December 6, 2024 • 45 mins
Katherine is a social planning practitioner with over 14 years’ experience working for a range of government and non-government organisations in Australia and the Pacific. Katherine has considerable experience in developing and implementing community plans, programs and policy to improve social inclusion and participation. Katherine was awarded the 2018 Rodney Warmington Churchill Fellowship to increase inclusion and accessibility in public toilets by researching taboos, design, policy and legal barriers. The Churchill Fellowship consolidated previous work with planners, institutions and community members identifying public toilets as essential to support the participation of a wide section of our communities. Photos of many toilets Katherine has visited are documented via Instagram @Public_Toilets_Anonymous. Katherine appears on Youtube https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yh7UQziutv8 talking about her work.
Discussion mentions the film ‘Perfect Days’ which is set amongst Tokyo’s public ‘art’ toilets (https://www.archdaily.com/1018293/perfect-days-an-ode-to-tokyos-public-toilets). Mention is also made about Singapores ‘Happy Toilet Program’ (https://www.toilet.org.sg/docs/HTPBrochure.pdf)
For podcast extra / culture corner, Katherine recommendations ‘Birnam Wood’ by Eleanor Catton https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/60784757-birnam-wood. She also recommends the ‘Public Toilet’ app. Jess recommends outsourcing at home in times of stress relying upon the ‘diner lady’. Pete recommends the ‘Transit maps’ app, and secondly, YouTube Premium.
Audio production by Jack Bavage. Podcast released on 7 December 2024.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
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This is a generaltranscript of the episode.
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There have been slight changes toallow for grammar and continuity.
This podcast is supportedby VPLA, Victorian Planning
Environmental Law Association.
Welcome to The Planning Exchange,where we interview built environment
professionals who are doinginteresting work beyond the ordinary.
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I'm Jess Noonan, and I'm joinedby my colleague, Peter Jewell.
Access to public toilets forms partof the global framework of human
rights to water and sanitation.
Public toilets provide individual healthbenefits and support people to participate
in public spaces and community activities.
The provision of accessible and inclusivepublic toilets also contributes to
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citywide economic development as theycan attract visitors and allow people
to stay in public spaces for longer.
However, access to public toiletscontinues to be limited by the lack
of provision, unsuitable design, poormaintenance and management practices
that restrict access, meaning theserights and benefits are not realized
for all, with a greater impact onpopulations with specific toileting needs.
(01:06):
Today's guest on the podcast is KatherineWeber, an expert on public toilets.
And what I've just read out is part ofthe abstract for her master's thesis
that was published only a few weeks ago.
Welcome to the show, Katherine can westart off with your best toilet joke?
Oh gosh.
I hadn't prepared a toilet joke.
(01:26):
I figured you'd haveso many up your sleeve.
They're often in responseto somebody's comments.
So I'm flushed withexcitement to be here today.
I like it.
Good start.
Now, Katherine, can you start off withtelling us a little bit about how you
came to write a thesis on public toilets?
What's your background?
(01:48):
Thank you, Jess.
I'm joining today, from the Bundjalancountry in northern New South Wales.
And I think I've got an interestingtoilet journey to get me where I am.
So I have a varied educationand employment history.
And I'm currently a teacher.
a social planner, a publictoilet advocate and researcher.
I've worked in local government,mostly in Queensland, and I've also
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done some work internationally inPapua New Guinea and Fiji, working on
the UN Women's Safe Cities program.
And I've also worked for anNGO in Australia on sexual
and reproductive health.
All of these jobs have had areally strong focus on social
inclusion and planning for people.
And it was after maybe 10, 12 yearsthat I realized I'd informally been
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collecting people's toilet stories.
So often there was a lack ofsuitable toilets, and that was a
barrier for their participation.
And so that's how I got curious, aboutpublic toilets, and recently have become
rather passionate, talking about toilets.
Katherine, in 2018, you were awardedthe Rodney Warmington Churchill
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Fellowship to look into inclusion,accessibility in public toilets.
Can you tell us a littlebit about Rodney Warmington?
I hope I've got that right.
And secondly, about theChurchill Fellowship program.
Most definitely.
So the Winston Churchill Trust supportsAustralians to travel overseas to
learn about a topic and then bringthat new knowledge back to Australia.
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It's a really fantastic project, becauseyou don't need any specific qualifications
but just a real passion for a topic, andidentify a gap that needs to be addressed.
So Rodney Warmington was an Australianarchitect and his passion was
about barrier free architecture.
In 1966, he became aparaplegic after an accident.
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In 1973, he was a Churchill fellowand his fellowship, was exploring
barrier free architecture.
A Churchill Fellowship has been setup in his name, and that supports
any topic that improves mobility,accessibility, or liability, in the
Australian environment or community.
And I've been lucky enough to be oneof four people who've received the
(04:02):
Rodney Warmington Churchill Fellowship.
Other topics have also lookedat building accessibility,
physical activity, and transport.
We'll put in our episode notes.
Katherine will put in your littleYouTube clip where you present
to the Churchill Fellowship.
You went on to do aninternational study tour.
(04:25):
Can you tell us a little bit about this?
So as part of the Churchill Fellowship, Ispent eight weeks traveling UK and Europe.
It was a journey.
A great opportunity to see avariety of public toilets in situ.
But also I got to meetwith toilet activists.
I got to meet with toilet manufacturers,policy makers, and I went on a London
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loo tour, which was lots of fun.
So I got to speak to people about thedifferent ways that public toilets
are designed, planned, advocated for.
I ended up taking lots of photographs,and published a report that is available
on the Churchill Fellowship website.
And you've previously said thatpublic toilets are our most important
(05:10):
infrastructure and public spacesand probably the most underrated.
Can you talk to this a little bit?
I know like my personalexperience with public toilets.
In public spaces is pretty varied.
Like I've got two young children and Ifeel like there's never a public toilet.
We want one first of all.
And then like you think about particularlysome of the key tourist destinations
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that probably a lot of us Australianshave been to across the world.
I feel like the experience ofpublic toilets in most of those
spaces is probably fairly varied.
Like you think about, parts ofEurope in particular where, You need
to pay to go to a public toilet.
And if you don't have the money oryou don't have the right change,
you can't actually get in easily.
And of course, you know, when you'vegot small children or, you don't
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have, the same abilities as whatother people have, that's a very
difficult proposition to be in.
So, yes, it's definitely anunderrated, public resource.
So what are your thoughts around that?
So if we first define publictoilets, they're the toilets that
you use when you're out of the home.
So we've then got twotypes of public toilets.
There's the on street ones, which areavailable in our parks and on our streets.
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And there's not necessarilya barrier to accessing using
these, if they're open of course.
We've also then got offstreet public toilets.
Which are the ones that might be inour shopping centers, restaurants,
places of work, et cetera.
And so often you need to be aclient to use these ones as well.
So there can be additionalbarriers to access them.
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Now, I think they're really important.
And as you've said, we'veall got bodily functions.
And we all have different levelsof control and cultural ways of
undertaking these bodily functions.
And so if there's not that infrastructure,that's when you really, you notice
when they're not there, or if they'rethere but they can't meet your needs.
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Public toilets support thesebodily functions so I hope
people don't get squeamish, butwe've got urination, defecation,
menstruation, taking medications,breastfeeding, mental health breaks.
People will hide away in toilets as well.
So they support a varietyof different uses.
It's really difficult for people tobe able to stay, to use and enjoy
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these public spaces and often they'reunderrated because they're not
incorporated into the design, the planningand the management of these spaces.
Katherine, you've said, in some of yourresearchwork that toilets are not seen
as a priority or even as a liability.
How did this situation come aboutand what do you consider it to be?
(07:45):
So, and, and just before you answerthat, um, I was speaking to a colleague
who managed public toilets and fora couple of different councils.
And he said, that they were oneof the biggest problems for the
council in terms of, securityof their staff and maintenance.
Any thoughts about that?
(08:06):
Yeah, so I've touched on thebenefits of having toilets, but
there is also the flip side.
And so while they are an importantinvestment, they can be seen
as unsafe and also costly.
You're interacting with thebehaviors of other people.
So there could be vandalism, violence,drug use, sexual assault are all
reported activities in public toilets.
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Then you've also got the fearof germs, the germs of others.
And they can be costly tobuild and costly to maintain.
So I think it is really difficult tobalance these two different perceptions
of public toilets, because they doprovide a real community benefit
when they are provided and they'reaccessible and people can use them,
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but there are risks associated withthem that do need to be managed.
Often local governments will closepublic toilets of a nighttime, which
can reduce some of those risks, but thenalso remove some of the access as well.
So they are, I guess, a really complextype of infrastructure that you may not
get with other forms such as, Other formsof infrastructure such as roads and parks,
(09:16):
Generally speaking, I feel like a lotof councils are moving towards those.
I'm sure they've got a technical namebut you know those automated types
of toilets that Personally scared thecrap out of me because I don't want
to get stuck in them, but you know,they've got like the, the button that
you press and the door closes, and itfeels like you're going into a bunker.
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I don't know if they've got a technicalname, but, I feel like a lot of them
are moving towards that version now,because obviously they want to be able
to shut them off at particular hours,but in doing so that's obviously a much
more expensive type of infrastructure.
I imagine, versus the old, you know,toilet, just four walls around it
and a single basin outside of it.
(09:57):
You know, the needs havebecome far more complex.
Yeah, Jess, they are calledautomated public toilets.
They are definitely viewed, favorablyby councils and public toilet managers,
because they reduce those risks.
They're automated cleaning, theyautomatically open and close, if you're
in there for too long, they will popopen, so that prevents people from
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taking drugs, for sleeping in there.
But you do have that user experience thatthey are not an enjoyable space to use.
They can be really cold, they canbe really harsh, they're often
wet from the recent cleaning.
So,
there is that flip side againof the automated public toilets
that they are meeting a need.
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But they also can be moreexpensive to build and install.
Complex, complex.
Katherine, just going back, travelingback in time, public toilets only
came into being in the 19th century.
I mean, I'm sure they were convenientsomehow before that, but they really came
into their force in the 19th century.
(11:04):
What technological and socialchanges made them possible?
So there's been some fantastichistorians that have looked at public
toilets, and they really are linkedin to the industrialization of cities,
because that's when you had peopleliving together, moving around, and
needing the toilets that weren't onthe farm, weren't located in the home.
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So it was the industrialization ofcities, people moving in together,
in addition, the sewer system.
And so you needed a way to manage.
All those people's waste.
As part of my Churchill fellowship,I did do the London loo tour, which,
has the history of toilets andsanitation and also visited the cross
nest pumping station, which was,one of the first ways of, I guess,
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managing, industrialized cities waste.
Interestingly enough, when citieswere first building public toilets,
they were building them for men.
There has been some great researchlooking at the social acceptability
of women's toilets, and oftenthey were not built for men.
At the same time, and didn't have thesame social acceptability as the men's
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public toilets for a variety of reason.
So, you know, women weren't deemedneeding them out in public spaces
because they weren't moving aroundas much as men was the common theme.
They didn't want to see womenusing toilets, that needed to be
something that was more private.
And so, yeah, there's this greattension, although while we did have
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You know, cities forming and publictoilets being built, there were still
the gendered impacts of toilets wayback, at the start of our cities.
And was there a civic time of prideor golden age of public toilets?
I think there's, advertising thatyou see in magazines, promoting
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toilets and powder rooms for women toencourage them shopping, you know, when
department stores were being created.
And I think partly, you mighthave some of it happening now.
You've got competitions for,the design of public toilets.
And you've also got toilet tourism.
You've got some beautiful publictoilets being built, with public
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art incorporated into them.
Up in Maryborough, there's theCistern Chapel, and they have
painted the entire public toiletinside and out, to decorate it.
So I think you've got, you know,there is some level of civic pride now
for some types of, for some toilets.
So I think, yeah, that there is somenow, and I think there's also, there
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has been some in the past as well.
Now Katherine, site inspections for townplanning assessments can be difficult
at time, can be very difficult at timesbecause you don't want to intrude and
you don't want to be noticed essentially.
But study tours of public toursmust be a factor of 10 times harder.
(14:04):
Any thoughts, any about your experiences?
Peter, I enjoy visiting a public toilet,you never know what you're gonna find,
I think the difficulty relates to,it's around people, so you just need
to be really careful when you're takingphotos, you don't want other people
in them, no one, no one wants that,but I do have a a Instagram account
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and I've taken hundreds of photos ofpublic toilets, and happy to share them.
So I think, they can be fun, butalso you just have to go in knowing
that, it is a private space.
People are doing private activities.
Within a larger public space.
So it just requires alittle bit of sensitivity.
Now Katherine, I think following onfrom your study tour and your master's
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thesis, you've got a number of differentrecommendations coming from that.
Can you describe some of these?
Yeah, definitely.
So, as part of the Churchillreport, was really trying to
reframe how we view public toilets.
So, I've talked about seeing publictoilets as a community investment,
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not just those risky, scary places.
And I think they dosupport so many benefits.
So, it's making sure that we, Reallyconsider public toilets when we
are building our public spaces.
One of the recommendations I did proposewas for federally funded projects
that have public accessibility toinclude a toilets needs assessment.
(15:37):
So in Wales that requires localgovernments to, undertake a
public toilet needs assessment.
So it's looking at the people andhow they move around their local
government or across transport networks.
To see what toilets they can access and Ithink that's something that we could apply
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within the Australian context becauseoften if they are being built or designed
their site by site, so we're not lookingat the network of how people move around.
So I think that's really importantto network approach to public toilets
would be one of the key recommendations.
And so therefore, if we aredoing, you know, mass transit.
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Transport projects.
We incorporate public toilets needsassessment into those as well.
Local governments could createlocal public toilet strategies.
So it's really, Looking at publictoilets as an infrastructure that
requires a network, but also respondingto those local community needs.
So making sure planning process, becausedifferent users have different toileting
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needs, people with disabilities, willhave different access requirements.
And so they need to be addressed, whichcan be done through planning as well.
And Katherine, the physicaldesign of public toilets as.
First off is placement.
Can you talk to this point?
And I'm a bit of overlap from whatyou've already said, but the placement.
(17:13):
So I think we can all thinkof a time where we've been out
and you can't find the toilet.
Um, you know, it might exist, butthere might not be any signs to it, or
you, you find it, it's down a hallway,up three stairs, around a corner,
past the garbage bins, you get thereand then there needs to be a key.
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So you've got to walk all the wayback and hope that you're not in
such an urgent rush so it's reallyimportant that toilets are easy to
find, but in a well located space.
So that's what I mean whenI'm talking about placement.
Or if you're a female, you walk downthe long hallway around the corner
and up three stairs and down anotherhallway, and then find that the line
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is about 20 females deep, and thenyou're going to be waiting probably
25 minutes before you can get in.
Anyway, it's a side note.
Um, yeah, there is, um, no,just a statement, sorry,
a whinge.
Oh, well the building codes just did aconsultation on increasing the number of
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toilets required in cinemas and theatres.
Theaters.
Well, that was gonna be my exact example.
I was at the theater a couple weeks agoand I, yeah, it was very unpleasant.
Anyway, we don't need to get into thespecifics of that . So obviously there
are, there are other things to considerin designing public toilets such as
privacy, ventilation, and lighting.
(18:43):
How much of this did youexplore through your research?
So there's differenttypes of privacy that.
need to be addressed when they'relooking at public toilets.
So the first one is visual privacy.
So people want to know that otherpeople can't see what they're
doing when they're in a toilet.
Now this differs when itcomes to urinals and cubicles.
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So cubicles where people aresitting down, they might be
removing parts of their clothing.
They want to make sure peoplecan't see above or below
the doors or between cracks.
In urinals, there is not as much privacy.
There may not be dividersbetween different urinals.
They may not be in a cubicle.
So you've got that differentlevel of visual privacy.
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You've also got auditory privacy.
So people don't necessarilywant to hear what's happening
in the cubicle next to them.
Then you've got, ventilationcan relate to olfactory privacy.
So people don't want to smell what'shappening next door or what's been,
what's happened in the toilet just,you know, before they've arrived.
So, You know, these are factors that doneed to be considered in the design and
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planning, and then on the flip side ofprivacy is safety and lighting can be
one way of, of addressing safety as well.
So, making sure that you can see thewhole toilet, that there aren't dark
places that people might be hiding in.
So, All of these design factors makepeople feel safe by having a sense
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of privacy, but then also, knowingwhat's happening in there and what's
not happening in those spaces.
And the good thing, Katherine, isthat you would have seen many examples
where all those factors are neatlyaddressed so you get a good outcome.
(20:37):
Often you do see one ortwo of a good example.
I think it also depends on when apublic toilet is built, to what are the
factors that are, Influence the design.
With most built infrastructure,they last for a really long time.
So they're not often updated.
So I think the more modern public toiletsare definitely addressing the visual
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privacy, but then also that safety.
So you've got individual privacywhen you're using a cubicle, but
you've also got better sightlinesthrough the whole building.
So people don't feel like they'reentrapped when they go into a
public space, public toilet.
Yeah.
It's interesting that my contactattendant Katherine said, A lot of the
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old sort of concrete block, Bessa blocktoilets, the council's just bulldozing
them and starting again, because ofall the factors that you mentioned.
But moving on to materials andsurfaces, they have a significant
impact on cleaning and maintenanceand therefore the ongoing performance.
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As attractive as theycan be public spaces.
Can you talk to some of those factors.
So, I think it really is important toconsider the location of the public
toilets, and that associated level of use.
And the level of management.
So the automated public toilets canbe really useful when there's a really
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high level of use, and you're notgoing to be able to maintain them.
One location is Byron Bay by the beach.
So you've got a lot of tourists that arecoming, a lot of salt, a lot of sand.
So you've got.
An automated public toilet there that,you know, is just locations where they
could work really well at a nighttimeentertainment precincts where there
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could be a lot of nighttime drinking.
You know, so you're not necessarilygoing to have that maintenance
happening over an evening.
The cleaning and the maintenance arevital to ensure functioning public
toilets that people actually want to use.
You know, we've all been to a publictoilet where you've walked in and
you've kind of walked back out again.
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If you haven't really needed to go becauseit hasn't felt clean and well maintained,
and that is also related to thematerials and the surfaces that they use.
So, stainless steel, you know, isreally durable, but it's also can
be a not great user experience.
For example, Canberra in winter, you'renot really going to want to sit down
on a rather cold stainless steel.
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So there does need to be that tensionbetween materials and surfaces versus
the use, like the level of use andthen the cleaning and maintenance.
Something you probably didn't know aboutme, Pete, and obviously Katherine, I had a
fear of public toilets when I was a littlegirl, mostly because of the old stainless
steel toilets, which you just mentioned.
(23:31):
And as soon as you said the wordstainless steel, I felt like I had a
shut up because my, I still rememberwe did a lot of camping when I was
little and my mom used to sort oflike force me into the public toilets,
for showers and, you know, Whatever.
And, I just remember so clearlyjust being petrified of those
stainless steel toilets.
I was, I don't know what it was.
I think it was probably the combinationof the materials, but also the fact
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that there were, there was generally notoilet seats on them back in those days.
And, you know, just the wholeexperience was horrendous.
And I think I just, as a small childthought that something was going to
jump up and bite me from those toilets.
It was awful.
Jess, actually that explainsa lot about your personality.
No, I'm being facetiousKatherine, that's terrible.
(24:15):
Jess, I'm glad you shared thatwith us because that, Katherine,
that's the sort of things thattoilet researchers should look into.
Yep.
And to this day, there is no way you wouldget me near a stainless steel toilet.
I would just walk straight out again.
Katherine, that's probably agood time for me to tell my joke.
But, this is a longstanding family joke.
Katherine, my father was an architect andone of his, early projects was designing
(24:40):
a public toilet in Geelong, one of thoseones where you go down the steps in the
center of Geelong, and once that wasdone, he was known by all his mates as
being a very shit arse architect, but,anyway, sorry, that's my joke, Jess.
Ha ha
He did do other things, Katherine.
Anyway, the local climateand culture affects public
(25:04):
So I've talked about Canberra in winter,and I think what I learned through
the Churchill was that it does matter.
So in Portland, Oregon, whichis, the North West coast of the
USA, the pipes freeze in winter.
So they're designing publictoilets that will experience snow.
(25:26):
When I was traveling in Scotland, went tosome minimal water access in remote areas.
So they had removed the flush.
In certain types of toilets andhad actually, this was pre COVID,
had put hand sanitization, handsanitizer gel in lieu of water.
So you will change the design based on theenvironment and the climate that is in.
(25:51):
But then you've also got thecultural factors as well.
So in the UK.
went to, a university that hadspaces for washing before prayer
within the public toilets.
And there's a researcher calledKelly Dromboski who's talking about
hygiene being situated In Tibet,they don't want to wash their hands
(26:14):
with water because they can getfrostbite because it is so cold.
So you need different ways ofmaking sure body parts are clean.
So it's really important tolook at the local climate,
but then also local culture.
To how public toilets will be used.
And what are those different hygieneactivities that need to occur around them?
(26:36):
Yeah, you've obviously,
oh, sorry, you go.
I was traveling around Japan on apretty remote rail line and the train
stopped in the middle of nowhere.
And there was a composttoilet, on the platform.
Katherine, just quite remarkablebecause they didn't have water.
They couldn't supply power to that spot
I think that's a
brilliant
example.
Um, I was just interested to knowwith all the travel that you've done,
(26:59):
whether there were particular culturesor particular countries that might
address public toilets better thanothers, or that you think are leading
the way in terms of toilet design?
So I, I'm not sure if there'scountries that are doing it, but I
think it might be more located tospecific places or spaces or managers.
(27:20):
So in Portland, there's thePortland Loop, which was
designed for the local community.
Now it can fit a wholeshopping trolley in the space.
It's the size of a car park.
Design supports the unhousedpopulation, but it's also great
for parents with prams or doubleprams, great for mobility scooters.
(27:41):
So I think once you've got thatlocal feedback into the design,
it's going to meet their needs.
And before the podcast and Iwere discussing Perfect Days,
which is a Japanese movie, aboutthe public toilets in Tokyo.
So I think that the culture in Japanhas really valued these public toilets.
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You see the beautiful design of them, butthen also the care in the maintenance,
and the cleaning of the public toilets.
So I think it's a really differentview of a dirty space that you only
use when you really, really have to.
So I think that.
At them, but it in some respectsdoes need that cultural shift.
(28:28):
Jess, I can speak to that.
I mean, the Japanese, toilets,public toilets are outstanding.
You can eat in there and it's so wellmaintained no matter where they are.
But I think that goes backto the societal, system of
trust and also politeness.
I think there's a lot to do withthe culture in public toilets.
(28:51):
I mean, as you say, Katherine, that moviePerfect Days, which we'll put in the
episode notes, is all about a cleaner whocleans the Japanese art toilets, which
I think you were referring to before.
But following Japan, I think,Jess, Singapore would come next
in terms of just the outstandingnature of their public toilets.
(29:13):
But, I don't do public toilettourism, Katherine, you can't help
noticing these things when you travel.
Look, maybe you are a publictoilet tourist, Peter.
You just haven't embracedthat identity yet.
Because I think, you know, it does reallyimpact your experience of traveling.
And Singapore also has the Happy Toilet,program, really looking at how you can
(29:37):
promote public toilets and having thatpride in their public toilets as well.
How do you assess public toilet success?
Think that's a really difficult question.
Looking at how to assess public toilets.
I think it really comes backdown to that user experience.
(29:59):
If people can find it and usethe public toilets and they feel
safe for using them, I think, youknow, that's all the boxes ticked.
You then have to look at the propertymanager, so who's responsible
for the toilet and can it bemaintained, In an affordable way,
because I think there's that tensionbetween the user and the manager.
(30:19):
So I think this is probably an areafor a little bit more research and more
thought about how you can kind of assess.
Whether or not public toilets are working.
I think, Katherine, maybethe design of them too.
If a community, particularly smallercommunities, if a toilet's well designed
and it's working well for visitors orwhoever, people, value in it, right?
(30:46):
Sort of a bit of ownership as well.
Yeah, I think the local ownership I thinkoften can come through through that public
art or that involvement in the design.
But it's one of those types ofinfrastructure that you don't just
build a toilet for the sake ofbuilding it you're building a toilet
because people need to use it.
(31:08):
So having a toilet built thatis locked 23 the day defeats the
purpose of having a toilet there.
So there has to be somethingaround that, that usability.
That feature, but then alsohow it is maintained as well.
Katherine, what's yourattitude to mixed toilets?
So by mixed toilets, are you talking aboutthe unisex or gender neutral toilets?
(31:30):
Yes.
Yeah.
So I think there's a really valuablespace in providing gender neutral toilets.
They serve.
a whole variety of the population,great for parents with children
of a different gender to them.
If you are a mother with a son,what age do you stop bringing
(31:53):
him into the women's toilets?
At what age do you send him intoa male toilets by themselves?
So therefore I think, Mixedtoilets, gender neutral unisex
toilets really can meet that need.
I think also for gender diversepeople, people who are caring.
(32:15):
So I think there is
opportunity to be providing more of them.
I think we see some really greatexamples, in our public spaces,
particularly by beaches, or in parkswhere you just have a row of toilets
that just have both the male andfemale along the door, with a communal.
(32:37):
So you can see who's going inand going out of them that, you
know, not everybody likes them.
So I think it is important thatthey provided with other options.
Of having the specificgender toilets as well.
Which then support thatsafety and privacy.
But I, you know, I'm a bigadvocate for providing more gender
(32:59):
neutral and unisex public toilets.
Mm.
I always get a bit awkward Katherine.
A lot of developments I do developers,not talking about public toilets, but
toilets for businesses and things theydo it as a cost saving feature to have
unisex toilets, but Katherine, what,what's your next project after this?
(33:25):
So I'm looking forward to, there'scurrently a New South Wales parliamentary
inquiry that closes in November 2024.
So I'm looking forward to seeingwhat happens in the New South Wales.
So I would love to develop a community.
Toolkit around public toilets,because I find that a lot of people
(33:47):
are for new public toilets, butdon't know what to do with it.
I also have a sneaky suspicion thatthere's probably a PhD in this topic.
You'll be a doctor.
Yeah.
Toilet.
The Toilet Doctor.
Oh yeah.
I like the Doctor of Dunnies.
That's a good title.
And where can our listeners learnmore and is there any message you
(34:07):
would like to give to our listeners?
Look, I'd love the listeners to think alittle bit more about the public toilets
that they're using, to identify thegreat ones that they use and thank the
property manager or the cleaners of thosethat make those public toilets possible.
To your local council and point out whereyou think a new one could be provided.
(34:29):
You can find my Churchill FellowshipReport, on the Winston Churchill website.
Or QUT ePrints has my thesis if anybodywants to read, those 50, 000 words.
Also, Public toilets anonymous,is my Instagram page where you
will see photos of public toilets.
I've been taking
(34:50):
Terrific Katherine because I'veshared some photos that I've took a
public toilets in Japan with you, butwe'll put all those, on the episode
notes for our listeners to look at sothey can follow through great topic.
Now we're moving on to PodcastExtraculture Corner, and this is where
(35:11):
we ask our guests something they've seen,read, seen, or experienced lately that
might be of interest to our listeners.
It doesn't have to be on topic.
Have you got one for ourlisteners, Katherine?
A book that I really enjoyedreading earlier this year was
Burnham Wood by Eleanor Catton.
(35:33):
It's the tension between different, howdifferent people view what space is for.
Um, I think at the higher level,um, it's a bit of a thriller.
I was unable to put it down.
And it's set in Aotearoa, New Zealand.
So yeah, if anyone wants a goodfiction read, I would recommend
(35:55):
Burnham Wood by Eleanor Caton.
And I can also probably giveyou a bunch of public toilet
related, literature as well.
So there's some fun things out there ifpeople want to dip into those as well.
Presumably Perfect Days, thatJapanese film we mentioned.
Yes, most definitely.
I did enjoy seeing it at the cinema.
(36:15):
Um, great soundtrack, beautifulvisuals, and a beautiful story as well.
So perfect days would bea movie recommendation.
And Jess, your podcast extra.
My podcast extra is, outsourcinggenerally, my husband's been away
for a couple of weeks overseas.
So I've been solo parenting andrelying heavily on something
(36:35):
called the dinner ladies, whichis like a food delivery service.
They do home prepared meals, which arejust like what you would cook at home.
And it's just been an absolute lifesaver.
It's been amazing.
So I have not had time to readany books, Pete, watch any movies.
I've just been getting by really,but he's back now so I'll have
something good for the next one.
(36:58):
Too good for him, Jess.
Oh, sorry.
No, Jess.
Some might say that.
Mine, I've got to justtransit maps app, Katherine.
It's, it's fantastic.
If you want to get from point A to Bpublic transport, I'm using that to
put out a trip, plan out a trip toJapan later this year, but the transit
(37:19):
maps app, lots of tons and tons ofinformation about timetables and routes.
And the second thing I've recentlysubscribed to YouTube premium.
I've abandoned Netflix, Jess, andthere's so much stuff on YouTube,
so many, movies, documentaries.
I don't like to plug a big techcompany, but, I'm just, I'm just going
(37:42):
down lots of rabbit holes, watchinglots of documentaries and loving it.
So there we have, that's mine.
Well, if we're talking apps, I think Ineed to plug the public toilet map app.
Of course.
Get on your phone.
So you can find a public toiletclose to you when you need one.
It's on the website, but also youcan get an app on your phone as well.
(38:05):
So
kind of interesting manages that.
Is that a government app?
It is funded by the Australian government.
Yes.
We're really lucky tohave it in Australia.
Probably tracking your movements.
No pun intended, but if this isgovernment inspired Katherine,
you've got to be careful.
Is there sort of like a group ofpublic toilet enthusiasts or advocates?
(38:29):
I think there's an informalcollection that I have,
connected with across the globe.
But you know, we're not a formal group.
And I think part of the challenges isthat public toilets don't have an owner.
So unlike other forms of infrastructure,we know this landscape architects or urban
designers, transport planners, you know,there's a real gap for public toilets.
(38:50):
So it just requires onadvocates, you know, popping up.
I think you should, create thatspace, Katherine, you'd be great.
You can be the world allianceleader and all this stuff.
No, you've been aterrific guest Katherine.
I've learned an awful lot andI'm sorry about my family joke.
It was a bit, I didn't deliver itthat well, but you've been great.
(39:10):
I'm looking forward to readingyour research and, thank you so
much for coming along, Katherine.
Thanks Katherine.
Thank you, Jess and Peter.
And Jess, always great doing podcastswith you and listeners, we've got our 10th
anniversary party coming up very soon.
We've been, the podcast has been startedin 2014 and we've got a party, which
(39:31):
is going to be out of control and wild,to make sure Jess behaves herself.
Absolutely.
Katherine, if you'rein town, you must come.
Wonderful.
Thank you.
Thanks.
Cheers.
Thanks for listening.
If you would like to hear more of ourpodcasts, hit the follow button on Spotify
or the like button on SoundCloud orthe subscribe button in Apple podcasts.
(39:52):
Please also visit our Instagrampage, LinkedIn or website for behind
the scenes footage of our podcastsand to get the latest on upcoming
or recently released episodes.
If you have any suggestions orfeedback, please get in touch via
our social media channels or byemailing planningexchange at gmail.
com.
A special shout out also
(40:12):
to Jack Bavage, who does
such an incredible job inproducing this podcast.
This is a generaltranscript of the episode.
(00:03):
There have been slight changes toallow for grammar and continuity.
This podcast is supportedby VPLA, Victorian Planning
Environmental Law Association.
Welcome to The Planning Exchange,where we interview built environment
professionals who are doinginteresting work beyond the ordinary.
(00:24):
I'm Jess Noonan, and I'm joinedby my colleague, Peter Jewell.
Access to public toilets forms partof the global framework of human
rights to water and sanitation.
Public toilets provide individual healthbenefits and support people to participate
in public spaces and community activities.
The provision of accessible and inclusivepublic toilets also contributes to
(00:44):
citywide economic development as theycan attract visitors and allow people
to stay in public spaces for longer.
However, access to public toiletscontinues to be limited by the lack
of provision, unsuitable design, poormaintenance and management practices
that restrict access, meaning theserights and benefits are not realized
for all, with a greater impact onpopulations with specific toileting needs.
(01:06):
Today's guest on the podcast is KatherineWeber, an expert on public toilets.
And what I've just read out is part ofthe abstract for her master's thesis
that was published only a few weeks ago.
Welcome to the show, Katherine can westart off with your best toilet joke?
Oh gosh.
I hadn't prepared a toilet joke.
(01:26):
I figured you'd haveso many up your sleeve.
They're often in responseto somebody's comments.
So I'm flushed withexcitement to be here today.
I like it.
Good start.
Now, Katherine, can you start off withtelling us a little bit about how you
came to write a thesis on public toilets?
What's your background?
(01:48):
Thank you, Jess.
I'm joining today, from the Bundjalancountry in northern New South Wales.
And I think I've got an interestingtoilet journey to get me where I am.
So I have a varied educationand employment history.
And I'm currently a teacher.
a social planner, a publictoilet advocate and researcher.
I've worked in local government,mostly in Queensland, and I've also
(02:11):
done some work internationally inPapua New Guinea and Fiji, working on
the UN Women's Safe Cities program.
And I've also worked for anNGO in Australia on sexual
and reproductive health.
All of these jobs have had areally strong focus on social
inclusion and planning for people.
And it was after maybe 10, 12 yearsthat I realized I'd informally been
(02:33):
collecting people's toilet stories.
So often there was a lack ofsuitable toilets, and that was a
barrier for their participation.
And so that's how I got curious, aboutpublic toilets, and recently have become
rather passionate, talking about toilets.
Katherine, in 2018, you were awardedthe Rodney Warmington Churchill
(02:55):
Fellowship to look into inclusion,accessibility in public toilets.
Can you tell us a littlebit about Rodney Warmington?
I hope I've got that right.
And secondly, about theChurchill Fellowship program.
Most definitely.
So the Winston Churchill Trust supportsAustralians to travel overseas to
learn about a topic and then bringthat new knowledge back to Australia.
(03:19):
It's a really fantastic project, becauseyou don't need any specific qualifications
but just a real passion for a topic, andidentify a gap that needs to be addressed.
So Rodney Warmington was an Australianarchitect and his passion was
about barrier free architecture.
In 1966, he became aparaplegic after an accident.
(03:40):
In 1973, he was a Churchill fellowand his fellowship, was exploring
barrier free architecture.
A Churchill Fellowship has been setup in his name, and that supports
any topic that improves mobility,accessibility, or liability, in the
Australian environment or community.
And I've been lucky enough to be oneof four people who've received the
(04:02):
Rodney Warmington Churchill Fellowship.
Other topics have also lookedat building accessibility,
physical activity, and transport.
We'll put in our episode notes.
Katherine will put in your littleYouTube clip where you present
to the Churchill Fellowship.
You went on to do aninternational study tour.
(04:25):
Can you tell us a little bit about this?
So as part of the Churchill Fellowship, Ispent eight weeks traveling UK and Europe.
It was a journey.
A great opportunity to see avariety of public toilets in situ.
But also I got to meetwith toilet activists.
I got to meet with toilet manufacturers,policy makers, and I went on a London
(04:48):
loo tour, which was lots of fun.
So I got to speak to people about thedifferent ways that public toilets
are designed, planned, advocated for.
I ended up taking lots of photographs,and published a report that is available
on the Churchill Fellowship website.
And you've previously said thatpublic toilets are our most important
(05:10):
infrastructure and public spacesand probably the most underrated.
Can you talk to this a little bit?
I know like my personalexperience with public toilets.
In public spaces is pretty varied.
Like I've got two young children and Ifeel like there's never a public toilet.
We want one first of all.
And then like you think about particularlysome of the key tourist destinations
(05:33):
that probably a lot of us Australianshave been to across the world.
I feel like the experience ofpublic toilets in most of those
spaces is probably fairly varied.
Like you think about, parts ofEurope in particular where, You need
to pay to go to a public toilet.
And if you don't have the money oryou don't have the right change,
you can't actually get in easily.
And of course, you know, when you'vegot small children or, you don't
(05:55):
have, the same abilities as whatother people have, that's a very
difficult proposition to be in.
So, yes, it's definitely anunderrated, public resource.
So what are your thoughts around that?
So if we first define publictoilets, they're the toilets that
you use when you're out of the home.
So we've then got twotypes of public toilets.
There's the on street ones, which areavailable in our parks and on our streets.
(06:18):
And there's not necessarilya barrier to accessing using
these, if they're open of course.
We've also then got offstreet public toilets.
Which are the ones that might be inour shopping centers, restaurants,
places of work, et cetera.
And so often you need to be aclient to use these ones as well.
So there can be additionalbarriers to access them.
(06:41):
Now, I think they're really important.
And as you've said, we'veall got bodily functions.
And we all have different levelsof control and cultural ways of
undertaking these bodily functions.
And so if there's not that infrastructure,that's when you really, you notice
when they're not there, or if they'rethere but they can't meet your needs.
(07:02):
Public toilets support thesebodily functions so I hope
people don't get squeamish, butwe've got urination, defecation,
menstruation, taking medications,breastfeeding, mental health breaks.
People will hide away in toilets as well.
So they support a varietyof different uses.
It's really difficult for people tobe able to stay, to use and enjoy
(07:24):
these public spaces and often they'reunderrated because they're not
incorporated into the design, the planningand the management of these spaces.
Katherine, you've said, in some of yourresearchwork that toilets are not seen
as a priority or even as a liability.
How did this situation come aboutand what do you consider it to be?
(07:45):
So, and, and just before you answerthat, um, I was speaking to a colleague
who managed public toilets and fora couple of different councils.
And he said, that they were oneof the biggest problems for the
council in terms of, securityof their staff and maintenance.
Any thoughts about that?
(08:06):
Yeah, so I've touched on thebenefits of having toilets, but
there is also the flip side.
And so while they are an importantinvestment, they can be seen
as unsafe and also costly.
You're interacting with thebehaviors of other people.
So there could be vandalism, violence,drug use, sexual assault are all
reported activities in public toilets.
(08:28):
Then you've also got the fearof germs, the germs of others.
And they can be costly tobuild and costly to maintain.
So I think it is really difficult tobalance these two different perceptions
of public toilets, because they doprovide a real community benefit
when they are provided and they'reaccessible and people can use them,
(08:51):
but there are risks associated withthem that do need to be managed.
Often local governments will closepublic toilets of a nighttime, which
can reduce some of those risks, but thenalso remove some of the access as well.
So they are, I guess, a really complextype of infrastructure that you may not
get with other forms such as, Other formsof infrastructure such as roads and parks,
(09:16):
Generally speaking, I feel like a lotof councils are moving towards those.
I'm sure they've got a technical namebut you know those automated types
of toilets that Personally scared thecrap out of me because I don't want
to get stuck in them, but you know,they've got like the, the button that
you press and the door closes, and itfeels like you're going into a bunker.
(09:36):
I don't know if they've got a technicalname, but, I feel like a lot of them
are moving towards that version now,because obviously they want to be able
to shut them off at particular hours,but in doing so that's obviously a much
more expensive type of infrastructure.
I imagine, versus the old, you know,toilet, just four walls around it
and a single basin outside of it.
(09:57):
You know, the needs havebecome far more complex.
Yeah, Jess, they are calledautomated public toilets.
They are definitely viewed, favorablyby councils and public toilet managers,
because they reduce those risks.
They're automated cleaning, theyautomatically open and close, if you're
in there for too long, they will popopen, so that prevents people from
(10:20):
taking drugs, for sleeping in there.
But you do have that user experience thatthey are not an enjoyable space to use.
They can be really cold, they canbe really harsh, they're often
wet from the recent cleaning.
So,
there is that flip side againof the automated public toilets
that they are meeting a need.
(10:41):
But they also can be moreexpensive to build and install.
Complex, complex.
Katherine, just going back, travelingback in time, public toilets only
came into being in the 19th century.
I mean, I'm sure they were convenientsomehow before that, but they really came
into their force in the 19th century.
(11:04):
What technological and socialchanges made them possible?
So there's been some fantastichistorians that have looked at public
toilets, and they really are linkedin to the industrialization of cities,
because that's when you had peopleliving together, moving around, and
needing the toilets that weren't onthe farm, weren't located in the home.
(11:29):
So it was the industrialization ofcities, people moving in together,
in addition, the sewer system.
And so you needed a way to manage.
All those people's waste.
As part of my Churchill fellowship,I did do the London loo tour, which,
has the history of toilets andsanitation and also visited the cross
nest pumping station, which was,one of the first ways of, I guess,
(11:52):
managing, industrialized cities waste.
Interestingly enough, when citieswere first building public toilets,
they were building them for men.
There has been some great researchlooking at the social acceptability
of women's toilets, and oftenthey were not built for men.
At the same time, and didn't have thesame social acceptability as the men's
(12:15):
public toilets for a variety of reason.
So, you know, women weren't deemedneeding them out in public spaces
because they weren't moving aroundas much as men was the common theme.
They didn't want to see womenusing toilets, that needed to be
something that was more private.
And so, yeah, there's this greattension, although while we did have
(12:35):
You know, cities forming and publictoilets being built, there were still
the gendered impacts of toilets wayback, at the start of our cities.
And was there a civic time of prideor golden age of public toilets?
I think there's, advertising thatyou see in magazines, promoting
(12:59):
toilets and powder rooms for women toencourage them shopping, you know, when
department stores were being created.
And I think partly, you mighthave some of it happening now.
You've got competitions for,the design of public toilets.
And you've also got toilet tourism.
You've got some beautiful publictoilets being built, with public
(13:20):
art incorporated into them.
Up in Maryborough, there's theCistern Chapel, and they have
painted the entire public toiletinside and out, to decorate it.
So I think you've got, you know,there is some level of civic pride now
for some types of, for some toilets.
So I think, yeah, that there is somenow, and I think there's also, there
(13:43):
has been some in the past as well.
Now Katherine, site inspections for townplanning assessments can be difficult
at time, can be very difficult at timesbecause you don't want to intrude and
you don't want to be noticed essentially.
But study tours of public toursmust be a factor of 10 times harder.
(14:04):
Any thoughts, any about your experiences?
Peter, I enjoy visiting a public toilet,you never know what you're gonna find,
I think the difficulty relates to,it's around people, so you just need
to be really careful when you're takingphotos, you don't want other people
in them, no one, no one wants that,but I do have a a Instagram account
(14:29):
and I've taken hundreds of photos ofpublic toilets, and happy to share them.
So I think, they can be fun, butalso you just have to go in knowing
that, it is a private space.
People are doing private activities.
Within a larger public space.
So it just requires alittle bit of sensitivity.
Now Katherine, I think following onfrom your study tour and your master's
(14:51):
thesis, you've got a number of differentrecommendations coming from that.
Can you describe some of these?
Yeah, definitely.
So, as part of the Churchillreport, was really trying to
reframe how we view public toilets.
So, I've talked about seeing publictoilets as a community investment,
(15:13):
not just those risky, scary places.
And I think they dosupport so many benefits.
So, it's making sure that we, Reallyconsider public toilets when we
are building our public spaces.
One of the recommendations I did proposewas for federally funded projects
that have public accessibility toinclude a toilets needs assessment.
(15:37):
So in Wales that requires localgovernments to, undertake a
public toilet needs assessment.
So it's looking at the people andhow they move around their local
government or across transport networks.
To see what toilets they can access and Ithink that's something that we could apply
(16:00):
within the Australian context becauseoften if they are being built or designed
their site by site, so we're not lookingat the network of how people move around.
So I think that's really importantto network approach to public toilets
would be one of the key recommendations.
And so therefore, if we aredoing, you know, mass transit.
(16:23):
Transport projects.
We incorporate public toilets needsassessment into those as well.
Local governments could createlocal public toilet strategies.
So it's really, Looking at publictoilets as an infrastructure that
requires a network, but also respondingto those local community needs.
So making sure planning process, becausedifferent users have different toileting
(16:49):
needs, people with disabilities, willhave different access requirements.
And so they need to be addressed, whichcan be done through planning as well.
And Katherine, the physicaldesign of public toilets as.
First off is placement.
Can you talk to this point?
And I'm a bit of overlap from whatyou've already said, but the placement.
(17:13):
So I think we can all thinkof a time where we've been out
and you can't find the toilet.
Um, you know, it might exist, butthere might not be any signs to it, or
you, you find it, it's down a hallway,up three stairs, around a corner,
past the garbage bins, you get thereand then there needs to be a key.
(17:34):
So you've got to walk all the wayback and hope that you're not in
such an urgent rush so it's reallyimportant that toilets are easy to
find, but in a well located space.
So that's what I mean whenI'm talking about placement.
Or if you're a female, you walk downthe long hallway around the corner
and up three stairs and down anotherhallway, and then find that the line
(17:58):
is about 20 females deep, and thenyou're going to be waiting probably
25 minutes before you can get in.
Anyway, it's a side note.
Um, yeah, there is, um, no,just a statement, sorry,
a whinge.
Oh, well the building codes just did aconsultation on increasing the number of
(18:21):
toilets required in cinemas and theatres.
Theaters.
Well, that was gonna be my exact example.
I was at the theater a couple weeks agoand I, yeah, it was very unpleasant.
Anyway, we don't need to get into thespecifics of that . So obviously there
are, there are other things to considerin designing public toilets such as
privacy, ventilation, and lighting.
(18:43):
How much of this did youexplore through your research?
So there's differenttypes of privacy that.
need to be addressed when they'relooking at public toilets.
So the first one is visual privacy.
So people want to know that otherpeople can't see what they're
doing when they're in a toilet.
Now this differs when itcomes to urinals and cubicles.
(19:06):
So cubicles where people aresitting down, they might be
removing parts of their clothing.
They want to make sure peoplecan't see above or below
the doors or between cracks.
In urinals, there is not as much privacy.
There may not be dividersbetween different urinals.
They may not be in a cubicle.
So you've got that differentlevel of visual privacy.
(19:27):
You've also got auditory privacy.
So people don't necessarilywant to hear what's happening
in the cubicle next to them.
Then you've got, ventilationcan relate to olfactory privacy.
So people don't want to smell what'shappening next door or what's been,
what's happened in the toilet just,you know, before they've arrived.
So, You know, these are factors that doneed to be considered in the design and
(19:51):
planning, and then on the flip side ofprivacy is safety and lighting can be
one way of, of addressing safety as well.
So, making sure that you can see thewhole toilet, that there aren't dark
places that people might be hiding in.
So, All of these design factors makepeople feel safe by having a sense
(20:16):
of privacy, but then also, knowingwhat's happening in there and what's
not happening in those spaces.
And the good thing, Katherine, isthat you would have seen many examples
where all those factors are neatlyaddressed so you get a good outcome.
(20:37):
Often you do see one ortwo of a good example.
I think it also depends on when apublic toilet is built, to what are the
factors that are, Influence the design.
With most built infrastructure,they last for a really long time.
So they're not often updated.
So I think the more modern public toiletsare definitely addressing the visual
(21:01):
privacy, but then also that safety.
So you've got individual privacywhen you're using a cubicle, but
you've also got better sightlinesthrough the whole building.
So people don't feel like they'reentrapped when they go into a
public space, public toilet.
Yeah.
It's interesting that my contactattendant Katherine said, A lot of the
(21:23):
old sort of concrete block, Bessa blocktoilets, the council's just bulldozing
them and starting again, because ofall the factors that you mentioned.
But moving on to materials andsurfaces, they have a significant
impact on cleaning and maintenanceand therefore the ongoing performance.
(21:43):
As attractive as theycan be public spaces.
Can you talk to some of those factors.
So, I think it really is important toconsider the location of the public
toilets, and that associated level of use.
And the level of management.
So the automated public toilets canbe really useful when there's a really
(22:04):
high level of use, and you're notgoing to be able to maintain them.
One location is Byron Bay by the beach.
So you've got a lot of tourists that arecoming, a lot of salt, a lot of sand.
So you've got.
An automated public toilet there that,you know, is just locations where they
could work really well at a nighttimeentertainment precincts where there
(22:28):
could be a lot of nighttime drinking.
You know, so you're not necessarilygoing to have that maintenance
happening over an evening.
The cleaning and the maintenance arevital to ensure functioning public
toilets that people actually want to use.
You know, we've all been to a publictoilet where you've walked in and
you've kind of walked back out again.
(22:48):
If you haven't really needed to go becauseit hasn't felt clean and well maintained,
and that is also related to thematerials and the surfaces that they use.
So, stainless steel, you know, isreally durable, but it's also can
be a not great user experience.
For example, Canberra in winter, you'renot really going to want to sit down
on a rather cold stainless steel.
(23:10):
So there does need to be that tensionbetween materials and surfaces versus
the use, like the level of use andthen the cleaning and maintenance.
Something you probably didn't know aboutme, Pete, and obviously Katherine, I had a
fear of public toilets when I was a littlegirl, mostly because of the old stainless
steel toilets, which you just mentioned.
(23:31):
And as soon as you said the wordstainless steel, I felt like I had a
shut up because my, I still rememberwe did a lot of camping when I was
little and my mom used to sort oflike force me into the public toilets,
for showers and, you know, Whatever.
And, I just remember so clearlyjust being petrified of those
stainless steel toilets.
I was, I don't know what it was.
I think it was probably the combinationof the materials, but also the fact
(23:54):
that there were, there was generally notoilet seats on them back in those days.
And, you know, just the wholeexperience was horrendous.
And I think I just, as a small childthought that something was going to
jump up and bite me from those toilets.
It was awful.
Jess, actually that explainsa lot about your personality.
No, I'm being facetiousKatherine, that's terrible.
(24:15):
Jess, I'm glad you shared thatwith us because that, Katherine,
that's the sort of things thattoilet researchers should look into.
Yep.
And to this day, there is no way you wouldget me near a stainless steel toilet.
I would just walk straight out again.
Katherine, that's probably agood time for me to tell my joke.
But, this is a longstanding family joke.
Katherine, my father was an architect andone of his, early projects was designing
(24:40):
a public toilet in Geelong, one of thoseones where you go down the steps in the
center of Geelong, and once that wasdone, he was known by all his mates as
being a very shit arse architect, but,anyway, sorry, that's my joke, Jess.
Ha ha
He did do other things, Katherine.
Anyway, the local climateand culture affects public
(25:04):
So I've talked about Canberra in winter,and I think what I learned through
the Churchill was that it does matter.
So in Portland, Oregon, whichis, the North West coast of the
USA, the pipes freeze in winter.
So they're designing publictoilets that will experience snow.
(25:26):
When I was traveling in Scotland, went tosome minimal water access in remote areas.
So they had removed the flush.
In certain types of toilets andhad actually, this was pre COVID,
had put hand sanitization, handsanitizer gel in lieu of water.
So you will change the design based on theenvironment and the climate that is in.
(25:51):
But then you've also got thecultural factors as well.
So in the UK.
went to, a university that hadspaces for washing before prayer
within the public toilets.
And there's a researcher calledKelly Dromboski who's talking about
hygiene being situated In Tibet,they don't want to wash their hands
(26:14):
with water because they can getfrostbite because it is so cold.
So you need different ways ofmaking sure body parts are clean.
So it's really important tolook at the local climate,
but then also local culture.
To how public toilets will be used.
And what are those different hygieneactivities that need to occur around them?
(26:36):
Yeah, you've obviously,
oh, sorry, you go.
I was traveling around Japan on apretty remote rail line and the train
stopped in the middle of nowhere.
And there was a composttoilet, on the platform.
Katherine, just quite remarkablebecause they didn't have water.
They couldn't supply power to that spot
I think that's a
brilliant
example.
Um, I was just interested to knowwith all the travel that you've done,
(26:59):
whether there were particular culturesor particular countries that might
address public toilets better thanothers, or that you think are leading
the way in terms of toilet design?
So I, I'm not sure if there'scountries that are doing it, but I
think it might be more located tospecific places or spaces or managers.
(27:20):
So in Portland, there's thePortland Loop, which was
designed for the local community.
Now it can fit a wholeshopping trolley in the space.
It's the size of a car park.
Design supports the unhousedpopulation, but it's also great
for parents with prams or doubleprams, great for mobility scooters.
(27:41):
So I think once you've got thatlocal feedback into the design,
it's going to meet their needs.
And before the podcast and Iwere discussing Perfect Days,
which is a Japanese movie, aboutthe public toilets in Tokyo.
So I think that the culture in Japanhas really valued these public toilets.
(28:06):
You see the beautiful design of them, butthen also the care in the maintenance,
and the cleaning of the public toilets.
So I think it's a really differentview of a dirty space that you only
use when you really, really have to.
So I think that.
At them, but it in some respectsdoes need that cultural shift.
(28:28):
Jess, I can speak to that.
I mean, the Japanese, toilets,public toilets are outstanding.
You can eat in there and it's so wellmaintained no matter where they are.
But I think that goes backto the societal, system of
trust and also politeness.
I think there's a lot to do withthe culture in public toilets.
(28:51):
I mean, as you say, Katherine, that moviePerfect Days, which we'll put in the
episode notes, is all about a cleaner whocleans the Japanese art toilets, which
I think you were referring to before.
But following Japan, I think,Jess, Singapore would come next
in terms of just the outstandingnature of their public toilets.
(29:13):
But, I don't do public toilettourism, Katherine, you can't help
noticing these things when you travel.
Look, maybe you are a publictoilet tourist, Peter.
You just haven't embracedthat identity yet.
Because I think, you know, it does reallyimpact your experience of traveling.
And Singapore also has the Happy Toilet,program, really looking at how you can
(29:37):
promote public toilets and having thatpride in their public toilets as well.
How do you assess public toilet success?
Think that's a really difficult question.
Looking at how to assess public toilets.
I think it really comes backdown to that user experience.
(29:59):
If people can find it and usethe public toilets and they feel
safe for using them, I think, youknow, that's all the boxes ticked.
You then have to look at the propertymanager, so who's responsible
for the toilet and can it bemaintained, In an affordable way,
because I think there's that tensionbetween the user and the manager.
(30:19):
So I think this is probably an areafor a little bit more research and more
thought about how you can kind of assess.
Whether or not public toilets are working.
I think, Katherine, maybethe design of them too.
If a community, particularly smallercommunities, if a toilet's well designed
and it's working well for visitors orwhoever, people, value in it, right?
(30:46):
Sort of a bit of ownership as well.
Yeah, I think the local ownership I thinkoften can come through through that public
art or that involvement in the design.
But it's one of those types ofinfrastructure that you don't just
build a toilet for the sake ofbuilding it you're building a toilet
because people need to use it.
(31:08):
So having a toilet built thatis locked 23 the day defeats the
purpose of having a toilet there.
So there has to be somethingaround that, that usability.
That feature, but then alsohow it is maintained as well.
Katherine, what's yourattitude to mixed toilets?
So by mixed toilets, are you talking aboutthe unisex or gender neutral toilets?
(31:30):
Yes.
Yeah.
So I think there's a really valuablespace in providing gender neutral toilets.
They serve.
a whole variety of the population,great for parents with children
of a different gender to them.
If you are a mother with a son,what age do you stop bringing
(31:53):
him into the women's toilets?
At what age do you send him intoa male toilets by themselves?
So therefore I think, Mixedtoilets, gender neutral unisex
toilets really can meet that need.
I think also for gender diversepeople, people who are caring.
(32:15):
So I think there is
opportunity to be providing more of them.
I think we see some really greatexamples, in our public spaces,
particularly by beaches, or in parkswhere you just have a row of toilets
that just have both the male andfemale along the door, with a communal.
(32:37):
So you can see who's going inand going out of them that, you
know, not everybody likes them.
So I think it is important thatthey provided with other options.
Of having the specificgender toilets as well.
Which then support thatsafety and privacy.
But I, you know, I'm a bigadvocate for providing more gender
(32:59):
neutral and unisex public toilets.
Mm.
I always get a bit awkward Katherine.
A lot of developments I do developers,not talking about public toilets, but
toilets for businesses and things theydo it as a cost saving feature to have
unisex toilets, but Katherine, what,what's your next project after this?
(33:25):
So I'm looking forward to, there'scurrently a New South Wales parliamentary
inquiry that closes in November 2024.
So I'm looking forward to seeingwhat happens in the New South Wales.
So I would love to develop a community.
Toolkit around public toilets,because I find that a lot of people
(33:47):
are for new public toilets, butdon't know what to do with it.
I also have a sneaky suspicion thatthere's probably a PhD in this topic.
You'll be a doctor.
Yeah.
Toilet.
The Toilet Doctor.
Oh yeah.
I like the Doctor of Dunnies.
That's a good title.
And where can our listeners learnmore and is there any message you
(34:07):
would like to give to our listeners?
Look, I'd love the listeners to think alittle bit more about the public toilets
that they're using, to identify thegreat ones that they use and thank the
property manager or the cleaners of thosethat make those public toilets possible.
To your local council and point out whereyou think a new one could be provided.
(34:29):
You can find my Churchill FellowshipReport, on the Winston Churchill website.
Or QUT ePrints has my thesis if anybodywants to read, those 50, 000 words.
Also, Public toilets anonymous,is my Instagram page where you
will see photos of public toilets.
I've been taking
(34:50):
Terrific Katherine because I'veshared some photos that I've took a
public toilets in Japan with you, butwe'll put all those, on the episode
notes for our listeners to look at sothey can follow through great topic.
Now we're moving on to PodcastExtraculture Corner, and this is where
(35:11):
we ask our guests something they've seen,read, seen, or experienced lately that
might be of interest to our listeners.
It doesn't have to be on topic.
Have you got one for ourlisteners, Katherine?
A book that I really enjoyedreading earlier this year was
Burnham Wood by Eleanor Catton.
(35:33):
It's the tension between different, howdifferent people view what space is for.
Um, I think at the higher level,um, it's a bit of a thriller.
I was unable to put it down.
And it's set in Aotearoa, New Zealand.
So yeah, if anyone wants a goodfiction read, I would recommend
(35:55):
Burnham Wood by Eleanor Caton.
And I can also probably giveyou a bunch of public toilet
related, literature as well.
So there's some fun things out there ifpeople want to dip into those as well.
Presumably Perfect Days, thatJapanese film we mentioned.
Yes, most definitely.
I did enjoy seeing it at the cinema.
(36:15):
Um, great soundtrack, beautifulvisuals, and a beautiful story as well.
So perfect days would bea movie recommendation.
And Jess, your podcast extra.
My podcast extra is, outsourcinggenerally, my husband's been away
for a couple of weeks overseas.
So I've been solo parenting andrelying heavily on something
(36:35):
called the dinner ladies, whichis like a food delivery service.
They do home prepared meals, which arejust like what you would cook at home.
And it's just been an absolute lifesaver.
It's been amazing.
So I have not had time to readany books, Pete, watch any movies.
I've just been getting by really,but he's back now so I'll have
something good for the next one.
(36:58):
Too good for him, Jess.
Oh, sorry.
No, Jess.
Some might say that.
Mine, I've got to justtransit maps app, Katherine.
It's, it's fantastic.
If you want to get from point A to Bpublic transport, I'm using that to
put out a trip, plan out a trip toJapan later this year, but the transit
(37:19):
maps app, lots of tons and tons ofinformation about timetables and routes.
And the second thing I've recentlysubscribed to YouTube premium.
I've abandoned Netflix, Jess, andthere's so much stuff on YouTube,
so many, movies, documentaries.
I don't like to plug a big techcompany, but, I'm just, I'm just going
(37:42):
down lots of rabbit holes, watchinglots of documentaries and loving it.
So there we have, that's mine.
Well, if we're talking apps, I think Ineed to plug the public toilet map app.
Of course.
Get on your phone.
So you can find a public toiletclose to you when you need one.
It's on the website, but also youcan get an app on your phone as well.
(38:05):
So
kind of interesting manages that.
Is that a government app?
It is funded by the Australian government.
Yes.
We're really lucky tohave it in Australia.
Probably tracking your movements.
No pun intended, but if this isgovernment inspired Katherine,
you've got to be careful.
Is there sort of like a group ofpublic toilet enthusiasts or advocates?
(38:29):
I think there's an informalcollection that I have,
connected with across the globe.
But you know, we're not a formal group.
And I think part of the challenges isthat public toilets don't have an owner.
So unlike other forms of infrastructure,we know this landscape architects or urban
designers, transport planners, you know,there's a real gap for public toilets.
(38:50):
So it just requires onadvocates, you know, popping up.
I think you should, create thatspace, Katherine, you'd be great.
You can be the world allianceleader and all this stuff.
No, you've been aterrific guest Katherine.
I've learned an awful lot andI'm sorry about my family joke.
It was a bit, I didn't deliver itthat well, but you've been great.
(39:10):
I'm looking forward to readingyour research and, thank you so
much for coming along, Katherine.
Thanks Katherine.
Thank you, Jess and Peter.
And Jess, always great doing podcastswith you and listeners, we've got our 10th
anniversary party coming up very soon.
We've been, the podcast has been startedin 2014 and we've got a party, which
(39:31):
is going to be out of control and wild,to make sure Jess behaves herself.
Absolutely.
Katherine, if you'rein town, you must come.
Wonderful.
Thank you.
Thanks.
Cheers.
Thanks for listening.
If you would like to hear more of ourpodcasts, hit the follow button on Spotify
or the like button on SoundCloud orthe subscribe button in Apple podcasts.
(39:52):
Please also visit our Instagrampage, LinkedIn or website for behind
the scenes footage of our podcastsand to get the latest on upcoming
or recently released episodes.
If you have any suggestions orfeedback, please get in touch via
our social media channels or byemailing planningexchange at gmail.
com.
A special shout out also
(40:12):
to Jack Bavage, who does
such an incredible job inproducing this podcast.
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