to teacher, and also constantly expanding from teacher to writer.
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NOTE: This show transcript is still raw. Once final edits are made, it will be noted right here in the show notes.
This episode was recorded 11.21.18. All portions are copyright 2018 Luanne Bole-Becker.
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Here are links to some of Kevin Risner's writing work:
My Ear is a Sieve
https://bunkysbooks.com/collections/bottlecap-press/products/my-ear-is-a-sieve-by-kevin-a-risner
Lucid
http://thepoetryannals.co.uk/#june
Poetry anthology that includes one Risner poem in it; all profits from this collection go to Save The Children
http://thepoetryannals.co.uk/#winter
Information about bombings Kevin Risner talked about:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_Istanbul_bombings
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2003_Istanbul_bombings
Link to Pamuk’s novel Snow
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/11691.Snow
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
This is passing through life I show that
explores how people navigatemajor life changes.
Just how do we make it throughwhat life throws at us.
I'm your host LuanneBole-Becker.
Today's episode is calledshifting cultures.
It's episode number 11, aninterview with Kevin Risner.
(00:24):
He's a published poet and writerand he's currently the ESL
coordinator.
That's English as a secondlanguage at the Cleveland
Institute of art.
So Hi Kevin.
Thanks for joining us.
Of course.
Speaker 2 (00:36):
Cool.
Um, I like to start each episodeby explaining how my guest and I
know each other.
In your case, I feel like I'veknown you at least in passing
since you were just a youngster,you know, because our family and
your family, we went to the samechurch for literally decades.
Um, so I think I've thought ofyou more as a student because
(00:59):
our paths would cross at churchand in school.
Yeah.
And you're just a little bitolder than my oldest son, so
that kind of makes sense to me.
Yeah.
Uh, so, but then when I startedpaying a little closer attention
to what you were doing over thelast few years, it included the
fact that you are living andworking in Turkey and okay.
For two years.
(01:20):
Yeah.
Um, you're now teaching andcoordinating again English as a
second language and you'rewriting, you're writing poetry
and prose and mostly poetry.
Right.
I know, but still I'm startingto dabble back in said the pros,
Carrie.
Yeah.
Hoping to get going a little bitmore as the months progressed.
(01:40):
Okay.
And is the muse hits you?
So hopefully over the winterbreak.
Yeah.
So it's pretty unique and thoseare powerful experiences.
So what does seem a bitdifferent about our conversation
compared to some of the otherinterviews I've done?
Is your transition seem fluid?
Uh, probably less planned oftenor even expected?
Speaker 3 (02:03):
Yeah, I would say so.
Um, especially when it come,when it came to, um, teaching.
Okay.
And the decision to have that asmy career or decide upon that as
my career.
I never really, I mean I hadthought about it, but in most
cases it was something thatother people had mentioned to me
when I was in high school, whenI was in college and like, Oh,
(02:25):
you wouldn't make a really goodteacher if I told them
[inaudible] I'm going to um,school in English and I'm
majoring in English.
Like, oh, so you're going to bea teacher?
And you're like, no.
And right away I'm like, I don'tknow.
I like, one of the things I'vealways wanted to be growing up
in high school and just even nowis I want to be a writer and
(02:46):
that's the thing you wanted todo.
And so why?
I just, I just love stories.
I, I started reading, you know,ever since I was, no, I haven't,
I want to say five or six yearsold.
My mom told me that when I wasin kindergarten, I would take a
book out and start reading itout loud and I would actually be
reading, I guess to everyoneelse.
(03:07):
And so my kindergarten, she'd belike, oh, this is great.
Like, I don't have to do this.
[inaudible] so basically, yeah,I would read all the time and
I'm like, oh, it'd be so cool tolike put together all these, you
know, put together stories likethis.
So you know, and it, and itnever really went away.
Okay.
Speaker 2 (03:26):
Yeah.
And what I, you know, I namedthis shifting cultures because I
think you're a, of everyone I'mtalking to you so far, you're
the only one who has actuallymoved for a while to another
country.
And I think people may thinkabout that, but then back off.
So it's that.
But I also thought you'veshifted cultures as a student to
(03:48):
becoming a professional and ateacher kind of, you know, like
crossing the border.
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (03:56):
For many years, you know, and up until, you know.
Yeah.
My graduated BW, Baldwin WallaceCollege, and then, um, then I
kind of jumped all the way toteacher right away for two
years.
Then I went back to school toget my master's degree.
So I was like student andteacher again for awhile.
And then now again, full timeteacher who wouldn't, I still
(04:21):
consider myself a student insome way.
Just kind of trying to learn asmuch as possible even though,
you know, I'm not in classes.
Speaker 2 (04:28):
Yes.
Well one would hope.
I mean let's be verymetaphorical philosophical that
we're all students.
I mean that kind of makes lifemore interesting I think if you
look at it that you're alwayslearning.
So yeah.
Yeah.
Okay.
We can edit that out later.
So tell me what was your firstexposure though, to
international travel?
So, so we'll put aside thecareer a little bit and say,
(04:52):
whew.
Okay.
Apart,
Speaker 3 (04:54):
you know, going to Canada when I was a kid, um, the
first time I traveled abroad waswhen I was in high school.
There was a Spanish trip thatthe instructor really wanted to
put together.
And so I thought, oh, this was,this would be kind of fun to do.
Um, and so I was a part of thatand we went to different parts
of Spain for, I want to say aweek, week and a half or so.
(05:17):
And it was just, it was a lot offun.
Um, it was with a larger groupof people, so I knew a lot of
people, so it wasn't like, youknow, really frightening
experience.
It's not as daunting, you know?
And it was just really cool tojust, to be a part of that
culture.
And also, you know, at the timelearning a language, you're
like, oh, let's see if I can tryand use it in some capacity.
So that was a fun experiencetoo.
Speaker 2 (05:39):
Yeah.
Did you think then, I mean, wasthere any inkling then that you
might make either going abroador teaching international
students?
Speaker 3 (05:49):
It was more almost like, oh, this is fun.
I wouldn't mind going backabroad.
So again, you know, cause I knowme and my sister had traveled
abroad, my brother had as, so itwas more just like, oh this is,
this is cool.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So it would be a much later.
Speaker 2 (06:03):
All right, so I, your background is, and what is your
degree in?
Speaker 3 (06:08):
Um, I got a bachelor's degree in English.
Okay.
And that in general.
Okay.
So it was a lot of literatureand also, um, writing courses
and I wanted to make that myconcentration for the most part,
just because again, that's whatI love to do.
That was what I wanted to do.
So know I took journalismcourses on any sort of writing
course that was offered and Icould take it.
(06:29):
Um, that's what I did.
Speaker 2 (06:30):
So did you get part time jobs doing that or anything
with writing?
No,
Speaker 3 (06:36):
they're not really.
Um, after I graduated, after Igraduated, uh, Undergrad, I
actually didn't do much writing.
I just, I did writing for funand I started writing stories
and all of that, but I neverreally did anything related to
publishing.
Um, I was sort of in this weirdkind of moment where, okay, what
(06:56):
do I want to do, quote unquote,you know, as a career in like,
uh, uh, uh, I had toyed with theidea of getting a master's
degree, but then I'm like, Idon't know if I really want to
do that, like an MFA in writing,but, uh, that really didn't
spark my interest at the time.
So I
Speaker 2 (07:13):
was there anybody guiding you at this time?
I talked to
Speaker 3 (07:16):
a bit with, you know, a couple people who were in the
English department at BW.
Um, the writing instructor.
Um, when I started toying aroundwith the idea of getting a
master's degree, it was sort ofalmost past the point of
submission.
He kind of told me to wait untileyes, you know, did a lot more
(07:36):
work with my writing and have agood portfolio or something like
that before I would submit,which actually was a good thing
because um, that helped me delaythings a little bit.
And that summer is when Idecided, you know what?
Um, I had a few friends who kindof mentioned the, the idea of
traveling abroad again, um, orjust working abroad and that,
(08:00):
um, they knew some people whowere teachers.
Um, they taught English.
Um, two people from, you know,uh, I think Korea was one
location and some othercountries and they thought, you
know what, that was somethingyou, you might be interested in
because they knew I like totravel.
I had traveled, I'd studiedabroad as well.
So there was, you know, all ofthose past experiences that kind
(08:21):
of led them to think this wouldbe a really good
Speaker 2 (08:23):
okay.
And was that your first reactionwhen they talked to you, did you
say, Huh?
Oh
Speaker 3 (08:27):
yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
Because at the time I was, the,my main work after I'd graduated
was bartending.
It wasn't really exactly what Iwas going to school for.
So, um, so at the, I was alittle bit more amenable to my
peers, um, advice or at leastnudgings I guess.
(08:49):
So.
And I, and I thought about itand I'm like, oh, this is, this
would be kind of cool.
I mean, it would be, it would befun to, um, live else for a
little bit, um, do something.
And I, and I really enjoyed, um,the language itself.
I loved English.
I took a course, um, this, itwas called, the study of
language at BW is one of theonly linguistics oriented
courses.
So I was really intrigued byjust the intricacies of the
(09:09):
language and the history of thelanguage.
So I think that kind of helped.
That sounds unique to me thatyou would, you would bring an
aspect to teaching that perhapsnot most teachers would bring
this idea of just loving the, itwas just reading so much and
just seeing how words playedwith each other.
(09:30):
It was just a, it's, I wanted toshare my love of that, even if
it were with people whoseknowledge of the language is
very limited.
They only know some words hereand there, but just that
excitement I wanted to share andI think, I think it translated a
little bit with, with the, withthe students when I was in
Turkey and then even afterwards,so.
(09:51):
Okay.
Well, let's get you to Turkeythough, for, so how do you, um,
how do you learn this, thatyou've heard that people are
doing this?
How do you take courses,difficulties?
So I took a, um, it was, uh,basically an emersion sort of,
uh, I guess a certificationprogram.
Um, so over the summer in 2007,um, the, the name of the company
(10:14):
was Oxford seminars and I'mpretty sure they're still
around.
Um, but basically it was maybeabout a month or so, um, over
the weekend, very long courses,Saturday and Sundays where we
had an instructor talking about,you know, the different methods
of teaching.
So there were more educationoriented courses, but then also,
(10:37):
um, courses related to justbasic travel, you know, how, how
does one live abroad, thingslike that.
So it was a pretty well roundedprogram and we also had to put
together a practicum, you know,also teach in front of everyone
as if they were English languagelearners.
So it was a, it was a reallygood experience for me.
(10:59):
And at that time Sh uh, theinstructor, she sort of told us
a little bit about theapplication process of how do
you apply for schools, um,outside of the United States,
what the, what that processmight entail, which could be
complicated depending on whereyou go.
So, um, so there was that.
And so I got my certification, Iwant to say, was it, I think it
(11:20):
was the beginning of August, soAugust of 2007.
And so that's when I startedlooking around and seeing, okay,
where would I like to go?
And my initial, um, thoughtswhere Eastern Europe just
because that's where myancestors are from.
Um, Slovakia specifically.
So I kind of was looking aroundthat area at first.
(11:40):
And the good thing at the timewas that as somebody from the
United States teaching abroad,that was an area that was a
little bit easier to get intojust because they were starting
to become a part of the EuropeanUnion, or at least they were
processing in.
So, um, some of the othercountries that were a part of
the European Union such asGreece or France or some of
(12:00):
those other countries, theypreferred, um, instructors from
the UK or Ireland just becauseof the whole visa process, red
tape and all of that fun stuffas he changed.
I mean, how difficult is it ingeneral, don't know how
difficult it is right now.
Um, but I, and who knows howdifficult it will be in the
future with, you know, thecurrent relationship between the
(12:22):
UK and the EU, how that all willentail.
And the next few years.
But, um, at the time in 2007, itwas very easy for people who,
you know, are, were English orIrish or, um, to actually head
over there and teach in parts ofEurope.
So Slovakia, other parts ofeastern Europe, it was a lot
easier.
(12:43):
So you're aiming for, so I, soyeah.
So I applied for a few programsin Slovakia and the Czech
Republic as well.
I think I looked at a coupleschools in Poland, just that
whole area.
And, uh, the first fewresponses, uh, we're from the
Czech Republic and they werestraight out.
Sorry.
We don't know.
It was, it was nice.
(13:04):
They were nice emails, but itwas not a polite rejection.
Yes, yes.
So, and I was, after a few weekswith very limited success, I was
starting to get a little bitconcerned.
I, I honestly didn't know howlong it was going to take for
someone to say, Oh yeah, let's,let's talk a little bit more.
Let's set up an interview totalk, anything like that.
(13:24):
Um, so I sent a message to theinstructor who, um, was a part
of my, um, certification programand she said, well, why don't
you branch out a little bit,don't just set your sights only
on eastern Europe.
And so, um, she had mentionedTurkey is one location.
And um, at first I'm like, ah, Idon't know.
I really didn't think about thata country as a place I would be,
(13:48):
you know, would be a teacher.
And then as I was doing a littlebit more research, I just
decided to go with it and youknow, apply to a few different
places.
And uh, um, this one, uh,language school English time
decided to respond to me andsay, Hey, let's, yeah, I'm
interested.
We are interested in that.
Set up a time to talk.
So, and then we talked and allthat and they said, hey, when,
(14:12):
when do you want to come and uh,teach, which it's funny
[inaudible] I'm talking to.
Okay.
Yeah.
I mean we had, it was a halfhour interview or so, you know,
about 30, 35 minutes, you know,conversation.
And that was, I want to say andI'd say mid September I think.
And they asked, Oh and do youwant to, you know, come over and
(14:35):
we can start setting up theprocess of getting residents or
residents feast and all thisother stuff.
And so I think yeah, end ofOctober is when I said okay that
should be enough time.
Which, and the time went reallyquick.
Room went really quickly.
Your reaction when you get off
Speaker 2 (14:52):
the phone cause cause this wasn't, again this wasn't
what you were planninginitially.
It was more like okay and youprobably weren't expecting to
get this job.
It was, I think I was more,
Speaker 3 (15:05):
I don't want to say numb, but it was more, it didn't
process fully at the time.
And I told my mom, my dad aboutit and then started telling a
few other people about it and Ithink it started to sink in a
little bit more after that.
And it was more of a, Oh my God,I'm actually going to be moving
in a month or so to anothercountry.
And I don't know anyone there.
And I don't know the languageand all that.
(15:27):
Yeah.
So yeah, it was, yeah, honestly,
Speaker 2 (15:33):
I had to look up Turkey.
I'm admitting it exactly whereit, because you have this, I had
this sense and when I looked itup, I didn't feel that bad, that
sometimes it's considered partof Europe, sometimes it's
considered part of Asia.
We think about it as mid east,you know, went with like the
political stuff.
So tell me, yeah, I mean, so howdoes both it yeah.
Speaker 3 (15:53):
Uh, it's, it's really funny, the boss first that cuts
is stumble and half, that's theborder between Europe and Asia.
So the city is in bold on bothcontinents, which is pretty
cool.
And, uh, I lived on the Asianside when I was in Turkey, so,
Speaker 2 (16:08):
but what was the reaction back then?
Because right now, you know,Turkey's got some instability.
Um, but like how did you know,family, friends react to, is
that seen as a dangerous placeto go or just very exotic or,
Speaker 3 (16:22):
I think both.
Um, also I think they were alsoexcited for me, you know, but I
think there was some slightconcern just because, um, you
know, it's 2007 so the war inIraq was still underway.
And so Turkey was really, itwas, you know, part of it
borders or acts.
So I think there was someconcern there.
And I think, I mean, I had toreiterate because, you know, I
(16:46):
did do a little research centerand Istanbul pretty far on the
western side of the countryversus the eastern borders of
Iran and Iraq.
Speaker 2 (16:56):
So to prepare, do you think you prepared well for
this?
So thinking back
Speaker 3 (17:03):
some ways, yes.
Just in general, just kind ofwhat do I need to bring with me,
you know, um, certain basiccomponents.
Uh, I felt as if one of thebiggest things I felt I could
have done a little bit better islearn a little bit more of the
language.
I took out a book from thelibrary and just learn the
(17:25):
basic, you know, hi, how areyou?
Sort of things.
But I really wasn't, I didn'treally spend a lot of time with
that because in my mind Ithought, okay, is this big city?
Uh, don't, don't know English.
I don't have to worry too much.
Which, you know, that, that typeof mindset, maybe not the best
one to have no matter whereyou're going in the world.
(17:45):
I mean, I just know that in Romefor example, in Italy, that's
the same thing when I was, causeI visited there when I was
studying abroad.
And, um, depending on where yougo, you know, there, there'll be
people who will know thelanguage, but you know, it's not
as, you know, people aren't asknowledgeable as you might think
in on the Asian side of the citywhere I was put up and wound up
(18:06):
living when I got an apartment.
After a few months there, um,there was very limited English,
um, that people knew there.
Um, my first day there.
So for the first day, um, when Igot set up and everything, um,
at the, well they call it thelotion, the apartment complex,
um, where I was staying, youknow, in connection with the
(18:27):
school.
Um, I went out to get food and Ijust went to the nearest one of
the nearest cafe slashrestaurant and I asked him a
question, LG, you speak English?
And he's just like, no, that'sbasically all the English he
knew is that, or just thatquestion.
He knows that okay, if all hehears the term like so.
(18:51):
So yeah, that was my first kindof foray into the, okay, so not
everyone is going to knowthings, so we're going to have
to start adapting reallyquickly, which I wound up doing,
which was, it's good.
I haven't learned at least someof the survival skills right
away of, you know, here are thethings I need to know.
Here are the terms I need toknow.
One of the other things I wish Idid take a class.
I never did take a a Turkishclass there, but after,
(19:12):
especially after two yearsliving there, um, I, I felt I
learned a good amount.
Um, I remember going to theairport from where I was on the
Asian side.
It's a good, pretty decent like,you know, amount of time a drive
there.
I wound up having a, at least avery basic conversation with the
cab driver, which was prettycool.
(19:32):
But yeah, that was one of, thoseare some of the things I kind of
wish I did a little bit more oflike first off learning a little
bit more than I did when I gotthere before I got there.
And then actually maybe taking acourse, becoming a lot more, I
don't want to say fluent, buthaving a much more advanced
level of the language oradvanced knowledge of the
(19:53):
language than I did.
Okay.
I mean you've got a couple ofpounds that sort of deal with
the first impression.
Yeah.
My first, I mean the poetry bookthat or the Chapbook that I have
published, uh, title is my ears,assertive.
It, it chronicles a lot of myexperiences when I was living in
Istanbul.
Um, and then other poems, mostof them near to the end of the
(20:14):
collection talk about a lot ofthe instability and some of the
more political, um, thatpolitical situation that, um,
was and is currently happeningin, in Turkey as a whole.
And sort of my reaction to it aswell as sort of conveying what a
lot of my friends who are stillliving there kind of what their
thoughts and experiences were.
(20:35):
So did you write those while youwere there?
Um, some of them, yes.
Um, so especially these firsttwo.
Yeah.
Yeah, because it captures, Iassume then what you were
feeling and since some of thosetransitions it's like, so, um,
the first one, uh, in thecollection day one is basically
what transpired on that firsttime I was sure.
(20:57):
So here's the, here's the, uh,the poem.
Day One, the plane landedsmoothly.
I walked through customs, theoverhead lighting, less clinical
than in most airports.
It was almost soothing waitingfor an entrance visa.
And then for my lone suitcase,there was my name in black block
(21:18):
letters behind it.
Someone from my future place ofemployment picking me up.
He knew English, but his wordswere mumbles.
At the outset.
I tried to strain my ears tocatch his narrative, but soon a
wall rows between us in that vanas we saw it across the
Bosphorus, the yellow lines onthe highway invisible.
All I saw around me was a sea ofRed Turkish flags flying out of
(21:42):
every window draped acrossalleyways, fluttering from the
flag poles by every Ataturkstatue at every intersection.
The following day was a nationalholiday.
My new apartment set surroundedby identical buildings, offices
and high rises, apartmentblocks, and more Turkish flags.
The Sky was gray that day.
(22:03):
It mirrored the concreteendlessness of Hassan Pasha.
My landlord took the reins.
He said hello to me.
Spoke one of the few words Iknew Marhaba led me pass the
front doors, showed me aroundthe entire place, pointed out
the various rooms and differentobjects named their Turkish
equivalent.
(22:23):
I would not each time he said aword, and I would say another
word.
I already knew Tom.
Okay.
A laid, I laid down that nightstaring at the ceiling of my new
bed, but not really my bed.
I started to read or Han pumpmoocs, snow, a going away gift
from a friend.
It was a book I did not fullyappreciate at the time.
(22:46):
Not until much later when I knewmore about the city and the
country where I would live fortwo years when I found out much
more than ever than I everthought I would about it.
And Its history and itstenuousness snow held a double
meaning like most things here.
And a snow actually in Turkishis cars, which is actually a
(23:09):
city on the, in the eastern partof the country where this book
is set in and so, and the mainnarrator, I'm trying to remember
his exact name, but it's kind ofsimilar to the name of the city
as well as snow and it's, it'sset in the winter.
So there's all these differentmeetings with the, the book,
which is why I thought, oh, thisis such a cool text.
(23:30):
But anyway, I think that lastsentence, do you want to expand
on that a little bit more aboutdevil meanings?
Um, well just the idea of whenwe think about Turkey and when
we think about, you know, aplace that we don't know about,
you know, we're going to see,we're going to have this
perception of the place beforewe get there.
And then when we experience it,when we hear what other people
have to say about who livethere, um, we're going to get a
(23:53):
new perception, very willing tolearn a lot more than we thought
we would ever learn about theplace.
And then as you know, timeprogresses and even after you
leave, you have that connection.
You have that knowledge.
And so when other thingstranspire, when you, people tell
you about, you know, why doeshappening, you kind of have
this, I don't want to sayinsider knowledge, but you know,
(24:15):
there is this connection and yourealize the complexities that
exist, you know, in the world.
So,
Speaker 2 (24:22):
and it sounded like you didn't bring a lot of
luggage.
Did you know it was a bigsuitcase, but it was,
Speaker 3 (24:28):
yeah, just one, a lot of clothes, you know, a couple
of book.
Speaker 2 (24:31):
Okay.
The second one I asked you to dois about the cafe.
Speaker 3 (24:36):
Oh, sorry.
Or that, or is it just to savehis arm?
Um, yeah, this one is justanother experience I had.
I'm just at one of the bizarre,you know, a market place.
I'm on the Asian side.
Um, every Tuesday they would, itwould be set up and all of that.
And just, uh, one of the otherexperiences I had just, um, one
that I really never had here.
(24:56):
I didn't really go to any openmarkets much.
You know, I would see the westside market for example, but
that would, but I wouldn'tactually be immersed in it and
buy things there.
Yeah.
But here it's more, I'm actuallygetting buying stuff for me and
[inaudible] and much larger tothen then west side market.
But when I, I just, when I thinkabout going to the west side
(25:18):
market now I kind of have thatkind of, you know, trying to
compare kind of how things aredone, right?
You have the vendors can ofcalling you over and like, Hey,
you take this, you try this.
It's kind of cool.
But anyway, so the titleTuesday, bizarre.
One quick gymnast leap down theroad, you hail a taxi man, arms
out the window holding acigarette.
He does not care for those newantismoking laws.
(25:41):
He tapped ash over the loosechange.
So you don't pick any of it up.
You want a short trip to thebizarre, you only want to
photograph, take it all in handtightly around your wallet, but
you bring back a block of Phetato royal eggplants, sprigs, a
fennel, black olives.
You are told to taste before youbuy them, just to make sure they
(26:02):
are what you want.
That ancient grandmother winksand reaches into the olive
barrel, takes the large pittedone grins and points.
That's the kind to get here.
And they're a seller chanceKurdish one hums near the
discount.
Onions, every single one in thecrate.
Shriveled, not worth the lira.
You buy half a kilo, a shoeseller by your exit eyes.
(26:24):
You glares that throw linenshrouds over the aisles and the
bustle of shoppers, you turn onetoe out of line, speak one
syllable of English.
Any has your thoughts.
He keeps[inaudible] at thosedamn foreigners.
Click clicking at postcards andforgetting what it means to be
normal.
But everyone forgets.
Speaker 4 (26:44):
Yeah.
Ken[inaudible],
Speaker 3 (26:48):
how long were you there the first time?
The first time.
It was about a year.
Oh yeah.
And the same thing the othertime.
How did you manage it?
How did it go the first year?
Um, well the first year it waspretty good.
Almost like a honeymoon stagefor the most part.
Um, where it was this, these newexperiences, um, a lot of
adapting, you know, obviouslybecause of the language and just
teaching you good at that.
(27:10):
I'm adapting.
Yeah.
I'd like to think I get likedepressed or it helped that I
had the ability to communicate,um, with everybody.
Um, from the u s um, I had, um,email, um, I had, uh, back in,
back in the day a, Oh, was itaim?
(27:33):
The instant messenger chat.
I have that.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So I was able to chat withpeople.
Um, Facebook helped with that aswell.
I was able to share kind ofwhat, how things were going and
what I was doing and all ofthat.
So in that sense, the secondtime around the same thing you
do well, yeah, I take it.
Um, I really loved it.
I loved teaching.
It was, I mean, of course, youknow, the first few months you
(27:53):
have to get used to everythingand you know, learning about
some of the, at least thegrammatical terms that you
thought you knew, but then youdidn't know these technical
words for them.
And so after awhile you can getused to, you know, teaching, um,
English to a variety of levels.
So who are the students?
I mean, who's taking theseclasses?
Just about everybody.
These are, these are theseparticular language schools.
(28:15):
It's for, um, p, uh, a lot ofhigh schoolers who are trying to
get into the university.
So people, um, who, you know,after they're done with I guess
classes, they go to theseclasses.
Yeah.
Um, and do a little bit moreEnglish practice.
Also a lot of professionals, alot of people, um, business
people will take these coursesthrough their work.
(28:36):
Um, especially if they had, um,uh, if they are a business or
there's a lot of international,um, clout for that business.
They, they want their workers toactually, um, no English pretty
well because especially ifthey're doing work, you know,
let's say Turkey too.
I know tricky in Germany, let'ssay I'm having that English
(28:57):
knowledge is really beneficial.
Speaker 4 (28:59):
Okay.
Speaker 3 (29:01):
So we've talked about that the language is different
and maybe not understandingthat, but how was it being, how
is Turkey different thanAmerica?
Um, I mean, the city itself isstable.
It's just a huge metropolis.
So if you think about a lot ofother metropolises across the
world, it's, there's a lot ofdifferent people there.
Um, one of the biggest thingsfor me, um, just because of
(29:23):
growing up, you know, inCleveland area, um, especially
within, you know, the LutheranChurch for example, um, that was
for the most part kind of whatmy experience was and I'm then
going to assemble in a way Iwasn't the minority, right?
Yeah.
Nine yet.
Even liver.
So like 98% of them call, youknow, people call themselves
(29:45):
Muslim.
Even if a large number of themdo not practice it.
Um, just because big city, thereis a large spectrum just like
here, ideologies and everything.
People who are veryconservative, people who are
very liberal, right?
Depending on where you go in astumble, I'm just north of where
I was in, I was living incategory, which is a very, I
(30:07):
would say, Cosmopolitan area.
Um, a lot more liberal minded.
Um, if you go a little bit morenorth, um, in new scarf is it
looks good.
All right.
I think it is one of the otherdistricts north.
Um, it's a little bit moreconservative.
You, you'll see a lot more womenwith head scarves, for example.
Even Burkas, you know, um,that's something that, for me, I
(30:28):
didn't, I really wasn't exposedto much of, and just seeing that
was, it wasn't a shock, but itwas just something I wasn't
attuned to.
So it became a very normal thingfor me to see.
It sounds like obviously there'sa transition, you had
connections to home, but it wasnot uncomfortable.
It wasn't really, no.
Okay.
Um, and it's, when I look backon it, I was really, I'm, I'm
(30:50):
personally surprised.
I did pretty decently justbecause I think it was also
because I had a lot ofinteractions with some of the
other teachers.
So there was that familiarityper se with people who spoke
English.
But then I also had theinteractions with students, also
other teachers who were Turkish.
And so there was a, you know,that kind of mix.
But, um, yeah, as somebody whois very, very much introverted,
(31:14):
um, somebody who normallywouldn't jump into that tort
sort of thing, where you're,you're, you move to a new place,
you don't know anybody there.
It's a, it's in a way, a reallyfrightening thing.
Um, and I want, I, I think I didpretty decently considering
that.
And, um, and I've grown a lot.
I'm still, I consider myself anintrovert, but I've grown a lot
(31:35):
more extroverted and get a lotmore and I just, I get a lot of
energy within the classroom andI like interacting with
students.
But then there is that momentof, oh, okay, right.
I need to rebuild.
I needed to be energy for sure.
See you come home.
Were you thinking after thatfirst year that you had come
back?
I'm not right away.
(31:56):
Okay.
Um, although, um, I know thatthere was this moment where I
thought I would go back, um, ornot go back to Turkey, but I got
an email from a place in solucky that I had applied to
teach and they said, oh, we havethis opening, um, if you want
to, um, come back and teach.
(32:17):
And at the time I started datingMary and I thought, yeah, my
wife now, my now wife marriedand a at the time I'm like, ah,
I'm not going to go, I'm goingto stay here for a bit.
So yeah, it was personal stuff.
Yeah, sure.
It's good.
Um, so what makes the decisionthat you would go back then?
Because that doesn't seem tofigure it out if you're dating
(32:38):
someone might not work all thatI needed to, I needed to know
for sure if this is the thing Iwanted to do with teaching was
the thing I want to do.
If I wanted to teachinternational students and I
just wanted to a, I wanted justto experience Turkey as well.
Again, one more time[inaudible]you know, that connection.
(32:58):
But then also I really, I wantedto know if this was the thing
and I wanted to know for sure iswhat teaching is the one thing I
wanted to do.
And while I was in Turkey thatsecond time I applied to
graduate school, at that time, Iknew that if I wanted to teach
back in the United States,that's something that I needed.
(33:19):
So more practical elementsthere.
Um, and so yeah.
So after I was in Turkey, thenreturned back.
Were you writing?
So let's go back to your dreamwas to write, because you've
reminded me that yes, your pathwas initially you want to write,
you take teaching so that you'redoing something with the
language, et Cetera.
(33:40):
Um, does it feed at that pointyou're writing?
Do you feel you're more ateacher writer?
Um, I'd like to say I'm both,especially now.
Um, when I was living inIstanbul, I was doing some
writing here and there I woundup getting an actual hard bound
(34:00):
journal, which I hadn't had.
I would, you know, chroniclethings through an online journal
basically.
But I didn't have that, um, hardbound journal.
Um, and doing that really helpedkind of, I don't want to say
open my mind, but at leastallowed for all these thoughts
spinning around to actually beon paper.
(34:21):
And so I would chronicle thingsthat were happening, thoughts I
had and that led to, um, alittle bit more of that, the
more lyrical kind of types ofwriting.
You know, when you think ofpoetry and I'm trying to tell
the story through poetry asopposed to just, you know,
telling a story just in the,this is what happened, this
(34:42):
blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
And so, yeah.
And so that's when, uh, aboutmid 2008, that's when I started
to really put together somepoems about my experiences and
that's, um, and it was, it'sinteresting, I kind of shared
some of those poems with peopleand actually one of the people I
shared the poems with was Maryand she was one of the people
(35:02):
who was like, this is reallygood.
This is some of the best thingis, is some of the best stuff
I've ever read of yours.
So it kind of really said, oh,maybe I may say continued doing
what I'm doing with this.
And so, you know, I've beenjournaling, you know, like I
have my journal from right outthere right now too.
I've been doing that, I've beendoing that for the past 10
(35:23):
years.
And uh, um, yeah.
And I'm still writing poems andall that fun stuff.
So the, the other two pounds, ohyeah, she did consider, would
those fall within what you'retalking about now that those
there lyrical
Speaker 2 (35:38):
and, or, or still more narrative in a way?
I think this is the thing, likea lot of my work at camp
Speaker 3 (35:45):
really separate itself from an actual narrative.
Um, some of them are a littlebit more, yeah.
Um, I would say not perceptual,but they're there.
They don't have this set startand end.
Um, but, uh, I think in somecases there is some of my work
that has that component withinthem.
So it's a bit unique.
I Dunno.
Um, the ones that you hadmentioned that I'm, they could
(36:08):
read, um, for, for today, theydo have a very strong narrative
element to it because they arestemming from my experiences
there.
Speaker 2 (36:16):
Okay.
I don't know if you, if youwould, if you would.
Um, I picked a cafe becauseagain, this idea of being
immersed in another culture thatI think a lot of people have
some fear about.
Yeah.
Um, and so I, I got, I thoughtboth of those captured.
Yeah.
(36:36):
With cafe.
It's
Speaker 3 (36:37):
interesting because it's also talking about the
fears of the unknown or justpreconceived notions people
have, um, within the country.
So it's not even as somebody whocomes there as someone who's
never been to Turkey and Mikehave, you know, just assumptions
about the culture, about thepeople.
Um, this is actually focusing alot more on assumptions.
(36:58):
People within the country havethat.
I just, I realized right away,um, when it comes to just, if we
think about here, maybeassumptions people have about
people who are different thanthem from different backgrounds,
people from who come over here,kind of like how I was kind of
an immigrant, right?
Same sort of thing here where,you know, they don't know the
people, but you have theseassumptions about them.
(37:20):
So, uh, but this one is actuallyabout, uh, someone, it's more of
an acquaintance than anythingelse.
But, uh, basically this personwho, this is actually the second
time I returned.
Okay.
The second time I was inIstanbul and I was wondering,
Oh, where's so, and so?
And, uh, I found this out from afriend of mine.
(37:41):
Like, oh, this person isn't hereanymore.
There they went out, they wentback to their family farm and
they're there and they're happyand et Cetera, et cetera.
So this is a cafe I, me and myfriends would go to often.
So, um, the titles cafe, yousmile at each person entering
your cafe dice in your hands tostart back Emon beneath willowy
(38:01):
lights that hide unwantedprofiles and mask all actions
through the binoculars ofothers.
You practice your Englishphrases.
Fake tingy faintly with Turkishsuperficial twists, catching on
the smoke and the Chit chatafter hours.
A large party of us passingaround the Naga lay pipe to
catch the sweet mixture of roseand mint.
(38:23):
Google Nani, the haziest ofwords, all three syllables,
stretching for seconds.
You never mentioned yourancestry to me, but I had heard
about it from a friend offhandedly after left to farm in a
district part of the country.
The silence on the topic ofancestry comes from wariness,
unknown responses.
When other people hear the kword Kurdish, what instantly
(38:47):
pops up in their brains are evilterrorist, barbarian, baby
killer without a second'sthought.
The dissonance stains the wallson names, on certain names, over
letters that don't even exist inthe dominant language.
And still people will keepwalking upstairs into the cafe,
(39:07):
purchase t and Pucker lips onthe mouthpiece of the Mar
[inaudible] pipe, obscure theirvisions of others behind the
curtain, not pulled back untillater in life when some may be
more comfortable with oneanother, but not enough to
whisper the secrets that couldnow get one killed all our
targets.
(39:29):
Yeah.
So yeah, the, the person isKurdish and doesn't wish to
share that because I mean forme, someone who is a foreigner,
you know, there may not be thatperception, but something that
will likely not be a good ideato tell anybody coming into the
(39:50):
um, the cafe because you neverknow who that person, what their
perceptions might be aboutKurdish people.
Speaker 2 (39:57):
And again, I'm trying to make the parallel.
While we may have issues, we dohave issues with different
groups.
I don't know if we have thatunderlying that that feels so,
um, scary is all I can say.
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (40:14):
The, the, the constant sort of, I would say
him not mantra, but the constantinformation that gets shared is
this idea that all Kurdishpeople are the terrorists,
terrorists from south, thesoutheast that are coming there.
They're there.
I don't have the intelligence ofthe Turkish people in there.
They're just there to bombcertain, uh, um, soldiers and
(40:39):
just they're there to take overthe country basically.
And that's not really the case.
At least
Speaker 2 (40:44):
the majority of people.
You got to feel what it was likewith that being in the hearings
you and then hearing yeah.
Speaker 3 (40:51):
People saying, Oh yeah, the Kurdish people that,
yeah, they're, they're stupid.
They're, they're barbarians.
They don't know.
I know that they're supposed tobe doing, you know,
Speaker 2 (41:00):
this again reminds me, I truly believe everyone
should travel.
Um, you know, and not just forfun, um, it to be exposed.
You get so much of a newperspective on, sure.
Not only your own life, your owncountry.
When you see, oh my gosh, how isthat possible?
You know, why would somebodythink that?
(41:23):
Um, I know I asked for thesecond one and now I've even
forgotten what that can go.
Right?
Yeah.
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (41:28):
So this one is about, um, this is a district on the
European side of Istanbul a bitfurther away from a lot of the
touristy areas on the Europeanside.
Um, I actually had never heardof the district after, um, I
think it was maybe just under ayear.
(41:48):
Um, I had been in Istanbul andso this is basically just a one
very late evening basically goon is a place where a bomb
exploded in a, um, let's say aTrashman I think it was, and I'm
trying to remember the number ofpeople who die, but it was a,
you know, it was a very serioussort of thing and we had no idea
(42:11):
about it.
And it was actually somebodyfrom abroad who had texted a
friend at the party saying, areyou okay?
And we're all like, when theyhad the bombing happened, it was
that same day.
Okay.
That's pretty close.
Instant.
It's not just a site, they, itwasn't like two days later or
something.
It was that same day.
And apparently it just, it madethe news read hall who way in
(42:33):
the UK.
So it was this weird sort of,yeah, we're fine with what's
going on here.
And then we found out we wereall kind of like, oh my God,
like this happened.
So, um, so yeah, we have thebest view here.
Tiled rooftops coated withmicrobes that had to have been
eternal dust that would code ourlungs in the stagnant summer.
(42:54):
Me, asthma with the stacks ofapartment blocks, rickety and
pliable like our thoughtprocesses are sense of reason
leaning on ledges.
Half drunken and melodies are10:00 PM Sunday evening assembly
reinvents weekend workers whoare disaffected by Istanbul's
Ans untranslatable melancholy.
The word for that is who's in itdoesn't exist in the summer or
(43:19):
to hidden heavy and speckledwith clouds and somewhere.
Stars all masked and feverish.
Our roof pokes the sky.
Beer can stack and pyramids andmy bare feet latches onto the
grime from a v from a year of nomops.
One friend receives a messagefrom far away asking if he's
okay.
(43:40):
Of course we're all okayanswers, but of course everyone
isn't.
Not on the European side.
One Trash Bin, Smithereens allaround that spot at gaping
manhole, charred remnants ofstone, loose pavement,
dumpsters, sides of apartmentblocks, limbs, skin puzzle
pieces, reddish, Masih paint.
(44:02):
Tomorrow the bombing, we'll haveplastered TV screens and
hardware stores, endless filmfull of whaling.
Women, the mothers bodies notclearly defined because of the
shaky camera.
Renders are unblemished.
Selves mortified, ashamed thatwe simply keep walking around
and whistling beneath toastysummertime sun.
There is a brief touch of fear,but it disappears instantly in
(44:25):
the calm of twilight minutesafter the first message.
Those people we know and lovewho are far away far from our
grasp.
They are the ones who fear themost and they always will.
The scene replicates here andthere in other places, not just
here, even back where they thinkthey are safe.
(44:46):
We think we are safe on rooftopsevery single night.
Stars of of stars clean, clear,shimmering emblazoned with some
kind of brilliance that theclouds slinking over us.
Try to obscure.
So are you different because ofexperiencing that or that sort
(45:07):
of thing?
This, this particular, thebombing or just starving can
broaden it?
Um, it brought me down to Eartha little bit because I remember
there was a really horriblebombing that happened in
Istanbul in 2003.
Um, and it was a, it was theBritish embassy.
And so that, that one, thatparticular bomb killed hundreds
(45:30):
of people and it was a reallyhuge moment just because of its,
you know, how horrendous it was.
Um, and I actually totallyforgot about it when I started
applying.
And it's something, you know,when you think of all the
horrible things that arehappening all over the place,
just because, you know, we'repulled in so many directions, we
(45:52):
hear so many horrible things.
Um, we forget about themquickly.
And I think I realized thatagain when that happened and
like, oh my gosh, you know, youknow, anywhere, you know,
something like this couldhappen.
And I think about that now too,in the u s like when you get
(46:12):
news about another shooting thathappens at mass shooting that
happens and you, you, you kindof stop and you think, oh my
God, this could happen any placeand you know, we're not going to
be ready for say for it.
And I think that that momentwhere we, I found out about
like, oh my gosh, I mean itworks.
It's far, you know, it's symbolshuge.
It's sprawling and we're on thecomplete opposite side of the
(46:34):
city.
But still learning of that sortof thing happening, it kind of
stops us for about, it stoppedus for awhile and we're like,
wow, you know, that's horrible.
You know, like the next dayshe's like, you see the stuff on
the TV, you see all these, youknow, reports about it.
And in my head I'm like, I feelperfectly safe though right
here.
And, but then, you know, you getthe messages, oh, are you okay?
(46:56):
And the same thing happens likelet's say earthquake hit in
another part of Turkey.
All you hear is earthquake inTurkey.
Everybody freaks out like, oh myGod, are you okay?
Oh, your check.
And I'm like, are paying.
Yeah.
So that moment really kind ofstruck me like we all these,
these, these horrible thingshappen all the time and, and we
(47:18):
always kind of return right awayand maybe it is a natural sort
of thing we returned to thisequilibrium or just like, oh, I
feel okay, everything's fine,blah, blah, blah, blah.
When, um, you know, not, itisn't really fine.
Speaker 2 (47:32):
Now I'm going to bring you back to Cleveland and
we'll talk about that, but Iwant to make the segue that you
have, you teach students fromother countries and you were
talking to someone from theHonduras, from[inaudible] thing.
Yeah.
What did they tell you?
Speaker 3 (47:46):
So this was, yeah, this was last year during the
fall semester.
And um, we were just, it wasduring a conference.
I have conferences with mystudents periodically and I
don't know exactly what led usto the, actually talking about,
um, the, I think it was the LasVegas shooting that took place
last year.
Um, but he had mentioned, uh,that just sometimes when he's
(48:10):
here, he feels as if he's a lotless safe in the U S which in my
mind, I'm thinking, wait, butyou're from Honduras and
everything and you know, aboutall of the, you hear all these
stories about just all theviolence that happens, happens
within this.
Like especially the Capitol Citythere.
And he was from the capitalcity.
You need, you just said, yeah,but I know where I'm not
(48:30):
supposed to go.
You know, within the city, youknow, there are places you don't
street, you don't go down andall of that.
And here it's like, you know,these mass shootings, you know,
you have no idea where it'sgoing to happen.
It could be, you know, and youknow, it could be at a concert,
it could be, you know, in a, ina movie theater in or at a
(48:52):
school, you know, a collegecampus and you're like, you
know, we, we can be prepared asyou know, we can be prepared for
but we, we aren't, you know, ina way, you know, it's so it is
that it kind of likedisconcerting feeling when you
have somebody else from, youknow, especially from outside
the u s kind of tell you aboutkind of their thoughts about,
(49:12):
you know, what things are likein the u s especially a newcomer
here
Speaker 2 (49:16):
and especially again, yeah, we have these pre
conceptions of other countries,other cities.
I know my son has lived inChicago for many years and I
would say I'm going to Chicago.
It's like you can't go toChicago.
There's all those shootings, allthat violence.
Yeah.
Yes, that's, yeah, there areparticular places you probably
(49:41):
want to be more careful.
So I think it's healthy for thepeople in the US to understand.
It's not, you know, just becauseyou think that wine doesn't mean
it's true.
You, you, you, you blanket acountry, a city of people and
you make them all terrorists,you make them all island.
Yeah.
And the same thing is truehappening back at us and we know
(50:03):
it's not true here.
That's interesting sting.
Speaker 3 (50:07):
It's, and I think a lot of times it is this kind of
preconceived notion about, um, aparticular ideology or anything
like that.
Um, and the thing I think aboutoften is names, you know, just
think about, um, like I taughtfor example, a couple of
Hussein's in Istanbul.
Um, couple of Brock's actuallyit's interesting you know names,
(50:27):
but yeah, it's interesting causeit's just, those are just common
Middle Eastern names.
Right.
And you know, I just remember, Ithink it was Hussein, I just
remember a couple of thestudents wanted to have lunch,
you know, with the instructors.
Cause sometimes we getco-instructors for a particular
class.
Yeah.
And so we went to a cafe nearby.
(50:48):
And so, you know, there wasabout an hour before I had to
teach my later class.
And so we sat down and Husseinorders a beer and I'm like, oh,
so you know, you have this kindof, okay, this mix of, okay, he
may consider himself a Muslim,but he's not a strict Muslim.
You know, you have theseperceptions of people and maybe
what they believe, but then youknow what, there are other
(51:09):
elements that'll surprise youabout them, so.
Speaker 2 (51:12):
Right.
So stay open to that daily.
Yeah.
You're now at the ClevelandInstitute of art teaching
English to students coming innow who are foreign?
Speaker 3 (51:21):
Well, um, when I got my master's degree, I came back,
um, to the Cleveland area.
Uh, now my wife at the time, um,my girlfriend, um, Barry was
still finishing her phd at CaseWestern.
So, um, that was one of my mainmotivations with that.
Okay.
Um, but, uh, yeah, you makedecisions.
(51:44):
Yeah.
Uh, but, um, but yeah, Iadjuncted at multiple
institutions around theCleveland area.
I taught at Tracy, John CarrollUniversity.
And, um, in 2013 I startedadjuncting at the Cleveland
Institute of art and they weretrying to increase the number of
international students, um, tocome to the institute and they
were starting to become a lotmore successful and admitting
(52:07):
students from abroad and they,they realize that they needed
somebody to really, not justteach one class but also
organizing, um, kind of help outwith orientation, guide them
along throughout their timethere.
And then as well.
Like right now I'm helping goodnumber of them, their final
year, they have to do a defenseof their work.
(52:29):
Um, and so involved in that ofcourse is presenting on their
work and then also writing aboutit.
So there's a lot of that, um,that they, um, need assistance
on.
So I kind of help them out withthat as well.
So, um, that kind of led me as[inaudible] into this full time
position.
And so at 20, yeah, 2015.
Speaker 2 (52:47):
Okay.
Um, I know when we talkedinitially you said sometimes the
knowledge of technology andplatforms is different,
sometimes the ability or the,um, the exposure to certain
topics.
You had mentioned that they werereading, um, I think some, some
books about a transgender personthat, so again, I just want to
(53:08):
explore again this it's cause Ithink that is a transition in
thinking again, if I understand
Speaker 3 (53:14):
did that and in that case, when we were, when you had
this text about LGBT issues andsomeone who was a transgender
woman and kind of hertransition, um, uh, as a
teenager, um, that, thatcontent, that topic, especially
for some of my students who arefrom China, uh, that was
something that many of them didnot have exposure to at all.
(53:35):
And so, um, it wound up being areally successful class that I
had.
And it was a, it was a smallerclass as well.
Um, but it was, but having thatsmaller class really helped
being able to have discussionsand just talking about, okay,
what, what is, what doestransgender mean?
What does the word mean?
What is, you know, and do theyhave a comparable word?
(53:57):
Um, actually I didn't ask that.
So they were able to have that.
We were able to have theseconversations, um, about LGBT
issues.
And though they may not, andsome of the students went to
high school in the u s so itwasn't just straight from China.
Um, so they had a little bitmore exposure to some of these
concepts.
Maybe not, um, the, the conceptof transgender, but, uh, just,
(54:21):
um, just the gay and lesbiancommunity and just, it's
something that they'llexperience, they will definitely
experience.
So it was good for them, forsure.
Hmm.
Speaker 2 (54:34):
To, to me it's important that people think
about different cultures,different people.
We don't all have the samebackground.
Oh, node hall, you don't havethe same beliefs.
Even the family grew up in adifferent family.
I mean, like each of thoseshapes you, and that in itself
is a transition when you startto think about and start to
(54:59):
really deal with people.
If you can allow yourself, Iguess, to transit out.
Yeah.
Um, of the way you alwaysthought the world works.
Yeah.
Following in your footsteps.
I, there's someone thinking ofeither to work abroad in some
manner or again, I'm making aliberal arts career.
So you could pick either ofthose.
Any thoughts, advice, uh, um, Iwould say
Speaker 3 (55:24):
don't be afraid to test things out.
Um, don't, you know, you, youmay have a particular goal in
mind.
You may have, you know, you wantto go to a certain location or
just visit somewhere or changecareers.
Um, don't be afraid to just testthe waters.
Maybe, um, take others' advice.
(55:47):
Um, that I found that, you know,that to be an essential
component because I mean, justthinking about all the people
who told me in high school andCollege, Oh, you should be a
teacher.
At first I was like, no,
Speaker 2 (56:02):
no, not at.
Look.
And now I am full time.
I'm
Speaker 3 (56:07):
a teacher.
So, uh, you know, it's despiteyour own initial preferences,
you know, other people know youas well, not just you.
So you know, just, you know, youmight not choose kind of what
they want you to choose.
But just, it's what I, mystudents, when we do peer review
sessions, when we have otherpeople look at each other's
work, they're going to giverecommendations to you.
(56:29):
That doesn't mean you have toalways do exactly what they say.
You kind of see what they'rerecommending and see if it does
work as you are going over andrevising.
So it's the same thing here whenmaking decisions are kind of
doing something new or you know,taking a one 80 on a career,
maybe, you know, at leastthinking about, you know, those
(56:53):
recommendations.
You know, I, I think that's,that's good.
And again, don't be afraid.
That's, that's the thing.
Don't be afraid to try somethingnew.
Speaker 2 (57:00):
Yeah.
Um, wow.
Great Segway to my sort of lastquestion.
Do you fear future transitions?
Do you think that the fact thatyou've gone through all this
stuff, has that prepared youmore for
Speaker 3 (57:14):
what might happen next?
Yeah, I think so.
Um, I'm not sure.
Obviously you write what thefuture will entail.
I mean, Mary and I just bought anew house, so that's, that's a
fun transition.
Yeah.
And so at first it's like, oh myGod, um, we're buying it helps
your likes.
Speaker 2 (57:31):
So, you know, it's just scary.
Cried in our first house.
Yeah.
Because we had a mortgage, Ithink of$200, two or$300 and he
was like, oh, I'm never going tobe free.
Well it says that the idea of amortgage, the mortgage payments,
it's like, oh my God.
Yeah, yeah, that's, that's a lotof money.
Yeah.
But, uh,
Speaker 3 (57:52):
you know, Mary and I are also considering, you know,
possibly having a baby in thefuture so that the other thing
in our heads is like, oh my God.
Like that's also kind of scary,you know, I mean obviously, I
mean I have nieces and nephewsand so I've interacted with, um,
you know, babies, but havingyour own is very, very different
and there is a lot of stuffthat, you know, um, we'll have
(58:16):
to learn and
Speaker 2 (58:17):
you have to adapt everything else.
So it's the same thing.
So you think you can do it?
I awesome.
Anything else I should haveasked you that?
Oh, a Oh no.
I don't know.
I don't know.
For the second hour.
No, I have no, wait, it didn't,it?
I mean, does that, yeah, sure.
We covered it well.
Sure.
Yeah.
Okay.
Then we're gonna wrap this up.
(58:39):
Uh, thanks so much for sharinghaving this, sir.
Um, this wraps up today's visitwith Kevin prisoner, who's
managed to make some biggeographic and cultural
transitions and somehowintegrate that with his training
and career.
And he is a writer and he is ateacher.
(59:00):
Yeah.
Great.
Yeah.
You know, my, one of my first,uh, desires and now I'm doing it
again.
Yeah.
Okay.
Thanks Kevin.
Thank you.
Taking,
Speaker 5 (59:14):
yes, you've
Speaker 2 (59:14):
been listening to passing through life.
I show that explores how peopleget through major life changes.
If you've enjoyed this
Speaker 1 (59:22):
podcast, please leave a wonderful review in apple
podcast that will help newlisteners know more what to
expect.
And you can email me at[inaudible] through life
podcast@gmail.com.
Feel free to comment about thisshow or suggest people and
topics for future episodes.
I'm Luanne Bull Becker.
(59:43):
Thanks again for joining us.
Speaker 5 (59:58):
[inaudible].
This is passing through life I show that
explores how people navigatemajor life changes.
Just how do we make it throughwhat life throws at us.
I'm your host LuanneBole-Becker.
Today's episode is calledshifting cultures.
It's episode number 11, aninterview with Kevin Risner.
(00:24):
He's a published poet and writerand he's currently the ESL
coordinator.
That's English as a secondlanguage at the Cleveland
Institute of art.
So Hi Kevin.
Thanks for joining us.
Of course.
Speaker 2 (00:36):
Cool.
Um, I like to start each episodeby explaining how my guest and I
know each other.
In your case, I feel like I'veknown you at least in passing
since you were just a youngster,you know, because our family and
your family, we went to the samechurch for literally decades.
Um, so I think I've thought ofyou more as a student because
(00:59):
our paths would cross at churchand in school.
Yeah.
And you're just a little bitolder than my oldest son, so
that kind of makes sense to me.
Yeah.
Uh, so, but then when I startedpaying a little closer attention
to what you were doing over thelast few years, it included the
fact that you are living andworking in Turkey and okay.
For two years.
(01:20):
Yeah.
Um, you're now teaching andcoordinating again English as a
second language and you'rewriting, you're writing poetry
and prose and mostly poetry.
Right.
I know, but still I'm startingto dabble back in said the pros,
Carrie.
Yeah.
Hoping to get going a little bitmore as the months progressed.
(01:40):
Okay.
And is the muse hits you?
So hopefully over the winterbreak.
Yeah.
So it's pretty unique and thoseare powerful experiences.
So what does seem a bitdifferent about our conversation
compared to some of the otherinterviews I've done?
Is your transition seem fluid?
Uh, probably less planned oftenor even expected?
Speaker 3 (02:03):
Yeah, I would say so.
Um, especially when it come,when it came to, um, teaching.
Okay.
And the decision to have that asmy career or decide upon that as
my career.
I never really, I mean I hadthought about it, but in most
cases it was something thatother people had mentioned to me
when I was in high school, whenI was in college and like, Oh,
(02:25):
you wouldn't make a really goodteacher if I told them
[inaudible] I'm going to um,school in English and I'm
majoring in English.
Like, oh, so you're going to bea teacher?
And you're like, no.
And right away I'm like, I don'tknow.
I like, one of the things I'vealways wanted to be growing up
in high school and just even nowis I want to be a writer and
(02:46):
that's the thing you wanted todo.
And so why?
I just, I just love stories.
I, I started reading, you know,ever since I was, no, I haven't,
I want to say five or six yearsold.
My mom told me that when I wasin kindergarten, I would take a
book out and start reading itout loud and I would actually be
reading, I guess to everyoneelse.
(03:07):
And so my kindergarten, she'd belike, oh, this is great.
Like, I don't have to do this.
[inaudible] so basically, yeah,I would read all the time and
I'm like, oh, it'd be so cool tolike put together all these, you
know, put together stories likethis.
So you know, and it, and itnever really went away.
Okay.
Speaker 2 (03:26):
Yeah.
And what I, you know, I namedthis shifting cultures because I
think you're a, of everyone I'mtalking to you so far, you're
the only one who has actuallymoved for a while to another
country.
And I think people may thinkabout that, but then back off.
So it's that.
But I also thought you'veshifted cultures as a student to
(03:48):
becoming a professional and ateacher kind of, you know, like
crossing the border.
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (03:56):
For many years, you know, and up until, you know.
Yeah.
My graduated BW, Baldwin WallaceCollege, and then, um, then I
kind of jumped all the way toteacher right away for two
years.
Then I went back to school toget my master's degree.
So I was like student andteacher again for awhile.
And then now again, full timeteacher who wouldn't, I still
(04:21):
consider myself a student insome way.
Just kind of trying to learn asmuch as possible even though,
you know, I'm not in classes.
Speaker 2 (04:28):
Yes.
Well one would hope.
I mean let's be verymetaphorical philosophical that
we're all students.
I mean that kind of makes lifemore interesting I think if you
look at it that you're alwayslearning.
So yeah.
Yeah.
Okay.
We can edit that out later.
So tell me what was your firstexposure though, to
international travel?
So, so we'll put aside thecareer a little bit and say,
(04:52):
whew.
Okay.
Apart,
Speaker 3 (04:54):
you know, going to Canada when I was a kid, um, the
first time I traveled abroad waswhen I was in high school.
There was a Spanish trip thatthe instructor really wanted to
put together.
And so I thought, oh, this was,this would be kind of fun to do.
Um, and so I was a part of thatand we went to different parts
of Spain for, I want to say aweek, week and a half or so.
(05:17):
And it was just, it was a lot offun.
Um, it was with a larger groupof people, so I knew a lot of
people, so it wasn't like, youknow, really frightening
experience.
It's not as daunting, you know?
And it was just really cool tojust, to be a part of that
culture.
And also, you know, at the timelearning a language, you're
like, oh, let's see if I can tryand use it in some capacity.
So that was a fun experiencetoo.
Speaker 2 (05:39):
Yeah.
Did you think then, I mean, wasthere any inkling then that you
might make either going abroador teaching international
students?
Speaker 3 (05:49):
It was more almost like, oh, this is fun.
I wouldn't mind going backabroad.
So again, you know, cause I knowme and my sister had traveled
abroad, my brother had as, so itwas more just like, oh this is,
this is cool.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So it would be a much later.
Speaker 2 (06:03):
All right, so I, your background is, and what is your
degree in?
Speaker 3 (06:08):
Um, I got a bachelor's degree in English.
Okay.
And that in general.
Okay.
So it was a lot of literatureand also, um, writing courses
and I wanted to make that myconcentration for the most part,
just because again, that's whatI love to do.
That was what I wanted to do.
So know I took journalismcourses on any sort of writing
course that was offered and Icould take it.
(06:29):
Um, that's what I did.
Speaker 2 (06:30):
So did you get part time jobs doing that or anything
with writing?
No,
Speaker 3 (06:36):
they're not really.
Um, after I graduated, after Igraduated, uh, Undergrad, I
actually didn't do much writing.
I just, I did writing for funand I started writing stories
and all of that, but I neverreally did anything related to
publishing.
Um, I was sort of in this weirdkind of moment where, okay, what
(06:56):
do I want to do, quote unquote,you know, as a career in like,
uh, uh, uh, I had toyed with theidea of getting a master's
degree, but then I'm like, Idon't know if I really want to
do that, like an MFA in writing,but, uh, that really didn't
spark my interest at the time.
So I
Speaker 2 (07:13):
was there anybody guiding you at this time?
I talked to
Speaker 3 (07:16):
a bit with, you know, a couple people who were in the
English department at BW.
Um, the writing instructor.
Um, when I started toying aroundwith the idea of getting a
master's degree, it was sort ofalmost past the point of
submission.
He kind of told me to wait untileyes, you know, did a lot more
(07:36):
work with my writing and have agood portfolio or something like
that before I would submit,which actually was a good thing
because um, that helped me delaythings a little bit.
And that summer is when Idecided, you know what?
Um, I had a few friends who kindof mentioned the, the idea of
traveling abroad again, um, orjust working abroad and that,
(08:00):
um, they knew some people whowere teachers.
Um, they taught English.
Um, two people from, you know,uh, I think Korea was one
location and some othercountries and they thought, you
know what, that was somethingyou, you might be interested in
because they knew I like totravel.
I had traveled, I'd studiedabroad as well.
So there was, you know, all ofthose past experiences that kind
(08:21):
of led them to think this wouldbe a really good
Speaker 2 (08:23):
okay.
And was that your first reactionwhen they talked to you, did you
say, Huh?
Oh
Speaker 3 (08:27):
yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
Because at the time I was, the,my main work after I'd graduated
was bartending.
It wasn't really exactly what Iwas going to school for.
So, um, so at the, I was alittle bit more amenable to my
peers, um, advice or at leastnudgings I guess.
(08:49):
So.
And I, and I thought about itand I'm like, oh, this is, this
would be kind of cool.
I mean, it would be, it would befun to, um, live else for a
little bit, um, do something.
And I, and I really enjoyed, um,the language itself.
I loved English.
I took a course, um, this, itwas called, the study of
language at BW is one of theonly linguistics oriented
courses.
So I was really intrigued byjust the intricacies of the
(09:09):
language and the history of thelanguage.
So I think that kind of helped.
That sounds unique to me thatyou would, you would bring an
aspect to teaching that perhapsnot most teachers would bring
this idea of just loving the, itwas just reading so much and
just seeing how words playedwith each other.
(09:30):
It was just a, it's, I wanted toshare my love of that, even if
it were with people whoseknowledge of the language is
very limited.
They only know some words hereand there, but just that
excitement I wanted to share andI think, I think it translated a
little bit with, with the, withthe students when I was in
Turkey and then even afterwards,so.
(09:51):
Okay.
Well, let's get you to Turkeythough, for, so how do you, um,
how do you learn this, thatyou've heard that people are
doing this?
How do you take courses,difficulties?
So I took a, um, it was, uh,basically an emersion sort of,
uh, I guess a certificationprogram.
Um, so over the summer in 2007,um, the, the name of the company
(10:14):
was Oxford seminars and I'mpretty sure they're still
around.
Um, but basically it was maybeabout a month or so, um, over
the weekend, very long courses,Saturday and Sundays where we
had an instructor talking about,you know, the different methods
of teaching.
So there were more educationoriented courses, but then also,
(10:37):
um, courses related to justbasic travel, you know, how, how
does one live abroad, thingslike that.
So it was a pretty well roundedprogram and we also had to put
together a practicum, you know,also teach in front of everyone
as if they were English languagelearners.
So it was a, it was a reallygood experience for me.
(10:59):
And at that time Sh uh, theinstructor, she sort of told us
a little bit about theapplication process of how do
you apply for schools, um,outside of the United States,
what the, what that processmight entail, which could be
complicated depending on whereyou go.
So, um, so there was that.
And so I got my certification, Iwant to say, was it, I think it
(11:20):
was the beginning of August, soAugust of 2007.
And so that's when I startedlooking around and seeing, okay,
where would I like to go?
And my initial, um, thoughtswhere Eastern Europe just
because that's where myancestors are from.
Um, Slovakia specifically.
So I kind of was looking aroundthat area at first.
(11:40):
And the good thing at the timewas that as somebody from the
United States teaching abroad,that was an area that was a
little bit easier to get intojust because they were starting
to become a part of the EuropeanUnion, or at least they were
processing in.
So, um, some of the othercountries that were a part of
the European Union such asGreece or France or some of
(12:00):
those other countries, theypreferred, um, instructors from
the UK or Ireland just becauseof the whole visa process, red
tape and all of that fun stuffas he changed.
I mean, how difficult is it ingeneral, don't know how
difficult it is right now.
Um, but I, and who knows howdifficult it will be in the
future with, you know, thecurrent relationship between the
(12:22):
UK and the EU, how that all willentail.
And the next few years.
But, um, at the time in 2007, itwas very easy for people who,
you know, are, were English orIrish or, um, to actually head
over there and teach in parts ofEurope.
So Slovakia, other parts ofeastern Europe, it was a lot
easier.
(12:43):
So you're aiming for, so I, soyeah.
So I applied for a few programsin Slovakia and the Czech
Republic as well.
I think I looked at a coupleschools in Poland, just that
whole area.
And, uh, the first fewresponses, uh, we're from the
Czech Republic and they werestraight out.
Sorry.
We don't know.
It was, it was nice.
(13:04):
They were nice emails, but itwas not a polite rejection.
Yes, yes.
So, and I was, after a few weekswith very limited success, I was
starting to get a little bitconcerned.
I, I honestly didn't know howlong it was going to take for
someone to say, Oh yeah, let's,let's talk a little bit more.
Let's set up an interview totalk, anything like that.
(13:24):
Um, so I sent a message to theinstructor who, um, was a part
of my, um, certification programand she said, well, why don't
you branch out a little bit,don't just set your sights only
on eastern Europe.
And so, um, she had mentionedTurkey is one location.
And um, at first I'm like, ah, Idon't know.
I really didn't think about thata country as a place I would be,
(13:48):
you know, would be a teacher.
And then as I was doing a littlebit more research, I just
decided to go with it and youknow, apply to a few different
places.
And uh, um, this one, uh,language school English time
decided to respond to me andsay, Hey, let's, yeah, I'm
interested.
We are interested in that.
Set up a time to talk.
So, and then we talked and allthat and they said, hey, when,
(14:12):
when do you want to come and uh,teach, which it's funny
[inaudible] I'm talking to.
Okay.
Yeah.
I mean we had, it was a halfhour interview or so, you know,
about 30, 35 minutes, you know,conversation.
And that was, I want to say andI'd say mid September I think.
And they asked, Oh and do youwant to, you know, come over and
(14:35):
we can start setting up theprocess of getting residents or
residents feast and all thisother stuff.
And so I think yeah, end ofOctober is when I said okay that
should be enough time.
Which, and the time went reallyquick.
Room went really quickly.
Your reaction when you get off
Speaker 2 (14:52):
the phone cause cause this wasn't, again this wasn't
what you were planninginitially.
It was more like okay and youprobably weren't expecting to
get this job.
It was, I think I was more,
Speaker 3 (15:05):
I don't want to say numb, but it was more, it didn't
process fully at the time.
And I told my mom, my dad aboutit and then started telling a
few other people about it and Ithink it started to sink in a
little bit more after that.
And it was more of a, Oh my God,I'm actually going to be moving
in a month or so to anothercountry.
And I don't know anyone there.
And I don't know the languageand all that.
(15:27):
Yeah.
So yeah, it was, yeah, honestly,
Speaker 2 (15:33):
I had to look up Turkey.
I'm admitting it exactly whereit, because you have this, I had
this sense and when I looked itup, I didn't feel that bad, that
sometimes it's considered partof Europe, sometimes it's
considered part of Asia.
We think about it as mid east,you know, went with like the
political stuff.
So tell me, yeah, I mean, so howdoes both it yeah.
Speaker 3 (15:53):
Uh, it's, it's really funny, the boss first that cuts
is stumble and half, that's theborder between Europe and Asia.
So the city is in bold on bothcontinents, which is pretty
cool.
And, uh, I lived on the Asianside when I was in Turkey, so,
Speaker 2 (16:08):
but what was the reaction back then?
Because right now, you know,Turkey's got some instability.
Um, but like how did you know,family, friends react to, is
that seen as a dangerous placeto go or just very exotic or,
Speaker 3 (16:22):
I think both.
Um, also I think they were alsoexcited for me, you know, but I
think there was some slightconcern just because, um, you
know, it's 2007 so the war inIraq was still underway.
And so Turkey was really, itwas, you know, part of it
borders or acts.
So I think there was someconcern there.
And I think, I mean, I had toreiterate because, you know, I
(16:46):
did do a little research centerand Istanbul pretty far on the
western side of the countryversus the eastern borders of
Iran and Iraq.
Speaker 2 (16:56):
So to prepare, do you think you prepared well for
this?
So thinking back
Speaker 3 (17:03):
some ways, yes.
Just in general, just kind ofwhat do I need to bring with me,
you know, um, certain basiccomponents.
Uh, I felt as if one of thebiggest things I felt I could
have done a little bit better islearn a little bit more of the
language.
I took out a book from thelibrary and just learn the
(17:25):
basic, you know, hi, how areyou?
Sort of things.
But I really wasn't, I didn'treally spend a lot of time with
that because in my mind Ithought, okay, is this big city?
Uh, don't, don't know English.
I don't have to worry too much.
Which, you know, that, that typeof mindset, maybe not the best
one to have no matter whereyou're going in the world.
(17:45):
I mean, I just know that in Romefor example, in Italy, that's
the same thing when I was, causeI visited there when I was
studying abroad.
And, um, depending on where yougo, you know, there, there'll be
people who will know thelanguage, but you know, it's not
as, you know, people aren't asknowledgeable as you might think
in on the Asian side of the citywhere I was put up and wound up
(18:06):
living when I got an apartment.
After a few months there, um,there was very limited English,
um, that people knew there.
Um, my first day there.
So for the first day, um, when Igot set up and everything, um,
at the, well they call it thelotion, the apartment complex,
um, where I was staying, youknow, in connection with the
(18:27):
school.
Um, I went out to get food and Ijust went to the nearest one of
the nearest cafe slashrestaurant and I asked him a
question, LG, you speak English?
And he's just like, no, that'sbasically all the English he
knew is that, or just thatquestion.
He knows that okay, if all hehears the term like so.
(18:51):
So yeah, that was my first kindof foray into the, okay, so not
everyone is going to knowthings, so we're going to have
to start adapting reallyquickly, which I wound up doing,
which was, it's good.
I haven't learned at least someof the survival skills right
away of, you know, here are thethings I need to know.
Here are the terms I need toknow.
One of the other things I wish Idid take a class.
I never did take a a Turkishclass there, but after,
(19:12):
especially after two yearsliving there, um, I, I felt I
learned a good amount.
Um, I remember going to theairport from where I was on the
Asian side.
It's a good, pretty decent like,you know, amount of time a drive
there.
I wound up having a, at least avery basic conversation with the
cab driver, which was prettycool.
(19:32):
But yeah, that was one of, thoseare some of the things I kind of
wish I did a little bit more oflike first off learning a little
bit more than I did when I gotthere before I got there.
And then actually maybe taking acourse, becoming a lot more, I
don't want to say fluent, buthaving a much more advanced
level of the language oradvanced knowledge of the
(19:53):
language than I did.
Okay.
I mean you've got a couple ofpounds that sort of deal with
the first impression.
Yeah.
My first, I mean the poetry bookthat or the Chapbook that I have
published, uh, title is my ears,assertive.
It, it chronicles a lot of myexperiences when I was living in
Istanbul.
Um, and then other poems, mostof them near to the end of the
(20:14):
collection talk about a lot ofthe instability and some of the
more political, um, thatpolitical situation that, um,
was and is currently happeningin, in Turkey as a whole.
And sort of my reaction to it aswell as sort of conveying what a
lot of my friends who are stillliving there kind of what their
thoughts and experiences were.
(20:35):
So did you write those while youwere there?
Um, some of them, yes.
Um, so especially these firsttwo.
Yeah.
Yeah, because it captures, Iassume then what you were
feeling and since some of thosetransitions it's like, so, um,
the first one, uh, in thecollection day one is basically
what transpired on that firsttime I was sure.
(20:57):
So here's the, here's the, uh,the poem.
Day One, the plane landedsmoothly.
I walked through customs, theoverhead lighting, less clinical
than in most airports.
It was almost soothing waitingfor an entrance visa.
And then for my lone suitcase,there was my name in black block
(21:18):
letters behind it.
Someone from my future place ofemployment picking me up.
He knew English, but his wordswere mumbles.
At the outset.
I tried to strain my ears tocatch his narrative, but soon a
wall rows between us in that vanas we saw it across the
Bosphorus, the yellow lines onthe highway invisible.
All I saw around me was a sea ofRed Turkish flags flying out of
(21:42):
every window draped acrossalleyways, fluttering from the
flag poles by every Ataturkstatue at every intersection.
The following day was a nationalholiday.
My new apartment set surroundedby identical buildings, offices
and high rises, apartmentblocks, and more Turkish flags.
The Sky was gray that day.
(22:03):
It mirrored the concreteendlessness of Hassan Pasha.
My landlord took the reins.
He said hello to me.
Spoke one of the few words Iknew Marhaba led me pass the
front doors, showed me aroundthe entire place, pointed out
the various rooms and differentobjects named their Turkish
equivalent.
(22:23):
I would not each time he said aword, and I would say another
word.
I already knew Tom.
Okay.
A laid, I laid down that nightstaring at the ceiling of my new
bed, but not really my bed.
I started to read or Han pumpmoocs, snow, a going away gift
from a friend.
It was a book I did not fullyappreciate at the time.
(22:46):
Not until much later when I knewmore about the city and the
country where I would live fortwo years when I found out much
more than ever than I everthought I would about it.
And Its history and itstenuousness snow held a double
meaning like most things here.
And a snow actually in Turkishis cars, which is actually a
(23:09):
city on the, in the eastern partof the country where this book
is set in and so, and the mainnarrator, I'm trying to remember
his exact name, but it's kind ofsimilar to the name of the city
as well as snow and it's, it'sset in the winter.
So there's all these differentmeetings with the, the book,
which is why I thought, oh, thisis such a cool text.
(23:30):
But anyway, I think that lastsentence, do you want to expand
on that a little bit more aboutdevil meanings?
Um, well just the idea of whenwe think about Turkey and when
we think about, you know, aplace that we don't know about,
you know, we're going to see,we're going to have this
perception of the place beforewe get there.
And then when we experience it,when we hear what other people
have to say about who livethere, um, we're going to get a
(23:53):
new perception, very willing tolearn a lot more than we thought
we would ever learn about theplace.
And then as you know, timeprogresses and even after you
leave, you have that connection.
You have that knowledge.
And so when other thingstranspire, when you, people tell
you about, you know, why doeshappening, you kind of have
this, I don't want to sayinsider knowledge, but you know,
(24:15):
there is this connection and yourealize the complexities that
exist, you know, in the world.
So,
Speaker 2 (24:22):
and it sounded like you didn't bring a lot of
luggage.
Did you know it was a bigsuitcase, but it was,
Speaker 3 (24:28):
yeah, just one, a lot of clothes, you know, a couple
of book.
Speaker 2 (24:31):
Okay.
The second one I asked you to dois about the cafe.
Speaker 3 (24:36):
Oh, sorry.
Or that, or is it just to savehis arm?
Um, yeah, this one is justanother experience I had.
I'm just at one of the bizarre,you know, a market place.
I'm on the Asian side.
Um, every Tuesday they would, itwould be set up and all of that.
And just, uh, one of the otherexperiences I had just, um, one
that I really never had here.
(24:56):
I didn't really go to any openmarkets much.
You know, I would see the westside market for example, but
that would, but I wouldn'tactually be immersed in it and
buy things there.
Yeah.
But here it's more, I'm actuallygetting buying stuff for me and
[inaudible] and much larger tothen then west side market.
But when I, I just, when I thinkabout going to the west side
(25:18):
market now I kind of have thatkind of, you know, trying to
compare kind of how things aredone, right?
You have the vendors can ofcalling you over and like, Hey,
you take this, you try this.
It's kind of cool.
But anyway, so the titleTuesday, bizarre.
One quick gymnast leap down theroad, you hail a taxi man, arms
out the window holding acigarette.
He does not care for those newantismoking laws.
(25:41):
He tapped ash over the loosechange.
So you don't pick any of it up.
You want a short trip to thebizarre, you only want to
photograph, take it all in handtightly around your wallet, but
you bring back a block of Phetato royal eggplants, sprigs, a
fennel, black olives.
You are told to taste before youbuy them, just to make sure they
(26:02):
are what you want.
That ancient grandmother winksand reaches into the olive
barrel, takes the large pittedone grins and points.
That's the kind to get here.
And they're a seller chanceKurdish one hums near the
discount.
Onions, every single one in thecrate.
Shriveled, not worth the lira.
You buy half a kilo, a shoeseller by your exit eyes.
(26:24):
You glares that throw linenshrouds over the aisles and the
bustle of shoppers, you turn onetoe out of line, speak one
syllable of English.
Any has your thoughts.
He keeps[inaudible] at thosedamn foreigners.
Click clicking at postcards andforgetting what it means to be
normal.
But everyone forgets.
Speaker 4 (26:44):
Yeah.
Ken[inaudible],
Speaker 3 (26:48):
how long were you there the first time?
The first time.
It was about a year.
Oh yeah.
And the same thing the othertime.
How did you manage it?
How did it go the first year?
Um, well the first year it waspretty good.
Almost like a honeymoon stagefor the most part.
Um, where it was this, these newexperiences, um, a lot of
adapting, you know, obviouslybecause of the language and just
teaching you good at that.
(27:10):
I'm adapting.
Yeah.
I'd like to think I get likedepressed or it helped that I
had the ability to communicate,um, with everybody.
Um, from the u s um, I had, um,email, um, I had, uh, back in,
back in the day a, Oh, was itaim?
(27:33):
The instant messenger chat.
I have that.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So I was able to chat withpeople.
Um, Facebook helped with that aswell.
I was able to share kind ofwhat, how things were going and
what I was doing and all ofthat.
So in that sense, the secondtime around the same thing you
do well, yeah, I take it.
Um, I really loved it.
I loved teaching.
It was, I mean, of course, youknow, the first few months you
(27:53):
have to get used to everythingand you know, learning about
some of the, at least thegrammatical terms that you
thought you knew, but then youdidn't know these technical
words for them.
And so after awhile you can getused to, you know, teaching, um,
English to a variety of levels.
So who are the students?
I mean, who's taking theseclasses?
Just about everybody.
These are, these are theseparticular language schools.
(28:15):
It's for, um, p, uh, a lot ofhigh schoolers who are trying to
get into the university.
So people, um, who, you know,after they're done with I guess
classes, they go to theseclasses.
Yeah.
Um, and do a little bit moreEnglish practice.
Also a lot of professionals, alot of people, um, business
people will take these coursesthrough their work.
(28:36):
Um, especially if they had, um,uh, if they are a business or
there's a lot of international,um, clout for that business.
They, they want their workers toactually, um, no English pretty
well because especially ifthey're doing work, you know,
let's say Turkey too.
I know tricky in Germany, let'ssay I'm having that English
(28:57):
knowledge is really beneficial.
Speaker 4 (28:59):
Okay.
Speaker 3 (29:01):
So we've talked about that the language is different
and maybe not understandingthat, but how was it being, how
is Turkey different thanAmerica?
Um, I mean, the city itself isstable.
It's just a huge metropolis.
So if you think about a lot ofother metropolises across the
world, it's, there's a lot ofdifferent people there.
Um, one of the biggest thingsfor me, um, just because of
(29:23):
growing up, you know, inCleveland area, um, especially
within, you know, the LutheranChurch for example, um, that was
for the most part kind of whatmy experience was and I'm then
going to assemble in a way Iwasn't the minority, right?
Yeah.
Nine yet.
Even liver.
So like 98% of them call, youknow, people call themselves
(29:45):
Muslim.
Even if a large number of themdo not practice it.
Um, just because big city, thereis a large spectrum just like
here, ideologies and everything.
People who are veryconservative, people who are
very liberal, right?
Depending on where you go in astumble, I'm just north of where
I was in, I was living incategory, which is a very, I
(30:07):
would say, Cosmopolitan area.
Um, a lot more liberal minded.
Um, if you go a little bit morenorth, um, in new scarf is it
looks good.
All right.
I think it is one of the otherdistricts north.
Um, it's a little bit moreconservative.
You, you'll see a lot more womenwith head scarves, for example.
Even Burkas, you know, um,that's something that, for me, I
(30:28):
didn't, I really wasn't exposedto much of, and just seeing that
was, it wasn't a shock, but itwas just something I wasn't
attuned to.
So it became a very normal thingfor me to see.
It sounds like obviously there'sa transition, you had
connections to home, but it wasnot uncomfortable.
It wasn't really, no.
Okay.
Um, and it's, when I look backon it, I was really, I'm, I'm
(30:50):
personally surprised.
I did pretty decently justbecause I think it was also
because I had a lot ofinteractions with some of the
other teachers.
So there was that familiarityper se with people who spoke
English.
But then I also had theinteractions with students, also
other teachers who were Turkish.
And so there was a, you know,that kind of mix.
But, um, yeah, as somebody whois very, very much introverted,
(31:14):
um, somebody who normallywouldn't jump into that tort
sort of thing, where you're,you're, you move to a new place,
you don't know anybody there.
It's a, it's in a way, a reallyfrightening thing.
Um, and I want, I, I think I didpretty decently considering
that.
And, um, and I've grown a lot.
I'm still, I consider myself anintrovert, but I've grown a lot
(31:35):
more extroverted and get a lotmore and I just, I get a lot of
energy within the classroom andI like interacting with
students.
But then there is that momentof, oh, okay, right.
I need to rebuild.
I needed to be energy for sure.
See you come home.
Were you thinking after thatfirst year that you had come
back?
I'm not right away.
(31:56):
Okay.
Um, although, um, I know thatthere was this moment where I
thought I would go back, um, ornot go back to Turkey, but I got
an email from a place in solucky that I had applied to
teach and they said, oh, we havethis opening, um, if you want
to, um, come back and teach.
(32:17):
And at the time I started datingMary and I thought, yeah, my
wife now, my now wife marriedand a at the time I'm like, ah,
I'm not going to go, I'm goingto stay here for a bit.
So yeah, it was personal stuff.
Yeah, sure.
It's good.
Um, so what makes the decisionthat you would go back then?
Because that doesn't seem tofigure it out if you're dating
(32:38):
someone might not work all thatI needed to, I needed to know
for sure if this is the thing Iwanted to do with teaching was
the thing I want to do.
If I wanted to teachinternational students and I
just wanted to a, I wanted justto experience Turkey as well.
Again, one more time[inaudible]you know, that connection.
(32:58):
But then also I really, I wantedto know if this was the thing
and I wanted to know for sure iswhat teaching is the one thing I
wanted to do.
And while I was in Turkey thatsecond time I applied to
graduate school, at that time, Iknew that if I wanted to teach
back in the United States,that's something that I needed.
(33:19):
So more practical elementsthere.
Um, and so yeah.
So after I was in Turkey, thenreturned back.
Were you writing?
So let's go back to your dreamwas to write, because you've
reminded me that yes, your pathwas initially you want to write,
you take teaching so that you'redoing something with the
language, et Cetera.
(33:40):
Um, does it feed at that pointyou're writing?
Do you feel you're more ateacher writer?
Um, I'd like to say I'm both,especially now.
Um, when I was living inIstanbul, I was doing some
writing here and there I woundup getting an actual hard bound
(34:00):
journal, which I hadn't had.
I would, you know, chroniclethings through an online journal
basically.
But I didn't have that, um, hardbound journal.
Um, and doing that really helpedkind of, I don't want to say
open my mind, but at leastallowed for all these thoughts
spinning around to actually beon paper.
(34:21):
And so I would chronicle thingsthat were happening, thoughts I
had and that led to, um, alittle bit more of that, the
more lyrical kind of types ofwriting.
You know, when you think ofpoetry and I'm trying to tell
the story through poetry asopposed to just, you know,
telling a story just in the,this is what happened, this
(34:42):
blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
And so, yeah.
And so that's when, uh, aboutmid 2008, that's when I started
to really put together somepoems about my experiences and
that's, um, and it was, it'sinteresting, I kind of shared
some of those poems with peopleand actually one of the people I
shared the poems with was Maryand she was one of the people
(35:02):
who was like, this is reallygood.
This is some of the best thingis, is some of the best stuff
I've ever read of yours.
So it kind of really said, oh,maybe I may say continued doing
what I'm doing with this.
And so, you know, I've beenjournaling, you know, like I
have my journal from right outthere right now too.
I've been doing that, I've beendoing that for the past 10
(35:23):
years.
And uh, um, yeah.
And I'm still writing poems andall that fun stuff.
So the, the other two pounds, ohyeah, she did consider, would
those fall within what you'retalking about now that those
there lyrical
Speaker 2 (35:38):
and, or, or still more narrative in a way?
I think this is the thing, likea lot of my work at camp
Speaker 3 (35:45):
really separate itself from an actual narrative.
Um, some of them are a littlebit more, yeah.
Um, I would say not perceptual,but they're there.
They don't have this set startand end.
Um, but, uh, I think in somecases there is some of my work
that has that component withinthem.
So it's a bit unique.
I Dunno.
Um, the ones that you hadmentioned that I'm, they could
(36:08):
read, um, for, for today, theydo have a very strong narrative
element to it because they arestemming from my experiences
there.
Speaker 2 (36:16):
Okay.
I don't know if you, if youwould, if you would.
Um, I picked a cafe becauseagain, this idea of being
immersed in another culture thatI think a lot of people have
some fear about.
Yeah.
Um, and so I, I got, I thoughtboth of those captured.
Yeah.
(36:36):
With cafe.
It's
Speaker 3 (36:37):
interesting because it's also talking about the
fears of the unknown or justpreconceived notions people
have, um, within the country.
So it's not even as somebody whocomes there as someone who's
never been to Turkey and Mikehave, you know, just assumptions
about the culture, about thepeople.
Um, this is actually focusing alot more on assumptions.
(36:58):
People within the country havethat.
I just, I realized right away,um, when it comes to just, if we
think about here, maybeassumptions people have about
people who are different thanthem from different backgrounds,
people from who come over here,kind of like how I was kind of
an immigrant, right?
Same sort of thing here where,you know, they don't know the
people, but you have theseassumptions about them.
(37:20):
So, uh, but this one is actuallyabout, uh, someone, it's more of
an acquaintance than anythingelse.
But, uh, basically this personwho, this is actually the second
time I returned.
Okay.
The second time I was inIstanbul and I was wondering,
Oh, where's so, and so?
And, uh, I found this out from afriend of mine.
(37:41):
Like, oh, this person isn't hereanymore.
There they went out, they wentback to their family farm and
they're there and they're happyand et Cetera, et cetera.
So this is a cafe I, me and myfriends would go to often.
So, um, the titles cafe, yousmile at each person entering
your cafe dice in your hands tostart back Emon beneath willowy
(38:01):
lights that hide unwantedprofiles and mask all actions
through the binoculars ofothers.
You practice your Englishphrases.
Fake tingy faintly with Turkishsuperficial twists, catching on
the smoke and the Chit chatafter hours.
A large party of us passingaround the Naga lay pipe to
catch the sweet mixture of roseand mint.
(38:23):
Google Nani, the haziest ofwords, all three syllables,
stretching for seconds.
You never mentioned yourancestry to me, but I had heard
about it from a friend offhandedly after left to farm in a
district part of the country.
The silence on the topic ofancestry comes from wariness,
unknown responses.
When other people hear the kword Kurdish, what instantly
(38:47):
pops up in their brains are evilterrorist, barbarian, baby
killer without a second'sthought.
The dissonance stains the wallson names, on certain names, over
letters that don't even exist inthe dominant language.
And still people will keepwalking upstairs into the cafe,
(39:07):
purchase t and Pucker lips onthe mouthpiece of the Mar
[inaudible] pipe, obscure theirvisions of others behind the
curtain, not pulled back untillater in life when some may be
more comfortable with oneanother, but not enough to
whisper the secrets that couldnow get one killed all our
targets.
(39:29):
Yeah.
So yeah, the, the person isKurdish and doesn't wish to
share that because I mean forme, someone who is a foreigner,
you know, there may not be thatperception, but something that
will likely not be a good ideato tell anybody coming into the
(39:50):
um, the cafe because you neverknow who that person, what their
perceptions might be aboutKurdish people.
Speaker 2 (39:57):
And again, I'm trying to make the parallel.
While we may have issues, we dohave issues with different
groups.
I don't know if we have thatunderlying that that feels so,
um, scary is all I can say.
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (40:14):
The, the, the constant sort of, I would say
him not mantra, but the constantinformation that gets shared is
this idea that all Kurdishpeople are the terrorists,
terrorists from south, thesoutheast that are coming there.
They're there.
I don't have the intelligence ofthe Turkish people in there.
They're just there to bombcertain, uh, um, soldiers and
(40:39):
just they're there to take overthe country basically.
And that's not really the case.
At least
Speaker 2 (40:44):
the majority of people.
You got to feel what it was likewith that being in the hearings
you and then hearing yeah.
Speaker 3 (40:51):
People saying, Oh yeah, the Kurdish people that,
yeah, they're, they're stupid.
They're, they're barbarians.
They don't know.
I know that they're supposed tobe doing, you know,
Speaker 2 (41:00):
this again reminds me, I truly believe everyone
should travel.
Um, you know, and not just forfun, um, it to be exposed.
You get so much of a newperspective on, sure.
Not only your own life, your owncountry.
When you see, oh my gosh, how isthat possible?
You know, why would somebodythink that?
(41:23):
Um, I know I asked for thesecond one and now I've even
forgotten what that can go.
Right?
Yeah.
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (41:28):
So this one is about, um, this is a district on the
European side of Istanbul a bitfurther away from a lot of the
touristy areas on the Europeanside.
Um, I actually had never heardof the district after, um, I
think it was maybe just under ayear.
(41:48):
Um, I had been in Istanbul andso this is basically just a one
very late evening basically goon is a place where a bomb
exploded in a, um, let's say aTrashman I think it was, and I'm
trying to remember the number ofpeople who die, but it was a,
you know, it was a very serioussort of thing and we had no idea
(42:11):
about it.
And it was actually somebodyfrom abroad who had texted a
friend at the party saying, areyou okay?
And we're all like, when theyhad the bombing happened, it was
that same day.
Okay.
That's pretty close.
Instant.
It's not just a site, they, itwasn't like two days later or
something.
It was that same day.
And apparently it just, it madethe news read hall who way in
(42:33):
the UK.
So it was this weird sort of,yeah, we're fine with what's
going on here.
And then we found out we wereall kind of like, oh my God,
like this happened.
So, um, so yeah, we have thebest view here.
Tiled rooftops coated withmicrobes that had to have been
eternal dust that would code ourlungs in the stagnant summer.
(42:54):
Me, asthma with the stacks ofapartment blocks, rickety and
pliable like our thoughtprocesses are sense of reason
leaning on ledges.
Half drunken and melodies are10:00 PM Sunday evening assembly
reinvents weekend workers whoare disaffected by Istanbul's
Ans untranslatable melancholy.
The word for that is who's in itdoesn't exist in the summer or
(43:19):
to hidden heavy and speckledwith clouds and somewhere.
Stars all masked and feverish.
Our roof pokes the sky.
Beer can stack and pyramids andmy bare feet latches onto the
grime from a v from a year of nomops.
One friend receives a messagefrom far away asking if he's
okay.
(43:40):
Of course we're all okayanswers, but of course everyone
isn't.
Not on the European side.
One Trash Bin, Smithereens allaround that spot at gaping
manhole, charred remnants ofstone, loose pavement,
dumpsters, sides of apartmentblocks, limbs, skin puzzle
pieces, reddish, Masih paint.
(44:02):
Tomorrow the bombing, we'll haveplastered TV screens and
hardware stores, endless filmfull of whaling.
Women, the mothers bodies notclearly defined because of the
shaky camera.
Renders are unblemished.
Selves mortified, ashamed thatwe simply keep walking around
and whistling beneath toastysummertime sun.
There is a brief touch of fear,but it disappears instantly in
(44:25):
the calm of twilight minutesafter the first message.
Those people we know and lovewho are far away far from our
grasp.
They are the ones who fear themost and they always will.
The scene replicates here andthere in other places, not just
here, even back where they thinkthey are safe.
(44:46):
We think we are safe on rooftopsevery single night.
Stars of of stars clean, clear,shimmering emblazoned with some
kind of brilliance that theclouds slinking over us.
Try to obscure.
So are you different because ofexperiencing that or that sort
(45:07):
of thing?
This, this particular, thebombing or just starving can
broaden it?
Um, it brought me down to Eartha little bit because I remember
there was a really horriblebombing that happened in
Istanbul in 2003.
Um, and it was a, it was theBritish embassy.
And so that, that one, thatparticular bomb killed hundreds
(45:30):
of people and it was a reallyhuge moment just because of its,
you know, how horrendous it was.
Um, and I actually totallyforgot about it when I started
applying.
And it's something, you know,when you think of all the
horrible things that arehappening all over the place,
just because, you know, we'repulled in so many directions, we
(45:52):
hear so many horrible things.
Um, we forget about themquickly.
And I think I realized thatagain when that happened and
like, oh my gosh, you know, youknow, anywhere, you know,
something like this couldhappen.
And I think about that now too,in the u s like when you get
(46:12):
news about another shooting thathappens at mass shooting that
happens and you, you, you kindof stop and you think, oh my
God, this could happen any placeand you know, we're not going to
be ready for say for it.
And I think that that momentwhere we, I found out about
like, oh my gosh, I mean itworks.
It's far, you know, it's symbolshuge.
It's sprawling and we're on thecomplete opposite side of the
(46:34):
city.
But still learning of that sortof thing happening, it kind of
stops us for about, it stoppedus for awhile and we're like,
wow, you know, that's horrible.
You know, like the next dayshe's like, you see the stuff on
the TV, you see all these, youknow, reports about it.
And in my head I'm like, I feelperfectly safe though right
here.
And, but then, you know, you getthe messages, oh, are you okay?
(46:56):
And the same thing happens likelet's say earthquake hit in
another part of Turkey.
All you hear is earthquake inTurkey.
Everybody freaks out like, oh myGod, are you okay?
Oh, your check.
And I'm like, are paying.
Yeah.
So that moment really kind ofstruck me like we all these,
these, these horrible thingshappen all the time and, and we
(47:18):
always kind of return right awayand maybe it is a natural sort
of thing we returned to thisequilibrium or just like, oh, I
feel okay, everything's fine,blah, blah, blah, blah.
When, um, you know, not, itisn't really fine.
Speaker 2 (47:32):
Now I'm going to bring you back to Cleveland and
we'll talk about that, but Iwant to make the segue that you
have, you teach students fromother countries and you were
talking to someone from theHonduras, from[inaudible] thing.
Yeah.
What did they tell you?
Speaker 3 (47:46):
So this was, yeah, this was last year during the
fall semester.
And um, we were just, it wasduring a conference.
I have conferences with mystudents periodically and I
don't know exactly what led usto the, actually talking about,
um, the, I think it was the LasVegas shooting that took place
last year.
Um, but he had mentioned, uh,that just sometimes when he's
(48:10):
here, he feels as if he's a lotless safe in the U S which in my
mind, I'm thinking, wait, butyou're from Honduras and
everything and you know, aboutall of the, you hear all these
stories about just all theviolence that happens, happens
within this.
Like especially the Capitol Citythere.
And he was from the capitalcity.
You need, you just said, yeah,but I know where I'm not
(48:30):
supposed to go.
You know, within the city, youknow, there are places you don't
street, you don't go down andall of that.
And here it's like, you know,these mass shootings, you know,
you have no idea where it'sgoing to happen.
It could be, you know, and youknow, it could be at a concert,
it could be, you know, in a, ina movie theater in or at a
(48:52):
school, you know, a collegecampus and you're like, you
know, we, we can be prepared asyou know, we can be prepared for
but we, we aren't, you know, ina way, you know, it's so it is
that it kind of likedisconcerting feeling when you
have somebody else from, youknow, especially from outside
the u s kind of tell you aboutkind of their thoughts about,
(49:12):
you know, what things are likein the u s especially a newcomer
here
Speaker 2 (49:16):
and especially again, yeah, we have these pre
conceptions of other countries,other cities.
I know my son has lived inChicago for many years and I
would say I'm going to Chicago.
It's like you can't go toChicago.
There's all those shootings, allthat violence.
Yeah.
Yes, that's, yeah, there areparticular places you probably
(49:41):
want to be more careful.
So I think it's healthy for thepeople in the US to understand.
It's not, you know, just becauseyou think that wine doesn't mean
it's true.
You, you, you, you blanket acountry, a city of people and
you make them all terrorists,you make them all island.
Yeah.
And the same thing is truehappening back at us and we know
(50:03):
it's not true here.
That's interesting sting.
Speaker 3 (50:07):
It's, and I think a lot of times it is this kind of
preconceived notion about, um, aparticular ideology or anything
like that.
Um, and the thing I think aboutoften is names, you know, just
think about, um, like I taughtfor example, a couple of
Hussein's in Istanbul.
Um, couple of Brock's actuallyit's interesting you know names,
(50:27):
but yeah, it's interesting causeit's just, those are just common
Middle Eastern names.
Right.
And you know, I just remember, Ithink it was Hussein, I just
remember a couple of thestudents wanted to have lunch,
you know, with the instructors.
Cause sometimes we getco-instructors for a particular
class.
Yeah.
And so we went to a cafe nearby.
(50:48):
And so, you know, there wasabout an hour before I had to
teach my later class.
And so we sat down and Husseinorders a beer and I'm like, oh,
so you know, you have this kindof, okay, this mix of, okay, he
may consider himself a Muslim,but he's not a strict Muslim.
You know, you have theseperceptions of people and maybe
what they believe, but then youknow what, there are other
(51:09):
elements that'll surprise youabout them, so.
Speaker 2 (51:12):
Right.
So stay open to that daily.
Yeah.
You're now at the ClevelandInstitute of art teaching
English to students coming innow who are foreign?
Speaker 3 (51:21):
Well, um, when I got my master's degree, I came back,
um, to the Cleveland area.
Uh, now my wife at the time, um,my girlfriend, um, Barry was
still finishing her phd at CaseWestern.
So, um, that was one of my mainmotivations with that.
Okay.
Um, but, uh, yeah, you makedecisions.
(51:44):
Yeah.
Uh, but, um, but yeah, Iadjuncted at multiple
institutions around theCleveland area.
I taught at Tracy, John CarrollUniversity.
And, um, in 2013 I startedadjuncting at the Cleveland
Institute of art and they weretrying to increase the number of
international students, um, tocome to the institute and they
were starting to become a lotmore successful and admitting
(52:07):
students from abroad and they,they realize that they needed
somebody to really, not justteach one class but also
organizing, um, kind of help outwith orientation, guide them
along throughout their timethere.
And then as well.
Like right now I'm helping goodnumber of them, their final
year, they have to do a defenseof their work.
(52:29):
Um, and so involved in that ofcourse is presenting on their
work and then also writing aboutit.
So there's a lot of that, um,that they, um, need assistance
on.
So I kind of help them out withthat as well.
So, um, that kind of led me as[inaudible] into this full time
position.
And so at 20, yeah, 2015.
Speaker 2 (52:47):
Okay.
Um, I know when we talkedinitially you said sometimes the
knowledge of technology andplatforms is different,
sometimes the ability or the,um, the exposure to certain
topics.
You had mentioned that they werereading, um, I think some, some
books about a transgender personthat, so again, I just want to
(53:08):
explore again this it's cause Ithink that is a transition in
thinking again, if I understand
Speaker 3 (53:14):
did that and in that case, when we were, when you had
this text about LGBT issues andsomeone who was a transgender
woman and kind of hertransition, um, uh, as a
teenager, um, that, thatcontent, that topic, especially
for some of my students who arefrom China, uh, that was
something that many of them didnot have exposure to at all.
(53:35):
And so, um, it wound up being areally successful class that I
had.
And it was a, it was a smallerclass as well.
Um, but it was, but having thatsmaller class really helped
being able to have discussionsand just talking about, okay,
what, what is, what doestransgender mean?
What does the word mean?
What is, you know, and do theyhave a comparable word?
(53:57):
Um, actually I didn't ask that.
So they were able to have that.
We were able to have theseconversations, um, about LGBT
issues.
And though they may not, andsome of the students went to
high school in the u s so itwasn't just straight from China.
Um, so they had a little bitmore exposure to some of these
concepts.
Maybe not, um, the, the conceptof transgender, but, uh, just,
(54:21):
um, just the gay and lesbiancommunity and just, it's
something that they'llexperience, they will definitely
experience.
So it was good for them, forsure.
Hmm.
Speaker 2 (54:34):
To, to me it's important that people think
about different cultures,different people.
We don't all have the samebackground.
Oh, node hall, you don't havethe same beliefs.
Even the family grew up in adifferent family.
I mean, like each of thoseshapes you, and that in itself
is a transition when you startto think about and start to
(54:59):
really deal with people.
If you can allow yourself, Iguess, to transit out.
Yeah.
Um, of the way you alwaysthought the world works.
Yeah.
Following in your footsteps.
I, there's someone thinking ofeither to work abroad in some
manner or again, I'm making aliberal arts career.
So you could pick either ofthose.
Any thoughts, advice, uh, um, Iwould say
Speaker 3 (55:24):
don't be afraid to test things out.
Um, don't, you know, you, youmay have a particular goal in
mind.
You may have, you know, you wantto go to a certain location or
just visit somewhere or changecareers.
Um, don't be afraid to just testthe waters.
Maybe, um, take others' advice.
(55:47):
Um, that I found that, you know,that to be an essential
component because I mean, justthinking about all the people
who told me in high school andCollege, Oh, you should be a
teacher.
At first I was like, no,
Speaker 2 (56:02):
no, not at.
Look.
And now I am full time.
I'm
Speaker 3 (56:07):
a teacher.
So, uh, you know, it's despiteyour own initial preferences,
you know, other people know youas well, not just you.
So you know, just, you know, youmight not choose kind of what
they want you to choose.
But just, it's what I, mystudents, when we do peer review
sessions, when we have otherpeople look at each other's
work, they're going to giverecommendations to you.
(56:29):
That doesn't mean you have toalways do exactly what they say.
You kind of see what they'rerecommending and see if it does
work as you are going over andrevising.
So it's the same thing here whenmaking decisions are kind of
doing something new or you know,taking a one 80 on a career,
maybe, you know, at leastthinking about, you know, those
(56:53):
recommendations.
You know, I, I think that's,that's good.
And again, don't be afraid.
That's, that's the thing.
Don't be afraid to try somethingnew.
Speaker 2 (57:00):
Yeah.
Um, wow.
Great Segway to my sort of lastquestion.
Do you fear future transitions?
Do you think that the fact thatyou've gone through all this
stuff, has that prepared youmore for
Speaker 3 (57:14):
what might happen next?
Yeah, I think so.
Um, I'm not sure.
Obviously you write what thefuture will entail.
I mean, Mary and I just bought anew house, so that's, that's a
fun transition.
Yeah.
And so at first it's like, oh myGod, um, we're buying it helps
your likes.
Speaker 2 (57:31):
So, you know, it's just scary.
Cried in our first house.
Yeah.
Because we had a mortgage, Ithink of$200, two or$300 and he
was like, oh, I'm never going tobe free.
Well it says that the idea of amortgage, the mortgage payments,
it's like, oh my God.
Yeah, yeah, that's, that's a lotof money.
Yeah.
But, uh,
Speaker 3 (57:52):
you know, Mary and I are also considering, you know,
possibly having a baby in thefuture so that the other thing
in our heads is like, oh my God.
Like that's also kind of scary,you know, I mean obviously, I
mean I have nieces and nephewsand so I've interacted with, um,
you know, babies, but havingyour own is very, very different
and there is a lot of stuffthat, you know, um, we'll have
(58:16):
to learn and
Speaker 2 (58:17):
you have to adapt everything else.
So it's the same thing.
So you think you can do it?
I awesome.
Anything else I should haveasked you that?
Oh, a Oh no.
I don't know.
I don't know.
For the second hour.
No, I have no, wait, it didn't,it?
I mean, does that, yeah, sure.
We covered it well.
Sure.
Yeah.
Okay.
Then we're gonna wrap this up.
(58:39):
Uh, thanks so much for sharinghaving this, sir.
Um, this wraps up today's visitwith Kevin prisoner, who's
managed to make some biggeographic and cultural
transitions and somehowintegrate that with his training
and career.
And he is a writer and he is ateacher.
(59:00):
Yeah.
Great.
Yeah.
You know, my, one of my first,uh, desires and now I'm doing it
again.
Yeah.
Okay.
Thanks Kevin.
Thank you.
Taking,
Speaker 5 (59:14):
yes, you've
Speaker 2 (59:14):
been listening to passing through life.
I show that explores how peopleget through major life changes.
If you've enjoyed this
Speaker 1 (59:22):
podcast, please leave a wonderful review in apple
podcast that will help newlisteners know more what to
expect.
And you can email me at[inaudible] through life
podcast@gmail.com.
Feel free to comment about thisshow or suggest people and
topics for future episodes.
I'm Luanne Bull Becker.
(59:43):
Thanks again for joining us.
Speaker 5 (59:58):
[inaudible].
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