March 2, 2025 • 57 mins
In PX128 our guest is architect and author Jorge Almazan. Jorge is a Tokyo-based architect and associate professor at Keio University. He holds a degree in architecture from the Polytechnic University of Madrid and a PhD from the Tokyo Institute of Technology. His practice focuses on ecologically responsible and socially inclusive design, ranging from urban to interior projects. His built work has earned significant recognition in Japan, including the Ota City Urban Landscape First Prize (2019) and selections by the Japan Institute of Architects (2018, 2022) and the Architectural Institute of Japan (2023). Almazán's research on Tokyo has been published in numerous academic journals, and his book, Emergent Tokyo: Designing the Spontaneous City (Oro Editions, 2021), was a finalist for the 2023 Pattis Family Foundation Global Cities Book Award.
‘Emergent Tokyo: Designing the Spontaneous City’ was mentioned in a recent article in the Wall Street Journal about visiting Tokyo on a budget, using the book as a guide
In podcast extra / culture corner, Jorge recommends two Netflix programs that feature Tokyo. These are ‘Midnight Diner’ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Midnight_Diner_(Japanese_TV_series) and ’Tokyo Swindlers’ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tokyo_Swindlers.
Jess recommends getting back into tennis as she returns to the court. Pete recommends the ‘New Books’ podcast series https://newbooksnetwork.com.
Episode PX128 was released on 3 March 2025.
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Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
This podcast is supported by VPLA.
Victorian PlanningEnvironmental Law Association.
Welcome to the Planning Exchangewhere we interview built environment
professionals who are doinginteresting work beyond the ordinary.
I'm Jess Noonan and I'm joinedby my colleague Peter Jewell.
Today we're speaking with JorgeAlmazán, a Spanish architect and
(00:21):
author based in Tokyo in Japan.
Jorge is an associate professorat Keio University and the founder
of StudioLab, an architecturallaboratory based at the university.
He also has his own independentarchitecture studio under the
name of Jorge Almazán Architects.
Tokyo is one of the most vibrantand livable cities on the
(00:41):
planet, a mega city that somehowremains intimate and adaptive.
Compared to Western metropolises likeNew York or Paris, however, few outsiders
understand Tokyo's inner workings.
For cities around the globe miredin crisis and seeking new models
for the future, Tokyo's success atbalancing between massive growth and
local communal life poses a challenge.
(01:04):
Can we design other cities toemulate its best qualities?
Jorge is the author of Emergent Tokyo,Designing the Spontaneous City, a
book that examines Tokyo's builtform through five core typologies.
The book characterizes Tokyo, oneof the world's largest cities, as
simultaneously intimate and livableas a result of its unique urban form.
(01:24):
Welcome to the show, Jorge.
Hello.
Thank you for having me.
Would you mind just giving our listenersan overview of your background and
experience and how you came to be?
Located in Tokyo.
Yeah, well, I'm, I'm a, an architectI studied I finished my, my studies
(01:44):
and I, I obtained the architecturallicense in, in Madrid, in Spain.
And as really many, many studentsI came with a scholarship from the
Japanese Ministry of Education to Japan.
At the beginning it was supposedto be a couple of years, but well,
I really you know, found a reallyfascinating opportunities here.
(02:09):
And well, I stayed and it hasbeen like 20 years already.
Jorge, can you tell our listeners aboutyour architectural practice in Tokyo?
What type of work do you do?
Okay.
Well although the office is based inTokyo basically within, you know, like
(02:29):
the core areas we do mostly commercialwork like interior renovations or,
or we have been doing also likekind of a couple of designs for,
more like residential also works.
But most, most of our work is in factoutside In the countryside and we
have done some renovations of woodentraditional houses, the so called akiya
(02:55):
akiya means in Japanese like vacanthouse or empty houses, and there's a
whole movement now to renovate them.
So we have been working in, in, inlike those two kind of realms, you
know, like the, the inner, more innerkind of very commercial, very fast
kind of work and more kind of lowpaced like work in the countryside.
(03:17):
And has your work.
Evolved quite a bit, I guess, overthe 20 years that you've been there.
Yeah, completely.
I mean, I, I was really I learned a lot.
I, I, I was lucky enough to workwith some architects, Japanese
architects that I really admired.
And I think I mean, coming from Spain,the most striking difference is how
(03:40):
architecture changes when you come froma, from a culture of stone and brick.
And to a culture of wood, right?
Wooden architecture.
Basically, in Spain, it's everything donewith this mentality of mortar, stone, etc.
But even, I mean, the whole production,the whole architecture is based on that.
(04:05):
And basically, in Japan,it's everything about wood.
So you don't work, you won't.
You work, you don't work with masons,you work with carpenters, really.
So I think this changes a lot, theconception of space, how you design.
And well, it also kind of allowsyou to understand many things about
(04:25):
cities, because for example, Tokyo,70 percent of Tokyo is made of wood.
This is something that people don't know.
They think of Tokyo as a huge mega city.
It is, but it's made of wood.
So this kind of, it helped mereally to understand also the, my,
my surroundings, the environmentin which I was working and living.
70 percent would never haveguessed it would be that high.
(04:49):
Well, you know it's, it's somethingthat you know, coming from Europe we're
always surprised, but maybe peoplecan understand it also in comparison
with the United States, right?
We saw these fires, right, inCalifornia, and we, We were surprised,
like, how easily, you know, thewhole areas of, I mean, huge areas,
big neighborhoods were affected.
(05:11):
And well, we have to understand thatthat it's this kind of tradition
of balloon frame construction.
And something very similaris happening also in Japan.
Of course, it's a completely differentbackground, but well, Tokyo is mainly Low
rise city made of single family housesand most of them are made of wood even
(05:31):
if you don't if they don't seem likewooden houses because they are kind of
Covered or with different materials.
But yes, I think this is an estimatethat I have Read in a couple of places
the 70 percent of Tokyo is wooden
amazing
(05:52):
Also the cultural information thatyou must gain and you must learn.
The Japanese have a very particularculture that would have been very
I don't know whether it was afast process or a quick process.
I imagine it was an extremely interestingprocess, learning a lot of cultural norms.
(06:12):
And applying themin, your work situation.
Well, definitely.
I mean, that's that's something thatit's is the first barrier, right?
Together with the, with the, with thelanguage, with the Japanese language.
And there is, I mean, I don'tthink it's easy because there
are like so many protocols thatone needs to learn and follow.
(06:33):
But at the same time, and Ithink this connects with the
book, once you live here.
You see that well, I think this,what I'm going to say is very
obvious and, but you see that theyare like kind of universal kind of
rules in human behavior, let's say.
And this, this cultural kind of Layersstart to disappear or dissolve after so
(06:58):
many years, so I don't feel anymore thatI'm in a kind of this exotic place, I
think I think it's it's every culturedevelop a series of protocols and a
series of written and unwritten rules andYou know, yeah, maybe Japan is a little
(07:18):
bit surprising from a Western Europeanviewpoint But it's not so much if you look
at it from a more East Asian viewpoint.
In that case, from that viewpoint,we are exotic and different, right?
So I think the cultural part, and Itried also in the book to a little bit
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demystify a little bit some of theseapproaches that always emphasize culture
as the, the most important aspect.
I would say, you know, for me,it was much more difficult really
to navigate many other things.
Like for example, the legislation, forexample, it's, it's quite different
(08:00):
from the Spanish legislation.
And all those unwritten agreements,you know, that happen in the work
environment, which are of coursedifferent from European or the
European cultural agreements.
But yeah, I think culture issomething that's somehow disappears
once you start living here or in anycountry, I think for a long time.
(08:22):
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It's a beautiful book.
I've got the book in front of me now.
It's a gorgeously presented book,beautiful illustrations, well set out.
(08:46):
But I wanted to ask you the bookorigins, what inspired you to write
the book about Tokyo's urban design?
And how does your book differfrom other studies of the city?
Yeah, well , I really needed to, tothere was really a necessity to, to
write this book because first of all,because most books about Tokyo are
(09:09):
quite old fashioned and the recentones are more like compilations of.
Chapters and like edited bookswith without a cohesive kind
of topic across the book.
So I think I needed toupdate a little bit.
And, and my main intention was alittle bit to kind of fight these,
(09:34):
let's say, cultural essentialistkind of viewpoint that most authors
use when they address Tokyo.
So, you know, for many authors, theytry to explain Tokyo, which is obviously
a very striking city and similarlydisorderly and messy trying to go through
(09:56):
cultural explanations, you know, like,for example trying to go into religion
trying to go into Shintoism, for example,and how in Shintoism everything is about
change and how you know, for example, IseJingu, this shrine, the most important
shrine in Japan, is rebuilt every 20years, and therefore, for Japanese is
(10:19):
normal and kind of self obvious thatarchitecture needs to be demolished,
continuously demolished and so on.
So I kind of found like so manycultural explanations and I was really
frustrated because in every article andevery book and every symposium that I
(10:42):
attended, I found the same Explanationsrepeated and I thought that it was
becoming more like a stereotype or acliche that nobody's really checking.
And me living here and actually working,I realized that you know it's not
about, not everything is about Zen orShintoism, etc. And not everything is
(11:03):
about this kind of mystery and exoticism.
It's more about Well, the sameas any other country it's about
institutional frameworks, legislation,sociology political struggle.
Japanese tend to sell themselves alittle bit like a harmonious society.
(11:25):
But once you live here,you see, that's not true.
I mean, they have struggles and,and of course, they politically,
they are like a different opinions.
And even in your, you know, any, anyworkplace, you know, you, you will see
the same kind of conflicts that yousee everywhere in any other country.
So I really needed to kind of lookat Tokyo in the same way anyone
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would look at a European city orWestern city without those layers
of exoticism and essentialism.
And how would you describeTokyo's urban design philosophy?
What makes it unique compared toother global cities do you think?
Well first of all, the book starts byexplaining that there are many Tokyos.
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So it's, you have to imagine thatthis is a city in which one, one
third of Japan, well a city, like,let's say like a, a metropolis, right?
A metropolitan region in one, inwhich one third of Japan is living.
So it's huge.
And there are like many kinds of Tokyo.
But so we start by classifyingusing data science, using the huge
(12:39):
amount of data now available throughthe Tokyo government's website.
And yeah, first of all, I wouldsay there are many kinds of Tokyo.
And the second point was like.
What is the most kind of uniquecharacter, which part or which
aspect could we emphasize inorder to learn from Tokyo, right?
(13:04):
In the same way we architects learnfrom Paris, we learn from New York.
They're like certain cities in the world.
that any architect and anyurbanist wants to visit.
And I, I wanted to put Tokyo also inthe same, at the same level, not only,
you know, this kind of exotic place.
So, from my viewpoint, what makesTokyo unique is its emergent character.
(13:29):
And that's why I callthe book Emergent Tokyo.
It means that yeah, it is true thatcompared with let's say Western
European cities the city looks, Tokyolooks Let's use this word chaotic or
messy, but in reality what is goingon is a different kind of order.
(13:51):
It's a different kind of order that it'smore like bottom up rather than top down.
And by This is preciselythe meaning of emergence.
Emergence is the creation of orderand functionality from the bottom up.
So I was trying to illustrate throughspecific case studies how these, I would
(14:14):
say maybe unwanted philosophy or, orunsign philosophy because at the end
it's not like in, to a large extent.
It's not like it's, itis a conscious decision.
But more like like a, like kindof a topic or, or kind of a common
framework through which we can startlooking at talking a different way.
(14:35):
Not anymore as.
as chaos, but as order.
Jorge,
I've been to Tokyo a number of timesand your, your observations about Tokyo
having many, many different Tokyos.
I mean, there's a lot of variation acrossthe different Areas, the different urban
(14:57):
areas of Tokyo, but there is they arestructured, even though at the ground
level, there is always a lot of lifeat ground level, but the network of the
city, the, the services required, thethe transport they all, all the community
centers, they, they all fit in, but.
(15:18):
I can understand why people think it'schaotic, but the Japanese are very
practical people from my experience.
But how you describe it, the bottomup approach to urbanism is fantastic.
Tell our readers about howyou've structured the book.
You've talked about very specifictopics in some of the chapters.
(15:41):
Can you talk how you structured thebook and what things you focused on?
Okay, well well, this idea of emergenceand top bottom up order sounds a little
bit abstract, in fact, it's an abstractconcept, but yeah, I wanted to give
specific examples, right, in order toreally substantiate and check that idea.
(16:03):
So the book is basically subdividedinto, into a number of chapters,
and that focus is on five.
What do I call urban patternsor regularities across Tokyo?
One is one of those regularitiesare the Yokocho alleyways.
Yokocho is like Kind of a bar district,tiny, really tiny micro bar district.
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These are the Yokocho alleyways.
Then the second typology arethe Zakyo buildings, multi
tenant commercial buildings thatare called Zakyo in Japanese.
Then I focus on the under trackinfields architecture under elevated
highways and elevated railways.
And then I, I go to the ankyo streets.
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Ankyo means in Japanese something likecovered river or cover, covered waterways.
There are many of these and surprisinglythey are quite fascinating too.
And the last pattern are is thedense low rise neighborhoods.
In this case I mentioned that mostof Tokyo is low rise, but I went to
(17:10):
the the most extreme cases in whichyou find the highest density and also
a kind of coherence in, the, in thecharacter of, in this low rise character.
So those are the, the five patternsand each pattern is again, like they're
illustrated through three cases studiesso that different types of of the same
(17:34):
pattern so that the reader can have likean organized framework in order to really
take the book and walk across Tokyo andsee how these top down orders actually
are happening there in front of theireyes or in front of the visitor's eyes.
(17:54):
Well, Jorge, I think you have writtena travel guide for urbanists and
architects with your your book.
I think any planners or urbanistsor Architects or developers who
want to learn about the, theseapproaches can, can use your book as
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a guidebook to these different placesand the different examples you give.
Yeah.
Well, that, that was alittle bit the intention.
So it's a kind of It'sa, it's a hybrid book.
You know, I always admired thearchitectural manifestos , of
architects, right?
Like Le Corbusier and well,maybe the last one would be
like Kolha's Delirious New York.
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And of course we have Jane Jacobs.
She was not an architect,but it's a kind of manifesto.
So I wanted to do that kind of.
Try to use the excuse off of analyzinga city in order to show a different
way to design our environment more.
This bottom up way.
And at the same time each Chapter or eachpattern is written in a narrative way.
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So it's like a small story.
It's like a small, you know,narrative for each place.
And, you know, the book includesmany drawings, a map of Tokyo, so
that it's a kind of hybrid book.
You can use it in different ways.
Jorge, you speak to the conceptof spontaneous city design and
obviously the name of the booksort of reflects that as well.
(19:22):
Can you explain what that meansin practice and how that shapes.
Okay.
Well, there are like many waysand that's why I wanted to
cover like different cases.
So we have in the book we havebuildings, we have interiors we'll
have, if we go from the small scale,we have interiors, we have buildings.
(19:44):
Like the commercial Zaku buildings.
We have streets and at the end we haveneighborhoods So it's a little bit
structured in that way So that you cansee how this spontaneous design happens
or could happen across different scalesbut if I start with the most obvious
case, which is the Yokocho Alleyways.
(20:06):
I would say that the key in thatcase is the small scale, , the
possibility for individuals tocustomize their own environment.
So that at the end, thiskind of Spontaneous way.
It doesn't produce just, youknow, conflicts or, or chaos.
(20:28):
But as we can see in the case ofYokocho, it's, it creates a, a
positive and a, a kind of synergeticas a, a kind of emergent effect.
So Yokocho, for example, are, verytiny bars really, which maybe only
five or six people can persons can sit.
I mean, a scale I've neverseen in, in another country.
(20:51):
And they are clustered together, alongalleyways or sometimes in, in certain
districts, in, in forming a kind ofa a greet and, basically each, the
most characteristic kind of yokochowould be, if I give you an example,
would be a golden guy in Shinjuku.
But basically in all cases it's so tinyand it's so kind of intimate that it
(21:17):
allows the owner to paid for a very cheapprice and the owner can manage by itself.
So at the end, it's like supercustomized space and they cluster
together so that at the end you have.
something which is much morethan the sum of its parts.
When you go to Golden Gai, for example,you don't go to one single place, but
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you kind of jump from one to the other.
You enjoy differentatmospheres, different people.
And at the end, you have somethingthat because of its scale, very
close to the human scale, right?
Or, or community scale can be managedby one person or by a small group
or a small community, something thatcan be managed , by the, you know,
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this small kind of small entity.
But at the same time, by clusteringtogether, by Being together in a
relationship of competition, this iswhat I call it, it's a cooperation
and competition because, you know,those bars or those buildings,
they also compete with each other.
This relationship of competitionand cooperation creates a whole, an
(22:28):
emergent whole, that makes spontaneitywork as a positive force in the city
and not just as a source of conflicts.
Many, many topics community and socialnetworks Jorge, how do the design
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principles that you describe in yourbook, how do they foster community
bonds and a sense of belonging?
Well, I think I would say that the,spaces , the places that have been
illustrating or analyzing in thebook are precisely those that are
fostering social networks and community.
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I mean, I, I invite anyone whogoes to Tokyo to go to go on
one of these Yokocho places.
And yeah, that person just needs toenter and You know, order anything and
immediately that person will feel thathe or she is in a, is in a third place.
I, I like to use this concept ofRay Oldenburg this concept of some,
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some community place informal publicspace, which is different from
the home and from the workplace.
And, and immediatelyhe will feel accepted.
talking about any kind of privatething, but you know, accepted by anyone.
And the same kind of effect happensin, in a larger scale, for example.
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When we look, for example, at theneighborhoods the neighborhoods are
also based on alleyways, small spacesrelatively kind of community oriented
or or kind of shopping streets and thosespaces really contribute or kind of foster
social networks in, in a very, in verydifferent ways in the most obvious one
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is because these are places in which.
People can see each other.
People are not in a openspace without character.
They, there is, they can becomeregulars of a bar or a specific shop.
They, it's a human, it's a human networkthat you know, it's quite lost, or you
(24:43):
can see by contrast how it is lost, lost.
In another kind of Tokyo, the Tokyo thattop down Tokyo created by, well, in the
60s and 70s by the, by the government andnow more by large corporations in which
you have like mega towers and shoppingmalls and that kind of human touch is
(25:03):
lost the human contact, the communication,everything becomes franchises.
And chain stores and you know this kindof responsibility or sense of belonging
to one particular place is lost.
So I think by contrast, it's kind of, youcan feel it even anyone I think that goes
(25:25):
to Tokyo and kind of compares betweentwo, two kinds of Tokyo, one more like
like redeveloped Tokyo and the otherwould be my more organic Tokyo, will feel
immediately it's kind of very, very easyto, to, to see the difference, I think.
And,
and how does Tokyo balance thehistorical architectural elements
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that it has alongside, I guess,the really modern cutting edge
architecture that we're seeing?
Well, I think that's somethingwhich is it's, it's a kind
of a problem, I would say.
Most of the spaces that I describe,I think, I think most people would
not consider them historical ortraditional, because they are
(26:10):
basically post war developments.
So they are not really, I mean, froma European viewpoint, that would be
like, that's not history at all, right?
It's just like contemporary architecture.
So there is a, there is an issuehere because preservation and the
concept of heritage is not so strong.
In Japan also in Tokyo, of course,and I think we, we tend to use, have
(26:36):
these images of blending traditionalmodernity as maybe one of these
images that we have of Tokyo, probablybecause in many touristic brochures and
websites and so on We see the typicalphotograph of a temple or a shrine in the
foreground and some towers at the back.
(26:57):
But this is a very kind of selectedphoto taken from a specific place.
You don't see this.
In most of Tokyo, I think heritage or kindof the historical heritage is being lost.
Or has been lost for, for a great extent.
And even these kind of communityplaces, these organic neighborhoods
(27:18):
that I'm describing in the book,year after year, neighborhood after
neighborhood, are disappearing now.
And we are talking about not justdemolishing a couple of buildings.
We are talking about huge redevelopmentsgoing on precisely in the most historical
areas of Tokyo, precisely in those areasthat have most of the historical and
(27:43):
heritage part are being redeveloped.
And these are really big projects.
I'm talking about fivehectares or eight hectares.
I mean, it's, it's like, Idon't know, like 10 urban
blocks or eight urban blocks.
all demolished at the same time.
And so not even buildings.
(28:04):
I mean, the, the network,right, the, the street network
is also recomposed and redone.
So I would say blending traditionalmodernity is more like I would say Selling
point or a cliche rather than a reality.
And yeah, I think I hope that mybook, which is also translated into
(28:24):
Japanese, helps also to, to kind of youknow, increase the awareness about the
importance of, of layering differentparts of the city, not just demolishing
everything and putting somethingnew, but how beautiful a city is when
when, when you can feel that thereare different historical layers and
the city can still grow and, and, and,and kind of still develop, but without
(28:48):
erasuring everything from the past.
Jorge, I mean, there was a greatearthquake, I think in 1923
in Tokyo, which obliteratedmost of the, much of the city.
And of course, many, many Japanesecities were firebombed and
destroyed in the Second World War.
So as you say, a lot of heritageand also a lot of the buildings
(29:13):
were wooden, as you say.
So I agree, I understand entirely whatyou're saying that the images that a lot
of people have of Japan are not accurate.
Yeah, I mean, it's it's, it's,it's something that yeah, usually
there are like two, two momentsof total destruction in Tokyo.
(29:35):
One is the, the earthquake that youmentioned, but as you, as you mentioned,
it was rather than the earthquakein itself, it was the, the fires.
That followed the earthquake and thesecond one is the, the bombing during the,
during the second world war the alliedbombing of Tokyo, which is not so maybe
(29:55):
known, but it's, it's also comparableto, to the damage created by, by the
of course, the more, more famous atomicbombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
So those are two moments in whichreally like most of Tokyo was not
everything, not every, every place,but a huge amount of Tokyo disappeared.
(30:17):
And that's why many authors and manyresearchers are kind of focusing more
on let's say, a different way to look atheritage and, and historical character,
not anymore Based on buildings, whichsince they are made of wood, they kind of
(30:37):
disappear very easily, but a more focusedon He natural elements like rivers and
topography and natural areas and alsocommunity how different Places managed
to preserve a certain community characterand certain social interactions, even
(31:01):
if they were completely destroyed twice.
And the beauty of Tokyo is that even if wedon't see traditional buildings anymore.
Once we start living here andsee you know, how people interact
and how they care of each other.
They take care of each other andthis community kind of linkages.
(31:23):
You see that in reality there is acontinuity there with the tradition.
And this is maybe a different wayto frame preservation in a culture
of wood different from a kind ofstone culture in which buildings
themselves change or can be demolished.
(31:45):
But there are other things likethe scale the community, the
topographical relationships, therivers and these kind of elements that
in fact create a historical layer.
That is preserved or could be preservedif we are careful and if we are aware of,
of, of its existence and its presence.
(32:08):
And Jorge, just going off on a tangent,there are certain places in Tokyo.
and many other Japanese cities wherecultural associations are well known.
So you might have a former villagethat has been absorbed into the greater
metropolitan area, but it was knownfor certain things or certain events.
(32:33):
And the Japanese, like the temple ofthe, I think the 47 Ronin or and, and
the Japanese very much still reverethose places, even though physically
nothing remains of the times when that.
when those events occurred.
Yeah.
Yeah, that's, that's right.
I, I, by the way, I, I livevery close to that temple.
(32:56):
So, yeah, I have beenthere a couple of times.
And yeah, that, that's right.
I mean, there is there is a way, Ithink Tokyo shows us a different concept
for preservation in which maybe thephysicality, it's not, it's maybe, Not
as important as more kind of abstractvalues, I would say, in, in traditions.
(33:20):
But I would say that this doesn'tmean that certain urban elements of
design are completely unimportant.
So I think that And I show it in thebook the beauty of, for example, Zaku
buildings is that in many cases theykeep, although they are commercial, like,
(33:41):
let's say 10 or 11 floors like, they arequite tall, but they preserve the original
size of the, of the land plot, right?
So the proportions are very close tothe proportions of Machiya or Nagaya.
These are traditional.
Typologies, architectural typologies,and they were like two, two
(34:03):
floors or like, kind of low rise.
And then they kind of grow, theygrew and they develop vertically.
But you have therelationship with the street.
You have the rhythm across the street.
You have the small scalethat allows for independent.
Businesses to flourish.
So I would say it is true that sometimesJapanese managed to preserve all those
(34:29):
elements without the physicality orthe kind of physicality that we have.
But I would also argue that the completedestruction of the kind of human scale
that is in fact Preserved in many ofthese neighborhoods, even after the war,
also kind of might in my opinion kind ofend up destroying those kind of precious
(34:54):
aspects of, of the community and, and, andsocial networks, et cetera, which everyone
agrees that these are important in Tokyo.
But I think that for example,when I see some redevelopments.
in which they try to preservethe community by creating
community room inside the tower.
(35:16):
I always explain to my colleaguesand, you know, in real estate I have
colleagues in different fields, includingreal estate, that it's not the same
to meet someone informally across,you know, when you, when you go for
shopping or you want to have a drink,this kind of informal Kind of encounters
(35:38):
are precisely what makes community.
And if you have a purpose and you haveto go to a particular room on floor,
I don't know, maybe for 25 25th floor.
and go there in order to you know,like conduct some social interaction.
It's not the same.
So it's, it's, it's morelike an organic thing.
(35:59):
So we need to make sure that those socialnetworks are supported by a human scale.
physicality that that is kindof supporting them instead of
kind of making them difficult.
Like, as I mentioned, I insist in,in this kind of tower in the park,
kind of Le Corbusier kind of style ofredevelopment that we are seeing now.
(36:24):
Well, hey, it would be amiss ofus not to talk to you briefly
just about zoning and planning.
And I really want to talk to you aboutthe next set of questions that we
have around compact living so happyfor you to keep this fairly short
from what I understand Japan zoninglaws are known to be fairly flexible.
How do you think this hasinfluenced the development of Tokyo?
(36:48):
That's very important.
It's very important aspect.
And by the way, I, I was interviewedalso by a A, B, C, the Australian
broadcaster, about this issue inrelation with housing affordability.
And I mean, basically, if I haveto summarize it, I would say that
zoning, there are basically onlytwo, two zones that are really.
(37:13):
One is the low rise single family areas.
These are the most residential areas.
But even in those areas,you are allowed to put small
business in inside your house.
So you can transform the first floor ofyour home or your, your parking space
or into a boutique, a bar, a cafe.
(37:35):
And in fact, this is the beauty ofthose areas when you look through a
area which is single family houses,but still you have like restaurants
and kind of offices and so on.
This is one of them.
And the other is the I wouldsay the heavy industry.
Because the light industry zonealso, there is such a zone, but
it's, you can build housing andalmost and commerce everywhere.
(38:00):
Right?
So, so basically I would say superflexible and and these allows I think
for this organic growth in this, Ithink is also one of the reasons why.
Although Tokyo is super expensive for us.
I mean, it's, it's not really a cheapcity, but in comparison with I don't
know, I don't know the case of Melbourneor Sydney, but I know in New York,
(38:23):
for example, London, in comparison,I think it's affordable, I would say.
So yeah, zoning is, is very flexibleand even the most residential.
Zoning allows for, for commerce.
Jorge, the compact living,because of the, the pressures of
(38:45):
population Tokyo is famous forits compact spaces, micro living.
How does that impact communityinteraction and urban design in the city?
And, and maybe even before you jumpinto that to paint a picture for our
listeners, what do we mean by micro whenwe're talking about micro apartments and
(39:06):
micro spaces, maybe you can provide somecontext as to what is meant by that.
Yeah, I mean well, micro is alwayslike a comparative thing, right?
So for example, in the case of barsI'm talking about places and the book
includes architectural drawings ofall these things, like drawings with
(39:28):
dimensions and, well, the dimensionsare in, in written, I think, in meters.
Yeah.
So for example you can have a bar.
That has only I don't know,maybe the footprint of 10
square meters, for example.
No.
Or, or even smaller.
And in the case of houses also youcan find very, very tiny houses.
(39:52):
The plots can be quite, quitesmall, I would say land plots
of even like 50 square meters.
Because there is no minimumland plot requirement.
Some districts are kind of,have some ordinances, I think
they are trying to do something.
But basically there are, thereis no limitation, so you can
(40:13):
find like really tiny plots.
And the houses are also quite compact.
The most common singleperson apartment has.
maybe 20 square meters,including a small kitchen small
toilet, including the bathroom.
So yeah, I think Japanese arevery good at, at making a compact
(40:33):
design in residential spaceand also in commercial space.
And I think how is it possible is becauseThe city is like a big living room.
So you don't need to have like so muchspace inside your home because the
city offers Like for example, so manyexcellent and cheap restaurants that
(40:54):
why should you you know Like spend timereally cooking at home and having like
a huge kitchen when you can just youknow Go out and in five minutes, or if
you take the train to go to a specificplace, maybe in 15 minutes you can go
to an amazing place amazing restaurant.
And the same for so many functions.
(41:15):
And this is something that is not only incontemporary Tokyo, but also traditionally
in Edo people lived in very small houses.
And sometimes they didn't evenhave like a proper kitchen.
And for example, there was aspecific business that was based
on selling rice cook, like warm.
Cooked rice.
(41:35):
I mean, like warm rice.
So you can imagine that even likerice, which is the most basic thing
was, let's say, externalized andyou could buy it from someone.
So I think this is a city in whichmany functions that are considered
domestic and we try to kind of fitin into our houses, you can find them
(41:57):
around or dispersed across the city.
It's not common, for example, to havehome parties and this is something
that I miss a little bit because I missmy, my home parties in Spain because
cities are, because like apartmentsare so tiny, but you have you can rent
places for a relatively cheap priceand you can have all kinds of services.
(42:21):
So I would say, yeah, like many domesticfunctions are kind of spread out
throughout the city and that is why.
Well, people can, can livein such a compact way.
And what about the, the parks andgardens in, in the city as well?
Are they are they generally welldispersed throughout the city?
Are they well utilized by residents?
(42:43):
Well, yeah, this is, this is a,a kind of controversial thing.
I mean, Tokyo has very nice parks,and I think every tourist will visit,
for example, Yoyogi Park, very closeto Shibuya, and many other parks.
But you know, there is a moment,there is a I think traditionally
there was a problem of lack of parks.
(43:04):
I think, like, manyneighborhoods need more parks.
This is something that people Kind ofbecame aware during the pandemic because
they needed to be around their housesand they discover like how poor their
neighborhoods, many of the neighborhoodswere in terms of parks and greenery.
So this is something that really,in my opinion needs to be done
(43:26):
more in a top down manner.
So when I say emergent is not TokyoTokyo's emergent development as
something positive doesn't mean that.
everything needs to be designed inan emergent way, in a bottom up way.
There are like basic infrastructureand railways, et cetera, that needs to
be To have like a, at least a certain,you know, level of centralized control,
(43:50):
I would say, and design and, and, andplanification or planned and planning.
And and I think parks is, is one of them.
And so in terms of park, I thinkthat we need more parks right now.
And also I'm really worriedbecause I, I'm seeing that more
and more parks are being also.
targeted for redevelopment.
(44:12):
We have a new system, new planning systemnow called something like Park PFI.
They call it Park PFI.
PFI meaning Privately Financed Initiative.
Basically, it means that they can rent.
For long periods big parts of thepark to a private company reduce the
(44:35):
dimension of the park and build a kindof usually they build some restaurant
or something something that canproduce profit for those companies.
And in many cases, those projects are.
Connected with cutting treesand reducing the tree canopy.
So I think, well, Tokyo is in aprocess now of, of cutting public
(44:59):
finance or, or public projects.
And the Tokyo government istrying to kind of reduce as much
as possible public expenses.
So I think yeah, I think there is someneed in this case for this particular
topic of trees and greenery to takesome action, in the sense of Eh,
(45:20):
not maybe eliminating, but kind ofrethinking this policy of expecting
private companies to keep trees inparts, eh, because we are seeing that
the opposite, the opposite phenomenon.
Well, hey, you, you mentioned twothings I wanna ask you quickly.
You mentioned the eddo.
(45:41):
When you're talking about Tokyo, about thehistorical, Edo used to be the name for
Tokyo and there was also the Edo period.
That's right?
Exactly.
And I stayed on one of my trips to Japan.
I stayed in a small apartment in Osaka.
And I've always wondered whetherthe Japanese micro apartments were
(46:04):
transferable to Western citiesas a, as part of the solution
to housing It's very expensivehousing and unaffordable housing.
What you said made me realizethat you, I think you referred
to the living room of Tokyo.
(46:25):
That is, people have a micro apartment,but the city spaces are the living room.
So in a way you've answered my question.
It would be very hard to replicate thatmicro housing in a lot of Western cities.
Do you, do you follow my train of thought?
Yeah, I agree.
(46:45):
I mean, I think it's we need to thinkof housing in a, in an urban context.
We cannot isolate that.
And of course, having a, a supertiny house in a place that doesn't
offer the level of Mobility andservices and amenities that TOC is
offering cannot be like just exported.
(47:07):
I think we need to kind ofconsider the whole environment.
That said, I also would say that Inmany high density areas, like, for
example, the core areas of Europeancities, like, for example, like
Barcelona, you know, or Madrid or Parisor, I don't know, Rome, for example.
(47:30):
I would say that we could learn maybe NewYork also, we could learn because we are
seeing that the households, the size ofthe households is decreasing, population
is aging, et cetera, families are smaller.
So I think it's worth considering orlearning from, from this approach,
Japanese approach not in all contexts.
(47:52):
I don't think it's a magical solution,but in some urban contexts, dense
with lots of services and lots ofamenities, I think it's possible.
And in cultural norms and design,how do the cultural values there,
such as the importance of harmonyand respect, for space influence the
(48:16):
design approach that you describe.
Well kind of in my book, I must say,I'm trying to de emphasize a little
bit the cultural aspect in the sense,not in the sense of culture as, I
mean, culture can mean, mean manythings, like for example traditions
(48:37):
and religion and, and many of suchaspects But I'm trying to de emphasize
a little bit because, precisely becauseI see like too much emphasis, right?
But doesn't mean that culturedoesn't count, of course.
I mean, for example, the acceptanceof Relatively tiny alleys and narrow
(48:58):
alleys we could trace it back tothe Edo period, you know, this Edo
period or Edo in which the, the, thecity was called Edo before Tokyo was,
was called Edo in the 19th century.
So we can see that commonerswere living in those areas.
So maybe some kind of culturalhabits have been inherited.
(49:20):
But I would say that it's not reallysomething that needs to be necessarily
only explained through culture.
I mean many of the patterns and kindof examples that I give in the book,
could be replicated, of course,with the necessary transformations
and adaptations in other places.
(49:41):
So, cultures changes.
They are always dynamic.
They are always changing.
And of course, we canchange our own culture.
I mean, European or Western culture.
And we can also develop.
such a love for detail and sucha love for, , you know, like
respect for the environment.
Well, Jorge, I
do apologize.
You did make that point before and Ifell into the trap of the, you know, the
(50:05):
exotic, the orientalization or something.
So I do apologize for that last question.
No problem.
No problem.
It's something that I try to emphasizea lot because Because it's one of my
personal fights here, because, youknow, the thing is that why is it so
strong, this, this idea is because theJapanese themselves, they often use it.
(50:31):
When they describe themselves, so forexample, I think like most Westerners or
Europeans would kind of fight against,you know, like being Categorized into you
know, how they are and in a simplifiedway everyone would say, you know, you
we are a dynamic Society you you are notlike always following the same behavior.
(50:53):
Come on.
We are not robots, you know butSomehow, the Japanese, when they,
when you mention things like this,they, , when I say Japanese, I not
say, I not mean like normal peopleon the street, but researchers.
They kind of continue with theseideas of how unique they are, how
(51:13):
exceptional, and so, it's a kindof, I would call, self orientalism.
And, you know, allthose cliches, you know.
And of course, we love it because we arein love, I mean, the Western world has
been in love with Japan since the 19th,since the 19th century, but we need to
differentiate that from the reality.
Hmm.
Well, very, very interesting comments.
(51:36):
Jorge, we now reached podcast ExtraCulture Corner, where we asked our
guest something that they've read,seen, watched, experienced, that
they can recommend to our listeners.
Do you have one or two for our listeners?
I would like to kind of recommendsomething which is, you know, like
(51:59):
more popular there are a couple of, ofshows on, on Netflix on Tokyo, so maybe
anyone can watch them in any country.
And I think they kind of show wellEven if someone cannot come to Japan
and, and visit the country, this iswhat I recommend, but you can have
like a taste of what I'm talking about.
(52:21):
One of them is or the, the firstone would be Midnight Diner.
Midnight Diner I think the subtitleis Tokyo Stories, something like that.
It's about one of these microbars that only operates.
You know from midnight and it's basicallya place where you can, I mean, it's,
it's, it's, it's, it's very kind of kindof everyday life kind of show because
(52:47):
it's just people coming to the barand telling their stories every day.
Chapter is different.
Every you know, story is different andanyone listen to everyone is listening to
each other and sometimes they are tragic.
Something is sad.
Something is happy and but you can feelreally through this show, through this
series, this feeling of third place, youknow, a place where they feel we one can
(53:10):
feel That belongs and is accepted beyondthe realm of the home and the workplace.
That's one of them.
I think it's quite, quite interesting.
And the other, I would say, isthat they're quite the opposite.
It's more showing the , this worldof the huge mega redevelopments
(53:31):
that are happening right now.
In Tokyo the world of the largecorporations changing Tokyo right
now, it's called Tokyo Swindlers.
Swindlers.
So it's about this a criminal gangthat is deceiving and cheating
on on real estate companies andkind of creating fake identities.
(53:57):
And it's a kind of kind of a stereotypicalthriller with violence and drugs and
sex, you know, all these elements.
But there are like very nice shots ofTokyo and it's based on real life events.
So for us who were in Japan, when welook at, or when we watch that show, we
(54:19):
see like, you know, how it resonates orkind of replicates some of the news that
we have been you know being exposed.
post about the scandals and, and how,you know, like real, the real estate
world is sometimes can be in a grayzone and can be victim easily of all
(54:39):
kinds of criminal gangs, preciselybecause of the incredible amount of
money that they are dealing with in how.
you know, easy is to, to attract, youknow, those kind of dubious characters.
It's a quite, it's fun.
I think it's, I recommend,and Tokyo is in both of them.
You can see like nice shots of Tokyo.
So I recommend both of them.
(55:00):
Wonderful recommendations, Jorge.
Jess, have you got recommendations?
Well, Pete, with the Australian Openconcluding only last night, it's
safe to say I have really got intothe tennis the last couple of weeks.
So I've picked up my racket a couple oftimes, which has been really nice and
I'm actually playing tomorrow night.
(55:22):
So wish me luck.
That's my recommendation.
Get, get back out on the court.
This
is the best news for a long time.
Yeah.
I think we need
to set up a game.
We will.
I will
definitely lose.
No, no,
no, no, no.
Jorge, I'm a tennis tragic.
So my recommendation isthe new books network.
(55:42):
It's a podcast series.
There is about 150.
50 different subjects inthe new books network.
And there is like a, on Japanese studies,there's architecture also any sort
of field you can think of, or Hawaii.
And, and they, in thispodcast series, every.
(56:04):
A couple of weeks, they interviewan author about their new book.
And I just find the authorstalking about their books a bit
like what you've done today.
Just incredibly inspiringand, and incredibly rewarding.
So I recommend that, but.
Yeah, I've been there.
I've been there.
I've been also interviewed.
(56:25):
Oh, you've been at your Yeah, yeah.
Well, well, here we go, Jess.
This is the quality of the programsthat Jorge has been on one.
Which one were you on?
Japanese Studies or Architecture?
Well, they, I think you, theythey have, like multiple choices.
So you can, I think I watchedArchitecture Urban Studies, and
even Public Policy, I think.
(56:47):
Yes.
So, so one episode might be onthe three different like channels.
Exactly.
Exactly.
And also I think theyhave Japanese studies too.
Yeah, they do.
They do.
I mean, I'm fascinated by newbooks in military history, Jess,
but don't tell anyone anyway.
So, so thank you so much for beinga wonderful guest and I urge all our
(57:10):
listeners, particularly those whoare thinking of going to Japan to
pick up a copy of emergent Tokyo,designing the spontaneous city.
Thank you so much.
Why it's been a real pleasurehaving you on the program.
And thanks again, Jess, as always.
And I look forward to the tennis match.
Thanks for listening.
If you would like to hear more of ourpodcasts, hit the follow button on Spotify
(57:33):
or the like button on SoundCloud orthe subscribe button in Apple podcasts.
Please also visit our Instagrampage, LinkedIn or website for behind
the scenes footage of our podcastsand to get the latest on upcoming
or recently released episodes.
If you have any suggestions orfeedback, please get in touch via
our social media channels or byemailing planningxchangeatgmail.
(57:56):
com.
This podcast is supported by VPLA.
Victorian PlanningEnvironmental Law Association.
Welcome to the Planning Exchangewhere we interview built environment
professionals who are doinginteresting work beyond the ordinary.
I'm Jess Noonan and I'm joinedby my colleague Peter Jewell.
Today we're speaking with JorgeAlmazán, a Spanish architect and
(00:21):
author based in Tokyo in Japan.
Jorge is an associate professorat Keio University and the founder
of StudioLab, an architecturallaboratory based at the university.
He also has his own independentarchitecture studio under the
name of Jorge Almazán Architects.
Tokyo is one of the most vibrantand livable cities on the
(00:41):
planet, a mega city that somehowremains intimate and adaptive.
Compared to Western metropolises likeNew York or Paris, however, few outsiders
understand Tokyo's inner workings.
For cities around the globe miredin crisis and seeking new models
for the future, Tokyo's success atbalancing between massive growth and
local communal life poses a challenge.
(01:04):
Can we design other cities toemulate its best qualities?
Jorge is the author of Emergent Tokyo,Designing the Spontaneous City, a
book that examines Tokyo's builtform through five core typologies.
The book characterizes Tokyo, oneof the world's largest cities, as
simultaneously intimate and livableas a result of its unique urban form.
(01:24):
Welcome to the show, Jorge.
Hello.
Thank you for having me.
Would you mind just giving our listenersan overview of your background and
experience and how you came to be?
Located in Tokyo.
Yeah, well, I'm, I'm a, an architectI studied I finished my, my studies
(01:44):
and I, I obtained the architecturallicense in, in Madrid, in Spain.
And as really many, many studentsI came with a scholarship from the
Japanese Ministry of Education to Japan.
At the beginning it was supposedto be a couple of years, but well,
I really you know, found a reallyfascinating opportunities here.
(02:09):
And well, I stayed and it hasbeen like 20 years already.
Jorge, can you tell our listeners aboutyour architectural practice in Tokyo?
What type of work do you do?
Okay.
Well although the office is based inTokyo basically within, you know, like
(02:29):
the core areas we do mostly commercialwork like interior renovations or,
or we have been doing also likekind of a couple of designs for,
more like residential also works.
But most, most of our work is in factoutside In the countryside and we
have done some renovations of woodentraditional houses, the so called akiya
(02:55):
akiya means in Japanese like vacanthouse or empty houses, and there's a
whole movement now to renovate them.
So we have been working in, in, inlike those two kind of realms, you
know, like the, the inner, more innerkind of very commercial, very fast
kind of work and more kind of lowpaced like work in the countryside.
(03:17):
And has your work.
Evolved quite a bit, I guess, overthe 20 years that you've been there.
Yeah, completely.
I mean, I, I was really I learned a lot.
I, I, I was lucky enough to workwith some architects, Japanese
architects that I really admired.
And I think I mean, coming from Spain,the most striking difference is how
(03:40):
architecture changes when you come froma, from a culture of stone and brick.
And to a culture of wood, right?
Wooden architecture.
Basically, in Spain, it's everything donewith this mentality of mortar, stone, etc.
But even, I mean, the whole production,the whole architecture is based on that.
(04:05):
And basically, in Japan,it's everything about wood.
So you don't work, you won't.
You work, you don't work with masons,you work with carpenters, really.
So I think this changes a lot, theconception of space, how you design.
And well, it also kind of allowsyou to understand many things about
(04:25):
cities, because for example, Tokyo,70 percent of Tokyo is made of wood.
This is something that people don't know.
They think of Tokyo as a huge mega city.
It is, but it's made of wood.
So this kind of, it helped mereally to understand also the, my,
my surroundings, the environmentin which I was working and living.
70 percent would never haveguessed it would be that high.
(04:49):
Well, you know it's, it's somethingthat you know, coming from Europe we're
always surprised, but maybe peoplecan understand it also in comparison
with the United States, right?
We saw these fires, right, inCalifornia, and we, We were surprised,
like, how easily, you know, thewhole areas of, I mean, huge areas,
big neighborhoods were affected.
(05:11):
And well, we have to understand thatthat it's this kind of tradition
of balloon frame construction.
And something very similaris happening also in Japan.
Of course, it's a completely differentbackground, but well, Tokyo is mainly Low
rise city made of single family housesand most of them are made of wood even
(05:31):
if you don't if they don't seem likewooden houses because they are kind of
Covered or with different materials.
But yes, I think this is an estimatethat I have Read in a couple of places
the 70 percent of Tokyo is wooden
amazing
(05:52):
Also the cultural information thatyou must gain and you must learn.
The Japanese have a very particularculture that would have been very
I don't know whether it was afast process or a quick process.
I imagine it was an extremely interestingprocess, learning a lot of cultural norms.
(06:12):
And applying themin, your work situation.
Well, definitely.
I mean, that's that's something thatit's is the first barrier, right?
Together with the, with the, with thelanguage, with the Japanese language.
And there is, I mean, I don'tthink it's easy because there
are like so many protocols thatone needs to learn and follow.
(06:33):
But at the same time, and Ithink this connects with the
book, once you live here.
You see that well, I think this,what I'm going to say is very
obvious and, but you see that theyare like kind of universal kind of
rules in human behavior, let's say.
And this, this cultural kind of Layersstart to disappear or dissolve after so
(06:58):
many years, so I don't feel anymore thatI'm in a kind of this exotic place, I
think I think it's it's every culturedevelop a series of protocols and a
series of written and unwritten rules andYou know, yeah, maybe Japan is a little
(07:18):
bit surprising from a Western Europeanviewpoint But it's not so much if you look
at it from a more East Asian viewpoint.
In that case, from that viewpoint,we are exotic and different, right?
So I think the cultural part, and Itried also in the book to a little bit
(07:40):
demystify a little bit some of theseapproaches that always emphasize culture
as the, the most important aspect.
I would say, you know, for me,it was much more difficult really
to navigate many other things.
Like for example, the legislation, forexample, it's, it's quite different
(08:00):
from the Spanish legislation.
And all those unwritten agreements,you know, that happen in the work
environment, which are of coursedifferent from European or the
European cultural agreements.
But yeah, I think culture issomething that's somehow disappears
once you start living here or in anycountry, I think for a long time.
(08:22):
We thank Victorian PlanningReports, our very first supporter.
If you want the A to Z of planningdecisions in Victoria and excellent
editorials, please get yourselfa subscription to the VPRs.
Details on our website.
It's a beautiful book.
I've got the book in front of me now.
It's a gorgeously presented book,beautiful illustrations, well set out.
(08:46):
But I wanted to ask you the bookorigins, what inspired you to write
the book about Tokyo's urban design?
And how does your book differfrom other studies of the city?
Yeah, well , I really needed to, tothere was really a necessity to, to
write this book because first of all,because most books about Tokyo are
(09:09):
quite old fashioned and the recentones are more like compilations of.
Chapters and like edited bookswith without a cohesive kind
of topic across the book.
So I think I needed toupdate a little bit.
And, and my main intention was alittle bit to kind of fight these,
(09:34):
let's say, cultural essentialistkind of viewpoint that most authors
use when they address Tokyo.
So, you know, for many authors, theytry to explain Tokyo, which is obviously
a very striking city and similarlydisorderly and messy trying to go through
(09:56):
cultural explanations, you know, like,for example trying to go into religion
trying to go into Shintoism, for example,and how in Shintoism everything is about
change and how you know, for example, IseJingu, this shrine, the most important
shrine in Japan, is rebuilt every 20years, and therefore, for Japanese is
(10:19):
normal and kind of self obvious thatarchitecture needs to be demolished,
continuously demolished and so on.
So I kind of found like so manycultural explanations and I was really
frustrated because in every article andevery book and every symposium that I
(10:42):
attended, I found the same Explanationsrepeated and I thought that it was
becoming more like a stereotype or acliche that nobody's really checking.
And me living here and actually working,I realized that you know it's not
about, not everything is about Zen orShintoism, etc. And not everything is
(11:03):
about this kind of mystery and exoticism.
It's more about Well, the sameas any other country it's about
institutional frameworks, legislation,sociology political struggle.
Japanese tend to sell themselves alittle bit like a harmonious society.
(11:25):
But once you live here,you see, that's not true.
I mean, they have struggles and,and of course, they politically,
they are like a different opinions.
And even in your, you know, any, anyworkplace, you know, you, you will see
the same kind of conflicts that yousee everywhere in any other country.
So I really needed to kind of lookat Tokyo in the same way anyone
(11:47):
would look at a European city orWestern city without those layers
of exoticism and essentialism.
And how would you describeTokyo's urban design philosophy?
What makes it unique compared toother global cities do you think?
Well first of all, the book starts byexplaining that there are many Tokyos.
(12:12):
So it's, you have to imagine thatthis is a city in which one, one
third of Japan, well a city, like,let's say like a, a metropolis, right?
A metropolitan region in one, inwhich one third of Japan is living.
So it's huge.
And there are like many kinds of Tokyo.
But so we start by classifyingusing data science, using the huge
(12:39):
amount of data now available throughthe Tokyo government's website.
And yeah, first of all, I wouldsay there are many kinds of Tokyo.
And the second point was like.
What is the most kind of uniquecharacter, which part or which
aspect could we emphasize inorder to learn from Tokyo, right?
(13:04):
In the same way we architects learnfrom Paris, we learn from New York.
They're like certain cities in the world.
that any architect and anyurbanist wants to visit.
And I, I wanted to put Tokyo also inthe same, at the same level, not only,
you know, this kind of exotic place.
So, from my viewpoint, what makesTokyo unique is its emergent character.
(13:29):
And that's why I callthe book Emergent Tokyo.
It means that yeah, it is true thatcompared with let's say Western
European cities the city looks, Tokyolooks Let's use this word chaotic or
messy, but in reality what is goingon is a different kind of order.
(13:51):
It's a different kind of order that it'smore like bottom up rather than top down.
And by This is preciselythe meaning of emergence.
Emergence is the creation of orderand functionality from the bottom up.
So I was trying to illustrate throughspecific case studies how these, I would
(14:14):
say maybe unwanted philosophy or, orunsign philosophy because at the end
it's not like in, to a large extent.
It's not like it's, itis a conscious decision.
But more like like a, like kindof a topic or, or kind of a common
framework through which we can startlooking at talking a different way.
(14:35):
Not anymore as.
as chaos, but as order.
Jorge,
I've been to Tokyo a number of timesand your, your observations about Tokyo
having many, many different Tokyos.
I mean, there's a lot of variation acrossthe different Areas, the different urban
(14:57):
areas of Tokyo, but there is they arestructured, even though at the ground
level, there is always a lot of lifeat ground level, but the network of the
city, the, the services required, thethe transport they all, all the community
centers, they, they all fit in, but.
(15:18):
I can understand why people think it'schaotic, but the Japanese are very
practical people from my experience.
But how you describe it, the bottomup approach to urbanism is fantastic.
Tell our readers about howyou've structured the book.
You've talked about very specifictopics in some of the chapters.
(15:41):
Can you talk how you structured thebook and what things you focused on?
Okay, well well, this idea of emergenceand top bottom up order sounds a little
bit abstract, in fact, it's an abstractconcept, but yeah, I wanted to give
specific examples, right, in order toreally substantiate and check that idea.
(16:03):
So the book is basically subdividedinto, into a number of chapters,
and that focus is on five.
What do I call urban patternsor regularities across Tokyo?
One is one of those regularitiesare the Yokocho alleyways.
Yokocho is like Kind of a bar district,tiny, really tiny micro bar district.
(16:28):
These are the Yokocho alleyways.
Then the second typology arethe Zakyo buildings, multi
tenant commercial buildings thatare called Zakyo in Japanese.
Then I focus on the under trackinfields architecture under elevated
highways and elevated railways.
And then I, I go to the ankyo streets.
(16:50):
Ankyo means in Japanese something likecovered river or cover, covered waterways.
There are many of these and surprisinglythey are quite fascinating too.
And the last pattern are is thedense low rise neighborhoods.
In this case I mentioned that mostof Tokyo is low rise, but I went to
(17:10):
the the most extreme cases in whichyou find the highest density and also
a kind of coherence in, the, in thecharacter of, in this low rise character.
So those are the, the five patternsand each pattern is again, like they're
illustrated through three cases studiesso that different types of of the same
(17:34):
pattern so that the reader can have likean organized framework in order to really
take the book and walk across Tokyo andsee how these top down orders actually
are happening there in front of theireyes or in front of the visitor's eyes.
(17:54):
Well, Jorge, I think you have writtena travel guide for urbanists and
architects with your your book.
I think any planners or urbanistsor Architects or developers who
want to learn about the, theseapproaches can, can use your book as
(18:15):
a guidebook to these different placesand the different examples you give.
Yeah.
Well, that, that was alittle bit the intention.
So it's a kind of It'sa, it's a hybrid book.
You know, I always admired thearchitectural manifestos , of
architects, right?
Like Le Corbusier and well,maybe the last one would be
like Kolha's Delirious New York.
(18:36):
And of course we have Jane Jacobs.
She was not an architect,but it's a kind of manifesto.
So I wanted to do that kind of.
Try to use the excuse off of analyzinga city in order to show a different
way to design our environment more.
This bottom up way.
And at the same time each Chapter or eachpattern is written in a narrative way.
(18:59):
So it's like a small story.
It's like a small, you know,narrative for each place.
And, you know, the book includesmany drawings, a map of Tokyo, so
that it's a kind of hybrid book.
You can use it in different ways.
Jorge, you speak to the conceptof spontaneous city design and
obviously the name of the booksort of reflects that as well.
(19:22):
Can you explain what that meansin practice and how that shapes.
Okay.
Well, there are like many waysand that's why I wanted to
cover like different cases.
So we have in the book we havebuildings, we have interiors we'll
have, if we go from the small scale,we have interiors, we have buildings.
(19:44):
Like the commercial Zaku buildings.
We have streets and at the end we haveneighborhoods So it's a little bit
structured in that way So that you cansee how this spontaneous design happens
or could happen across different scalesbut if I start with the most obvious
case, which is the Yokocho Alleyways.
(20:06):
I would say that the key in thatcase is the small scale, , the
possibility for individuals tocustomize their own environment.
So that at the end, thiskind of Spontaneous way.
It doesn't produce just, youknow, conflicts or, or chaos.
(20:28):
But as we can see in the case ofYokocho, it's, it creates a, a
positive and a, a kind of synergeticas a, a kind of emergent effect.
So Yokocho, for example, are, verytiny bars really, which maybe only
five or six people can persons can sit.
I mean, a scale I've neverseen in, in another country.
(20:51):
And they are clustered together, alongalleyways or sometimes in, in certain
districts, in, in forming a kind ofa a greet and, basically each, the
most characteristic kind of yokochowould be, if I give you an example,
would be a golden guy in Shinjuku.
But basically in all cases it's so tinyand it's so kind of intimate that it
(21:17):
allows the owner to paid for a very cheapprice and the owner can manage by itself.
So at the end, it's like supercustomized space and they cluster
together so that at the end you have.
something which is much morethan the sum of its parts.
When you go to Golden Gai, for example,you don't go to one single place, but
(21:39):
you kind of jump from one to the other.
You enjoy differentatmospheres, different people.
And at the end, you have somethingthat because of its scale, very
close to the human scale, right?
Or, or community scale can be managedby one person or by a small group
or a small community, something thatcan be managed , by the, you know,
(22:02):
this small kind of small entity.
But at the same time, by clusteringtogether, by Being together in a
relationship of competition, this iswhat I call it, it's a cooperation
and competition because, you know,those bars or those buildings,
they also compete with each other.
This relationship of competitionand cooperation creates a whole, an
(22:28):
emergent whole, that makes spontaneitywork as a positive force in the city
and not just as a source of conflicts.
Many, many topics community and socialnetworks Jorge, how do the design
(22:48):
principles that you describe in yourbook, how do they foster community
bonds and a sense of belonging?
Well, I think I would say that the,spaces , the places that have been
illustrating or analyzing in thebook are precisely those that are
fostering social networks and community.
(23:10):
I mean, I, I invite anyone whogoes to Tokyo to go to go on
one of these Yokocho places.
And yeah, that person just needs toenter and You know, order anything and
immediately that person will feel thathe or she is in a, is in a third place.
I, I like to use this concept ofRay Oldenburg this concept of some,
(23:35):
some community place informal publicspace, which is different from
the home and from the workplace.
And, and immediatelyhe will feel accepted.
talking about any kind of privatething, but you know, accepted by anyone.
And the same kind of effect happensin, in a larger scale, for example.
(23:56):
When we look, for example, at theneighborhoods the neighborhoods are
also based on alleyways, small spacesrelatively kind of community oriented
or or kind of shopping streets and thosespaces really contribute or kind of foster
social networks in, in a very, in verydifferent ways in the most obvious one
(24:21):
is because these are places in which.
People can see each other.
People are not in a openspace without character.
They, there is, they can becomeregulars of a bar or a specific shop.
They, it's a human, it's a human networkthat you know, it's quite lost, or you
(24:43):
can see by contrast how it is lost, lost.
In another kind of Tokyo, the Tokyo thattop down Tokyo created by, well, in the
60s and 70s by the, by the government andnow more by large corporations in which
you have like mega towers and shoppingmalls and that kind of human touch is
(25:03):
lost the human contact, the communication,everything becomes franchises.
And chain stores and you know this kindof responsibility or sense of belonging
to one particular place is lost.
So I think by contrast, it's kind of, youcan feel it even anyone I think that goes
(25:25):
to Tokyo and kind of compares betweentwo, two kinds of Tokyo, one more like
like redeveloped Tokyo and the otherwould be my more organic Tokyo, will feel
immediately it's kind of very, very easyto, to, to see the difference, I think.
And,
and how does Tokyo balance thehistorical architectural elements
(25:48):
that it has alongside, I guess,the really modern cutting edge
architecture that we're seeing?
Well, I think that's somethingwhich is it's, it's a kind
of a problem, I would say.
Most of the spaces that I describe,I think, I think most people would
not consider them historical ortraditional, because they are
(26:10):
basically post war developments.
So they are not really, I mean, froma European viewpoint, that would be
like, that's not history at all, right?
It's just like contemporary architecture.
So there is a, there is an issuehere because preservation and the
concept of heritage is not so strong.
In Japan also in Tokyo, of course,and I think we, we tend to use, have
(26:36):
these images of blending traditionalmodernity as maybe one of these
images that we have of Tokyo, probablybecause in many touristic brochures and
websites and so on We see the typicalphotograph of a temple or a shrine in the
foreground and some towers at the back.
(26:57):
But this is a very kind of selectedphoto taken from a specific place.
You don't see this.
In most of Tokyo, I think heritage or kindof the historical heritage is being lost.
Or has been lost for, for a great extent.
And even these kind of communityplaces, these organic neighborhoods
(27:18):
that I'm describing in the book,year after year, neighborhood after
neighborhood, are disappearing now.
And we are talking about not justdemolishing a couple of buildings.
We are talking about huge redevelopmentsgoing on precisely in the most historical
areas of Tokyo, precisely in those areasthat have most of the historical and
(27:43):
heritage part are being redeveloped.
And these are really big projects.
I'm talking about fivehectares or eight hectares.
I mean, it's, it's like, Idon't know, like 10 urban
blocks or eight urban blocks.
all demolished at the same time.
And so not even buildings.
(28:04):
I mean, the, the network,right, the, the street network
is also recomposed and redone.
So I would say blending traditionalmodernity is more like I would say Selling
point or a cliche rather than a reality.
And yeah, I think I hope that mybook, which is also translated into
(28:24):
Japanese, helps also to, to kind of youknow, increase the awareness about the
importance of, of layering differentparts of the city, not just demolishing
everything and putting somethingnew, but how beautiful a city is when
when, when you can feel that thereare different historical layers and
the city can still grow and, and, and,and kind of still develop, but without
(28:48):
erasuring everything from the past.
Jorge, I mean, there was a greatearthquake, I think in 1923
in Tokyo, which obliteratedmost of the, much of the city.
And of course, many, many Japanesecities were firebombed and
destroyed in the Second World War.
So as you say, a lot of heritageand also a lot of the buildings
(29:13):
were wooden, as you say.
So I agree, I understand entirely whatyou're saying that the images that a lot
of people have of Japan are not accurate.
Yeah, I mean, it's it's, it's,it's something that yeah, usually
there are like two, two momentsof total destruction in Tokyo.
(29:35):
One is the, the earthquake that youmentioned, but as you, as you mentioned,
it was rather than the earthquakein itself, it was the, the fires.
That followed the earthquake and thesecond one is the, the bombing during the,
during the second world war the alliedbombing of Tokyo, which is not so maybe
(29:55):
known, but it's, it's also comparableto, to the damage created by, by the
of course, the more, more famous atomicbombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
So those are two moments in whichreally like most of Tokyo was not
everything, not every, every place,but a huge amount of Tokyo disappeared.
(30:17):
And that's why many authors and manyresearchers are kind of focusing more
on let's say, a different way to look atheritage and, and historical character,
not anymore Based on buildings, whichsince they are made of wood, they kind of
(30:37):
disappear very easily, but a more focusedon He natural elements like rivers and
topography and natural areas and alsocommunity how different Places managed
to preserve a certain community characterand certain social interactions, even
(31:01):
if they were completely destroyed twice.
And the beauty of Tokyo is that even if wedon't see traditional buildings anymore.
Once we start living here andsee you know, how people interact
and how they care of each other.
They take care of each other andthis community kind of linkages.
(31:23):
You see that in reality there is acontinuity there with the tradition.
And this is maybe a different wayto frame preservation in a culture
of wood different from a kind ofstone culture in which buildings
themselves change or can be demolished.
(31:45):
But there are other things likethe scale the community, the
topographical relationships, therivers and these kind of elements that
in fact create a historical layer.
That is preserved or could be preservedif we are careful and if we are aware of,
of, of its existence and its presence.
(32:08):
And Jorge, just going off on a tangent,there are certain places in Tokyo.
and many other Japanese cities wherecultural associations are well known.
So you might have a former villagethat has been absorbed into the greater
metropolitan area, but it was knownfor certain things or certain events.
(32:33):
And the Japanese, like the temple ofthe, I think the 47 Ronin or and, and
the Japanese very much still reverethose places, even though physically
nothing remains of the times when that.
when those events occurred.
Yeah.
Yeah, that's, that's right.
I, I, by the way, I, I livevery close to that temple.
(32:56):
So, yeah, I have beenthere a couple of times.
And yeah, that, that's right.
I mean, there is there is a way, Ithink Tokyo shows us a different concept
for preservation in which maybe thephysicality, it's not, it's maybe, Not
as important as more kind of abstractvalues, I would say, in, in traditions.
(33:20):
But I would say that this doesn'tmean that certain urban elements of
design are completely unimportant.
So I think that And I show it in thebook the beauty of, for example, Zaku
buildings is that in many cases theykeep, although they are commercial, like,
(33:41):
let's say 10 or 11 floors like, they arequite tall, but they preserve the original
size of the, of the land plot, right?
So the proportions are very close tothe proportions of Machiya or Nagaya.
These are traditional.
Typologies, architectural typologies,and they were like two, two
(34:03):
floors or like, kind of low rise.
And then they kind of grow, theygrew and they develop vertically.
But you have therelationship with the street.
You have the rhythm across the street.
You have the small scalethat allows for independent.
Businesses to flourish.
So I would say it is true that sometimesJapanese managed to preserve all those
(34:29):
elements without the physicality orthe kind of physicality that we have.
But I would also argue that the completedestruction of the kind of human scale
that is in fact Preserved in many ofthese neighborhoods, even after the war,
also kind of might in my opinion kind ofend up destroying those kind of precious
(34:54):
aspects of, of the community and, and, andsocial networks, et cetera, which everyone
agrees that these are important in Tokyo.
But I think that for example,when I see some redevelopments.
in which they try to preservethe community by creating
community room inside the tower.
(35:16):
I always explain to my colleaguesand, you know, in real estate I have
colleagues in different fields, includingreal estate, that it's not the same
to meet someone informally across,you know, when you, when you go for
shopping or you want to have a drink,this kind of informal Kind of encounters
(35:38):
are precisely what makes community.
And if you have a purpose and you haveto go to a particular room on floor,
I don't know, maybe for 25 25th floor.
and go there in order to you know,like conduct some social interaction.
It's not the same.
So it's, it's, it's morelike an organic thing.
(35:59):
So we need to make sure that those socialnetworks are supported by a human scale.
physicality that that is kindof supporting them instead of
kind of making them difficult.
Like, as I mentioned, I insist in,in this kind of tower in the park,
kind of Le Corbusier kind of style ofredevelopment that we are seeing now.
(36:24):
Well, hey, it would be amiss ofus not to talk to you briefly
just about zoning and planning.
And I really want to talk to you aboutthe next set of questions that we
have around compact living so happyfor you to keep this fairly short
from what I understand Japan zoninglaws are known to be fairly flexible.
How do you think this hasinfluenced the development of Tokyo?
(36:48):
That's very important.
It's very important aspect.
And by the way, I, I was interviewedalso by a A, B, C, the Australian
broadcaster, about this issue inrelation with housing affordability.
And I mean, basically, if I haveto summarize it, I would say that
zoning, there are basically onlytwo, two zones that are really.
(37:13):
One is the low rise single family areas.
These are the most residential areas.
But even in those areas,you are allowed to put small
business in inside your house.
So you can transform the first floor ofyour home or your, your parking space
or into a boutique, a bar, a cafe.
(37:35):
And in fact, this is the beauty ofthose areas when you look through a
area which is single family houses,but still you have like restaurants
and kind of offices and so on.
This is one of them.
And the other is the I wouldsay the heavy industry.
Because the light industry zonealso, there is such a zone, but
it's, you can build housing andalmost and commerce everywhere.
(38:00):
Right?
So, so basically I would say superflexible and and these allows I think
for this organic growth in this, Ithink is also one of the reasons why.
Although Tokyo is super expensive for us.
I mean, it's, it's not really a cheapcity, but in comparison with I don't
know, I don't know the case of Melbourneor Sydney, but I know in New York,
(38:23):
for example, London, in comparison,I think it's affordable, I would say.
So yeah, zoning is, is very flexibleand even the most residential.
Zoning allows for, for commerce.
Jorge, the compact living,because of the, the pressures of
(38:45):
population Tokyo is famous forits compact spaces, micro living.
How does that impact communityinteraction and urban design in the city?
And, and maybe even before you jumpinto that to paint a picture for our
listeners, what do we mean by micro whenwe're talking about micro apartments and
(39:06):
micro spaces, maybe you can provide somecontext as to what is meant by that.
Yeah, I mean well, micro is alwayslike a comparative thing, right?
So for example, in the case of barsI'm talking about places and the book
includes architectural drawings ofall these things, like drawings with
(39:28):
dimensions and, well, the dimensionsare in, in written, I think, in meters.
Yeah.
So for example you can have a bar.
That has only I don't know,maybe the footprint of 10
square meters, for example.
No.
Or, or even smaller.
And in the case of houses also youcan find very, very tiny houses.
(39:52):
The plots can be quite, quitesmall, I would say land plots
of even like 50 square meters.
Because there is no minimumland plot requirement.
Some districts are kind of,have some ordinances, I think
they are trying to do something.
But basically there are, thereis no limitation, so you can
(40:13):
find like really tiny plots.
And the houses are also quite compact.
The most common singleperson apartment has.
maybe 20 square meters,including a small kitchen small
toilet, including the bathroom.
So yeah, I think Japanese arevery good at, at making a compact
(40:33):
design in residential spaceand also in commercial space.
And I think how is it possible is becauseThe city is like a big living room.
So you don't need to have like so muchspace inside your home because the
city offers Like for example, so manyexcellent and cheap restaurants that
(40:54):
why should you you know Like spend timereally cooking at home and having like
a huge kitchen when you can just youknow Go out and in five minutes, or if
you take the train to go to a specificplace, maybe in 15 minutes you can go
to an amazing place amazing restaurant.
And the same for so many functions.
(41:15):
And this is something that is not only incontemporary Tokyo, but also traditionally
in Edo people lived in very small houses.
And sometimes they didn't evenhave like a proper kitchen.
And for example, there was aspecific business that was based
on selling rice cook, like warm.
Cooked rice.
(41:35):
I mean, like warm rice.
So you can imagine that even likerice, which is the most basic thing
was, let's say, externalized andyou could buy it from someone.
So I think this is a city in whichmany functions that are considered
domestic and we try to kind of fitin into our houses, you can find them
(41:57):
around or dispersed across the city.
It's not common, for example, to havehome parties and this is something
that I miss a little bit because I missmy, my home parties in Spain because
cities are, because like apartmentsare so tiny, but you have you can rent
places for a relatively cheap priceand you can have all kinds of services.
(42:21):
So I would say, yeah, like many domesticfunctions are kind of spread out
throughout the city and that is why.
Well, people can, can livein such a compact way.
And what about the, the parks andgardens in, in the city as well?
Are they are they generally welldispersed throughout the city?
Are they well utilized by residents?
(42:43):
Well, yeah, this is, this is a,a kind of controversial thing.
I mean, Tokyo has very nice parks,and I think every tourist will visit,
for example, Yoyogi Park, very closeto Shibuya, and many other parks.
But you know, there is a moment,there is a I think traditionally
there was a problem of lack of parks.
(43:04):
I think, like, manyneighborhoods need more parks.
This is something that people Kind ofbecame aware during the pandemic because
they needed to be around their housesand they discover like how poor their
neighborhoods, many of the neighborhoodswere in terms of parks and greenery.
So this is something that really,in my opinion needs to be done
(43:26):
more in a top down manner.
So when I say emergent is not TokyoTokyo's emergent development as
something positive doesn't mean that.
everything needs to be designed inan emergent way, in a bottom up way.
There are like basic infrastructureand railways, et cetera, that needs to
be To have like a, at least a certain,you know, level of centralized control,
(43:50):
I would say, and design and, and, andplanification or planned and planning.
And and I think parks is, is one of them.
And so in terms of park, I thinkthat we need more parks right now.
And also I'm really worriedbecause I, I'm seeing that more
and more parks are being also.
targeted for redevelopment.
(44:12):
We have a new system, new planning systemnow called something like Park PFI.
They call it Park PFI.
PFI meaning Privately Financed Initiative.
Basically, it means that they can rent.
For long periods big parts of thepark to a private company reduce the
(44:35):
dimension of the park and build a kindof usually they build some restaurant
or something something that canproduce profit for those companies.
And in many cases, those projects are.
Connected with cutting treesand reducing the tree canopy.
So I think, well, Tokyo is in aprocess now of, of cutting public
(44:59):
finance or, or public projects.
And the Tokyo government istrying to kind of reduce as much
as possible public expenses.
So I think yeah, I think there is someneed in this case for this particular
topic of trees and greenery to takesome action, in the sense of Eh,
(45:20):
not maybe eliminating, but kind ofrethinking this policy of expecting
private companies to keep trees inparts, eh, because we are seeing that
the opposite, the opposite phenomenon.
Well, hey, you, you mentioned twothings I wanna ask you quickly.
You mentioned the eddo.
(45:41):
When you're talking about Tokyo, about thehistorical, Edo used to be the name for
Tokyo and there was also the Edo period.
That's right?
Exactly.
And I stayed on one of my trips to Japan.
I stayed in a small apartment in Osaka.
And I've always wondered whetherthe Japanese micro apartments were
(46:04):
transferable to Western citiesas a, as part of the solution
to housing It's very expensivehousing and unaffordable housing.
What you said made me realizethat you, I think you referred
to the living room of Tokyo.
(46:25):
That is, people have a micro apartment,but the city spaces are the living room.
So in a way you've answered my question.
It would be very hard to replicate thatmicro housing in a lot of Western cities.
Do you, do you follow my train of thought?
Yeah, I agree.
(46:45):
I mean, I think it's we need to thinkof housing in a, in an urban context.
We cannot isolate that.
And of course, having a, a supertiny house in a place that doesn't
offer the level of Mobility andservices and amenities that TOC is
offering cannot be like just exported.
(47:07):
I think we need to kind ofconsider the whole environment.
That said, I also would say that Inmany high density areas, like, for
example, the core areas of Europeancities, like, for example, like
Barcelona, you know, or Madrid or Parisor, I don't know, Rome, for example.
(47:30):
I would say that we could learn maybe NewYork also, we could learn because we are
seeing that the households, the size ofthe households is decreasing, population
is aging, et cetera, families are smaller.
So I think it's worth considering orlearning from, from this approach,
Japanese approach not in all contexts.
(47:52):
I don't think it's a magical solution,but in some urban contexts, dense
with lots of services and lots ofamenities, I think it's possible.
And in cultural norms and design,how do the cultural values there,
such as the importance of harmonyand respect, for space influence the
(48:16):
design approach that you describe.
Well kind of in my book, I must say,I'm trying to de emphasize a little
bit the cultural aspect in the sense,not in the sense of culture as, I
mean, culture can mean, mean manythings, like for example traditions
(48:37):
and religion and, and many of suchaspects But I'm trying to de emphasize
a little bit because, precisely becauseI see like too much emphasis, right?
But doesn't mean that culturedoesn't count, of course.
I mean, for example, the acceptanceof Relatively tiny alleys and narrow
(48:58):
alleys we could trace it back tothe Edo period, you know, this Edo
period or Edo in which the, the, thecity was called Edo before Tokyo was,
was called Edo in the 19th century.
So we can see that commonerswere living in those areas.
So maybe some kind of culturalhabits have been inherited.
(49:20):
But I would say that it's not reallysomething that needs to be necessarily
only explained through culture.
I mean many of the patterns and kindof examples that I give in the book,
could be replicated, of course,with the necessary transformations
and adaptations in other places.
(49:41):
So, cultures changes.
They are always dynamic.
They are always changing.
And of course, we canchange our own culture.
I mean, European or Western culture.
And we can also develop.
such a love for detail and sucha love for, , you know, like
respect for the environment.
Well, Jorge, I
do apologize.
You did make that point before and Ifell into the trap of the, you know, the
(50:05):
exotic, the orientalization or something.
So I do apologize for that last question.
No problem.
No problem.
It's something that I try to emphasizea lot because Because it's one of my
personal fights here, because, youknow, the thing is that why is it so
strong, this, this idea is because theJapanese themselves, they often use it.
(50:31):
When they describe themselves, so forexample, I think like most Westerners or
Europeans would kind of fight against,you know, like being Categorized into you
know, how they are and in a simplifiedway everyone would say, you know, you
we are a dynamic Society you you are notlike always following the same behavior.
(50:53):
Come on.
We are not robots, you know butSomehow, the Japanese, when they,
when you mention things like this,they, , when I say Japanese, I not
say, I not mean like normal peopleon the street, but researchers.
They kind of continue with theseideas of how unique they are, how
(51:13):
exceptional, and so, it's a kindof, I would call, self orientalism.
And, you know, allthose cliches, you know.
And of course, we love it because we arein love, I mean, the Western world has
been in love with Japan since the 19th,since the 19th century, but we need to
differentiate that from the reality.
Hmm.
Well, very, very interesting comments.
(51:36):
Jorge, we now reached podcast ExtraCulture Corner, where we asked our
guest something that they've read,seen, watched, experienced, that
they can recommend to our listeners.
Do you have one or two for our listeners?
I would like to kind of recommendsomething which is, you know, like
(51:59):
more popular there are a couple of, ofshows on, on Netflix on Tokyo, so maybe
anyone can watch them in any country.
And I think they kind of show wellEven if someone cannot come to Japan
and, and visit the country, this iswhat I recommend, but you can have
like a taste of what I'm talking about.
(52:21):
One of them is or the, the firstone would be Midnight Diner.
Midnight Diner I think the subtitleis Tokyo Stories, something like that.
It's about one of these microbars that only operates.
You know from midnight and it's basicallya place where you can, I mean, it's,
it's, it's, it's, it's very kind of kindof everyday life kind of show because
(52:47):
it's just people coming to the barand telling their stories every day.
Chapter is different.
Every you know, story is different andanyone listen to everyone is listening to
each other and sometimes they are tragic.
Something is sad.
Something is happy and but you can feelreally through this show, through this
series, this feeling of third place, youknow, a place where they feel we one can
(53:10):
feel That belongs and is accepted beyondthe realm of the home and the workplace.
That's one of them.
I think it's quite, quite interesting.
And the other, I would say, isthat they're quite the opposite.
It's more showing the , this worldof the huge mega redevelopments
(53:31):
that are happening right now.
In Tokyo the world of the largecorporations changing Tokyo right
now, it's called Tokyo Swindlers.
Swindlers.
So it's about this a criminal gangthat is deceiving and cheating
on on real estate companies andkind of creating fake identities.
(53:57):
And it's a kind of kind of a stereotypicalthriller with violence and drugs and
sex, you know, all these elements.
But there are like very nice shots ofTokyo and it's based on real life events.
So for us who were in Japan, when welook at, or when we watch that show, we
(54:19):
see like, you know, how it resonates orkind of replicates some of the news that
we have been you know being exposed.
post about the scandals and, and how,you know, like real, the real estate
world is sometimes can be in a grayzone and can be victim easily of all
(54:39):
kinds of criminal gangs, preciselybecause of the incredible amount of
money that they are dealing with in how.
you know, easy is to, to attract, youknow, those kind of dubious characters.
It's a quite, it's fun.
I think it's, I recommend,and Tokyo is in both of them.
You can see like nice shots of Tokyo.
So I recommend both of them.
(55:00):
Wonderful recommendations, Jorge.
Jess, have you got recommendations?
Well, Pete, with the Australian Openconcluding only last night, it's
safe to say I have really got intothe tennis the last couple of weeks.
So I've picked up my racket a couple oftimes, which has been really nice and
I'm actually playing tomorrow night.
(55:22):
So wish me luck.
That's my recommendation.
Get, get back out on the court.
This
is the best news for a long time.
Yeah.
I think we need
to set up a game.
We will.
I will
definitely lose.
No, no,
no, no, no.
Jorge, I'm a tennis tragic.
So my recommendation isthe new books network.
(55:42):
It's a podcast series.
There is about 150.
50 different subjects inthe new books network.
And there is like a, on Japanese studies,there's architecture also any sort
of field you can think of, or Hawaii.
And, and they, in thispodcast series, every.
(56:04):
A couple of weeks, they interviewan author about their new book.
And I just find the authorstalking about their books a bit
like what you've done today.
Just incredibly inspiringand, and incredibly rewarding.
So I recommend that, but.
Yeah, I've been there.
I've been there.
I've been also interviewed.
(56:25):
Oh, you've been at your Yeah, yeah.
Well, well, here we go, Jess.
This is the quality of the programsthat Jorge has been on one.
Which one were you on?
Japanese Studies or Architecture?
Well, they, I think you, theythey have, like multiple choices.
So you can, I think I watchedArchitecture Urban Studies, and
even Public Policy, I think.
(56:47):
Yes.
So, so one episode might be onthe three different like channels.
Exactly.
Exactly.
And also I think theyhave Japanese studies too.
Yeah, they do.
They do.
I mean, I'm fascinated by newbooks in military history, Jess,
but don't tell anyone anyway.
So, so thank you so much for beinga wonderful guest and I urge all our
(57:10):
listeners, particularly those whoare thinking of going to Japan to
pick up a copy of emergent Tokyo,designing the spontaneous city.
Thank you so much.
Why it's been a real pleasurehaving you on the program.
And thanks again, Jess, as always.
And I look forward to the tennis match.
Thanks for listening.
If you would like to hear more of ourpodcasts, hit the follow button on Spotify
(57:33):
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(57:56):
com.
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