June 26, 2025 • 53 mins
In this episode of PlanningXchange, we speak with Scott Matheson, Head of Planning at MyLot, an Australian AI technology company focused on simplifying the planning process for councils and communities. With a background in statutory planning across local government, consultancies, and the Victorian Department of Transport and Planning, Scott brings both practical experience and a forward-thinking approach to the role of technology in urban planning.
We explore Scott’s journey from traditional regulatory planning into the dynamic world of AI, discussing how MyLot is transforming development assessments with automated tools and data-driven insights. Scott shares examples of how AI can enhance transparency, reduce processing times, and better engage citizens—while still respecting the role of professional judgment and community context.
We also discuss the broader implications of AI on the planning profession, potential ethical concerns, broader strategic analysis, impacts on employment and how planners can position themselves to work with emerging technologies rather than against them.In Culture Corner / Podcast Extra, Scott shares a light-hearted story about using AI to open up relationship discussions.
Jess recommends the Netflix documentary Titan: The OceanGate Submersible Disaster, which examines the events leading up to the 2023 implosion of the Titan submersible during a deep-sea expedition to the Titanic wreck site. https://www.netflix.com/au/title/81712178
Pete recommends investing in a pair of Stihl chainsaw chaps for serious chainsaw safety.https://shop.stihl.com.au/function-core-270-chaps
Podcast released 26 June 2025
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
This podcast is supported by VPLA.
Victorian PlanningEnvironmental Law Association.
Welcome to the Planning Exchangewhere we interview built environment
professionals who are doinginteresting work beyond the ordinary.
I'm Jess Noonan and I'm joinedby my colleague Peter Jewell.
Today we're speaking with Scott Matheson.
Scott is the head of planning atMylo, an Australian AI tech company,
(00:23):
simplifying the property planning processfor councils and their communities.
Formerly a statutory planning coordinatorat Bayside City Council here in Victoria.
Scott has LED planning for councils,consultancies, and at the Victorian
Department of Transport and Planning.
Welcome to the show, Scott.
Thanks very much Jess.
Great to be here.
(00:43):
Now, how on earth haveyou got into planning?
How have you then transitioned into ai?
It's a big question and I really,I call myself a regulatory planner
by trade, and I really enjoy thedirtiness and the detail and how
personal, what we call here in Victoria.
Statutory planning is, that's likedoing assessments and approvals
(01:06):
of new land uses and developmentseverywhere throughout the state.
It's really frontlineplanning work, I grew up in.
Remote Northwestern Victoria in a smalltown with a couple of hundred people
where really town planning is thefurthest thing from those residents mines.
But my father in that town was aregulator of pest plants and animals
(01:29):
for the Victorian state government, andhe was involved in a range of really
interesting regulatory projects for megrowing up, including the foundational
study into Little Penguin Habitatson Philip Island here in Victoria.
So that work eventually in time ledto the most significant land buyback
(01:49):
from the Victorian state governmentin our state's history, where the old
residential estate on Phillip Island hasbeen reclaimed as little penguin habitat.
Although town planning was far frommy mind, I learned about the power and
influence of regulations early in life.
Then I lived overseas for 10years and then shifted back to
(02:11):
Australia and had always been reallyfascinated by how humans create
the environments in which we live.
And I was ready at thatstage for a career change.
Had a decent academic recordfrom my time in the United
States and Melbourne University.
I dunno why, but they took a chanceon a mature age master's student,
(02:33):
which is actually a funny story.
So I decided on a Friday that planningwas the right thing for me to study, but
I had missed the, midyear applicationcutoff, so I made personal phone
calls to a few Victorian universities.
Melbourne University is quite aprestigious institution here in Victoria.
(02:54):
Especially for a humble lad from RegionalVictoria and Melbourne Uni was my third.
And, perhaps, biggest shot in thedark phone call after the first
two universities had just saidflat, no, look mate, you need
to be a lot more organized, but.
Coincidentally, I called MelbourneUni on Friday afternoon, submitted my
application on the Monday, and on thefollowing Thursday, three days later, I
(03:17):
was sitting in an orientation class andit's really amazing to look back on it
now, how quickly everything came together.
Given that would shape the next10, 20, 30 years of my life.
So I did some lecturing and tutoringat Melbourne Uni to make ends meet
and felt like a little bit of afraud teaching undergrad students,
about planning and never havingbeen on the tools in that space.
(03:39):
So about 10 years ago, I commenced theworld in planning and away we went.
Scott, imposter syndrome is,something that many people, encounter.
I do all the time and Jess.
Scott's from Rainbow, which is a placeI know well because I managed the town
planning for the Shire that rainbow's in.
(04:00):
And Scott, when I was a student, whenI was at secondary school, we went
up to Rainbow to study it becauseof the declining population, because
it's all a big wheat area and allthe towns are shrinking and so it
is quite famous in planning circles,were you aware of all those studies?
Certainly wasn't aware of rainbow'sfame growing up, Peter, but I can think
(04:24):
back to where I grew up right on theedge of rainbow and, looking out over
intermittently, either a sheep field or awheat field, depending on what the local
farmers thought was the best solution.
And, certainly the townshipitself has been adapting.
Relatively well to what's calledacross the world, rural decline.
(04:45):
So there was a really strong committee,like a township committee where.
They attract events, I think it's calledthe Rainbow Rises Dirt Rally or something
that occurs there every 12 months or so.
They've repurposed the old primaryschool and turned it into what's
called the Rainbow oasis, where it'sa community hub and things like that.
(05:06):
So to the town's crediting Rainbow,the locals have really mucked in and
developed a really strong sense ofwhat it is to live in Rainbow and
be a part of the local community.
The locals might, dispute theircharacterization that it's a famous place.
Not famous, but it's a wonderfulplace and lots of really.
High quality community groups, buthow do you think coming from a small
(05:29):
place like that has shaped your careerand how you relate to other people.
Yeah, that's a really great question and Ithink it's difficult to explain to people
who've grown up in cities, but you becomeso much more important as an individual
growing up in small communities.
And I was really fortunate Peter to.
(05:50):
Graduate high school from what wascalled Rainbow Secondary College,
and there was about 10 to 12students that graduated in my class.
And so you get an opportunityto be immersed in all different
aspects of school and township life.
In my last year I was, student councilpresident, leader of the sports team,
(06:10):
got involved in the local productionof stage shows and things like that.
And the reality is in small towns that ifyou don't take on those roles, then many
of those activities simply don't happen.
So it's really important to just muck inand as we call in Australia, have a crack.
Because if you don't havea go at things, then.
(06:31):
Things may never go ahead, and that'sbeen really valuable for me traveling,
throughout the world, but also taking intomy planning career over time to say that.
To muck in and have a go atsomething really is the first
step to making something happen.
Whether that's a vision, whetherthat's making a difficult phone
call, whether that's fronting, anangry community meeting and planning.
(06:54):
There's all of these differentthings where we really do have
to apply the principle of havinga crack, having a go at things.
And I think that's really helpedme with my frame, as a planner.
I think I'd almost go so far to say aswell though, that people that grow up
in the country, particularly in ruralareas, probably do have a little bit
more confidence in their abilities forthat exact reason because you're forced
(07:17):
to be, as you say, courageous and totake those opportunities, perhaps more
so than people coming from the city.
I don't know.
Do you agree, Pete?
You're from Geelong.
Originally,
I didn't grow up in the, I grew up in aregional town, but I believe that, you're
onto something there, Jess, that peoplewho grow up in the country are, from my
experience, much more polite and muchmore respectful because when you're in
(07:40):
a smaller community, naturally there'sall this sort of osmosis around you.
That you are much more protective ofyour community and much more aware of.
you have a lot more social mix.
You have a lot more mixwith people with frailties.
So I think you are generally a betterperson, but what do you think, Jess?
(08:01):
I grew up in the country, soI'm gonna take that as a Yes.
You're a wonderful person, Jess.
Now back to the planning podcast.
Scott, what inspired you totransition from working at
Bayside City Council, which is afair size, metropolitan council.
In Melbourne by the Bay listeners, to joina company focused on AI and town planning.
(08:23):
it's a good question, Peter, and Isuppose Jess outlined it earlier in the
introduction, but I've done a little bitof everything since becoming a planner.
There's been some consulting workand working for the Victorian state
government, but the truth is my realpassion is in local government planning.
So I loved being at Bayside, right at theintersection of down and dirty planning
(08:47):
rules, the local community and alsothat drive to deliver better approvals,
processes, keep delivering more housing,and start to meet that housing shortage.
And some of your guests have talked aboutit in the past, but the skill and art.
In the job of regulatory planningreally is weighed down by the
(09:08):
burden of administrative tasksand the focus on process rather
than pushing towards outcomes.
I agree with those perspectives, andthere's a real disconnect between
regulatory planners who focus onthose administrative tasks and
their process and the realitieswithin which those approvals sit.
(09:28):
Regulatory planners, speak a differentway, and they often have to take
time to learn how to or relearnhow to speak to the community.
And on the other hand, communitiesmay feel that regulatory planners
aren't out on the ground and don'treally understand the realities of
what's happening in their communities.
Although I love the role, love theservice that the local government gives,
(09:52):
I found myself wedged between lettingpeople down often and not being able to
do things as effectively as I wanted.
Really being drawn away fromthe art of regulatory planning,
So it continued to upset me.
And meanwhile, I had the opportunityto join my lot it's a really small
firm doing some agile and reallydynamic work in that space, but also
(10:17):
whose mission really aligned with thethings that I look at, which is making,
planning more accessible, answeringquestions in simple and plain language.
And I spoke to a couple of the.
Founders of that company andreally enjoyed their vision.
And I'm sure I'll say this throughouttoday, AI is far from a silver bullet
for all of the problems in planning,but it really can help, or at least
(10:40):
I feel that it really can help.
And the rest was history.
I bought into the vision and have reallybeen enjoying my time with my life
so Scott, I guess one of the otherthings I'm interested in, you talk about
the efficiencies that AI can have, inplanning processes was I guess part
of the, particularly your experienceworking at Bayside and at state
(11:02):
government was part of the inspiration,I guess around joining an AI firm.
Partly to do with, declining townplanner numbers, particularly
in Victoria, but I know that'sa common story across Australia.
Do you see ai, helping fill a bitof a gap there in terms of the
numbers of planners that we have?
(11:24):
Yeah, because that doesn't seem
to be improving anytime soon.
Hugely, Jess and I think the.
The front end of that happens in thecontext of university programs, closing
down planning courses throughoutAustralia, which is really hard to hear
about, particularly when planning as athing that we need for human environments
(11:46):
becomes increasingly important and.
It's disturbing.
I saw and some data from the PlanningInstitute of Australia recently where
I think there is about 20% of councilsacross Australia where they're unable
to get permanent planning staff.
So there is a real shortage andthat's an interesting contrast to in
(12:06):
a Metropolitan Councils where theremay be up to a hundred candidates for
any planning position that comes up.
One of the things that I saw, like Igrew up in hind Marsh Shire and hind
marsh, worked for a very long timeto get any planning staff on there
and working in the better planningapprovals project previously with
(12:26):
the Victorian state government.
There's a real void, not just in termsof staffing, but also in terms of,
local understanding for planning issuesand the need to be able to deliver
regulatory, land use and developmentactivities in a local context.
(12:47):
ai, at least I feel well-trained, AI canstart to backfill some of that capacity.
That's it.
It's.
Going to make decisions on behalf of thosecommunities it could, but I feel that
it definitely shouldn't, but what it canreally do is it can, supercharge, it can
really increase those regulatory sort of.
(13:10):
Decision making processes, andbackfill some of that capacity.
Yes.
Just, to use a couple of examples, whatare some of the day-to-day applications
that you are seeing AI as being used for?
Is it things like planninginquiries to councils?
where a resident says, can Iput solar panels on my house,
it's got a heritage overlay.
What are the implications?
Is it that kind of thingor is it something more.
(13:31):
Yeah, the big one for Milot atthe moment has been growing and
expanding the planning inquiries tool.
That's exactly right, Jess.
And so that's beendeployed across Australia.
There's four councils using it here inVictoria, soon to be one in Queensland.
And the presence willgrow across the country.
Rather than that laborious, piecemealtask of planning assessment, the next
(13:54):
tool off the production line, so to speak,can reason, a fulsome assessment upfront.
And so that assessment useswhat's called vision ai.
And so that's like an overhead aerialwhere the artificial intelligence makes
an assessment of the site and surroundsit, can analyze the documentation.
(14:15):
Submitted and also look at thestate and local planning policies.
So it's a really big change.
It's a way of effectively gatheringall of the important documentation and
considerations together on one dashboard.
So that tool's, in development at themoment, and it is very much focused on
making A comprehensive upfront assessmentrather than the probably more, stage
(14:41):
by stage process that a lot of thoseassessments go through at the moment.
And does that still require a planner atcouncil to verify the information that's
being gathered, or does it go directlyto the person that has requested the.
information.
Yeah, it's essential that human planners,are still involved in that process.
(15:03):
So it will summarize the informationprovided, but it really does
require that verification checkon behalf of the planners as well.
And that's really important, notjust for artificial intelligence
tools in the planning process.
The human involvement is so importantbecause when we're making decisions
(15:24):
about the built environments that humanslive in, humans have to stay involved.
Pete, do you wanna tell us, about thewrap that AI created for the podcast?
Yes, we did.
We had, for our hundred 25th edition,Scott, we had, my elders son Tom,
programmed AI to do a review.
Two people talking of we've podcast.
(15:46):
We've had two, we've had areview and we've had a wrap.
Oh yeah.
So we've got a rap song too.
Yeah.
Which Jess and I mightrelease later this year.
But what I see Scott, isit's the battle of ai.
Applicants are also gonnahave, the similar tools
preparing their applications.
And that surely must have animpact on employment in planning.
(16:07):
So it's gonna be one AIsystem against another.
What are your thoughts on that?
It's the most common questionthat I get when speaking to
planners around the place.
They'll say things like, whyare you trying to replace me?
And my belief is that I just don'tthink that AI tools and AI integration
(16:29):
will replace human planners broadly.
good.
You can say that to them,but tell us the truth.
What do you think?
No, not at all.
I'm planning is inherently a humantask, but there's scope for disruption
as well, jess and Peter, you'd bothknow planning jobs are bundles of
dozens of tasks across the board.
(16:50):
Some are pretty low value and somewould call them soul destroying,
and others are really rewarding anduniquely human, high value tasks.
Scott, when I went back to Hindin Marshto look after that, shy for seven years,
I was staggered by the amount of processesthat council planners, local government
(17:11):
planners have to deal with and makingthe actual assessment and actually the
decision was about 10% of the process.
So if a AI can help, makebetter use of planners time.
Do you see where I'm going with this?
Totally.
And that's the part of the regulatoryprocess where AI tools can help so much,
(17:35):
Peter, I think that's really important.
Many planners will say, and certainlymy colleagues at Bayside would've
said this, their most enjoyable partof a process is in coming up with
the reasoning behind that decision.
So planners enjoy making decisionsand often they just accept the
administrative work as a part ofthe process, and that's where.
(17:58):
Really in time, I feel thatAI tools can assist planners
greatly in making more decisions.
Certainly regulatory publicsector planners can do, they
can diversify their skillset andfocus on things like negotiation.
They can focus on things like,ethics and making sure that their
(18:19):
existing systems are working wellbecause I totally agree with you.
At the moment, the system Is reallyburdened by processes and making sure
that everything's right and honestly riskmanagement a lot of the time as well.
When realistically, the people whobring those applications to those
(18:39):
councils, what they're actually therefor is a decision, not a process,
and that's something that needs help.
And on the flip side, Scott,sorry Jess, I just jump in there.
You talk about the burden onthe public sector planners,
but this is an enormous cost.
The compliance cost to.
The applicants, the private sector,which flows into high costs for everyone.
(19:00):
So there's, the process is a burden.
So partly Scott, we're going offtrack, but maybe the answer is not.
Maybe the answer is partly ai, butalso partly to look at, look given
a really hard look at the system andsay, is this processes fit for purpose?
Yeah, it's a good point and whatthe deployment of my Lot's Planning
(19:25):
Inquiries tool has found is thatpeople often have visions about what
they want to do with their property,but they don't know where to start.
A council staff member or even theright process to go through, and people
who have used the planning inquiriestool, they have an output that says
A permit is not likely required tobuild this shed on your residential
(19:49):
property, go to this stage instead.
And so our broad planning systemreally could do with A rethink about
the way that we communicate to people.
There is always going to be a needfor talented planners like yourself
and Jess to look at state shapingand federally important projects.
But for those minor activities, the, smallimprovements on people's properties that
(20:13):
can make their lives better and easier.
I feel like we could potentiallydo that a lot better.
I wonder whether there's any, association,I guess between the fact that a lot of
planning systems are, and I would say thisis probably across Australia and probably
in other countries as well, progressivelymoving more towards, codified systems
(20:37):
and the correlation between that andAI being released and AI being used and
utilized more frequently within planning.
Do you think we're going to see morecodification as a result of AI becoming.
A more frequent part of our work.
I don't know if it's a, Correlationor causation, where codification
(21:01):
provides greater certainty to peoplethat they'll receive an approval
based on, a 3D envelope or planningrules or different things like that.
But it certainly makes AI mucheasier to implement, doesn't it?
It does.
And interestingly, MyLight hasbeen doing some work with councils
(21:22):
across New South Wales whose DCP.
So their development controls, essentiallytheir codes are in old PDF documents.
Getting them into a format wherethey are machine readable is an
entirely different kettle of fish.
There has been some work here in Victoriarecently by the state government where
(21:42):
they have put in those 3D models withinthe new around train stations and
things like that, and I think there'smerit to what they're trying to achieve
Beginning with the endin mind, so to speak.
So they're looking in a precinctand saying, we would like to
see 1000 new houses in here.
But I do think that if we overcodify planning controls in order
(22:06):
to, create more confidence for.
The private sector or have machinereadable codes, it does risk taking
away some of the humanity, which isreally important to planning as well.
So this is my long-winded way ofsaying I think there is a balance
to be struck Jess, when it comes toplanning codes and being implemented.
(22:27):
I'm skeptical of those sort of precinctapproach that they're doing because they
often don't see that the fragmentationof prop parcels and all sorts of things.
But that's another topic, Scott.
Now
I thought you were gonna go into thequestion about how you incorporate The
experience of older professionals, Pete,
ah, we're getting to that, Jess, but Iwanted to ask because we will get to the
(22:50):
importance of seniority in the profession.
Scott, which is, Jess is coming aroundto that, I think, but, she's only about
32, so she doesn't quite understand yet.
But anyway, one, one thing Ihave problem with my chat, GPT.
Which I've nicknamed Sarah,Scott, is that she's really, she's
infected by the woke mind virus.
(23:10):
So every time I wanna put somethingin, she just gives me this,
just sometimes garbage back.
How do we ensure and your company'sinvolved in this, no doubt.
How do we ensure that the data used byour AI systems is reliable and unbiased?
It is probably best to answer thisquestion by lifting up the bonnet
(23:31):
on the my lot car potentially, ormy lot planning inquiries tool, but
it's a really important question.
And so how Mylo has structuredtheir planning inquiries tool
is in effectively three parts.
So the first, the foundationalwork for the tour is commercially
accessible large language models.
(23:53):
So they're trained by all of the companiesthat we hear about and have been making
millions and millions of dollars recently.
Companies like ai, open ai,Google and those types of things.
So the models are built from thefoundation there, and there's a
suite of those options available.
But secondly, from there, the MyLightdesigns and maintains lots of experts
(24:18):
to prompt the large language modelquestioning and also guidance based
on local planning controls andpolicies, what's in the surrounding
context, and most importantly,the inputs from users of the tool.
So the inputs which, techspeak calls those utterances.
(24:38):
They're inherently biased, andso that's important to say.
Users of the tool know whatthey want to know, and they'll
answer the questions accordingly.
But the removal of biases comethrough the expert prompts because
they've been solely trained onlocal planning schemes and policies.
So they ask questions, based on whata planner or someone assessing the
(25:01):
local planning scheme would know.
And the last part, the third part,but really important part is mylo
employs planners whose job it isto review the performance of these
outputs and determine alignment withthe local planning schemes, and really
importantly, the human expectationsof local planning departments.
(25:24):
It's a pretty new role and it suits.
Attention to details.
Talented sort of regulatory, real meatand potato type planners who can analyze
things down, to a level of detailto do with formatting in each word.
So when you piece it all together,when you look at it in action, It
(25:44):
seems simple, but I think those threeinputs, the large language model, the
prompts, the experts, and then thehuman planners are the ways in which the
data's relatively reliable and unbiased.
So there's still a rolefor you there, Pete?
Meat and potato planner?
That's me, Jess.
But I like curries as well, of course.
(26:04):
I find AI to be like a junior.
Work assistant and very good insome things, but it hallucinates
and that's the technical term.
Jess,
explain some of the emails thatI get from Pete late at night
And that's right to the term is rightScott but I wanted to ask you about, look,
there was a recent editor on the WallStreet Journal that said, AI's biggest
(26:27):
threat, young people who can't thinkand Right, and that goes on to the next
question, which Jess was prompting before.
How can the experienced and contextualunderstanding of older or more experienced
professionals strengthen the waywe use AI in planning, particularly
in crafting meaningful prompts?
(26:48):
Interpreting results and knowing what,when automation falls short and young
graduates might not have the same insight.
You are talking about meatand potatoes, but is that the
sort of thing you are doing?
So it's just if you're young and youare using ai, you might not have that
broader knowledge and understandingof what to look for and what to be
(27:08):
careful of and what it's missing.
What do you think, Scott?
Help us out.
What I've seen so far working indeveloping AI tools is I reckon there's
three buckets of planners when itcomes to engaging with the tools.
The younger career planners, somewould call them Gen Zs, they use
(27:28):
generative AI in their day to day.
So they're really enthusiastic aboutthe application of the tools, but may
not necessarily have the knowledgeto understand how they're deployed.
I find, Peter and Jess thatthey're mid-career planners.
Who are really concerned aboutthe impacts on their longevity in
(27:49):
the industry, and they've becomecomfortable in their processes and
don't necessarily want the disruption.
But what's really surprised me is thatlater career planners have been relatively
eager adopters of ai, and whether that'sbecause the industry has changed so much
across the world over the past 20, 30, 40years, whether that's because these folks.
(28:13):
Later career planners understandthe potential or see the benefits.
I think that knowledge that latercareer planners hold and those frames
that they bring is so important tobuilding the new tools and making
sure that they're well reasoned.
Not just for today's context, but basedon the context that career planners
have seen throughout their career.
(28:33):
I think it's so important that.
We take the experience that peoplehave and implement them through
the prompts in the tools as well.
And I think it's also reallyimportant that we don't rely on,
and accept AI tools as being perfecttoday because the ability to.
Change them.
The planning inquiries tool withMylo, we used it and implemented
(28:56):
it with Bayside, going back sortof six months ago and it was good.
Then it answered like it.
A planner with perhaps sixmonths worth of experience.
It used language that wasn't quiteright, but it did reason its way to the
right answer and it's amazing to see.
Six months later, it's a lot more mature.
It now feels a bit more like aplanner with five years experience.
(29:18):
It gives comprehensive answers,clear guidance and things like that.
And a lot of that comes from theexperienced planners who have
been training that tool over time.
We thank Victorian PlanningReports, our very first supporter.
If you want the A to Z of planningdecisions in Victoria and excellent
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(29:40):
Details on our website
we would like to thank Elison Properties,a terrific sponsor of the podcast,
great people, great properties.
Details on our website.
So Scott, obviously we've spokenabout the various ways in which
Mylo and other AI tools can, fillthat gap of, the work that perhaps
you and I don't want to necessarilybe doing on a day-to-day basis.
(30:02):
I would say that all real progress,whether it be scientific policy or
otherwise, comes from challengingassumptions, creating new knowledge
and discarding outdated rules.
How can we ensure that AI can be perhapsused or utilized as a tool for genuine
innovation in planning, rather than justa crutch that reinforces that status quo?
(30:25):
Where are the opportunities?
Do you see?
I think it's really important thathumans, like particularly people
earlier in their careers, don't losethe ability for critical thinking.
Jess and artificial intelligence can docritical thinking and it can reason its
way towards decisions, but, particularlyfor us in the planning industry, I think
(30:48):
it's so important that humans stay inthe loop and really are the ultimate.
Decision makers in those processes.
So a different way, like a more effectiveway perhaps could be to use AI to collect
lots of information from across theinternet and different things like that.
(31:09):
Ultimately people reallydo need to stay involved.
Some of the planners that I'vespoken to are effectively saying
to me, at what stage will AI starttaking decisions away from us?
And if you step people through theprocess of delegating decision-making
to an AI tool, it would be a verybrave politician who would do that.
(31:31):
But I also think that whereAI creates an opportunity.
For better decisions and betteroutcomes comes from the capacity.
Let's talk about that 90% capacity.
Suggest in that it might free up alot of our time, and perhaps planners
could work on things like encouragingactive participation from communities
(31:54):
and not just, focusing on processes.
I think the planning system morebroadly can use and deploy AI for
everything to be better and faster,but that doesn't necessarily mean that
we should just make more decisions.
I think what we can do asan industry is focus on.
Some of the things that we haven't hadtime to do, listening to communities
(32:15):
doing more negotiation, particularlyas public sector planners, rather
than just using AI as a way to, cutbudgets and deliver more output,
observation.
Sorry, Pete, an observation I'vemade over the last, probably.
15 years in particular is the,watering down I'd call it, of community
(32:37):
consultation in planning processes,particularly, just day-to-day
applications and those sorts of things.
It used to be that, you would be pulledinto the council chambers and made to
present about an application, put forwardyour case, and invariably you'd have.
Tomatoes and apples thrownat you from the audience.
It was never a very positive process.
(32:59):
I'm not complaining that is no longersomething that we have to do as a
day-to-day thing, but I'm just wondering,is there, or have you considered,
are there opportunities in improvingconsultation processes using ai?
I'm not sure that it would be seenpositively, but are there opportunities?
(33:22):
I'm not sure if, I think it wouldrequire a rethink from a human
planner's perspective, Jess.
And I think that there are waysin which, there is also the risk,
of AI being used on behalf ofthe community to write responses.
So I think there are the sortof broad risks there as well,
(33:42):
An AI tool present thingshowever you prompt it to.
And so there is scope to reach out toa broader segment of the community.
Realistically, you can hear feedback fromacross the world based on local issues,
really the architecture, talking aboutwho it's most important to hear from
and what you would like to know, it isreally important, and in some ways we
(34:05):
could use AI to free up capacity withinlocal offices Deploy humans to focus
on more, empathy and understanding andhearing from those local communities.
And that can be really relevantfor, assessing individual planning
applications, regulatory practice.
(34:25):
But I think that there's real potentialthere for greater participation in
policymaking and realistically, that's.
Where communities probably canand should be more involved in
shaping the vision of that future.
There is also, of course, potential forAI to interpret that feedback and take
that and start to write those policies.
(34:47):
But it's essential that humans stay atthe center of that at the same time.
So it's just eventhinking, a lot of those.
Engage in Victoria.
I'm sure all states have it, but inVictoria it's called Engage Victoria.
Those sorts of surveys and thingsthat are put out generally around,
substantial policy change ornew policy coming into effect.
(35:08):
Is there an opportunity for things like.
The little bots to sit on the sideof the screen so that the community
can say, does this affect me?
And put their address in and it couldactually spit out and say no, you are
actually outside of the study area.
And those sorts of things.
Are there opportunitiesthere that we could be using?
There's positives inthat type of approach.
Jess and I understand that there are some.
(35:30):
Public sector agencies who have alreadystarted to use those types of tools to
collect information from the public.
There's also the opportunity for reallylarge scale projects where there might be
thousands and thousands of submissions tocollect all of that data and start to pass
out themes and different things like that.
(35:52):
So that's a great opportunity for AI to.
understand what a broad segment of thecommunity is looking for, but that comes
with risks in and of itself as well.
There's nuance in people'ssubmissions and we all would have
seen them, those submissions toplanning applications over time.
What people write and what theymean might be different things, and
(36:15):
when you hear from them in person.
Actually what people areinterested in is a little bit
different to what they write down.
So I think it's important thatas AI is integrated into those
consultation processes, that theprompt engineering, the architecture
behind it, is still capable ofpicking up what people actually mean.
(36:35):
And I think that's where human planis, will be needed to make sure that
it, the outputs accurately represent.
All of the data,
Good words, Scott and Jess.
But from my experience, most plannersfind public consultation and nuisance
and they don't pay any attention to it.
But that's just my old cynical approach.
(36:57):
And I certainly don't trust big,state government surveys of people.
'cause all they want is more trees,more bike lanes and development.
Not near them.
But anyway, I'm sorry Jess.
I'm cynical, but Jess asked a verygood question, Scott, which is ai.
As a tool for genuine innovationin planning rather than a crutch
(37:17):
that reinforces the status quo.
So let's moonshot.
We like to do that.
AI to solve planning problemssuch as housing shortages, by
questioning the status quo.
I'll put it to you, that planningpolicies on housing have, at least
listeners in where we are in Victoria,have been the same since I started
as a graduate, so over 40 years.
(37:38):
Over that time, the housingproblems got worse and worse, but
planners clinging to or double downon those old policies, expecting
them to provide solutions, right?
And no one wants tochallenge the orthodoxy.
Can AI and some free thinkers use the dataavailable on AI to create alternatives
(38:08):
and maybe in a nonpolitical way,
So currently we assess newdevelopments in relative isolation.
Here in Victoria and probablythroughout the westernized world,
things like structure plans andstrategic planning, and they look
at things like building form design,setbacks, materiality, all of those.
(38:30):
I suppose planning crutches that havedeveloped over time and how a development
looks and how it sits in the urbanlandscape is really important, but it's
just a small part of how a new buildingwill operate once people move into it.
And we hear concerns all across the worldof balancing urban growth with capacity
(38:51):
constraints in enabling infrastructure.
Things likes public Tsystems, water, energy grid.
Here in Australia, at least workingas a regulatory planner, we turn
away from those broad scoops of dataand those really important parts
of, ensuring that new developmentssit within enabling infrastructure.
(39:13):
Here in Australia, homes getbuilt first and the infrastructure
often comes afterwards.
So one way that I like to think about.
AI being deployed is perhaps there's aworld in which an AI platform used by
state and local governments can consider,the enabling infrastructure around new
developments and have more responsivehousing policies, steering new development
(39:38):
into the right areas that are wellserviced by enabling infrastructure,
dynamic zoning and structure planningcould increase capacity once new
infrastructure is developed rather thannew planning policies being developed
with the hope that new infrastructurewill one day be delivered as well.
And as I was thinking about this in thelead up to the podcast, I thought of the
(40:02):
example of writing in a planning report.
In many of my assessments, I wouldwrite something like, there will be no
adverse impacts to the local sew networkfor approving a local development.
But something that would be, data drivenand something that AI could present to a
planner could look so much more dynamic.
(40:23):
And so in a future state planningreport, a planner could write
something like, approval of thisdevelopment would result in, say, a
2.5% increase in sewage discharge.
Within this Rack road sub block,this means that the local sewer
infrastructure is at 89% capacity.
Based on the likely demographicsof future residents, their fiber
(40:47):
consumption will be high, whichensures strong sewage motility.
Therefore, there will be no adverseimpacts to the local sewer network.
So you end up with the same outcome,but it's clearly a data-driven outcome.
Using AI data sets where all of thedata can be available to people all of
(41:08):
the time, we really can make better,more informed planning decisions.
It's just about getting accessto that data when you need it.
If you can trust the government.
Scott, many years ago Jess andI talked to our guests about.
The day when robots would make planningdecisions and we were laughed at.
Do you remember all that, Jess?
Absolutely.
with the tools we've got now, Scott,that you are developing in your firm, the
(41:32):
Tyrell Corporation, I think it's called.
But no, that's from Bladerunner.
That's right.
do you think there is a time,it's not so silly that AI
could make planning decisions.
What do you think?
So if we want to be, we are there now,and I don't know if we need Elon Musk
to develop the robots to make thosedecisions, but certainly generative
AI could make planning decisions.
(41:54):
But just because it can doesn'tnecessarily mean that it should either.
I talked a little bit earlier about.
Having to delegate decision making.
And I would've thought that most citycouncils across the world will be unlikely
to be comfortable with that anytime soon.
also, I think there is an importantpart there to say that humans are
(42:15):
unlikely to want to give up controlfor how their cities are built, but
it cycles back around really too.
One of the things that brought me onboard here at my light, the name of
the company that I work for, not TyrellCorporation, is that AI can assist humans
in making better, more informed decisions.
(42:36):
And so while robots could makeplanning decisions, I don't
necessarily think that's in.
Anyone's best interest necessarily.
Now before we get onto Podcast Extra,are you familiar with the Jevons paradox
that he was an economist in the 19thcentury who studied the use of coal and.
(42:57):
What he found, the paradox is thatthe more efficient steam engines
were, people would naturallythink there's less coal consumed.
But what actually happens is whenproducts are made cheaper and
more usable, more efficient, youget to use a lot more of them.
instead of.
Less steam engine use.
Steam engines became much morepractical for lots of things.
(43:19):
So there was more coal with thisai, with all this extra data and
all this extra intellectual grant,I'll call it that, will planning
processes get harder or easier, andthen we'll get onto Podcast Extra,
Access to more information,which ultimately is what
(43:39):
generative AI provides to people.
More information, more tools.
I think it's really important, Peter,that doesn't come at the cost of
understanding what I've been sayingto people and how I feel about it is
that fundamentally human emotions willbecome and remain really important.
So just because we have access to trovesof information and the ability to.
(44:05):
Write different things and use generativeAI for lots of different things.
Doesn't necessarily meanthat it's the right approach.
I think things like, understandingwill remain really important in
planning and things like that.
The.
Example that I often thinkof is my uncle and cousin.
My cousin is 19 years old and hewatches TikTok pathologically,
(44:29):
like he watches it all of the time.
So my uncle asks him a questionand he'll always know the answer.
He knows so much information, andmy uncle says to him, all right,
can you explain to me the logic?
Behind that information that you'vejust shared with me, and what he
started to find is his 19-year-old son,my cousin, he folds really quickly.
(44:52):
So he's got access to all of thesedifferent things through TikTok
and the algorithm that's beencatered to what he's looking for.
But that doesn't fundamentally meanthat he understands how the world works.
He doesn't have expertisein any one particular area.
I think thinking about theJEVONS paradox, that's really
important when it comes to ai.
(45:14):
We can become really powerfuldeploying these different tools
in planning processes or even indifferent parts of our lives, but
that doesn't fundamentally mean thatwe're, able to understand or actually
deliver high quality outputs as well.
The brain needs to be trained andthe brain needs to be exercised.
(45:35):
Scott Podcast, extra Culture Corner.
Are you a very interesting fellow?
You must have something great for ourlisteners, a recommendation, something
you've watched, seen, experienced,anything that might be of interest.
So this is more of ayarn than anything else.
Probably going back to.
Growing up in Northwestern Victoria,I think it's really important living
(45:57):
out in the country that you get goodat telling stories, telling yarns.
And my yarn has to do withgenerative AI as well, and.
my wife has signed off on mesharing this story as well.
For a bit of a joke recently, I,typed into my chat GPT prompt to draft
questions for my wife about, inquiringabout the state of our relationship.
And I thought it would be goodfor nothing else other than to
(46:21):
provoke an interesting conversation.
Have a couple of laughs.
I didn't tell her that I was gonna doit, and she was midway through doing
the dishes when I just started firingall these profound questions at her
about the state of our relationship.
Was interesting was, is that she answeredthe first two really enthusiastically,
and she was, gesticulating andtaking her wet hands out of the sink.
(46:44):
But then after I asked the thirdquestion, she turned around
and said, what's going on here?
This something's weird.
they're very smart.
They're very smart, Scott.
They know when you go out ofsomething a bit out of ordinary,
they know something's going on.
Fair enough, Jess.
Women are astute observers ofhuman, . Sorry, Scott, keep going.
(47:05):
How did you go?
You still together?
We absolutely are.
And what was interesting was I fessed upand explained, look, I did this as a bit
of a joke and we actually went throughthe last couple of questions together
and had some really good conversationsand a couple of laughs out of it,
What it did is it really illustratedways in which AI can be great, but
also in the ways in which being a humanis still really important as well.
(47:30):
I didn't absolutely rely on theoutput for my communication.
Once I was challenged by my wifeand she said, what's going on?
I was able to respond in a way in which.
I normally would, it didn't necessarilyreplace our human connection, but
that didn't necessarily mean thatthe content in there couldn't be
something that we connected over either.
(47:51):
Yeah, it was an interesting experienceand also taught me a couple of things.
I'll be sure to not slam the front doorquite so often when I leave the house.
'cause as it turns out, thatwas the answer to question four
about what's driving her crazy.
The Jess, that's notso Scott's experience.
I've had similar experience with,Sarah, my chat, GPT assistant and I
(48:12):
say, how can I be a better person?
Because you're constantly interacting.
And I also try and chat her up.
She says, please keepthis professional right.
I say, what color are your eyes, Sarah?
And she goes, I don't have eyes, but Isaid, look, just imagine you had eyes
anyway, Scott, enough about my, but I'veasked it, how can I improve relationships?
Or what am I doing wrong with this?
(48:33):
With psychology, and it's incrediblygood, Jess, about guidance
on how to be a better person
knows you well, it knows
everything about you.
maybe she listens to your podcastand she's taken that data and
she's worked down everythingthat she needs to know about you.
No, not everything, Jess.
So now Jess, you always haveexcellent podcast extras.
(48:56):
What is yours?
Mine is a Netflix show.
You may have watched it, Titan aboutthe Ocean Gate submersible disaster.
It's quite frightening.
As someone that's slightlyclaustrophobic, I can safely say I
will never ever go on a submarine,
so I highly recommend.
(49:17):
What's good about it, Jess?
It's, to be honest, Ididn't know a lot about it.
That happened what, 2020.
Three-ish I think it was.
I remember it being in the media abit and I just don't think I ever
really, read too much into it.
But it's just really interesting,around some of the moral dilemmas,
that the CEO, had and some ofthe decisions that were made.
(49:40):
It's very interesting.
Very sad as well.
But would highly recommend.
What about you, Pete?
Mine's not a book or anything, Jess.
As I'm doing a bit of land regeneration.
Scott, you're from the country, youunderstand all this, but I'm fixing
up some land that had pine plantationon it, and the pines were harvested
and then all the regrowth came backand no one ever looked after it.
(50:02):
So my task over the last.
Three or four years isto get into these pines.
So I'm constantly using a chainsaw.
And on the weekend, Jess, I wascutting and it was my second tank,
Scott, and sure enough, the chainsawhit my leg, but, just grazed it.
But fortunately, Jess, I'm allkitted up in my still outfit.
(50:24):
So I've got these things called chaps,which as soon as the chain look, I
look, it's not what you are thinking.
I'm not like, I'm not wearing cowboy.
Chaps going to nightclubs or things?
Oh, I've got a great imagein my head right now.
These
things have, Scott, you knowwhat I'm talking about, right?
So please excuse my co-host.
But these chaps, what they do is soon asthe chain hits the chaps, it locks up.
(50:47):
So it stops the chain goingthrough your leg, basically.
I feel like they'reprobably not called chaps.
Have you got the name wrong?
Scott?
Can you help me out here please?
Whether that's a colloquial nameor whether that's actually what
they're called, that's certainlywhat they got called in that I
thought I could, I thoughtI could rely on you, Scott.
I've been very easy on the questions.
I thought you'd be a good ally here.
(51:08):
But anyway, so Jess, the what?
I'm, anyway, so I just grazed it.
It cut the chaps.
If I had have been wearing jeansor something like that, it would've
gone through, it would've hit the.
Flash and stuff, it was near my knee.
So what I'm suggesting to people is ifyou've got safety gear, doesn't matter
whether you power tools, whatever.
Always wear glasses when you areusing your chainsaw and a helmet
(51:30):
of course and everything else.
But always look after safety issuesbecause I had a very close encounter.
It could have been pretty uglyout in the bush there by myself.
So Scott, what do you thinkof my, so we'll summarize
your, summarize your recommendation as.
Wear more chaps,
especially the highly visibleones with still written on them.
(51:52):
Jess, and I'm not going tocowboy bars wearing them.
All right.
Or, alright.
Anyway, Scott, we didn't, I didn't thinkwe'd end on that note, but, thank you for
being a wonderful guest for our podcast.
Anything else you'd liketo finally say, Jess?
No, I'm okay.
I'm still laughing about chaps over here.
Alright, Scott, thank you Scott,though it's been a really interesting
(52:13):
conversation and I think it's verytimely, given where we are in the
industry and where we're heading.
So very interesting.
Thanks very much for your time.
Oh, great.
We've got greatlyappreciate the opportunity.
Thank you both.
And I really enjoy listeningto the podcast, so it's
still delightful to be on.
You're an excellent guest.
And one final thing, Scott, doyou think Skynet is gonna get us.
(52:35):
Not in, not anytime soon,but, I think Elon Musk is the
manifestation of Skynet in 2025 so,
oh, he's a hero of mine.
Thanks.
Thanks for listening.
If you would like to hear more of ourpodcasts, hit the follow button on Spotify
or the like button on SoundCloud orthe subscribe button in Apple podcasts.
(52:56):
Please also visit our Instagrampage, LinkedIn or website for behind
the scenes footage of our podcastsand to get the latest on upcoming
or recently released episodes.
If you have any suggestions orfeedback, please get in touch via
our social media channels or byemailing planningxchangeatgmail.
com.
This podcast is supported by VPLA.
Victorian PlanningEnvironmental Law Association.
Welcome to the Planning Exchangewhere we interview built environment
professionals who are doinginteresting work beyond the ordinary.
I'm Jess Noonan and I'm joinedby my colleague Peter Jewell.
Today we're speaking with Scott Matheson.
Scott is the head of planning atMylo, an Australian AI tech company,
(00:23):
simplifying the property planning processfor councils and their communities.
Formerly a statutory planning coordinatorat Bayside City Council here in Victoria.
Scott has LED planning for councils,consultancies, and at the Victorian
Department of Transport and Planning.
Welcome to the show, Scott.
Thanks very much Jess.
Great to be here.
(00:43):
Now, how on earth haveyou got into planning?
How have you then transitioned into ai?
It's a big question and I really,I call myself a regulatory planner
by trade, and I really enjoy thedirtiness and the detail and how
personal, what we call here in Victoria.
Statutory planning is, that's likedoing assessments and approvals
(01:06):
of new land uses and developmentseverywhere throughout the state.
It's really frontlineplanning work, I grew up in.
Remote Northwestern Victoria in a smalltown with a couple of hundred people
where really town planning is thefurthest thing from those residents mines.
But my father in that town was aregulator of pest plants and animals
(01:29):
for the Victorian state government, andhe was involved in a range of really
interesting regulatory projects for megrowing up, including the foundational
study into Little Penguin Habitatson Philip Island here in Victoria.
So that work eventually in time ledto the most significant land buyback
(01:49):
from the Victorian state governmentin our state's history, where the old
residential estate on Phillip Island hasbeen reclaimed as little penguin habitat.
Although town planning was far frommy mind, I learned about the power and
influence of regulations early in life.
Then I lived overseas for 10years and then shifted back to
(02:11):
Australia and had always been reallyfascinated by how humans create
the environments in which we live.
And I was ready at thatstage for a career change.
Had a decent academic recordfrom my time in the United
States and Melbourne University.
I dunno why, but they took a chanceon a mature age master's student,
(02:33):
which is actually a funny story.
So I decided on a Friday that planningwas the right thing for me to study, but
I had missed the, midyear applicationcutoff, so I made personal phone
calls to a few Victorian universities.
Melbourne University is quite aprestigious institution here in Victoria.
(02:54):
Especially for a humble lad from RegionalVictoria and Melbourne Uni was my third.
And, perhaps, biggest shot in thedark phone call after the first
two universities had just saidflat, no, look mate, you need
to be a lot more organized, but.
Coincidentally, I called MelbourneUni on Friday afternoon, submitted my
application on the Monday, and on thefollowing Thursday, three days later, I
(03:17):
was sitting in an orientation class andit's really amazing to look back on it
now, how quickly everything came together.
Given that would shape the next10, 20, 30 years of my life.
So I did some lecturing and tutoringat Melbourne Uni to make ends meet
and felt like a little bit of afraud teaching undergrad students,
about planning and never havingbeen on the tools in that space.
(03:39):
So about 10 years ago, I commenced theworld in planning and away we went.
Scott, imposter syndrome is,something that many people, encounter.
I do all the time and Jess.
Scott's from Rainbow, which is a placeI know well because I managed the town
planning for the Shire that rainbow's in.
(04:00):
And Scott, when I was a student, whenI was at secondary school, we went
up to Rainbow to study it becauseof the declining population, because
it's all a big wheat area and allthe towns are shrinking and so it
is quite famous in planning circles,were you aware of all those studies?
Certainly wasn't aware of rainbow'sfame growing up, Peter, but I can think
(04:24):
back to where I grew up right on theedge of rainbow and, looking out over
intermittently, either a sheep field or awheat field, depending on what the local
farmers thought was the best solution.
And, certainly the townshipitself has been adapting.
Relatively well to what's calledacross the world, rural decline.
(04:45):
So there was a really strong committee,like a township committee where.
They attract events, I think it's calledthe Rainbow Rises Dirt Rally or something
that occurs there every 12 months or so.
They've repurposed the old primaryschool and turned it into what's
called the Rainbow oasis, where it'sa community hub and things like that.
(05:06):
So to the town's crediting Rainbow,the locals have really mucked in and
developed a really strong sense ofwhat it is to live in Rainbow and
be a part of the local community.
The locals might, dispute theircharacterization that it's a famous place.
Not famous, but it's a wonderfulplace and lots of really.
High quality community groups, buthow do you think coming from a small
(05:29):
place like that has shaped your careerand how you relate to other people.
Yeah, that's a really great question and Ithink it's difficult to explain to people
who've grown up in cities, but you becomeso much more important as an individual
growing up in small communities.
And I was really fortunate Peter to.
(05:50):
Graduate high school from what wascalled Rainbow Secondary College,
and there was about 10 to 12students that graduated in my class.
And so you get an opportunityto be immersed in all different
aspects of school and township life.
In my last year I was, student councilpresident, leader of the sports team,
(06:10):
got involved in the local productionof stage shows and things like that.
And the reality is in small towns that ifyou don't take on those roles, then many
of those activities simply don't happen.
So it's really important to just muck inand as we call in Australia, have a crack.
Because if you don't havea go at things, then.
(06:31):
Things may never go ahead, and that'sbeen really valuable for me traveling,
throughout the world, but also taking intomy planning career over time to say that.
To muck in and have a go atsomething really is the first
step to making something happen.
Whether that's a vision, whetherthat's making a difficult phone
call, whether that's fronting, anangry community meeting and planning.
(06:54):
There's all of these differentthings where we really do have
to apply the principle of havinga crack, having a go at things.
And I think that's really helpedme with my frame, as a planner.
I think I'd almost go so far to say aswell though, that people that grow up
in the country, particularly in ruralareas, probably do have a little bit
more confidence in their abilities forthat exact reason because you're forced
(07:17):
to be, as you say, courageous and totake those opportunities, perhaps more
so than people coming from the city.
I don't know.
Do you agree, Pete?
You're from Geelong.
Originally,
I didn't grow up in the, I grew up in aregional town, but I believe that, you're
onto something there, Jess, that peoplewho grow up in the country are, from my
experience, much more polite and muchmore respectful because when you're in
(07:40):
a smaller community, naturally there'sall this sort of osmosis around you.
That you are much more protective ofyour community and much more aware of.
you have a lot more social mix.
You have a lot more mixwith people with frailties.
So I think you are generally a betterperson, but what do you think, Jess?
(08:01):
I grew up in the country, soI'm gonna take that as a Yes.
You're a wonderful person, Jess.
Now back to the planning podcast.
Scott, what inspired you totransition from working at
Bayside City Council, which is afair size, metropolitan council.
In Melbourne by the Bay listeners, to joina company focused on AI and town planning.
(08:23):
it's a good question, Peter, and Isuppose Jess outlined it earlier in the
introduction, but I've done a little bitof everything since becoming a planner.
There's been some consulting workand working for the Victorian state
government, but the truth is my realpassion is in local government planning.
So I loved being at Bayside, right at theintersection of down and dirty planning
(08:47):
rules, the local community and alsothat drive to deliver better approvals,
processes, keep delivering more housing,and start to meet that housing shortage.
And some of your guests have talked aboutit in the past, but the skill and art.
In the job of regulatory planningreally is weighed down by the
(09:08):
burden of administrative tasksand the focus on process rather
than pushing towards outcomes.
I agree with those perspectives, andthere's a real disconnect between
regulatory planners who focus onthose administrative tasks and
their process and the realitieswithin which those approvals sit.
(09:28):
Regulatory planners, speak a differentway, and they often have to take
time to learn how to or relearnhow to speak to the community.
And on the other hand, communitiesmay feel that regulatory planners
aren't out on the ground and don'treally understand the realities of
what's happening in their communities.
Although I love the role, love theservice that the local government gives,
(09:52):
I found myself wedged between lettingpeople down often and not being able to
do things as effectively as I wanted.
Really being drawn away fromthe art of regulatory planning,
So it continued to upset me.
And meanwhile, I had the opportunityto join my lot it's a really small
firm doing some agile and reallydynamic work in that space, but also
(10:17):
whose mission really aligned with thethings that I look at, which is making,
planning more accessible, answeringquestions in simple and plain language.
And I spoke to a couple of the.
Founders of that company andreally enjoyed their vision.
And I'm sure I'll say this throughouttoday, AI is far from a silver bullet
for all of the problems in planning,but it really can help, or at least
(10:40):
I feel that it really can help.
And the rest was history.
I bought into the vision and have reallybeen enjoying my time with my life
so Scott, I guess one of the otherthings I'm interested in, you talk about
the efficiencies that AI can have, inplanning processes was I guess part
of the, particularly your experienceworking at Bayside and at state
(11:02):
government was part of the inspiration,I guess around joining an AI firm.
Partly to do with, declining townplanner numbers, particularly
in Victoria, but I know that'sa common story across Australia.
Do you see ai, helping fill a bitof a gap there in terms of the
numbers of planners that we have?
(11:24):
Yeah, because that doesn't seem
to be improving anytime soon.
Hugely, Jess and I think the.
The front end of that happens in thecontext of university programs, closing
down planning courses throughoutAustralia, which is really hard to hear
about, particularly when planning as athing that we need for human environments
(11:46):
becomes increasingly important and.
It's disturbing.
I saw and some data from the PlanningInstitute of Australia recently where
I think there is about 20% of councilsacross Australia where they're unable
to get permanent planning staff.
So there is a real shortage andthat's an interesting contrast to in
(12:06):
a Metropolitan Councils where theremay be up to a hundred candidates for
any planning position that comes up.
One of the things that I saw, like Igrew up in hind Marsh Shire and hind
marsh, worked for a very long timeto get any planning staff on there
and working in the better planningapprovals project previously with
(12:26):
the Victorian state government.
There's a real void, not just in termsof staffing, but also in terms of,
local understanding for planning issuesand the need to be able to deliver
regulatory, land use and developmentactivities in a local context.
(12:47):
ai, at least I feel well-trained, AI canstart to backfill some of that capacity.
That's it.
It's.
Going to make decisions on behalf of thosecommunities it could, but I feel that
it definitely shouldn't, but what it canreally do is it can, supercharge, it can
really increase those regulatory sort of.
(13:10):
Decision making processes, andbackfill some of that capacity.
Yes.
Just, to use a couple of examples, whatare some of the day-to-day applications
that you are seeing AI as being used for?
Is it things like planninginquiries to councils?
where a resident says, can Iput solar panels on my house,
it's got a heritage overlay.
What are the implications?
Is it that kind of thingor is it something more.
(13:31):
Yeah, the big one for Milot atthe moment has been growing and
expanding the planning inquiries tool.
That's exactly right, Jess.
And so that's beendeployed across Australia.
There's four councils using it here inVictoria, soon to be one in Queensland.
And the presence willgrow across the country.
Rather than that laborious, piecemealtask of planning assessment, the next
(13:54):
tool off the production line, so to speak,can reason, a fulsome assessment upfront.
And so that assessment useswhat's called vision ai.
And so that's like an overhead aerialwhere the artificial intelligence makes
an assessment of the site and surroundsit, can analyze the documentation.
(14:15):
Submitted and also look at thestate and local planning policies.
So it's a really big change.
It's a way of effectively gatheringall of the important documentation and
considerations together on one dashboard.
So that tool's, in development at themoment, and it is very much focused on
making A comprehensive upfront assessmentrather than the probably more, stage
(14:41):
by stage process that a lot of thoseassessments go through at the moment.
And does that still require a planner atcouncil to verify the information that's
being gathered, or does it go directlyto the person that has requested the.
information.
Yeah, it's essential that human planners,are still involved in that process.
(15:03):
So it will summarize the informationprovided, but it really does
require that verification checkon behalf of the planners as well.
And that's really important, notjust for artificial intelligence
tools in the planning process.
The human involvement is so importantbecause when we're making decisions
(15:24):
about the built environments that humanslive in, humans have to stay involved.
Pete, do you wanna tell us, about thewrap that AI created for the podcast?
Yes, we did.
We had, for our hundred 25th edition,Scott, we had, my elders son Tom,
programmed AI to do a review.
Two people talking of we've podcast.
(15:46):
We've had two, we've had areview and we've had a wrap.
Oh yeah.
So we've got a rap song too.
Yeah.
Which Jess and I mightrelease later this year.
But what I see Scott, isit's the battle of ai.
Applicants are also gonnahave, the similar tools
preparing their applications.
And that surely must have animpact on employment in planning.
(16:07):
So it's gonna be one AIsystem against another.
What are your thoughts on that?
It's the most common questionthat I get when speaking to
planners around the place.
They'll say things like, whyare you trying to replace me?
And my belief is that I just don'tthink that AI tools and AI integration
(16:29):
will replace human planners broadly.
good.
You can say that to them,but tell us the truth.
What do you think?
No, not at all.
I'm planning is inherently a humantask, but there's scope for disruption
as well, jess and Peter, you'd bothknow planning jobs are bundles of
dozens of tasks across the board.
(16:50):
Some are pretty low value and somewould call them soul destroying,
and others are really rewarding anduniquely human, high value tasks.
Scott, when I went back to Hindin Marshto look after that, shy for seven years,
I was staggered by the amount of processesthat council planners, local government
(17:11):
planners have to deal with and makingthe actual assessment and actually the
decision was about 10% of the process.
So if a AI can help, makebetter use of planners time.
Do you see where I'm going with this?
Totally.
And that's the part of the regulatoryprocess where AI tools can help so much,
(17:35):
Peter, I think that's really important.
Many planners will say, and certainlymy colleagues at Bayside would've
said this, their most enjoyable partof a process is in coming up with
the reasoning behind that decision.
So planners enjoy making decisionsand often they just accept the
administrative work as a part ofthe process, and that's where.
(17:58):
Really in time, I feel thatAI tools can assist planners
greatly in making more decisions.
Certainly regulatory publicsector planners can do, they
can diversify their skillset andfocus on things like negotiation.
They can focus on things like,ethics and making sure that their
(18:19):
existing systems are working wellbecause I totally agree with you.
At the moment, the system Is reallyburdened by processes and making sure
that everything's right and honestly riskmanagement a lot of the time as well.
When realistically, the people whobring those applications to those
(18:39):
councils, what they're actually therefor is a decision, not a process,
and that's something that needs help.
And on the flip side, Scott,sorry Jess, I just jump in there.
You talk about the burden onthe public sector planners,
but this is an enormous cost.
The compliance cost to.
The applicants, the private sector,which flows into high costs for everyone.
(19:00):
So there's, the process is a burden.
So partly Scott, we're going offtrack, but maybe the answer is not.
Maybe the answer is partly ai, butalso partly to look at, look given
a really hard look at the system andsay, is this processes fit for purpose?
Yeah, it's a good point and whatthe deployment of my Lot's Planning
(19:25):
Inquiries tool has found is thatpeople often have visions about what
they want to do with their property,but they don't know where to start.
A council staff member or even theright process to go through, and people
who have used the planning inquiriestool, they have an output that says
A permit is not likely required tobuild this shed on your residential
(19:49):
property, go to this stage instead.
And so our broad planning systemreally could do with A rethink about
the way that we communicate to people.
There is always going to be a needfor talented planners like yourself
and Jess to look at state shapingand federally important projects.
But for those minor activities, the, smallimprovements on people's properties that
(20:13):
can make their lives better and easier.
I feel like we could potentiallydo that a lot better.
I wonder whether there's any, association,I guess between the fact that a lot of
planning systems are, and I would say thisis probably across Australia and probably
in other countries as well, progressivelymoving more towards, codified systems
(20:37):
and the correlation between that andAI being released and AI being used and
utilized more frequently within planning.
Do you think we're going to see morecodification as a result of AI becoming.
A more frequent part of our work.
I don't know if it's a, Correlationor causation, where codification
(21:01):
provides greater certainty to peoplethat they'll receive an approval
based on, a 3D envelope or planningrules or different things like that.
But it certainly makes AI mucheasier to implement, doesn't it?
It does.
And interestingly, MyLight hasbeen doing some work with councils
(21:22):
across New South Wales whose DCP.
So their development controls, essentiallytheir codes are in old PDF documents.
Getting them into a format wherethey are machine readable is an
entirely different kettle of fish.
There has been some work here in Victoriarecently by the state government where
(21:42):
they have put in those 3D models withinthe new around train stations and
things like that, and I think there'smerit to what they're trying to achieve
Beginning with the endin mind, so to speak.
So they're looking in a precinctand saying, we would like to
see 1000 new houses in here.
But I do think that if we overcodify planning controls in order
(22:06):
to, create more confidence for.
The private sector or have machinereadable codes, it does risk taking
away some of the humanity, which isreally important to planning as well.
So this is my long-winded way ofsaying I think there is a balance
to be struck Jess, when it comes toplanning codes and being implemented.
(22:27):
I'm skeptical of those sort of precinctapproach that they're doing because they
often don't see that the fragmentationof prop parcels and all sorts of things.
But that's another topic, Scott.
Now
I thought you were gonna go into thequestion about how you incorporate The
experience of older professionals, Pete,
ah, we're getting to that, Jess, but Iwanted to ask because we will get to the
(22:50):
importance of seniority in the profession.
Scott, which is, Jess is coming aroundto that, I think, but, she's only about
32, so she doesn't quite understand yet.
But anyway, one, one thing Ihave problem with my chat, GPT.
Which I've nicknamed Sarah,Scott, is that she's really, she's
infected by the woke mind virus.
(23:10):
So every time I wanna put somethingin, she just gives me this,
just sometimes garbage back.
How do we ensure and your company'sinvolved in this, no doubt.
How do we ensure that the data used byour AI systems is reliable and unbiased?
It is probably best to answer thisquestion by lifting up the bonnet
(23:31):
on the my lot car potentially, ormy lot planning inquiries tool, but
it's a really important question.
And so how Mylo has structuredtheir planning inquiries tool
is in effectively three parts.
So the first, the foundationalwork for the tour is commercially
accessible large language models.
(23:53):
So they're trained by all of the companiesthat we hear about and have been making
millions and millions of dollars recently.
Companies like ai, open ai,Google and those types of things.
So the models are built from thefoundation there, and there's a
suite of those options available.
But secondly, from there, the MyLightdesigns and maintains lots of experts
(24:18):
to prompt the large language modelquestioning and also guidance based
on local planning controls andpolicies, what's in the surrounding
context, and most importantly,the inputs from users of the tool.
So the inputs which, techspeak calls those utterances.
(24:38):
They're inherently biased, andso that's important to say.
Users of the tool know whatthey want to know, and they'll
answer the questions accordingly.
But the removal of biases comethrough the expert prompts because
they've been solely trained onlocal planning schemes and policies.
So they ask questions, based on whata planner or someone assessing the
(25:01):
local planning scheme would know.
And the last part, the third part,but really important part is mylo
employs planners whose job it isto review the performance of these
outputs and determine alignment withthe local planning schemes, and really
importantly, the human expectationsof local planning departments.
(25:24):
It's a pretty new role and it suits.
Attention to details.
Talented sort of regulatory, real meatand potato type planners who can analyze
things down, to a level of detailto do with formatting in each word.
So when you piece it all together,when you look at it in action, It
(25:44):
seems simple, but I think those threeinputs, the large language model, the
prompts, the experts, and then thehuman planners are the ways in which the
data's relatively reliable and unbiased.
So there's still a rolefor you there, Pete?
Meat and potato planner?
That's me, Jess.
But I like curries as well, of course.
(26:04):
I find AI to be like a junior.
Work assistant and very good insome things, but it hallucinates
and that's the technical term.
Jess,
explain some of the emails thatI get from Pete late at night
And that's right to the term is rightScott but I wanted to ask you about, look,
there was a recent editor on the WallStreet Journal that said, AI's biggest
(26:27):
threat, young people who can't thinkand Right, and that goes on to the next
question, which Jess was prompting before.
How can the experienced and contextualunderstanding of older or more experienced
professionals strengthen the waywe use AI in planning, particularly
in crafting meaningful prompts?
(26:48):
Interpreting results and knowing what,when automation falls short and young
graduates might not have the same insight.
You are talking about meatand potatoes, but is that the
sort of thing you are doing?
So it's just if you're young and youare using ai, you might not have that
broader knowledge and understandingof what to look for and what to be
(27:08):
careful of and what it's missing.
What do you think, Scott?
Help us out.
What I've seen so far working indeveloping AI tools is I reckon there's
three buckets of planners when itcomes to engaging with the tools.
The younger career planners, somewould call them Gen Zs, they use
(27:28):
generative AI in their day to day.
So they're really enthusiastic aboutthe application of the tools, but may
not necessarily have the knowledgeto understand how they're deployed.
I find, Peter and Jess thatthey're mid-career planners.
Who are really concerned aboutthe impacts on their longevity in
(27:49):
the industry, and they've becomecomfortable in their processes and
don't necessarily want the disruption.
But what's really surprised me is thatlater career planners have been relatively
eager adopters of ai, and whether that'sbecause the industry has changed so much
across the world over the past 20, 30, 40years, whether that's because these folks.
(28:13):
Later career planners understandthe potential or see the benefits.
I think that knowledge that latercareer planners hold and those frames
that they bring is so important tobuilding the new tools and making
sure that they're well reasoned.
Not just for today's context, but basedon the context that career planners
have seen throughout their career.
(28:33):
I think it's so important that.
We take the experience that peoplehave and implement them through
the prompts in the tools as well.
And I think it's also reallyimportant that we don't rely on,
and accept AI tools as being perfecttoday because the ability to.
Change them.
The planning inquiries tool withMylo, we used it and implemented
(28:56):
it with Bayside, going back sortof six months ago and it was good.
Then it answered like it.
A planner with perhaps sixmonths worth of experience.
It used language that wasn't quiteright, but it did reason its way to the
right answer and it's amazing to see.
Six months later, it's a lot more mature.
It now feels a bit more like aplanner with five years experience.
(29:18):
It gives comprehensive answers,clear guidance and things like that.
And a lot of that comes from theexperienced planners who have
been training that tool over time.
We thank Victorian PlanningReports, our very first supporter.
If you want the A to Z of planningdecisions in Victoria and excellent
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(29:40):
Details on our website
we would like to thank Elison Properties,a terrific sponsor of the podcast,
great people, great properties.
Details on our website.
So Scott, obviously we've spokenabout the various ways in which
Mylo and other AI tools can, fillthat gap of, the work that perhaps
you and I don't want to necessarilybe doing on a day-to-day basis.
(30:02):
I would say that all real progress,whether it be scientific policy or
otherwise, comes from challengingassumptions, creating new knowledge
and discarding outdated rules.
How can we ensure that AI can be perhapsused or utilized as a tool for genuine
innovation in planning, rather than justa crutch that reinforces that status quo?
(30:25):
Where are the opportunities?
Do you see?
I think it's really important thathumans, like particularly people
earlier in their careers, don't losethe ability for critical thinking.
Jess and artificial intelligence can docritical thinking and it can reason its
way towards decisions, but, particularlyfor us in the planning industry, I think
(30:48):
it's so important that humans stay inthe loop and really are the ultimate.
Decision makers in those processes.
So a different way, like a more effectiveway perhaps could be to use AI to collect
lots of information from across theinternet and different things like that.
(31:09):
Ultimately people reallydo need to stay involved.
Some of the planners that I'vespoken to are effectively saying
to me, at what stage will AI starttaking decisions away from us?
And if you step people through theprocess of delegating decision-making
to an AI tool, it would be a verybrave politician who would do that.
(31:31):
But I also think that whereAI creates an opportunity.
For better decisions and betteroutcomes comes from the capacity.
Let's talk about that 90% capacity.
Suggest in that it might free up alot of our time, and perhaps planners
could work on things like encouragingactive participation from communities
(31:54):
and not just, focusing on processes.
I think the planning system morebroadly can use and deploy AI for
everything to be better and faster,but that doesn't necessarily mean that
we should just make more decisions.
I think what we can do asan industry is focus on.
Some of the things that we haven't hadtime to do, listening to communities
(32:15):
doing more negotiation, particularlyas public sector planners, rather
than just using AI as a way to, cutbudgets and deliver more output,
observation.
Sorry, Pete, an observation I'vemade over the last, probably.
15 years in particular is the,watering down I'd call it, of community
(32:37):
consultation in planning processes,particularly, just day-to-day
applications and those sorts of things.
It used to be that, you would be pulledinto the council chambers and made to
present about an application, put forwardyour case, and invariably you'd have.
Tomatoes and apples thrownat you from the audience.
It was never a very positive process.
(32:59):
I'm not complaining that is no longersomething that we have to do as a
day-to-day thing, but I'm just wondering,is there, or have you considered,
are there opportunities in improvingconsultation processes using ai?
I'm not sure that it would be seenpositively, but are there opportunities?
(33:22):
I'm not sure if, I think it wouldrequire a rethink from a human
planner's perspective, Jess.
And I think that there are waysin which, there is also the risk,
of AI being used on behalf ofthe community to write responses.
So I think there are the sortof broad risks there as well,
(33:42):
An AI tool present thingshowever you prompt it to.
And so there is scope to reach out toa broader segment of the community.
Realistically, you can hear feedback fromacross the world based on local issues,
really the architecture, talking aboutwho it's most important to hear from
and what you would like to know, it isreally important, and in some ways we
(34:05):
could use AI to free up capacity withinlocal offices Deploy humans to focus
on more, empathy and understanding andhearing from those local communities.
And that can be really relevantfor, assessing individual planning
applications, regulatory practice.
(34:25):
But I think that there's real potentialthere for greater participation in
policymaking and realistically, that's.
Where communities probably canand should be more involved in
shaping the vision of that future.
There is also, of course, potential forAI to interpret that feedback and take
that and start to write those policies.
(34:47):
But it's essential that humans stay atthe center of that at the same time.
So it's just eventhinking, a lot of those.
Engage in Victoria.
I'm sure all states have it, but inVictoria it's called Engage Victoria.
Those sorts of surveys and thingsthat are put out generally around,
substantial policy change ornew policy coming into effect.
(35:08):
Is there an opportunity for things like.
The little bots to sit on the sideof the screen so that the community
can say, does this affect me?
And put their address in and it couldactually spit out and say no, you are
actually outside of the study area.
And those sorts of things.
Are there opportunitiesthere that we could be using?
There's positives inthat type of approach.
Jess and I understand that there are some.
(35:30):
Public sector agencies who have alreadystarted to use those types of tools to
collect information from the public.
There's also the opportunity for reallylarge scale projects where there might be
thousands and thousands of submissions tocollect all of that data and start to pass
out themes and different things like that.
(35:52):
So that's a great opportunity for AI to.
understand what a broad segment of thecommunity is looking for, but that comes
with risks in and of itself as well.
There's nuance in people'ssubmissions and we all would have
seen them, those submissions toplanning applications over time.
What people write and what theymean might be different things, and
(36:15):
when you hear from them in person.
Actually what people areinterested in is a little bit
different to what they write down.
So I think it's important thatas AI is integrated into those
consultation processes, that theprompt engineering, the architecture
behind it, is still capable ofpicking up what people actually mean.
(36:35):
And I think that's where human planis, will be needed to make sure that
it, the outputs accurately represent.
All of the data,
Good words, Scott and Jess.
But from my experience, most plannersfind public consultation and nuisance
and they don't pay any attention to it.
But that's just my old cynical approach.
(36:57):
And I certainly don't trust big,state government surveys of people.
'cause all they want is more trees,more bike lanes and development.
Not near them.
But anyway, I'm sorry Jess.
I'm cynical, but Jess asked a verygood question, Scott, which is ai.
As a tool for genuine innovationin planning rather than a crutch
(37:17):
that reinforces the status quo.
So let's moonshot.
We like to do that.
AI to solve planning problemssuch as housing shortages, by
questioning the status quo.
I'll put it to you, that planningpolicies on housing have, at least
listeners in where we are in Victoria,have been the same since I started
as a graduate, so over 40 years.
(37:38):
Over that time, the housingproblems got worse and worse, but
planners clinging to or double downon those old policies, expecting
them to provide solutions, right?
And no one wants tochallenge the orthodoxy.
Can AI and some free thinkers use the dataavailable on AI to create alternatives
(38:08):
and maybe in a nonpolitical way,
So currently we assess newdevelopments in relative isolation.
Here in Victoria and probablythroughout the westernized world,
things like structure plans andstrategic planning, and they look
at things like building form design,setbacks, materiality, all of those.
(38:30):
I suppose planning crutches that havedeveloped over time and how a development
looks and how it sits in the urbanlandscape is really important, but it's
just a small part of how a new buildingwill operate once people move into it.
And we hear concerns all across the worldof balancing urban growth with capacity
(38:51):
constraints in enabling infrastructure.
Things likes public Tsystems, water, energy grid.
Here in Australia, at least workingas a regulatory planner, we turn
away from those broad scoops of dataand those really important parts
of, ensuring that new developmentssit within enabling infrastructure.
(39:13):
Here in Australia, homes getbuilt first and the infrastructure
often comes afterwards.
So one way that I like to think about.
AI being deployed is perhaps there's aworld in which an AI platform used by
state and local governments can consider,the enabling infrastructure around new
developments and have more responsivehousing policies, steering new development
(39:38):
into the right areas that are wellserviced by enabling infrastructure,
dynamic zoning and structure planningcould increase capacity once new
infrastructure is developed rather thannew planning policies being developed
with the hope that new infrastructurewill one day be delivered as well.
And as I was thinking about this in thelead up to the podcast, I thought of the
(40:02):
example of writing in a planning report.
In many of my assessments, I wouldwrite something like, there will be no
adverse impacts to the local sew networkfor approving a local development.
But something that would be, data drivenand something that AI could present to a
planner could look so much more dynamic.
(40:23):
And so in a future state planningreport, a planner could write
something like, approval of thisdevelopment would result in, say, a
2.5% increase in sewage discharge.
Within this Rack road sub block,this means that the local sewer
infrastructure is at 89% capacity.
Based on the likely demographicsof future residents, their fiber
(40:47):
consumption will be high, whichensures strong sewage motility.
Therefore, there will be no adverseimpacts to the local sewer network.
So you end up with the same outcome,but it's clearly a data-driven outcome.
Using AI data sets where all of thedata can be available to people all of
(41:08):
the time, we really can make better,more informed planning decisions.
It's just about getting accessto that data when you need it.
If you can trust the government.
Scott, many years ago Jess andI talked to our guests about.
The day when robots would make planningdecisions and we were laughed at.
Do you remember all that, Jess?
Absolutely.
with the tools we've got now, Scott,that you are developing in your firm, the
(41:32):
Tyrell Corporation, I think it's called.
But no, that's from Bladerunner.
That's right.
do you think there is a time,it's not so silly that AI
could make planning decisions.
What do you think?
So if we want to be, we are there now,and I don't know if we need Elon Musk
to develop the robots to make thosedecisions, but certainly generative
AI could make planning decisions.
(41:54):
But just because it can doesn'tnecessarily mean that it should either.
I talked a little bit earlier about.
Having to delegate decision making.
And I would've thought that most citycouncils across the world will be unlikely
to be comfortable with that anytime soon.
also, I think there is an importantpart there to say that humans are
(42:15):
unlikely to want to give up controlfor how their cities are built, but
it cycles back around really too.
One of the things that brought me onboard here at my light, the name of
the company that I work for, not TyrellCorporation, is that AI can assist humans
in making better, more informed decisions.
(42:36):
And so while robots could makeplanning decisions, I don't
necessarily think that's in.
Anyone's best interest necessarily.
Now before we get onto Podcast Extra,are you familiar with the Jevons paradox
that he was an economist in the 19thcentury who studied the use of coal and.
(42:57):
What he found, the paradox is thatthe more efficient steam engines
were, people would naturallythink there's less coal consumed.
But what actually happens is whenproducts are made cheaper and
more usable, more efficient, youget to use a lot more of them.
instead of.
Less steam engine use.
Steam engines became much morepractical for lots of things.
(43:19):
So there was more coal with thisai, with all this extra data and
all this extra intellectual grant,I'll call it that, will planning
processes get harder or easier, andthen we'll get onto Podcast Extra,
Access to more information,which ultimately is what
(43:39):
generative AI provides to people.
More information, more tools.
I think it's really important, Peter,that doesn't come at the cost of
understanding what I've been sayingto people and how I feel about it is
that fundamentally human emotions willbecome and remain really important.
So just because we have access to trovesof information and the ability to.
(44:05):
Write different things and use generativeAI for lots of different things.
Doesn't necessarily meanthat it's the right approach.
I think things like, understandingwill remain really important in
planning and things like that.
The.
Example that I often thinkof is my uncle and cousin.
My cousin is 19 years old and hewatches TikTok pathologically,
(44:29):
like he watches it all of the time.
So my uncle asks him a questionand he'll always know the answer.
He knows so much information, andmy uncle says to him, all right,
can you explain to me the logic?
Behind that information that you'vejust shared with me, and what he
started to find is his 19-year-old son,my cousin, he folds really quickly.
(44:52):
So he's got access to all of thesedifferent things through TikTok
and the algorithm that's beencatered to what he's looking for.
But that doesn't fundamentally meanthat he understands how the world works.
He doesn't have expertisein any one particular area.
I think thinking about theJEVONS paradox, that's really
important when it comes to ai.
(45:14):
We can become really powerfuldeploying these different tools
in planning processes or even indifferent parts of our lives, but
that doesn't fundamentally mean thatwe're, able to understand or actually
deliver high quality outputs as well.
The brain needs to be trained andthe brain needs to be exercised.
(45:35):
Scott Podcast, extra Culture Corner.
Are you a very interesting fellow?
You must have something great for ourlisteners, a recommendation, something
you've watched, seen, experienced,anything that might be of interest.
So this is more of ayarn than anything else.
Probably going back to.
Growing up in Northwestern Victoria,I think it's really important living
(45:57):
out in the country that you get goodat telling stories, telling yarns.
And my yarn has to do withgenerative AI as well, and.
my wife has signed off on mesharing this story as well.
For a bit of a joke recently, I,typed into my chat GPT prompt to draft
questions for my wife about, inquiringabout the state of our relationship.
And I thought it would be goodfor nothing else other than to
(46:21):
provoke an interesting conversation.
Have a couple of laughs.
I didn't tell her that I was gonna doit, and she was midway through doing
the dishes when I just started firingall these profound questions at her
about the state of our relationship.
Was interesting was, is that she answeredthe first two really enthusiastically,
and she was, gesticulating andtaking her wet hands out of the sink.
(46:44):
But then after I asked the thirdquestion, she turned around
and said, what's going on here?
This something's weird.
they're very smart.
They're very smart, Scott.
They know when you go out ofsomething a bit out of ordinary,
they know something's going on.
Fair enough, Jess.
Women are astute observers ofhuman, . Sorry, Scott, keep going.
(47:05):
How did you go?
You still together?
We absolutely are.
And what was interesting was I fessed upand explained, look, I did this as a bit
of a joke and we actually went throughthe last couple of questions together
and had some really good conversationsand a couple of laughs out of it,
What it did is it really illustratedways in which AI can be great, but
also in the ways in which being a humanis still really important as well.
(47:30):
I didn't absolutely rely on theoutput for my communication.
Once I was challenged by my wifeand she said, what's going on?
I was able to respond in a way in which.
I normally would, it didn't necessarilyreplace our human connection, but
that didn't necessarily mean thatthe content in there couldn't be
something that we connected over either.
(47:51):
Yeah, it was an interesting experienceand also taught me a couple of things.
I'll be sure to not slam the front doorquite so often when I leave the house.
'cause as it turns out, thatwas the answer to question four
about what's driving her crazy.
The Jess, that's notso Scott's experience.
I've had similar experience with,Sarah, my chat, GPT assistant and I
(48:12):
say, how can I be a better person?
Because you're constantly interacting.
And I also try and chat her up.
She says, please keepthis professional right.
I say, what color are your eyes, Sarah?
And she goes, I don't have eyes, but Isaid, look, just imagine you had eyes
anyway, Scott, enough about my, but I'veasked it, how can I improve relationships?
Or what am I doing wrong with this?
(48:33):
With psychology, and it's incrediblygood, Jess, about guidance
on how to be a better person
knows you well, it knows
everything about you.
maybe she listens to your podcastand she's taken that data and
she's worked down everythingthat she needs to know about you.
No, not everything, Jess.
So now Jess, you always haveexcellent podcast extras.
(48:56):
What is yours?
Mine is a Netflix show.
You may have watched it, Titan aboutthe Ocean Gate submersible disaster.
It's quite frightening.
As someone that's slightlyclaustrophobic, I can safely say I
will never ever go on a submarine,
so I highly recommend.
(49:17):
What's good about it, Jess?
It's, to be honest, Ididn't know a lot about it.
That happened what, 2020.
Three-ish I think it was.
I remember it being in the media abit and I just don't think I ever
really, read too much into it.
But it's just really interesting,around some of the moral dilemmas,
that the CEO, had and some ofthe decisions that were made.
(49:40):
It's very interesting.
Very sad as well.
But would highly recommend.
What about you, Pete?
Mine's not a book or anything, Jess.
As I'm doing a bit of land regeneration.
Scott, you're from the country, youunderstand all this, but I'm fixing
up some land that had pine plantationon it, and the pines were harvested
and then all the regrowth came backand no one ever looked after it.
(50:02):
So my task over the last.
Three or four years isto get into these pines.
So I'm constantly using a chainsaw.
And on the weekend, Jess, I wascutting and it was my second tank,
Scott, and sure enough, the chainsawhit my leg, but, just grazed it.
But fortunately, Jess, I'm allkitted up in my still outfit.
(50:24):
So I've got these things called chaps,which as soon as the chain look, I
look, it's not what you are thinking.
I'm not like, I'm not wearing cowboy.
Chaps going to nightclubs or things?
Oh, I've got a great imagein my head right now.
These
things have, Scott, you knowwhat I'm talking about, right?
So please excuse my co-host.
But these chaps, what they do is soon asthe chain hits the chaps, it locks up.
(50:47):
So it stops the chain goingthrough your leg, basically.
I feel like they'reprobably not called chaps.
Have you got the name wrong?
Scott?
Can you help me out here please?
Whether that's a colloquial nameor whether that's actually what
they're called, that's certainlywhat they got called in that I
thought I could, I thoughtI could rely on you, Scott.
I've been very easy on the questions.
I thought you'd be a good ally here.
(51:08):
But anyway, so Jess, the what?
I'm, anyway, so I just grazed it.
It cut the chaps.
If I had have been wearing jeansor something like that, it would've
gone through, it would've hit the.
Flash and stuff, it was near my knee.
So what I'm suggesting to people is ifyou've got safety gear, doesn't matter
whether you power tools, whatever.
Always wear glasses when you areusing your chainsaw and a helmet
(51:30):
of course and everything else.
But always look after safety issuesbecause I had a very close encounter.
It could have been pretty uglyout in the bush there by myself.
So Scott, what do you thinkof my, so we'll summarize
your, summarize your recommendation as.
Wear more chaps,
especially the highly visibleones with still written on them.
(51:52):
Jess, and I'm not going tocowboy bars wearing them.
All right.
Or, alright.
Anyway, Scott, we didn't, I didn't thinkwe'd end on that note, but, thank you for
being a wonderful guest for our podcast.
Anything else you'd liketo finally say, Jess?
No, I'm okay.
I'm still laughing about chaps over here.
Alright, Scott, thank you Scott,though it's been a really interesting
(52:13):
conversation and I think it's verytimely, given where we are in the
industry and where we're heading.
So very interesting.
Thanks very much for your time.
Oh, great.
We've got greatlyappreciate the opportunity.
Thank you both.
And I really enjoy listeningto the podcast, so it's
still delightful to be on.
You're an excellent guest.
And one final thing, Scott, doyou think Skynet is gonna get us.
(52:35):
Not in, not anytime soon,but, I think Elon Musk is the
manifestation of Skynet in 2025 so,
oh, he's a hero of mine.
Thanks.
Thanks for listening.
If you would like to hear more of ourpodcasts, hit the follow button on Spotify
or the like button on SoundCloud orthe subscribe button in Apple podcasts.
(52:56):
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the scenes footage of our podcastsand to get the latest on upcoming
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