Conversations Beyond the Echo Chamber

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For the final installment of our pandemic pedagogy roundtable discussions, Gina and Tom sit down with Samuel Chen and Kelly Allen to talk about how the present political atmosphere in the U.S. is impacting the way we teach. Listen in as they discuss strategies for addressing potentially polarizing topics and attitudes in the classroom and why these sometimes difficult conversations are exactly what we need to create an engaged and critical thinking citizenry. In our segment on self-care, it appears that adult beverages are again a popular remedy for dealing with a long day. Please be sure to subscribe to, rate, and review the podcast and follow us on Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram @pedagogyagogo.

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Episode Transcript

Gina Turner (00:00):
1234 Pedagogy a go go.

Unknown (00:07):
Pedagogy Go go go.

Gina Turner (00:12):
Hello, and welcome to Pedagogy-a-go-go, a podcast
about college faculty sharingwhat happens in their classrooms
and why? This is season three,Episode Three: Conversations
Beyond the Echo Chamber. Andwe're your hosts Gina Turner,
and Tom O'Connor.

Tom O'Connor (00:33):
Well, welcome everyone to Pedagogy-a-go-go. We
are 3 for 3 in our new threepart series, where we've been
tackling some current issues andhow they're affecting us in the
classroom. For our thirdpodcast, we are welcoming back
Kelly Allen and of course, mywonderful co host Gina Turner,
and who I'm getting to meet forthe first time Professor Samuel

(00:55):
Chen, who has taught at NCC in apart time capacity since 2018,
and this semester came on as afull time faculty member in
political science. Welcome, Sam.
It's so nice to meet you. I'm soexcited to have you part of our
conversation today. I also feeloutgunned and outclassed,
because you're a politicalscience professor, teaching in
these crazy times. And we havechosen for our topic today, the

(01:18):
teaching in our classrooms inaccordance with the current
political landscape crazy, suchas it is. So as a means kicking
us off. Sam, can you can youtell us a little bit about
yourself? Because our listenersknow Kelly and Gina and me all
too well?

Sam Chen (01:35):
Well, first, Tom, thank you for having me. And
Kelly, Gina always, always goodto be with you, all of you. And
so as you said, Tom, my name isSam and I've been here at NCC
since 2018. and honored to servein the full time capacity now.
My background has been inpolitics it's honestly a huge

(01:55):
blessing. I'm the child ofimmigrants, and grew up paycheck
to paycheck and had a careerwith a front row seat to our
nation's democracy. And it's oneof those Made in America stories
that I've just been trulyblessed to live and study
political science and philosophyin school and ended up working
in the House of Representatives,and then working over in the US

(02:17):
Senate, and then jumped over tothe campaign side or as we say
in government, the dark side,and did the campaign world for a
little bit and launched my ownmy own consulting firm about
five years ago, which I stillown today. And we do a lot of
campaign strategy, communicationstrategies and public policy
advising for different membersof Congress, governors, and all

(02:40):
the way to local leaders. And soit's a lot of fun. And outside
of that I host a news journaltalk show called Face the Issues
where - think Meet the Press,except it's 12 issues and the
President's Twitter feed with,you know, 30 panelists! It's one

(03:00):
issue a week. And we reallytried to get after it and take
it from the 30,000 foot ideasdown to how does this impact my
neighbor? And why is this soimportant for us practically. So
it's a lot of fun getting tobring all that experience into
the classroom.

Gina Turner (03:14):
That's great, Sam.
And you know, one of the thingsI always tell prospective
students during orientation isone of the things I love about
community colleges is that wehave people like you who
actually worked in their fieldfor years, or continue to work
in their, the field that they'reteaching. So they really got,
you know, boots on the ground.
They really, they're not justtalking to talk, they're walking

(03:37):
the walk. And so what a greatboon for your students for you
to be able to talk specificallyabout your work in the House, in
the Senate. And in in thispolitical world, unlike me, who
basically spent most of my lifecompletely oblivious to
politics. So, how is that - Ialmost feel like it must be

(03:59):
really fun, if fun is the rightword for you to be tackling this
chaotic, you know, unprecedentedpolitical atmosphere right now,
in your particular classes. Canyou say a little bit about the
classes you're teaching and howyou're incorporating, you know,
the "now" into those classes?

Sam Chen (04:19):
Gina, that's fine. You say that, you know, I wrote I
just had a book come out thisyear called "13 Minutes", and it
deals with the 2016 election.
And in the introduction, youknow, I say these are lessons I
learned from the craziestelection in history and then
when publishing. I'm thinking,this is outdated. We're walking
into the craziest election inhistory now in 2020. I here at
Northampton, I have theprivilege of teaching a number

(04:42):
of courses, everything frominternational relations to
American government. And what Ithink the challenge of
discussing the current politicalatmosphere in class is not a lot
people think the challenge isthe diversity of opinion in the
class and that's not really it,I think the diversity of - I
think diversity in general, isour strength, not our weakness.

(05:03):
I think that diversity of ideas,racial diversity, gender
diversity, socio economicdiversity at a school like
Northampton where our studentsrange from high school students
to adults, the diversity in age,I think that's our strength. I
think the great challenge isunderstanding government before
we engage politically, I alwaystell our students Hey, this is a

(05:27):
political science class. Firstand foremost, government stands
on two legs. The first istheory. So we understand the
theories of things likeliberalism, federalism, and
theory should lead itself tolaw. Law is the practical
application of our theory, thoseare the two legs government
stands on. Only when we getthat, can we begin to properly
discuss politics. And that'sprobably the biggest challenge.

(05:50):
The fun part, though, to yourpoint, Gina, is you can pull
almost any political fight rightnow, and bring it back into that
conversation on theory and law.
And so a lot of the writing thatI do is trying to take, for
example, ideas in the federalistpapers in the Federalist 10.
James Madison says, How shouldthe country - How should the

(06:13):
government deal with divisions,now he's talking about a fight
between those who own lands, andthose who don't own land?

Gina Turner (06:20):
Mm hmm.

Sam Chen (06:21):
That's not our fight today. But the idea is, the
pragmatic ideas still apply. Andhe says, look, you could remove
the cause, right? If you justtook out the other person,
there's no more debate. Butyou're not gonna have a country
much longer. Or you could learnto mitigate and control the
impact. That's hard, it requiresyou to sit down with the other

(06:43):
side. Because that's the onlyway we can maintain our
government. And so even thoughthat issue itself isn't
prevalent today, I mean,certainly what the gist of what
he's talking about is, and soit's really neat to build pull
any political debate today backinto those principles that our
country is founded on.

Gina Turner (07:01):
Hmm, yeah, that's a great point is that it's almost
like you have to understand therules of the game, to then be
able to talk about the game tothen be able to apply it to how
those rules are, or are notplaying out in the current
situation. That's, that's reallygreat. That's great insight. I'm
going to turn to Tom, you know,because you're teaching in a

(07:22):
kind of humanities, socialsciences arena, like myself, how
are you tackling the currentatmosphere in your classes?

Tom O'Connor (07:32):
It's so funny, because I'm listening to Sam's
answer, I'm almost doing it thesame way. And I feel like I've
become a different Professor onthe one hand, because Sam, you
were speaking to the mechanismsof government, which I will
admit that I don't know nearlyas much about as you do. And so
I don't approach it throughthat. But I do approach it, as

(07:53):
you were saying, through thelenses of history and theory. So
you know, across the subjectmatter, I teach, you know, I'm
fortunate enough to be able toaddress topics like racism,
economic disparities, religion,sexuality, gender politics. And
so I increasingly find myselfworking in this current moment,
as a history professor,constantly trying to
contextualize what we're seeingin light of history, maybe not

(08:15):
the history of our government,per se, but in the history of
the civil rights movement, youknow, in the history of the
politics of the 60s and 70s, andthe social politics of the 60s
and 70s. From a theoryperspective, you know, it's
interesting, and Kelly, I thinkyou'll appreciate this. But I
think a lot about the news andthe way we absorb information,

(08:37):
and to some extent,theoretically, my classes are
trying to address the currentbipartisan antagonism that we're
seeing these kind of news echochambers that foment those
divisions further, as a kind ofnatural extension of the
postmodern movement, whereessentially, the construction of
truth and relativism haveessentially been so far as I see

(08:59):
it kind of increasinglyweaponized over the last three
decades. You know, I'm terrifiedto some degree that, that we
increasingly feel an act asthough we live in a Post truth
world. And I don't know how toaddress a Post truth world or
society in my classroom. So whatI've been trying to do is allow
that topic itself to hopefullybecome the kind of basis for

(09:20):
like a renewed discourse ininquiry. You know, I haven't
taught - and so fans of TheMatrix hold on to your hats! -
you know, I haven't taught JohnBaudrillards Simulation and
Simulacrum in forever, but Ifeel like I need to dust it off.
Although I can't tell if I wantto dust it off, because it
spells out something veryspecific in our culture, or
because I desperately want torefute it, because I feel like

(09:41):
this idea of a Post truth worldwas really, you know, well
articulated in that essay. Soyou know, and The Matrix was
very inspired by this essay, andanyone who's heard, was it
Morpheus saying, "Welcome to thedesert to the real". You know,
that's a quote from the JohnBaudrillard essay. But The
Matrix is kind of a really cheapreading of it where the whole

(10:03):
point of The Matrix is we livein this fake world that we need
to get to a real world. JohnBaudrillard's point was we
create fake worlds like DisneyWorld, so that when we leave
them, I think the quote is "intothe concentration camp of the
parking lot" is the way hedescribes it after, you know,
leaving Disneyland, that thewhole experience has been to
make us believe that the worldwe're going into is real. And I

(10:27):
no longer feel in touch withthat reality. Right, you know
what I mean, in Baudrillard it'sassumed that there is no
reality. This is the idea ofthis postmodern, Post truth
movement. And so I think part ofthe work I'm doing with my
students is asking them aboutthe media, the news that they're
consuming, I'm assigning andasking them to watch the news.
So whereas I might teach a shortstory, and usually I would be

(10:51):
assigning secondary articleswith what people might have said
about that story. I'm now justteaching that story and saying,
read this article about, youknow, from salon.com, or, watch,
there's a report tonight on CNNat 10. I'd like you guys to tune
into that, I think it's going tospeak to this story that we're
going to be reading tomorrow inclass, mostly because I

(11:13):
desperately want our students tobe consuming the news. So now
I'm just assigning it so thatthey do.

Gina Turner (11:19):
Yeah, and also seeing it contextualized in the
material that you're you'reusing, and that framework of,
you know, this is not a newphenomenon going on today. It
has happened in the past,historically, and people have
written about it, and donethinking about it, which is...

Tom O'Connor (11:36):
although I feel like it is a new moment, that's
what I don't understand is thatthat's why I think I keep trying
to bring the history into it.
Because as we've seen, you know,it's not just Msnbc versus Fox
anymore, we're seeingincreasingly far right news
mediums, and the division, ifyou will, of ideas, everyone can
now go into their echo chamberof choice, that's going to give

(11:56):
them the reality that they wantto hear. And so as you were
saying, Sam, I love my studentscoming in with that diversity of
opinion. I just try to get from- but they're not necessarily
living in a diverse News Worldyet. So that space of the
classroom is about thembeginning to try to talk across
those different divides, if youwill, those different realities.

Gina Turner (12:19):
Sure. Yeah. So Kelly, I feel like with the
class that you're a teaching, ifthere is a particular issue, of
course, that you're addressingin your classes, which of
course, has to do with food,and, help me out with the name
of the class that you'reteaching right now, Kelly?

Kelly Allen (12:38):
Well, the class that I'm teaching now is nature
of the environment, which is acultural investigation of the
relationship between human andnon human nature. But yet,
you're right, like it is fooddriven, because a lot of my
scholarship is based on theseinvestigations of food and

(13:03):
climate. But it's reallyinteresting to hear what you're
saying, Sam and Tom, and it's, Igotta commend you on your
bravery. Because like, you seemto be approaching this very head

(13:23):
on and in a deliberate fashion,where my strategy has mostly
been kind of the sneak attackwhere we don't talk about
politics or any kind of the hotbutton issues at least, like not

(13:47):
right away. So this pastsemester, my students they read
a novel by Ruth Ozeki called AllOver Creation. And it's a piece
of fiction, but it is a bookthat calls into question and
criticizes our industrial foodsystem. But there's -the main

(14:13):
character the protagonist inthis novel is, is Yumi Fuller,
and she is the daughter of anIdaho potato farmer and his war
bride, so he fought in theSecond World War, when he came
home, he had his - he wasmarried to Momoko, and she's of

(14:36):
Japanese descent, but Yumi isliving in this very white
conservative area in Idaho inthe 70s. And she doesn't look
like most of the folks in hercommunity. And just the, I

(14:58):
guess, biracial relationship ofher parents is something that
really kind of I don't want tosay that stirs controversy, but
it's something that the town ofLiberty Falls, talks about. But
in this novel, and you know, I,I apologize for the spoilers.
But she is raped by her, I thinkit's her ninth grade history

(15:23):
teacher. She is subject to allkinds of racialized abuse from
the community. And then she isessentially shunned by the rock
in her life, which is herfather. So that at the age of
14, she runs away from home, andshe's gone from Liberty falls

(15:45):
for, like 25 years. But like, Iwon't get into the whole gist of
what she does in those 25 years,but it's effing amazing. Like
what she accomplishes, like shegoes from living on the streets
and having to sell herself toeat and to get shelter, to she

(16:06):
has three, beautiful children.
And they're all children thatshe has, through choice she
moves to a place that she feelsis paradise in Hawaii, and
starts her own business, she'steaching and then her parents
get sick, and then her friendfrom high school calls her over

(16:27):
and is like, "Look, you got totake care of your parents, you
know, you need to help out". Soshe's like, brought back into
this environment that caused somuch trauma in her life. And
then this is kind of like wherethe sneak attack comes in.
Because the - and please pardonfor this long explanation. But I
swear there's a point to it. Butin our class discussions, the

(16:49):
students were really treatingYumi terribly, because her three
children all have threedifferent fathers. And this, you
know, was by choice, she, shewanted to raise her kids on her
own. But when she comes back,she drinks, she smokes. But then

(17:09):
she's confronted with her rapistfrom that period of time, her
dad still treats her like shit.
And she's just been subjected onthis, and no one bothers to take
the time to be like, "Hey, Yumi?
Are you okay? You know, how arethings going for you?" And then
so what this allowed us to dowas to talk about the trauma,

(17:30):
that she feels, the trauma inthis novel is something that was
never really addressed by thecharacters in that and then you
could kind of see how that then,radiated into my students vision
of this text. So then this iswhere I am able to start talking
about some of the issues that Ifeel are really driving the

(17:53):
division in our currentpolitical climate. So, it allows
us to talk about issues of race,it allows us to talk about
issues of misogyny, it allows usto talk about issues of, of
capitalism and settlercolonialism. And like, never
once do we talk about these asconservative issues or liberal

(18:16):
issues, but they're things thatstart to kind of become
familiar. And what I see is, youknow, you can recognize in your
students like, okay, you know, Ican kind of get a sense of how
like this person votes and howthat person votes. And there's
never kind of like that, thatangry, kind of like divisiveness
in their dialogue. And whatthey're doing is that they're

(18:37):
taking this very, very importantissue or issues, and they start
untangling it together. And, youknow, many of them are having
these aha moments, you know, andthere's some who are very, like
left leaning that or believethat they're left leaning, and
maybe they're not as leftleaning as if they thought that
they were, and then there areothers who, you know, are

(18:57):
perhaps right leaning, thatthey're like, oh, wait a minute,
no, like, this issue is actuallyreally important to me. And what
I thought that I stood for isactually not the case at all. So
that's kind of like the way thatI've been approaching it in my
class.

Gina Turner (19:16):
It's so interesting, Kelly, because in a
way it comes full circle, right?
Because Sam is talking aboutthat politics and government are
a system that work in theseways, right? So we need that
understanding of the framework.
And then Tom is sort of talkingabout the ways in which
information is passed on andwhether that information is

(19:36):
helpful or harmful in a way,because people can be very
siloed in terms of what type ofinformation they have. So Kelly
is sort of trying to get hisstudents to personalize these
stories, these concepts andmaybe even apply them to their
own previous thinking. And thewhole time, you know, I've been

(19:57):
I've been sort of following thearc of this conversation,
thinking about something I saidto my husband this morning,
which was, "Drayson, I hatepolitics. And here's why". No
offense, Sam. (laughter)

Sam Chen (20:09):
None taken!

Gina Turner (20:09):
But I said, and here's why
psychology. Because inpsychology, you have an

explanation for anything (20:15):
you have an explanation for why
people stand up, you have anexplanation for why they sit
down, you have an explanationfor why they drive a car, you
have an explanation for why theydon't drive a car. And I feel
like, in a way, though, that iswhat makes politics so
interesting, becausefundamentally, it's about
people's individual preferences,experiences. And then each

(20:37):
person is unique within theirown experiences and beliefs and
understanding of the world. Butthe way to be an active
participant in our politicalworld is to then understand
well, how do I use the rules ofpolitics, to push forward what I

(20:58):
believe in, what I feel stronglyabout, what I've just learned
about in class. And so, for me,a big way that I talk about
politics in my classes is totalk about how we all have this
relationship with each other asmembers of a society and that we
have to just like you said, Sam,we have to be able to talk to

(21:20):
each other. And we have to learnhow to talk to each other using
the rules of engagement that Isuppose politics, can can help
to give us. So maybe I don'thate politics as much as I think
I do!

Tom O'Connor (21:35):
Can I sneak in a quick question? And it's
actually it's a question I wantthe answer to. But it's, but I
I'm wondering, actually, ifyou're getting this from your
students, because I was thinkingabout this, when Kelly was
talking about trauma. And I wakeup screaming in the middle of
the night, you know, yellingabout faithless electors! So
like, are you finding that inyour classes that - are your
students coming to you? So thismoment, we're recording

(21:58):
obviously, our current presidenthas not conceded the election
yet. There is a degree ofindeterminacy. And I see as many
thought processes saying, hangon, we've got this as I see
saying, we're in real troublehere. Are your students asking
you to explain what's likely tohappen? What's going to happen?
Or just asking if it's going tobe okay?

Sam Chen (22:19):
Yes, definitely. I think there's less genuine fear
that this whole thing is justgoing to fall apart and more
amused curiosity. I'm not sosure thatwith college students,
I remember when I was incollege, thinking, you know, the

(22:39):
world is always going to workout, things - I mean, unless
there's like a breakup, right?
If there's a breakup, it's likethe world's over. But anything
else, you know, the economic - Iwas in college when the economic
crisis of 2008 hit. And Iremember, just, like, you just
didn't really like you're like,Okay, okay, the world's gonna go
on. And because if you're notworking the job, if you're not,
you know, living paycheck topaycheck, or rely on your job,

(23:03):
it doesn't really affect you.
And so I think there's more ofjust this amused "Hey, this is
weird what, what's going on?"and that that does lend itself
to a little of the challenge,because we could spend all class
all day going through, you know,all the different legal
challenges. I do some politicalanalysis work. And I get a lot

(23:24):
of DMs, from from followers onTwitter and Instagram saying,
"explain this in Wisconsinexplain this in Michigan". And I
just can't reply to everybody.
And our students are asking thesame questions. And so I think
for a few of them, there is agenuine concern of this is going
to fall apart. But I think for alot of them is just a very
amused of" does this happen?
Does this normally happen?" AndTom, I'll share this this one

(23:48):
real quick, short story. Mycousin got married a few years
ago. And his wife, theirfamily's from Singapore. And her
cousin on that side works forthe government in Singapore. And
so we're all at their house forthis dinner before the wedding.
And my cousin's wife introducesme and says, Hey, you know, this

(24:09):
is Sam. He works in Americanpolitics. And you see her
cousin's eyes light up. He says,"sit down and got a question for
you! (Lots of laughter) You canshut your government down in
America?" I'm like Well, yeah,not only can we do it quite
often, it's like a favoriteparty trick. "Oh, my goodness,
you shut your government down.
Everyone in Singapore is likeget your popcorn ready. The

(24:31):
America channel has shut downthe government." (Lots of
laughter) I get that kind ofamusement from students who are
just like "they can do that!?
The president can just sueelection results? What!? Where
does this power come from?" Solong story short? Yes. They
asked about it almost everyclass.

Gina Turner (24:51):
Well, I love this term of amused curiosity because
there is such a level ofabsurdity around it, if you can
sort of take that step back andgo, "what in the what!?" I mean,
you know, even down to the wholeFour Seasons (laughter)

Tom O'Connor (25:09):
That will go down in history. Yeah. I hate
embracing that kind ofshaudenfreude, I just, it makes
me feel bad.

Gina Turner (25:18):
But, I think probably also for you, having
the knowledge that life goes on,right, we plug along, and the
system hasn't broken yet. And ithas a lot of maybe a lot of
flexibility into it. Whereas forsomeone like me, you know, I can
kind of echo what Tom said,which is that, you know, I wake

(25:39):
up in a cold sweat, worried thatthat democracy is going to end,
maybe because I don't have thathistorical knowledge about the
way politics has worked in theUnited States. So do you think
that your knowledge about thepolitical atmosphere is helping

(26:00):
you to teach this stuff? I guessthe question is this, this is
normally the question we wouldasked at this point, which is,
how is your personal ability toteach being affected by the
current moment that we're in?

Sam Chen (26:14):
Sure. I think it's a little bit of a split. There's a
divide here a little bit, whichis some of this and I remind my
students of this, which is someof this is just amusement. And
it's, again, fascinating, youcan check your government down
what, but there is a side whereit gets serious. And I for me,
I'm not concerned, I rememberseeing in 2006, and the

(26:38):
Republicans lost control of theSenate, I was in college, and I
remember my Republican buddiesin college, just that this is
the end of the world. And in2008, when President Obama won,
I remember my political theoryProfessor saying to us in class
at the time, this is themoment, he says, if you're a
Democrat, this is a moment toshow to the world, how you win

(27:01):
with class. And if you're aRepublican, this is the moment
that you can demonstrate how youlose with grace. He says losing
is not always a bad thing,because this is what gives your
party the ability to reset. Andthese are words that just that,
for me really resonated. And soI do think and I emphasize that
with with our students, becauseI realized that I'm going to

(27:23):
have Trump voters, and alsoTrump supporters and I separate
them in my class, I'm going tohave Biden voters and Biden
supporters, I'm going to havethose who voted a third party or
chose not to vote the top of theticket. And there's different
reactions to this. And I thinkiit's an ability: Alex Morgan,
the great striker for the USwomen's national team, she said

(27:45):
winning and losing isn'teverything. The journey is just
as important as the outcome. Andso I try to use these moments to
emphasize the journey to themamid all that amusement. I think
the other side of it, though, isthere are things that get
serious and unfortunately, I canbring my government experience
into this. I'll give you oneexample. I think the President
not conceding to Vice PresidentBiden, the concession is really

(28:08):
a formality, it's kind of thethe post game handshake, right
in the end of the - pre Corona,post game handshake, in the NFL.
(laughter)

Gina Turner (28:19):
the elbow bump!

Sam Chen (28:20):
Right!This is the idea you call your opponent and you
say, hey, you ran a strong race,I just wanna say thank you. And
let's work together. And we allremember the letter that George
HW Bush left for Bill Clinton onhis way in, things like that.
But it's not the end ofdemocracy if that doesn't
happen. But something like whathappened as we're recording just

(28:43):
this week, the firing ofDirector Krebs at CISA. Right?
This is a organization withindepartment of Homeland Security
defense departments that focuseson protecting our cybersecurity
and infrastructure. These arethe kinds of decisions - for all

(29:04):
that we know, I never want toassign motivation. I never want
to say that someone did thisbecause they thought this way.
But for all that we know, thisseems to be a firing that takes
place because he argued that ourcyber infrastructure for the
election was strong, and thatthere wasn't this kind of

(29:24):
infiltration that the Presidentis looking for. And so this is
where you begin to say, Wait,hold on, there's a difference
between government and politics,right? I mean, the easiest thing
I've ever had to do is winelections. The toughest thing is
how people govern. Governing ishard. Winning is easy. And we
cannot bring the win/lossmentality of our politics, into

(29:44):
governance. And this is where Ithink it becomes dangerous. And
our republic does start to geton shaky ground if we continue
to do that. So I tried to bringthat distinction into the
classroom. And I mean, ourstudents are - I think we often
discount college students. Ithink they are some of the
greatest people in the world.
And they do understand it whenit's laid out for them. And it's

(30:05):
really a matter of just helpingthem get there and see that.

Gina Turner (30:10):
Yeah. I think that's great, because it ties
back into, you know, this ideathat we really need emotional
intelligence to be able tonavigate the waters of politics
and government. And that that'smaybe a little bit of what we're
seeing is this breakdown in theability of people to, to manage

(30:30):
their own emotions, and insteadto be able to, as you say, lose
with grace, or to win withhumility, right? I'm watching
this mini series on Netflixright now called the Queen's
Gambit, and it's about chess inthe 60s, you're nodding your
head, you've watched it, andit's just so fun to watch the

(30:52):
formality about how they concedea game, right, they just tip
over their king onto the board.
And it's, it's just kind of thislovely, like, you know, reminds
me of the letterr that theGeorge HW Bush wrote, that
there's a grace in, in passingit on. Um, I think for myself,
just briefly, also, youmentioned we, it gets serious,

(31:14):
and I think it gets serious formy students that I'm hearing
when they think about thestakes, the personal stakes for
themselves. So I have a studentwhose father was an undocumented
immigrant. And so the stakes interms of who is n power, that
that really has a very personalimpact. And I think sometimes

(31:35):
the amusing and the absurditylevel goes away, when when you
start to think about how doesthis impact me walking down the
street day to day or my familywalking down the street day to
day, too? Kelly, what about foryou? I mean, how do you feel
like, what's the roller coasteryou've been riding? in your
classes during this politicalatmosphere?

Kelly Allen (31:58):
I'm gonna say this, because, you know, again, so I'm
I don't teach politics. However,something that I, and I know
that all of you are astutelyaware of, is that our current
political atmosphere isextremely - It's an extremely

(32:23):
emotional period for many folks.
And I know that during the weekleading up to the election, and
then the week after, it wasextremely challenging to get
students to focus on the task athand. I mean, Hell, I talked to
a lot of our colleagues thatalso found it extremely

(32:44):
difficult to focus on the job athand. Like, I'd never really
experienced something quite likethat. Well, no, actually, I
shouldn't say that. Becauselike, my second stint as an
undergraduate, was duringSeptember 11. And that certainly
was - that, rightfully so,disrupted a lot of things. But

(33:10):
yeah, in regards to ourpolitics, I don't remember, like
this kind of emotional toll thatour students and our faculty are
feeling right now. So that'sbeen the most challenging part
is a way to be sympathetictowards those feelings, but then

(33:32):
also finding a way to worktogether, like collectively in a
constructive way.

Gina Turner (33:43):
Yeah. Um, I think I was just thinking again, about
what you said, Sam, that peopleare kind of flabbergasted at how
the government works. And I wasreminded of a colleague of mine
saying that when he was watchingthe election results, he's a
numbers guy. So he would justwatch the numbers and forget
about the people. And I thought,Gosh, what a great way to be

(34:06):
able to decouple yourself and tobe able to be dispassionate
about the process, as opposed toemotional about the process. So,
Tom, I mean, what Kelly issaying is that he's being
mindful not only of thestudents, but also of, of his -
our colleagues, right and ofcourse, Tom, you are also

(34:28):
supervising faculty in theclassroom. Are you seeing that
the political atmosphere isaffecting their ability to
function in the classroom?

Tom O'Connor (34:37):
Yeah, I think Kelly just spoke to all of them
and myself, listening to youtalk about exhaustion. And I was
going to speak to this andbecause it's just, I think,
Kelly, you did it beautifullyabout how this is affecting you
personally, and also how it isaffecting your students
emotionally. All of us cominginto this semester, you know,

(34:57):
following the shutdown, thecovid 19 pandemic, a crazy, you
know, election cycle, came inreally tired, I think at the
start of the semester when we'resupposed to be refreshed. And I
think about if I was asked todescribe the semester, I feel
like I'm running the fourth legof a marathon and constantly
trying to stave off hitting therunner's wall. And so, all of

(35:20):
us, I think, have been lookingamong faculty for a sense of
community to reassure andsupport each other and say, you
know, we got this, and I've hadto offer more words of
encouragement. And maybe I don'teven do it enough. I know that
I, I took some vacation days theother day, obviously, I should

(35:40):
say, "staycation" days, theother day. Just because I knew
that I needed, I needed a momentaway. And before I did, I sent
out just a heartfelt thanks andkind of "hang in there" to all
of the other faculty out thereknowing that I think we're all
working. Because when we gohome, and we're supposed to be
relaxing, I don't know about youguys, but I'm turning on the

(36:02):
news, and then getting yelled atby Becca for having turned on
the news. So then I go to myphone, and then you know, and
then I wake up the next day, andI'm okay, let's do this, again.
From our students perspective,emotionally, and I don't want to
make this partisan. But I mean,there is a frank divide, I
think, on the one hand, thereseems to be one side that seems

(36:25):
to be acting largely out offear. And I and I would ascribe
it to a lot of people, in thelast four years have have, like,
in my students, at least, I'vesensed like, they feel like
there's a lot riding on this, Ithink both sides feel that. And
then I also feel that there isthere is some anger out there,

(36:45):
too. And all of that,interspersed in there, but not
as much as I would like to see,is kind of hope on either side,
right, people are either tryingto return to normalcy feel like
they've lost or maintainsomething that they are deeply
and personally identify with, interms of I think, for a large

(37:07):
part of our nation, theirrelationship with our president,
where it's an identity basedrelationship, and they see
something in him and aparticular type of leader that
they feel really inspiring. Andso it riles a lot of passion.
And mixing into that passion onboth sides is fear. So to come
back, actually, this goes allthe way back to something you
said earlier, Kelly aboutcreating spaces and sneaking

(37:28):
things in, I feel like I'vecreated three different spaces
in my classroom. The first spaceis kind of in the minutes, you
know, proceeding class, where Iallow students to talk about
their lives and how it is beingaffected by everything that's
going on. And that usuallybleeds in to the beginning of
class time. And we're nottalking about anything content
related into that class. And I'mokay with losing those five, and

(37:52):
maybe even sometimes 10 minutes,because it almost feels like
it's a therapy moment. And itcreates a sense of community, no
matter again, to your point, Samabout diversity, no matter where
you're standing, everyone feelsreally invested and wants to
talk. And then I've created asecond space where, okay, guys,
we're putting that in a box overhere, because we have these
other really important thingsthat that we need to be talking

(38:13):
about. So we got that out of oursystem. Now we're going to get
to the work of what we'retalking about today. And then
there's the third space is thebest. And I think the first two
work in tandem to make thatthird space happen. And it's
like the most satisfying andit's a result of the other two,
which is that I'll use myEnglish class, that we create a

(38:33):
space where we can contextualizeliterature and theory within our
political moment. So uh, twoquick examples would be, I
recently taught ShirleyJackson's The Lottery. And
alongside Edgar Allan Poe's TheCask of Amontillado, not two
texts that people would think ofis specifically political,
right? But my students began toexamine how like unexamined

(38:55):
practices and traditions canlead to arbitrary and painful
violence in a society, which isexactly what's happening in
Shirley Jackson's The Lottery,and we're seeing that going on
in our own society right now.
Or, you know, or how someonedriven, or a group of people
driven, by inarticulate revengeor unfocused anger can commit
atrocities and harm others,which is of course, what happens
in The Cask of Amontillado, youknow, the unnamed grievance.

(39:18):
And, you know, that's a storythat we ended up talking about
the anger we were seeing in thestreets, and how on both sides
and how it was leading toviolence and the breaking of
windows and people feeling likeharming others was okay in a
given moment. And we were usingliterature to do that. So we
were, you know, those were andthose have been the best

(39:40):
moments, the semester. They'vebeen, they've sustained me as an
educator and hopefully beencathartic for the students as
well, where they felt like thework that they were doing well,
they might not have beeninvested in Poe, or Shirley
Jackson, an old New Yorkerstory. They felt it redolent.
The both of these you know, youknow, sixty, seventy years old
Than 100 and some odd years old,you know, we're relevant to a

(40:01):
particular moment, and they sawsomething that was going on,
were able to connect it. So thatthose are some war stories,
because I can only think of thissemester in terms of war
stories.

Kelly Allen (40:12):
Wow. What about you, Gina?

Gina Turner (40:13):
Well, um, oh, gosh, um, I think I kind of was
talking about how, you know,that for me, I'm, it's trying to
empathize with the students thatare in that space of fear in the
classroom, and that do feel, Imean, for lack of a better term,

(40:37):
taking it personally, and notable to kind of separate
themselves from the emotionalside of what they're seeing and
the hurtful and painful thingsthat they're seeing. And I think
the other problem, I don't knowif problem is the right word.
But the other issue, of course,is that people feel so decoupled

(40:58):
from what politics and whatgovernment can do. And so they
see all of these things thatthat are terrifying them, that
are making them outraged, thatthat they're seeing as
injustices, and it can be veryhard for them to see how those
things can fit together. Is thatsomething that you're seeing

(41:19):
with your students, Sam? Arethey connecting the dots between
what they feel passionatelyabout, and the structures of
politics and government?

Sam Chen (41:30):
Not as much as I would hope. And to echo what all three
of you said, I think, have beensaying that idea that there are
real world consequences to whathappens, right, whether it's
legally speaking, or it'spolitically speaking. Former
Speaker house, Tip O'Neillfamously said, all politics is

(41:52):
local. And he's right. And Ialways tell my students, you
know, you go down somewhere,South Carolina, you know, former
congressman Trey Gowdy, TeaParty member, very conservative,
and you have someone from theBronx in New York, and they say,
how does somebody like TreyGowdy or Ted Cruz in Texas? How

(42:15):
does somebody like Ted Cruz, getelected? The guy's a nutcase.
But then you travel to wherethey're from. And you live
there, and you talk to thepeople there and you eat in
their diners, and you go to workwith them, and you listen to
their struggles, and you don'tnecessarily agree with them. But

(42:36):
you begin to understand thewhy.And people from there, they
say, how does someone likeAlexandria Ocasio Cortez get
elected, she's a nut. But thenyou go to the bar, where she
used to be a bartender. And youwalk a day in her shoes, and you
go listen to the people and allthe people who shared stories

(42:58):
with her while she was waitingtables, and you listen to their
stories. And you might not agreewith where she stands. But you
start saying, Wait, hold on aminute, I'm starting to
understand the why. And this isexactly what the study of
political science is supposed todo. Aristotle says, in Book One
of The Politics that we havegovernment, because we are

(43:20):
people that need to, we need toorganize ourselves in these
forms. Right, in thesestructures. And so the study of
our government should be anintrospective study of
ourselves, and of how we engagewith each other. And we can't do
that until we first knowourselves. And then two, we know
our neighbors. And so I think, alot - my one of my former bosses

(43:44):
is Ohio Governor John Kasich,and he would always say, growing
up in Mckees Rocks, rightoutside Pittsburgh, he would
say, you know, our our heroesweren't the President of the
United States. My hero wasRoberto Clemente. I didn't even
know who the President UnitedStates was. And he said, you
know, the job of government isto empower the people. And so

(44:05):
much has, to your point, Gina,students not realizing that that
is, in large part, the fault ofthe government. The fact that
the government has kind of takenit instead of saying, Let me
show you how to do or let meempower you to rise into this.
And because when communitiesrise, we knows when community
rises, it lifts everybody,everyone rises together. And the

(44:29):
government's kind of fallen intothis. How about you just give us
more money? And we'll just do itfor you. As opposed to, hey,
let's invest in the community.
You do it, we rise together whenthe community does it. And so I
think a lot of that is on thegovernment, that people don't
feel that they can engage thegovernment other than make a
phone call, write a campaigncontribution. They feel

(44:50):
disconnected. And I'll behonest, that's on those of us in
the government.

Gina Turner (44:56):
Yeah. I mean, and of course, you see things like,
you know, the gerrymandering andvoter suppression things going
on too, that also makes peoplefeel like well, even if I were
to go out and vote, does my votereally stand for something too?
I was thinking also about whatyou were saying about, you know,

(45:19):
community and my husband alwaysjokes, my husband's actually
from the UK. And he always jokesthat America is just too big.
It's just too many people. But Ialso teach evolutionary
psychology and you know, one ofthe things and that that's a
whole kettle of fish as well.
But one of the kind of basictenets, I guess of that is that
human beings formed in smallcommunities, and that we are

(45:43):
really designed to operate insmall communities where we do
know each other's names, and werecognize each other's faces.
And when it gets to be too big,then that's when the trouble
comes. Because we don't know andtrust the other people that are
allegedly part of our community.
And so how do we buildcommunity? And maybe one of the

(46:04):
ways that we build community isthrough technology? I mean, do
you feel as though technology ishelping or hurting? You know, we
are in this moment right now,where we have to use technology
to communicate with each other,we're using it in our classes.
Do you feel like there'sanything in the ways in which

(46:26):
we're using technology that ishelping or hurting? You know,
your ability to pass on theseideas and to talk about
government politics?

Sam Chen (46:35):
Yes. And both?
(laughter) Technology isfantastic. I mean, look, we're
doing this, you know, viatechnology, we could all be
sitting in the room together.
But we're going to do this bytechnology in the era of COVID.
And even more than that, gettingto connect people that would
otherwise we'd be trying to buya plane ticket and asking the

(46:56):
college for funding to bringthem here. Yeah, we can do these
forums now. And the other greatthing I think, with technology,
if we use it right, you know, Italked earlier about people who
live in South Carolina or Texasmight not understand what life
is like in the Bronx, and thosewho live there don't really
understand what it's like in theSouth. technology gives us a
window into other communities,it could be an absolutely great

(47:18):
tool. The other side of it,though, I think, is that it can
also silo us, right? And so ifwe can easily use technology to
really put ourselves in the echochamber, so I think it comes
down to how we're going toutilize it. One of my fears with
technology, one of the things Ilove about it first is I think
it's put information at ourfingertips, right, Google is our

(47:41):
best friend. And it's putinformation at our fingertips.
But one of my fears with it inthe educational sense, and the
pedagogy sense is as a collegeas a University, and Institute
of Higher Education. Our job isto teach for understanding and
wisdom. Today, the majority ofour political fights, if you log

(48:02):
on to Twitter, and you just readthrough these, first of all, you
cannot educate for understandingor wisdom in 280 characters it's
not doable, right? But if youread through our political
fights, our fights are dealingwith information.The debate over
fake news is a debate aboutinformation. Information leads

(48:22):
to knowledge, which then leadsto understanding and wisdom. So
we should be at theunderstanding wisdom end of it,
and we're still debating what'sinformation. And then we
actually have taken a stepfurther back and started
debating how to be nice to eachother. So we're not even on the
spectrum yet from information tothe wisdom. And I think

(48:43):
technology can both bridge thatbut if abused can also push us
further away from from realizingthat and that's my concern with
it.

Gina Turner (48:52):
Yeah, I've seen a thing on Facebook, you guys have
probably seen it too. Itdescribes exactly what you just
said, Sam. So it starts out withjust a matrix of dots, and it
says "information". And thenthere are lines drawn between it
and it says "knowledge" and thenthere's kind of a network drawn
and it's "wisdom". And thensomeone has connected the dots
in the shape of a unicorn and itsays "conspiracy theory".

(49:15):
(Laughter) So great. But yeah,so that's such a great point.
It's It's a tool, right?
technology is a tool likeanything else and we can use a
tool to build and we can use atool to destroy. What about you
guys, Kelly and Tom, how do youfeel like technology is

(49:35):
interacting with your students,with the classroom, with the
political climate?

Kelly Allen (49:40):
Do you mind if I go first, Tom?

Tom O'Connor (49:45):
No, by all means.

Kelly Allen (49:46):
All right, cool.
And the reason why I asked to gofirst is just because I think
what I have to share piggybacksdirectly off of what you were
sharing with us, Sam, and thatis, what is it that technology
is doing in regards to our, ourunderstanding of what

(50:08):
information is and whatknowledge is, and so on and so
forth. So for me, technology hasreally helped my ability to
teach within this currentpolitical landscape. Because
like, we're, we're just all onit all the time. So what it's
allowing me to do is to reallykind of focus on that as a

(50:29):
space. And as a genre. And theway that the rhetoric kind of
unpacks itself within thatplatform. So, this semester, my
students, a great deal of theclassroom happened on their

(50:51):
phones. Now, I taught thishybrid model where we did a lot
of work online, and then I wouldmeet them outside for like, an
hour a week, just to kind of goover, you know, like, whatever,
it was great, we got to plantgarlic and harvest potatoes, it
was a good time. But anywho, buttheir final projects were done

(51:13):
on Instagram. But what happenedbefore that is I said, Okay, so
I want you to go out andinvestigate some hashtags that
you believe will be associatedwith, with the arguments that
you want to make in yourInstagram posts. So then they
had to write to me about theirhashtags, and why they think

(51:35):
that their hashtags areimportant. But then also, they
had to talk about like, whatkind of images are being used in
these hashtags? You know, arethey trying to incite fear? Or
are they trying to like incitepassion, like, whatever that is,
so like, we're, we're actuallytalking about technology and how
it, how it behaves, and then weare using that technology in a

(51:57):
way to create new knowledge inthe classroom. Because I just
feel that in so many of ourstudents after, and I'm sure
that a lot of my writingcolleagues are gonna, you know,
like, hunt me down and beat me,but, the way that we're teaching
writing in college, thetraditional academic essay,

(52:22):
while I appreciate it as agenre, and what it does for us
as academics, many of ourstudents, once they leave
college, they're not going tosee an academic essay ever
again, and they're not going toreally have the opportunity or
the need to write one, like theway that they're going to be

(52:45):
receiving information andcommunicating with others is
going to happen on like, vastlydifferent platforms. So, like
this kind of, pandemic worldthat's forcing us to live and
kind of communicate throughtechnology has actually been
beneficial for me to startmoving in this direction, where,

(53:06):
you know, I'm walking away fromthe way that I've taught for,
you know, 10 years, and I'mmoving towards this more digital
social media kind of informationassessment and knowledge
building.

Gina Turner (53:21):
Hmm, how about for you, Tom?

Tom O'Connor (53:23):
I'm so scared of this question. Because listeners
of the show know that, like, youknow, with, like technology and
so one of the challenges andalso the things that about the
semester that have beensatisfying is that I'm a
Luddite. I always make this jokeabout being a Luddite. And that
you know, I touch a computer andit sometimes breaks. It's more
making fun of myself in a lot ofways because I'm I can be savvy

(53:45):
and learn technology and andI've had to embrace it. I'm
going to do my Frankenstein'screature. impersonation really
quickly in terms of thetechnology that is helped and
hurt my own classes. The mostthe semester has been the news
and the news media and thevarious mediums in which it is

(54:06):
delivered. You know, Sam,whether it be Twitter,
Instagram, and having to becomesavvy, and so like, you know, so

here's my (54:13):
"news GOOD! news BAD!" So like, when I was like
watching Stabler, the guy inMichigan who, you know, the rant
that was on the little rant hedid about the two Republicans
who kind of held up the vote inDetroit for a while and wanted
to disqualify it, you know, andso like, that was, that was

(54:35):
something that was happening onZoom and social media that kind
of lit up. And that, you know, Icould look at that. And I was
like, that's a great moment forthe news, but I constantly have
to sift through the news. And solike, to Kelly's point,
actually, on the one hand, ourstudents and my students and
myself have never had access toso much and that's a good thing

(54:57):
and a bad thing because whatwe've had to do, and this is to
Kelly's point is make what hasjust been the medium, the thing
we need to be discussing andtalking about and digging into.
And so the discussion of sourcesand like, you know, where it's
coming from, who's funding them,who's doing the speaking, what
else has been written about thishave become far more substantive

(55:21):
in my classes, and they feelvital when we talk about them.
Because we are, I think a lotabout I had a professor at
Lehigh University, a goodfriend, Scott Gordon, who he
taught a whole class onparanoia. And he actually
released an entire book onQuixotism, the idea of like, the

(55:41):
Don Quixote figure who is likeliving in a world of its own,
and I think about Don Quixote alot. Because when people become
trapped in in a single mindset,and are not open to diverse
ideas and difference and tryingto bridge gaps, they're
constantly tilting at awindmill. And no matter how many
times they tilted the windmill,and you tell them, it's, you
know, it's not a giant, it's nota giant, it's not a giant, it's

(56:04):
just a windmill, they're nothearing you. And so one thing
we've been doing is kind ofdeconstructing some of these
conspiracy minded paranoidmindsets that kind of build
these singular universes oftruth, to try to speak across
them. And I've been thinking,obviously, a lot about the
divides in our nation, and thequestion of how we can find a

(56:27):
path towards unity. You know,obviously, Biden wants to run
as, as a uniter, you know, andthere is no path forward, if we
can't begin to start workingacross the aisle, again,
identifying issues of commoncause, identifying, you know,
compromise, and not worrying somuch about whether I'm going to
win in the next election cycle,or whether I'm going to get

(56:49):
funding. And so I see myclassrooms as kind of a testing
lab for whether and how that'spossible, as we try to see
across difference. And so inthinking in a future forward
way, I want to be thoughtfulabout how it can be using
technologies, maybe, to bridgedifference, you know, and maybe
it's about finding a school inTexas, you know, teaching a

(57:09):
similar minded class, though,and, and sitting down to have to
have talks between students intwo very different localities
talking about their experiencesand what matters in their lives
and what's substantive in it.
And I don't know how we do it,but now I want to do it after
this conversation. Because ityou know, to, was it Tip
O'Neill? the quote? I alwaysthink in terms of the feminist

(57:32):
[quote] the personal is alwayspolitical. But you're absolutely
right, politics are alwayslocal, I think that those are
joined at the hip, and equallypowerful. And so I love that way
of thinking about it, Sam, and Iwant to think about it more like
that going forward.

Gina Turner (57:48):
Um, so I love that idea, Tom of, you know, we can
we can have classrooms anywhere,right? We can pull students
together anywhere. And I mean,for me what, so I've already had
a pretty high comfort level withteaching online, I've taught
online for 14 years. And so itwasn't a huge, huge shift for

(58:09):
me, it's an area that I feel socomfortable that I didn't feel
like I had to add a lot of bellsand whistles. So what I'm
actually loving is, in someways, it's made my teaching so
much more simple and direct. I'mnot having to photocopy a
million handouts before I go toclass, you know, it's just we're
just sitting there talking toeach other asking each other

(58:30):
questions going into smallbreakouts, it's - I'm treating
my classes, so much like theseseminars where we're all in this
little box, you know,interacting with each other, as
opposed to all thedemonstrations and bells and
whistles that I might have donein a real live class. And as I'm
thinking about that, I'm I'mthinking that technology has, in

(58:52):
a way sort of enlivened myexperience as a teacher,
especially under thesecircumstances. And I'm thinking
also for you, Sam, I almost feellike a spark of energy. When you
talk about how this uniquepolitical moment that we're in,
is kind of giving you anopportunity to demonstrate

(59:12):
things about your discipline inin different ways. And this kind
of leads me to our lastquestion, which is, so we've
been wrapping up our podcastepisodes, these past two
episodes with this quote fromAudre Lorde, and she says,
"Caring for myself is not selfindulgence. It is self

(59:32):
preservation. And that is an actof political warfare." And I
loved that because I felt likewe were talking about - we have
been talking so much about howstressed out we've been. But I
think in some ways, some of usare finding things that are
energizing us because of themoment that we're in. So I don't
know if you can speak to that atall. Are there - or are there

(59:55):
other places that you're lookingfor energy and, quote unquote
self preservation

Sam Chen (01:00:00):
Scotch? (LOTS of laughter)

Tom O'Connor (01:00:05):
What Sam said that's my answer too!

Kelly Allen (01:00:09):
Oh lord! That's booze, two episodes in a row,
last time is was red wine. Andnow it's....

Tom O'Connor (01:00:16):
Laphroaig if you got it I like something with a
smoky head.

Sam Chen (01:00:19):
In all honesty, Gina, I appreciate that question. I
think there's two things Ithink. And the first I'll say as
an encouragement, I think tothose who don't get to see
behind the curtain in ourpolitics, which is to Tom's
point earlier, there is a lotmore across the aisle work
together like mindedness, thenwe're led to believe. I've got a

(01:00:40):
good friend of mine, who is inthe media. And she always likes
to say, the media does not havea bent to the left or to the
right, we have a bent to thedramatic. And, I was on a forum
last night with my alma mater,Baylor University, and my former
congressman down there,Congressman Chad Edwards. And he

(01:01:01):
said, Look, he says, you know,he was the subcommittee Chair
of, for appropriations forallocating money for things like
transportation, infrastructure,national security. He said, most
of my appropriations billspassed the house like 423, to
three. He says, You think we hadany press coverage? It's like i

(01:01:22):
's not dramatic enough forhe press to cover. But there
re things like this, and therere conversation, conversations l
ke this that go on, I think ofmy good friends, Robbie George,
ut of Princeton, conservatve Catholic scholar, and his b
st friend, Dr. Cornel West,ut of Harvard, an African Am
rican socialist thinker, they arbest friends. In fact, wh

(01:01:42):
n Dr. George had a heart sitution, emergency surgery, Dr
West drove down to make sure hibest friend was taken care of
they couldn't disagree more. Buthey do these presentations al
over the country together, toshow that thinking deeply i
not partisan. And in fact, weo it at our best when we're wi
h those that we disagree withThat we should never be so ar

(01:02:04):
ogant to believe that we canot learn from those we disagree
ith. And so that's the one ting that really sparks joy f
r me and getting to see my stuents engage in that in the dive
sity of our classroom. And theother thing that would just ad
to that, I think is unpluggin. And as great as it all is to
ake sure we take those breas. Senator Joe Lieberman wrot

(01:02:25):
a great book on the ideaof Sabbath and he's an observ
nt Jew. And he said, Look, I heas the chairman of the commit
ee for Homeland Security inhe Senate and for Sen
te Intelligence, and he wold unplug, turn off his
Blackberry on the Sabbath. Hesays, I've got an emergency
phone in the house, landline,they know the call if we're

(01:02:46):
under attack, he says bt otherwise, everything can wai
. Just because I know the worlds not gonna end tomorrow. And
I think, you know, election nigh, I've been telling outlets a
d interviews that we weren't gona know who won on election nigh
. And so I told them, I sai, Look, 1am I'm done. We're n
t going to have a winner dont text me after 1am phone's goi

(01:03:07):
g off. And, I woke up to a bnch of panic text messages. B
t the reality is, we weren't ay better two or three days l
ter, the world's gonna keep sinning. And you know, s
metimes we have to choose btween politics and life. And p
litics is not life. And I hope ad I tell my students is, I h
pe as much as I love politics, amuch as it's so important to e

(01:03:28):
gage in it. I hope we always coose life.

Gina Turner (01:03:34):
Mm hmm. That's really, that's really powerful.
And I just love the image too ofthese, you know, these two great
thinkers on diametricallyopposed but considering
themselves best friends, but notby ignoring each other's
positions. But by engaging witheach other's positions, which I

(01:03:56):
think is what's so powerful. Youknow, that's what's brave,
really, is to be able to engagewith each other. And again, to
use emotional intelligence andto be able to recognize each
other as part of the samecommunity. I think that's
beautiful. That's what sparkedmy joy actually is listening to
you say that! So how about foryou, Tom. What's what sparks joy

(01:04:20):
for you in this in thispolitical atmosphere these days?

Tom O'Connor (01:04:25):
I'm gonna spark momentary joy since I referenced
it earlier and just make areally geeky Matrix reference
that Cornell West was in thefirst of the Matrix sequels.
Very, very briefly as a fan ofJohn Beaudrillard. But I
actually I was gonna make asimilar point, Sam, because it
your comment made me think aboutthe very close relationship

(01:04:45):
between Ruth Bader Ginsburg andAntonin Scalia. Great lovers of
opera together I feel like weneed to frame pictures of them
together as reminders that wecan. We can have very different
beliefs and ideologies andbelief systems and still be
humane and caring towards oneanother and try to embrace the
ideas and work together inpartnership. My self

(01:05:09):
preservation, this is brief.
It's been my damn "I voted"sticker. It's um, it's, you
know, no one can see me. So it'son the jacket behind my seat.
And like, I think about it alot, I realize I can't take it
off, I want to like shellack itin place, actually. Because one
of the best things to kind ofcome out of this crazy, bad
bleep insane political moment isthat our civics have never felt

(01:05:35):
so important to us, like we arethinking about civics in a way
that we do not always and, it'scome to the forefront, and never
have I, you know, voted anelection that for me personally
felt as consequential as thisone. And like, when I looked
down at that sticker, I amreminded and heartened that I
still live in a democracy whereI have a voice and I can vote.

(01:05:56):
And I want to shellack it to myjacket, you know, with like,
Super Glue, because I alwaysalso fear that our democracy is
crumbling and an imminent dangerin my worst, darkest moments.
And then I have a scotch andit's all good. (Laughter) How
about you, Kelly?

Kelly Allen (01:06:16):
Ummm...

Gina Turner (01:06:19):
Well, I'll give Kelly a second to think because
I just want to piggyback reallyquickly off of that, about the
voting because I will say, soI've been really engaged with,
you know, writing letters andget out the vote postcards and
things. And so now I'm about togo pick up a packet of postcards
to send to Georgia for therunoff in January. And I, myself

(01:06:43):
and other people have beenreally been talking about how
this is such a beautifulteaching moment, for literally
every single vote counts. Right?
The entire, you know, thebalance of the Congress could
come down to a handful of votesright now. And so in a way, it's

(01:07:03):
exciting. Like you're saying,Tom, it's it's making us all
feel more engaged, maybe than wehave in the past. So sorry,
Kelly, I just had to say that.

Kelly Allen (01:07:16):
No, that's cool.
And thank you for, like engagingin that work, Gina. I appreciate
it. Now, I feel just -

Gina Turner (01:07:25):
No judgement!

Kelly Allen (01:07:26):
Shitty like, I do.
I'm judging myself, but

Tom O'Connor (01:07:31):
I keep trying to bleep myself, Kelly, and you're
just dropping curse words leftand right!

Kelly Allen (01:07:34):
I know, I know. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. But and now I
need to go find an "I votedpatch" and send it to you, so
you can just sew it onto yourjacket. Have it aalways there
with pride. But, the last timethat I had the pleasure of
sharing the microphones with youall, I said that, like I still

(01:07:55):
haven't figured it out. And I'mstill kind of like in that boat.
You know, like, how do I justtake care of myself. But one
thing that has, and I don't knowwhy it took me so long to figure
this out. Because it's just beena part of me for forever is that
I just, I, I fill my day withmusic. So like, during the elec

(01:08:21):
ion period, I was listening to awhole lot of Billy Bragg. But
hese last several days have ben trying for reasons that are
't necessary to go into onhis podcast, but I've been lis
ening to a lot of jazz. AndI like Thelonious Monk, don't b

(01:08:44):
ame me or Nina Simone's bye be Blackbird. And then I think
yesterday I listened to Bill Evn's Peace Piece, like six ti
es in a row. And it just, it'beauty, you know, and it ju
t makes me feel good that thee's like, these beautiful th
ngs in the world and that thee's people who are making th

(01:09:06):
se beautiful things, and thenthat just makes things cooler. S
that's what I've been doing.

Tom O'Connor (01:09:17):
I have to give a one music suggestion. And I'm
gonna mispronounce the band'sname because I always get it
wrong. It's the Avett Brothersor is the a-Vett brothers?

Gina Turner (01:09:28):
Avett. Avett Brothers.

Tom O'Connor (01:09:29):
Okay, the Avett Brothers I got it right the
first time. It wasn't from theirtheir most recent album but the
one before they did a trackcalled No Hard Feelings. If you
have - it's worth seeking outand I would recommend anyone go
to Spotify or Pandora, whateveryour music listening station is
(Luddite here, you know, so Idon't know what everyone's using

(01:09:50):
these days) and listen to itbecause it is very much a song
about putting down anger aboutputting down the kind of things
that we carry with us insidethat I think can be destructive.
And it's a lovely little song,and it's worth a listen. It's

(01:10:11):
funny, you know, I'm a jazz nutKelly, but I haven't been able
to listen to it because it'satonal kind of qualities have
been almost too much for mybrain to absorb. If that makes
any sense? I needed soothing.
I'm in George Winston land. I'mfinally you know, acceded to my
wife's music listening tasteslike you know, tinkling piano in
the background.

Gina Turner (01:10:33):
Well, we're gonna have to put together a playlist
for this episode of the podcastand then we're all going to have
to sit around and drink a nicedram of good scotch while we
listen to our playlist.

Kelly Allen (01:10:47):
Absolutely.

Gina Turner (01:10:47):
And dream of the day when we can all do it in
person.

Tom O'Connor (01:11:09):
So Sam, thank you so much for your time today.
Thank you, Kelly. Thank you,Gina. And thank you everyone for
listening. I hope you enjoyedthis discussion, listening to it
as much as I've had having it.
So we look forward to meeting upwith you again, I don't know
what the next Pedagogy-a-go-gobrings. But you won't have to
wait too long for it and we'llfind something fun and cool for

(01:11:30):
you when we return.

Gina Turner (01:11:33):
See you in 2021!

Tom O'Connor (01:11:45):
Hey, thanks for listening to Pedagogy-a-go-go
recorded in the Center forTeaching Learning and Technology
at Northampton Community Collegein Bethlehem Pennsylvania. Our
podcast daydreamer slash showrunner is Kelly Allen and
Pedagogy-a-go-go is produced byJeff Armstrong. If you've got
any questions, please send themto Pedagogy-a-go-go at
gmail.com. Our social mediahandle is at Pedagogy-a-go-go

(01:12:08):
and you can stop by our websiteat www Pedagogy-a-go-go dot com
for copies of podcasts,transcripts, guest assignments
and other useful tidbits. Keepin mind there are no hyphens or
dots in any of the above webaddresses. Until next time, this
is Gina and Tom saying "Takecare and teach well."