July 10, 2025 • 31 mins
Red Bull Racing made the shock announcement on Wednesday that it had sacked CEO and team principal Christian Horner immediately in what can only be seen as the intolerable culmination of factors that have chipped away at the team's competitiveness — including agitation from Max Verstappen's management.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hello, and welcome to Pit Talk, brought to you by Shannon's.
(00:03):
On today's episode, Christian Horner has been sacked as CEO
and team principal of Red Bull Racing after two decades
in the job, in a seismic day for Formula One,
just when it was meant to be taking a break.
To my name's Michael Lobonado. It's great to have your
company and the company of my co host. He's put
his empty Red Bull can outside the front of his door.
Speaker 2 (00:21):
It's Matt Clayton, straight into the recycling. No use for that, Nimo,
Michael Vice. Everything comes to an end red Bull cans
and a Red Bull Formula one team principles apparently. But look,
I don't know about you, but I think maybe for
the last out of twelve to eighteen months, the fact
that this has happened is maybe not a surprise, but
I think maybe the timing of it is a surprise,
and I'm sure we'll cover that in the next twenty
(00:42):
minutes or so.
Speaker 1 (00:43):
Yeah, it's sort of a it's not so much a
question of why, although obviously the question of why is
still to be resolved, but we can fill in a
lot of those blanks. The question of why now is
a little bit more difficult, but that leads us into
what I think is almost most remarkable about this news
is just how hard to see coming despite the fact
that Horner clearly has had a lot of internal enemies
(01:03):
at the team. The speculation of a Maxisappen's future will
touch on all of this, but it's very rare in
Formula one for there to be any secrets when it
comes to news. The last genuinely big secret I can
think of was Nico Rosberg's retirement. Yes, that's because he
announced it himself when he decided, and that was in person,
in public. He didn't really have to tell anyone beforehand.
(01:24):
This was a genuine shock out of the blue. There
was no warning that this was coming.
Speaker 2 (01:28):
No, because I don't think there's been anything particularly on
track that's been so significant in the short term that
makes you think, well, that is the final tipping point.
So it goes back to the why of this decision.
We know what's happened now, but is it a performance
related tipping point? What's the urgency for this? Because it
strikes me as being a little bit odd. You know,
(01:49):
we've not made it to the mid season break, yet
that seems like it would be a more sensible period
to perhaps make a change like this. But the key
thing for me is we're so deep into twenty twenty
five now, the second half of this season. We know
it's not half of a calendar year. It goes very
very quickly with all the back to backs. We've got
a completely new look Formula one coming up in twenty
twenty six, and one of the biggest players in the
(02:12):
sport over two distinct periods over two decades is now
out the door at a time of enormous uncertainty in
the sport, let alone within that team. And I think
that's the significant part of this. The timing and why
now is the most interesting part, as opposed to why
he's actually gone in the first place.
Speaker 1 (02:30):
Yeah, it seems like, I mean, we can kind we
can describe perhaps two trigger points for this decision being made.
One we can infer quite easily because we've known for
the last well essentially since Dietrich Matters has died in
twenty twenty two, which created the power vacuum that created
all the factional warfare that we've been enjoying or braced
for for the last couple of years. Is that Horner's
(02:52):
counted the backing of the time majority ownership of Red
Bull in his corner, and that's kind of been his
trump card. That's been the thing that's protected him against
all the pressure from inside and also a semi externally
from the staff and camp from else with staff in particular.
We can only assume now that that has evaporated that
what the culbination of situations, the combinations and motivations to
(03:14):
remove him from his post have now overcome that support
have been enough for that support to waiver or fade
away and motivate the change. So we know that, But
it's the culmination of all those other little things that
I think are interesting, and I think if we want
to try and deduce some of the reasons or where
these reasons are coming from, we have to go back
to that timing. As you say, it's sort of like
(03:36):
the timing of right now is has to be quite specific.
Right because it was anything to do with a controversy
he brings to the team by personality, by the investigation
to him last year, you would have done it last year.
If it was about performance, you would surely wait till
the end of the year, or at a minimum the
mid season break, because this season says so much time
to play out. We don't know if fred Boo can
(03:57):
turn this year around or potentially next year when we
know whether or not the gamble's Christian Horner has made
on strategizing for Red Bull's new future will pay off,
or whether the engine will be no good, in which
case you can draw a line under it. The timing
for this to me, Matt suggests that it must be
Verstappen related because it's the only significant Red Bull news
item that has been rocking the team for the last
(04:18):
month now.
Speaker 2 (04:19):
Yeah, And I think there's one of two ways you
can look at this. It's like, could this be a
case of the Verstapen camp saying, well, if he doesn't go,
then we will and we know that there's offers out
there with Mercedes, Or is the reason that Christian Horner
has gone is because they already know that Max Vstappen
has already gone, which is a completely different conversation for
that team going forward for twenty twenty six. It's always
(04:39):
going it's already going to be a big difference with
no Christian Horner at the helm. But could you imagine
a red Bull racing right now with no Horner running
it and no Vastapan driving for it. What's the stat
I think vastapan'scored ninety seven percent of that team poids
this year or some You know, you may as well
just enter one car, as Sir Jepero is intimated they did.
But to my mind, it's got to be one of
(05:00):
those two things, because there's nothing significant that's happened to
perhaps accelerate this story in the recent past. But you
mentioned something earlier about the death of Detric Matterships in
October twenty twenty two, and you know, once there was
a respectable period of moarning for something like this, there's
always going to be a power struggle going on behind
the scenes. I do wonder if this decision was inevitable
(05:24):
from quite a long while ago. But the fact that
in twenty twenty three they won all but one race,
and in twenty twenty four they won the World Championship
kind of backed their way into it after the first
half of the season was so good. But they won
the championship nonetheless, so the end justified the means. You know,
you still come out of those two seasons with two
drivers championships and one constructors title. I wonder, now finally
(05:45):
some of the issues that maybe were prevalent at the
end of twenty twenty two have come home to roost,
because you can look at these points tables now and
they're clearly not winning either the championship this year. Was
this just the inevitable outcome of what happened at the
end of twenty twenty two and we've just moved this,
you know, move the goalposts on this because they kept
winning for a while until they didn't. I wonder if
that's part of this too.
Speaker 1 (06:05):
Yeah, because it's important to recognize, isn't it that this
team was run in a relatively unusual way by Formula
One stands all the teams are quite different now because
they're huge structures with different ownerships and all that kind
of thing. But Dietrich Mattershits ensured this team was funded
very well, that had everything it needed, but never really
intervened in the running of It was in the background
and users required of and around driver signings and things
(06:28):
like that. But really it was the team that Christian
Horner was allowed to run as he saw fit with
a relatively long leash via Helbert Marco, the motorsport advisor,
essentially liaised between Red Bull the business and Red Bull's
Formula One team, but that obviously couldn't continue after Matterschitz's
death because he was no longer there, to put it frankly,
and it also changed the way Red Bull operated. It's
(06:49):
now obviously much less centered around one figure. It operates
more conventionally with a variety of different chief executives. The
ownership or the forty nine percent ownerships passed down to
Gratituate's son, but I don't think he really has any
executive control over the company, or at least not in
the Formula one sense. So just by virtue of that
top down direction, changing the way that Christian Horna was
(07:13):
allowed to run the team as his own team was
always going to change because it isn't his team. At
the end of the day, he's the team brinctal, he's
the CEO, but he doesn't own it, and inevitably there
were going to be people trying to fill those spaces.
And it does seem like Matt that for the last
three years, I suppose two years since that time, Horner
had largely won his own way. He runs a lot
of the team, not just the team now as well,
(07:34):
but a lot of the technical enterprises power trains has
been started in that time. But he runs that exerts
a lot of control at racing bulls now as well.
It's much more an arm of red bull racing, I
suppose than it was in the past. And as a result,
you know, you talk about how these decisions he's made
are coming home to roost, it really does feel like
(07:57):
a lot of them are on his shoulders. Were he
made that have now sort of spiraled out of control
and come back to bite him. You know, realities had
to hit eventually.
Speaker 2 (08:06):
I do like it how you refer to all of
those things in the present tense. And I'm not blaming
you for that, because we're just so used to Christian
hornerbeg sononymous with running all of these things, and we
know we now have to go with the oh, he
ran those things past tense, so we have to get
our tenses right, which is a strange thing to say,
but I guess what you're saying before in terms of
this one man in the situation, one person having so
(08:27):
much influence and so much control. This is a throwback
to the era in which he came up, because you know,
he's been Rebels team only team principal from two thousand
and five onwards. And you look at Formula one two
thousand and five, when he came in as a team principal,
he was barely at he thirties, and a lot of
the old dogs that were team principals at that point
really didn't take him or the team particularly seriously because
(08:48):
you had big, big names and big personalities and really
fearsome people running these teams like Ron Dennis and Jean
Todd and Sir Frank Williams and that real old guard
of Formula one Horneer looked like the kids who was
a work experience at that time really didn't fit in
the team was not really taken seriously at all. It
looked like they were just there to move some cans
(09:08):
and have a good time basically. And it's what's interesting
is that he has now become the big dog that
they were. But you're running a team. Sorry, he ran
a team past, Yes, he ran a team in a
very very sort of two thousand and five to ten way.
In twenty twenty five, where Formula one has become much
much bigger, much more corporate the structures of these leadership groups.
(09:32):
It's not just one person calling the shots in just
about any one of these. They report to boards, they
have a lot of underlings to them. He was still
running the team in an old school way, So it's
funny he was so anti establishment and the team was
anti establishment when he came in, and they became the
establishment in a lot of respects. They became the outlier
because they were run differently to everybody else. It was
(09:53):
the same way in two thousand and five. It's just
a different type of different, isn't it.
Speaker 1 (09:57):
Yeah, And it is interesting to think about the way
different teams are run and how this has contributed to
Christian or a feeling perhaps like he's been backed into
a corner because there's not really any other teams that
are run like this. Sore a graphic earlier today. I
wish I'd saved it so I could tell you about it.
But it's essentially comparing how many victories, first of all,
and championships, and then how many team principles Red Bull
(10:17):
Racing and Ferrari have had in two thousand and five,
and unsurprisingly, there are many more team principles on the
Ferrari side, but many more victories and titles on the
Red Bull Racing side, because it is historically a method
that has worked. But because of the nature of Formula
One teams and the F one business, the idea of
having an owner operator is pretty fanciful because there's not
(10:38):
very many people who can simply own and then have
the expertise to run a team. Total Wolf's the only
one who gets closer and Stirdy a third of the
Mercedes team, but even he styles himself less as an
active team principle and more as a like a supervisor
if you like, of the entire team. You don't see
him on the pitwall making decisions. An example where's Christian
Houno is always very active on the pitwall right in
(10:59):
the middle of everything continues to go through him in
a way that I think is slightly different to Toto Wolf.
I think Christian Norlan was actually asked about this recently,
kind of likened it to the way Aston Martin now
runs with Andy Cowe. But I don't see that many
similarities there because the shadow of Lawrence Stroll just simply
looms so large over that team that I don't think
it ever could be so I do wonder whether a
(11:21):
success was that idea has been and as lauded as
that idea is as well, there's a real in Formula one,
almost a longing for those days where someone would really
went through one person. I'm just not convinced Formula one
today and it's grown so much as well as sport
in the last five years, as have the teams can
be run in that way, and perhaps that's part of
(11:41):
what we're seeing here.
Speaker 2 (11:42):
Well. I think this is going to be part of
Christian Horner's legacy, and I think he's going to be
the last person to run a team like this. I
don't see in the future of Formula one that there's
going to be anyone that comes in that has that
amount of longevity power influence over so many areas of
the business. I think he is the last of the
dinosaurs in that respect. I don't think we're ever going
(12:05):
to see this again. And the fact that he was
able to do this for so long in a Formula
one world that's changed multiple times over those twenty years
is hugely commendable when you look at the success they've
had and the graphic that I haven't seen this, but
I can absolutely imagine what it's going to look like
in terms of team principles versus championships one. It's a
very very uneven graph, But I think he is the
(12:26):
last person that's ever going to run a team like this,
And the fact that he was able to do it
for so long and have these two really distinct periods
of success, the Sebastian Vastal era the Maxistapan Area era,
a lot of winning in between. I just don't think
we're ever going to see this again. And for all
of the achievements and the stats that I'm sure we're
going to go into, that might be the greatest legacy
(12:47):
in that I just don't see in the future, given
in what formula one is now, that one person in
one team can have their fingerprints on so many aspects
of the business.
Speaker 1 (12:55):
Yeah, and I think, I mean, it's easy to compare
with McLaren because mclaran's doing so well at the moment,
but it struck me the other day in conversation that
McLaren fields best set up. And again it's so easy
to say that when they're winning titles, but you have
Zach Brown playing the very high profile political figure who
goes out there and also cops that he's in the
position to cop flak on behalf of the team as
(13:16):
the CEO, but then doesn't have to go and run
the team, having taken that damage in some cases, or
having spent the day being on the offensive making jokes
a Christian Harner's expense or whatever you have. Andrea Stella
the engineer's brain, the man who's come up through the team,
who's worked with the people actually running it. Two very
different characters in the way they present and the way
(13:38):
they operate in the paddock and external to the paddock.
But that feels like a better balance now considering the
pressures and expectations on a single team principle or CEO
character if you like.
Speaker 2 (13:49):
Yeah, agretted and the other part of the McLaren story
here as well. There's a bit of the Mattershit's angle
in this. In the Bahrony sovereign fund that pumps so
much money into McLaren, they largely provide the money and
get out of the way and employ people to do
the job. And I think that was one of the
great strengths of Red Bull during the Mattershit's ownership, was
that they were never wanting for anything but he never
(14:10):
wanted to be involved in the way the team was
being run. And I think in the McLaren thing, it's
not the same obviously, but it's a similar setup in
that the money and the resources provided and then you
employ the experts in their fields to get on with
the business of winning. And that's what we've seen now.
And then you look at the the job's become too
big now for our person, you know, the Brown Stellar
(14:30):
double act. It's a really interesting dynamic between those two
because I think each of them is strong where the
other isn't. And there's you know, Stella's got the engineer's
touch and maybe the more granular approach and Zach Brown
is you more big picture sponsorship, marketing, overall overarching view
of how our team should be run. I mean, Recentcy
advises everything and we can look at the results and say, well,
(14:52):
aren't they doing a good job? But I think they
were doing a good job from the moment they became
a double act. I think now the points table is
just starting to reflect that maybe this is the way
to run a Formula One team. And you know the
old saying about inimitation being the greatest form of flattery.
I think a lot of teams will look, with the
exception possibly Ferrari because I've just going to do Ferrari things.
But you'll see a lot of other teams will look
(15:12):
at the way McLaren's running and try and find their
equivalents in those positions because it's clearly the right recipe
at the moment. It also probably brings into more focus
that the Red Bull way was a way of the past,
and while it had its reasons to be successful because
it had Adrian Newey, and it had Sebastian Battle, and
it had Max Forstapan, there's a time limit on this
(15:33):
sort of thing, and I think it's being phased out
as a way to run a Formula One team in
twenty twenty.
Speaker 1 (15:37):
Five, undeniably one hundred and twenty four race victories, fourteen championships,
that's six constructors, eight drivers titles is his legacy in
It's funny I was thinking this morning. Red Bull statistics
as one of the great Formula One teams are his statistics.
He is the only team residents, the only guy's ever
run it. They are his stats. So his legacy is
enormous as much as the way he's bowed out it's
(15:58):
sort of been a bit of a peatre out, not
only through a declining sense of competitiveness at the team,
but also this sort of ungracious or somewhat undignified exit
or press release exits are never very satisfying it. That's
part of it, but undoubtedly as a significant legacy. We'll
talk a little bit later on about how that might
be applied to formulae later. Obviously, everyone wants to know
where this intersects with Maxwistappan, which has been the news
(16:20):
story of the last month, particularly the last week or two,
rumors that he could affect from the team that he
is talking tom Besides, it's less of a rumor. Mercedes
has said that they are talking to his management. The
rumor is the significance of that. But we talked on
a little bit earlier that this seems to be a
case of either the verstap in camp saying it's it's
(16:40):
essentially us or him, or saying we are already gone,
and Horner essentially carrying the can for that. But I
think what's interesting, Mattter is if we do look at
the way Horner has run the team to get to
this point, particularly in the last was a decade now really,
or if you want to just say the seven years
since Daniel Ricardo left, although these moves are already been
put in place, then this is a team that has
(17:01):
become increasingly centered on Max Verstappan to the point where
no other driver can even score in this team. Seven
points for Yuki Sinda, so fard to see it one
hundred and sixty something. I think for Max it's sort
of ironic that it feels like that set up that,
as you say, did reap great rewards, you know, one
championships with that configuration, appears to be significant in Horner's
(17:22):
downfall massively.
Speaker 2 (17:23):
So when you think of the amount of times that
Max would do something that was shall we say, borderline
or perhaps just you know, completely wrong or the wrong
thing to do. Like Horner was the great enabler, and
he allowed for Stappan to perhaps get away or deflect
some of the scrutiny or the criticism that was going
to go against for Staffan because of various things he
did on track or set off track. But it was
(17:45):
very much the playbook he used with Sebastian Vattle as well.
He was always in Sam's corner and you know you look,
at the end of the day with Sebastian Vettel in
twenty fourteen, the car was no good, so he left.
And Formula One drivers are fickled with these sorts of
things because they will go where the performance is. And
so as relates to your previous question about Max Verstappan,
we don't have a crystal ball for this particular episode,
(18:06):
but if I was going to dust mine off, I
would almost guarantee that this ensures that Max is going
to stay for the rest of this for next season,
for twenty twenty six, because what he now becomes is
the most coveted asset on the driver market whenever he
decides he wants to be in that market. Given you've
got this brand new formula and reset for twenty twenty six,
(18:27):
would it not behoove for Stappen in his camp to
see what it is that Red Bull have got with
new leadership and a new power traded and new formula
and maybe this is the roadmap back to the top again,
because if it's made pretty clear early in the twenty
twenty six season, that's not the way to go. He
has the status in the sport that he could phone
any team principle for whichever team it is hits the
(18:48):
ground running the fastest at the start of next year
and say I'd like to come and drive for you.
Let's make this happen, and you know that it would.
So I would think in the short term it would
probably guarantee that he stays. Now, I could be completely
wrong by the top of this podcast is but I
think this is going to be more likely that he
stays for the short term and then holds all the
power for the longer term once we get twenty twenty
(19:10):
six and how this brand new formula plays out, and
history is a guide with these sorts of things. I mean,
you were in the sport at this point. You think
back to twenty thirteen and twenty fourteen, the large last
rule change of this significance that we had. Red Bull
won the final nine races of twenty thirteen, they won
four championships in a row with Sebastian Vattle, and then
we got to twenty fourteen and they were absolutely hopeless
(19:31):
and Mercedes basically wiped the floor with everybody for years
after years after years, and they weren't particularly good in
twenty twelve and thirteen. So on, really big regulation changes
the balance of power. It doesn't just slightly shift, it
can completely be turned upside down. And I would imagine
that Vastapan has got he could go wherever he wants
to once he reads the tea leads as to who's
good and who's not. And I think short term this
(19:53):
probably keeps him where he is, but longer term perhaps not.
Speaker 1 (19:57):
So let me put this you there, because let's assume,
and this is us making an assumption because there is
so little information about this situation. Conveniently, there are two
weekends off for middle one, so there'll be a while
before questions can be put in firston to many of
the key players. But let's assume that this has been
a result of essentially pressure from the Vestapen camp saying
we don't like Haunt the way Horn's running things. If
(20:17):
he doesn't go, then we're out. And Red Bull's acquiesce
to that decision that puts a lot of power into
vestap In camp's hands pretty explicitly right, that you have
the power to decide who the team principle is or
who it is not, at least in this case. And
there are rumors as well that they're not particularly impressed
with the leader of the technical department, Pierre Wasche since
he's elevated to the top job at the expense of
(20:38):
Adrian Nuey, and who knows what that means for him,
considering Christian Horna was one of his big backers, and
so on and so forth. But then, after all of this,
after the fact that the Vestapen camp has potentially dictated
the identity of the team principal, perhaps other people. Obviously
Helbert Marco's status is somewhat elevated by this as well,
considering he's a verstapin camp. If he then leaves next year,
(21:00):
what was the point of all of this nowithstanding that, okay,
maybe Christian Horner's style of team principalship has run its
course and for the last eighteen months a lot of
people have left under the leadership of Christian Horner. Doesn't
that just debase the entire organization further that you've made
so many decisions based on someone who may well leave it,
about who decide to leave it about six months time.
Speaker 2 (21:18):
Yes, it does. But there's also the red Bull playbook
in that, as we were talking about before, there's always
been this element that when they have the prize driver asset,
which they did with Vattle and they do with Verstappen.
They will do every single thing to keep that particular
person on side because they are difference makers. Like seb
was absolutely brilliant, and that iteration of Formula One cars
(21:38):
have won four championships. Perhaps a little bit more limited
on a wider scale, but at the time, with the
equipment that was available, he was the man for four
straight years. I think what Vastappen has done in the
past eighteen months, and we've talked about this, probably puts
his career historically into a better light. Because it's one
thing to win and be a kingpin when you've got
the best car on the greed. It's another thing entirely
(22:00):
to do it when you don't. And from the middle
of twenty twenty three, and you mean, you look at
what he's done this year, the fact that he's even
third in the Driver's Championship and he's managed to win
some races. I can't think of as a very very
short list of other drivers who could do what he
has done this year, probably a list of exactly zero.
I think he's absolutely fantastic this year. So when there
is a chance to accumulate power and wield that power
(22:23):
as you see fit. Why wouldn't you take it if
you were part of his camp and you know it
means you hold all the cards and the other thing
with Max, of course, he's achieved so much success so
young that he now gets to right the back end
of his story.
Speaker 1 (22:37):
Now.
Speaker 2 (22:37):
Do we expect him to be running around in Formula
one at forty three like Fernando a lotso? Absolutely not.
But it still feels to me that he's at the
age and stage of his career with enough runway left
that he can dictate this final chapter and as to
where that is and being on the right horse at
the right time with this huge regulation reset for twenty
twenty six, do you use all that power to stay
(22:58):
where you are and have a team that's completely bent
to your will? A little bit of sort of Michael
Schumacher era Ferrari perhaps in that, Or do you look
at what's coming along in twenty twenty six and go, oh,
these guys have got it very very right, whether that
be Mercedes or somebody else, And then you have this
second chapter of your career winning somewhere else in a
different set of circumstances. I think we always look at
(23:19):
these drivers and writers in motor GP differently. If they're
able to win several times with different manufacturers in different forms,
I think it elevates a driver in the status of Wow,
this guy really was quite something because it wasn't a
specific team in a specific set of circumstances that enabled
them to win. I just think that right now the
Vestap and camp has all the cards they can determine
(23:39):
where this goes. But I don't think we're going to
get a shorter term move on this. I think it
might be slightly longer term.
Speaker 1 (23:45):
There's one other difference I think between Better leaving the
team and Verstap and threatening or perhaps having decided to
leave the team, and that is when Vette left, it
was still a time that Red Bull seemed to genuinely
believe in its driver program and its candidates. Because, of
course Daniel Ricardo had just been elevated to the team
and proved a stern challenge for Sebastianville and obviously turned
(24:06):
out to be really quite a good driver at Red
Bull Racing, and obviously behind him eventually came well. Daniel
Kiveat is probably less remembered, but max forstaffened inevitably turned up,
and so that flow was still happening. I want to
turn our attention to the future of the team now
because it's now all Laura Meckia has problem as CEO
and team principle to manage whatever's left of the circumstances here.
(24:28):
But one of the problems is that the team feels
much less secure if a if a post for staff
in future is to come to pass, and it will eventually,
whether or not it's in the coming years or he
just retires it into twenty eight, it's going to turn
up eventually. The problem of performance from the second car
at the moment occupied by Yuki Sonoda is significant. The
problem of how much the team can have confidence in
(24:49):
the drivers at racing bulls is a problem now Isac
Hatch is doing quite well, but Yuki Sounoda is doing
quite well to start of the year as well. Liam
Lawson's already been turfed out from Red Bull Racing. Then
we add the question about it's going to be quite
a big set of circumstances are going to put you
well the power unit program. There are lots of rumors
about power unit programs No one knows how well or
badly they're doing, because it's impossible to but there are
(25:09):
a lot of rumors that it's a little bit behind
the curve, and certainly Christian Orna had been talking down expectations.
It'll be up to Laura meche is to manage those
next year in an era of significant change, and with
a team that's depleted of some pretty significant chiefs from
the last two decades. It's a pretty big job to
take on, isn't it That there's a lot on mechey
(25:30):
has played And I was a little bit surprised to
find out this morning when Red Bull completed it's half
of the announcement that he will be in exactly the
same role as CEO and team principal.
Speaker 2 (25:40):
Massive massive shoes to feel. And also from a position
of I wouldn't say you're expected to fail given the
circumstances that you inherit this in. But if this thing
is even neutral, let alone a success, that's almost going
to be a surprise, because you think there's going to
be some sort of perhaps downturn or ramifications from this.
It really is a very very difficult role, and if
(26:00):
you're Laurel meck is, you're hardly going to say no,
let's be perfectly honest when the phone rings. But that's
a seriously, seriously tough task because the other factor you
just mentioned them before is that Rebel Racing effectively becomes
a fully fledged works team in its own right because
they're going to be producing their own engine in house.
They've always been an engine customer. That's a big leap
for a company that's never done this before, let alone,
(26:22):
you know, a business like RedBull Racing is so well
established over these twenty years, but this is a different
task that they're undertaking as a startup, with a new
set of rules, with a lot of up people and uncertainty.
So look, it's it's a massive challenge. And what's interesting
we were talking off air before we started here in
that a lot of people who are relatively new to
Formula one would only know Red Bull as being a
(26:44):
championship contending drivers and constructors championship contending outfit over the
past fifteen years, because that's what they've mostly been. And
then even in the years where things were a bit down,
like say twenty fourteen that we mentioned before, the only
other driver and team to win races in that Mercedes
dominated twenty fourteen new formula was three race wins v.
Daniel Ricardo for Red Bull Racing. For our win a race,
(27:05):
nobody else fired a shot, So we've only ever known
him as being a successful team. You forget that for
the first five years of their existence, they might snag
a podium here or there, but they were in the
hunt for absolutely nothing from two thousand and five up
until two thousand and nine. So maybe we need to
reframe our expectations for what Red Bull Racing might be
in this new formula, which is not something we've had
(27:25):
to countenance for a really long time now.
Speaker 1 (27:28):
Yeah, because it is now completely new red Bull Racing.
As we said, Christian Hornand was the only team prince
all they had a lot of the staff we've talked
in recent in the rescent eighteen months are the only
people who have ever filled those positions of the team.
This is a new Red Bull Racing now. And the
final one I want to put you out is that
this is also a new year for Christian Horner. For
two decades doing the same thing since he was thirty one,
I think it was. If he's fifty one now, it
(27:50):
must be a little bit frightening for him. I guess
shouldn't fel too sympathetic. He's quite wealthy as a result
of all this. But what do you think he's going
to do next? This is a question I've been wondering
all more since since that happened last night. And I'm
not convinced, not one hundred percent convinced we will see
him in a similar role in Formula one. But I'm
also not convinced that we won't see him in Formula one.
Speaker 2 (28:11):
No. I mean, you could be slightly disingenuous here and say, well,
our PA need a team principle about every three months,
so he could possibly, you know, he could wait ten
minutes and that job might come up again, So you
have to wonder with that. I think the you know,
a lot of people have been drawing a line between
Horner and Ferrari, given that he was approached previously, and
it was you know, Horner who pretty much said that
you should go and talk to Fred Vassa, who'd be
(28:32):
a good guy to do it. So I know there's
been some uncertainty with Vassa's role and the fact that
Ferrari has been a little bit disappointing in the Italian
presses rattling xabers as they tend to, but I wouldn't
be surprised. I don't think. Look first thing first, I
don't think he's going to jump at anything. He's not
a guy who needs to be employed tomorrow. Let's be
perfectly honest. But you mentioned it before. He's fifty one
and in Formula one senior management terms, there's a lot
(28:56):
left for him to do. I don't think his energy
and the ability to lead, I don't think that's going
to go to waste. He's going to end up somewhere.
But a slightly cheeky thought, imagine him in Stefano Dominicali's role,
actually running Formula one rather than running one of the
ten teams. Now, that would be interesting, wouldn't it.
Speaker 1 (29:14):
That would be very interesting. I don't know if Toto
Wolf would like it. For one, I think there might
be a couple of people who may not love it.
But you know, he does certainly have the expedition there.
We're rumors now thinking back in the Bernie Eckleston days.
One day he would replace Bernie, wasn't it? Because they
get along and they probably think in a similar way,
and I think that's quite a good pick. I'm not convinced,
(29:34):
my I'm not convinced everyone thinks it's a good poe.
But I can see it happening. I can see it working,
and I can see him enjoying that, and I think
Formula probably get something out of that as well.
Speaker 2 (29:42):
But I also think he would actually do a pretty
good job. Yeah, roll, I mean, you take a lot
of them. You know, it's very hard to separate the
politics from the person in this situation. And yes, there
are some I was going to say some sores, but
more some gaping wounds with some of these other principles
that he would possibly be running over the top of there.
But in terms of the leadership skills and what he
would need to bring to the role and the energy
(30:03):
of moving Formula one into its post twenty thirty future
or whatever that's going to be, he certainly will qualify
for a job like That's just a matter of whether
he would want to do it.
Speaker 1 (30:12):
I guess yes. And it would give Formula one a
chance to use one of its favorite phrases, poacher turned gamekeeper.
Ah Yes, just be wary look out for that one.
It will be very interesting, no doubt, a lot of
change still to come and a lot still to learn
about this move in the next couple of weeks. The
Belgian Grand Prix not until the end of the month,
so expect plenty of rumor and speculation to swirl unless
(30:34):
and until someone decides to fill us in in whatever
manner they choose, whether that be a driver or perhaps
Horner himself if he has kept some receipts on his
way out of Milton Keynes. But that's all the time
we have for pit Talk today. You can subscribe to
Pittalk wherever you get your favorite podcasts, and you can
leave us a rating and a review as well, and
a reminder. This weekend is a Supercars towns will five
hundred with Friday's race at three forty pm and races
(30:56):
on Saturday and Sunday at three pm, after which you
can catch the German Motorcycle Grand Prix with lights out
at ten pm Sunday, and you can keep up to
date with all the later steff one, Supercars and MOTOJP
news at Foxsports dot com dot Au. From Matt Clayton
and me Michael Lomonado, Thanks very much for your company
and we'll catch you next week.
Hello, and welcome to Pit Talk, brought to you by Shannon's.
(00:03):
On today's episode, Christian Horner has been sacked as CEO
and team principal of Red Bull Racing after two decades
in the job, in a seismic day for Formula One,
just when it was meant to be taking a break.
To my name's Michael Lobonado. It's great to have your
company and the company of my co host. He's put
his empty Red Bull can outside the front of his door.
Speaker 2 (00:21):
It's Matt Clayton, straight into the recycling. No use for that, Nimo,
Michael Vice. Everything comes to an end red Bull cans
and a Red Bull Formula one team principles apparently. But look,
I don't know about you, but I think maybe for
the last out of twelve to eighteen months, the fact
that this has happened is maybe not a surprise, but
I think maybe the timing of it is a surprise,
and I'm sure we'll cover that in the next twenty
(00:42):
minutes or so.
Speaker 1 (00:43):
Yeah, it's sort of a it's not so much a
question of why, although obviously the question of why is
still to be resolved, but we can fill in a
lot of those blanks. The question of why now is
a little bit more difficult, but that leads us into
what I think is almost most remarkable about this news
is just how hard to see coming despite the fact
that Horner clearly has had a lot of internal enemies
(01:03):
at the team. The speculation of a Maxisappen's future will
touch on all of this, but it's very rare in
Formula one for there to be any secrets when it
comes to news. The last genuinely big secret I can
think of was Nico Rosberg's retirement. Yes, that's because he
announced it himself when he decided, and that was in person,
in public. He didn't really have to tell anyone beforehand.
(01:24):
This was a genuine shock out of the blue. There
was no warning that this was coming.
Speaker 2 (01:28):
No, because I don't think there's been anything particularly on
track that's been so significant in the short term that
makes you think, well, that is the final tipping point.
So it goes back to the why of this decision.
We know what's happened now, but is it a performance
related tipping point? What's the urgency for this? Because it
strikes me as being a little bit odd. You know,
(01:49):
we've not made it to the mid season break, yet
that seems like it would be a more sensible period
to perhaps make a change like this. But the key
thing for me is we're so deep into twenty twenty
five now, the second half of this season. We know
it's not half of a calendar year. It goes very
very quickly with all the back to backs. We've got
a completely new look Formula one coming up in twenty
twenty six, and one of the biggest players in the
(02:12):
sport over two distinct periods over two decades is now
out the door at a time of enormous uncertainty in
the sport, let alone within that team. And I think
that's the significant part of this. The timing and why
now is the most interesting part, as opposed to why
he's actually gone in the first place.
Speaker 1 (02:30):
Yeah, it seems like, I mean, we can kind we
can describe perhaps two trigger points for this decision being made.
One we can infer quite easily because we've known for
the last well essentially since Dietrich Matters has died in
twenty twenty two, which created the power vacuum that created
all the factional warfare that we've been enjoying or braced
for for the last couple of years. Is that Horner's
(02:52):
counted the backing of the time majority ownership of Red
Bull in his corner, and that's kind of been his
trump card. That's been the thing that's protected him against
all the pressure from inside and also a semi externally
from the staff and camp from else with staff in particular.
We can only assume now that that has evaporated that
what the culbination of situations, the combinations and motivations to
(03:14):
remove him from his post have now overcome that support
have been enough for that support to waiver or fade
away and motivate the change. So we know that, But
it's the culmination of all those other little things that
I think are interesting, and I think if we want
to try and deduce some of the reasons or where
these reasons are coming from, we have to go back
to that timing. As you say, it's sort of like
(03:36):
the timing of right now is has to be quite specific.
Right because it was anything to do with a controversy
he brings to the team by personality, by the investigation
to him last year, you would have done it last year.
If it was about performance, you would surely wait till
the end of the year, or at a minimum the
mid season break, because this season says so much time
to play out. We don't know if fred Boo can
(03:57):
turn this year around or potentially next year when we
know whether or not the gamble's Christian Horner has made
on strategizing for Red Bull's new future will pay off,
or whether the engine will be no good, in which
case you can draw a line under it. The timing
for this to me, Matt suggests that it must be
Verstappen related because it's the only significant Red Bull news
item that has been rocking the team for the last
(04:18):
month now.
Speaker 2 (04:19):
Yeah, And I think there's one of two ways you
can look at this. It's like, could this be a
case of the Verstapen camp saying, well, if he doesn't go,
then we will and we know that there's offers out
there with Mercedes, Or is the reason that Christian Horner
has gone is because they already know that Max Vstappen
has already gone, which is a completely different conversation for
that team going forward for twenty twenty six. It's always
(04:39):
going it's already going to be a big difference with
no Christian Horner at the helm. But could you imagine
a red Bull racing right now with no Horner running
it and no Vastapan driving for it. What's the stat
I think vastapan'scored ninety seven percent of that team poids
this year or some You know, you may as well
just enter one car, as Sir Jepero is intimated they did.
But to my mind, it's got to be one of
(05:00):
those two things, because there's nothing significant that's happened to
perhaps accelerate this story in the recent past. But you
mentioned something earlier about the death of Detric Matterships in
October twenty twenty two, and you know, once there was
a respectable period of moarning for something like this, there's
always going to be a power struggle going on behind
the scenes. I do wonder if this decision was inevitable
(05:24):
from quite a long while ago. But the fact that
in twenty twenty three they won all but one race,
and in twenty twenty four they won the World Championship
kind of backed their way into it after the first
half of the season was so good. But they won
the championship nonetheless, so the end justified the means. You know,
you still come out of those two seasons with two
drivers championships and one constructors title. I wonder, now finally
(05:45):
some of the issues that maybe were prevalent at the
end of twenty twenty two have come home to roost,
because you can look at these points tables now and
they're clearly not winning either the championship this year. Was
this just the inevitable outcome of what happened at the
end of twenty twenty two and we've just moved this,
you know, move the goalposts on this because they kept
winning for a while until they didn't. I wonder if
that's part of this too.
Speaker 1 (06:05):
Yeah, because it's important to recognize, isn't it that this
team was run in a relatively unusual way by Formula
One stands all the teams are quite different now because
they're huge structures with different ownerships and all that kind
of thing. But Dietrich Mattershits ensured this team was funded
very well, that had everything it needed, but never really
intervened in the running of It was in the background
and users required of and around driver signings and things
(06:28):
like that. But really it was the team that Christian
Horner was allowed to run as he saw fit with
a relatively long leash via Helbert Marco, the motorsport advisor,
essentially liaised between Red Bull the business and Red Bull's
Formula One team, but that obviously couldn't continue after Matterschitz's
death because he was no longer there, to put it frankly,
and it also changed the way Red Bull operated. It's
(06:49):
now obviously much less centered around one figure. It operates
more conventionally with a variety of different chief executives. The
ownership or the forty nine percent ownerships passed down to
Gratituate's son, but I don't think he really has any
executive control over the company, or at least not in
the Formula one sense. So just by virtue of that
top down direction, changing the way that Christian Horna was
(07:13):
allowed to run the team as his own team was
always going to change because it isn't his team. At
the end of the day, he's the team brinctal, he's
the CEO, but he doesn't own it, and inevitably there
were going to be people trying to fill those spaces.
And it does seem like Matt that for the last
three years, I suppose two years since that time, Horner
had largely won his own way. He runs a lot
of the team, not just the team now as well,
(07:34):
but a lot of the technical enterprises power trains has
been started in that time. But he runs that exerts
a lot of control at racing bulls now as well.
It's much more an arm of red bull racing, I
suppose than it was in the past. And as a result,
you know, you talk about how these decisions he's made
are coming home to roost, it really does feel like
(07:57):
a lot of them are on his shoulders. Were he
made that have now sort of spiraled out of control
and come back to bite him. You know, realities had
to hit eventually.
Speaker 2 (08:06):
I do like it how you refer to all of
those things in the present tense. And I'm not blaming
you for that, because we're just so used to Christian
hornerbeg sononymous with running all of these things, and we
know we now have to go with the oh, he
ran those things past tense, so we have to get
our tenses right, which is a strange thing to say,
but I guess what you're saying before in terms of
this one man in the situation, one person having so
(08:27):
much influence and so much control. This is a throwback
to the era in which he came up, because you know,
he's been Rebels team only team principal from two thousand
and five onwards. And you look at Formula one two
thousand and five, when he came in as a team principal,
he was barely at he thirties, and a lot of
the old dogs that were team principals at that point
really didn't take him or the team particularly seriously because
(08:48):
you had big, big names and big personalities and really
fearsome people running these teams like Ron Dennis and Jean
Todd and Sir Frank Williams and that real old guard
of Formula one Horneer looked like the kids who was
a work experience at that time really didn't fit in
the team was not really taken seriously at all. It
looked like they were just there to move some cans
(09:08):
and have a good time basically. And it's what's interesting
is that he has now become the big dog that
they were. But you're running a team. Sorry, he ran
a team past, Yes, he ran a team in a
very very sort of two thousand and five to ten way.
In twenty twenty five, where Formula one has become much
much bigger, much more corporate the structures of these leadership groups.
(09:32):
It's not just one person calling the shots in just
about any one of these. They report to boards, they
have a lot of underlings to them. He was still
running the team in an old school way, So it's
funny he was so anti establishment and the team was
anti establishment when he came in, and they became the
establishment in a lot of respects. They became the outlier
because they were run differently to everybody else. It was
(09:53):
the same way in two thousand and five. It's just
a different type of different, isn't it.
Speaker 1 (09:57):
Yeah, And it is interesting to think about the way
different teams are run and how this has contributed to
Christian or a feeling perhaps like he's been backed into
a corner because there's not really any other teams that
are run like this. Sore a graphic earlier today. I
wish I'd saved it so I could tell you about it.
But it's essentially comparing how many victories, first of all,
and championships, and then how many team principles Red Bull
(10:17):
Racing and Ferrari have had in two thousand and five,
and unsurprisingly, there are many more team principles on the
Ferrari side, but many more victories and titles on the
Red Bull Racing side, because it is historically a method
that has worked. But because of the nature of Formula
One teams and the F one business, the idea of
having an owner operator is pretty fanciful because there's not
(10:38):
very many people who can simply own and then have
the expertise to run a team. Total Wolf's the only
one who gets closer and Stirdy a third of the
Mercedes team, but even he styles himself less as an
active team principle and more as a like a supervisor
if you like, of the entire team. You don't see
him on the pitwall making decisions. An example where's Christian
Houno is always very active on the pitwall right in
(10:59):
the middle of everything continues to go through him in
a way that I think is slightly different to Toto Wolf.
I think Christian Norlan was actually asked about this recently,
kind of likened it to the way Aston Martin now
runs with Andy Cowe. But I don't see that many
similarities there because the shadow of Lawrence Stroll just simply
looms so large over that team that I don't think
it ever could be so I do wonder whether a
(11:21):
success was that idea has been and as lauded as
that idea is as well, there's a real in Formula one,
almost a longing for those days where someone would really
went through one person. I'm just not convinced Formula one
today and it's grown so much as well as sport
in the last five years, as have the teams can
be run in that way, and perhaps that's part of
(11:41):
what we're seeing here.
Speaker 2 (11:42):
Well. I think this is going to be part of
Christian Horner's legacy, and I think he's going to be
the last person to run a team like this. I
don't see in the future of Formula one that there's
going to be anyone that comes in that has that
amount of longevity power influence over so many areas of
the business. I think he is the last of the
dinosaurs in that respect. I don't think we're ever going
(12:05):
to see this again. And the fact that he was
able to do this for so long in a Formula
one world that's changed multiple times over those twenty years
is hugely commendable when you look at the success they've
had and the graphic that I haven't seen this, but
I can absolutely imagine what it's going to look like
in terms of team principles versus championships one. It's a
very very uneven graph, But I think he is the
(12:26):
last person that's ever going to run a team like this,
And the fact that he was able to do it
for so long and have these two really distinct periods
of success, the Sebastian Vastal era the Maxistapan Area era,
a lot of winning in between. I just don't think
we're ever going to see this again. And for all
of the achievements and the stats that I'm sure we're
going to go into, that might be the greatest legacy
(12:47):
in that I just don't see in the future, given
in what formula one is now, that one person in
one team can have their fingerprints on so many aspects
of the business.
Speaker 1 (12:55):
Yeah, and I think, I mean, it's easy to compare
with McLaren because mclaran's doing so well at the moment,
but it struck me the other day in conversation that
McLaren fields best set up. And again it's so easy
to say that when they're winning titles, but you have
Zach Brown playing the very high profile political figure who
goes out there and also cops that he's in the
position to cop flak on behalf of the team as
(13:16):
the CEO, but then doesn't have to go and run
the team, having taken that damage in some cases, or
having spent the day being on the offensive making jokes
a Christian Harner's expense or whatever you have. Andrea Stella
the engineer's brain, the man who's come up through the team,
who's worked with the people actually running it. Two very
different characters in the way they present and the way
(13:38):
they operate in the paddock and external to the paddock.
But that feels like a better balance now considering the
pressures and expectations on a single team principle or CEO
character if you like.
Speaker 2 (13:49):
Yeah, agretted and the other part of the McLaren story
here as well. There's a bit of the Mattershit's angle
in this. In the Bahrony sovereign fund that pumps so
much money into McLaren, they largely provide the money and
get out of the way and employ people to do
the job. And I think that was one of the
great strengths of Red Bull during the Mattershit's ownership, was
that they were never wanting for anything but he never
(14:10):
wanted to be involved in the way the team was
being run. And I think in the McLaren thing, it's
not the same obviously, but it's a similar setup in
that the money and the resources provided and then you
employ the experts in their fields to get on with
the business of winning. And that's what we've seen now.
And then you look at the the job's become too
big now for our person, you know, the Brown Stellar
(14:30):
double act. It's a really interesting dynamic between those two
because I think each of them is strong where the
other isn't. And there's you know, Stella's got the engineer's
touch and maybe the more granular approach and Zach Brown
is you more big picture sponsorship, marketing, overall overarching view
of how our team should be run. I mean, Recentcy
advises everything and we can look at the results and say, well,
(14:52):
aren't they doing a good job? But I think they
were doing a good job from the moment they became
a double act. I think now the points table is
just starting to reflect that maybe this is the way
to run a Formula One team. And you know the
old saying about inimitation being the greatest form of flattery.
I think a lot of teams will look, with the
exception possibly Ferrari because I've just going to do Ferrari things.
But you'll see a lot of other teams will look
(15:12):
at the way McLaren's running and try and find their
equivalents in those positions because it's clearly the right recipe
at the moment. It also probably brings into more focus
that the Red Bull way was a way of the past,
and while it had its reasons to be successful because
it had Adrian Newey, and it had Sebastian Battle, and
it had Max Forstapan, there's a time limit on this
(15:33):
sort of thing, and I think it's being phased out
as a way to run a Formula One team in
twenty twenty.
Speaker 1 (15:37):
Five, undeniably one hundred and twenty four race victories, fourteen championships,
that's six constructors, eight drivers titles is his legacy in
It's funny I was thinking this morning. Red Bull statistics
as one of the great Formula One teams are his statistics.
He is the only team residents, the only guy's ever
run it. They are his stats. So his legacy is
enormous as much as the way he's bowed out it's
(15:58):
sort of been a bit of a peatre out, not
only through a declining sense of competitiveness at the team,
but also this sort of ungracious or somewhat undignified exit
or press release exits are never very satisfying it. That's
part of it, but undoubtedly as a significant legacy. We'll
talk a little bit later on about how that might
be applied to formulae later. Obviously, everyone wants to know
where this intersects with Maxwistappan, which has been the news
(16:20):
story of the last month, particularly the last week or two,
rumors that he could affect from the team that he
is talking tom Besides, it's less of a rumor. Mercedes
has said that they are talking to his management. The
rumor is the significance of that. But we talked on
a little bit earlier that this seems to be a
case of either the verstap in camp saying it's it's
(16:40):
essentially us or him, or saying we are already gone,
and Horner essentially carrying the can for that. But I
think what's interesting, Mattter is if we do look at
the way Horner has run the team to get to
this point, particularly in the last was a decade now really,
or if you want to just say the seven years
since Daniel Ricardo left, although these moves are already been
put in place, then this is a team that has
(17:01):
become increasingly centered on Max Verstappan to the point where
no other driver can even score in this team. Seven
points for Yuki Sinda, so fard to see it one
hundred and sixty something. I think for Max it's sort
of ironic that it feels like that set up that,
as you say, did reap great rewards, you know, one
championships with that configuration, appears to be significant in Horner's
(17:22):
downfall massively.
Speaker 2 (17:23):
So when you think of the amount of times that
Max would do something that was shall we say, borderline
or perhaps just you know, completely wrong or the wrong
thing to do. Like Horner was the great enabler, and
he allowed for Stappan to perhaps get away or deflect
some of the scrutiny or the criticism that was going
to go against for Staffan because of various things he
did on track or set off track. But it was
(17:45):
very much the playbook he used with Sebastian Vattle as well.
He was always in Sam's corner and you know you look,
at the end of the day with Sebastian Vettel in
twenty fourteen, the car was no good, so he left.
And Formula One drivers are fickled with these sorts of
things because they will go where the performance is. And
so as relates to your previous question about Max Verstappan,
we don't have a crystal ball for this particular episode,
(18:06):
but if I was going to dust mine off, I
would almost guarantee that this ensures that Max is going
to stay for the rest of this for next season,
for twenty twenty six, because what he now becomes is
the most coveted asset on the driver market whenever he
decides he wants to be in that market. Given you've
got this brand new formula and reset for twenty twenty six,
(18:27):
would it not behoove for Stappen in his camp to
see what it is that Red Bull have got with
new leadership and a new power traded and new formula
and maybe this is the roadmap back to the top again,
because if it's made pretty clear early in the twenty
twenty six season, that's not the way to go. He
has the status in the sport that he could phone
any team principle for whichever team it is hits the
(18:48):
ground running the fastest at the start of next year
and say I'd like to come and drive for you.
Let's make this happen, and you know that it would.
So I would think in the short term it would
probably guarantee that he stays. Now, I could be completely
wrong by the top of this podcast is but I
think this is going to be more likely that he
stays for the short term and then holds all the
power for the longer term once we get twenty twenty
(19:10):
six and how this brand new formula plays out, and
history is a guide with these sorts of things. I mean,
you were in the sport at this point. You think
back to twenty thirteen and twenty fourteen, the large last
rule change of this significance that we had. Red Bull
won the final nine races of twenty thirteen, they won
four championships in a row with Sebastian Vattle, and then
we got to twenty fourteen and they were absolutely hopeless
(19:31):
and Mercedes basically wiped the floor with everybody for years
after years after years, and they weren't particularly good in
twenty twelve and thirteen. So on, really big regulation changes
the balance of power. It doesn't just slightly shift, it
can completely be turned upside down. And I would imagine
that Vastapan has got he could go wherever he wants
to once he reads the tea leads as to who's
good and who's not. And I think short term this
(19:53):
probably keeps him where he is, but longer term perhaps not.
Speaker 1 (19:57):
So let me put this you there, because let's assume,
and this is us making an assumption because there is
so little information about this situation. Conveniently, there are two
weekends off for middle one, so there'll be a while
before questions can be put in firston to many of
the key players. But let's assume that this has been
a result of essentially pressure from the Vestapen camp saying
we don't like Haunt the way Horn's running things. If
(20:17):
he doesn't go, then we're out. And Red Bull's acquiesce
to that decision that puts a lot of power into
vestap In camp's hands pretty explicitly right, that you have
the power to decide who the team principle is or
who it is not, at least in this case. And
there are rumors as well that they're not particularly impressed
with the leader of the technical department, Pierre Wasche since
he's elevated to the top job at the expense of
(20:38):
Adrian Nuey, and who knows what that means for him,
considering Christian Horna was one of his big backers, and
so on and so forth. But then, after all of this,
after the fact that the Vestapen camp has potentially dictated
the identity of the team principal, perhaps other people. Obviously
Helbert Marco's status is somewhat elevated by this as well,
considering he's a verstapin camp. If he then leaves next year,
(21:00):
what was the point of all of this nowithstanding that, okay,
maybe Christian Horner's style of team principalship has run its
course and for the last eighteen months a lot of
people have left under the leadership of Christian Horner. Doesn't
that just debase the entire organization further that you've made
so many decisions based on someone who may well leave it,
about who decide to leave it about six months time.
Speaker 2 (21:18):
Yes, it does. But there's also the red Bull playbook
in that, as we were talking about before, there's always
been this element that when they have the prize driver asset,
which they did with Vattle and they do with Verstappen.
They will do every single thing to keep that particular
person on side because they are difference makers. Like seb
was absolutely brilliant, and that iteration of Formula One cars
(21:38):
have won four championships. Perhaps a little bit more limited
on a wider scale, but at the time, with the
equipment that was available, he was the man for four
straight years. I think what Vastappen has done in the
past eighteen months, and we've talked about this, probably puts
his career historically into a better light. Because it's one
thing to win and be a kingpin when you've got
the best car on the greed. It's another thing entirely
(22:00):
to do it when you don't. And from the middle
of twenty twenty three, and you mean, you look at
what he's done this year, the fact that he's even
third in the Driver's Championship and he's managed to win
some races. I can't think of as a very very
short list of other drivers who could do what he
has done this year, probably a list of exactly zero.
I think he's absolutely fantastic this year. So when there
is a chance to accumulate power and wield that power
(22:23):
as you see fit. Why wouldn't you take it if
you were part of his camp and you know it
means you hold all the cards and the other thing
with Max, of course, he's achieved so much success so
young that he now gets to right the back end
of his story.
Speaker 1 (22:37):
Now.
Speaker 2 (22:37):
Do we expect him to be running around in Formula
one at forty three like Fernando a lotso? Absolutely not.
But it still feels to me that he's at the
age and stage of his career with enough runway left
that he can dictate this final chapter and as to
where that is and being on the right horse at
the right time with this huge regulation reset for twenty
twenty six, do you use all that power to stay
(22:58):
where you are and have a team that's completely bent
to your will? A little bit of sort of Michael
Schumacher era Ferrari perhaps in that, Or do you look
at what's coming along in twenty twenty six and go, oh,
these guys have got it very very right, whether that
be Mercedes or somebody else, And then you have this
second chapter of your career winning somewhere else in a
different set of circumstances. I think we always look at
(23:19):
these drivers and writers in motor GP differently. If they're
able to win several times with different manufacturers in different forms,
I think it elevates a driver in the status of Wow,
this guy really was quite something because it wasn't a
specific team in a specific set of circumstances that enabled
them to win. I just think that right now the
Vestap and camp has all the cards they can determine
(23:39):
where this goes. But I don't think we're going to
get a shorter term move on this. I think it
might be slightly longer term.
Speaker 1 (23:45):
There's one other difference I think between Better leaving the
team and Verstap and threatening or perhaps having decided to
leave the team, and that is when Vette left, it
was still a time that Red Bull seemed to genuinely
believe in its driver program and its candidates. Because, of
course Daniel Ricardo had just been elevated to the team
and proved a stern challenge for Sebastianville and obviously turned
(24:06):
out to be really quite a good driver at Red
Bull Racing, and obviously behind him eventually came well. Daniel
Kiveat is probably less remembered, but max forstaffened inevitably turned up,
and so that flow was still happening. I want to
turn our attention to the future of the team now
because it's now all Laura Meckia has problem as CEO
and team principle to manage whatever's left of the circumstances here.
(24:28):
But one of the problems is that the team feels
much less secure if a if a post for staff
in future is to come to pass, and it will eventually,
whether or not it's in the coming years or he
just retires it into twenty eight, it's going to turn
up eventually. The problem of performance from the second car
at the moment occupied by Yuki Sonoda is significant. The
problem of how much the team can have confidence in
(24:49):
the drivers at racing bulls is a problem now Isac
Hatch is doing quite well, but Yuki Sounoda is doing
quite well to start of the year as well. Liam
Lawson's already been turfed out from Red Bull Racing. Then
we add the question about it's going to be quite
a big set of circumstances are going to put you
well the power unit program. There are lots of rumors
about power unit programs No one knows how well or
badly they're doing, because it's impossible to but there are
(25:09):
a lot of rumors that it's a little bit behind
the curve, and certainly Christian Orna had been talking down expectations.
It'll be up to Laura meche is to manage those
next year in an era of significant change, and with
a team that's depleted of some pretty significant chiefs from
the last two decades. It's a pretty big job to
take on, isn't it That there's a lot on mechey
(25:30):
has played And I was a little bit surprised to
find out this morning when Red Bull completed it's half
of the announcement that he will be in exactly the
same role as CEO and team principal.
Speaker 2 (25:40):
Massive massive shoes to feel. And also from a position
of I wouldn't say you're expected to fail given the
circumstances that you inherit this in. But if this thing
is even neutral, let alone a success, that's almost going
to be a surprise, because you think there's going to
be some sort of perhaps downturn or ramifications from this.
It really is a very very difficult role, and if
(26:00):
you're Laurel meck is, you're hardly going to say no,
let's be perfectly honest when the phone rings. But that's
a seriously, seriously tough task because the other factor you
just mentioned them before is that Rebel Racing effectively becomes
a fully fledged works team in its own right because
they're going to be producing their own engine in house.
They've always been an engine customer. That's a big leap
for a company that's never done this before, let alone,
(26:22):
you know, a business like RedBull Racing is so well
established over these twenty years, but this is a different
task that they're undertaking as a startup, with a new
set of rules, with a lot of up people and uncertainty.
So look, it's it's a massive challenge. And what's interesting
we were talking off air before we started here in
that a lot of people who are relatively new to
Formula one would only know Red Bull as being a
(26:44):
championship contending drivers and constructors championship contending outfit over the
past fifteen years, because that's what they've mostly been. And
then even in the years where things were a bit down,
like say twenty fourteen that we mentioned before, the only
other driver and team to win races in that Mercedes
dominated twenty fourteen new formula was three race wins v.
Daniel Ricardo for Red Bull Racing. For our win a race,
(27:05):
nobody else fired a shot, So we've only ever known
him as being a successful team. You forget that for
the first five years of their existence, they might snag
a podium here or there, but they were in the
hunt for absolutely nothing from two thousand and five up
until two thousand and nine. So maybe we need to
reframe our expectations for what Red Bull Racing might be
in this new formula, which is not something we've had
(27:25):
to countenance for a really long time now.
Speaker 1 (27:28):
Yeah, because it is now completely new red Bull Racing.
As we said, Christian Hornand was the only team prince
all they had a lot of the staff we've talked
in recent in the rescent eighteen months are the only
people who have ever filled those positions of the team.
This is a new Red Bull Racing now. And the
final one I want to put you out is that
this is also a new year for Christian Horner. For
two decades doing the same thing since he was thirty one,
I think it was. If he's fifty one now, it
(27:50):
must be a little bit frightening for him. I guess
shouldn't fel too sympathetic. He's quite wealthy as a result
of all this. But what do you think he's going
to do next? This is a question I've been wondering
all more since since that happened last night. And I'm
not convinced, not one hundred percent convinced we will see
him in a similar role in Formula one. But I'm
also not convinced that we won't see him in Formula one.
Speaker 2 (28:11):
No. I mean, you could be slightly disingenuous here and say, well,
our PA need a team principle about every three months,
so he could possibly, you know, he could wait ten
minutes and that job might come up again, So you
have to wonder with that. I think the you know,
a lot of people have been drawing a line between
Horner and Ferrari, given that he was approached previously, and
it was you know, Horner who pretty much said that
you should go and talk to Fred Vassa, who'd be
(28:32):
a good guy to do it. So I know there's
been some uncertainty with Vassa's role and the fact that
Ferrari has been a little bit disappointing in the Italian
presses rattling xabers as they tend to, but I wouldn't
be surprised. I don't think. Look first thing first, I
don't think he's going to jump at anything. He's not
a guy who needs to be employed tomorrow. Let's be
perfectly honest. But you mentioned it before. He's fifty one
and in Formula one senior management terms, there's a lot
(28:56):
left for him to do. I don't think his energy
and the ability to lead, I don't think that's going
to go to waste. He's going to end up somewhere.
But a slightly cheeky thought, imagine him in Stefano Dominicali's role,
actually running Formula one rather than running one of the
ten teams. Now, that would be interesting, wouldn't it.
Speaker 1 (29:14):
That would be very interesting. I don't know if Toto
Wolf would like it. For one, I think there might
be a couple of people who may not love it.
But you know, he does certainly have the expedition there.
We're rumors now thinking back in the Bernie Eckleston days.
One day he would replace Bernie, wasn't it? Because they
get along and they probably think in a similar way,
and I think that's quite a good pick. I'm not convinced,
(29:34):
my I'm not convinced everyone thinks it's a good poe.
But I can see it happening. I can see it working,
and I can see him enjoying that, and I think
Formula probably get something out of that as well.
Speaker 2 (29:42):
But I also think he would actually do a pretty
good job. Yeah, roll, I mean, you take a lot
of them. You know, it's very hard to separate the
politics from the person in this situation. And yes, there
are some I was going to say some sores, but
more some gaping wounds with some of these other principles
that he would possibly be running over the top of there.
But in terms of the leadership skills and what he
would need to bring to the role and the energy
(30:03):
of moving Formula one into its post twenty thirty future
or whatever that's going to be, he certainly will qualify
for a job like That's just a matter of whether
he would want to do it.
Speaker 1 (30:12):
I guess yes. And it would give Formula one a
chance to use one of its favorite phrases, poacher turned gamekeeper.
Ah Yes, just be wary look out for that one.
It will be very interesting, no doubt, a lot of
change still to come and a lot still to learn
about this move in the next couple of weeks. The
Belgian Grand Prix not until the end of the month,
so expect plenty of rumor and speculation to swirl unless
(30:34):
and until someone decides to fill us in in whatever
manner they choose, whether that be a driver or perhaps
Horner himself if he has kept some receipts on his
way out of Milton Keynes. But that's all the time
we have for pit Talk today. You can subscribe to
Pittalk wherever you get your favorite podcasts, and you can
leave us a rating and a review as well, and
a reminder. This weekend is a Supercars towns will five
hundred with Friday's race at three forty pm and races
(30:56):
on Saturday and Sunday at three pm, after which you
can catch the German Motorcycle Grand Prix with lights out
at ten pm Sunday, and you can keep up to
date with all the later steff one, Supercars and MOTOJP
news at Foxsports dot com dot Au. From Matt Clayton
and me Michael Lomonado, Thanks very much for your company
and we'll catch you next week.
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