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Dr. Amna Shabbir welcomes Dr. Adrienne Towsen, an orthopedic surgeon with 20 years of experience and a single mother of two. Dr. Towson shares her unexpected journey into the world of competitive ballroom dancing, which she began at age 46.
Despite a demanding career, she found a new passion that not only brought joy but also helped her reconnect with herself as her children became more independent. Dr. Towsen also dives into her work with The Working Mom, a platform
Bio
Adrienne Towsen, MD is an orthopedic surgeon specializing in shoulder and knee. She has been in practice in West Chester, Pennsylvania for 20 years. She is also a single mother with 2 young adult daughters. Six years ago, she discovered ballroom dancing which quickly became a passion. She now competes internationally with her instructor. With the little bit of left over time she has, she is the co-founder of The Working Mom, a platform to support moms working in healthcare.
Social media links :
https://www.facebook.com/momsworking?mibextid=JRoKGi
https://www.instagram.com/theworking.mom?igsh=Z2hwcGdrczJ4bHVq&utm_source=qr
https://x.com/ladyorthodoc/status/1833177668289700090?s=46
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Amna Shabbir, MD (00:01.151)Hello and welcome to another episode of the Physician's Guide to Doctoring. I am your host, Dr. Amna Shabir, and today I have a very special guest with me, Dr. Adrienne Towson. Dr. Towson is an orthopedic surgeon specializing in shoulder and knee. She has been in practice in Westchester, Pennsylvania for 20 years. She was also a single mother with two young adult daughters. Six years ago, she discovered ballroom dancing, which quickly became a passion. She now competes internationally with her instructor.
(00:01):
With the little bit of leftover time she has, she is the co-founder of The Working Mom, a platform to support moms working in healthcare. Welcome to the show, Dr. Towson, how are you?
Adrienne Towsen (00:40.805)I'm great. Thank you so much for having me.
Amna Shabbir, MD (00:43.057)Absolutely. So you are your surgeon and you're a professional dancer. I would love to hear your passion in what led you to where you are specifically now helping other working moms as well as professional ballroom dancing. I'm just very intrigued.
Adrienne Towsen (01:01.154)Yeah, okay, no problem. So technically I'm an amateur as far as the dancing goes, but I do dance with a professional dancer who is my teacher. So, you as you mentioned, I've been a surgeon for 20 years in practice and my kids are now grown. So what led me initially into the dancing was just looking for something else to do for myself once my kids were older. So I'm a single mom, have stayed single, was single from when my kids were about one and three.
So once they got older, like high school age, I started thinking there's gonna be a void. I really just focused so much on my work and my kids that I thought once they're heading off to college or even in high school as they're more independent, I'm gonna need to find something else to do. Huge fans of watching dancing. We watched the show, Dancing with the Stars and all of that over many years. And I thought, well, I would really love to do that. Was never a dancer before. Didn't really dance like growing up or anything like that.
played other sports. But then I got introduced to it just from a social dancing standpoint. And there's a studio not far from where I work. And one of my partners and his wife used to go there. He's like, you should go and try it. It's really fun. So I went just to learn a little bit. And then I got introduced to the competition aspect of it. And I was hooked. So then I just got matched up with my teacher, who is still my teacher now.
six years later and we had developed a nice partnership and then there's this whole world of pro-am competitions where teachers dance with their students. It's huge. I had no idea. I've learned a lot about it now and it's been a big part of my life ever since and we just developed really nice partnership and it just became a passion. I just was absolutely hooked. Love the challenge that it is.
way harder than it looks. So definitely became something that was just super fun to do. A bit of a challenge to learn something new. I I started learning at age 46. So I really hadn't done something new in a long time. And then it's just a different world. It's hair and makeup and dresses and just fun. And there's a good bit of travel with it for me now too, which is super exciting. And it just became something that I decided.
Adrienne Towsen (03:14.19)This is what I'm going to dedicate my free time to and I just love it.
Amna Shabbir, MD (03:20.425)So much in there. Thank you for sharing that part. I mean, it's incredible that you don't not only have this amazing professional career, you've decided to pick up this. I mean, not even a hobby that is more safe. You you're on stage, you're out there. It's it's athletic. It's all those things. And you started at forty six. How inspirational is that?
Adrienne Towsen (03:36.779)Yeah.
Adrienne Towsen (03:45.932)Yeah, thanks. Yeah, it was, I will say it took me way out of my comfort zone. I definitely was not, you know, one who is easily, I mean, I'm in front of people, in front of my patients. I can talk to people all day long. I can do what I do. But this is, as you said, completely different. And I'm a little bit more reserved by nature. So then getting out on that floor and, you know, having to be a little bit more like sexy at times and do certain dances and do things that are just, again, not what my day to day is like at all.
I was, it was tough at first. It took me a while to kind of break out of my shell as far as the performance aspect of it goes, but it was fascinating to really learn the technical aspects of the dances. I do many different dances and we compete in some different styles.
And then getting into the competition world, really hadn't also done anything like that in a while. I played sports when I was younger, but it was fun to have that competitive drive again too. And then developed a really nice relationship with my teacher. He's one of my best friends now. He lives in Italy, so that's a whole nother piece of it. We do a long distance thing now because he was in the US for a little while, but not anymore. So we kept our partnership together and it's pretty unique.
what we do to keep it together considering I live in Pennsylvania and he lives in Tuscany. So we do a lot of lessons by Zoom and we see each other about four or five times a year for about a week or 10 days at a time and do a pretty intense week of training and then usually do a competition at the end of that week. So it's again, not the traditional way to do it necessarily, but it works for us now.
Amna Shabbir, MD (05:24.873)This is, again, not to sound repetitive, but inspiring on so many levels because as physicians, what we get told is the very limited worldview and you do best at one specific thing and you just keep doing that. And here you are absolutely modeling how the world can open up to what you can do, diversify yourself as a human. Just like this wholesome picture of not just
you in the OR, but also you on the dance floor and making it work despite having this long distance relationship with your partner, having that happen and just making it work.
Adrienne Towsen (06:00.558)Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I often, always would say, you know, if it matters to you, you'll find a way. And that was kind of what happened with us because he ended up going home around, you know, COVID time and then he stayed home and we didn't necessarily think, I didn't think he was going to come and live in the U.S. So we figured at some point there would be a disruption or something we would have to figure out if we wanted to keep dancing together. And it came a little sooner than we thought with COVID.
but it kind of then forced us into again, just finding that way. So, we had already devoted a couple of years to our partnership and I was again, fully like, it was my passion at that point already, and so it's only been magnified since then. And a lot of people ask me, why don't you just find a teacher here, do something, make a change, which certainly you could and a lot of people will change teachers at various times, but.
we had a special connection and we, know, he devoted a lot of time to teaching me because I knew nothing when we started. look back at some of the early pictures and videos and I'm like, like, I don't even know how he saw any potential in me when we started. so it was a journey for both of us and he put a lot of time and effort into turning me into a dancer. And, and then we just decided we wanted to, you know, find a way to continue. we did. Yeah.
Amna Shabbir, MD (07:18.197)Mentorship, it's like mentorship, partnership, creativity, all wrapped up into one. So you're a surgeon and you are a dancer and you also have a platform, The Working Mom. Share your journey into the platform and what it does basically.
(00:22):
Adrienne Towsen (07:23.404)Yeah, for sure.
Adrienne Towsen (07:29.26)Yes.
Adrienne Towsen (07:34.286)Yep.
Adrienne Towsen (07:40.712)Absolutely. So we're still honestly in the fairly early stages of this. it became, it came to be, I should say, because my best friend who is a vascular surgery physician assistant, her name is Lisa, and I started brainstorming probably about five years ago thinking we need to do something else because we were actually facing both of us a little bit of kind of burnout in medicine at that
So if you're five years ago, I was in practice for 15 years at that point. She's a little younger than I am, but still, you know, definitely feeling like this may not be what I want to do all the way into like true retirement age. So is there something else I can do? Is there some other way I can use, you know, my current skill set, maybe something else in the medical field, or can we do something entirely different? So we brainstormed a lot of ideas.
drank a lot of wine, tried to figure out if any of these things would stick and then many of them didn't. And then we thought, well, what else do we do other than medicine? Like we were moms and know, my kids are adults now. She has one daughter who's 16. And so we figured we've gone through many of the phases that women face of raising kids and then also trying to be working at the same time, specifically in healthcare of course is what we know, but a lot of what we're thinking could certainly apply to other fields as well.
So then we thought, okay, maybe we can figure out a way to just, you know, lend some support or help moms with through our experiences. Because often I would get asked like, wow, like how did you do it? You know, you're a single mom, you have these two amazing kids, not to be a little biased, but anybody who knows my kids, they really are amazing human beings. And I didn't do it without help. And I think that's one of the main, our main like, you know, statements is that, you know, you really do need,
They always say, you know, it takes a village and it kind of does. I mean, you definitely need some help with that. But we figured that through our experiences, we could offer guidance, we could offer suggestions, we could try to maybe demystify that working mom guilt a little bit and try to offer, you know, our experiences to other younger moms or even moms at whatever stage of the game they were in.
Adrienne Towsen (09:44.974)So initially it just started out as a blog and that's pretty much what we've done. We started this in 2020 actually, but it's been very much a side, you know, kind of side hustle or however you want to describe it for both of us, because we still have very full-time jobs and you know, do other things. But our goal through the blog and now we're writing a series of handbooks. We've written the first one. It's soon to be hopefully finished and work toward publishing maybe beginning of next year.
to try to just kind of go through all the different aspects of, you know, being not only a single working mom, but being a working mom in healthcare with some of the specific things with long hours and shift work and being on call and all of the taking care of people all day long and then trying to also take care of your kids, maybe even take care of yourself a little bit, but all of those aspects, you know, and what our kind of strategies are that we've used, what we've done and how we were successful and how we weren't, you know, to try to offer some guidance.
Ideally into the future, we'd love to do like some retreats and other things, maybe some events. We've gone to a few expos and things like that so far, but basically right now we're pretty much a blog and then we have some presence, some social media presence, but the books are our next plan.
Amna Shabbir, MD (10:59.123)Wonderful. And you mentioned work, all of this and kind of pausing here and backtracking a little bit. As a surgeon, being in healthcare, I would love to hear your reflections and insights into what are some of the top challenges that working women in healthcare are facing these days.
Adrienne Towsen (11:00.002)Yeah.
Adrienne Towsen (11:07.288)Yeah.
Adrienne Towsen (11:21.458)Yeah, absolutely. So, you know, my career has sort of evolved over a few different aspects of being actually in the same group, but going through some different ways that that group has been managed or run over the years. So I started in my very first job. I have had two jobs total since my fellowship. My very first job, I was actually employed at a hospital for just two years, little hospital, very close to my house.
And my kids were very young, so that worked out. So I think, you know, certain things to think about would be what does the job really entail? know, is it, you know, how much call is it? What are the expectations for the day to day? Do you have flexibility? Because that was huge for me. When I was, my first job was hospital employee, I still had a little bit of flexibility because it was a tiny hospital and not super busy.
But nonetheless, I had a boss for sure. And then when I joined my, two years later, I joined the group that I'm presently with. So I've been with my group for 18 years, small private practice, amazing community, had been in the community for already like 20 years before I joined. So they had a great reputation. And even though was the only first and only woman in that group, and I've dealt with that all through my training and everything.
The guys were just fantastic. So all of them, with kids themselves, at different stages of that, many of them with wives who worked, and they understood my situation and they basically said, do what you need to do. So I was able to be in a supportive group where I could make my hours kind of what I wanted. mean, of course I had to pull my weight and do what I needed to do and be on call when I needed to be on call.
But I was still able to come in a little bit later if I wanted to take my kids to school on an office hour day. When my kids were younger and in elementary school, I took the first Wednesday of every month off and that was my day to go volunteer in their school. I chaperoned as many class trips as I could. I did those things, but I had the flexibility to do that. So I think private practice, in my opinion, that holds just a special place in my heart that that's the way to go. Unfortunately, if you fast forward now,
Adrienne Towsen (13:30.747)It's much harder to be in a private practice in the way we were 15 years ago. So I think it's still out there and there's still possibilities and there's lots of things and lots of different situations people can find. But I do think that flexibility is key and depending on your specialty, it could be harder or easier. think having obviously a support system around you is key. I was very lucky that
Even though I was single, my parents were very available for me and we actually lived as a three generation household for nearly 20 years. So that was huge. And I know everybody doesn't have that luxury. So I think if you don't necessarily have family support or something as let's say, quote unquote, easy as that. So important to, you know, find other, some other type of support with, you know, even if it's just a daycare center or whatever it needs to be, you know, that, that it can work with your.
(00:43):
your hours or that you can work your hours around what you need for that. And then as healthcare has evolved, I really think it's not evolving in a good way. And I could go on for a long time about that, but I don't know if that's really what we want to get into now. But even with my own practice, we are now owned by a much bigger corporation and it is a very, very
drastic in some ways change from what we had been used to. And so it does afford, I mean, we still have some of that same flexibility, but not nearly what it was. For me now, once again, my kids are grown, so things like that don't matter maybe as much. But I think that's one of the biggest things I would suggest to younger working moms in healthcare, physicians or otherwise, is to really, you know, explore the job possibilities and explore, you know,
what you're getting yourself into, so to speak, and if you're gonna have the ability to have some flexibility or a good work team around you where you can potentially shift things a little bit with each other. One last example there, we have an amazing staff of physician assistants, many of them working moms, mostly within their late 30s, early 40s, so younger kids, and they do an amazing job of just helping each other out. And again, within our group,
Adrienne Towsen (15:43.114)they all do a great job. So if someone needs to go for an event for their kid after school or a doctor's appointment or something, either they just let us know and we can work around the schedule or they'll work it out with each other, you know, and then someone else can come and kind of cover for them. So I think also the ability to have like a good team to work with is really helpful.
Amna Shabbir, MD (16:03.487)There's so much in there what you just shared. And I really, really want to highlight some points because as a younger physician, I think that one of the biggest issues I personally went through when I went part-time clinically was I am failing at so many levels. Like there's only one morally superior, correct way to practice medicine and that is to be full-time in academics. And that's what was my initial thought.
I mean, you leave training and like, that's what you think it is. And I felt like such a failure on so many levels as I transitioned and I had to get okay with that. And of course there was a journey that happened right there. So when you share your story, it models, recognition that we don't have to do it all alone and that it's okay to ask because we're even so scared to even ask. And that ask first begins inside your own mind. If you're so scared to even think,
that, okay, when flexibility, like, what does that even mean? But it's a really, really important question that we have to look at statistics and how women in healthcare are now going through their journey. So it's okay to ask and look for flexibility and you need a community. That aspect of perfectionism, outward perfectionism and this appearance that it's not just medicine, it's just the world we live in has drastically increased.
Adrienne Towsen (17:16.078)Absolutely.
Amna Shabbir, MD (17:28.861)And so as you look at what others are absorbing, the other focus, perfectionism and the social part of the perfectionism has drastically risen. So when we look around us and we expect that we're going to do it all ourselves, so we don't have to do it all. Nobody does it all by themselves. And looking for community is so important. And as you think of all of this, Dr. Towson, and there's
a younger clinician and they're going for this job interview and what would be like a good way to kind of assess how the support culture would be at a spot?
Adrienne Towsen (18:11.362)Yeah, I mean, that's a great question. think it's a little bit of a tough one, you know, perhaps.
So I think, I mean, I think it's important as much as possible if, you know, whether you're going to a community that you, if that's where you're from, if you know other people there, or even if you are trying to go someplace new, I think it's certainly important to talk to as many people as you can. I think it's very important to talk to, you know, certainly other physicians within the group, although you might feel like then you might get a sort of, you know, kind of a slanted picture a little bit.
but maybe other people, also like in the community, you know, possibly my situation, even when I joined my group that I'm with now 18 years ago, where the beatix can be tough, you know, for a woman, even now more so back then. and I was very fortunate to want to practice in an area where I knew a lot of people. So, you know, I'm in Westchester, not far from Philadelphia. had gone to medical school in Philadelphia.
I went out to Pittsburgh for my residency, but then I came back to Philadelphia for my fellowship. And so I knew a lot of people in this region. And one of my mentors, my true mentor who got me into orthopedics in the first place was one of the docs who was in my fellowship. And when I was looking to leave the little hospital near my house, because I knew it wasn't where I wanted to be for my career, he was extremely helpful and he was able to kind of like vet out people around and opportunities around.
that might not always be available for people, but I think we have enough connections. mean, certainly somebody's going to know somebody. I orthopedics is kind of a small world, maybe more so than some other specialties, but I think through people in your residency or your fellowship or places where you trained, med school even, you could kind of reach out to.
Adrienne Towsen (19:52.526)prior mentors and see who knows somebody in that area where you're looking. Because literally the words that came out of my mentor's mouth was, that is the only group I will let you join. Because those guys are great guys and you're gonna have a great experience and they're gonna be, again, they're gonna welcome you and then you're gonna be in a great place with good quality surgeons and good people. I feel like it's so important as a young person coming in to really be able to look to somebody who's there because you're not
you're not necessarily gonna get the right picture, the full picture, the true picture, simply from your interview with where you're going. And then again, I think from there though, with talking maybe with like an office manager or an administrator, you can, other than like the other doctors per se, you can have a better idea of what the true schedule could be or flexibility, what the options would be along those lines too.
Amna Shabbir, MD (20:47.731)Yeah, this mentorship piece is huge because a lot of the physicians that are now graduating, the one specialty that trained during the pandemic, this was a big piece that was missing. And I get to hear this all the time as I'm coaching early career clinicians. It's like, you know, the pandemic was happening and we were trying to survive. So I struggled to develop that deep mentorship during that time. So if we can now tap into that mentorship, absolutely. And for the senior...
Adrienne Towsen (21:01.454)Yeah.
Amna Shabbir, MD (21:17.471)clinicians, please being there for your younger colleagues can make such a big difference. One question I get asked often and there's a debate, there's always like copy based answers are usually not a good approach. What are your thoughts on talking to somebody who may have left the practice?
Adrienne Towsen (21:39.79)So you mean somebody who like.
(01:04):
Amna Shabbir, MD (21:43.231)who was at the practice, who was working and then left. And they're still local in the area or even if they're not local to the area. It's always a controversial kind of thought process because to get to that person, you might have to get the contacts from your potential future employer and how to kind of approach that.
Adrienne Towsen (22:04.05)Mm-hmm. So, I mean, somebody who has gone, I mean, yeah, it's a little bit of a, I haven't really had to deal with that, like specifically again, when I came in. So I actually came in and I was replacing somebody, but he was leaving because he wanted to go to, you know, California. He was going to join some friends. I did, and I was offered the opportunity to like talk to him, cause there was, you know, there was no bad blood or anything like that. So.
But it was still helpful to talk to him because I was coming in to really fill his specialty and kind of see what his thoughts were. Again, he had nothing but wonderful things to say about the group. He just wanted to relocate. So as far as talking to somebody who had left, that's a great question and it's a little bit tough. would say once again, even now, things like LinkedIn and other social media profiles, but specifically LinkedIn might be a good way to try to connect with somebody in that regard.
Because I think, you know, obviously it may not be the easiest to just ask for that information from the practice. I mean, you could certainly ask why not, you can, you know, certainly it's reasonable to say, you know, was there, what was the issue if there was an issue or, know, could I speak to that person just to hear their, their, you know, experience, but maybe something like a LinkedIn, you know, type situation might be a better way to reach out to somebody. But I think it'd be a smart thing to do for sure. Yeah.
Amna Shabbir, MD (23:25.439)That's a creative way to look at it because, and frankly, that's what I suggest as well, trying to find that little stepping stone where you can get some information. And then of course, you'll hear things as you talk to other people as well, the ones that are there and to try to piece together the story from your lens and your personal experience. And afterwards, when you interview, like we all have a gut reaction. One thing I always highlight is if you,
During the conversation afterwards, if you are getting so uncomfortable just asking basic questions or basic things, that might be a red flag right there that you're not comfortable with this group. They're not making you feel welcome. Those are really good points. What else would you, like anything that comes to your mind as we talk about struggles for women in healthcare? And one thing that I specifically have a question is schedule.
Adrienne Towsen (24:07.918)Right. Yeah.
Amna Shabbir, MD (24:22.737)and advocating for schedule flexibility, schedule change, any thoughts on that?
Adrienne Towsen (24:27.214)Yeah, sure. think, I mean, at its most basic, you know, kind of core, I think one of the biggest issues is like, you're just taking care of people nonstop. So I think that can be one thing that can be a little bit tough. And so I think, you know, trying to, you know, kind of leave your work at the door when you come home, which is very much easier said than done, you know, is one struggle that we face because again, depending on, know, whether you're a physician, PA, nurse, whatever it may be.
literally again, you're taking care of people in some way, or form all day and it can be rather exhausting. you you come home, I come home after seeing 30 patients in the office or doing six surgeries and sometimes particularly the office days can be a little bit more exhausting in some ways, cause they come home and I'm just like, I don't wanna talk anymore. I don't wanna like, you know, do anything else. I just wanna kind of like zone out for a little bit because I've just been talking to 30 plus people all day and hearing all their problems and you know, their pain and this and that.
Then when I come home, I now I come home, I live by myself now, my kids are grown, but like when I used to come home and the full house of my parents and my kids, sometimes it would be a little bit hard, you know, to kind of just put that away and be like, okay, now I'm in my next role and I need to take care of these people to whatever extent they need to be taken care of or just be there and like be a fun mom for a little bit, you know, because I've been gone all day. So I think it's hard, but I think it's important to just try to like, you know, kind of get your second wind and do what you need to do.
So then of course that does speak to the actual work hours and things that you can maybe adjust there. And again, I think there's a lot of opportunity to do that. mean, know plenty of other, whether it's our PAs like I mentioned, or some other working mom physicians who...
do, like take a half day off a week routinely or do some other adjustment to their schedule where they can have a little bit more balance like that and not always feel like they're kind of playing catch up, okay? Because that's what I think is the hardest thing. I had, like I said, I had that flexibility and I took it to an extent, but then also in my situation, once again, even though my partners were great, there is always that little feeling of like,
Adrienne Towsen (26:37.368)you're the only girl, like you're the mom, like you don't want to be different. You want to like, you know, carry your weight and, you know, be as productive as everyone else and, you know, hold up your end of the bargain, so to speak, which I always did. And if I look back, I'd say I probably could have done a little bit less and still been happy with my work and not have to feel like I was always like competing to make sure I was bringing in as much as everybody else per month or, you know, really put that pressure on myself.
So I think, you know, two things, one would be, you know, try to realize that, you know, even though you've taken care of people all day, the people that are waiting for you at home are the most important people. And then, you know, there is always some possibility for flexibility. And of course it may be easier in a physician's position to, you know, negotiate for that, but it's possible.
Amna Shabbir, MD (27:30.357)The questions that you don't ask or think of asking, the answer is always going to be no to those. Absolutely. That is such a great way to recognize our autonomy and that it starts with first asking. And this recognition too, I'm glad that you shared that you could have potentially worked a little bit less, but you felt that you had to, you know, build that external yardstick, which a lot of women feel compelled to get.
Adrienne Towsen (27:36.546)Exactly.
Amna Shabbir, MD (27:58.793)you we have to prove ourselves that we're worthy of being there. So being in recognition of that bias and is that driving you to not ask for things that you should be asking for?
Adrienne Towsen (28:00.48)Exactly.
Adrienne Towsen (28:10.99)Yeah, yeah, I I think for sure that can be a problem. I think, again, as a more senior surgeon now, it's hard for me sometimes to realize that I'm like the second most senior in my group right now. like, I don't know how that happened, but it did. And looking back, when I look at even the younger guys, I mean, we don't have any other women in my group. We have a large group, but my division of the group is.
still all male except for me. There are a couple other women surgeons in the bigger group that I'm part of, nonetheless, mean, even with the guys, even with the younger guys, you know, I still look at them and with their, you know, having kids and young kids and whatnot. And I encourage them to like, feel like sometimes I'm go, like go to your kids' soccer game, like go do these things, you know, and, and, and be with your family. Because I mean, that's, it's super important. Obviously you don't get that time back.
(01:25):
The flip side to that is I will say, my daughters are 22 and 24. And we have had the opportunity to have many conversations about their childhood and how they felt and if they felt like I wasn't around enough or things like that. And across the board, they will say, well, sure. mean, we remember sometimes maybe you couldn't be at something, but.
Really, 100%, we remember every time you were there. We remember all the times you came to our classroom. We remember all the class trips you chaperoned. We remember trips that we took on spring breaks or things like that. And again, I was very fortunate because we were living in a house with my parents. So when I wasn't there,
they were with people that loved them as much as I did. And they were in their house and my mom could go to school events and everything too if I couldn't be there. So again, a luxury I know a lot of people don't necessarily have, although I think a lot of people do. I think there's a lot of the grandparents helping out if they're in the same region, which is nice. But even though I feel like I probably could have worked a bit less and still been a good team player with my partners,
Adrienne Towsen (30:09.355)I will say I don't think my kids feel now as adults that they were in any way shape or form like neglected by my, you know, as a result of my.
Amna Shabbir, MD (30:18.773)That is so great to hear. And you know, it's this recognition that we are doing a great job and there's sometimes we can't get that answer. And the fact that your daughters are able to articulate that to you, it's so wholesome.
Adrienne Towsen (30:32.379)Yep. Yeah. Yeah. And I think that's what, mean, again, with the Working Mom platform too, is, you know, that's what gives me a unique or at least a different perspective as trying to look back. And I may not remember every detail of every phase of the, know, when they were really young, but I can really look back over, know, knowing how hard I worked, but also knowing what I did to make sure I was present as much as possible for my kids. And then seeing how...
they turned out as young adults and then, know, seeing, listening to their perspective now, it really does give me, you know, I feel like an easier way to like advise others and be like, look, I've done it and I can show you the results and then I can tell you, you know, from them, like what they actually say and what they feel and what they think about growing up with their mom as a surgeon.
Amna Shabbir, MD (31:17.119)the output and the results are right in front of us. And that's such a great way to be able to relate to that journey. This has been wonderful. So as we wrap up for today, what are some of your take-home points that you would like to share with other women clinicians that are early in their career from all your wisdom and your journey?
Adrienne Towsen (31:19.97)Mm-hmm.
Adrienne Towsen (31:24.12)Mm-hmm.
Adrienne Towsen (31:38.646)Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So I think again, number one, it can be done. And, know, there's definitely always a way where even if sometimes it just seems like a daunting task and you're never going to get through the day, there aren't enough hours in the day. There are, or there's tomorrow.
I mean, you don't necessarily have to do everything, you know, right in that moment. So kind of prioritizing things I think is important. think prioritizing, you know, what's most important for your kids, whether it be a certain school event or a certain after school event or whatever, and trying to adjust schedules accordingly. Maybe you can't get to everything, but maybe there's something that's more important than something else so you can arrange your schedule around that. So that would be one thing.
ask for help like we've already kind of said, know, you really can't and I was stubborn like that in the beginning to 100%, you know, single mom, orthopedic, I'm gonna do it, you know, I can do it by myself, I don't need help, but you do. And like, you know, I mean, you're gonna burn out, you know, quicker or quickly, you know, if you don't get some help and it's okay to ask for help. So I think that's another big thing. And then the other thing I would say is also,
without trying to wish your time away, think ahead a little bit. Whether it's, do you really want, if you're a surgeon or in a physician, is this what you want to do for the rest of your life? And you may not know that at the time. And so by no means do I want to recommend that somebody not plan to do this indefinitely or for their whole career. However, I would say like,
thinking of some other angles, diversifying a little bit, doing some other things perhaps, or at least exploring some other things such that if you get to like a bit of a burnout phase, which everyone can get to, even if they're doing everything right, you might have something else to kind of fall back on or think about. So I think also doctors are not.
Adrienne Towsen (33:27.5)you're generally super business smart. I think we're getting much better about that, you know, but also it might be worthwhile to just kind of, you know, plant some other seeds along the way so that, you know, if you're feeling like you're overwhelmed or you can't, you know, you can't do it all, maybe you'll have another avenue to travel.
Amna Shabbir, MD (33:44.073)Thank you so much for sharing those and it was a pleasure to have you on the show today.
Adrienne Towsen (33:48.383)Thank you so much. It was great to be here.
Amna Shabbir, MD (00:01.151)Hello and welcome to another episode of the Physician's Guide to Doctoring. I am your host, Dr. Amna Shabir, and today I have a very special guest with me, Dr. Adrienne Towson. Dr. Towson is an orthopedic surgeon specializing in shoulder and knee. She has been in practice in Westchester, Pennsylvania for 20 years. She was also a single mother with two young adult daughters. Six years ago, she discovered ballroom dancing, which quickly became a passion. She now competes internationally with her instructor.
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With the little bit of leftover time she has, she is the co-founder of The Working Mom, a platform to support moms working in healthcare. Welcome to the show, Dr. Towson, how are you?
Adrienne Towsen (00:40.805)I'm great. Thank you so much for having me.
Amna Shabbir, MD (00:43.057)Absolutely. So you are your surgeon and you're a professional dancer. I would love to hear your passion in what led you to where you are specifically now helping other working moms as well as professional ballroom dancing. I'm just very intrigued.
Adrienne Towsen (01:01.154)Yeah, okay, no problem. So technically I'm an amateur as far as the dancing goes, but I do dance with a professional dancer who is my teacher. So, you as you mentioned, I've been a surgeon for 20 years in practice and my kids are now grown. So what led me initially into the dancing was just looking for something else to do for myself once my kids were older. So I'm a single mom, have stayed single, was single from when my kids were about one and three.
So once they got older, like high school age, I started thinking there's gonna be a void. I really just focused so much on my work and my kids that I thought once they're heading off to college or even in high school as they're more independent, I'm gonna need to find something else to do. Huge fans of watching dancing. We watched the show, Dancing with the Stars and all of that over many years. And I thought, well, I would really love to do that. Was never a dancer before. Didn't really dance like growing up or anything like that.
played other sports. But then I got introduced to it just from a social dancing standpoint. And there's a studio not far from where I work. And one of my partners and his wife used to go there. He's like, you should go and try it. It's really fun. So I went just to learn a little bit. And then I got introduced to the competition aspect of it. And I was hooked. So then I just got matched up with my teacher, who is still my teacher now.
six years later and we had developed a nice partnership and then there's this whole world of pro-am competitions where teachers dance with their students. It's huge. I had no idea. I've learned a lot about it now and it's been a big part of my life ever since and we just developed really nice partnership and it just became a passion. I just was absolutely hooked. Love the challenge that it is.
way harder than it looks. So definitely became something that was just super fun to do. A bit of a challenge to learn something new. I I started learning at age 46. So I really hadn't done something new in a long time. And then it's just a different world. It's hair and makeup and dresses and just fun. And there's a good bit of travel with it for me now too, which is super exciting. And it just became something that I decided.
Adrienne Towsen (03:14.19)This is what I'm going to dedicate my free time to and I just love it.
Amna Shabbir, MD (03:20.425)So much in there. Thank you for sharing that part. I mean, it's incredible that you don't not only have this amazing professional career, you've decided to pick up this. I mean, not even a hobby that is more safe. You you're on stage, you're out there. It's it's athletic. It's all those things. And you started at forty six. How inspirational is that?
Adrienne Towsen (03:36.779)Yeah.
Adrienne Towsen (03:45.932)Yeah, thanks. Yeah, it was, I will say it took me way out of my comfort zone. I definitely was not, you know, one who is easily, I mean, I'm in front of people, in front of my patients. I can talk to people all day long. I can do what I do. But this is, as you said, completely different. And I'm a little bit more reserved by nature. So then getting out on that floor and, you know, having to be a little bit more like sexy at times and do certain dances and do things that are just, again, not what my day to day is like at all.
I was, it was tough at first. It took me a while to kind of break out of my shell as far as the performance aspect of it goes, but it was fascinating to really learn the technical aspects of the dances. I do many different dances and we compete in some different styles.
And then getting into the competition world, really hadn't also done anything like that in a while. I played sports when I was younger, but it was fun to have that competitive drive again too. And then developed a really nice relationship with my teacher. He's one of my best friends now. He lives in Italy, so that's a whole nother piece of it. We do a long distance thing now because he was in the US for a little while, but not anymore. So we kept our partnership together and it's pretty unique.
what we do to keep it together considering I live in Pennsylvania and he lives in Tuscany. So we do a lot of lessons by Zoom and we see each other about four or five times a year for about a week or 10 days at a time and do a pretty intense week of training and then usually do a competition at the end of that week. So it's again, not the traditional way to do it necessarily, but it works for us now.
Amna Shabbir, MD (05:24.873)This is, again, not to sound repetitive, but inspiring on so many levels because as physicians, what we get told is the very limited worldview and you do best at one specific thing and you just keep doing that. And here you are absolutely modeling how the world can open up to what you can do, diversify yourself as a human. Just like this wholesome picture of not just
you in the OR, but also you on the dance floor and making it work despite having this long distance relationship with your partner, having that happen and just making it work.
Adrienne Towsen (06:00.558)Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I often, always would say, you know, if it matters to you, you'll find a way. And that was kind of what happened with us because he ended up going home around, you know, COVID time and then he stayed home and we didn't necessarily think, I didn't think he was going to come and live in the U.S. So we figured at some point there would be a disruption or something we would have to figure out if we wanted to keep dancing together. And it came a little sooner than we thought with COVID.
but it kind of then forced us into again, just finding that way. So, we had already devoted a couple of years to our partnership and I was again, fully like, it was my passion at that point already, and so it's only been magnified since then. And a lot of people ask me, why don't you just find a teacher here, do something, make a change, which certainly you could and a lot of people will change teachers at various times, but.
we had a special connection and we, know, he devoted a lot of time to teaching me because I knew nothing when we started. look back at some of the early pictures and videos and I'm like, like, I don't even know how he saw any potential in me when we started. so it was a journey for both of us and he put a lot of time and effort into turning me into a dancer. And, and then we just decided we wanted to, you know, find a way to continue. we did. Yeah.
Amna Shabbir, MD (07:18.197)Mentorship, it's like mentorship, partnership, creativity, all wrapped up into one. So you're a surgeon and you are a dancer and you also have a platform, The Working Mom. Share your journey into the platform and what it does basically.
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Adrienne Towsen (07:23.404)Yeah, for sure.
Adrienne Towsen (07:29.26)Yes.
Adrienne Towsen (07:34.286)Yep.
Adrienne Towsen (07:40.712)Absolutely. So we're still honestly in the fairly early stages of this. it became, it came to be, I should say, because my best friend who is a vascular surgery physician assistant, her name is Lisa, and I started brainstorming probably about five years ago thinking we need to do something else because we were actually facing both of us a little bit of kind of burnout in medicine at that
So if you're five years ago, I was in practice for 15 years at that point. She's a little younger than I am, but still, you know, definitely feeling like this may not be what I want to do all the way into like true retirement age. So is there something else I can do? Is there some other way I can use, you know, my current skill set, maybe something else in the medical field, or can we do something entirely different? So we brainstormed a lot of ideas.
drank a lot of wine, tried to figure out if any of these things would stick and then many of them didn't. And then we thought, well, what else do we do other than medicine? Like we were moms and know, my kids are adults now. She has one daughter who's 16. And so we figured we've gone through many of the phases that women face of raising kids and then also trying to be working at the same time, specifically in healthcare of course is what we know, but a lot of what we're thinking could certainly apply to other fields as well.
So then we thought, okay, maybe we can figure out a way to just, you know, lend some support or help moms with through our experiences. Because often I would get asked like, wow, like how did you do it? You know, you're a single mom, you have these two amazing kids, not to be a little biased, but anybody who knows my kids, they really are amazing human beings. And I didn't do it without help. And I think that's one of the main, our main like, you know, statements is that, you know, you really do need,
They always say, you know, it takes a village and it kind of does. I mean, you definitely need some help with that. But we figured that through our experiences, we could offer guidance, we could offer suggestions, we could try to maybe demystify that working mom guilt a little bit and try to offer, you know, our experiences to other younger moms or even moms at whatever stage of the game they were in.
Adrienne Towsen (09:44.974)So initially it just started out as a blog and that's pretty much what we've done. We started this in 2020 actually, but it's been very much a side, you know, kind of side hustle or however you want to describe it for both of us, because we still have very full-time jobs and you know, do other things. But our goal through the blog and now we're writing a series of handbooks. We've written the first one. It's soon to be hopefully finished and work toward publishing maybe beginning of next year.
to try to just kind of go through all the different aspects of, you know, being not only a single working mom, but being a working mom in healthcare with some of the specific things with long hours and shift work and being on call and all of the taking care of people all day long and then trying to also take care of your kids, maybe even take care of yourself a little bit, but all of those aspects, you know, and what our kind of strategies are that we've used, what we've done and how we were successful and how we weren't, you know, to try to offer some guidance.
Ideally into the future, we'd love to do like some retreats and other things, maybe some events. We've gone to a few expos and things like that so far, but basically right now we're pretty much a blog and then we have some presence, some social media presence, but the books are our next plan.
Amna Shabbir, MD (10:59.123)Wonderful. And you mentioned work, all of this and kind of pausing here and backtracking a little bit. As a surgeon, being in healthcare, I would love to hear your reflections and insights into what are some of the top challenges that working women in healthcare are facing these days.
Adrienne Towsen (11:00.002)Yeah.
Adrienne Towsen (11:07.288)Yeah.
Adrienne Towsen (11:21.458)Yeah, absolutely. So, you know, my career has sort of evolved over a few different aspects of being actually in the same group, but going through some different ways that that group has been managed or run over the years. So I started in my very first job. I have had two jobs total since my fellowship. My very first job, I was actually employed at a hospital for just two years, little hospital, very close to my house.
And my kids were very young, so that worked out. So I think, you know, certain things to think about would be what does the job really entail? know, is it, you know, how much call is it? What are the expectations for the day to day? Do you have flexibility? Because that was huge for me. When I was, my first job was hospital employee, I still had a little bit of flexibility because it was a tiny hospital and not super busy.
But nonetheless, I had a boss for sure. And then when I joined my, two years later, I joined the group that I'm presently with. So I've been with my group for 18 years, small private practice, amazing community, had been in the community for already like 20 years before I joined. So they had a great reputation. And even though was the only first and only woman in that group, and I've dealt with that all through my training and everything.
The guys were just fantastic. So all of them, with kids themselves, at different stages of that, many of them with wives who worked, and they understood my situation and they basically said, do what you need to do. So I was able to be in a supportive group where I could make my hours kind of what I wanted. mean, of course I had to pull my weight and do what I needed to do and be on call when I needed to be on call.
But I was still able to come in a little bit later if I wanted to take my kids to school on an office hour day. When my kids were younger and in elementary school, I took the first Wednesday of every month off and that was my day to go volunteer in their school. I chaperoned as many class trips as I could. I did those things, but I had the flexibility to do that. So I think private practice, in my opinion, that holds just a special place in my heart that that's the way to go. Unfortunately, if you fast forward now,
Adrienne Towsen (13:30.747)It's much harder to be in a private practice in the way we were 15 years ago. So I think it's still out there and there's still possibilities and there's lots of things and lots of different situations people can find. But I do think that flexibility is key and depending on your specialty, it could be harder or easier. think having obviously a support system around you is key. I was very lucky that
Even though I was single, my parents were very available for me and we actually lived as a three generation household for nearly 20 years. So that was huge. And I know everybody doesn't have that luxury. So I think if you don't necessarily have family support or something as let's say, quote unquote, easy as that. So important to, you know, find other, some other type of support with, you know, even if it's just a daycare center or whatever it needs to be, you know, that, that it can work with your.
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your hours or that you can work your hours around what you need for that. And then as healthcare has evolved, I really think it's not evolving in a good way. And I could go on for a long time about that, but I don't know if that's really what we want to get into now. But even with my own practice, we are now owned by a much bigger corporation and it is a very, very
drastic in some ways change from what we had been used to. And so it does afford, I mean, we still have some of that same flexibility, but not nearly what it was. For me now, once again, my kids are grown, so things like that don't matter maybe as much. But I think that's one of the biggest things I would suggest to younger working moms in healthcare, physicians or otherwise, is to really, you know, explore the job possibilities and explore, you know,
what you're getting yourself into, so to speak, and if you're gonna have the ability to have some flexibility or a good work team around you where you can potentially shift things a little bit with each other. One last example there, we have an amazing staff of physician assistants, many of them working moms, mostly within their late 30s, early 40s, so younger kids, and they do an amazing job of just helping each other out. And again, within our group,
Adrienne Towsen (15:43.114)they all do a great job. So if someone needs to go for an event for their kid after school or a doctor's appointment or something, either they just let us know and we can work around the schedule or they'll work it out with each other, you know, and then someone else can come and kind of cover for them. So I think also the ability to have like a good team to work with is really helpful.
Amna Shabbir, MD (16:03.487)There's so much in there what you just shared. And I really, really want to highlight some points because as a younger physician, I think that one of the biggest issues I personally went through when I went part-time clinically was I am failing at so many levels. Like there's only one morally superior, correct way to practice medicine and that is to be full-time in academics. And that's what was my initial thought.
I mean, you leave training and like, that's what you think it is. And I felt like such a failure on so many levels as I transitioned and I had to get okay with that. And of course there was a journey that happened right there. So when you share your story, it models, recognition that we don't have to do it all alone and that it's okay to ask because we're even so scared to even ask. And that ask first begins inside your own mind. If you're so scared to even think,
that, okay, when flexibility, like, what does that even mean? But it's a really, really important question that we have to look at statistics and how women in healthcare are now going through their journey. So it's okay to ask and look for flexibility and you need a community. That aspect of perfectionism, outward perfectionism and this appearance that it's not just medicine, it's just the world we live in has drastically increased.
Adrienne Towsen (17:16.078)Absolutely.
Amna Shabbir, MD (17:28.861)And so as you look at what others are absorbing, the other focus, perfectionism and the social part of the perfectionism has drastically risen. So when we look around us and we expect that we're going to do it all ourselves, so we don't have to do it all. Nobody does it all by themselves. And looking for community is so important. And as you think of all of this, Dr. Towson, and there's
a younger clinician and they're going for this job interview and what would be like a good way to kind of assess how the support culture would be at a spot?
Adrienne Towsen (18:11.362)Yeah, I mean, that's a great question. think it's a little bit of a tough one, you know, perhaps.
So I think, I mean, I think it's important as much as possible if, you know, whether you're going to a community that you, if that's where you're from, if you know other people there, or even if you are trying to go someplace new, I think it's certainly important to talk to as many people as you can. I think it's very important to talk to, you know, certainly other physicians within the group, although you might feel like then you might get a sort of, you know, kind of a slanted picture a little bit.
but maybe other people, also like in the community, you know, possibly my situation, even when I joined my group that I'm with now 18 years ago, where the beatix can be tough, you know, for a woman, even now more so back then. and I was very fortunate to want to practice in an area where I knew a lot of people. So, you know, I'm in Westchester, not far from Philadelphia. had gone to medical school in Philadelphia.
I went out to Pittsburgh for my residency, but then I came back to Philadelphia for my fellowship. And so I knew a lot of people in this region. And one of my mentors, my true mentor who got me into orthopedics in the first place was one of the docs who was in my fellowship. And when I was looking to leave the little hospital near my house, because I knew it wasn't where I wanted to be for my career, he was extremely helpful and he was able to kind of like vet out people around and opportunities around.
that might not always be available for people, but I think we have enough connections. mean, certainly somebody's going to know somebody. I orthopedics is kind of a small world, maybe more so than some other specialties, but I think through people in your residency or your fellowship or places where you trained, med school even, you could kind of reach out to.
Adrienne Towsen (19:52.526)prior mentors and see who knows somebody in that area where you're looking. Because literally the words that came out of my mentor's mouth was, that is the only group I will let you join. Because those guys are great guys and you're gonna have a great experience and they're gonna be, again, they're gonna welcome you and then you're gonna be in a great place with good quality surgeons and good people. I feel like it's so important as a young person coming in to really be able to look to somebody who's there because you're not
you're not necessarily gonna get the right picture, the full picture, the true picture, simply from your interview with where you're going. And then again, I think from there though, with talking maybe with like an office manager or an administrator, you can, other than like the other doctors per se, you can have a better idea of what the true schedule could be or flexibility, what the options would be along those lines too.
Amna Shabbir, MD (20:47.731)Yeah, this mentorship piece is huge because a lot of the physicians that are now graduating, the one specialty that trained during the pandemic, this was a big piece that was missing. And I get to hear this all the time as I'm coaching early career clinicians. It's like, you know, the pandemic was happening and we were trying to survive. So I struggled to develop that deep mentorship during that time. So if we can now tap into that mentorship, absolutely. And for the senior...
Adrienne Towsen (21:01.454)Yeah.
Amna Shabbir, MD (21:17.471)clinicians, please being there for your younger colleagues can make such a big difference. One question I get asked often and there's a debate, there's always like copy based answers are usually not a good approach. What are your thoughts on talking to somebody who may have left the practice?
Adrienne Towsen (21:39.79)So you mean somebody who like.
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Amna Shabbir, MD (21:43.231)who was at the practice, who was working and then left. And they're still local in the area or even if they're not local to the area. It's always a controversial kind of thought process because to get to that person, you might have to get the contacts from your potential future employer and how to kind of approach that.
Adrienne Towsen (22:04.05)Mm-hmm. So, I mean, somebody who has gone, I mean, yeah, it's a little bit of a, I haven't really had to deal with that, like specifically again, when I came in. So I actually came in and I was replacing somebody, but he was leaving because he wanted to go to, you know, California. He was going to join some friends. I did, and I was offered the opportunity to like talk to him, cause there was, you know, there was no bad blood or anything like that. So.
But it was still helpful to talk to him because I was coming in to really fill his specialty and kind of see what his thoughts were. Again, he had nothing but wonderful things to say about the group. He just wanted to relocate. So as far as talking to somebody who had left, that's a great question and it's a little bit tough. would say once again, even now, things like LinkedIn and other social media profiles, but specifically LinkedIn might be a good way to try to connect with somebody in that regard.
Because I think, you know, obviously it may not be the easiest to just ask for that information from the practice. I mean, you could certainly ask why not, you can, you know, certainly it's reasonable to say, you know, was there, what was the issue if there was an issue or, know, could I speak to that person just to hear their, their, you know, experience, but maybe something like a LinkedIn, you know, type situation might be a better way to reach out to somebody. But I think it'd be a smart thing to do for sure. Yeah.
Amna Shabbir, MD (23:25.439)That's a creative way to look at it because, and frankly, that's what I suggest as well, trying to find that little stepping stone where you can get some information. And then of course, you'll hear things as you talk to other people as well, the ones that are there and to try to piece together the story from your lens and your personal experience. And afterwards, when you interview, like we all have a gut reaction. One thing I always highlight is if you,
During the conversation afterwards, if you are getting so uncomfortable just asking basic questions or basic things, that might be a red flag right there that you're not comfortable with this group. They're not making you feel welcome. Those are really good points. What else would you, like anything that comes to your mind as we talk about struggles for women in healthcare? And one thing that I specifically have a question is schedule.
Adrienne Towsen (24:07.918)Right. Yeah.
Amna Shabbir, MD (24:22.737)and advocating for schedule flexibility, schedule change, any thoughts on that?
Adrienne Towsen (24:27.214)Yeah, sure. think, I mean, at its most basic, you know, kind of core, I think one of the biggest issues is like, you're just taking care of people nonstop. So I think that can be one thing that can be a little bit tough. And so I think, you know, trying to, you know, kind of leave your work at the door when you come home, which is very much easier said than done, you know, is one struggle that we face because again, depending on, know, whether you're a physician, PA, nurse, whatever it may be.
literally again, you're taking care of people in some way, or form all day and it can be rather exhausting. you you come home, I come home after seeing 30 patients in the office or doing six surgeries and sometimes particularly the office days can be a little bit more exhausting in some ways, cause they come home and I'm just like, I don't wanna talk anymore. I don't wanna like, you know, do anything else. I just wanna kind of like zone out for a little bit because I've just been talking to 30 plus people all day and hearing all their problems and you know, their pain and this and that.
Then when I come home, I now I come home, I live by myself now, my kids are grown, but like when I used to come home and the full house of my parents and my kids, sometimes it would be a little bit hard, you know, to kind of just put that away and be like, okay, now I'm in my next role and I need to take care of these people to whatever extent they need to be taken care of or just be there and like be a fun mom for a little bit, you know, because I've been gone all day. So I think it's hard, but I think it's important to just try to like, you know, kind of get your second wind and do what you need to do.
So then of course that does speak to the actual work hours and things that you can maybe adjust there. And again, I think there's a lot of opportunity to do that. mean, know plenty of other, whether it's our PAs like I mentioned, or some other working mom physicians who...
do, like take a half day off a week routinely or do some other adjustment to their schedule where they can have a little bit more balance like that and not always feel like they're kind of playing catch up, okay? Because that's what I think is the hardest thing. I had, like I said, I had that flexibility and I took it to an extent, but then also in my situation, once again, even though my partners were great, there is always that little feeling of like,
Adrienne Towsen (26:37.368)you're the only girl, like you're the mom, like you don't want to be different. You want to like, you know, carry your weight and, you know, be as productive as everyone else and, you know, hold up your end of the bargain, so to speak, which I always did. And if I look back, I'd say I probably could have done a little bit less and still been happy with my work and not have to feel like I was always like competing to make sure I was bringing in as much as everybody else per month or, you know, really put that pressure on myself.
So I think, you know, two things, one would be, you know, try to realize that, you know, even though you've taken care of people all day, the people that are waiting for you at home are the most important people. And then, you know, there is always some possibility for flexibility. And of course it may be easier in a physician's position to, you know, negotiate for that, but it's possible.
Amna Shabbir, MD (27:30.357)The questions that you don't ask or think of asking, the answer is always going to be no to those. Absolutely. That is such a great way to recognize our autonomy and that it starts with first asking. And this recognition too, I'm glad that you shared that you could have potentially worked a little bit less, but you felt that you had to, you know, build that external yardstick, which a lot of women feel compelled to get.
Adrienne Towsen (27:36.546)Exactly.
Amna Shabbir, MD (27:58.793)you we have to prove ourselves that we're worthy of being there. So being in recognition of that bias and is that driving you to not ask for things that you should be asking for?
Adrienne Towsen (28:00.48)Exactly.
Adrienne Towsen (28:10.99)Yeah, yeah, I I think for sure that can be a problem. I think, again, as a more senior surgeon now, it's hard for me sometimes to realize that I'm like the second most senior in my group right now. like, I don't know how that happened, but it did. And looking back, when I look at even the younger guys, I mean, we don't have any other women in my group. We have a large group, but my division of the group is.
still all male except for me. There are a couple other women surgeons in the bigger group that I'm part of, nonetheless, mean, even with the guys, even with the younger guys, you know, I still look at them and with their, you know, having kids and young kids and whatnot. And I encourage them to like, feel like sometimes I'm go, like go to your kids' soccer game, like go do these things, you know, and, and, and be with your family. Because I mean, that's, it's super important. Obviously you don't get that time back.
(01:25):
The flip side to that is I will say, my daughters are 22 and 24. And we have had the opportunity to have many conversations about their childhood and how they felt and if they felt like I wasn't around enough or things like that. And across the board, they will say, well, sure. mean, we remember sometimes maybe you couldn't be at something, but.
Really, 100%, we remember every time you were there. We remember all the times you came to our classroom. We remember all the class trips you chaperoned. We remember trips that we took on spring breaks or things like that. And again, I was very fortunate because we were living in a house with my parents. So when I wasn't there,
they were with people that loved them as much as I did. And they were in their house and my mom could go to school events and everything too if I couldn't be there. So again, a luxury I know a lot of people don't necessarily have, although I think a lot of people do. I think there's a lot of the grandparents helping out if they're in the same region, which is nice. But even though I feel like I probably could have worked a bit less and still been a good team player with my partners,
Adrienne Towsen (30:09.355)I will say I don't think my kids feel now as adults that they were in any way shape or form like neglected by my, you know, as a result of my.
Amna Shabbir, MD (30:18.773)That is so great to hear. And you know, it's this recognition that we are doing a great job and there's sometimes we can't get that answer. And the fact that your daughters are able to articulate that to you, it's so wholesome.
Adrienne Towsen (30:32.379)Yep. Yeah. Yeah. And I think that's what, mean, again, with the Working Mom platform too, is, you know, that's what gives me a unique or at least a different perspective as trying to look back. And I may not remember every detail of every phase of the, know, when they were really young, but I can really look back over, know, knowing how hard I worked, but also knowing what I did to make sure I was present as much as possible for my kids. And then seeing how...
they turned out as young adults and then, know, seeing, listening to their perspective now, it really does give me, you know, I feel like an easier way to like advise others and be like, look, I've done it and I can show you the results and then I can tell you, you know, from them, like what they actually say and what they feel and what they think about growing up with their mom as a surgeon.
Amna Shabbir, MD (31:17.119)the output and the results are right in front of us. And that's such a great way to be able to relate to that journey. This has been wonderful. So as we wrap up for today, what are some of your take-home points that you would like to share with other women clinicians that are early in their career from all your wisdom and your journey?
Adrienne Towsen (31:19.97)Mm-hmm.
Adrienne Towsen (31:24.12)Mm-hmm.
Adrienne Towsen (31:38.646)Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So I think again, number one, it can be done. And, know, there's definitely always a way where even if sometimes it just seems like a daunting task and you're never going to get through the day, there aren't enough hours in the day. There are, or there's tomorrow.
I mean, you don't necessarily have to do everything, you know, right in that moment. So kind of prioritizing things I think is important. think prioritizing, you know, what's most important for your kids, whether it be a certain school event or a certain after school event or whatever, and trying to adjust schedules accordingly. Maybe you can't get to everything, but maybe there's something that's more important than something else so you can arrange your schedule around that. So that would be one thing.
ask for help like we've already kind of said, know, you really can't and I was stubborn like that in the beginning to 100%, you know, single mom, orthopedic, I'm gonna do it, you know, I can do it by myself, I don't need help, but you do. And like, you know, I mean, you're gonna burn out, you know, quicker or quickly, you know, if you don't get some help and it's okay to ask for help. So I think that's another big thing. And then the other thing I would say is also,
without trying to wish your time away, think ahead a little bit. Whether it's, do you really want, if you're a surgeon or in a physician, is this what you want to do for the rest of your life? And you may not know that at the time. And so by no means do I want to recommend that somebody not plan to do this indefinitely or for their whole career. However, I would say like,
thinking of some other angles, diversifying a little bit, doing some other things perhaps, or at least exploring some other things such that if you get to like a bit of a burnout phase, which everyone can get to, even if they're doing everything right, you might have something else to kind of fall back on or think about. So I think also doctors are not.
Adrienne Towsen (33:27.5)you're generally super business smart. I think we're getting much better about that, you know, but also it might be worthwhile to just kind of, you know, plant some other seeds along the way so that, you know, if you're feeling like you're overwhelmed or you can't, you know, you can't do it all, maybe you'll have another avenue to travel.
Amna Shabbir, MD (33:44.073)Thank you so much for sharing those and it was a pleasure to have you on the show today.
Adrienne Towsen (33:48.383)Thank you so much. It was great to be here.
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