March 20, 2024 • 46 mins
Join Mike Dussault, Evan Lazar, Paul Perillo, Matisse Baumann and Chris Cassidy they highlight offensive line prospects that could potentially land in New England in the 2024 NFL Draft. Patriots.com writers breakdown Joe Alt, Olu Fashanu, Kingsley Suamataia and more prospects college careers plus Evan Lazar goes 1-on-1 with Bleacher Report's Brandon Thorn for an in-depth analysis of the Patriots offensive line.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
This is Patriots Draft Countdown presented by bud Light.
Speaker 2 (00:05):
Welcome to an NFL draft.
Speaker 1 (00:07):
Hosted by the writers of Patriots dot Com. From now
until you here the New England Patriots Slight, the Countdown
is on. Welcome to the Patriots Draft Countdown presented by
bud Light.
Speaker 2 (00:20):
What's up, everybody?
Speaker 3 (00:21):
Welcome to Patriots Draft Countdown presented by bud Light, Easy
to Drink, Easy to enjoy, bud Light, the official beer
sponsor of the New England Patriots. And today we're gonna
touching on a number of topics all related to the draft.
We've got a great offensive line preview. Evan had a
chance to sit down and talk with Brandon Thorne really
drilled down on some of those offensive line prospects. But
first here in this first segment, we're just gonna kind
(00:42):
of catch everybody up on some of the latest news
that's happened over the last week since the last episode
relating directly to the Patriots and how it impacts their draft.
Speaker 2 (00:50):
So, guys want to start at the top. Justin Fields.
Speaker 3 (00:53):
He is now a Pittsburgh Steeler, So we know we
spent a lot of time talking over the last few
months about Justin Field's potential to come here. Now he's
kind of off the table. To start with you, Paul,
you know, what was kind of your reaction to that,
and how do you think that does that impact the
Patriots at all?
Speaker 4 (01:07):
Yeah, I mean I would say personally, just you know,
very selfishly, I'm glad that he got moved to somebody
so we could sort of stop with Like to me,
when they signed Jakobe Brissett, that kind of eliminated the
Justin Fields portion of the Patriots connection to that possibility,
but the questions were persisting, So I'm glad it kind
(01:28):
of got resolved. I'm not overly surprised. I think if
you saw it, like you know, Chicago had made it
clear that they were looking to deal him. They wanted
to do right by him and move him as quickly
as they could, and it took a while. So that
told me that there wasn't a tremendous amount of interest.
Now they also people around the league. If you're interested
in Justin Fields, you knew Chicago was going to have
to release him at some point if they weren't able
(01:49):
to make a deal, So that lowers the value you know,
a conditional pick if he plays for Pittsburgh, it's a
fourth round pick. If he doesn't, it's a sixth round pick.
So I think it's probably the best for Chicago and
fields Pittsburgh specifically. I know we're not necessarily caring about Pittsburgh.
I think it makes a little sense because I'm not
sold on Russell Wilson, and I know they've said that
(02:11):
it's Russell Wilson's job, but we'll see.
Speaker 5 (02:14):
Yeah, it makes a lot of sense for Pittsburgh because
they have the twentieth pick in the draft, so they're
not gonna have an opportunity to take a Jayden Daniels
or Drake may or one of these guys. So their
upside play is justin Fields, which I think makes sense
for a team like that. But clearly teams like the Commanders,
teams like the Patriots, teams like the Minnesota Vikings, they
didn't have much interest in Justin fields because they were
(02:35):
more worried about the guys in the draft and Tyler
talking about contract and value and things like that. Justin
Field's coming up in his fourth year. He's gonna have
to get paid at some point, even if he is
starting caliber or versus starting all over first year of
a rookie contract. Now you have team control for the
next five years. It's a much different scenario. So I
get it for a team like Pittsburgh. I never really
(02:56):
got it for a team like the Patriots that had
that pick to be able to take quarterback in the
draft and basically do what people would want you to
do with Justin Fields, which is develop him and hope
that you can tap into the upside. So it makes
sense that he's not coming here makes sense for Pittsburgh.
I think the Justin Fields too, and Justin Fields and
Marvin Harrison junior pairing that everybody called in and emailed in.
(03:18):
Sorry rip to that take.
Speaker 6 (03:20):
That was me tp right up, Like part of me
is a little upset. I've always been a Justin Fields guy.
I'm surprised how cheap he ended up going to Pittsburgh for.
But as Paul said, I'm kind of happy this is
done with. It's fun to, like, you know, picture what
could have happened. But it's done. He's in Pittsburgh. I'll
be upset about it, but I'll get over it.
Speaker 3 (03:39):
So it's just some clarity, though, is where we get
into this last month.
Speaker 2 (03:43):
It's like, you know, I mean, my favorite.
Speaker 3 (03:44):
Part of the draft usually is the day after the draft,
when you're like, here's the ten guys that you have
and you can just kind of focus on those instead
of doing all this speculation. So that speculation is now out.
So I'm glad about that. But the Patriots did make
a move this weekend, signing kJ Osborne, receiver, kind of
the third receiver there in Minnesota. We know they missed
out on Calvin Ridley really, you know, coming in with
(04:04):
a big offer kind of showing. I think that this
you know, regime understands that you got to take a
big swing on those kind of players. But they're settling
for kJ Osborne, who kind of himself settles into a
group Paul that it kind of looks similar to me.
You know, it's it's kJ Osbourne, It's it's Kendrick Bourne.
It's a lot of those kind of not a big
outside X guy, a lot of these guys that you
can kind of move around in the slot. We'll see
(04:24):
how it all plays out, but I think they've got
nine receivers on the roster.
Speaker 4 (04:27):
Throw Demario Douglass in there too, and I agree, and listen,
he's been you know, I would say, a professional receiver.
I think he's He's been reasonably productive in Minnesota, So
I don't I don't think this is a move like
you just like scoff at. But you do wonder, you know,
where those outside guys, the guys that Evan's been talking
about for the last couple of weeks, those X receivers,
where are they're gonna come from. Mike Williams is still,
(04:49):
you know available, kind of a strange story about him
with the Jets, you know, coming out over the last
couple of days. But I like Osborne, I think it's
a good addition. I think create more competition. You know,
it's some insurance if Kenrick Bourne doesn't you know, bounce back,
you know from the town. Acl is as quickly and
as well as everybody hopes, so you know, bring them in,
(05:11):
create some competition. You need a lot of receivers in camp.
Those guys run a lot in camp.
Speaker 3 (05:15):
I'm wann to t up Evan just because what do
you think this does to affect their draft needs? Because
you've talked a lot about it. Paul just mentioned you
talking about it, the need for an outside X. They
got rid of DeVante Parker, who pretty much played that
role last year. I look at this roster, I don't
see anybody on it. So would you say going into
the draft that we don't really need to spend time
thinking about these Z kind of receivers. Let's focus on
(05:35):
guys that could potentially be an.
Speaker 5 (05:36):
X Yeah, I would say yes, But at the same time,
I would hate to pigeonhole yourself just to one type
of receiver, because that's what it looks like on paper.
You're missing. The Patriots need talent at that position. So
if they grade out Ladd McConkie as a much better
player than Keon coleman, and they should draft Lad McConkie,
they shouldn't draft Keon coleman. You figure it out down
the road. But you look at some of these receivers
(05:58):
in that X mold, some guys they're probably going to
go in the first round. Obviously we know about Marvin
Harrison Junior, Romadoonze, those guys off the top of the draft.
Then you go to the Brian Thomas Junior, is the
Aighty Mitchell tier, that sort of next wave. Keon Coleman
to me is somewhere in the middle between the next wave.
On Day two in the first round guys, and then
you'd see some of those probably around three picks, like
(06:19):
a tes Walker, like a Brendan Rice. So I know
a lot of people like because of the lineage and
everything like that. So I think all those guys are
interesting for different reasons. I'm not the biggest fan of
Coleman gives me too many Nikhil Harry vibes with you know,
no separation, contested catch type of guy. I really do
like Brendan Rice a lot, not just because his father's
Jerry Rice, but just watching him on film. Explosive guy,
(06:43):
can run routes as an ex bigger guy, can win
contested catches, but also seems to be able to get
separation on slants and breakers, things like that. So there's
some guys there. And then obviously just quickly tes Walker
pairing him with Drake may Is college quarterback. Maybe they
go that direction for you, So I love it.
Speaker 6 (07:00):
I would love it. I need something that moves the needle.
kJ Osborne, it's just tough. We missed out on Ridley
Keenan a left and it's like here's kJ Osbourne, Like,
I don't know, we need something.
Speaker 4 (07:09):
So I just met the whole college quarterback receiver.
Speaker 2 (07:12):
I would love that.
Speaker 6 (07:13):
I would love that.
Speaker 5 (07:16):
He scares me a little bit, I'm not gonna lie.
I think part of it is because of the offense
that he played in at North Carolina. It's an air
raid system, so a lot of his reps are just
him running by people in a straight line. And those
types of guys always give me concern because they don't
have a lot of branches on the route tree. Yet
you know, is he going to be able to run
three different levels of routes? Senior Bowl was not a
good week for him either. So as much as I
(07:38):
love the idea of taking the college quarterback and pairing
him with his number one receiver, there are some concerns
with tes Walker on film that you are a little
bit hesitant. Maybe third or fourth round would be good value,
but I'm probably not taking him inside the top fifty.
Speaker 6 (07:53):
If you take someone in the third or the fourth.
As du said, we have nine receivers on a roster,
that's pretty open competition for me. So if you're a
rookie coming in like this is your chance to do it?
Speaker 3 (08:02):
So yeah, Well, I mean one more question though, is
usually you know you talk about the X receiver. These
are the big dogs, right, These are the guys that
you know don't need help. They can get off the line,
they can get off press. Is it too much to
kind of hope to develop a guy like that? Not
quite as crazy as like a quarterback, Like usually if
you're in a quarterback Day two, day three, it's it's
a developmental guy. You're probably not having high hopes that
this guy is going to be a star.
Speaker 2 (08:22):
But is it unreasonable to.
Speaker 3 (08:23):
Kind of hope that you could take a guy like
that in the middle of the draft and that he
will develop into a legit outside presence that draws coverage
and attention from defenses.
Speaker 4 (08:31):
I mean, I don't I think it's probably case by case,
but I don't think it's unreasonable to expect. I mean,
whatever the style of receiver, we've seen a lot of
guys over the last five seven years not necessarily be
those blue chip guys in the first round really develop
into weapons in the NFL. I mean, I have to
(08:54):
do a little more research to see how many of
those guys are strictly outside guys as opposed to slot guys.
But you know the names everybody knows, you know, Pooka,
and the cop as a fifth round pick last year,
you know, comes in and he looks like a seasoned
veteran from you know, week one did a lot of that,
by the way, without Cooper Cup early in the year
when when Cup was injured, so he didn't even have
(09:14):
the luxury of you know, kJ Osborne. There's probably a
thought in your mind that all he's playing with Justin
Jefferson and even a little like last year with Jordan
Addison who had a really good rookie year. How good
is he or is he just benefiting from open space
kind of you know makeshift Juju Smith Schuster thing with
with Kansas City from the year before. I think he's
(09:36):
probably a little bit better than that, not just a
product of the guys he was around, but that you know,
that's something you have to keep in mind when you
watch some of these guys in college too. But I
think you can develop. Why can't you develop a guy?
I absolutely think you can.
Speaker 5 (09:48):
Yeah, I think when you said that about kJ Osborne,
there's a touchdown of his last year where they just
ran it was called scissors, just two crossing routes like
this and three guys go to Justin Jefferson, and he's
just all loon in the corner of the end zone
by himself, and I was like, all right, well, we
got the guy that can catch it when he's all
alone in the end zone. But who's the guy that's
taking three guys with him in the coverage?
Speaker 7 (10:09):
Right?
Speaker 5 (10:09):
And that's what we're all talking about. That's what Matisse
was talking about. And I think some of these guys
in the draft. The good thing is is that some
of these Day two guys, especially early Day two guys,
probably would be first round picks in different drafts. This
draft is so loaded at the receiver position that if
you were to put some of these players in last
year's draft class, then a lot of those guys would
(10:29):
be in the conversation with the Zay Flowers of Quinton
Johnson to Jackson Smith and Jigba they're all in that
same tier. So thirty four is a nice pick to
have because if some of those guys slipped through the
cracks that you might have a really, really high grade on,
but they don't end up going in the first round,
you're going to have that opportunity at the top of
the second round or even to trade in late first
round to grab one of those guys. I'll mention one
(10:51):
more name who I don't know if he's necessarily going
to be a prototypical ex but xavierly Get from South
Carolina is rising extremely quick and had a great combine
two hundred and twenty one pounds, ran a sub four
four two twenty one six foot two two twenty one.
He can really move. I think he's like across prospect wise,
(11:12):
between AJ Brown and Debo, He's like right in the middle.
He's more natural receiver than Debo, but he's not quite
as big and stocky as AJ Brown, So he's like
right in the middle of those two guys. And he
had a great season last year at South Carolina. So
those types of guys like a like a Leget that
are explosive, good with the ball in their hands, you know,
chess pieces that you can move around the formation. I
(11:35):
could see those types of guys developing into what we're
all looking for at the next level. Maybe not as
we get into the tes Walkers, the Brendan Rice is
that tier. Those guys are probably just this is my
role and I'm gonna play it type of guys. But
there are some guys at the top of the second
round that are intriguing that that could fit in terms
of drawing coverage and being that that big time coverage dictator.
Speaker 2 (11:56):
You got anybody, tch, what do you want? You want
that X receiver.
Speaker 6 (11:59):
I know I'm a big Xavier Worthy guy. I know
he's not Zachty straight X, but you know he's a burner.
I know Evan doesn't like the burners, but he's proved it.
Speaker 5 (12:06):
I love the burners. I don't like that. I'm normally
not a guy that likes the Keon Coleman types like
I need separation at the top of the route and
if you want that, Xavier Worthy's guy all that. I
think one thing about Xavier Worthy that we have to
remember this is not just a really good combine tester.
This is a guy that has great film at Texas
on top of the fact that he broke the combine record.
(12:27):
I think a lot of people come swooping in towards
this time of year and are like, well, what makes
this guy different from Taekwon? What makes this guy different
from John Ross or some of these other guys that
ran really fast. His film at Texas shows legit route
running on top of the fact that he runs a
four to two to one.
Speaker 6 (12:43):
I love both the Texas kids.
Speaker 2 (12:44):
So that's all there, you go.
Speaker 3 (12:45):
We could talk about receivers all day long, but this
is going to be a show about offensive line.
Speaker 2 (12:49):
So we four of us sat down and.
Speaker 5 (12:51):
Oh right, yeah, I totally forgot about that.
Speaker 3 (12:54):
So check out here are our discussion on the offensive line.
Speaker 2 (12:57):
All right, we're here in the studio.
Speaker 3 (12:58):
We're gonna be talking offensive lines, and guys, this is
a big position, a need. First though, I gotta welcome
in Chris Cassidy making his debut here on Patriots Draft Countdown.
Speaker 2 (13:06):
Chris, we do good. You kind of you play a
little offensive line, Yeah, a little bit.
Speaker 8 (13:09):
I dabbled, dabbled in high school, not so much in college,
so eligibility left well four years. But I don't think
I'm gonna be taking that.
Speaker 3 (13:16):
Okay, So guys, we do as we get through free agency.
At least the initial part this is this is a
big need on this team and they didn't really address
it with it with a notable piece at least when
we're recording this right now. So sizeable need maybe not
something they could take. But Evan, I'm gonna start with
you because you have like you said, there are about
nine guys I have a kind of go in the
first round. I think you're gonna just rattle some of
them off.
Speaker 5 (13:35):
So is that what we want me to do? Because
it's it's the easiest way to do this right now,
we can just talk about the ones that we like.
Obviously at the top you have Olive Shanu and or
fash Now. I'm gonna get it right, Olu fash Now
and Joe Alt the time we go. J C. Latham,
Marius Smith is from Georgia, Talise Fugawa from Oregon State,
Tyler Geiton, Jordan Morgan, Troy fott Now, Kingsley, Sue, and
(13:57):
I tie Patrick Paul. I would say that that ten
right there or nine, whatever that is, is the start
of the first I would say top fifty picks in
the draft. You're talking about at least nine guys in
the top fifty, maybe six in the first round. It's
gonna be a top heavy class, but it's there's a
ton of talent at the top.
Speaker 3 (14:18):
So we know, like you said, a ton of talent
at the top. Maybe not what the Patriots are gonna hit.
Maybe we've talked about trading back up into the second
round to maybe or low first round, maybe early second
round is where the Patriots already are, but they probably
not gonna have a chance of those top guys. Maybe
some of the lesser ones though, guys, So let's just
kind of go around. We've all been doing our studying.
We found some guys we like, maybe that like you know,
day two, kind of in that range, Paul, what caught
(14:40):
your eye here on your extensive.
Speaker 4 (14:42):
That showed up to the midterm and hasn't been at
the class all year? You know me in the offensive line,
I don't go as in depth as most and certainly
not anywhere near as in depth as Evan does. I
do love those two guys at the top, and if
for whatever, I just want to throw the caveat out
the ear for whatever reason, they don't love one of
the quarterbacks. You know, these two guys, Alton fashion Now,
(15:06):
fashion Now, those two guys are outstanding prospects. So that
would be the only way you could get them is
if you decided to trade down and maybe you end
up at eight or nine and one of those guys
falls in your lap. I do like the Alabama guy.
I kind of feel like that's a pretty strong tradition
of offensive lineman. They're not without you know, Alex Leatherwooding.
(15:27):
You know, there's there's some misses and whatnot. But I
do like JC Latham, and I felt like the kid
from Georgia Mims is so ridiculously athletic, but doesn't have
a lot of playing experience, So that kind of worries
me a little bit, and I wonder if that causes
him to drop a little bit. A lot of people
feel like he's one of those that Evan just mentioned,
and maybe because very little real starting experience experience in college.
(15:51):
That's a lot like he doesn't have anywhere near the
amount of snaps that most of these other guys come
out of college with. Maybe that helps you. Maybe he
drops down in the the second round and you can
grab him. Doubtful, but I like the athleticism. That's probably
all I got.
Speaker 5 (16:05):
No, that's not bad. I honestly Mims. Start with him
just because you did seven career starts. He only has
eight hundred snaps in college under his belt. Some of
these guys were going to talk about over the next
couple of weeks have fifty career starts in college. So
he's someone that is very very raw, doesn't have a
ton of tape that I definitely think is a profile
(16:27):
that typically does project to the early second round when
you start to talk about guys that just have these
little red flags here and there, nothing major off the
field or anything like that, but hasn't been healthy, didn't
really win the starting job early on in his career.
That's Mims. His opportunity to start as the full time
starter was last year and he injured his ankle and
(16:47):
had to have tight road surgery came back at the
end of the year. So he has someone that has
all oozing with physical talent. If we're talking about a
player that made fifty career starts in college, he's probably
a top ten pick off of raw tools and the
film that it was available, but it's just a very
small sample size. Yeah, Yeah, obviously alt is in my mind,
(17:10):
one of the most can't miss prospects in this draft,
of not the most can't miss prospect in this draft,
because of his athleticism and because of his experience and
really just a very seasoned tackle prospect, someone that just
looks like he's going to walk off the bus on
an NFL field and be a starter right away. He's
extremely athletic, great feet, great posture in his stance, great balance,
(17:34):
really recognizes things happening in front of him post snap movement,
things like that. He's awesome to watch. I mean, he's
one of those guys that I get all excited about
just watching him on film. Fasher now is a little
bit more raw, I would say, but his physical tools
are immense, but he doesn't necessarily have the technique down
as smoothly as alt does, so he could be someone
(17:55):
that would be available in some of those trade down
scenarios that Paul is talking about. I think alts Floor
is probably the fifth or sixth pick in the draft,
depending on who makes those picks and where based off
of trades.
Speaker 4 (18:08):
Before we get Chris going, because I'm curious to hear
you know some of your different guys, some of the
different names. One thing that really stuck stood out to
me when watching like these top I watched the top
eight or ten of them really solid. Almost every one
of them. Pass protection is really really strong. Some of
them are not to me as as good in the
run game, and some of these guys, I think, you know,
(18:31):
Evan likes to talk about the zone schemes, that maybe
they want to be a little bit more athletic and
a little bit mobile. Some of these guys have that
and they're run blocking techniques, a little bit more mobile,
but really impressive. I think you look at all these
top guys that there's almost like no sacks allowed for
any of them.
Speaker 3 (18:46):
Yeah, we don't want to get too carried away because
probably Patriots, unless they trade down, probably not going to
get these top ranked guys. But Chris, we talked a
little bit about some lower round guys or even you know, midday,
what do you who stood out to you?
Speaker 9 (18:56):
Yeah?
Speaker 8 (18:57):
No, I looked at about like seven or so guys,
like say the Patriots go the quarterback ground one or
wider set a round one, you know guys I could
follow a second, third, fourth round. Even just did a
little bit of research. Again seven guys. I mean I
looked at the zag centers of the world Christian mahoganies.
But there are three guys that really stood out to me.
I mean those are more interior alignment. You don't really
need that necessarily this season. You have to see what
(19:18):
Cole Strange can do coming up, but hopefully that'll be
something solid. But yeah, three guys one of them Evant
already mentioned was Kingsley Assumataie. I mean he's a big fella.
He's six four, three hundred twenty six pounds. You know,
he's got great speed, right a five four forty five
four forty yard dash at the combine.
Speaker 2 (19:40):
You know you've seen Evan staring at him at the combine.
Speaker 5 (19:43):
He was just like, okay, So so I'm glad you
brought up Kingsley because that's my guy at thirty four.
So athleticism off the charts. Why cousin Penny Sewell, So
he has it in his blood right and offensive line
is one of those positions. And I know we're we
do this in a lot of other instances like Marvin
Harrison Junior with his dad and Patrick sart Tan years
(20:03):
ago with his dad. But offensive line is a unique position.
And when you have it in your blood like that
is I love that. I love when you yeah, when
you just have that lineage of I've just grew up
with this. You know, I grew up doing past sets
in my backyard. That's what I want to hear from
my offensive lineman. And that's what Kingsley was talking about
(20:23):
doing with his cousin with Penny Sewell, and they are
very similar body types and very similar athleticism. Maybe not
quite as as polished as Penny was coming out of college,
which is why he's gonna go a little bit later
than Penny Sewell did. But in terms of body type athleticism,
he's actually more athletic than Penny sewel is from the
(20:44):
combine testing, so's he's got a loays to go with
his technique a little bit, but in terms of just
raw tools, he's a really good bet. Yeah.
Speaker 8 (20:53):
And one of the stats really stuck out to me
was in twenty twenty two, three hundred and sixty one
snaps to not give up one sack. So that's a
huge number. I mean, Patriots were one of the highest
pressure teams in the league last season, and I mean
went through two quarterbacks and you saw both of them
go down multiple times, and I mean having a protection
like that is huge. One other person, I'm gonna try
(21:16):
my best to pronounce the dame, but Kieran Ahmud Image
I thought I got it earlier. Yeah, yeah, he's from Yale.
I didn't mention m. Kingsley's from BYU, but from Yale.
You know, Kieran another big fella six three twenty six
as well, only one secle out in twenty four games. Again,
(21:41):
good speed on that outside. You can put them really
left or right tackle, whatever you want to choose. That's,
of course you want to expect on one new to
step down to an interior ligneman type role. That's More's bill,
That's what he fits. But I want to know what
you guys think about him.
Speaker 5 (21:55):
Possibly, yeah, yeah, you know, I think that the biggest
thing when you look at him is obviously the jump
up in competition, especially at the offensive line. You want
to see a guy that dominates at that level of
competition if you're gonna draft him early, which you probably
are in maybe the third round, you know, top one hundred.
Certainly I saw some dominant streaks, but it wasn't as
(22:19):
dominant as maybe some of the other lower level guys
I've seen in years past. But he's definitely got the tools.
I think one thing that works against him sometimes those
guys that are really really tall, it kind of works
against him in the leverage and pad level situation. So
he's got to get some more flexibility and be able
to get down. But in terms of raw tools, definitely
fits the mold, and you hope it just translates to
(22:41):
the next level. I wish I'd seen him at the
Senior Bowl, but he either wasn't there or had an
injury or something like that. But it's it's tough sometimes
to project those guys to the next level. But every
once in a while, you see a guy that just
looks like a man amongst boys at you know, a
lower level IVY League D two whatever it is, and he,
I would say, fits that Bill.
Speaker 2 (23:01):
Yeah, two more, Chris, you got who too? I got
one more?
Speaker 7 (23:04):
One more? I one more?
Speaker 8 (23:05):
Well, I guess I got two more. But this one,
uh one of my favorite, one of the more I
guess interesting people that I studied. Javon Foster out in
the zoo. Uh again, another big fella. And there's two
offensive tackles that are in the upcoming draft that ranked
uh PFF over eighty in both categories pass blocking and
(23:27):
run blocking. And it was Joe Walt and Javon Foster.
And those are two huge statistical focuses there. And you know,
somebody with that type of stature and that type of
excuse me ability could go a long way with this
offensive line.
Speaker 5 (23:44):
Yes, he was a Senior Bowl guy. Definitely a riser
on Senior Bowl week and just a maller.
Speaker 7 (23:50):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (23:50):
I think, you know, a little bit smaller than I
was expecting terms of weight. He's like six five three twenty,
but it reminded me a lot of like a Marcus
Cannon type of Patriots right tackle. Bit more stocky guard build,
but definitely has the play strength. And you could see
him just getting on double teams with the kid from Yukon,
who I'm banging on his name right now, the guard
and those two guys just were moving the line of
(24:11):
scrimmage together, yeah, Haynes. Yeah, And they were really good
down there in Mobile. And I look at him, I
look at a guy like Christian Jones from Texas to
as maybe guys that could slip into the fourth round
there for the Patriots at the top of Day three
when they're on the clock, as you know, good prospects
at that spot.
Speaker 3 (24:28):
I'm gonna throw out four Deuce's mid round guys, mostly
from the combine, but Tyland Grabil was the number one
athletic score from UCF. Really athletic tackle is you know,
developmental guys. Julian Pearl another one thirty five and an
eighth inch Arms liked him a little bit from Illinois,
good link. Walter Rouse from Oklahoma another guy big, got
the size, you know, just needs to develop a little bit.
(24:50):
And finally Kid Wallace from Penn State, another highly athletic
guy that developmental, you know. And I think that's I
don't know, I don't know where they're going to land
in that like early second round, late first maybe if
they get somebody in there, but it just feels like
a double dip kind of position. And one of these
guys who has a lot of athleticism that you could
probably at least develop for the future, so you're not
getting back into this problem where you have no tackles.
Speaker 5 (25:12):
Yeah, yeah, I would say the only other ones that
we haven't mentioned just quickly. Patrick Paul from Houston is
a good second round target for the Patriots. Made forty
forty five career starts at left tackle at Houston, so
his experience, I'm not sure if he's necessarily going to
get significantly better. He's kind of tapped out physically, but
definitely someone that could step in and maybe play year
one just because of how much college experience he had.
(25:34):
And then you're really talking about guys that if they
did decide to trade back into the back end of
the first round. You know Tyler Geitton for example, you know,
is he someone that you would want to go up
and get Those types of players are there? You know
Troy fought now from Washington, he passed the thresholds for
tackles in terms of arm light. That was a question
mark with him coming into the combine. Maybe a guy
(25:56):
that would be you know, twenty five twenty to twenty
five range that you could sneak back up in the
first round and grab two. So it really is one
of those positions that early on, if they want that
day one impact starter, they gotta jump on the parade.
We talk about this all the time because they're just
gonna go. So once they're off the board and you
start getting into some of these other guys that Duce
mentioned or the Yale Kid or whatever, you're starting to
(26:19):
get into more developmental guys that are probably not gonna
be rookie starters.
Speaker 4 (26:22):
I just wanted to throw and I don't remember if
Evan had this in your list at the beginning.
Speaker 2 (26:27):
The Duke Kid Barton.
Speaker 4 (26:31):
More so, because I thought he was really and I'm
still sticking into the old patriotsing the versatility played some
center played, some left tackle. Not a lot of guys
play like interior and then tackle. So you know, you
think Mike go when you you know a guy with
some versatility inside out. Yeah, not one of the top
rated guys, but maybe a guy on day two.
Speaker 2 (26:50):
I put Dominic Puny in there too. Another guy play
a bunch of different spots.
Speaker 5 (26:54):
Graham Barton is Yes, so Graham Barton projects as a
guard at the next level. But somebody that could back
up attack almost like a different player than on Wenny.
But just say idea that he could back up drawing
stuff that you like, Yeah, could you know pin and poll?
You know that kind of stuff that runs a pin pole?
You want pin poll, you want zone. I'm telling you,
Kingsley sum I Tie is the guy. That guy you
(27:16):
watch him on tape. You watch him get into space,
get out of his stance, first step, All that stuff checks.
Speaker 4 (27:21):
All So adding that into my word dictionary, this quickness
is just so which part yeah, Kingsley, Oh yeah, the
whole thing.
Speaker 2 (27:30):
Well, there we go, guys.
Speaker 3 (27:31):
We did the first positional preview here. Offensive line a
lot of names, huge need for the Patriots. Now. Evan
also had a chance to talk to Brandon Thorn, who
gives his expert opinion on a bunch of these guys
as well.
Speaker 2 (27:41):
So trying to cover all the bases here.
Speaker 3 (27:43):
Check out what Evan end and Brandon had to say.
Speaker 5 (27:45):
All right, everybody, I'm very excited to join, but be
joined by there we go. All right, been a long day.
Be joined by Brandon Thorn, he writes for a Trench Warfare.
Give him a subscription on there, and also Bleacher Report
and Brandon, I use your Bleacher Report scouting reports all
the time on the offensive line. I always love looking
at your insight and your rankings and everything like that.
(28:07):
So that's a great resource. All you got to do
is google Joe all to Bleacher Report, Joel Brandon Thorn,
and his full scouting report will pop right up on
your screen for you to read about these guys. And
you know way more about all these technical terms and
things like that than I do. So it's a lot
of fun to read though. So thanks so much for
doing this and happy to have you here.
Speaker 9 (28:28):
Yeah, man, I'm always happy to talk with you and yeah,
excited to be here, So thanks for inviting me.
Speaker 5 (28:35):
No problem, No problem. I talked to you at the
combine briefly, and I probably kept you for a little
bit too long, just asking you questions about every single
Patriots offensive lineman and where they fit on the roster.
So I did want to start really quickly off the top.
They obviously resigned Mike on Wenu, big move for them
this offseason in free agency. Where do you see him
(28:58):
fitting into this equation in the Alex Van Pelt offense.
There's a lot of conversations about if he fits at
tackle in a more zone based scheme.
Speaker 9 (29:07):
Yeah, I mean, I just think even kind of regardless
of scheme. I know there's probably some nuances there, you know,
to where he's a little bit better fit at this
position in that scheme, But just generally, I think at
right guard is the spot that you want to put
him in pretty much all schemes and you'll probably get,
at the end of the day, the best version of him.
Speaker 7 (29:28):
Uh. You know, we talked about this as.
Speaker 9 (29:29):
The combine, and I think his contract kind of alludes
to more of a guard as well, based on you know,
kind of what I know at least I'm not a
contract expert, but just the fact that he can do
both though, is you know, extremely valuable, and it just
adds flexibility to how you build stuff out.
Speaker 7 (29:47):
And then if stuff goes wrong with injuries or whatever,
you know, you.
Speaker 9 (29:49):
Have a guy like that, it's just adds to his value.
But I think when you watch his film over the
last several years, uh, you know, it's with a highlight
on last your in particular, he's clearly better at garden
than tackle and that stems from pass protection, you know,
where I guess in a Van Pelt scheme, maybe that
(30:10):
could be mitigated to a degree with you know, whether
it's RPOs or play action, you know, being a run
first offense, things like that. But on an island, you know,
the range or lack thereof to protect the corner against
you know, high side rushes from wide alignments from good
or better players. I mean, it's just shaky. So you
(30:33):
can kind of mitigate that a little bit inside and
get the best of him and allow his play strength
and his size and his power you know, to really shine.
And I just think it's interesting because CD so you know,
was there and I thought him and so in the
run game with on one would tackle you know, that
was awesome. But passpro with both of them, you know,
(30:56):
with shaky understandably, so it's so being a rookie, you know,
day three pick, but now that you've got a CORPS
four in there, it tells me, you know, maybe they
are thinking more guards. So I don't know, it's it's
still kind of up in the air and there's variables there,
but you know, I like the depth on the interior.
Speaker 7 (31:12):
I think overall though too.
Speaker 5 (31:13):
Yeah, I would get into a Corps for but we
really do want to focus on the draft specifically on
this show. So I'll get into some of the draft
guys and I just start at the top. I obviously
love Joe Alt. I think we all can see the
talent there. It's not maybe the most popular pick among
Patriots fans to take a tackle early on in the
draft over a quarterback or Marvin Harrison Junior or something
(31:36):
like that. But what makes Joe Walt such a great
prospect in your mind?
Speaker 9 (31:41):
Yeah, just to you know, piggyback on that, I think
ideally you trade down in draft jolt, but yeah, if
you do pick him at three, I mean I still think, Yeah,
the part that makes him, you know, so appealing is
I think you look at the fact that he is
so young.
Speaker 7 (31:56):
You know, he's like a month or.
Speaker 9 (31:57):
Two younger than even Olu, you know, for Seanna from State,
who is considered a very young player. So I think
they just they both turned just twenty one, are about
to turn twenty one, so they're gonna be twenty one
for the duration of the rookie year. And the fact
that he is so young and so polished with his technique,
specifically as a run blocker. That's the thing when you
(32:18):
watch this film that really jumped out to me. For
a guy being almost six ' nine, you know, a
legit six ' eight, you know, three twenty plus, the
leverage that he plays with in the run game is
just tremendous. Like he's a Notre Dame offensive lineman personified.
It's just he's six ' eight, long arms, and really athletic,
and you know, I just so I love that he
(32:40):
has that part of his game that is really gonna,
I think, create a high floor for him as a player.
And then the pass pro the traits are certainly there.
I mean, he's good too. He's productive as a pass
protector in terms of blocking guys with good technique and
you know, having the athletic ability to certainly do it.
Not the most powerful guy you know that is in
(33:03):
the draft or you know, or anything like that. He
plays a lot like Jake Matthews, but he's in like
Nate Soldier's body. That's kind of like what I've seen
from him, you know, since I wrote his report, you know,
in December or whatever it was, So yeah, I think
he kind of confirmed. They tests very similarly to to
Nate Solder coming out of Colorado.
Speaker 7 (33:23):
It's just I think he's a higher quality prospect.
Speaker 9 (33:25):
Than he was, and you know, I just, yeah, it's
tough to poke holes in his game.
Speaker 7 (33:31):
Aside from saying that he's not the most powerful guy.
Speaker 5 (33:33):
Yeah, you mentioned Nate Solder. Obviously everybody here is familiar
with Nate Soldier's game. And the one thing I remember
talking to to Scarnekia and some of the coaches about
with Nate Solder is that he was honestly almost too tall,
where you know, his lower half was in flexible enough,
and sometimes leverage and stuff like that was an issue.
But you just kind of perfectly said about how that's
(33:56):
not really a concern with joll because of how flexible
he is in his lowers to be able to get
down and create leverage.
Speaker 9 (34:03):
Yeah, that's that's the part that impressed me more than
anything watching him on film. I mean, I was pretty
floored by his run blocking on film because when you
see him in his stance on film, you could tell
he's huge.
Speaker 7 (34:16):
Just he's just an enormous dude.
Speaker 9 (34:18):
So typically those guys, when they get out of their stance,
especially post contact in the second, third, fourth phase of
the rum block, the pads just rise and they gradually
lose leverage. They get to spots quick but then in
terms of sustaining and finishing, it gets real dicey really quickly.
But for him, his ability to keep his pads down,
(34:38):
you know, bend at the ankle's knees and hips, sustain.
Speaker 7 (34:41):
Move his feet. He has a good feel you.
Speaker 9 (34:44):
Know for body positioning on blocks, and he plays a
great effort. He's a great finisher. So his ability to
sustain and finish rum blocks at a guy his size
is really I think the most rare part of his evaluation,
like what he offers, you know, and so yeah, it's
it's it's quite a bit different than they soldier, uh,
(35:06):
you know, in how it manifests on the field.
Speaker 7 (35:08):
You know, their skill set.
Speaker 5 (35:09):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely, before we move on to the Day
two guys, just quickly. It probably won't be the Patriots
that take Olu Fashanu, but maybe in a trade down
scenario or something like that, it ends up being more
of a conversation. Let's say they trade with, you know,
someone like at eleven, the Minnesota Vikings for example, or
something maybe more of Ashani's range. What do you see
with him that is he as pro ready to you
(35:32):
as Alt is? And you do you think that both
those guys are plug and play Day one franchise left tackles.
Speaker 9 (35:40):
I do think that Olu is a plug and play starter.
You know, I gave him a grade that suggests he's
a you know, a really good starter right away now,
you know, in terms of being as pro ready or
polished as Joe Walt, I don't. I don't think that's
the case. And so you know, with Olu, like I
(36:01):
think the thing that his kind of trump card, you know,
if you will, as a prospect is his pass protection
ability and just how natural his movements are in past protection,
getting out of his stance, mirroring guys, recovering, anchoring, utilizing
his length.
Speaker 7 (36:17):
In a really nice way.
Speaker 9 (36:18):
With independent hands, and you saw that two years ago
when he stepped onto the field for the first time
in college and just how natural he was, and that
pretty much carried through for all twenty one or whatever
starts that he had aside from the Ohio State game
this year. You really can't poke many holes in his
game as a pass protector aside from that one tape,
(36:40):
because I pretty much watched him all and I think
that's the case now. Run blocking is a different story.
He's much more raw there than Joe Walt, although you
did see progress this year after that Ohio State game
in particular, the rest of the season were his best
tapes as a run blocker. He really kind of flipped
(37:00):
switch after that game. And I remember talking to him
about it a little bit as well during the time,
because I had a question about a clip against Ohio
State that he, you know, answered for me, and he
basically said, like, you know, yeah, I know that was
my worst game, and you know, he was highly motivated
to correct that and he did so. Just the fact
(37:20):
that he and what I mean by that is a
run blocker, like his ability to or struggles to sustain
and finish blocks, letting guys get off of him a
little early, across his face and just kind of fall
off stuff a little prematurely.
Speaker 7 (37:33):
That was kind of.
Speaker 9 (37:33):
Prevalent throughout his career, I thought, and you just always
wanted a little bit more physicality and just control from him.
But then, like I said, after that game, he showed it.
So that was really encouraging to me that that's just
the fact that you could see it.
Speaker 7 (37:48):
Now.
Speaker 9 (37:48):
It does need to be more consistent and things like that,
but yeah, it's kind of an inverse thing. Like Joe Walt,
you're getting a really really polished, high end run blocker
and a good pass protector, and then Olu, I think
you're getting a really really polished past protector and maybe
like a below average to average rum blocker. But again
they're so young and all that, I would expect those
things to improve, yeah, at least a little bit.
Speaker 5 (38:11):
So yeah, yeah, two really good prospects there. I'm gonna
skip over a group that I feel like is in
a weird spot for the Patriots. You know, the Talisa Fugawa's,
the J. C. Lathams like those guys probably going to
go somewhere in between the Patriots two picks. So let's
go to the top of Day two at thirty four,
which is they take a quarterback at three, then thirty
(38:32):
four is probably the pick that's going to be earmarked
for a tackle. One would think, who are some of
the guys that a you could see falling to that spot,
but be more importantly that you like on film.
Speaker 9 (38:44):
Yeah, so yeah, so Latham would be my tackle three.
My tackle four is Marius Mims, you know. So I'd
assume those guys are gone, and then you know five
and six Tyler Geydon and Kingsley Swim, Mattia from Byu.
Speaker 7 (38:59):
Guidens probably gone, Sue and Matia there.
Speaker 9 (39:01):
I would say it probably starts at Sue and Matia
as a guy who could potentially be there, uh at
your pick at thirty four.
Speaker 7 (39:09):
So he's a guy I do like.
Speaker 9 (39:11):
I mean, I gave him, you know, a let me
just get the potential impact starter. So like a low
end second round pick, I'm sure you know that's gonna
get a bump, as tackles do. He's gonna probably be
a late first round pick. But there is just more
of this sort of rawness that we've spoke about. But
it's it's pretty much in all areas of his game,
(39:31):
I think, as opposed to just one uh there, there's
a lot to work with there in terms of physical traits, height, weight, length,
frame build, athletic ability, the way he moves, it's natural
for him. You could tell he's a former five star recruit.
You know, he's cousins with Pine Sewel and trains with him,
and you know, chances are he's going to develop at
(39:54):
least into a solid starter. If not, you know, he
could potentially be really good. Who knows, But he came
out as a retro sophomore, you know, so he's just
young and raw, but it'll be really interesting to see.
Speaker 7 (40:06):
So he's one.
Speaker 9 (40:07):
Guy that I would say would be available and actually
kind of add value, have value at that pick. After that,
I mean, I have a lot of tackles that are
kind of projected inside but could play inside that could
be available there. The first one that comes to mind
is probably Jordan Morgan from Arizona, who's you know, he's
(40:28):
a big, strong guy. Came back from a torn acl
really quickly this past year, less than a year, I
think like nine months, and he started the whole year,
which was impressive. But he has kind of a reoccurring
issue in pass protection.
Speaker 7 (40:42):
That leads to me to believe.
Speaker 9 (40:44):
That it'd probably be best that he kicks inside, although
I'm sure and I've heard teams are gonna view him
as a tackle. But yeah, you know, those two guys,
if I had to bet top of the second round
to play tackle, Jordan Morgan and Kings of Suwamatia would
probably be my best bets there.
Speaker 5 (41:02):
What do you think about Patrick Paul from Houston? Because
I feel like he's always projected a little bit after
those two guys that you mentioned, but a little bit
before the next wave of guys is sort of that
tweeer on Day two.
Speaker 9 (41:15):
Yeah, so I have more of a third round grade
on Patrick Paul, but certainly, like you know, traits wise,
you got to start there. You know, he's you know,
six seven, six ' eight. I think he's six seven,
like three thirty three twenty three thirty you know, elite length,
you know, thirty six plus in charms and he's really
strong actually when he actually gets his hands inside. But
(41:37):
that's the problem. He struggles to kind of get his
hands inside of guys. He's very wide and kind of
a little uh, you know, I don't want to say lazy,
but just inconsistent with his hand placement I think is
probably the best term, and that just creates a lot
of leverage issues Guys getting inside of him.
Speaker 7 (41:58):
You know, driving him back.
Speaker 9 (42:00):
Saw it at Senior Bowl one on ones, where you
see it on tape all over the place.
Speaker 7 (42:03):
I mean, it's just it's up and down. But you
love the size, you love the strength.
Speaker 9 (42:08):
And the thing that I probably like most about him
that's kind of most surprising with the guy with his
all that stuff I just said, is his competitive toughness
is very, very good. He's physical tone setter, and you
don't get that a lot at tackle, you know, I
don't think especially left.
Speaker 7 (42:24):
So you know, I think he's a better.
Speaker 9 (42:26):
Prospect than his brother was coming out of Tulsa a
couple of years ago, Chris Paul. And you know, he's
working with Duke Mannyweather at Oil Masterminds, which is encouraging
because most of his issues are technique based. I think
it would be a little bit of a reach there,
but I think he could he could feasibly go there,
you know, I think that's definitely possible.
Speaker 5 (42:46):
Yeah, So before I let you go, just some some
day three sleepers a couple of guys, you know from
the Senior Bowl, Christian Jones, h Javon Foster might be
you know, early day three if they do slip into
day three. Those are two guys I caught my mind,
but you go, you know, a lot deeper than I do,
so or any sleepers that that you like on day
three for the Pats.
Speaker 9 (43:06):
Okay, day three, so we'll assume that Roger Rosengard and
Blake Fisher are gone. Yeah after them, Yeah, Javon Foster,
you get into that. The print there, the Yale kid
is intriguing as a Day three guy to me. Yeah,
Cayden Wallace maybe you know these guys. You know, if
(43:26):
I had to pick a favorite pure tackle out of
those guys, it would definitely be Javon Foster. And that's
that's because of first, I think the improvement that he
showed from twenty twenty two to twenty twenty three, because
I watched him last year thinking he could potentially come out,
and I just you know, I'm glad he went back,
and I thought he played with a lot more control
(43:50):
this year. He's not as kind of wild and you know,
he's a heavy two hand strike guy in pass protection.
He tries to kind of kill guys with his punch
and I can get him into trouble. He kind of
reeled that back a little bit, played with more patients.
Uh So for him to show that was nice and
then you know, had a really nice Senior.
Speaker 7 (44:06):
Bowl as well. Yeah, not perfect.
Speaker 9 (44:09):
But you know good and uh, you know, I just
think he's also a guy traits guy for sure. In
terms of you know, high weight, build, length, I would
say athletic ability with him is uh, you know, maybe
like solid, you know to good.
Speaker 7 (44:24):
Not a bad athlete, not a great athlete, but good. Uh.
Speaker 9 (44:27):
He's coming from a heavy RPO system at Missouri, which
you know kind of protected him a little bit in
past protection, which wouldn't be an issue if he's doing
that in the pros. But he's you know, that's why
he's a Day three guy because you just don't feel
great relying on him. But yeah, if you're picking a
guy in day three, he kind of reminds me of
(44:49):
Sean Coleman coming out of years back from Auburn. You know,
he's he's that kind of guy who he has started
level size, length and athletic ability. But you're going to
need to be patient there and you know, ideally he's
part of a rotation.
Speaker 5 (45:04):
Yeah, definitely somebody that senior bull riser columns all over
the place after mobile people mover. That's what I noticed
about him was his play strength, and I did a
great job on those double team blocks and things like
that in those drills.
Speaker 9 (45:18):
Yeah. Yeah, he has power at the point of attack
for sure, it's just after the fact if guys challenge him,
he gets out leveraged pretty quickly and he's kind of
late to adjust. He over extends his body control isn't great,
but yeah, I mean double teams is a great opportunity
to just unload on somebody with help and not have
(45:39):
to rely on It's more about immediate displacement as opposed
to you know, a base block you know where you know,
it's a lot different in terms of, you know, after
the point of attack. So yeah, there's certain areas where
you know, I think he has a lot of appeal
and could help right away. It's just you know, he
just needs some work, you know, with technique.
Speaker 5 (46:00):
Yeah, absolutely, he's Brandon Thorne. As you can tell those
everything there is to know about the offensive line and
off offensive line guru, you can find him at Trench Warfare.
Please subscribe there to read Brandon stuff. He does free agency,
he does the draft, a lot of great write ups
on all these guys, and obviously on Bleacher Report you
can read his scouting reports on all the draft prospects
(46:20):
in the twenty twenty four NFL Draft. Thanks for joining us, Brandon.
Speaker 7 (46:23):
Yeah, happy to do it, guys, thanks for having me.
Speaker 3 (46:25):
All right, that's going to do it for this episode
of Patriots Draft Countdown.
Speaker 2 (46:28):
Will be back next week.
Speaker 3 (46:29):
It's going to be a busy week for us. Evan
your head now to do some pro days. He's going
to get an up close look at both UNC and
Georgia right right, SSU might apologize, I'm going to be
I'm going to be at the owners meetings, so we'll
see maybe if some deals get done. So we'll be
back next week though, taking a look at the secondary.
Speaker 2 (46:47):
And don't worry, all will be here. He's got covered
This is Patriots Draft Countdown presented by bud Light.
Speaker 2 (00:05):
Welcome to an NFL draft.
Speaker 1 (00:07):
Hosted by the writers of Patriots dot Com. From now
until you here the New England Patriots Slight, the Countdown
is on. Welcome to the Patriots Draft Countdown presented by
bud Light.
Speaker 2 (00:20):
What's up, everybody?
Speaker 3 (00:21):
Welcome to Patriots Draft Countdown presented by bud Light, Easy
to Drink, Easy to enjoy, bud Light, the official beer
sponsor of the New England Patriots. And today we're gonna
touching on a number of topics all related to the draft.
We've got a great offensive line preview. Evan had a
chance to sit down and talk with Brandon Thorne really
drilled down on some of those offensive line prospects. But
first here in this first segment, we're just gonna kind
(00:42):
of catch everybody up on some of the latest news
that's happened over the last week since the last episode
relating directly to the Patriots and how it impacts their draft.
Speaker 2 (00:50):
So, guys want to start at the top. Justin Fields.
Speaker 3 (00:53):
He is now a Pittsburgh Steeler, So we know we
spent a lot of time talking over the last few
months about Justin Field's potential to come here. Now he's
kind of off the table. To start with you, Paul,
you know, what was kind of your reaction to that,
and how do you think that does that impact the
Patriots at all?
Speaker 4 (01:07):
Yeah, I mean I would say personally, just you know,
very selfishly, I'm glad that he got moved to somebody
so we could sort of stop with Like to me,
when they signed Jakobe Brissett, that kind of eliminated the
Justin Fields portion of the Patriots connection to that possibility,
but the questions were persisting, So I'm glad it kind
(01:28):
of got resolved. I'm not overly surprised. I think if
you saw it, like you know, Chicago had made it
clear that they were looking to deal him. They wanted
to do right by him and move him as quickly
as they could, and it took a while. So that
told me that there wasn't a tremendous amount of interest.
Now they also people around the league. If you're interested
in Justin Fields, you knew Chicago was going to have
to release him at some point if they weren't able
(01:49):
to make a deal, So that lowers the value you know,
a conditional pick if he plays for Pittsburgh, it's a
fourth round pick. If he doesn't, it's a sixth round pick.
So I think it's probably the best for Chicago and
fields Pittsburgh specifically. I know we're not necessarily caring about Pittsburgh.
I think it makes a little sense because I'm not
sold on Russell Wilson, and I know they've said that
(02:11):
it's Russell Wilson's job, but we'll see.
Speaker 5 (02:14):
Yeah, it makes a lot of sense for Pittsburgh because
they have the twentieth pick in the draft, so they're
not gonna have an opportunity to take a Jayden Daniels
or Drake may or one of these guys. So their
upside play is justin Fields, which I think makes sense
for a team like that. But clearly teams like the Commanders,
teams like the Patriots, teams like the Minnesota Vikings, they
didn't have much interest in Justin fields because they were
(02:35):
more worried about the guys in the draft and Tyler
talking about contract and value and things like that. Justin
Field's coming up in his fourth year. He's gonna have
to get paid at some point, even if he is
starting caliber or versus starting all over first year of
a rookie contract. Now you have team control for the
next five years. It's a much different scenario. So I
get it for a team like Pittsburgh. I never really
(02:56):
got it for a team like the Patriots that had
that pick to be able to take quarterback in the
draft and basically do what people would want you to
do with Justin Fields, which is develop him and hope
that you can tap into the upside. So it makes
sense that he's not coming here makes sense for Pittsburgh.
I think the Justin Fields too, and Justin Fields and
Marvin Harrison junior pairing that everybody called in and emailed in.
(03:18):
Sorry rip to that take.
Speaker 6 (03:20):
That was me tp right up, Like part of me
is a little upset. I've always been a Justin Fields guy.
I'm surprised how cheap he ended up going to Pittsburgh for.
But as Paul said, I'm kind of happy this is
done with. It's fun to, like, you know, picture what
could have happened. But it's done. He's in Pittsburgh. I'll
be upset about it, but I'll get over it.
Speaker 3 (03:39):
So it's just some clarity, though, is where we get
into this last month.
Speaker 2 (03:43):
It's like, you know, I mean, my favorite.
Speaker 3 (03:44):
Part of the draft usually is the day after the draft,
when you're like, here's the ten guys that you have
and you can just kind of focus on those instead
of doing all this speculation. So that speculation is now out.
So I'm glad about that. But the Patriots did make
a move this weekend, signing kJ Osborne, receiver, kind of
the third receiver there in Minnesota. We know they missed
out on Calvin Ridley really, you know, coming in with
(04:04):
a big offer kind of showing. I think that this
you know, regime understands that you got to take a
big swing on those kind of players. But they're settling
for kJ Osborne, who kind of himself settles into a
group Paul that it kind of looks similar to me.
You know, it's it's kJ Osbourne, It's it's Kendrick Bourne.
It's a lot of those kind of not a big
outside X guy, a lot of these guys that you
can kind of move around in the slot. We'll see
(04:24):
how it all plays out, but I think they've got
nine receivers on the roster.
Speaker 4 (04:27):
Throw Demario Douglass in there too, and I agree, and listen,
he's been you know, I would say, a professional receiver.
I think he's He's been reasonably productive in Minnesota, So
I don't I don't think this is a move like
you just like scoff at. But you do wonder, you know,
where those outside guys, the guys that Evan's been talking
about for the last couple of weeks, those X receivers,
where are they're gonna come from. Mike Williams is still,
(04:49):
you know available, kind of a strange story about him
with the Jets, you know, coming out over the last
couple of days. But I like Osborne, I think it's
a good addition. I think create more competition. You know,
it's some insurance if Kenrick Bourne doesn't you know, bounce back,
you know from the town. Acl is as quickly and
as well as everybody hopes, so you know, bring them in,
(05:11):
create some competition. You need a lot of receivers in camp.
Those guys run a lot in camp.
Speaker 3 (05:15):
I'm wann to t up Evan just because what do
you think this does to affect their draft needs? Because
you've talked a lot about it. Paul just mentioned you
talking about it, the need for an outside X. They
got rid of DeVante Parker, who pretty much played that
role last year. I look at this roster, I don't
see anybody on it. So would you say going into
the draft that we don't really need to spend time
thinking about these Z kind of receivers. Let's focus on
(05:35):
guys that could potentially be an.
Speaker 5 (05:36):
X Yeah, I would say yes, But at the same time,
I would hate to pigeonhole yourself just to one type
of receiver, because that's what it looks like on paper.
You're missing. The Patriots need talent at that position. So
if they grade out Ladd McConkie as a much better
player than Keon coleman, and they should draft Lad McConkie,
they shouldn't draft Keon coleman. You figure it out down
the road. But you look at some of these receivers
(05:58):
in that X mold, some guys they're probably going to
go in the first round. Obviously we know about Marvin
Harrison Junior, Romadoonze, those guys off the top of the draft.
Then you go to the Brian Thomas Junior, is the
Aighty Mitchell tier, that sort of next wave. Keon Coleman
to me is somewhere in the middle between the next wave.
On Day two in the first round guys, and then
you'd see some of those probably around three picks, like
(06:19):
a tes Walker, like a Brendan Rice. So I know
a lot of people like because of the lineage and
everything like that. So I think all those guys are
interesting for different reasons. I'm not the biggest fan of
Coleman gives me too many Nikhil Harry vibes with you know,
no separation, contested catch type of guy. I really do
like Brendan Rice a lot, not just because his father's
Jerry Rice, but just watching him on film. Explosive guy,
(06:43):
can run routes as an ex bigger guy, can win
contested catches, but also seems to be able to get
separation on slants and breakers, things like that. So there's
some guys there. And then obviously just quickly tes Walker
pairing him with Drake may Is college quarterback. Maybe they
go that direction for you, So I love it.
Speaker 6 (07:00):
I would love it. I need something that moves the needle.
kJ Osborne, it's just tough. We missed out on Ridley
Keenan a left and it's like here's kJ Osbourne, Like,
I don't know, we need something.
Speaker 4 (07:09):
So I just met the whole college quarterback receiver.
Speaker 2 (07:12):
I would love that.
Speaker 6 (07:13):
I would love that.
Speaker 5 (07:16):
He scares me a little bit, I'm not gonna lie.
I think part of it is because of the offense
that he played in at North Carolina. It's an air
raid system, so a lot of his reps are just
him running by people in a straight line. And those
types of guys always give me concern because they don't
have a lot of branches on the route tree. Yet
you know, is he going to be able to run
three different levels of routes? Senior Bowl was not a
good week for him either. So as much as I
(07:38):
love the idea of taking the college quarterback and pairing
him with his number one receiver, there are some concerns
with tes Walker on film that you are a little
bit hesitant. Maybe third or fourth round would be good value,
but I'm probably not taking him inside the top fifty.
Speaker 6 (07:53):
If you take someone in the third or the fourth.
As du said, we have nine receivers on a roster,
that's pretty open competition for me. So if you're a
rookie coming in like this is your chance to do it?
Speaker 3 (08:02):
So yeah, Well, I mean one more question though, is
usually you know you talk about the X receiver. These
are the big dogs, right, These are the guys that
you know don't need help. They can get off the line,
they can get off press. Is it too much to
kind of hope to develop a guy like that? Not
quite as crazy as like a quarterback, Like usually if
you're in a quarterback Day two, day three, it's it's
a developmental guy. You're probably not having high hopes that
this guy is going to be a star.
Speaker 2 (08:22):
But is it unreasonable to.
Speaker 3 (08:23):
Kind of hope that you could take a guy like
that in the middle of the draft and that he
will develop into a legit outside presence that draws coverage
and attention from defenses.
Speaker 4 (08:31):
I mean, I don't I think it's probably case by case,
but I don't think it's unreasonable to expect. I mean,
whatever the style of receiver, we've seen a lot of
guys over the last five seven years not necessarily be
those blue chip guys in the first round really develop
into weapons in the NFL. I mean, I have to
(08:54):
do a little more research to see how many of
those guys are strictly outside guys as opposed to slot guys.
But you know the names everybody knows, you know, Pooka,
and the cop as a fifth round pick last year,
you know, comes in and he looks like a seasoned
veteran from you know, week one did a lot of that,
by the way, without Cooper Cup early in the year
when when Cup was injured, so he didn't even have
(09:14):
the luxury of you know, kJ Osborne. There's probably a
thought in your mind that all he's playing with Justin
Jefferson and even a little like last year with Jordan
Addison who had a really good rookie year. How good
is he or is he just benefiting from open space
kind of you know makeshift Juju Smith Schuster thing with
with Kansas City from the year before. I think he's
(09:36):
probably a little bit better than that, not just a
product of the guys he was around, but that you know,
that's something you have to keep in mind when you
watch some of these guys in college too. But I
think you can develop. Why can't you develop a guy?
I absolutely think you can.
Speaker 5 (09:48):
Yeah, I think when you said that about kJ Osborne,
there's a touchdown of his last year where they just
ran it was called scissors, just two crossing routes like
this and three guys go to Justin Jefferson, and he's
just all loon in the corner of the end zone
by himself, and I was like, all right, well, we
got the guy that can catch it when he's all
alone in the end zone. But who's the guy that's
taking three guys with him in the coverage?
Speaker 7 (10:09):
Right?
Speaker 5 (10:09):
And that's what we're all talking about. That's what Matisse
was talking about. And I think some of these guys
in the draft. The good thing is is that some
of these Day two guys, especially early Day two guys,
probably would be first round picks in different drafts. This
draft is so loaded at the receiver position that if
you were to put some of these players in last
year's draft class, then a lot of those guys would
(10:29):
be in the conversation with the Zay Flowers of Quinton
Johnson to Jackson Smith and Jigba they're all in that
same tier. So thirty four is a nice pick to
have because if some of those guys slipped through the
cracks that you might have a really, really high grade on,
but they don't end up going in the first round,
you're going to have that opportunity at the top of
the second round or even to trade in late first
round to grab one of those guys. I'll mention one
(10:51):
more name who I don't know if he's necessarily going
to be a prototypical ex but xavierly Get from South
Carolina is rising extremely quick and had a great combine
two hundred and twenty one pounds, ran a sub four
four two twenty one six foot two two twenty one.
He can really move. I think he's like across prospect wise,
(11:12):
between AJ Brown and Debo, He's like right in the middle.
He's more natural receiver than Debo, but he's not quite
as big and stocky as AJ Brown, So he's like
right in the middle of those two guys. And he
had a great season last year at South Carolina. So
those types of guys like a like a Leget that
are explosive, good with the ball in their hands, you know,
chess pieces that you can move around the formation. I
(11:35):
could see those types of guys developing into what we're
all looking for at the next level. Maybe not as
we get into the tes Walkers, the Brendan Rice is
that tier. Those guys are probably just this is my
role and I'm gonna play it type of guys. But
there are some guys at the top of the second
round that are intriguing that that could fit in terms
of drawing coverage and being that that big time coverage dictator.
Speaker 2 (11:56):
You got anybody, tch, what do you want? You want
that X receiver.
Speaker 6 (11:59):
I know I'm a big Xavier Worthy guy. I know
he's not Zachty straight X, but you know he's a burner.
I know Evan doesn't like the burners, but he's proved it.
Speaker 5 (12:06):
I love the burners. I don't like that. I'm normally
not a guy that likes the Keon Coleman types like
I need separation at the top of the route and
if you want that, Xavier Worthy's guy all that. I
think one thing about Xavier Worthy that we have to
remember this is not just a really good combine tester.
This is a guy that has great film at Texas
on top of the fact that he broke the combine record.
(12:27):
I think a lot of people come swooping in towards
this time of year and are like, well, what makes
this guy different from Taekwon? What makes this guy different
from John Ross or some of these other guys that
ran really fast. His film at Texas shows legit route
running on top of the fact that he runs a
four to two to one.
Speaker 6 (12:43):
I love both the Texas kids.
Speaker 2 (12:44):
So that's all there, you go.
Speaker 3 (12:45):
We could talk about receivers all day long, but this
is going to be a show about offensive line.
Speaker 2 (12:49):
So we four of us sat down and.
Speaker 5 (12:51):
Oh right, yeah, I totally forgot about that.
Speaker 3 (12:54):
So check out here are our discussion on the offensive line.
Speaker 2 (12:57):
All right, we're here in the studio.
Speaker 3 (12:58):
We're gonna be talking offensive lines, and guys, this is
a big position, a need. First though, I gotta welcome
in Chris Cassidy making his debut here on Patriots Draft Countdown.
Speaker 2 (13:06):
Chris, we do good. You kind of you play a
little offensive line, Yeah, a little bit.
Speaker 8 (13:09):
I dabbled, dabbled in high school, not so much in college,
so eligibility left well four years. But I don't think
I'm gonna be taking that.
Speaker 3 (13:16):
Okay, So guys, we do as we get through free agency.
At least the initial part this is this is a
big need on this team and they didn't really address
it with it with a notable piece at least when
we're recording this right now. So sizeable need maybe not
something they could take. But Evan, I'm gonna start with
you because you have like you said, there are about
nine guys I have a kind of go in the
first round. I think you're gonna just rattle some of
them off.
Speaker 5 (13:35):
So is that what we want me to do? Because
it's it's the easiest way to do this right now,
we can just talk about the ones that we like.
Obviously at the top you have Olive Shanu and or
fash Now. I'm gonna get it right, Olu fash Now
and Joe Alt the time we go. J C. Latham,
Marius Smith is from Georgia, Talise Fugawa from Oregon State,
Tyler Geiton, Jordan Morgan, Troy fott Now, Kingsley, Sue, and
(13:57):
I tie Patrick Paul. I would say that that ten
right there or nine, whatever that is, is the start
of the first I would say top fifty picks in
the draft. You're talking about at least nine guys in
the top fifty, maybe six in the first round. It's
gonna be a top heavy class, but it's there's a
ton of talent at the top.
Speaker 3 (14:18):
So we know, like you said, a ton of talent
at the top. Maybe not what the Patriots are gonna hit.
Maybe we've talked about trading back up into the second
round to maybe or low first round, maybe early second
round is where the Patriots already are, but they probably
not gonna have a chance of those top guys. Maybe
some of the lesser ones though, guys, So let's just
kind of go around. We've all been doing our studying.
We found some guys we like, maybe that like you know,
day two, kind of in that range, Paul, what caught
(14:40):
your eye here on your extensive.
Speaker 4 (14:42):
That showed up to the midterm and hasn't been at
the class all year? You know me in the offensive line,
I don't go as in depth as most and certainly
not anywhere near as in depth as Evan does. I
do love those two guys at the top, and if
for whatever, I just want to throw the caveat out
the ear for whatever reason, they don't love one of
the quarterbacks. You know, these two guys, Alton fashion Now,
(15:06):
fashion Now, those two guys are outstanding prospects. So that
would be the only way you could get them is
if you decided to trade down and maybe you end
up at eight or nine and one of those guys
falls in your lap. I do like the Alabama guy.
I kind of feel like that's a pretty strong tradition
of offensive lineman. They're not without you know, Alex Leatherwooding.
(15:27):
You know, there's there's some misses and whatnot. But I
do like JC Latham, and I felt like the kid
from Georgia Mims is so ridiculously athletic, but doesn't have
a lot of playing experience, So that kind of worries
me a little bit, and I wonder if that causes
him to drop a little bit. A lot of people
feel like he's one of those that Evan just mentioned,
and maybe because very little real starting experience experience in college.
(15:51):
That's a lot like he doesn't have anywhere near the
amount of snaps that most of these other guys come
out of college with. Maybe that helps you. Maybe he
drops down in the the second round and you can
grab him. Doubtful, but I like the athleticism. That's probably
all I got.
Speaker 5 (16:05):
No, that's not bad. I honestly Mims. Start with him
just because you did seven career starts. He only has
eight hundred snaps in college under his belt. Some of
these guys were going to talk about over the next
couple of weeks have fifty career starts in college. So
he's someone that is very very raw, doesn't have a
ton of tape that I definitely think is a profile
(16:27):
that typically does project to the early second round when
you start to talk about guys that just have these
little red flags here and there, nothing major off the
field or anything like that, but hasn't been healthy, didn't
really win the starting job early on in his career.
That's Mims. His opportunity to start as the full time
starter was last year and he injured his ankle and
(16:47):
had to have tight road surgery came back at the
end of the year. So he has someone that has
all oozing with physical talent. If we're talking about a
player that made fifty career starts in college, he's probably
a top ten pick off of raw tools and the
film that it was available, but it's just a very
small sample size. Yeah, Yeah, obviously alt is in my mind,
(17:10):
one of the most can't miss prospects in this draft,
of not the most can't miss prospect in this draft,
because of his athleticism and because of his experience and
really just a very seasoned tackle prospect, someone that just
looks like he's going to walk off the bus on
an NFL field and be a starter right away. He's
extremely athletic, great feet, great posture in his stance, great balance,
(17:34):
really recognizes things happening in front of him post snap movement,
things like that. He's awesome to watch. I mean, he's
one of those guys that I get all excited about
just watching him on film. Fasher now is a little
bit more raw, I would say, but his physical tools
are immense, but he doesn't necessarily have the technique down
as smoothly as alt does, so he could be someone
(17:55):
that would be available in some of those trade down
scenarios that Paul is talking about. I think alts Floor
is probably the fifth or sixth pick in the draft,
depending on who makes those picks and where based off
of trades.
Speaker 4 (18:08):
Before we get Chris going, because I'm curious to hear
you know some of your different guys, some of the
different names. One thing that really stuck stood out to
me when watching like these top I watched the top
eight or ten of them really solid. Almost every one
of them. Pass protection is really really strong. Some of
them are not to me as as good in the
run game, and some of these guys, I think, you know,
(18:31):
Evan likes to talk about the zone schemes, that maybe
they want to be a little bit more athletic and
a little bit mobile. Some of these guys have that
and they're run blocking techniques, a little bit more mobile,
but really impressive. I think you look at all these
top guys that there's almost like no sacks allowed for
any of them.
Speaker 3 (18:46):
Yeah, we don't want to get too carried away because
probably Patriots, unless they trade down, probably not going to
get these top ranked guys. But Chris, we talked a
little bit about some lower round guys or even you know, midday,
what do you who stood out to you?
Speaker 9 (18:56):
Yeah?
Speaker 8 (18:57):
No, I looked at about like seven or so guys,
like say the Patriots go the quarterback ground one or
wider set a round one, you know guys I could
follow a second, third, fourth round. Even just did a
little bit of research. Again seven guys. I mean I
looked at the zag centers of the world Christian mahoganies.
But there are three guys that really stood out to me.
I mean those are more interior alignment. You don't really
need that necessarily this season. You have to see what
(19:18):
Cole Strange can do coming up, but hopefully that'll be
something solid. But yeah, three guys one of them Evant
already mentioned was Kingsley Assumataie. I mean he's a big fella.
He's six four, three hundred twenty six pounds. You know,
he's got great speed, right a five four forty five
four forty yard dash at the combine.
Speaker 2 (19:40):
You know you've seen Evan staring at him at the combine.
Speaker 5 (19:43):
He was just like, okay, So so I'm glad you
brought up Kingsley because that's my guy at thirty four.
So athleticism off the charts. Why cousin Penny Sewell, So
he has it in his blood right and offensive line
is one of those positions. And I know we're we
do this in a lot of other instances like Marvin
Harrison Junior with his dad and Patrick sart Tan years
(20:03):
ago with his dad. But offensive line is a unique position.
And when you have it in your blood like that
is I love that. I love when you yeah, when
you just have that lineage of I've just grew up
with this. You know, I grew up doing past sets
in my backyard. That's what I want to hear from
my offensive lineman. And that's what Kingsley was talking about
(20:23):
doing with his cousin with Penny Sewell, and they are
very similar body types and very similar athleticism. Maybe not
quite as as polished as Penny was coming out of college,
which is why he's gonna go a little bit later
than Penny Sewell did. But in terms of body type athleticism,
he's actually more athletic than Penny sewel is from the
(20:44):
combine testing, so's he's got a loays to go with
his technique a little bit, but in terms of just
raw tools, he's a really good bet. Yeah.
Speaker 8 (20:53):
And one of the stats really stuck out to me
was in twenty twenty two, three hundred and sixty one
snaps to not give up one sack. So that's a
huge number. I mean, Patriots were one of the highest
pressure teams in the league last season, and I mean
went through two quarterbacks and you saw both of them
go down multiple times, and I mean having a protection
like that is huge. One other person, I'm gonna try
(21:16):
my best to pronounce the dame, but Kieran Ahmud Image
I thought I got it earlier. Yeah, yeah, he's from Yale.
I didn't mention m. Kingsley's from BYU, but from Yale.
You know, Kieran another big fella six three twenty six
as well, only one secle out in twenty four games. Again,
(21:41):
good speed on that outside. You can put them really
left or right tackle, whatever you want to choose. That's,
of course you want to expect on one new to
step down to an interior ligneman type role. That's More's bill,
That's what he fits. But I want to know what
you guys think about him.
Speaker 5 (21:55):
Possibly, yeah, yeah, you know, I think that the biggest
thing when you look at him is obviously the jump
up in competition, especially at the offensive line. You want
to see a guy that dominates at that level of
competition if you're gonna draft him early, which you probably
are in maybe the third round, you know, top one hundred.
Certainly I saw some dominant streaks, but it wasn't as
(22:19):
dominant as maybe some of the other lower level guys
I've seen in years past. But he's definitely got the tools.
I think one thing that works against him sometimes those
guys that are really really tall, it kind of works
against him in the leverage and pad level situation. So
he's got to get some more flexibility and be able
to get down. But in terms of raw tools, definitely
fits the mold, and you hope it just translates to
(22:41):
the next level. I wish I'd seen him at the
Senior Bowl, but he either wasn't there or had an
injury or something like that. But it's it's tough sometimes
to project those guys to the next level. But every
once in a while, you see a guy that just
looks like a man amongst boys at you know, a
lower level IVY League D two whatever it is, and he,
I would say, fits that Bill.
Speaker 2 (23:01):
Yeah, two more, Chris, you got who too? I got
one more?
Speaker 7 (23:04):
One more? I one more?
Speaker 8 (23:05):
Well, I guess I got two more. But this one,
uh one of my favorite, one of the more I
guess interesting people that I studied. Javon Foster out in
the zoo. Uh again, another big fella. And there's two
offensive tackles that are in the upcoming draft that ranked
uh PFF over eighty in both categories pass blocking and
(23:27):
run blocking. And it was Joe Walt and Javon Foster.
And those are two huge statistical focuses there. And you know,
somebody with that type of stature and that type of
excuse me ability could go a long way with this
offensive line.
Speaker 5 (23:44):
Yes, he was a Senior Bowl guy. Definitely a riser
on Senior Bowl week and just a maller.
Speaker 7 (23:50):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (23:50):
I think, you know, a little bit smaller than I
was expecting terms of weight. He's like six five three twenty,
but it reminded me a lot of like a Marcus
Cannon type of Patriots right tackle. Bit more stocky guard build,
but definitely has the play strength. And you could see
him just getting on double teams with the kid from Yukon,
who I'm banging on his name right now, the guard
and those two guys just were moving the line of
(24:11):
scrimmage together, yeah, Haynes. Yeah, And they were really good
down there in Mobile. And I look at him, I
look at a guy like Christian Jones from Texas to
as maybe guys that could slip into the fourth round
there for the Patriots at the top of Day three
when they're on the clock, as you know, good prospects
at that spot.
Speaker 3 (24:28):
I'm gonna throw out four Deuce's mid round guys, mostly
from the combine, but Tyland Grabil was the number one
athletic score from UCF. Really athletic tackle is you know,
developmental guys. Julian Pearl another one thirty five and an
eighth inch Arms liked him a little bit from Illinois,
good link. Walter Rouse from Oklahoma another guy big, got
the size, you know, just needs to develop a little bit.
(24:50):
And finally Kid Wallace from Penn State, another highly athletic
guy that developmental, you know. And I think that's I
don't know, I don't know where they're going to land
in that like early second round, late first maybe if
they get somebody in there, but it just feels like
a double dip kind of position. And one of these
guys who has a lot of athleticism that you could
probably at least develop for the future, so you're not
getting back into this problem where you have no tackles.
Speaker 5 (25:12):
Yeah, yeah, I would say the only other ones that
we haven't mentioned just quickly. Patrick Paul from Houston is
a good second round target for the Patriots. Made forty
forty five career starts at left tackle at Houston, so
his experience, I'm not sure if he's necessarily going to
get significantly better. He's kind of tapped out physically, but
definitely someone that could step in and maybe play year
one just because of how much college experience he had.
(25:34):
And then you're really talking about guys that if they
did decide to trade back into the back end of
the first round. You know Tyler Geitton for example, you know,
is he someone that you would want to go up
and get Those types of players are there? You know
Troy fought now from Washington, he passed the thresholds for
tackles in terms of arm light. That was a question
mark with him coming into the combine. Maybe a guy
(25:56):
that would be you know, twenty five twenty to twenty
five range that you could sneak back up in the
first round and grab two. So it really is one
of those positions that early on, if they want that
day one impact starter, they gotta jump on the parade.
We talk about this all the time because they're just
gonna go. So once they're off the board and you
start getting into some of these other guys that Duce
mentioned or the Yale Kid or whatever, you're starting to
(26:19):
get into more developmental guys that are probably not gonna
be rookie starters.
Speaker 4 (26:22):
I just wanted to throw and I don't remember if
Evan had this in your list at the beginning.
Speaker 2 (26:27):
The Duke Kid Barton.
Speaker 4 (26:31):
More so, because I thought he was really and I'm
still sticking into the old patriotsing the versatility played some
center played, some left tackle. Not a lot of guys
play like interior and then tackle. So you know, you
think Mike go when you you know a guy with
some versatility inside out. Yeah, not one of the top
rated guys, but maybe a guy on day two.
Speaker 2 (26:50):
I put Dominic Puny in there too. Another guy play
a bunch of different spots.
Speaker 5 (26:54):
Graham Barton is Yes, so Graham Barton projects as a
guard at the next level. But somebody that could back
up attack almost like a different player than on Wenny.
But just say idea that he could back up drawing
stuff that you like, Yeah, could you know pin and poll?
You know that kind of stuff that runs a pin pole?
You want pin poll, you want zone. I'm telling you,
Kingsley sum I Tie is the guy. That guy you
(27:16):
watch him on tape. You watch him get into space,
get out of his stance, first step, All that stuff checks.
Speaker 4 (27:21):
All So adding that into my word dictionary, this quickness
is just so which part yeah, Kingsley, Oh yeah, the
whole thing.
Speaker 2 (27:30):
Well, there we go, guys.
Speaker 3 (27:31):
We did the first positional preview here. Offensive line a
lot of names, huge need for the Patriots. Now. Evan
also had a chance to talk to Brandon Thorn, who
gives his expert opinion on a bunch of these guys
as well.
Speaker 2 (27:41):
So trying to cover all the bases here.
Speaker 3 (27:43):
Check out what Evan end and Brandon had to say.
Speaker 5 (27:45):
All right, everybody, I'm very excited to join, but be
joined by there we go. All right, been a long day.
Be joined by Brandon Thorn, he writes for a Trench Warfare.
Give him a subscription on there, and also Bleacher Report
and Brandon, I use your Bleacher Report scouting reports all
the time on the offensive line. I always love looking
at your insight and your rankings and everything like that.
(28:07):
So that's a great resource. All you got to do
is google Joe all to Bleacher Report, Joel Brandon Thorn,
and his full scouting report will pop right up on
your screen for you to read about these guys. And
you know way more about all these technical terms and
things like that than I do. So it's a lot
of fun to read though. So thanks so much for
doing this and happy to have you here.
Speaker 9 (28:28):
Yeah, man, I'm always happy to talk with you and yeah,
excited to be here, So thanks for inviting me.
Speaker 5 (28:35):
No problem, No problem. I talked to you at the
combine briefly, and I probably kept you for a little
bit too long, just asking you questions about every single
Patriots offensive lineman and where they fit on the roster.
So I did want to start really quickly off the top.
They obviously resigned Mike on Wenu, big move for them
this offseason in free agency. Where do you see him
(28:58):
fitting into this equation in the Alex Van Pelt offense.
There's a lot of conversations about if he fits at
tackle in a more zone based scheme.
Speaker 9 (29:07):
Yeah, I mean, I just think even kind of regardless
of scheme. I know there's probably some nuances there, you know,
to where he's a little bit better fit at this
position in that scheme, But just generally, I think at
right guard is the spot that you want to put
him in pretty much all schemes and you'll probably get,
at the end of the day, the best version of him.
Speaker 7 (29:28):
Uh. You know, we talked about this as.
Speaker 9 (29:29):
The combine, and I think his contract kind of alludes
to more of a guard as well, based on you know,
kind of what I know at least I'm not a
contract expert, but just the fact that he can do
both though, is you know, extremely valuable, and it just
adds flexibility to how you build stuff out.
Speaker 7 (29:47):
And then if stuff goes wrong with injuries or whatever,
you know, you.
Speaker 9 (29:49):
Have a guy like that, it's just adds to his value.
But I think when you watch his film over the
last several years, uh, you know, it's with a highlight
on last your in particular, he's clearly better at garden
than tackle and that stems from pass protection, you know,
where I guess in a Van Pelt scheme, maybe that
(30:10):
could be mitigated to a degree with you know, whether
it's RPOs or play action, you know, being a run
first offense, things like that. But on an island, you know,
the range or lack thereof to protect the corner against
you know, high side rushes from wide alignments from good
or better players. I mean, it's just shaky. So you
(30:33):
can kind of mitigate that a little bit inside and
get the best of him and allow his play strength
and his size and his power you know, to really shine.
And I just think it's interesting because CD so you know,
was there and I thought him and so in the
run game with on one would tackle you know, that
was awesome. But passpro with both of them, you know,
(30:56):
with shaky understandably, so it's so being a rookie, you know,
day three pick, but now that you've got a CORPS
four in there, it tells me, you know, maybe they
are thinking more guards. So I don't know, it's it's
still kind of up in the air and there's variables there,
but you know, I like the depth on the interior.
Speaker 7 (31:12):
I think overall though too.
Speaker 5 (31:13):
Yeah, I would get into a Corps for but we
really do want to focus on the draft specifically on
this show. So I'll get into some of the draft
guys and I just start at the top. I obviously
love Joe Alt. I think we all can see the
talent there. It's not maybe the most popular pick among
Patriots fans to take a tackle early on in the
draft over a quarterback or Marvin Harrison Junior or something
(31:36):
like that. But what makes Joe Walt such a great
prospect in your mind?
Speaker 9 (31:41):
Yeah, just to you know, piggyback on that, I think
ideally you trade down in draft jolt, but yeah, if
you do pick him at three, I mean I still think, Yeah,
the part that makes him, you know, so appealing is
I think you look at the fact that he is
so young.
Speaker 7 (31:56):
You know, he's like a month or.
Speaker 9 (31:57):
Two younger than even Olu, you know, for Seanna from State,
who is considered a very young player. So I think
they just they both turned just twenty one, are about
to turn twenty one, so they're gonna be twenty one
for the duration of the rookie year. And the fact
that he is so young and so polished with his technique,
specifically as a run blocker. That's the thing when you
(32:18):
watch this film that really jumped out to me. For
a guy being almost six ' nine, you know, a
legit six ' eight, you know, three twenty plus, the
leverage that he plays with in the run game is
just tremendous. Like he's a Notre Dame offensive lineman personified.
It's just he's six ' eight, long arms, and really athletic,
and you know, I just so I love that he
(32:40):
has that part of his game that is really gonna,
I think, create a high floor for him as a player.
And then the pass pro the traits are certainly there.
I mean, he's good too. He's productive as a pass
protector in terms of blocking guys with good technique and
you know, having the athletic ability to certainly do it.
Not the most powerful guy you know that is in
(33:03):
the draft or you know, or anything like that. He
plays a lot like Jake Matthews, but he's in like
Nate Soldier's body. That's kind of like what I've seen
from him, you know, since I wrote his report, you know,
in December or whatever it was, So yeah, I think
he kind of confirmed. They tests very similarly to to
Nate Solder coming out of Colorado.
Speaker 7 (33:23):
It's just I think he's a higher quality prospect.
Speaker 9 (33:25):
Than he was, and you know, I just, yeah, it's
tough to poke holes in his game.
Speaker 7 (33:31):
Aside from saying that he's not the most powerful guy.
Speaker 5 (33:33):
Yeah, you mentioned Nate Solder. Obviously everybody here is familiar
with Nate Soldier's game. And the one thing I remember
talking to to Scarnekia and some of the coaches about
with Nate Solder is that he was honestly almost too tall,
where you know, his lower half was in flexible enough,
and sometimes leverage and stuff like that was an issue.
But you just kind of perfectly said about how that's
(33:56):
not really a concern with joll because of how flexible
he is in his lowers to be able to get
down and create leverage.
Speaker 9 (34:03):
Yeah, that's that's the part that impressed me more than
anything watching him on film. I mean, I was pretty
floored by his run blocking on film because when you
see him in his stance on film, you could tell
he's huge.
Speaker 7 (34:16):
Just he's just an enormous dude.
Speaker 9 (34:18):
So typically those guys, when they get out of their stance,
especially post contact in the second, third, fourth phase of
the rum block, the pads just rise and they gradually
lose leverage. They get to spots quick but then in
terms of sustaining and finishing, it gets real dicey really quickly.
But for him, his ability to keep his pads down,
(34:38):
you know, bend at the ankle's knees and hips, sustain.
Speaker 7 (34:41):
Move his feet. He has a good feel you.
Speaker 9 (34:44):
Know for body positioning on blocks, and he plays a
great effort. He's a great finisher. So his ability to
sustain and finish rum blocks at a guy his size
is really I think the most rare part of his evaluation,
like what he offers, you know, and so yeah, it's
it's it's quite a bit different than they soldier, uh,
(35:06):
you know, in how it manifests on the field.
Speaker 7 (35:08):
You know, their skill set.
Speaker 5 (35:09):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely, before we move on to the Day
two guys, just quickly. It probably won't be the Patriots
that take Olu Fashanu, but maybe in a trade down
scenario or something like that, it ends up being more
of a conversation. Let's say they trade with, you know,
someone like at eleven, the Minnesota Vikings for example, or
something maybe more of Ashani's range. What do you see
with him that is he as pro ready to you
(35:32):
as Alt is? And you do you think that both
those guys are plug and play Day one franchise left tackles.
Speaker 9 (35:40):
I do think that Olu is a plug and play starter.
You know, I gave him a grade that suggests he's
a you know, a really good starter right away now,
you know, in terms of being as pro ready or
polished as Joe Walt, I don't. I don't think that's
the case. And so you know, with Olu, like I
(36:01):
think the thing that his kind of trump card, you know,
if you will, as a prospect is his pass protection
ability and just how natural his movements are in past protection,
getting out of his stance, mirroring guys, recovering, anchoring, utilizing
his length.
Speaker 7 (36:17):
In a really nice way.
Speaker 9 (36:18):
With independent hands, and you saw that two years ago
when he stepped onto the field for the first time
in college and just how natural he was, and that
pretty much carried through for all twenty one or whatever
starts that he had aside from the Ohio State game
this year. You really can't poke many holes in his
game as a pass protector aside from that one tape,
(36:40):
because I pretty much watched him all and I think
that's the case now. Run blocking is a different story.
He's much more raw there than Joe Walt, although you
did see progress this year after that Ohio State game
in particular, the rest of the season were his best
tapes as a run blocker. He really kind of flipped
(37:00):
switch after that game. And I remember talking to him
about it a little bit as well during the time,
because I had a question about a clip against Ohio
State that he, you know, answered for me, and he
basically said, like, you know, yeah, I know that was
my worst game, and you know, he was highly motivated
to correct that and he did so. Just the fact
(37:20):
that he and what I mean by that is a
run blocker, like his ability to or struggles to sustain
and finish blocks, letting guys get off of him a
little early, across his face and just kind of fall
off stuff a little prematurely.
Speaker 7 (37:33):
That was kind of.
Speaker 9 (37:33):
Prevalent throughout his career, I thought, and you just always
wanted a little bit more physicality and just control from him.
But then, like I said, after that game, he showed it.
So that was really encouraging to me that that's just
the fact that you could see it.
Speaker 7 (37:48):
Now.
Speaker 9 (37:48):
It does need to be more consistent and things like that,
but yeah, it's kind of an inverse thing. Like Joe Walt,
you're getting a really really polished, high end run blocker
and a good pass protector, and then Olu, I think
you're getting a really really polished past protector and maybe
like a below average to average rum blocker. But again
they're so young and all that, I would expect those
things to improve, yeah, at least a little bit.
Speaker 5 (38:11):
So yeah, yeah, two really good prospects there. I'm gonna
skip over a group that I feel like is in
a weird spot for the Patriots. You know, the Talisa Fugawa's,
the J. C. Lathams like those guys probably going to
go somewhere in between the Patriots two picks. So let's
go to the top of Day two at thirty four,
which is they take a quarterback at three, then thirty
(38:32):
four is probably the pick that's going to be earmarked
for a tackle. One would think, who are some of
the guys that a you could see falling to that spot,
but be more importantly that you like on film.
Speaker 9 (38:44):
Yeah, so yeah, so Latham would be my tackle three.
My tackle four is Marius Mims, you know. So I'd
assume those guys are gone, and then you know five
and six Tyler Geydon and Kingsley Swim, Mattia from Byu.
Speaker 7 (38:59):
Guidens probably gone, Sue and Matia there.
Speaker 9 (39:01):
I would say it probably starts at Sue and Matia
as a guy who could potentially be there, uh at
your pick at thirty four.
Speaker 7 (39:09):
So he's a guy I do like.
Speaker 9 (39:11):
I mean, I gave him, you know, a let me
just get the potential impact starter. So like a low
end second round pick, I'm sure you know that's gonna
get a bump, as tackles do. He's gonna probably be
a late first round pick. But there is just more
of this sort of rawness that we've spoke about. But
it's it's pretty much in all areas of his game,
(39:31):
I think, as opposed to just one uh there, there's
a lot to work with there in terms of physical traits, height, weight, length,
frame build, athletic ability, the way he moves, it's natural
for him. You could tell he's a former five star recruit.
You know, he's cousins with Pine Sewel and trains with him,
and you know, chances are he's going to develop at
(39:54):
least into a solid starter. If not, you know, he
could potentially be really good. Who knows, But he came
out as a retro sophomore, you know, so he's just
young and raw, but it'll be really interesting to see.
Speaker 7 (40:06):
So he's one.
Speaker 9 (40:07):
Guy that I would say would be available and actually
kind of add value, have value at that pick. After that,
I mean, I have a lot of tackles that are
kind of projected inside but could play inside that could
be available there. The first one that comes to mind
is probably Jordan Morgan from Arizona, who's you know, he's
(40:28):
a big, strong guy. Came back from a torn acl
really quickly this past year, less than a year, I
think like nine months, and he started the whole year,
which was impressive. But he has kind of a reoccurring
issue in pass protection.
Speaker 7 (40:42):
That leads to me to believe.
Speaker 9 (40:44):
That it'd probably be best that he kicks inside, although
I'm sure and I've heard teams are gonna view him
as a tackle. But yeah, you know, those two guys,
if I had to bet top of the second round
to play tackle, Jordan Morgan and Kings of Suwamatia would
probably be my best bets there.
Speaker 5 (41:02):
What do you think about Patrick Paul from Houston? Because
I feel like he's always projected a little bit after
those two guys that you mentioned, but a little bit
before the next wave of guys is sort of that
tweeer on Day two.
Speaker 9 (41:15):
Yeah, so I have more of a third round grade
on Patrick Paul, but certainly, like you know, traits wise,
you got to start there. You know, he's you know,
six seven, six ' eight. I think he's six seven,
like three thirty three twenty three thirty you know, elite length,
you know, thirty six plus in charms and he's really
strong actually when he actually gets his hands inside. But
(41:37):
that's the problem. He struggles to kind of get his
hands inside of guys. He's very wide and kind of
a little uh, you know, I don't want to say lazy,
but just inconsistent with his hand placement I think is
probably the best term, and that just creates a lot
of leverage issues Guys getting inside of him.
Speaker 7 (41:58):
You know, driving him back.
Speaker 9 (42:00):
Saw it at Senior Bowl one on ones, where you
see it on tape all over the place.
Speaker 7 (42:03):
I mean, it's just it's up and down. But you
love the size, you love the strength.
Speaker 9 (42:08):
And the thing that I probably like most about him
that's kind of most surprising with the guy with his
all that stuff I just said, is his competitive toughness
is very, very good. He's physical tone setter, and you
don't get that a lot at tackle, you know, I
don't think especially left.
Speaker 7 (42:24):
So you know, I think he's a better.
Speaker 9 (42:26):
Prospect than his brother was coming out of Tulsa a
couple of years ago, Chris Paul. And you know, he's
working with Duke Mannyweather at Oil Masterminds, which is encouraging
because most of his issues are technique based. I think
it would be a little bit of a reach there,
but I think he could he could feasibly go there,
you know, I think that's definitely possible.
Speaker 5 (42:46):
Yeah, So before I let you go, just some some
day three sleepers a couple of guys, you know from
the Senior Bowl, Christian Jones, h Javon Foster might be
you know, early day three if they do slip into
day three. Those are two guys I caught my mind,
but you go, you know, a lot deeper than I do,
so or any sleepers that that you like on day
three for the Pats.
Speaker 9 (43:06):
Okay, day three, so we'll assume that Roger Rosengard and
Blake Fisher are gone. Yeah after them, Yeah, Javon Foster,
you get into that. The print there, the Yale kid
is intriguing as a Day three guy to me. Yeah,
Cayden Wallace maybe you know these guys. You know, if
(43:26):
I had to pick a favorite pure tackle out of
those guys, it would definitely be Javon Foster. And that's
that's because of first, I think the improvement that he
showed from twenty twenty two to twenty twenty three, because
I watched him last year thinking he could potentially come out,
and I just you know, I'm glad he went back,
and I thought he played with a lot more control
(43:50):
this year. He's not as kind of wild and you know,
he's a heavy two hand strike guy in pass protection.
He tries to kind of kill guys with his punch
and I can get him into trouble. He kind of
reeled that back a little bit, played with more patients.
Uh So for him to show that was nice and
then you know, had a really nice Senior.
Speaker 7 (44:06):
Bowl as well. Yeah, not perfect.
Speaker 9 (44:09):
But you know good and uh, you know, I just
think he's also a guy traits guy for sure. In
terms of you know, high weight, build, length, I would
say athletic ability with him is uh, you know, maybe
like solid, you know to good.
Speaker 7 (44:24):
Not a bad athlete, not a great athlete, but good. Uh.
Speaker 9 (44:27):
He's coming from a heavy RPO system at Missouri, which
you know kind of protected him a little bit in
past protection, which wouldn't be an issue if he's doing
that in the pros. But he's you know, that's why
he's a Day three guy because you just don't feel
great relying on him. But yeah, if you're picking a
guy in day three, he kind of reminds me of
(44:49):
Sean Coleman coming out of years back from Auburn. You know,
he's he's that kind of guy who he has started
level size, length and athletic ability. But you're going to
need to be patient there and you know, ideally he's
part of a rotation.
Speaker 5 (45:04):
Yeah, definitely somebody that senior bull riser columns all over
the place after mobile people mover. That's what I noticed
about him was his play strength, and I did a
great job on those double team blocks and things like
that in those drills.
Speaker 9 (45:18):
Yeah. Yeah, he has power at the point of attack
for sure, it's just after the fact if guys challenge him,
he gets out leveraged pretty quickly and he's kind of
late to adjust. He over extends his body control isn't great,
but yeah, I mean double teams is a great opportunity
to just unload on somebody with help and not have
(45:39):
to rely on It's more about immediate displacement as opposed
to you know, a base block you know where you know,
it's a lot different in terms of, you know, after
the point of attack. So yeah, there's certain areas where
you know, I think he has a lot of appeal
and could help right away. It's just you know, he
just needs some work, you know, with technique.
Speaker 5 (46:00):
Yeah, absolutely, he's Brandon Thorne. As you can tell those
everything there is to know about the offensive line and
off offensive line guru, you can find him at Trench Warfare.
Please subscribe there to read Brandon stuff. He does free agency,
he does the draft, a lot of great write ups
on all these guys, and obviously on Bleacher Report you
can read his scouting reports on all the draft prospects
(46:20):
in the twenty twenty four NFL Draft. Thanks for joining us, Brandon.
Speaker 7 (46:23):
Yeah, happy to do it, guys, thanks for having me.
Speaker 3 (46:25):
All right, that's going to do it for this episode
of Patriots Draft Countdown.
Speaker 2 (46:28):
Will be back next week.
Speaker 3 (46:29):
It's going to be a busy week for us. Evan
your head now to do some pro days. He's going
to get an up close look at both UNC and
Georgia right right, SSU might apologize, I'm going to be
I'm going to be at the owners meetings, so we'll
see maybe if some deals get done. So we'll be
back next week though, taking a look at the secondary.
Speaker 2 (46:47):
And don't worry, all will be here. He's got covered
Popular Podcasts
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com