Teaching with Grace and Leeway with Sonia Massie

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This month Gina and Tom sit down with Assistant Professor of Biology, Sonia Massie. In this episode, Sonia explains the value of teaching with grace and leeway and why she believes this compassion-based pedagogy is exactly what our students need now and moving forward. Listen in as she reflects on why she’s decided to move away from lectures and how this has had a positive impact for both herself and her students. Please be sure to subscribe to, rate, and review the podcast and follow us on Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram @pedagogyagogo. 

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Episode Transcript

Gina Turner (00:00):
1234 and a guide you go, go, go, go, go, go.

(00:12):
Hello and welcome toPedagogy-a-go-go, a podcast
about college faculty sharingwhat happens in their classrooms
and why this is season four,episode two teaching with grace
and leeway. And we are yourhosts, Gina Turner, and Tom
O'Connor.

(00:34):
Happy May Tom,

Tom O'Connor (00:36):
happy Monday, Gina, how are you doing?

Gina Turner (00:38):
I'm very excited to be in the middle of finishing up
the the finals finals week andwaiting for my final assignments
to come in so that I cancalculate those final grades.
And then summer.

Tom O'Connor (00:54):
Jeff was asking me if I was tired, and I was like,
Oh, yes, I am. And then Irealized why I'm so tired,
because it's the end of thesemester. Ready to crash?

Gina Turner (01:03):
We made it. We survived in the midst of
continuing, you know, transitionand uncertainty and who knows
what the fall will bring aswell? Or are you teaching the
summer? No, I'm not teaching thesummer, which again, is a little
unusual, because I usually teachat my alma mater. I've been

(01:24):
teaching for them one class ayear since I graduated. And
usually it's in the summer. Butof course, with everything going
on now. They've postponed thatclass. So I'll be teaching that
in the fall. So is that the newschool or? Yes, so that's the
new school? Yeah. Yeah. So Igotta find something to do with
myself to keep myself out oftrouble this summer.

Tom O'Connor (01:42):
Yeah, I'm in a new norm. I didn't get to mention
this last episode, but I took ona new position at Northampton
Community College. So whereasyou know, in the past, that was
a, you know, Assistant academicdean at our Monroe campus, I'm
in a new role as director ofprior learning assessment, which
is a mouthful, but it's worthremarking on briefly, just
because it's, it's a really coolnew gig. Basically, I'm working

(02:07):
with students, from veterans tonon traditional students to dual
enrolled students, helping them,you know, earn credit for, you
know, for the work they'vedoing. So, you know, top of mind
for me recently has been allyingand partnering with faculty who
are willing to kind of help meassess student work, you know,
in different ways, and expandlike pathways, you know, to NCC.

(02:30):
For students, it's really, it'srewarding work, it's very cool
to get to work with a, you know,current or or veteran member of
any of our armed forces andsimply say, you know, the, the
service you provided to ourcountry has, has amazing value.
And we as a college value it,let me let me help you. And
let's look over everythingyou've done, and get you started
on on your college career. Soit's been it's been a crazy

(02:52):
transition, and it'll beinteresting to see what the
summer looks like, I know it'sgonna be different than last
summer, though.

Gina Turner (02:56):
Yeah. Well, it that is really important work that
you're doing, Tom, because itspeaks to, I think many of the
things we're learning havinggone through this pandemic,
which is a lot more opennessaround what constitutes academic
achievement, and what whatconstitutes I guess,

(03:18):
demonstrating your knowledge,your competence around different
academic areas and translatingthat into academic credits. And
I think that's, you know, Ithink those are, those are
positive moves that we'remaking, right? It goes to the
idea that it's not just sittingdown and memorizing a textbook

(03:41):
and then regurgitating it on atest at the end of the semester.

Tom O'Connor (03:44):
That's exactly right. So that's, it's a brave
new world, but I'm excited to bea part of that here at NCC.
Yeah. But more important than myrole, though, is is our guest
today. Professor of Biology hereat Northampton Community
Colleges, Sonia Massey. I'm soexcited to get the chance to
talk to her. She came inactually, maybe a year and a
half after I did the college. Ithink she's in her fifth year

(04:07):
here at Northampton CommunityCollege she teaches at our
Monroe campus. She's also been areal leader teaching online for
us, and especially as we pivotedinto the pandemic. She brings
experience teaching at communitycolleges and colleges in New
Orleans in Florida, in southernNew Jersey before her time here,
she's an Atlantic City native.
And I'm sure as we'll find outduring our conversation, just a

(04:30):
truly remarkable professor andhuman being. So I'm really
looking forward

Gina Turner (04:37):
to it. Yes, Sonia is a great colleague, and I've
had the opportunity to work withher on several committees and
caucuses and projects and so Iknow we're going to have a great
conversation. If you had justone or two, describe yourself as
a teacher, what would it be?

Tom O'Connor (05:00):
As much as giant crabs and allergies are
exciting, Sonia, it is sowonderful to have you here on
the Pedagogy-a-go-go podcastthat with us. You may not know
this, but I've wanted to haveyou on for a long time. But I'm
I'm secretly glad that wewaited. Because you've been here
at NCC, you're in your fifthyear. And I realized that over

(05:23):
half that time you've beenteaching here during a pandemic,
and what that experience must belike to kind of just have your
feet under you. And then theworld pulls the rug out from it.
And so like, I'm going to bepicking your brain later about
what that experience has been.
But it made me just want to haveyou on the podcast more because
I hope I make you embarrassed ina good way right now, just

(05:43):
because in a moment where therewas so much uncertainty and so
much uncertainty lived in thesciences in which you teach
about how are we going to dothis remote, you position
yourself as as such a leader andmentor to other faculty during
that change in the move toremote and online. So and I was
working closely with you becausein that at that time, I was
working as an assistant dean atthe Monroe campus. And I just

(06:05):
want to say right now howgrateful I am for everything
that you did during that timeand how many people you helped
so so thank you from the bottomof my heart.

Sonia Massie (06:18):
I'm touched, I didn't even know I did that.

Tom O'Connor (06:20):
So but but for our audience, no, I will I will get
into ways exactly how you didthat later. But but for our
audience, can can you tell uswhat classes do you teach here
at NCC? And what is it aboutyour classes that make you
excited every day to come in andteach them.

Sonia Massie (06:37):
So I primarily teach microbiology for Allied
Health. The students in thatclass usually are nursing
intent. They're hoping to getinto our nursing program. And
there's usually a few eachsemester that are going into
other allied health programs.
And I'll get back to thatbecause that that is the main
class that I teach. And it's mybeloved class because my degree
is Master's in microbiology,immunology. But I also have

(07:00):
taught the majors version of forlike science majors
microbiology, I've taught hereat NCC genetics, four majors in
genetics for non majors. Andthen, you know, essentials of
biology, class, and anatomy andphysiology, all that good stuff.
But my favorite is microbiologyfor Allied Health, and I think

(07:25):
so it's twofold why I love it.
One is that microbiologyfascinates me. And I'm assuming
that now coming out of apandemic, it fascinates
everyone. But the other part isthat my students are going into
allied health fields. And Ithink that they view

(07:47):
microbiology the way I do or atleast there is the potential for
me to get them to be asfascinated by it as I am.
Because they're going intofields where they actually need
to know the content of thecourse because they are going to
be working with patients.

Gina Turner (08:07):
Do you feel like you have had any pushback on the
science of the pandemic? And Imean, not to kind of go there
already. But do you feel likethere has been any? I mean, I
guess I'll use the wordpolitical, you know,
politicizing of your disciplinein these last few years,

Sonia Massie (08:31):
of course. So microbiologist and immunologist
go to school for a long time,right? They get master's
degrees, they get PhDs. And theneveryone believes, you know,
buddy, who made a YouTubechannel to talk trash against

(08:52):
the CDC. I don't know. There's areal buddy. I'm not referring to
a real person. Just a name. Soabsolutely. I mean, it takes a
while to really grasp viruses.
Microbiology in general, butespecially viruses, viruses are
bizarre. They're alive whenthey're in us, but they're not

(09:16):
alive. When they're not in us.
They make no sense. I tell mystudents, they're like aliens
from outer space. They don'tthey don't fit with life on
Earth, and yet they wreak havocwith life on Earth. And so for
the scientists to have been so Idon't know denigrated, and, you

(09:38):
know, people didn't believe themand said horrible things about
the motives. It was definitelypoliticized. And I will say just
personally because people knowthat this is my field and like
on social media, I would Iwould, you know, post trying to
be a voice of reason explainingthings like even from the

(10:00):
beginning of the pandemic, andso I've had people contact me
privately to ask, you know,like, my husband and I are
debating whether we should getthe vaccine and we wanted to
hear your input on a differentthings like a former student of
mine who was a an elementaryschool teacher wanting some
input about masks because sheteaches in Florida where they

(10:23):
refuse to let the students wearmasks like little things like
that. But definitely you get thepushback, like you're saying, I,
just the other day, somebody wassaying, like, don't get any
vaccines don't ever getvaccines. God is there like God
is your vaccine. I'm like, Godgave us medical advancements. So
I'm getting my vaccines. I waslike, We can talk later on

(10:45):
microbiologist.

Tom O'Connor (10:47):
God, maybe a lot of people's copilot, but I don't
see them taking their hands offthe wheel in the car. So Right.

Sonia Massie (10:52):
It's funny, because I mean, I have a very
strong faith. This is I have avery strong faith in God. And my
faith tells me that God providedme with the vaccine, you
understand God made humans thatare intelligent, that can test
things out. And this works, thatdoesn't work. And so I feel like
yeah, that's definitely not agood excuse that we're going to

(11:14):
pray our way out of thepandemic. That doesn't make
sense.

Tom O'Connor (11:17):
Can I ask a quick question about so like, Gina,
kind of lead the way here, Ithink we've been talking about
politicisation in this moment oftime. And the added stress that
that brings into the classroom.
But I'm thinking for the lasttwo plus years, you know, you
said teaching and allied health,you mentioned nursing intent
students, and the intent is thekey word there. Because I know
what a pressure cooker thatclassroom can be for the stress

(11:42):
that those students are under,both because they're in an
incredibly competitive, they'retrying to get into an incredibly
competitive program with verylimited seats. But importantly,
many of these people are alreadyworking in the healthcare
industry in some way during thepandemic. And then, you know,
I'm gonna throw this out there.
Microbiology is not an easyclass. You know, students were

(12:05):
stressed about that class, prepandemic. And now they're,
they're learning in that class,and in many cases, a fully
remote environment. When you addall those stresses on top of one
another, how do you manage thatin your classroom?

Sonia Massie (12:19):
So I could probably fill the rest of the
podcast just talking. So can wego back to when, when everything
shut down? Yeah. So during thatsemester, I was teaching
microbiology and genetics. And Ilet my students decide whether

(12:42):
we were going to keep meeting tohave lectures live, only one
class opted to do that. Andthere are about 21 students in
that class, and about seven oreight of them would consistently
come to the lectures, and wewere doing on Blackboard
Collaborate. And so much likemany of my colleagues

(13:03):
experienced, I was teaching tolike one person and a bunch of
square squares with a name andthat kind of thing, which was
fine. But my teaching style isis very interactive. I'm asking
questions people are tellingstories. Like you mentioned,
Tom, many of my students arealready working in healthcare,
whether that's a receptionist ata doctor's office, an LPN at a

(13:24):
hospital, medical assistantsCNAs like they are in
healthcare. So one of thereasons why many of my students
could not come for the livelecture was that their hours
changed. When the pandemic hit,they were now at the hospital
for much longer stretches oftime. So I had been teaching,

(13:50):
I've been teaching onlinecourses since maybe 2002. So I
have experience with you know,arranging Blackboard, very
methodically, making sure theycould find everything they need,
putting in a variety ofassessments, quizzes, exams,
different kinds of assignments,discussion board, and I had

(14:12):
never, I hope I don't get introuble with anybody for this.
But never, never have I ever inmy whole entire teaching career.
Made a lecture recording for mystudents. No, I never. I never
provided them with lecturerecordings I and I never and I
was not doing during thepandemic. I was not doing any

(14:36):
zoom or Blackboard Collaboratebecause of what I experienced.
That semester that we shut down.
My students, especially becausethey're in health care. My
students to me they were nolonger candidates for being at a
place at a certain time. If thatmakes sense, right? Yeah. There
are plenty of other professorsThose who have made recordings

(14:59):
of their lectures and so I linkthose in on Blackboard, so that
the students who do need to heara lecture had it. But I just
tried to build in so manydifferent things like, I'll put
fun videos, if you ever onYouTube look up amoeba sisters,
they have these cooler, they'reanimated, it's so fun, they're

(15:20):
short, they usually like five to10 minutes. Because I know some
students might need that.
There's PowerPoints to clickthrough with no voiceover, you
know, I just tried to putdifferent formats of of, you
know, ways that the studentscould, could learn it. But um,
so one other thing I want to sayon this subject is that because

(15:42):
my students work in health care,when the time came for us to
start moving back on campus, Iactually opted to continue
teaching online as long aspossible. Because twofold.
Number one, I never know when mystudents, you know, they might
sign up for a class at a certaintime. But if their schedules had
to shift again, because theirward was overrun with COVID

(16:03):
patients, that's not going to bebeneficial to them. And then
number two, I have some healthrisks that put me in like the
high risk category for COVIDcomplications. And teaching any
class of students gives yourisk. But teaching a class where
half or more of them work inhospitals, was you understand
like that was a little bithigher of an exposure than I

(16:24):
wanted to, to take. So thissemester was my first time with
a couple of classes that werehybrid with the lab in person.

Gina Turner (16:31):
It's great to hear you say that, Sonia, because one
thing like you, I've beenteaching it, at least somewhat
online since 2004. So I was verycomfortable teaching classes
fully online, and fullyasynchronous. And, you know, one
thing I am pleased about is thevalidation of that as a teaching

(16:54):
methodology. Because of thepandemic, I think people are
being forced to find ways to usethese learning management
systems like Blackboard, and touse these video conferencing
systems, even for things likeoffice hours, right? Adding that
in to give your students anopportunity to, to meet with you
in real time. But still, thatthere's a ton of value in

(17:18):
providing multiple ways ofexploring the material, like you
just describe different videosand activities and PowerPoints,
that isn't just recording aperson standing in front of a
room, and then plopping thatrecording into into Blackboard,
which is not to devaluelectures, but I'm just really
glad to hear you say that.

Sonia Massie (17:40):
Right? Well, something that I appreciate
about Northampton CommunityCollege is that we did shift to
start offering so manymodalities and I know it can be
overwhelming for students evenfigure out even in my classes,
where when you look on theschedule, it says online, it
says like, from zero o'clock tozero o'clock, there's no meeting
time. And they, they look at mysyllabus, and they see my office

(18:02):
hours, and they're like, Okay,is this the time that I have to
log in for class? And like, no,that's my optional office hours,
you never have to log in forclass. But if it's a student who
does need that live lecture,they can take someone else's
offering a section like that,where it's online, but you have
a lecture, and then someone elseis offering a hybrid class,

(18:24):
right? So I love that we aregiving our students so many
options because some students doneed to hear the live lecture.
Some students read theirtextbook and they get it they
never need to go in theclassroom. Yeah. All the in
betweens.

Tom O'Connor (18:38):
I began by discussing my gratitude to you
personally, Sonia, like it withthe pivot to to the teaching in
the pandemic landscape. And youwere like, What are you thanking
me for? Well, I think he justexplained what I'm thanking you
for, in terms of because I mean,just to be clear, what you are
describing is meeting ourstudents where they are

(18:59):
understanding their specificneeds, and also understanding
that students come to knowledgein different ways, and are
different types of learners. Soyou're kind of in in a nutshell,
you pretty much laid out thebasic principles of universal
design, for learning, and howyou've been bringing that into
your classroom. And in a momentof panic, when people hadn't
been teaching online for over adecade, right. You know, you

(19:23):
were, I think, at the frontsaying, We can do this, let me
show you how I'm doing this.
Like, let me show you how mystudents are being successful in
this moment. And so like, like Isaid, I think you were a real
thought leader, but even just inhearing you talk about the
stress of that time and how youmet it head on. You were this,
this calming presence at amoment of great, you know, of

(19:45):
great unease. And so anyway,that's where my gratitude came
from, because you were alwaysopen, you know, if an adjunct
needed help, you know, or ifanother full time professor was
like, I don't know how I'm goingto be doing this in this in this
way. You Were like, let me showyou what I'm doing. And so like,
that's, that's where mygratitude came from. But

Sonia Massie (20:07):
I think the pivot Oh yeah, sorry, I was just
saying, pandemic or otherwise,I'm always willing to help
others. And there have beenothers that have been always
willing to help me here atNorthampton Community College.
So I just feel like that's why Iwasn't sure what you were
talking about, regarding thepandemic, because I feel like
that is just that is just ourway here

Tom O'Connor (20:25):
was in specifically yours. And I knew
that as soon as you began totalk, it would become incredibly
obvious why I admire yourteaching style, and, and just
your, your collegiality in thisacademic environment. So let me
let me put you on the spot andask a challenging question. If
you had just one word, describeyourself as a teacher, what
would it be?

Sonia Massie (20:48):
So hard to it's hard to pick one word, there's
two words that

Tom O'Connor (20:50):
you can hyphenate we've let people hyphenate

Sonia Massie (20:54):
hilarious hyphen passionate is that? How about
effervescent, that

Tom O'Connor (21:00):
effervescent?
There's no, I'm

Unknown (21:02):
okay. With that you like it? I'm going with it.

Tom O'Connor (21:05):
We began with the sound of the fists of myself,
Sir, we've we've arrived fullyeffervescent.

Sonia Massie (21:12):
Yeah. Because I just, I want my students to love
learning and not justmicrobiology or whatever the
subject is I'm teaching. I justwant them to be as excited as I
am about, you know, diseases andoozing sores and stuff is
fascinating.

Gina Turner (21:35):
I'm reading a book.
That's a setting the plague inEngland right now. And it is
fascinating. It is, Do you canyou think of a, an, an
experience that you've had witha student, or multiple students
where you've felt like, oh,gosh, I really effervescent. And
I really to, to to getpassionate about these yucky

(22:00):
diseases, or even a time whereyou have felt challenged by a
student's experience or multiplestudents experiences?

Sonia Massie (22:10):
So? Well, the first part, I'll just answer
briefly. It always pleases me inthe comment section of student
evaluations, when they say thatI made microbiology fun. And
they'll say like, she made ahard topic seem easy, you know,
I learned but I had fun doing itlike that is like Whoo, that

(22:33):
just like icing on my cake, freecake, if you will. But I have to
say, and forgive me, I might geta little choked up. But during
the pandemic, I, I made anassignment that was just worth a
small amount of points. To givemy students a chance to talk

(22:53):
about what they were goingthrough with the pandemic. And I
don't even remember exactly whatquestions I asked, but it was,
it was just a reflection on, youknow, like how things were
going. And, again, because a lotof my students work in health
care, I could only read a few ata time, because it was so
devastating. Yeah, the studentswere working in hospitals, and

(23:17):
not seeing their families,sometimes they had to, like
isolate away from their familiesfor long stretches of time. And
God bless them, they were stilltaking microbiology and whatever
else they were taking, and theywere making it happen. And I
just want to say like, I mean,everyone has been affected by
the pandemic, but our healthcare workers are heroes. And the

(23:38):
fact that they you know, justwere able to continue on, adapt,
make a way, I am just an all ofthem. But definitely my students
have had a, you know, like aunique set of challenges during
the pandemic. And one huge thingthat I take away that I am

(24:00):
really like challenging myselfto continue doing is my my model
during the pandemic was Graceand leeway. I wanted to give my
students all the grace andleeway and give myself grace and
leeway. We all needed grace andleeway. And the majority of the
assignments in my class in myclasses have, you know, weekly

(24:24):
deadlines. But their ultimatedeadline was literally the last
day of classes. The only thing Idon't accept late is peer
feedback on the discussion boardbecause no one's gonna see it if
you post it, you know, the weekafter or beyond. And I've had
students who really needed thatright, because they're great

(24:45):
students. I know you're alreadya great student, if you've
already if you've made it toAMT. If you made it to a&p one
and you're now in micro likeusually they take AP one first.
That class is like the boot campof trying to get into allied
health fields. So I I alreadyknow you're you're studious, and
you're, you know, motivated andall this stuff. But I mean life

(25:06):
really blindsided a lot of them.
So not only are they inhospitals, right, but their aunt
might be dying of COVID. Andtheir next door neighbors, like
every, you know, all the samestuff we all went through in the
pandemic, except they were alsoworking in hospitals and doctors
offices. And so anytimesomething was late, or they're
asking for more time, I wouldjust remind them, like, as
stated in the syllabus, the lastday of class is the ultimate

(25:29):
deadline. And I'll accept it,and I had students really fall
behind and still get A's and B'sother classes, because they were
able to go back and make it up.
And I know that will be morechallenging when we're in
person, for me to acceptsomething way after the fact or
let them take an exam, the lastday of class that they missed
the first month of class, but Iwant to challenge myself to find

(25:52):
a way to make that happen.
Because, I mean, in the realworld, we can move deadlines,
you know, we can readjust and wecan adapt, and I want to be able
to do that, for my students. AndI don't think there'll be as as
much of a need for it, you know,like, as much as a widespread
need for it. But if I had thatone student who whatever their
grandmother died, they had totravel to another state, they

(26:13):
were going for two weeks, thefamily was traumatized, whatever
the case may be, I want to tryto continue given that grace and
leeway because we havephenomenal students, but
sometimes life gets in the way.

Gina Turner (26:28):
Absolutely. And it gets in the way, not just for
the students, but for us as asfaculty, for all of the other
people who are working at thecollege as well. And, you know,
hearing you say that I love thatgrace and leeway, you know that
that flexibility that you'rebringing to to your classroom

(26:50):
into your community of students?
Do you ever feel like you wereyou know, you were kind of
singing the praises of thecollegiality here at NCC? And do
you ever feel like maybe thatbutted against other people's
perspectives on rigor and youknow it because I love what you
said in the real world.
deadlines can change. You know,oftentimes you hear people say,

(27:12):
well, in the real world, you'dget fired if you didn't meet
that deadline. But, but it istrue that there is a certain
level of grace and and leeway inthe world as well. Maybe even,
you know, hopefully more soafter the pandemic, but did you
feel like Grace and leeway wasbeing granted between colleagues
and how that contributed to thefeeling of collegiality?

Sonia Massie (27:35):
I think so, I mean, I haven't experienced
anything to the contrary. And Ithink I'm not the only one who
was allowing for, you know, someflexibility. I am sure that not
everyone was only because I hadstudents that would, you know,
or advisees that would let meknow that they were having this

(27:57):
problem. And the teacher saidthey couldn't take the test
late, even though it was be likea really big problem, like they
were hospitalized, or, you know,they death or something like
that. So I understand that noteveryone is going to give that
grace anyway. Just I'm justgonna say for me, personally, I
don't think rigor has torigorous not diminish by simply

(28:22):
giving students thatflexibility.

Gina Turner (28:24):
Amen. And I didn't mean for it to be like, well, so
and so did it. I wasn't tryingto get you to call anyone out,
but I would never anyway, right.
I know, you are a much kind,you're very kind person. The,
you know, the other thing thatthis leads me to think about too
is, you know, you you mentionedgetting choked up even reading,

(28:44):
you know, a few of your, yourstudents assignments and, and
also, it takes a lot ofbandwidth to provide that
flexibility and that grace, howare you giving yourself that
grace? Can you can you talk alittle bit more about, you know,
how you're avoiding burnout bymaybe giving yourself some of
that grace and

Sonia Massie (29:05):
leeway stopped cleaning my house.

Gina Turner (29:08):
I am giving you a standing ovation for that
answer.

Sonia Massie (29:13):
Door during the winter when we went into
lockdown I had I think I was inmy second quarter of my
Doctorate of Education Program,just fully online. And my
daughter was still apreschooler. So now she was so
now I was home with apreschooler. So now instead of
her room being her playroom, thewhole two bedroom apartment is

(29:35):
her playroom. And I'm home withher with a two full time
teaching load. And I was takingtwo classes per quarter at
Drexel. And so something had togive it was my floors but I
think so that is one way that Ireally have had to give myself

(29:57):
grace in the way so I now I'mjoking that I'm One day Dr.
Massey will clean thatapartment.

Tom O'Connor (30:06):
Sonia, I cannot give you a magic wand for
cleaning your floors. And Idon't have a magic wand, maybe
for the answer to this nextquestion. But so much of what
you're speaking about, I thinkgestures towards it in the sense
that when we talk, I want to beclear. I'm so glad that that
Gina doubly underlying thisnotion of grace and leeway only

(30:26):
because I think that's not justa COVID issue in the COVID
classroom. I think that that'simportantly in all classrooms
pre and post God willingpandemic. For me personally, the
last few years have reallyshaken my the way I see higher
education, have expanded it inmany ways is we've had to

(30:47):
explore new avenues. So I'mgoing to put a magic wand in
your hand and ask you if youcould change any one thing about
the state of higher educationright now. In light of
everything you're talking about,what would it be?

Sonia Massie (31:00):
Alright, so this is huge. And the pandemic
happening while I was inDrexels, EdD program, those two
things like came together toreally impact me in that I don't
want to ever lecture my studentsagain. And I'm going to have to
figure out what that looks like.
Because in the fall, I do havesome on ground lecture, this

(31:23):
will be my first time with an onground lecture. So number one,
my teachers at Drexel didn'tlecture me, they didn't lecture
us, we had a zoom class coupletimes a semester, not even every
class, every professor did that.
And very little of it waslectures, more like

(31:45):
conversation, group work, stufflike that. And during the
pandemic, I have not beenlecturing my students, and
they're still doing fine. So Iknow for years I've been hearing
this, we should be the, weshouldn't be the sage on the
stage, we should be the guide onthe side. And I have to say that
what I had to end up doing formy students during the pandemic,

(32:06):
and what my Drechsel professorsdid, for me, really, those two
things came together tohighlight that, that I am there
to facilitate my students intheir learning journey, and not
just blah, blah, blah, stand atthe front of the room and talk
at them. And I know, I thinkespecially in the sciences. I

(32:28):
hear this like for yearsdecades, maybe even people will
bring up things like a groupproject, like different things
that you do in a class andscience teachers are usually
have the mindset of why have toomuch content to cover. And of
course, we do have labs whereyou get to have hands on and you
get to have group work andthings like that, and that's
fine. But um, it can be boringfor students to have to sit and

(32:52):
hear someone talk about sciencefor an hour and 15 minutes,
twice a week. And so So I wantto, you know, maybe experiment
with flipped classroom, youknow, basically have everything
online for my on ground studentsthat, that my online students
had, the videos and all that.
And then let's just talk and Ihave to say that on a small

(33:13):
scale, I have done this in thepast where my students had to
find a primary research articleon anything related to
microbiology, read it type up asummary, and then we sit in
class, and we talk about theyshare their summary. And then we
always have discussion. And myfavorite time, this was before

(33:35):
the pandemic we were in person.
I think it took two and a halfclass periods. To get through
everyone's all the discussionabout these journal articles.
And I know that as a scienceeducator, there will be the
temptation to feel like, I'mgoing to cut out two chapters

(33:57):
now. Right, like we just wasted,quote, unquote, all that time.
But it wasn't because thearticles they were reading were
about microbiology. And whenthey were something relevant
relating to, you know, what,what we were going to discuss, I
would, you know, chime in. And Iwould even say like when we get
to that we can just skim throughit now because we just talked
about it. Right? And so Ireally, and I know this is not

(34:18):
it's not necessarily a one sizefits all. Like, I don't know,
math, for example, at somepoint, you're going to have to
talk at the students so you knowcertain things, but I just would
love for us to really move awayfrom lecturing in person because
it's boring. And I'm sorry, it'sboring. And I mean, I've done it

(34:40):
and I'm admitting it's boring.
And then like I try and make itas interactive as possible. But
the other thing too, is likeart. Our students like modern
humans are becoming less likelyto want to hear and lecture and
more likely to want to talk andinteract and construct and
collaborate and you know, Allthat good stuff. So I would like
for me and other educators to,to take heed to that and

(35:05):
actually be that guide on theside rather than sage on the
stage, we're still important, westill have all the knowledge,
you know, we still can feelgreat about leading the class,
but in a different way,

Gina Turner (35:18):
I am so happy to hear someone from the STEM area
to talk about a move from bothbeing the sage on the stage. And
also the fact that let me frameit this way. There is factual
information that a nurse isgoing to need to know 100% You

(35:38):
want her to know, the differencebetween, you know, I don't know,
I'm not a nurse. So I can'tthink of a good example. But
there's factual information thatwe want our physicians to know
what there's factualinformation. But the way in
which factual informationbecomes sticky, I think is, you
know, more and more we're reallyrecognizing is by connecting it

(36:01):
to the things that we alreadyknow and understand. So group
discussions and group projectsmakes that information sticky.
And for me, in psychology, Ifeel like their ability to make
those connections between theconcepts is more important than
me drilling the terminology.
Understanding the concepts ismore important. And in my

(36:21):
cognitive psychology class, Ihave my students read a little
section from a book by YuvalHarare, who's a historian who's
talking about the tools we needfor the 21st century and beyond.
And all the information is atour fingertips. If you can't,
you know, we can we have, wedon't need to have memorized
everything, like you did in the18th century for education,

(36:43):
because we can Google it on ourphone. So it's the ability to
connect the information and tothink creatively, and to
communicate with each other, Ithink is so important. And
that's really what I'm hearingyou saying about? You know, I
feel like that is a move thathigher education is making?

Tom O'Connor (37:07):
Can I ask about the flip side of that coin?
Because Sony, I can't tell youhow many times like you said it,
the most common thing you hearis my classes crammed with all
this knowledge that I have tocram into my students heads,
right? I don't have time for anyof that. And I think you outlot
are very quickly outlining a fewpaths, that knowledge. And I
would ask you actually, to shareI mean, so you talked about the

(37:31):
primary source article thatsummarize and then the student
becomes the teacher. And thenthe discussion happens around
each of those articles is onegreat example of an assignment
that leads people to thelearning to the desired learning
outcomes. How are you what arejust off the top of your head,
if you have like otherassignments that you're doing in
your own classrooms, I thinkwould be other faculty members
would love to hear what theyare? And also like, how are you

(37:54):
assessing that your studentshave reached those learning
outcomes? How do you know? Andwhen do you know how to assess
that?

Sonia Massie (38:00):
Right? So I mean, I still use traditional quizzes
and exams for, you know, forassessing their learning
outcome. And online, I usediscussion boards and look at
their if they're, you know,actually providing the content
that I'm asking them for, andthen also the the peer feedback.

(38:22):
But as far as an assignment,there's an assignment that I'm
really proud of that I startedusing a few semesters ago, it
was just a, it started off assomething more basic, that was
just an extra credit assignment.
And it evolved into somethingmore detailed. So I was at a
conference online during thepandemic, and somebody from
another community college, wastalking about a diverse stem

(38:45):
influencers, Google spreadsheetthat she had made. And she was
sharing it with with people. Andit's amazing. It's a spreadsheet
that has, again, like diversestem influencers. So it has the
person's name and has what fieldthey contributed to. And then
there's even some links towebsites to get more information

(39:07):
about the people. And I waslike, I need my students to see
this. Like, I want my studentsto use this. So the assignment
that I use now in mymicrobiology for allied health
classes, the students have they,they they don't have to pick
from that list, but they can atleast you know, look at that
list for ideas. If they knowsomeone that's not on the list,
that's fine. But they have toresearch to individuals that are

(39:29):
from different STEM fields,right? So I don't want to
microbiologists right, so itmight be a computer scientist
and a mathematician or aerospaceengineer and a biologist, that
sort of thing. And they need tobasically report on the person's
life and also theircontributions to their field.

(39:55):
And I very specifically did notwant to make this is an essay or
research paper? So I made it amultimedia presentation. Because
I think that, not that I think Iam certain that as much as our
students are tech savvy, they,for the most part, don't know
how to make things withtechnology, if that makes sense.

(40:19):
I mean, I've been shocked toeven find out that some students
have never made a basicPowerPoint presentation. So
yeah, so they have they can Igive them suggestions of
possible using YouTube, likemake a video, they can make a
PowerPoint presentation andpresent it and record

(40:39):
themselves? I have. I have aPadlet is another example that I
give them where they're, youknow, Padlet, you're kind of
making like a posterpresentation. And, and so this
is I mean, it's worth part oftheir grade. And they post it in
the discussion board area, sothat the other you know, others

(41:04):
can look at it and give themfeedback. And I mean, honestly,
for me, the assessment is, Imean, they, they're assessed on
like, whether they did what Isaid the two different people,
different fields and all likethat. But as far as the the, the
learning outcomes like they are.

(41:25):
How can I say the feedback, I'veasked for feedback, because it
was a new assignment. And I'veactually put it in my
supplemental questions for mystudent evaluations to ask them
specifically about, about thatassignment. And I'm just so
pleased at the fact that theywere struck by these diverse

(41:46):
stem influencers that theydidn't know existed. So like,
for me, I don't know, I don'tknow, did I leave it to a
specific learning outcome? No,but I'm on top of the world
because my students now knowthat there's some Chinese man
that did this. And there's someblack woman that did that. And
that science is not just a, youknow, monogamous field, right.
So and then the fact that I'mhaving them do things like

(42:09):
Padlet, or make YouTube videos,or even PowerPoint, and they
never have done that before. Andit's, it should be fun. I mean,
it's, it may be challenging, butI would hope that they had fun,
a lot of some of them, thefeedback was that they really
enjoyed it, they had fun doingit. And so yeah, that's, that's
something that I, I love. And Iwould love if all of our STEM

(42:30):
classes did this, because like Isaid, this spreadsheet, it
literally has people from allfields of, of STEM, and the the
teacher, that professor who madethis is open to input, because
one of my students, I think,told me about someone and I
emailed her and she added thatperson to this to the
spreadsheet. So it's a it's agrowing spreadsheet,

Gina Turner (42:51):
Oh, that's great that the student was able to
contribute to the informationtoo. And what a fantastic way to
address I mean, honestly, toaddress the fact that our
traditional learning materialsdon't make a point of of finding
people who have contributed tothese fields, from different

(43:11):
backgrounds fromunderrepresented backgrounds. Do
you feel like you've ever hadany pushback on the assignment
from or either from thisassignment, but it does also
make me think about the ways inwhich you know, if we're talking
about COVID, and we're talkingabout disparities and who gets

(43:33):
COVID and, and disparitiesacross ethnicity and differences
in access to health care andthings like that? I'm not sure
how much you get into thatnecessarily, in your classes,
but are you getting any pushbackfrom people who are, you know,
again, I have to be the one whokeeps bringing up elephants in
the room. But in terms of thisidea of, oh, critical race

(43:56):
theory, oh, you're, you know,you're forcing us, you know,
forcing this down our ourthroats and and we don't, you
know, we want to push backagainst that.

Sonia Massie (44:06):
No, I've never had any student you know, like,
voiced concern about why I wasdoing it. So I will say that I
started using this beforecritical race theory became
like, a buzz, you know,problematic. I never heard of
critical race theory until Itook a social justice class at
Drexel in a doctoral educationprogram. So it's funny to me
that I mean, I am not teachingcritical race theory to my

(44:30):
students, I am just giving thema diverse stem influencers
assignment. But But one thingthat I want to point out is that
the majority of my students arewomen. And I would say I mean, a
third to half of my students arefrom minoritized racial groups.

(44:55):
So I think this spreadsheetthat's full of it Women of every
color, there's white women towhite, white women in STEM is
still considered diverse, youunderstand? Right? So for the
most part, I think they're justseeing people that are like
them, right? And then I doselves. Right. And that's
important. That is so important.
Yeah. And, and so, you know, Ihave had male students also, and

(45:19):
I've never had anyone sayanything about there are males
on there, too. There's Hispanicmales and Asian males on the
spreadsheet. So but No, I'venever gotten any pushback about
that.

Gina Turner (45:32):
Yeah, I mean, I got a little bit of pushback in my
health psychology class, when wetalked explicitly about COVID.
And, and those healthdisparities and kind of back to
the beginning of ourconversation, I had students who
just kind of wouldn't accept thedata that I was providing to
them from the CDC. And, andfrom, you know, well source news

(45:53):
articles, you know, they werethey were sort of at, you know,
kind of stubbornly rejecting theidea that, that there would be
differences in in an in anillness, for reasons that we
were discussing in the class,right, that there are social
inequities. So I just wanted toask that question. Well, you've

(46:15):
mentioned your your program,your EdD program, and how that's
kind of informed or thinkingabout lecturing, do you have
other experiences, either inyour program now or at being a
student prior to this, that youfeel like really turned you into
the teacher that you are today,or maybe even a moment when you

(46:39):
thought, you know, what I reallywant to do is teach?

Sonia Massie (46:43):
Why? Well, both of those questions are gonna lead
me back to my beloved almamater, I got my bachelor's
degree from Xavier, Universityof Louisiana, which is a
historically black university inNew Orleans. And I have to say
that it's I've heard people sayabout Northampton Community
College, that it's a communitycollege with like a university

(47:03):
feel or something like that.
Yeah. And I have to say thatXavier University of Louisiana
is a university that has acommunity college feel. My Yeah,
it's funny, because I'll justleave it as one example. So
there was a, I had some healthproblems my first year there.
And much like, I tried to givegrace and leeway to my students,

(47:26):
my professors there gave megrace and leeway. So this is my
foundation, right? Xavier had apolicy called F E, you could
fail due to absences, you couldhave an A, and still fail due to
absences, and they waive thisfor me, and my teachers were all
very understanding and theyhelped me during that year. And
one of the things that reallylike, impressed that, you know,

(47:50):
like I know, that loving,nurturing, caring environment,
there was a, there was a teacherwho I was familiar with who I
had never had. And she saw me inthe hall one day might have been
my sophomore year by then. Andshe stopped to talk with me,
like, how was my health doing?
And she was so you know, likeshe was, I don't know how she

(48:12):
knew anything about me, youunderstand what I'm saying? But
because other people knew, Imean, her colleagues were my
teachers. And I just rememberthat that impacted me. Because
people cared about me, right.
And I had an advisor that Iremember saying, Whatever you
do, don't, don't take time off.
Don't move back home. Like evenif you just go part time, like

(48:34):
don't stop because the Iremember she quoted some
statistic about the likelihoodof coming back is, you know, not
high, right. So those thingsreally impacted me. When I went
to college, I had the intent togo to medical school. My degree
is my Bachelor's is biology premed. But because of some health

(48:56):
issues, I realized I didn't Ithought I could survive medical
school, but not the residencywhere they have you working 16
hours straight. And people'slives depend on you. I didn't
think I could do that. So for awhile, I wasn't sure what I
would do. And I was in my, I wasin my I was in my microbiology

(49:18):
class at Xavier University. Andmy professor had a master's
degree and she was working onher her doctorate and she was
she was there with us teachingand she was talking about how
she was doing research and I waslike, oh, that sounds so

(49:39):
interesting to teach and doresearch. So that was what
sparked you know, hey, I couldbecome a teacher. But I will say
real, very briefly, the teachingexperiences I had as a graduate
student, love them. The researchexperience is nice. I did it I
don't want to ever do it againis boring. You're basically by
yourself doing like repetitivemotions. over and over again.

(50:00):
And then it takes over yourlife. And so, yeah, and I
actually started teaching atDelgado Community College in New
Orleans, while I was stillgetting my master's degree. And
I absolutely just loved it justthe whole community college
setting. And I think a part ofthat is because like I said,
Xavier, had that vibe, right,that that we are a community,

(50:22):
we're going to help you getthrough this vibe. And I, I came
to understand later that mostuniversities are not like that
when, when I was in graduateschool at LSU Health Science
Center in New Orleans. One of myfriends and I were running late
for a class it was the onlyclass we had that was not on on
site there was it was over atthe dental school. And I wanted
to call the professor and leavehim a message to let him know we

(50:44):
were running late and myclassmate, this seems so bizarre
to him. Because he was saying hewent to a large university where
essentially the professorwouldn't even know that you
weren't there. Everybody waslike a number. And to me that
was foreign because it was therewere like nine of us of course,
the professor is going to seewe're not there. I want to let
them know why we're not going tobe on time.

Tom O'Connor (51:05):
God bless you, Sonia, because you just gave me
the peace to something I've beentrying to put together in my
head. And so I'll just say whatit is I'll get myself in trouble
here because the the the oldsaying that NCC has been saying
for probably over a decade nowthat we describe ourselves as a
two year school that feels likea four year school. And I I

(51:28):
can't tell you how much I opposethat philosophy in a lot of ways
because no one is more boundedin a nutshell, if you will, than
the idea of the four year schooland I would much rather NCC
supposition be the endlesspossibilities of being a true
community college and in theExcelsior. Xavier I'm sorry

(51:49):
example that you gave todescribe Xavier Stanley it's
what our Sherman or Kelly wasshouting in the background where
you were talking about publicfacing student assignments as he
was celebrating your assignment.
No but with Xavier the idea thatfor your school should be trying
to be more like us. Like we needto we we have the potential for

(52:11):
a flexibility a different way ofbeing and a truly being a part
of a community and just youframing it that way as exalting
this really lovely historicallyblack four year college in New
Orleans. It wasn't New Orleans,right? Yes. And Louisiana. Okay.
Right in New Orleans. And, youknow, and simply saying what

(52:33):
made them great is that theyembodied the best aspects of
what a community college Yes.
And I think that's, that's ourfuture. I know, we're running
short on time. So I'm going tolob one more difficult question
at you. And then we've got areal easy one for you to to end
on. And it's yes. And actually,I think you've been so open and
honest this probably isn't thatdifficult question what do you

(52:56):
see yourself as being your ownbiggest struggle as a teacher?
And you know, how are youworking on growing and changing
in that area?

Sonia Massie (53:06):
This is gonna get me in trouble because I hate I
hate grading and so the way theway I am the way I'm facing that
challenge is by giving myselfless things to grade

Gina Turner (53:20):
another standing ovation from me so

Tom O'Connor (53:23):
huge article on this in the Chronicle of Higher
Education about getting awayfrom you know the about getting
away from different means ofassessment and getting away from
the all the grading

Sonia Massie (53:33):
you know, in science in sciences there there
are like Gina was saying thereare facts that the students need
to know and so my students justtake exams online or in person
the exams are you know, it'sgoing to be somewhat stringent
you you're going to have tomemorize a bunch of stuff and
and so I still am required togive them exams to make sure

(53:55):
that they can remember thoseterms and definitions and which
disease causes which are whichdiseases caused by with which
pathogen that sort of thing. ButI can do all those I usually do
that as multiple choice andmatching. I will give some essay
questions to grade but yeah, Ireally don't like so so like for

(54:19):
discussion boards, the studentshave assignments to do but it's
it's really like what I had todo to grade Israel basic because
for me, the point is them doingthe work and discussing it with
each other. Right. So yeah, soyeah, I don't know should I be
challenging myself to do betterwith grading or am I good with

(54:42):
just keep doing things thatdon't need to be? permission?
Yeah, it

Gina Turner (54:48):
comes back to that idea of whether it's what's
going to stick with them. Thethe 72 points they got on this
assignment or the interactionthey had in a small group
discussion of the assignment.
Right and and, you know, so I'mI'm with you, Sonia and maybe
I'm getting myself in troubletoo. I get points for doing it

(55:09):
and not how it was done. And andthen feedback and discussion in
class about what we're doingtogether. And then obviously
there are major, you know,structured with rubric, final
projects, presentations, papers.
Absolutely. But yeah, the smallstuff teaching

Tom O'Connor (55:33):
you're you're, you're teaching your students to
become learners. That's what Iworry about the act of learning
and acquiring knowledge. Andthere is no more valuable tool
than that.

Sonia Massie (55:42):
That's one of the things I tell them when it comes
to like deadline because mystudents do for the most part,
they try to keep up with theweekly deadlines. And I've had
students say like, I don't thinkI'm ready, it's okay to take a
late and I'm like, as areminder, it stayed in the
syllabus, you can take it up tothe last day class, but But I
tell them like do not take it ifyou don't feel like you're
ready. I'm, I'm more concernedwith you learning the material

(56:03):
than I am with the grade thatyou're you're going to get.

Gina Turner (56:07):
Exactly, exactly.
Well, Sonia, this has been sogreat. And we could continue
talking to you forever. But weI'm going to ask you our last
question which we ask everyguest and and that is to tell
you, for you to tell us a nonguilty pleasure that maybe your
fellow faculty and colleaguesdon't know about you.

Sonia Massie (56:35):
I love watching sci fi shows. I mean anything my
all time favorite is Stargate SGone with different ones over the
years fringe dark matter. Imean, there's so many travelers
it can be about Time TravelAlien, whatever, if it's sci fi,

(56:55):
I watched sci fi so much. Yeah,that almost I mean, at least
once a week I have an epicdream. That's about alien
invasion. I can probablyremember like amazing stories or
Twilight Zone kind of thing. Icould probably if I would like
dream journal in the morning, Icould probably make a series on

(57:16):
Yeah, like different scenariosof alien. alien invasions. I
love watching.

Tom O'Connor (57:21):
Let's do it together, Sonia. This can be our
side hustle. I'm totally onboard.

Gina Turner (57:27):
I just a friend just turned me on to a resident
alien. Have you watched that?
No. Oh, Colin

Tom O'Connor (57:33):
Alan Tudyk. From fireflies in it. He's Oh, I

Sonia Massie (57:36):
love I was gonna mention Firefly. He's awesome.

Gina Turner (57:38):
It's a really fun show. So I Oh, good. I gave you
something to check out.

Sonia Massie (57:43):
I'm gonna check it out. Thank

Gina Turner (57:44):
you. Well, thank you so much, Sonia. This has
been great. I always enjoytalking to you. And you are an
esteemed colleague. at NCC

Tom O'Connor (57:55):
they simply the best is Tina Turner would say
simply the best.

Sonia Massie (57:59):
Thank you all.
What's Love Got to do with

Gina Turner (58:04):
everything, everything,

Sonia Massie (58:06):
everything. I agree everything. Thank you all
for having me.

Gina Turner (58:10):
Pedagogy-a-go-go Go Pedagogy-a-go-go Go.

Tom O'Connor (58:19):
But I am a sucker for time travel. Somewhere in
the back of my mind. I've beenplotting this time travel novel,
you know?

Gina Turner (58:25):
Yeah. You know, I didn't mention the show. But a
show that I got really hooked onwas timeless. So I need to ask
her. This was great. I lovedthat. I actually watched that
show through twice. I got such akick out of it.

Tom O'Connor (58:42):
And you saw the final Christmas Special for that
thing up? Oh, good. Yeah, I had.
Actually I was just thinking oftimeless the other day because
Becca and I were watching. Oh,it was it was a really, really
lousy. Like, I should saymediocre MC G movie with Reese
Witherspoon, Chris Pine. And Iforget the other actors name
called this means war. And therewas like a kind of a small

(59:05):
character part. And I'm like,Who is that? She looks so
familiar. And she had been thelead and timeless and it took me
a few Oh, okay. So, okay, wehave to we have to make that
recommendation to Sonia then.
Yeah, it was every bit aswonderful talking to as I knew
she would be.

Gina Turner (59:23):
Yeah, yeah. And her warmth emanates through talking
to her today. But I just getthat sense that her students
might just gravitate to her somuch, especially given basically
her mission statement of graceand leeway.

Tom O'Connor (59:39):
So there's there's a deep well of genuineness, and
and just, like almost a humaneimpulse to, to be kind of to to
honor our students as adults inthe classroom to understand the
lives that they're coming from,and be present for them where
they are and how they'relearning. Yeah, and just she,

(01:00:02):
you know, even if she becameemotional, you know, you can't
listen to Sonia talk about herexperiences with students talk
about her experiences in theclassroom, whether it's in
person or online and not comeaway going, Oh, my gosh, she
cares so much. And you just knowhow tremendous she is in the
classroom.

Gina Turner (01:00:18):
Yeah, like, especially and and I should say,
in conjunction with her passionand love of her subject matter,
and her attention to, you know,to detail into wanting to make
sure her students are gettingthe material. With rigor, you

(01:00:39):
know, we used to that word andin the conversation and, and so
I just, I really appreciatehearing someone who feels that
priority to have both at thesame time to have that grace,
but to also have that rigor andthat they're not diametrically
opposed from each other.

Tom O'Connor (01:00:56):
No, I, I found it remarkable that I kind of asked
for an assignment demonstratingkind of universal design for
learners, a kind of lecture freeclassroom. And not only did she
give me this amazing assignment,but essentially, it was a
masterclass on how to drawissues related to diversity,
equity inclusion into the STEMclassroom. And so like I did

(01:01:20):
not, I didn't anticipate that.
And once it was there, I'm like,What a gift. And I know that,
you know, we're going to putsome of the information that you
share with us up on the podcastwebsite, and I encourage our
listeners to check it out. Andto, as I say, you know, what,
like, a steal freely from thegreat ideas of others in that
case, and draw that into yourown classrooms?

Gina Turner (01:01:40):
Yeah, it's true that that assignment was such a
Venn diagram of teaching,diversity, student engagement,
giving the students Simoneeight, their own agency about
what they choose to focus on foran assignment, and also what she
touched on, in terms ofassessment, right, that she's

(01:02:00):
not necessarily grading them onwhat they've done, but to simply
the fact that she's giving themthis opportunity to explore and
to become learners and to learnhow to love learning,

Tom O'Connor (01:02:11):
when it's so you know, I began this podcast
talking about my new role hereat NCC and that's, that's top of
mind. That's exactly what I'mthinking about is how do we
assess learning, especially if,if that knowledge has been
acquired in a non traditionalenvironment, not your kind of
straightforward, top downteacher, you know, pouring the
knowledge into the studentsclassroom, and not just

(01:02:32):
memorizing a number of terms.
And it's led to reallyphilosophical conversations, and
I mentioned about faculty whoare thought leaders and real
allies and partners in that workand, and Sonia says top of the
list,

Gina Turner (01:02:45):
yeah, it's great.
Well, I'm sad that that is ourlast conversation of the
semester, but at least we got tohave two really fun engaging
conversations with Dr. KarenMcClintock, Walsh, and of course
with Professor Sonia Massey thistime,

Tom O'Connor (01:03:04):
so, without question, and as this episode
lands at the beginning of all ofour listeners, summers, let me
just take a second to say enjoyit. Take time for yourself where
you can, and we look forward totalking again really soon.

Gina Turner (01:03:18):
Yep, have a restorative and fun summer and
see you in the fall.

Tom O'Connor (01:03:33):
Hey, thanks for listening to Pedagogy-a-go-go
recorded in the Center forTeaching Learning and Technology
at Northampton Community Collegein Bethlehem, Pennsylvania. Our
podcast daydreamer slash showrunner is Kelly Allen and
Pedagogy-a-go-go is produced byJeff Armstrong. If you've got
any questions, please send themto Pedagogy-a-go-go at
gmail.com. Our social mediahandle is at Pedagogy-a-go-go

(01:03:56):
and you can stop by our websiteat www Pedagogy-a-go-go dot com
for copies of podcasttranscripts, guest assignments
and other useful tidbits. Keepin mind there are no hyphens or
dots in any of the above webaddresses. Until next time, this
is Gina and Tom saying Take careand teach well