July 26, 2025 • 47 mins
In this episode of PlanningXchange, we speak with Peter O’Leary, whose planning career spans an impressive five decades.
Peter began his journey in the mid-1970s as a cadet in local government, rising through the ranks to senior management. He later moved into the private sector before serving over 11 years as a Tribunal Member at VCAT, where he presided over a broad range of planning matters. Following his time on the bench, Peter returned to consultancy, specialising in mediation and dispute resolution.
We explore each phase of his remarkable career, drawing on his insights into what makes an effective advocate, a fair and capable decision-maker, and a resilient professional. Peter offers thoughtful guidance for planners at every stage—whether just starting out, navigating mid-career, or reflecting on a lifetime of service.
Few reach the milestone of 50 years in the profession—fewer still with such breadth of experience. This is a generous and candid conversation with a true planner’s planner.
In Culture Corner / Podcast Extra:
- Peter recommends The Incredible Life of Hubert Wilkins: Australia’s Greatest Explorer – Wikipedia – and the documentary Maya and the Wave – mayaandthewave.com.
- Jess suggests attending professional conferences for inspiration and renewal.
- Pete offers a couple of classic comforts: hot water bottles on cold nights and the contemplative beauty of Evensong at Church.
Podcast released 26 July 2025
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Jess Noonan (00:00):
This podcast is supported by VPLA.
Victorian PlanningEnvironmental Law Association.
Welcome to the Planning Exchangewhere we interview built environment
professionals who are doinginteresting work beyond the ordinary.
I'm Jess Noonan and I'm joinedby my colleague Peter Jewell.
Speaker (00:16):
today we're speaking with Peter O'Leary.
Peter is a senior member of theVictorian Planning Community.
He started as a C cadet plannerin 1974 with the City of St.
Kilda, and then went to RMIT tobecome a qualified town planner.
Following that, he worked with thecity of Sandham, the city of Oakley,
and a number of other councils.
When council amalgamations occurred inthe nineties, he left local government
(00:38):
to join a private consultancy.
He later became a full-time memberof vcat, which is also known as
the Victorian Civil AdministrativeTribunal here in Victoria.
And then in recent years, he leftFCA to become a private mediator
and consultant with his own firm.
Welcome to the show, Pete.
Speaker 2 (00:55):
Thank you.
Speaker (00:57):
Now to keep things simple tonight.
Peter Jewel, you arePete and Peter O'Leary.
You are Pete.
Okay.
Speaker 3 (01:04):
Thanks Jess.
Thanks.
Appreciate that.
Speaker (01:07):
Over to you Pete.
Speaker 3 (01:08):
Alright.
Looking back, Pete, over fivedecades, you've been involved
in planning since 1974.
When you think back to those early days,what kind of profession did you walk into?
What did planning mean back then andhow did it feel stepping into the
field at such a relatively early age?
Speaker 2 (01:30):
Oh I was just a babe in the woods.
I had the good fortune ofhaving a brother-in-law who
was a planner and an architect.
So he, when I was about sevenand a half, encouraged me to look
for A profession in planning.
fortunately I applied for a cadetship.
(01:50):
I had been ill that year at school,so I still passed, but I was not
going to get the marks that Iwanted to get to other professions,
Started work the very 2nd of January.
I was just like a sponge for knowledge.
I was just open, eager, enthusiastic.
I had a boss who hadqualifications in planning.
(02:10):
he gave me wonderful mentoring,and if I ever said I was bored.
The next thing he would give me somany extra jobs to do that encouraged
my participation in planning.
I worked under him.
He threw me in at the deep end ina number of areas I didn't have the
qualifications, but I was alreadydoing appeal tribunal, hearings.
(02:32):
By the time I was 20, I was doingprosecutions against illegal
brothels and other things.
Yeah, just representing the counsel at avery young age, simply because, I was the
only one in the planning department, thedoors were open to me, and I was naive,
but I think I learned quite quickly I seethat man, he's still alive now and I have
(02:53):
lunch with him and we have some wonderfuldiscussions, about day's gone past.
Speaker (02:59):
And Pete was the pathway of a cadetship back
then, did that come out of the.
Is that the reason whyCadetships was set up?
Speaker 2 (03:07):
Ab, absolutely.
There was a severe shortage of certainlyqualified planners, and it was ever
more obvious in local government.
What was happening was local governmentwas being given more and more planning
powers, more statutory players.
But the profession in those daysthat you would call planning
(03:27):
officers were largely unqualified.
Often they'd come from other.
Professions such as beingbuilding surveyors or building
inspectors or, admin officers.
And they had just grown into the job.
So there was a lot of, skill shortage andthat's where people like me were given
these cadetships and good mentoring.
(03:49):
And that was the way, itwas evolving in those.
Early to mid seventies.
It was really quite striking to seea number of those people like myself,
given these opportunities and, thriving.
Speaker 3 (04:02):
And the cadet experience, Pete learning by doing so, can you recall
your raw emotions of those early days?
I think you mentioned to methere was a sense of optimism.
Yes, absolutely.
And you've said that on the jobtraining, you were mentored,
you weren't just abandoned, butyou were expected to have a go.
Speaker 2 (04:23):
sometimes my boss would take me to tribunal hearings or take me to
meetings with these big senior planners atsay, Melbourne City Council or whatever.
And he would all then say tome on the way back now, don't
be intimidated by these people.
You, if you'll learn and you'll know thatit's knowledge is gonna get you there.
So don't be intimidated by older states.
(04:44):
Statesman in, in the professiondon't be, influenced by that.
So yeah, he was, there was alot of encouragement from him.
Yes, it was tough.
It was harder for me for studying andI'd had a disrupted studying career.
And I also was distracted by.
Girls and alcohol andthose sort of things.
And that's why I wentback to school full time.
Speaker (05:03):
And how did you find balancing study and work during that period?
Speaker 2 (05:07):
I struggled and my brother-in-law who became a lecturer in
planning had to give me a talking to,just start focusing more on my studies.
And I did, but it was just, therewas a period where it was struggle.
But I was still workingthose first six years.
I was still working very hard.
And I suppose in some ways, becausewe were so busy, I focused a bit more
(05:28):
on my work than I did on my studies.
Speaker (05:30):
What was the balance that you were doing?
Was it three days a weekor two days a week, or
Speaker 2 (05:36):
five day a week work.
Speaker (05:37):
Oh wow.
Speaker 2 (05:38):
Studied, two nights a week.
Speaker (05:41):
Oh, okay.
Speaker 2 (05:42):
And so then weekends, you really had to put aside a
Saturday or a Sunday afternoon.
I was sharing houses with matesand they were all out having a
good time on one of those days.
And I'll be insidetrying to study and get.
Assignments done.
Speaker (05:56):
So just moving on to council planning at South Melbourne.
Yep.
So there you were working in a verypolitically engaged municipality with
very strong community voices and Yep.
It's probably quite similar todayin the city of Port Phillip.
Speaker 4 (06:10):
Yep.
Speaker (06:10):
What was it like navigating that environment?
Was that your first.
Real experience with, dealing withthe community in that sort of setting.
And how did you manage thechallenge of being helpful to
applicants while still holding firmto planning policy and controls?
Speaker 2 (06:24):
Yeah, it wasn't my first SANDHAM gave me that introduction.
at South Melbourne it was a lot more,
confrontational.
There was basically three groups.
You had people of more of aliberal, party type atmosphere.
I'd call 'em, And then there was labor.
(06:45):
Traditional labor type people.
And then there was a lot of independence.
when I started the independence hadgot control and my first day there
I started at eight in the morningor eight 30 in the morning, and I
finished my first day about midnight.
And it was just.
Beyond my, I had neverseen anything like it.
(07:06):
It was highly confrontational, withinthe council chamber and the first three
years it was this constant battle to.
Balance all the things that you hadto do and deal with the politics
you had to deal with, the interestgroups you had to deal with.
Speaker 3 (07:26):
I might just cut in there.
And just for our listeners' sake, whodon't know Melbourne, but, south Melbourne
is an inner city, suburb in Melbourne.
it was a traditional workingclass area with very refined
but also at different stages.
It had a lot of wealth and a lot ofbig buildings, but traditionally a
working class, inner city, workingclass suburb by the time the late.
(07:48):
Seventies and eighties, there was anawful lot of gentrification going on.
And when Pete refers to liberals,he means for people overseas
conservatives and the labor peopleare, typically working class left wing.
But the third group, Pete was.
the gentrification push,
Speaker 2 (08:06):
no, these were, no, there was a, there were groups of people
who were unaligned to either politicalgroups and they comprised either
far left wing or far right wing, andbelieve it or not, formed an alliance.
So it was really quite complex.
And the other thing we say isthat a lot was going on there.
(08:27):
There was, because it was in thisarea going through, gentrification,
we had a lot of heritage controlshad been introduced and that
attracted a lot of attention.
But then there was also the SouthBank area of, we call it South
Bank, and it was the southernSouth Bank of the Yarra River.
And that was in our planning control.
(08:50):
But the government had also taken partcontrol over it because there was an
area of, it had been an industrialarea, employing up to 40, 50,000 people
and the manufacturing industry had.
Basically been replaced and the governmentwished to sell off a lot of the land,
and allow redevelopment of this area.
(09:12):
The council were pushing for moreresidential, so there was this complex,
set of both strategic planning.
That was a brilliant piece of strategicplanning that was taking place.
But on the other hand, the councils werealso focused on the heritage protection
of other large parts of the municipality.
So it was a busy, complex.
(09:33):
It was hard work.
And then amongst it, there wasa lot of political in fighting.
Speaker 3 (09:38):
all those factors, the boiling away must have
taught you an awful lot how to.
Walk on the balancing wire, doyour job, but also probably get
frustrated at times with membersof the community and councilors.
But you had to be professional throughout.
Speaker 2 (09:59):
Yeah.
Most members of the community.
enjoyed the engagement with thecommunity, so that was not a problem,
but it was just a demanding job.
I had a very good boss.
Who supported me and I didn't takesides in the political debates,
irrespective of who was in power.
I was the servant.
I think that was a thing wherea lot of us didn't get involved
(10:20):
in the political debates.
And I think that often saved yourcareer because you didn't get
drawn into false sides on things.
So that balancing, yeah, theobjective was to try and, yeah.
Provide fair and unfettered,recommendations and advice
to council on various things.
A lot of the time we found wecould work on the south banks and
(10:43):
the big projects without being.
Hindered much because the councilorswere usually focusing on the smaller
things like, renovations of one or twostory houses in these heritage precincts
that, believe it or not, the most of thefights were about that, usually in, in
the council rather than the big projectslike Southbank or some Killer Roads.
(11:05):
And Kilda Road was a, is a big boulevardin Melbourne and we had a lot of.
High-rise office buildings.
When I say high-rise, you call'em mid-rise office buildings now.
And so you, there was justa lot going on all the time.
Speaker (11:20):
I guess they probably back then as well, councilors were probably
less engaged with that kind of work.
they were more engaged with the thingsthat they were probably hearing about
on a day-to-day basis and gettingphone calls about from the community
as opposed to understanding theins and outs of a strategic plan.
Speaker 2 (11:36):
Correct.
That's right.
Yeah.
They, mainly of them did, they justdidn't understand the proportion
or the size of the projects orthe elements that went into the
buildings or, urban design issues.
They.
They were saying, look, we wantmore residential in that area.
They give a general direction, but therewasn't the interference in those sort of
issues, but there were in other issues.
Yeah.
(11:56):
Like when the government decided toclose down the ru, the st kilda rail line
in the port Melbourne rail line therewere almighty hell fights because they
didn't want to lose their train service.
History has shown us that the governmentwill, were not just, we're actually
gonna to replace it with, light rail,and you now have a service that is just
(12:18):
a brilliant service that in peak hour,
Every three minutes, a tram comes along.
It's just a brilliant service.
But it, we could see what was happeningand you had to try and, work within the
structure that some councils didn't,they didn't see beyond the immediate
fight rather than we saw the long-termbenefit of things taking place.
Speaker (12:40):
And then Pete, so after that you left council and you
went into private consultancy.
What was that shift like?
Was it a relief to move intothat environment, a challenge or?
What had happened,
Speaker 2 (12:51):
Amalgamations had taken place and I was earmarked and I got
a role in charge of planning for.
statutory planning at, the city ofPort Phillip, within six months I
found that it was more managementrather than true planning.
a job came up in working for anengineering and surveying company,
(13:11):
and I. went for it and I foundit was, enlightening to go there.
The pressures were different, thework arrangements were different.
And I basically could run my own minipractice within The organization.
And I had some, it was a fairlyconservative engineering firm.
(13:32):
It had gone through somerestructuring too, well after
local government restructuring.
This was easy peasy forme and, I just enjoyed it.
They taught me how to work inbusiness, what the cost of work was,
just fundamental business thingsabout, hourly rates, what the cost
of business is, what you have todo to earn, money and all this.
(13:54):
And within a couple of years, I wasappointed a director, I was a partner,
and, things were, it was just thiswonderful learning curve for me.
And I felt, a lot more freedom, As aplanner, and as a person it was wonderful
to be able get out there and, do some realplanning and meet with clients and achieve
(14:14):
things a lot easier and a lot quicker.
So yeah, it was enlightening.
Speaker 3 (14:19):
So Pete and Jess we're moving through the decades.
What sort of year is this pa?So we talk about 19 96, 9 7.
Yeah.
Around there.
Yep.
Speaker 2 (14:28):
yep.
Speaker 3 (14:29):
Great.
Speaker 2 (14:29):
period for me.
And then 1998, that's when I was.
I got a phone call inviting me to, if Iwas interested in becoming a VCAT member.
I thought I was gonna go there for threeyears and get some experience and move on.
But as it turned,
Speaker 3 (14:45):
excuse me, just for a moment, but for our listeners.
Everywhere but Victoria, we should explainwhat VCAT is, which is the Victorian
Civil and Administrative Tribunal.
It is the body listeners that.
Considers disputes.
If a permit applicant is rejectedby a council with its, DA or
planning application, they have theability to take the matter to VCAT
(15:08):
for, to a higher body for review.
Likewise, objectors can take on approvalsand there's any number of disputes
that can end up at vcat, but it hurt.
Here's a wide range ofdisputes, so the members of the.
Tribunal, we call 'em, independentin every sense, but they work for
basically essentially the Departmentof Justice and their ruling stands.
(15:33):
It's very rare for one of their rulingsto be taken up to the Supreme Court,
but It's meant to be accessible,but still with all the protocols
you would expect in a tribunal.
Am I far off, Pete?
Speaker 2 (15:46):
Pretty close.
That's right.
It was a super tribunal.
It was amalgamated in 1998, Acollection of, civil claims domestic.
Building, and planning disputes.
You were appointed as a memberin those days for five years,
later it was seven years.
And, yes, you ran the hearing, youmade the decision, irrespective of,
(16:07):
and sometimes you sat with othermembers, you had all the powers
of a council to make the decisionand some more powers of inquiry.
And even the planning members wereallowed to make legal decisions if
the parties agreed to us doing so.
So it is, yeah, it was,
Speaker 4 (16:27):
I
Speaker 2 (16:27):
had, I'd appeared there many men or earlier versions of it many times.
So I knew how it operated.
And I got that opportunity.
I went there.
Once again, it was an interestingtime because the state government had.
Basically created this new super tribunal.
From my point of view, it was a, anotheropening, of, a new era in, what we call
review, reviewing, decisions of council.
(16:49):
I enjoyed it.
And you got, I got togo all over Victoria.
I wasn't just stuck in, in Melbourne.
I got to go and deal with allsorts of other different types of
planning disputes, which I enjoyed.
I loved the travel, I loved,basically going all throughout
Victoria and seeing the wider.
Part of the state.
Speaker (17:07):
And how many years were you at VA? About 10,
Speaker 2 (17:09):
11 and a half years.
Speaker (17:11):
One and a half.
Speaker 2 (17:11):
I quit in the end because I just, it wasn't so
much, I didn't like the work.
It was just, I found, some aspects of itstifling to your own personal lifestyle
or my ambitions, and I decided, no, look.
So I'll go back.
To private practice as a planner.
I got to my, I was in my mid fifties.
I'm thinking what am I going to do?
I could stick around this job forthe next 15 years or I could, I just
(17:35):
thought, oh no, I just wanted togo back to plan planning basically.
'cause I enjoyed.
Speaker 3 (17:40):
Pete, this is terrific because you've listeners, we are
going through the five decades.
We've discovered Pete's early cadetyears, his years in local government.
Then as a consultant now he'shad 11 years at the tribunal.
In that role, he's, had peoplemaking submissions to him.
He's heard expert witnessespresent evidence to him.
(18:04):
So you are in a good position.
You've got lots of experience.
Experience.
What makes, in your view a good advocateat not just vcat, we've got lots of
other people who have to appear inother tribunals around the world.
What makes a good advocate?
Speaker 2 (18:19):
I, to me, the, person who is basically knows their subject
Speaker 4 (18:26):
e
Speaker 2 (18:26):
essentially, they are well prepared.
In their arguments.
They're well prepared on their issues.
And a good advocate will know whattheir opposition is going to do
and say, and be prepared for that,and have arguments to counter them.
(18:47):
There was a number of very good seniorcouncil that I saw and one in particular,
that used to frighten others, but not me.
But he was, I always thought itwas not so much what he said, but
what he had, what he didn't say.
He focused on the primaryissues very succinctly, and very
(19:08):
pointedly and then didn't stray.
Into the peripheral, a number of advocatesare very succinct, very pointed and know
their arguments and the other side'sarguments and how they can counter them.
Speaker 3 (19:21):
Yeah, I was gonna ask, just I'll jump in there.
Jess a, a good advocate thatsee if you agree with this.
Not every scheme is perfect.
Very rare.
You'll never have a perfect scheme.
So a lot of schemes.
A good advocate from my experience,Pete is acknowledges any shortcomings
in this scheme and justifies them orsays why they're not a major factor.
(19:46):
Would you agree with that
Speaker 2 (19:47):
part of that?
Yes, I agree.
Not so much the schemes as in planningschemes, but even the arguments two and
four against the project that they're.
Advocating for, they will know thestrengths of their arguments and be
confident with them and won't usewhat I call the scatter gun approach
and put up 10 different argumentsand just, confuse the advocate.
(20:11):
And a good advocate will actuallymake it easy for the tribunal member.
To make a decision in their favor,that they'll have the right words
or the right arguments to makethat decision all that much easier.
It's almost an easy answer for them.
that's what the good advocate will do.
(20:32):
They'll put the words in theirmouth or on their paper for them and
make it easy for them, and dispelthe arguments against quickly too.
Speaker (20:42):
Over your time at vcat, which was, as you said, 11 and a
half years, did you see the systembecome, more complex for advocates?
Speaker 2 (20:52):
the system itself, the planning system in Victoria during that
time did become a lot more complex.
There was a lot more policy input.
There was a lot more opportunitiesfor councils to, control things that
they desired, and there was almostan explosion in disputes people's
(21:18):
knowledge or ability to lodge.
Applications to the tribunal to seeka review of a council's decision.
So you had a combination of thingshappening, throughout our planning system
and the amount of policy really just grew.
Exponentially since the 19mid, early to mid 1990s.
(21:41):
It just was quite staggering.
Now some of it is very good and I cansee now where there's moves afoot by the
government to reduce the words, reducethe policies, and to make them far more
focused rather than, what could you say?
(22:03):
Esoteric.
And I think we, we need it becausethis, our system has basically
has got clogged with a lot of,unnecessary words and detail.
Speaker (22:14):
Do you think as well though, that has resulted in less planners
being advocates and advocates now?
For the most part being employers.
Yes.
Yes.
I personally don't hear of manyplanners being advocates anymore.
Speaker 2 (22:27):
No.
There's a lot less, and to thelawyer's credits a number of lawyers
a lot more, became a lot more.
Educated in planning policy andso forth, but I think a lot of
planners themselves didn't like that.
The cut and thrust of thebattleground of the advocacy.
Speaker (22:50):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (22:50):
There are still some planners that were doing and myself included, and I
can see that there are changes afoot wherethe planners are, being isolated out.
Or they might find it, easierto go and do other things.
Speaker (23:05):
Do you think that's a shame in terms of learning experience for
young planners coming in the industry?
Yes.
No longer necessarilygetting that experience?
Speaker 2 (23:13):
Absolutely, yes.
I, because one of the things I usedto like with my staff when I was
in local government was sending mystaff in to defend their decisions.
And I found that, look, sometimes theytook on, there was some hard stuff
I call it was character building.
Now that's, I'm being a bit humorousabout that, but in reality, a lot of
(23:36):
them, it broadened their understandingof the disputes of how to fight the
disputes, what to look for, and Ithink gave them a better balance.
In understanding planning at abroader level rather than just their
own myopic view of that particularsuburb or that municipality.
Speaker (23:55):
And it's accountability, right?
As you say, it's
Speaker 2 (23:57):
accountability.
That's right.
It's accountability.
That's right.
And we even had at the council,my job description and we
had, what would you call it?
Accountability.
We had to achieve 85% of success in ourrecommendations being accepted by V vcat
or the pre previous name of the tribunal.
(24:17):
That was basically just the challengeto us, to keep us working hard.
And that was, the boss was very insightfulin terms of encouraging us like that.
Speaker 3 (24:26):
You would've made a tough football coach, Pete.
But, but Jess, there are stillvery, some very good planning
advocates at the tribunal.
If you had come down the otherFriday, you could have seen me,
down there present a brilliant case.
You'd agree with that, Pete?
You saw me, on display?
Speaker 2 (24:41):
It was a, no, it was good.
No, it was good to see.
And no, it's being
Speaker (24:45):
polite,
Speaker 2 (24:46):
I'll be perfectly honest, I think you're witness Newey subject,
. Speaker 3: I'm always grateful to people who can carry me, Pete.
I've got a, yeah, with the planning profession too
often the planners who go in asexpert witnesses, some of them.
Come across as basically defacto,advocates for their clients, whereas
(25:06):
the barrister or the solicitor shouldbe the advocate and the planner,
if they're coming in as an expertwitness, should be a lot more,
circumspect about their opinions.
Now that's a personal view, but I thinkall too often, I don't think, and I
think I've seen a number of planners whohave not helped the planning profession.
Speaker 3 (25:27):
no, I get it.
I get it now.
Pete, leaving the, no.
I was gonna ask you on, just onyour final bit, on your, on our span
across the years, what makes, inyour opinion, a good tribunal member?
And again, we've got listenersall around the world.
There's lots of judges or,commissioners or something from you.
Were close up to it.
(25:49):
What makes a good tribunal member?
Or judge or whatever.
Speaker 2 (25:52):
Firstly, they've gotta be a good listener.
They've gotta be independent and be seen.
To be independent, they need tobe well prepared and know the
subject that they're dealing with.
That is, they've gotta do their homework,they've gotta have read the full file
(26:13):
and documents and be right on top of it.
From the get go.
And I think I've seen some that arevery good at it and know their subject
very well, and I've seen some thatare a bit lazy and don't necessarily
do the homework that they should inpreparation for an appeal hearing.
That's my opinion is what makes 'em good.
(26:34):
They should have also a good broad,spectrum of planning expertise.
And I think.
In my opinion, all too often I wonderwhat questions sometimes some of the
members are asked when they're at aninterview, but that's because, and I
think that's a fault of the system asthat sometimes they don't even know what
(26:56):
they want or what they're thinking of.
And then a tribunal member inthe planning list has to also
often provide a Written decision.
Their writing skills are paramount.
They've got to have a good understandingand I'll call myself out on that.
That was always thehardest part of my job.
(27:17):
I enjoyed the hearings.
I enjoyed the running ofhearings and I enjoyed that and
I enjoyed making the decision.
But it was explaining, thedecision was the hard part for me.
You not, being concisein my decision writing.
And there were some people Iwas highly jealous of 'cause
they just were wonderful.
Authors.
Peter Jewell (27:39):
We thank Victorian Planning Reports, our very first supporter.
If you want the A to Z of planningdecisions in Victoria and excellent
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Details on our website.
We would like to thank Elison Properties,a terrific sponsor of the podcast,
great people, great properties.
Details on our website.
Speaker (28:00):
Now, your last era, which was leaving the tribunal and going back into
an advocacy role, that must have beenvery strange, having gone from vcat,
going back to submitting applicationsagain, dealing with council directly,
dealing with the community again.
What was that like?
Was it strange or did you enjoy it?
Speaker 2 (28:24):
No it wasn't.
Firstly, there's a rule at VCATis you can't go back and appear
as an advocate for two years.
So I couldn't automatically just go backand be on the other side of the table.
There was a two year no Gaza.
I had done a fair bit of, I'd done somestudies when I was at VA on tribunal
law, but I'd also done, and that helpedme in advocacy and as a tribunal member.
(28:48):
But I'd also had, did a fair bit onmediation and, when I left a new judge,
the judge left and a new judge came in.
Thankfully, and he asked me one tocome back as a senior member and I
said, no, but secondly he said, wouldyou like to be a private mediator?
(29:10):
So I was able to work as a privatemediator and that was this just I,
I enjoyed mediation, but becominga private mediator was just
opened up a number of other doors
All different clients for councils,and sometimes councils would engage
me to run public hearings or publicmeetings, consultations where there
(29:32):
are planning disputes, anything from.
Five, 10 people to 80 people in aroom, and they get me because I had,
I could, I suppose command a bit moreauthority because they'd say I was
a tribunal member and I was this andthat, and I knew the planning system.
And I'd go and I'd say my roleis not to make the decision.
(29:52):
I'm not making a decision today.
I'm here to improve the quality of the.
Dispute so you people can understandbetter and ask questions and do that.
a number of councils engaged me todo that, and I just loved doing it.
It was good.
And also the private mediation sideof it was good because I had so much
contact with all the participants.
(30:14):
I didn't write up the final decision, oneof the tribunal members would do that.
I didn't mind that.
It was easy, all easy.
Done.
Speaker (30:21):
Do you think in the current, state of play in our
industry, do you think mediationis a bit of a missed opportunity?
Speaker 2 (30:27):
Yes, I think it is.
But the problem is, why VCAT is moresuccessful is it's basically the
last chance or the last opportunitybefore you go to a hearing.
Whereas a lot of people live therein a private mediation that they may
not feel the same need to do that.
But I think there are opportunities for.
(30:50):
greater interaction and that the councilscan play a role, not necessarily on
every planning dispute, but on the biggerplanning disputes where the community
might get a b in its bonnet and notunderstand the full, who's making the
decision and what the decision really.
Means, and I think that's where amediator or a private consultant
(31:13):
can come in and help the partiesto understand the dispute.
And I recently, one of theregional councils has got me
back doing these things again.
And I really enjoy it.
You go out and you meet these peopleand you can sit down with them, You
are engaging with them, but alsohelping them to understand the dispute.
And it's also helping the councilofficer to write the report because
(31:38):
the issues are better focused,without rank or, so I enjoy it.
And they were the things that Ipartly learned through the tribunal.
And then I did further mediationstudies and I enjoyed it.
The trouble is I realizedI was not gonna make.
Full money on it.
I still needed to do my advocacyand a number of councils got
(31:58):
me back to do, got me to do meto act for 'em at the tribunal.
And I did, a lot for a number of councils.
I quite enjoy doing it.
there's a bit more freedom.
I can talk to the, objectivesand all those sort of things.
Speaker 3 (32:13):
I wanted to ask you before we get on to reflections and guidance.
Looking back, you've been in the hotseat in local government, you've been,
a consultant dealing with clientsand other lots of other people.
You've been sitting onthe tribunal for 11 years.
You've done the private mediation.
You must get great skills readingpeople and seeing where reading
(32:39):
people's emotions and theirstrengths and their vulnerabilities
and trying to get together.
People who sometimes can'tstand each other and try to get.
Find a middle ground.
So being able to read people mustit's an ongoing job, isn't it?
That, that process.
(33:00):
Yeah.
And give us an answer to that and thenwe'll get onto reflections and go.
Very true.
Speaker 2 (33:03):
That, and it was even after I left VCAT and I
did some more preview mediation.
There's one fellow, and he could.
He was teaching us to basically, we couldsit in a, he can sit in a room, no tables,
no nothing, and just sit and converse.
And he helps the parties to draw outthe emotions so that the other party
(33:25):
experiences that other person's emotions.
And so it becomes quite a, an youcan see the whole dynamic of that
encounter or meeting change over time.
And there are skills and youlearn by being a mediator.
You have the moment, you learn to know,you find the moment and we've got there.
(33:46):
You're going to get there because youcan see how we've moved from positions.
You stink.
You're a piece of shit To actually,issues and working through the issues and
as soon as they collect onto the issuesand how it can be, what they want and
are able to express themselves, doesn'tmatter what their level of education is.
(34:07):
But once they can start toexpress themselves, you can
recognize that and then.
Bring the parties together.
And that's one of the rewarding things.
And it's a very different skillthan being a tribunal member.
it was one of those wonderful things.
I've able to see some reallygood settlements by people.
That sometimes we're in alot of pain, a lot of mental
(34:29):
anguish and, they're able to.
Come to terms and come to settlements.
It was a wonderful thing to see.
Speaker 3 (34:39):
And Pete with workplaces.
When I started in localgovernment, it was a lot of fun.
We'd work and then five o'clock Iwould come around and we would be
down the boozer and carrying on.
And there was a lot of laughterin the workplace and there was
just a lot of mucking around.
A lot of, there was I don't knowwhether it was, not gallow's humor,
but you know how you've gottahave humor to make things work.
(35:01):
There's time for.
Time for discipline,there's time for that.
But in terms of group dynamics, you'vegotta have a laugh stuff, right?
But when I go to councils thesedays, they seem so uptight,
they just seem so, I don't know.
Maybe we, were a bit morerebellious or something.
What do you think is there,do you think that's, though
(35:22):
partly places become less fun?
Speaker (35:24):
Do you think that's also partly though because of the additional
stress that councils are now under?
It seems as though the stresslevels at councils are far higher
than perhaps what they were.
Speaker 4 (35:35):
Yep.
Speaker (35:35):
And that's the common theme that comes through
Speaker 2 (35:39):
Not completely, but I think the issues are is they've gotta have this
public face, they're being taught to,
Speaker (35:45):
yeah.
Speaker 2 (35:45):
Have the public face.
And no commitment and allthose sorts of things.
Yeah.
It's a public base where they're,and they're quite often they're
process oriented to get things done.
Yes.
And they can't let their guards down.
And the same thing happened atvcat, and yet behind the scenes
you often did get some very.
Very, the, the pink room at vcatwhen I was there, there was often
(36:10):
some very funny moments, andsome very interesting exchanges.
. I still think it, there arethese opportunities to let your
hair down and have a good timeand all those sort of things.
But the public, I think there's so
Speaker 3 (36:22):
much more serious too, Pete, I think the young people are just walk.
Down.
You talked about a sense of optimismin the seventies, and I remember that
optimism, but there seems to be thisweighing down on people of all sorts
of, problems that maybe we shrugged off.
Speaker 2 (36:39):
I think it's just a, look, I've seen it both at vcat.
I've seen that councils and I'veseen it out in private practice.
But I think, see that's one of the thingswhy I left VCAT was 'cause I wanted to
reengage with a lot of my profession.
And, you can go, you get out toplanning functions, you can go to social
functions and you could engage withyour, colleagues and have a good time.
(37:04):
Big, have a drink and abig dinner and so forth.
but often it became quite constrainedand the tribunal members would
be looking over their shoulder.
Who have I got appearing before me?
I can't go near them.
And you gotta the stage whereyou often distance yourself.
And some members didn't,just wouldn't even engage.
And there was even some judgesthat used to give directions that
(37:26):
we could not go to any Christmasfunctions of any consultants.
We weren't allowed to go to any companies.
And I still went back to one of myprevious company because, any job
that they're involved with, theyknew I wouldn't sit on anyway, but
I'd been a director of that companyand I got on very well with those
professionals and they respected that.
(37:47):
there was a lot of false.
They wanted to make things lookso dedicated because some members
of the public thought that wewere on the developer's side, or
we were the developer's friend.
And, a lot of tribunal members felt, foundthat, and I even saw councilors would feel
that was really quite offensive to them.
Tribunal members really saw themselvesas independent and they acted that way.
(38:11):
But yeah, that's a problem.
And that's one of the reasonsI was more than glad to leave.
Leave VCAT and go back,just work by for myself.
Loved.
I see.
I loved the engagement with clientsand seeing clients achieve things, that
you didn't necessarily always see, andyou saw the other side of the clients
that, that, they had visions themselves,and they were putting up big money or
(38:37):
whatever, it was their ideas, their money,and you were helping them to achieve it.
And I thought.
I really enjoyed that, and I didn'tmind having a bit of banter when
there's, Peter would come along orsomeone else would have a thing.
We could have a good night,have a drink, might disagree on
a few things in life, but, we.
We didn't hug
Speaker 3 (38:55):
each other,
Speaker 2 (38:56):
we had a lot of fun.
Speaker 3 (38:57):
Maybe we did sometimes.
But now Jess, we're onto the advice stage.
Shall we go first about theyoung and mid-career planners?
'cause that's more you than me.
Speaker (39:06):
Absolutely.
I think Pete, the common theme throughall of this discussion today that
I've taken away is the importance of.
Mentoring the importanceof good leadership.
So what advice other than thatwould you give to other young
planners starting out today?
What should they focus on to stay groundedand be effective in their careers?
Speaker 2 (39:28):
I think focus on the work before them, but don't be afraid to change
direction and to broaden their skill base.
To seek out and work in.
Don't be afraid to work in both localgovernment or for government, or then go
and work in private practice, and learnby each of the experiences from them.
(39:53):
Because I think it enriches your expertiseand your understanding of planning in a
general sense, and the development andplanning profession in general also.
Speaker 3 (40:05):
Yeah.
Pete, you are approachingthe end of your career.
You've given a lot to planning.
Sounds like you've gota lot out of planning.
one of my observations is thatyou've placed a high value on
education and retraining Yes.
Going through the years.
That's right.
But as you, look forward toretirement, what reflections have
(40:25):
come to the surface and how do yousee the transition from active work?
And what lessons would you like topass on to others in the similar stage?
A lot of questions there.
Sorry.
Take your time.
Speaker 2 (40:38):
RE training is essential, one form or another.
But see, even when we went to vcat, thejudge at the time, the pres president
saw in us a number of US planners,but he thought we were a bit lacking
in our legal understanding, and he.
Arranged through Monash Uni tohave us do postgrad studies.
(40:58):
That was just wonderful and it openedour eyes to a lot of things of how
the solicitors and how the lawyersworked and all that sort of stuff.
But it also introduced more mediation.
So these sort of things, itdoesn't matter what stage in
your life, I still think the.
Training professionaldevelopment is essential.
And broadening your scope.
(41:19):
I still think, don't be afraid to move.
To get different levels of expertisebecause, it broadens the mind.
Don't be afraid to go overseas and trydifferent and experience different,
planning cultures and planning systems.
That's what I'd be saying.
Speaker 3 (41:38):
Now Jess, we've reached Culture Corner Podcast Extra.
We've flown through fivedecades, Pete, thank you.
So it's been great.
So now Culture Corner, is theresomething you've seen, read,
listened to, or experienced recently?
A film?
It could be anything.
It could be a book, could besomething you saw, something you
did, that's left an impressionand might interest our listeners.
Speaker 2 (42:02):
One, I read a great book about a year or so ago about an
Australian called the Hubert Wilkinson.
Wilkins.
He was an explorer and I justrecommend everyone should read
it, the book him, the man himself.
(42:22):
He was, came from SouthAustralia from a farm.
He was awarded Knighted by theBrits, I think great awards by the.
United States and the Russians for,because he went to both the North Pole,
the South Pole, he did all explorations.
He was extremely brave man.
(42:43):
And yet he's not hardly evenrecognized in Australia.
And I think his book is eyeopening for anyone wanting to know
about a really determined man.
And the other one is, I went to afilm two or three weeks ago, and saw.
What's the name of the woman?
And she was a surfer and she took onthe Surfing FRA fraternity and I'm just
(43:06):
trying to remember what her name is.
And it was the most gobsmacking,exercise of determination I've ever seen.
Speaker 3 (43:15):
What
Speaker 2 (43:15):
is that?
Speaker 3 (43:16):
We'll put when it comes back to you.
We'll put the links on our episode notes.
Yep.
So while Jess is going through herpodcast Extra Culture Corner, which
Pete is always very interestingmaybe it'll come back to you.
So Jess, what have you gotto tonight for this one?
Speaker (43:32):
I guess on theme with some of the comments from Pete
about the importance of education.
Mine is attending a conference.
I just came back from the propertycouncil conference on, retirement
living, which was really valuable.
It was up in, in Brisbane and I thinkjust spending a couple of days away,
focusing on something that you're reallyinterested in, which is something that
(43:54):
I am very interested in, is really good.
And look, I think just.
All those opportunitiesfor, connection with other.
Colleagues, other people in theindustry is really valuable.
We had a hilarious dinnerout one night with a heap of,
colleagues, which was great fun.
So going back to some of your commentsearlier, Pete, about bringing the fun
(44:15):
back into work and fun back into planning.
Tick, tick.
It was great fun.
And yeah, just had an excellent time.
So that's my recommendation.
And Pete, I think you've gotsomething interesting lined up.
Speaker 3 (44:28):
Yeah, I have actually, Jess, since we were talking here about this
before, but I've got two as well, Pete,and one is, listeners in Victoria.
It's got very cold here in the middleof winter, so I've rediscovered my
affection for wa hot water bottles in bed.
Speaker (44:47):
Listeners, I was gonna have the same recommendation, but
I decided to give something else.
So
Speaker 3 (44:52):
Jess threw me before because I mentioned, look I said to Jess, you
don't mind if I say hot water bottles?
And she said I was gonnasay the same thing.
So her listeners, herrecommendation completely threw me.
So I think you embrace the cold with allthe good things like hot water bottles
and singlets and things like that.
I'm sure you agree, Pete.
Speaker (45:12):
Important question though, Pete, do you have a fluffy
cover for your hot water bottle?
Speaker 3 (45:16):
No.
No.
I'm hardcore.
I'm not traditional.
And Jess, the other, podcastextra culture Corner is I attended
my first ever evening song.
Evening song at church, andthe quiet was magnificent.
It's at five o'clock.
On a Sunday.
The attendees don't have to do much.
The choir does most ofthe most of the service.
So the choir is a delight.
(45:37):
Pete, have you foundthat book on the surfer?
Speaker 2 (45:40):
Yep.
It's May MAYA Mayor And The Wave.
It's, and the wave is off the Portuguesecoast and she learned to ride the wave.
She broke and then a year or solater she broke her own world
record at riding the wave.
(46:02):
We're talking about waves.
That was seven and eight stories high.
Speaker 4 (46:07):
Wow.
And it's
Speaker 2 (46:08):
such an inspirational film.
I just recommend if you get theopportunity to go and see it.
Do it because it is so inspiration aboutwhat a determined woman can achieve.
Speaker 3 (46:22):
Pete, you are a determined man.
I know that used to clip my wing,clip my ears when I was a very cocky
consultant when, and it was a pleasure.
Absolute well, I learnedsomething from it too.
So chess, we've had a verydetermined interview subject.
Five decades is quitea remarkable achieve.
Speaker (46:42):
Absolutely.
Speaker 3 (46:42):
I very grateful for you to come along and appear in our little podcast,
Pete, and all the very best to you.
And thanks for coming along
Speaker 2 (46:51):
well, I hope I've been interesting for you.
Thank you.
And I hope I don't come acrossas some crusty old planner.
I do enjoy giving back to the profession.
Thank you.
Jess Noonan (47:01):
Thanks for listening.
If you would like to hear more of ourpodcasts, hit the follow button on Spotify
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Please also visit our Instagrampage, LinkedIn or website for behind
the scenes footage of our podcastsand to get the latest on upcoming
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If you have any suggestions orfeedback, please get in touch via
(47:24):
our social media channels or byemailing planningxchangeatgmail.
com.
This podcast is supported by VPLA.
Victorian PlanningEnvironmental Law Association.
Welcome to the Planning Exchangewhere we interview built environment
professionals who are doinginteresting work beyond the ordinary.
I'm Jess Noonan and I'm joinedby my colleague Peter Jewell.
Speaker (00:16):
today we're speaking with Peter O'Leary.
Peter is a senior member of theVictorian Planning Community.
He started as a C cadet plannerin 1974 with the City of St.
Kilda, and then went to RMIT tobecome a qualified town planner.
Following that, he worked with thecity of Sandham, the city of Oakley,
and a number of other councils.
When council amalgamations occurred inthe nineties, he left local government
(00:38):
to join a private consultancy.
He later became a full-time memberof vcat, which is also known as
the Victorian Civil AdministrativeTribunal here in Victoria.
And then in recent years, he leftFCA to become a private mediator
and consultant with his own firm.
Welcome to the show, Pete.
Speaker 2 (00:55):
Thank you.
Speaker (00:57):
Now to keep things simple tonight.
Peter Jewel, you arePete and Peter O'Leary.
You are Pete.
Okay.
Speaker 3 (01:04):
Thanks Jess.
Thanks.
Appreciate that.
Speaker (01:07):
Over to you Pete.
Speaker 3 (01:08):
Alright.
Looking back, Pete, over fivedecades, you've been involved
in planning since 1974.
When you think back to those early days,what kind of profession did you walk into?
What did planning mean back then andhow did it feel stepping into the
field at such a relatively early age?
Speaker 2 (01:30):
Oh I was just a babe in the woods.
I had the good fortune ofhaving a brother-in-law who
was a planner and an architect.
So he, when I was about sevenand a half, encouraged me to look
for A profession in planning.
fortunately I applied for a cadetship.
(01:50):
I had been ill that year at school,so I still passed, but I was not
going to get the marks that Iwanted to get to other professions,
Started work the very 2nd of January.
I was just like a sponge for knowledge.
I was just open, eager, enthusiastic.
I had a boss who hadqualifications in planning.
(02:10):
he gave me wonderful mentoring,and if I ever said I was bored.
The next thing he would give me somany extra jobs to do that encouraged
my participation in planning.
I worked under him.
He threw me in at the deep end ina number of areas I didn't have the
qualifications, but I was alreadydoing appeal tribunal, hearings.
(02:32):
By the time I was 20, I was doingprosecutions against illegal
brothels and other things.
Yeah, just representing the counsel at avery young age, simply because, I was the
only one in the planning department, thedoors were open to me, and I was naive,
but I think I learned quite quickly I seethat man, he's still alive now and I have
(02:53):
lunch with him and we have some wonderfuldiscussions, about day's gone past.
Speaker (02:59):
And Pete was the pathway of a cadetship back
then, did that come out of the.
Is that the reason whyCadetships was set up?
Speaker 2 (03:07):
Ab, absolutely.
There was a severe shortage of certainlyqualified planners, and it was ever
more obvious in local government.
What was happening was local governmentwas being given more and more planning
powers, more statutory players.
But the profession in those daysthat you would call planning
(03:27):
officers were largely unqualified.
Often they'd come from other.
Professions such as beingbuilding surveyors or building
inspectors or, admin officers.
And they had just grown into the job.
So there was a lot of, skill shortage andthat's where people like me were given
these cadetships and good mentoring.
(03:49):
And that was the way, itwas evolving in those.
Early to mid seventies.
It was really quite striking to seea number of those people like myself,
given these opportunities and, thriving.
Speaker 3 (04:02):
And the cadet experience, Pete learning by doing so, can you recall
your raw emotions of those early days?
I think you mentioned to methere was a sense of optimism.
Yes, absolutely.
And you've said that on the jobtraining, you were mentored,
you weren't just abandoned, butyou were expected to have a go.
Speaker 2 (04:23):
sometimes my boss would take me to tribunal hearings or take me to
meetings with these big senior planners atsay, Melbourne City Council or whatever.
And he would all then say tome on the way back now, don't
be intimidated by these people.
You, if you'll learn and you'll know thatit's knowledge is gonna get you there.
So don't be intimidated by older states.
(04:44):
Statesman in, in the professiondon't be, influenced by that.
So yeah, he was, there was alot of encouragement from him.
Yes, it was tough.
It was harder for me for studying andI'd had a disrupted studying career.
And I also was distracted by.
Girls and alcohol andthose sort of things.
And that's why I wentback to school full time.
Speaker (05:03):
And how did you find balancing study and work during that period?
Speaker 2 (05:07):
I struggled and my brother-in-law who became a lecturer in
planning had to give me a talking to,just start focusing more on my studies.
And I did, but it was just, therewas a period where it was struggle.
But I was still workingthose first six years.
I was still working very hard.
And I suppose in some ways, becausewe were so busy, I focused a bit more
(05:28):
on my work than I did on my studies.
Speaker (05:30):
What was the balance that you were doing?
Was it three days a weekor two days a week, or
Speaker 2 (05:36):
five day a week work.
Speaker (05:37):
Oh wow.
Speaker 2 (05:38):
Studied, two nights a week.
Speaker (05:41):
Oh, okay.
Speaker 2 (05:42):
And so then weekends, you really had to put aside a
Saturday or a Sunday afternoon.
I was sharing houses with matesand they were all out having a
good time on one of those days.
And I'll be insidetrying to study and get.
Assignments done.
Speaker (05:56):
So just moving on to council planning at South Melbourne.
Yep.
So there you were working in a verypolitically engaged municipality with
very strong community voices and Yep.
It's probably quite similar todayin the city of Port Phillip.
Speaker 4 (06:10):
Yep.
Speaker (06:10):
What was it like navigating that environment?
Was that your first.
Real experience with, dealing withthe community in that sort of setting.
And how did you manage thechallenge of being helpful to
applicants while still holding firmto planning policy and controls?
Speaker 2 (06:24):
Yeah, it wasn't my first SANDHAM gave me that introduction.
at South Melbourne it was a lot more,
confrontational.
There was basically three groups.
You had people of more of aliberal, party type atmosphere.
I'd call 'em, And then there was labor.
(06:45):
Traditional labor type people.
And then there was a lot of independence.
when I started the independence hadgot control and my first day there
I started at eight in the morningor eight 30 in the morning, and I
finished my first day about midnight.
And it was just.
Beyond my, I had neverseen anything like it.
(07:06):
It was highly confrontational, withinthe council chamber and the first three
years it was this constant battle to.
Balance all the things that you hadto do and deal with the politics
you had to deal with, the interestgroups you had to deal with.
Speaker 3 (07:26):
I might just cut in there.
And just for our listeners' sake, whodon't know Melbourne, but, south Melbourne
is an inner city, suburb in Melbourne.
it was a traditional workingclass area with very refined
but also at different stages.
It had a lot of wealth and a lot ofbig buildings, but traditionally a
working class, inner city, workingclass suburb by the time the late.
(07:48):
Seventies and eighties, there was anawful lot of gentrification going on.
And when Pete refers to liberals,he means for people overseas
conservatives and the labor peopleare, typically working class left wing.
But the third group, Pete was.
the gentrification push,
Speaker 2 (08:06):
no, these were, no, there was a, there were groups of people
who were unaligned to either politicalgroups and they comprised either
far left wing or far right wing, andbelieve it or not, formed an alliance.
So it was really quite complex.
And the other thing we say isthat a lot was going on there.
(08:27):
There was, because it was in thisarea going through, gentrification,
we had a lot of heritage controlshad been introduced and that
attracted a lot of attention.
But then there was also the SouthBank area of, we call it South
Bank, and it was the southernSouth Bank of the Yarra River.
And that was in our planning control.
(08:50):
But the government had also taken partcontrol over it because there was an
area of, it had been an industrialarea, employing up to 40, 50,000 people
and the manufacturing industry had.
Basically been replaced and the governmentwished to sell off a lot of the land,
and allow redevelopment of this area.
(09:12):
The council were pushing for moreresidential, so there was this complex,
set of both strategic planning.
That was a brilliant piece of strategicplanning that was taking place.
But on the other hand, the councils werealso focused on the heritage protection
of other large parts of the municipality.
So it was a busy, complex.
(09:33):
It was hard work.
And then amongst it, there wasa lot of political in fighting.
Speaker 3 (09:38):
all those factors, the boiling away must have
taught you an awful lot how to.
Walk on the balancing wire, doyour job, but also probably get
frustrated at times with membersof the community and councilors.
But you had to be professional throughout.
Speaker 2 (09:59):
Yeah.
Most members of the community.
enjoyed the engagement with thecommunity, so that was not a problem,
but it was just a demanding job.
I had a very good boss.
Who supported me and I didn't takesides in the political debates,
irrespective of who was in power.
I was the servant.
I think that was a thing wherea lot of us didn't get involved
(10:20):
in the political debates.
And I think that often saved yourcareer because you didn't get
drawn into false sides on things.
So that balancing, yeah, theobjective was to try and, yeah.
Provide fair and unfettered,recommendations and advice
to council on various things.
A lot of the time we found wecould work on the south banks and
(10:43):
the big projects without being.
Hindered much because the councilorswere usually focusing on the smaller
things like, renovations of one or twostory houses in these heritage precincts
that, believe it or not, the most of thefights were about that, usually in, in
the council rather than the big projectslike Southbank or some Killer Roads.
(11:05):
And Kilda Road was a, is a big boulevardin Melbourne and we had a lot of.
High-rise office buildings.
When I say high-rise, you call'em mid-rise office buildings now.
And so you, there was justa lot going on all the time.
Speaker (11:20):
I guess they probably back then as well, councilors were probably
less engaged with that kind of work.
they were more engaged with the thingsthat they were probably hearing about
on a day-to-day basis and gettingphone calls about from the community
as opposed to understanding theins and outs of a strategic plan.
Speaker 2 (11:36):
Correct.
That's right.
Yeah.
They, mainly of them did, they justdidn't understand the proportion
or the size of the projects orthe elements that went into the
buildings or, urban design issues.
They.
They were saying, look, we wantmore residential in that area.
They give a general direction, but therewasn't the interference in those sort of
issues, but there were in other issues.
Yeah.
(11:56):
Like when the government decided toclose down the ru, the st kilda rail line
in the port Melbourne rail line therewere almighty hell fights because they
didn't want to lose their train service.
History has shown us that the governmentwill, were not just, we're actually
gonna to replace it with, light rail,and you now have a service that is just
(12:18):
a brilliant service that in peak hour,
Every three minutes, a tram comes along.
It's just a brilliant service.
But it, we could see what was happeningand you had to try and, work within the
structure that some councils didn't,they didn't see beyond the immediate
fight rather than we saw the long-termbenefit of things taking place.
Speaker (12:40):
And then Pete, so after that you left council and you
went into private consultancy.
What was that shift like?
Was it a relief to move intothat environment, a challenge or?
What had happened,
Speaker 2 (12:51):
Amalgamations had taken place and I was earmarked and I got
a role in charge of planning for.
statutory planning at, the city ofPort Phillip, within six months I
found that it was more managementrather than true planning.
a job came up in working for anengineering and surveying company,
(13:11):
and I. went for it and I foundit was, enlightening to go there.
The pressures were different, thework arrangements were different.
And I basically could run my own minipractice within The organization.
And I had some, it was a fairlyconservative engineering firm.
(13:32):
It had gone through somerestructuring too, well after
local government restructuring.
This was easy peasy forme and, I just enjoyed it.
They taught me how to work inbusiness, what the cost of work was,
just fundamental business thingsabout, hourly rates, what the cost
of business is, what you have todo to earn, money and all this.
(13:54):
And within a couple of years, I wasappointed a director, I was a partner,
and, things were, it was just thiswonderful learning curve for me.
And I felt, a lot more freedom, As aplanner, and as a person it was wonderful
to be able get out there and, do some realplanning and meet with clients and achieve
(14:14):
things a lot easier and a lot quicker.
So yeah, it was enlightening.
Speaker 3 (14:19):
So Pete and Jess we're moving through the decades.
What sort of year is this pa?So we talk about 19 96, 9 7.
Yeah.
Around there.
Yep.
Speaker 2 (14:28):
yep.
Speaker 3 (14:29):
Great.
Speaker 2 (14:29):
period for me.
And then 1998, that's when I was.
I got a phone call inviting me to, if Iwas interested in becoming a VCAT member.
I thought I was gonna go there for threeyears and get some experience and move on.
But as it turned,
Speaker 3 (14:45):
excuse me, just for a moment, but for our listeners.
Everywhere but Victoria, we should explainwhat VCAT is, which is the Victorian
Civil and Administrative Tribunal.
It is the body listeners that.
Considers disputes.
If a permit applicant is rejectedby a council with its, DA or
planning application, they have theability to take the matter to VCAT
(15:08):
for, to a higher body for review.
Likewise, objectors can take on approvalsand there's any number of disputes
that can end up at vcat, but it hurt.
Here's a wide range ofdisputes, so the members of the.
Tribunal, we call 'em, independentin every sense, but they work for
basically essentially the Departmentof Justice and their ruling stands.
(15:33):
It's very rare for one of their rulingsto be taken up to the Supreme Court,
but It's meant to be accessible,but still with all the protocols
you would expect in a tribunal.
Am I far off, Pete?
Speaker 2 (15:46):
Pretty close.
That's right.
It was a super tribunal.
It was amalgamated in 1998, Acollection of, civil claims domestic.
Building, and planning disputes.
You were appointed as a memberin those days for five years,
later it was seven years.
And, yes, you ran the hearing, youmade the decision, irrespective of,
(16:07):
and sometimes you sat with othermembers, you had all the powers
of a council to make the decisionand some more powers of inquiry.
And even the planning members wereallowed to make legal decisions if
the parties agreed to us doing so.
So it is, yeah, it was,
Speaker 4 (16:27):
I
Speaker 2 (16:27):
had, I'd appeared there many men or earlier versions of it many times.
So I knew how it operated.
And I got that opportunity.
I went there.
Once again, it was an interestingtime because the state government had.
Basically created this new super tribunal.
From my point of view, it was a, anotheropening, of, a new era in, what we call
review, reviewing, decisions of council.
(16:49):
I enjoyed it.
And you got, I got togo all over Victoria.
I wasn't just stuck in, in Melbourne.
I got to go and deal with allsorts of other different types of
planning disputes, which I enjoyed.
I loved the travel, I loved,basically going all throughout
Victoria and seeing the wider.
Part of the state.
Speaker (17:07):
And how many years were you at VA? About 10,
Speaker 2 (17:09):
11 and a half years.
Speaker (17:11):
One and a half.
Speaker 2 (17:11):
I quit in the end because I just, it wasn't so
much, I didn't like the work.
It was just, I found, some aspects of itstifling to your own personal lifestyle
or my ambitions, and I decided, no, look.
So I'll go back.
To private practice as a planner.
I got to my, I was in my mid fifties.
I'm thinking what am I going to do?
I could stick around this job forthe next 15 years or I could, I just
(17:35):
thought, oh no, I just wanted togo back to plan planning basically.
'cause I enjoyed.
Speaker 3 (17:40):
Pete, this is terrific because you've listeners, we are
going through the five decades.
We've discovered Pete's early cadetyears, his years in local government.
Then as a consultant now he'shad 11 years at the tribunal.
In that role, he's, had peoplemaking submissions to him.
He's heard expert witnessespresent evidence to him.
(18:04):
So you are in a good position.
You've got lots of experience.
Experience.
What makes, in your view a good advocateat not just vcat, we've got lots of
other people who have to appear inother tribunals around the world.
What makes a good advocate?
Speaker 2 (18:19):
I, to me, the, person who is basically knows their subject
Speaker 4 (18:26):
e
Speaker 2 (18:26):
essentially, they are well prepared.
In their arguments.
They're well prepared on their issues.
And a good advocate will know whattheir opposition is going to do
and say, and be prepared for that,and have arguments to counter them.
(18:47):
There was a number of very good seniorcouncil that I saw and one in particular,
that used to frighten others, but not me.
But he was, I always thought itwas not so much what he said, but
what he had, what he didn't say.
He focused on the primaryissues very succinctly, and very
(19:08):
pointedly and then didn't stray.
Into the peripheral, a number of advocatesare very succinct, very pointed and know
their arguments and the other side'sarguments and how they can counter them.
Speaker 3 (19:21):
Yeah, I was gonna ask, just I'll jump in there.
Jess a, a good advocate thatsee if you agree with this.
Not every scheme is perfect.
Very rare.
You'll never have a perfect scheme.
So a lot of schemes.
A good advocate from my experience,Pete is acknowledges any shortcomings
in this scheme and justifies them orsays why they're not a major factor.
(19:46):
Would you agree with that
Speaker 2 (19:47):
part of that?
Yes, I agree.
Not so much the schemes as in planningschemes, but even the arguments two and
four against the project that they're.
Advocating for, they will know thestrengths of their arguments and be
confident with them and won't usewhat I call the scatter gun approach
and put up 10 different argumentsand just, confuse the advocate.
(20:11):
And a good advocate will actuallymake it easy for the tribunal member.
To make a decision in their favor,that they'll have the right words
or the right arguments to makethat decision all that much easier.
It's almost an easy answer for them.
that's what the good advocate will do.
(20:32):
They'll put the words in theirmouth or on their paper for them and
make it easy for them, and dispelthe arguments against quickly too.
Speaker (20:42):
Over your time at vcat, which was, as you said, 11 and a
half years, did you see the systembecome, more complex for advocates?
Speaker 2 (20:52):
the system itself, the planning system in Victoria during that
time did become a lot more complex.
There was a lot more policy input.
There was a lot more opportunitiesfor councils to, control things that
they desired, and there was almostan explosion in disputes people's
(21:18):
knowledge or ability to lodge.
Applications to the tribunal to seeka review of a council's decision.
So you had a combination of thingshappening, throughout our planning system
and the amount of policy really just grew.
Exponentially since the 19mid, early to mid 1990s.
(21:41):
It just was quite staggering.
Now some of it is very good and I cansee now where there's moves afoot by the
government to reduce the words, reducethe policies, and to make them far more
focused rather than, what could you say?
(22:03):
Esoteric.
And I think we, we need it becausethis, our system has basically
has got clogged with a lot of,unnecessary words and detail.
Speaker (22:14):
Do you think as well though, that has resulted in less planners
being advocates and advocates now?
For the most part being employers.
Yes.
Yes.
I personally don't hear of manyplanners being advocates anymore.
Speaker 2 (22:27):
No.
There's a lot less, and to thelawyer's credits a number of lawyers
a lot more, became a lot more.
Educated in planning policy andso forth, but I think a lot of
planners themselves didn't like that.
The cut and thrust of thebattleground of the advocacy.
Speaker (22:50):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (22:50):
There are still some planners that were doing and myself included, and I
can see that there are changes afoot wherethe planners are, being isolated out.
Or they might find it, easierto go and do other things.
Speaker (23:05):
Do you think that's a shame in terms of learning experience for
young planners coming in the industry?
Yes.
No longer necessarilygetting that experience?
Speaker 2 (23:13):
Absolutely, yes.
I, because one of the things I usedto like with my staff when I was
in local government was sending mystaff in to defend their decisions.
And I found that, look, sometimes theytook on, there was some hard stuff
I call it was character building.
Now that's, I'm being a bit humorousabout that, but in reality, a lot of
(23:36):
them, it broadened their understandingof the disputes of how to fight the
disputes, what to look for, and Ithink gave them a better balance.
In understanding planning at abroader level rather than just their
own myopic view of that particularsuburb or that municipality.
Speaker (23:55):
And it's accountability, right?
As you say, it's
Speaker 2 (23:57):
accountability.
That's right.
It's accountability.
That's right.
And we even had at the council,my job description and we
had, what would you call it?
Accountability.
We had to achieve 85% of success in ourrecommendations being accepted by V vcat
or the pre previous name of the tribunal.
(24:17):
That was basically just the challengeto us, to keep us working hard.
And that was, the boss was very insightfulin terms of encouraging us like that.
Speaker 3 (24:26):
You would've made a tough football coach, Pete.
But, but Jess, there are stillvery, some very good planning
advocates at the tribunal.
If you had come down the otherFriday, you could have seen me,
down there present a brilliant case.
You'd agree with that, Pete?
You saw me, on display?
Speaker 2 (24:41):
It was a, no, it was good.
No, it was good to see.
And no, it's being
Speaker (24:45):
polite,
Speaker 2 (24:46):
I'll be perfectly honest, I think you're witness Newey subject,
. Speaker 3: I'm always grateful to people who can carry me, Pete.
I've got a, yeah, with the planning profession too
often the planners who go in asexpert witnesses, some of them.
Come across as basically defacto,advocates for their clients, whereas
(25:06):
the barrister or the solicitor shouldbe the advocate and the planner,
if they're coming in as an expertwitness, should be a lot more,
circumspect about their opinions.
Now that's a personal view, but I thinkall too often, I don't think, and I
think I've seen a number of planners whohave not helped the planning profession.
Speaker 3 (25:27):
no, I get it.
I get it now.
Pete, leaving the, no.
I was gonna ask you on, just onyour final bit, on your, on our span
across the years, what makes, inyour opinion, a good tribunal member?
And again, we've got listenersall around the world.
There's lots of judges or,commissioners or something from you.
Were close up to it.
(25:49):
What makes a good tribunal member?
Or judge or whatever.
Speaker 2 (25:52):
Firstly, they've gotta be a good listener.
They've gotta be independent and be seen.
To be independent, they need tobe well prepared and know the
subject that they're dealing with.
That is, they've gotta do their homework,they've gotta have read the full file
(26:13):
and documents and be right on top of it.
From the get go.
And I think I've seen some that arevery good at it and know their subject
very well, and I've seen some thatare a bit lazy and don't necessarily
do the homework that they should inpreparation for an appeal hearing.
That's my opinion is what makes 'em good.
(26:34):
They should have also a good broad,spectrum of planning expertise.
And I think.
In my opinion, all too often I wonderwhat questions sometimes some of the
members are asked when they're at aninterview, but that's because, and I
think that's a fault of the system asthat sometimes they don't even know what
(26:56):
they want or what they're thinking of.
And then a tribunal member inthe planning list has to also
often provide a Written decision.
Their writing skills are paramount.
They've got to have a good understandingand I'll call myself out on that.
That was always thehardest part of my job.
(27:17):
I enjoyed the hearings.
I enjoyed the running ofhearings and I enjoyed that and
I enjoyed making the decision.
But it was explaining, thedecision was the hard part for me.
You not, being concisein my decision writing.
And there were some people Iwas highly jealous of 'cause
they just were wonderful.
Authors.
Peter Jewell (27:39):
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Speaker (28:00):
Now, your last era, which was leaving the tribunal and going back into
an advocacy role, that must have beenvery strange, having gone from vcat,
going back to submitting applicationsagain, dealing with council directly,
dealing with the community again.
What was that like?
Was it strange or did you enjoy it?
Speaker 2 (28:24):
No it wasn't.
Firstly, there's a rule at VCATis you can't go back and appear
as an advocate for two years.
So I couldn't automatically just go backand be on the other side of the table.
There was a two year no Gaza.
I had done a fair bit of, I'd done somestudies when I was at VA on tribunal
law, but I'd also done, and that helpedme in advocacy and as a tribunal member.
(28:48):
But I'd also had, did a fair bit onmediation and, when I left a new judge,
the judge left and a new judge came in.
Thankfully, and he asked me one tocome back as a senior member and I
said, no, but secondly he said, wouldyou like to be a private mediator?
(29:10):
So I was able to work as a privatemediator and that was this just I,
I enjoyed mediation, but becominga private mediator was just
opened up a number of other doors
All different clients for councils,and sometimes councils would engage
me to run public hearings or publicmeetings, consultations where there
(29:32):
are planning disputes, anything from.
Five, 10 people to 80 people in aroom, and they get me because I had,
I could, I suppose command a bit moreauthority because they'd say I was
a tribunal member and I was this andthat, and I knew the planning system.
And I'd go and I'd say my roleis not to make the decision.
(29:52):
I'm not making a decision today.
I'm here to improve the quality of the.
Dispute so you people can understandbetter and ask questions and do that.
a number of councils engaged me todo that, and I just loved doing it.
It was good.
And also the private mediation sideof it was good because I had so much
contact with all the participants.
(30:14):
I didn't write up the final decision, oneof the tribunal members would do that.
I didn't mind that.
It was easy, all easy.
Done.
Speaker (30:21):
Do you think in the current, state of play in our
industry, do you think mediationis a bit of a missed opportunity?
Speaker 2 (30:27):
Yes, I think it is.
But the problem is, why VCAT is moresuccessful is it's basically the
last chance or the last opportunitybefore you go to a hearing.
Whereas a lot of people live therein a private mediation that they may
not feel the same need to do that.
But I think there are opportunities for.
(30:50):
greater interaction and that the councilscan play a role, not necessarily on
every planning dispute, but on the biggerplanning disputes where the community
might get a b in its bonnet and notunderstand the full, who's making the
decision and what the decision really.
Means, and I think that's where amediator or a private consultant
(31:13):
can come in and help the partiesto understand the dispute.
And I recently, one of theregional councils has got me
back doing these things again.
And I really enjoy it.
You go out and you meet these peopleand you can sit down with them, You
are engaging with them, but alsohelping them to understand the dispute.
And it's also helping the councilofficer to write the report because
(31:38):
the issues are better focused,without rank or, so I enjoy it.
And they were the things that Ipartly learned through the tribunal.
And then I did further mediationstudies and I enjoyed it.
The trouble is I realizedI was not gonna make.
Full money on it.
I still needed to do my advocacyand a number of councils got
(31:58):
me back to do, got me to do meto act for 'em at the tribunal.
And I did, a lot for a number of councils.
I quite enjoy doing it.
there's a bit more freedom.
I can talk to the, objectivesand all those sort of things.
Speaker 3 (32:13):
I wanted to ask you before we get on to reflections and guidance.
Looking back, you've been in the hotseat in local government, you've been,
a consultant dealing with clientsand other lots of other people.
You've been sitting onthe tribunal for 11 years.
You've done the private mediation.
You must get great skills readingpeople and seeing where reading
(32:39):
people's emotions and theirstrengths and their vulnerabilities
and trying to get together.
People who sometimes can'tstand each other and try to get.
Find a middle ground.
So being able to read people mustit's an ongoing job, isn't it?
That, that process.
(33:00):
Yeah.
And give us an answer to that and thenwe'll get onto reflections and go.
Very true.
Speaker 2 (33:03):
That, and it was even after I left VCAT and I
did some more preview mediation.
There's one fellow, and he could.
He was teaching us to basically, we couldsit in a, he can sit in a room, no tables,
no nothing, and just sit and converse.
And he helps the parties to draw outthe emotions so that the other party
(33:25):
experiences that other person's emotions.
And so it becomes quite a, an youcan see the whole dynamic of that
encounter or meeting change over time.
And there are skills and youlearn by being a mediator.
You have the moment, you learn to know,you find the moment and we've got there.
(33:46):
You're going to get there because youcan see how we've moved from positions.
You stink.
You're a piece of shit To actually,issues and working through the issues and
as soon as they collect onto the issuesand how it can be, what they want and
are able to express themselves, doesn'tmatter what their level of education is.
(34:07):
But once they can start toexpress themselves, you can
recognize that and then.
Bring the parties together.
And that's one of the rewarding things.
And it's a very different skillthan being a tribunal member.
it was one of those wonderful things.
I've able to see some reallygood settlements by people.
That sometimes we're in alot of pain, a lot of mental
(34:29):
anguish and, they're able to.
Come to terms and come to settlements.
It was a wonderful thing to see.
Speaker 3 (34:39):
And Pete with workplaces.
When I started in localgovernment, it was a lot of fun.
We'd work and then five o'clock Iwould come around and we would be
down the boozer and carrying on.
And there was a lot of laughterin the workplace and there was
just a lot of mucking around.
A lot of, there was I don't knowwhether it was, not gallow's humor,
but you know how you've gottahave humor to make things work.
(35:01):
There's time for.
Time for discipline,there's time for that.
But in terms of group dynamics, you'vegotta have a laugh stuff, right?
But when I go to councils thesedays, they seem so uptight,
they just seem so, I don't know.
Maybe we, were a bit morerebellious or something.
What do you think is there,do you think that's, though
(35:22):
partly places become less fun?
Speaker (35:24):
Do you think that's also partly though because of the additional
stress that councils are now under?
It seems as though the stresslevels at councils are far higher
than perhaps what they were.
Speaker 4 (35:35):
Yep.
Speaker (35:35):
And that's the common theme that comes through
Speaker 2 (35:39):
Not completely, but I think the issues are is they've gotta have this
public face, they're being taught to,
Speaker (35:45):
yeah.
Speaker 2 (35:45):
Have the public face.
And no commitment and allthose sorts of things.
Yeah.
It's a public base where they're,and they're quite often they're
process oriented to get things done.
Yes.
And they can't let their guards down.
And the same thing happened atvcat, and yet behind the scenes
you often did get some very.
Very, the, the pink room at vcatwhen I was there, there was often
(36:10):
some very funny moments, andsome very interesting exchanges.
. I still think it, there arethese opportunities to let your
hair down and have a good timeand all those sort of things.
But the public, I think there's so
Speaker 3 (36:22):
much more serious too, Pete, I think the young people are just walk.
Down.
You talked about a sense of optimismin the seventies, and I remember that
optimism, but there seems to be thisweighing down on people of all sorts
of, problems that maybe we shrugged off.
Speaker 2 (36:39):
I think it's just a, look, I've seen it both at vcat.
I've seen that councils and I'veseen it out in private practice.
But I think, see that's one of the thingswhy I left VCAT was 'cause I wanted to
reengage with a lot of my profession.
And, you can go, you get out toplanning functions, you can go to social
functions and you could engage withyour, colleagues and have a good time.
(37:04):
Big, have a drink and abig dinner and so forth.
but often it became quite constrainedand the tribunal members would
be looking over their shoulder.
Who have I got appearing before me?
I can't go near them.
And you gotta the stage whereyou often distance yourself.
And some members didn't,just wouldn't even engage.
And there was even some judgesthat used to give directions that
(37:26):
we could not go to any Christmasfunctions of any consultants.
We weren't allowed to go to any companies.
And I still went back to one of myprevious company because, any job
that they're involved with, theyknew I wouldn't sit on anyway, but
I'd been a director of that companyand I got on very well with those
professionals and they respected that.
(37:47):
there was a lot of false.
They wanted to make things lookso dedicated because some members
of the public thought that wewere on the developer's side, or
we were the developer's friend.
And, a lot of tribunal members felt, foundthat, and I even saw councilors would feel
that was really quite offensive to them.
Tribunal members really saw themselvesas independent and they acted that way.
(38:11):
But yeah, that's a problem.
And that's one of the reasonsI was more than glad to leave.
Leave VCAT and go back,just work by for myself.
Loved.
I see.
I loved the engagement with clientsand seeing clients achieve things, that
you didn't necessarily always see, andyou saw the other side of the clients
that, that, they had visions themselves,and they were putting up big money or
(38:37):
whatever, it was their ideas, their money,and you were helping them to achieve it.
And I thought.
I really enjoyed that, and I didn'tmind having a bit of banter when
there's, Peter would come along orsomeone else would have a thing.
We could have a good night,have a drink, might disagree on
a few things in life, but, we.
We didn't hug
Speaker 3 (38:55):
each other,
Speaker 2 (38:56):
we had a lot of fun.
Speaker 3 (38:57):
Maybe we did sometimes.
But now Jess, we're onto the advice stage.
Shall we go first about theyoung and mid-career planners?
'cause that's more you than me.
Speaker (39:06):
Absolutely.
I think Pete, the common theme throughall of this discussion today that
I've taken away is the importance of.
Mentoring the importanceof good leadership.
So what advice other than thatwould you give to other young
planners starting out today?
What should they focus on to stay groundedand be effective in their careers?
Speaker 2 (39:28):
I think focus on the work before them, but don't be afraid to change
direction and to broaden their skill base.
To seek out and work in.
Don't be afraid to work in both localgovernment or for government, or then go
and work in private practice, and learnby each of the experiences from them.
(39:53):
Because I think it enriches your expertiseand your understanding of planning in a
general sense, and the development andplanning profession in general also.
Speaker 3 (40:05):
Yeah.
Pete, you are approachingthe end of your career.
You've given a lot to planning.
Sounds like you've gota lot out of planning.
one of my observations is thatyou've placed a high value on
education and retraining Yes.
Going through the years.
That's right.
But as you, look forward toretirement, what reflections have
(40:25):
come to the surface and how do yousee the transition from active work?
And what lessons would you like topass on to others in the similar stage?
A lot of questions there.
Sorry.
Take your time.
Speaker 2 (40:38):
RE training is essential, one form or another.
But see, even when we went to vcat, thejudge at the time, the pres president
saw in us a number of US planners,but he thought we were a bit lacking
in our legal understanding, and he.
Arranged through Monash Uni tohave us do postgrad studies.
(40:58):
That was just wonderful and it openedour eyes to a lot of things of how
the solicitors and how the lawyersworked and all that sort of stuff.
But it also introduced more mediation.
So these sort of things, itdoesn't matter what stage in
your life, I still think the.
Training professionaldevelopment is essential.
And broadening your scope.
(41:19):
I still think, don't be afraid to move.
To get different levels of expertisebecause, it broadens the mind.
Don't be afraid to go overseas and trydifferent and experience different,
planning cultures and planning systems.
That's what I'd be saying.
Speaker 3 (41:38):
Now Jess, we've reached Culture Corner Podcast Extra.
We've flown through fivedecades, Pete, thank you.
So it's been great.
So now Culture Corner, is theresomething you've seen, read,
listened to, or experienced recently?
A film?
It could be anything.
It could be a book, could besomething you saw, something you
did, that's left an impressionand might interest our listeners.
Speaker 2 (42:02):
One, I read a great book about a year or so ago about an
Australian called the Hubert Wilkinson.
Wilkins.
He was an explorer and I justrecommend everyone should read
it, the book him, the man himself.
(42:22):
He was, came from SouthAustralia from a farm.
He was awarded Knighted by theBrits, I think great awards by the.
United States and the Russians for,because he went to both the North Pole,
the South Pole, he did all explorations.
He was extremely brave man.
(42:43):
And yet he's not hardly evenrecognized in Australia.
And I think his book is eyeopening for anyone wanting to know
about a really determined man.
And the other one is, I went to afilm two or three weeks ago, and saw.
What's the name of the woman?
And she was a surfer and she took onthe Surfing FRA fraternity and I'm just
(43:06):
trying to remember what her name is.
And it was the most gobsmacking,exercise of determination I've ever seen.
Speaker 3 (43:15):
What
Speaker 2 (43:15):
is that?
Speaker 3 (43:16):
We'll put when it comes back to you.
We'll put the links on our episode notes.
Yep.
So while Jess is going through herpodcast Extra Culture Corner, which
Pete is always very interestingmaybe it'll come back to you.
So Jess, what have you gotto tonight for this one?
Speaker (43:32):
I guess on theme with some of the comments from Pete
about the importance of education.
Mine is attending a conference.
I just came back from the propertycouncil conference on, retirement
living, which was really valuable.
It was up in, in Brisbane and I thinkjust spending a couple of days away,
focusing on something that you're reallyinterested in, which is something that
(43:54):
I am very interested in, is really good.
And look, I think just.
All those opportunitiesfor, connection with other.
Colleagues, other people in theindustry is really valuable.
We had a hilarious dinnerout one night with a heap of,
colleagues, which was great fun.
So going back to some of your commentsearlier, Pete, about bringing the fun
(44:15):
back into work and fun back into planning.
Tick, tick.
It was great fun.
And yeah, just had an excellent time.
So that's my recommendation.
And Pete, I think you've gotsomething interesting lined up.
Speaker 3 (44:28):
Yeah, I have actually, Jess, since we were talking here about this
before, but I've got two as well, Pete,and one is, listeners in Victoria.
It's got very cold here in the middleof winter, so I've rediscovered my
affection for wa hot water bottles in bed.
Speaker (44:47):
Listeners, I was gonna have the same recommendation, but
I decided to give something else.
So
Speaker 3 (44:52):
Jess threw me before because I mentioned, look I said to Jess, you
don't mind if I say hot water bottles?
And she said I was gonnasay the same thing.
So her listeners, herrecommendation completely threw me.
So I think you embrace the cold with allthe good things like hot water bottles
and singlets and things like that.
I'm sure you agree, Pete.
Speaker (45:12):
Important question though, Pete, do you have a fluffy
cover for your hot water bottle?
Speaker 3 (45:16):
No.
No.
I'm hardcore.
I'm not traditional.
And Jess, the other, podcastextra culture Corner is I attended
my first ever evening song.
Evening song at church, andthe quiet was magnificent.
It's at five o'clock.
On a Sunday.
The attendees don't have to do much.
The choir does most ofthe most of the service.
So the choir is a delight.
(45:37):
Pete, have you foundthat book on the surfer?
Speaker 2 (45:40):
Yep.
It's May MAYA Mayor And The Wave.
It's, and the wave is off the Portuguesecoast and she learned to ride the wave.
She broke and then a year or solater she broke her own world
record at riding the wave.
(46:02):
We're talking about waves.
That was seven and eight stories high.
Speaker 4 (46:07):
Wow.
And it's
Speaker 2 (46:08):
such an inspirational film.
I just recommend if you get theopportunity to go and see it.
Do it because it is so inspiration aboutwhat a determined woman can achieve.
Speaker 3 (46:22):
Pete, you are a determined man.
I know that used to clip my wing,clip my ears when I was a very cocky
consultant when, and it was a pleasure.
Absolute well, I learnedsomething from it too.
So chess, we've had a verydetermined interview subject.
Five decades is quitea remarkable achieve.
Speaker (46:42):
Absolutely.
Speaker 3 (46:42):
I very grateful for you to come along and appear in our little podcast,
Pete, and all the very best to you.
And thanks for coming along
Speaker 2 (46:51):
well, I hope I've been interesting for you.
Thank you.
And I hope I don't come acrossas some crusty old planner.
I do enjoy giving back to the profession.
Thank you.
Jess Noonan (47:01):
Thanks for listening.
If you would like to hear more of ourpodcasts, hit the follow button on Spotify
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Please also visit our Instagrampage, LinkedIn or website for behind
the scenes footage of our podcastsand to get the latest on upcoming
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If you have any suggestions orfeedback, please get in touch via
(47:24):
our social media channels or byemailing planningxchangeatgmail.
com.
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