December 26, 2024 • 38 mins
In this episode, Jess and Pete reflect on the tenth anniversary of the PlanningxChange podcast. This discussion occurs before an Ai review of the planningxchange podcast series. A rather indulgent episode to mark the anniversary!
For podcast extra / culture corner, Jess recommends making pizzas at home with the family. Her New Year resolution is to have more interesting podcast extra recommendations. Pete recommends doing background research about books you like. He also discusses film locations and the potential for cultural tourism. On YouTube there are various films about film locations. The film Pete mentions is Mad Max.
There are now transcripts for the episodes. These will progressively be included for previous editions. The transcripts generally reflect what is said in the episode (they are altered to improve grammar etc).
Audio production by Jack Bavage. Podcast released on 27 December 2024.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:04):
This podcast is supportedby VPLA, Victorian Planning
Environmental Law Association.
Welcome to The Planning Exchange,where we interview built environment
professionals who are doinginteresting work beyond the ordinary.
I'm Jess Noonan, and I'm joinedby my colleague, Peter Jewell.
Pete, here we are, 10 years.
Did you ever think this day would come?
(00:26):
Yes, I did.
Yes.
I thought, you know, we will be talkingabout the podcast in 40 years time.
So 50 years after we start, we'llstill be talking about it and still
creating hopefully interesting podcasts.
So for those of you that don'tknow, we had our 10 year.
Party, it was an excellent night.
We had a bunch of our esteemed colleaguesthat have featured on the podcast.
(00:50):
We had some of our amazing sponsors andit was just a really, really lovely night.
Did you enjoy yourself?
Well, it got a bit outof hand, Jess, at times.
there's all sorts ofdebauchery, in business.
And you'll be happy that we celebratedin style and, everyone had a great time.
I hope there was veryinteresting speeches.
(01:12):
A good way of putting it.
Yes.
And, we had a fun time and a lotof good people around us, Jess,
who helped us make the podcast.
Absolutely.
So this is our 10th anniversary, Jess.
We started in 2014.
Yep.
That's right.
And
this is episode 125.
(01:34):
Now, listeners, Jess.
Suggests we go to episode 500.
I don't know whether I've got that inthe tank, but we will try and keep going.
But tonight, Jess, we've got avery special, well, not really
an interview, but a recording.
That's right.
We are going unstructured for one ofthe first episodes that we've ever done,
where you just get to hear from Peteand I, do you want to explain what we're
(01:58):
doing in the later part of the interview?
Pete.
It was some special guests.
My eldest Tom, who was very helpful atthe start of the podcast, the tech issues.
And also he produced some of themusic, which was on some of the outros.
I still remember meeting Tomat a cafe in Richmond in the
very early days of the podcast.
(02:20):
And I think he was probably inyear 10 or something like that.
He was very young, and he was sohelpful and so positive and he was
such a great asset to us in those earlydays and helping us set everything up.
He's been very well brought up,Tom asked, AI to do a review.
Of planning exchange podcast.
(02:41):
And all he said was, look atthis website, do a review.
So dear listener what you're about tohear after we finish up talking will
be a couple analyzing and discussingplanning exchange, just the robots.
And do you think it's anaccurate representation?
(03:01):
It's very flattering and parts, andI think Jess, it's like some of the
interviews, it wanders over the place.
They delve into, you know,long ago episodes and bring up
parts that I've forgotten Jess.
Was it through chat, GPT, that he did it?
I don't know which one, but it'sremarkable because Jess, you'll
(03:22):
recall in the early days of theinterviews with guests, you know we
would ask, how long till computersstart making planning decisions.
And our guests laughed and said,never, you know, computers could
never make decisions on planningapplications or requests or tribunals.
(03:43):
And here we are.
Have you used it yourself?
I do.
I do use it for all sorts of things.
Is there a way in which you're meant toask the questions to get the best result?
Cause I feel like every timeI've tried to use it, it's been
fairly hit and miss, to be honest.
You delve deeper because it gives verybroad answers at the start, but you
(04:04):
know, some, some things like just,I say, look, I'm a, I love tennis as
you know Jess, and I'm a hack player.
Chat GPT or whatever, what can I do?
What are the, what are the five things Ican concentrate on to be a better player?
And it gives really good advice.
Um, I mean, I keep, I keep tryingto chat up Siri, but she doesn't
(04:29):
respond.
So, you know, your point before about howwe used to ask all of our interviewers.
Sorry, interviewees, that, that question.
I think the other question we quiteregularly asked was about driverless cars
and how soon that was going to happen.
And that seems to have fallen off theradar a bit in terms of our industry.
(04:49):
There's not as muchtalk about that anymore.
There's obviously a lot oftalk about electric cars.
But hasn't been as much talk aboutdriverless cars for some time.
Well, it's interesting, Jess, if yougo back over the 10 years, certain
things were very, I don't know,probably you know, trendy, or faddish
(05:09):
and it's amazing how people getsucked into the next greatest thing.
Like I think, you know, you'regoing to die, but they're very,
you know, very popular in certaincircles, but there's lots of fashions
your general overview of, Isuppose, Jess, we should tell our
(05:31):
listeners how we do the podcast.
Absolutely.
I think that's probably evolved a lot overthe years as well, Pete, because in the
early days we had a single microphone.
We would, crowd around a verysmall table and talk to our guests.
Um, we then moved to meeting our guestsin a, you know, generally in a bigger
(05:53):
room around boardroom table with multiplemicrophones, a very professional setup.
If I, if I can say, and thenof course, COVID hit and we had
to pivot to a zoom only model
So that's where we are now.
Our format has changed somewhat inthat we used to meet up with our guests
for extensive sessions pre podcast.
(06:15):
We'd talk about questions andthemes and the like, and we would
have coffee, we might have lunch.
There was a verystructured way in which we.
Approached all of our guests.
And then of course, over the years,as we've become more comfortable,
we have become more efficient.
We know what we're doing and we generallydraft our questions and themes and
(06:38):
we send them to our guests ahead oftime and get their input on those,
make sure that they're comfortable.
Very rarely do we get muchrequested changes to the questions,
and then we record generally.
That's right.
So listeners, we approachdifferent people.
So Jess might, read, hearsomething or have a referral.
Likewise.
(06:59):
And then we go and approach those people.
Most of the time people respond yes.
I don't think we've actuallyhad many people say no.
Oh, jess, in my life I'vehad lots of rejection.
I feel like most people havebeen very, very generous.
Yeah.
Very open to the idea, verygenerous with their time.
(07:20):
We've been extremely lucky in thatregard and we've had really good guests.
And so then as you say, Jess,we send them what we call as Q
and T's, questions and themes.
And, you know, that involves a bit ofresearch by us, Jess, you don't want
to waste the subjects time and wedon't want to have a bad interview.
And I think it also dependson who we're interviewing, you
(07:43):
know, we have a very broad.
range of people that we interview.
We have people that.
Or almost professional podcastersthat do the rounds, I guess you'd
call it on lots of different podcasts.
So they're very seasoned at it.
A lot of people that have never donea podcast before and are very nervous.
So we have to sort of accommodatefor both types of people or both
(08:05):
backgrounds, the professionals andthe novice I guess we would call them.
So hence why we do.
Generally approach the interviewin a somewhat structured manner.
You mean people who've beeninterviewed on podcasts,
people that have done lots of podcasts.
Yeah.
So I find.
When we first, the first time we interviewsomeone is when we meet them and we
(08:28):
meet them online and, we have a chatfor maybe five or 10 minutes, Jess.
And in that short time we have to makethem comfortable, I suppose, Jess.
Yeah.
Tell some bad jokes.
I always say to some of the guests,I say, look, we're going to make you
famous or, and you realize that some goatherder in the Gobi desert is going to
(08:49):
be hanging off every word that you say.
And so this is, you've got to make theguest comfortable and also that it's
going to be a professional interview.
We, this is a passion project for bothof us, Jess, you've got full time work.
You've got.
Heaps of things going on familywise and everything like that.
(09:09):
But we still try to makeit the best, I think.
Absolutely.
And I do like our interviews when weinterview our podcast cousins, with
other people who produce planningrelated podcasts, it's always good to,
and we call them our cousin, but it'salways good to hear how they go with it.
Compare notes.
(09:31):
And so we have the interview andwe give the questions and themes
to our subject, but we do go offon tangents, Jess, quite a bit.
Yes, absolutely.
I think you go off on sharper,more distant tangents than anyone.
Lies.
Yeah, no, you just chase them downon, you know, like off you go.
(09:52):
I don't know.
And listeners, when we record,we don't have our video on, we'll
be just texting each other.
Um, but, and the reason we don't have thevideo on is for audio quality not because
we don't like to look at each other
and, and thank you, Jess and an apologysometimes listeners, if the audio is a
(10:14):
bit crackly, that's normally our guest.
Um, But we have a great audio engineerin Jack, Jack Bavage, who, manages
to put fixes all our blemishes, Jess.
Makes us sound somewhat professionalwhen it's perhaps not always
as professional as it could be.
(10:34):
That's right.
So on the AI topic, Jess, I've heardfrom people that they would prefer AI
to assess their proposals rather thanthe actual people who do review them.
I mean,
it's interesting that you say that I wasthinking about this recently, you know,
I think when we first started having thisconversation about, and then, you know,
(10:56):
as you mentioned before, that we did askthis question to a lot of our guests in
the early days, the response was always,well, no, that wouldn't be possible,
particularly in the context that wepredominantly work in Pete because we have
a lot of subjective, you know, policy andsubjective policy directions and the like,
which make it, Almost near impossible.
(11:18):
I think for a machine to make adecision on those sorts of things.
There's also been a conversationobviously about design and the fact that
our subjective and discretionary typecontrols produce better design outcomes.
Now.
That's probably up for debate.
And I'm sure some of our colleaguesin other states and countries
(11:38):
would disagree with that.
And I'm sure that there's probablyways around that, but it's interesting
now in the current climate thatwe're in, in our work context,
and I won't get too specific here.
Um, so as not to bore our listeners,but, you know, I think we're very much
moving towards a system that is somewhatautomated, you know, it's a bit more
(12:00):
of a tick the box system as opposedto being a discretionary type system.
And I know this works in otherstates, but I wonder whether that
change of direction or tact issomewhat purposeful, knowing that.
Machines would then be able to makemore of the decisions and not, not
saying that would be all of thedecisions, but certainly the low
(12:21):
hanging fruit could somewhat bemanaged or, decided on through AI.
What do you think?
It has a big role, Jess, and, you know,I always think back that the blue collar
workforce, the industrial workforce wasdecimated by industrialization and, you
(12:43):
know, in the seventies and eighties, alot of factories were just got smashed
by, automation and things like that.
And it never really hit the whitecollar sector, which we are in.
I suspect AI is just going to bea very efficient tool for a number
of workplaces to reduce workers.
(13:04):
I think, you know, when it can programthings so well, like you'll hear
listeners, I mean, it's remarkablethat the two people, I'll call them
people, entities who review us.
I mean, you could say that theywere human in every way, Jess.
Absolutely.
(13:24):
And so I think AI is, I think theprogress is going to be incredible.
I'm always positive that Ithink the future is our friend.
I think it's all positive things,but Jess, where to from here?
What sort of areas, what sort of topicswould you like to explore going forward?
I think we've had some reallyinteresting ones this year.
(13:45):
And we've interviewed, Well, maybe not somuch this year, but particularly over the
last couple of years, we've interviewed alot of people in the academic space, which
has been a really good way of breaking upsome of the other guests that we have had.
Some of them have been really interesting.
I really enjoy hearing about thenew research that's coming out
that might potentially influenceour profession moving forward.
(14:09):
So I've really enjoyed that andwould like to continue doing that.
I think there's lots ofdifferent opportunities here.
I mean, as we keep saying, Pete, we'renever short of people to interview.
And look, I think that's also been,influenced by the fact that we have.
We've interviewed peoplefrom all over the world.
(14:29):
You know, we're not limited to Victoria.
We're not limited to Australia wherewe've interviewed that many people
internationally now that we probablycan't even call ourselves a Victorian
based or Australian based podcast
Trans global but I hope, I hope dearlisteners, you don't get upset with
our Aussie accents, just absolutely.
(14:50):
And you know, it all is aboutnew ideas, Jess, you're right.
And, you know, we have to be open tonew ideas and new ways of doing things.
And I think we should alsobe really open to failure.
Absolutely.
Try things to fail, because Iget frustrated with the planning
orthodoxy, Jess, you know, there'sa set formula to, for baking a cake.
(15:15):
And I think that there's lotsof different cakes you can bake.
Of course, you have to follow theessential, approaches, but I think that
there's lots of things we don't know yet,but we have to be open to those things.
Absolutely.
And I suspect the next 10 years is goingto be as revolutionary in city development
(15:35):
and planning than the last 30, 40 years.
I'm feeling that we are on thecusp of some great new things.
I also thought it would be interestingto talk about, the feedback that
we get, which is few and farbetween, to be honest, we very much
appreciate feedback when we getit, but we don't get a lot of it.
Well, some of it's negative and some
(15:59):
of it's definitely negative,but we get a lot of positive
and positive.
And, and also even the, and you know, wereceived one the other day, dear listener.
And it was couched in, I'm a big fan ofthe show, but I, but I've got a feeling
that you are leaning in one, one way.
Yeah.
I am.
Yep.
I write this as I want to keeplistening and I don't want you to
(16:20):
change anything, but just I've gotthis feeling, which, which is a
really lovely thing to do, Jess.
I mean, we produce the podcast andthen we push publish and off it goes
and we try to make them interestingand we try to let the subject speak.
Jess and I are, very careful not to let.
(16:42):
Our personal opinions orpreferences get in the way because
we don't want to make a partisan.
In any way, Jess, what do you think?
Yeah, absolutely.
We try and let the person talk andwe challenge them on points if we see
fit, but it's really about recordingsome of these really important
(17:04):
professionals in our industry.
And, we were talking before Pete thaton a slightly somber note that we've
actually Had a number of the peoplethat we've interviewed over the years,
pass away, which has been extremelysad, but we're proud that we can
preserve, their memory and some oftheir professional background and their
(17:24):
thoughts and ideas on certain things.
And that will be there forever.
For their families, for theirfriends, their colleagues to
perhaps listen to and, reflect on.
Well you know, from ''Elegy Writtenin a County Churchyard', the paths
of glory lead but to the grave'.
Jess, you know how I like recitingpoetry and things like that.
Absolutely.
;The paths of glorylead but to the grave.'
(17:45):
So that's where it goes, but, so we'vegot with the podcast, we obviously
got the interview and then we havethe more lighthearted part, which
is podcast extra culture corner.
And that was pinched from a podcastI really liked, which is no longer
going 'London calling', but that isa different type of segment, Jess.
(18:08):
Yes, it is.
And one that always makes me feel like Idon't have much of a life at the moment.
You've got a very full life.
What are you saying?
But, but, and what do you thinkthat segment brings forward, Jess?
It's a really interesting segment inthat it shows us or tells us a lot about,
(18:29):
the person that we're interviewing.
And I think my favorite interviewsover the years have been the ones
where, cause we often say to ourguests, right, this does not need to
be planning related or work related.
And I would say that 80 percentof people still recommend
something that's work related.
So I always find it really interestingand I love when people recommend
(18:50):
something that's not work related, causeit really shows their true personality
or shows you something more about them.
And you know, certainly for me,mine absolutely never work related
minor, always a terrible book orterrible TV show that I'm watching.
I think I recommendedomelettes the other day, Jess.
Well, mine today, isn'tgoing to be too dissimilar,
(19:12):
but it is fun.
So do you listen?
We really enjoy what we do.
We muddle along.
It is, you know, we're independent.
We have got some sponsors, butno one ever influences how we
approach things or what we say.
And we really enjoy what we do.
I think Jess and 10 years on, it's,you know, we've both gone through a lot
(19:32):
of things in that last 10 years, but
I said to someone the other day, Oh,we're not professional podcasters.
And they said, what are you talking about?
You've been doing it for 10 years.
You're doing podcasting beforeanyone else was doing podcasting.
Of course you're a professional.
We did start early and, I think, it'sthe people who do other podcasts.
Everyone's very supportiveof each other like that.
(19:54):
I think we are one of Australia'slongest running independent city
affairs, you know, planning podcasts.
And also people are come and goingsadly they do, but we're also
looking for a big new sponsor.
So I'll just put that out.
So if you, if you know anyonewith pot loads of money.
If you're very altruistic and want tohelp us out, they can send us an email and
(20:18):
who perhaps wants to increasetheir coverage of their, of their
company or increase the, um,If they're associated with us,
yes, they will have enormous success.
We associate with our brandplanning exchange or PX.
Now, Jess, what, uh, podcast extra culturecorner, whatever you got to for that.
(20:43):
Well, not dissimilar to your omelets.
I've been making a lot of pizzas recently.
Very short on time at the moment, life'sjust pretty hectic leading into Christmas.
And we've started making pizzaswith the kids, generally only once
a week, not feeding them pizza everysingle night, but it's a really
nice, fun sort of family activity.
Everyone gets involved.
Kids roll pizza dough and, you know,they'll spread the pasata out on the base
(21:07):
and put the herbs on and all the rest.
And it's been really nice.
This is a really, it really, areally nice way to end the day
and everyone can be part of it.
Everyone's learning something.
It's been nice.
So I really haven't had time toread any books or watch any movies
in the last couple of weeks.
(21:27):
It's all been a bit hectic.
So what about you, Pete?
Oh, well, since we haven't got a guest,Jess, I've got maybe two or three and
You always outdo me . You've alwaysgot very highbrow recommendations.
No, no.
It's once I've, I'm completelyobsessed with tennis, as you know,
Jess and, my tennis game needssome help apart from chat, GPT.
(21:48):
So I bought myself a ball machine.
Jess, I used one.
I used, it's a secondhand one.
doing it?
Down the coast.
But like in your backyard orsomething or are you taking
No, no, no.
You set it up at a tennis court.
Okay.
Right.
I'm a member down there, so, and.
I love it.
So I just get out there when noone else is around because I'm too
(22:09):
embarrassed, because practicing issort of cheating in the comp I play in.
So and you're out there in the darkwith the spotlight on, you're right.
So, and you can set it, it can teach basicbeginners, or it can be used for top pros.
There's so many different settings.
Maybe I might need tocome down and use it.
(22:30):
Oh, look, Jess, it's so good.
When you come down,I'll put the cones down.
So I'll say I'm a bad coach, Jess, I'mreally, I'm a really harsh coach, right?
You don't want me toteach you anything, right?
But.
I remember when Chris fell off themotorbike, I was teaching her how to ride
a trail bike and wouldn't get back on it.
(22:50):
I just shouted, I said,get back on the bike.
And the other thing I'm really gettinginto a book called My Brother Jack.
I read it at school many years ago, andit's a fascinating, it's one of the top,
maybe 10 Australian books of all time,My Brother Jack, and, it's about two
brothers and growing up in Melbournein the 1920s and 1930s and 1940s.
(23:15):
And it's about, twodifferent types of Australia.
The good thing about theinternet is there's so many
resources about the author.
So you learn all about the author.
I went to visit where he grew up theother day the house is still there.
And so I'm just really enjoying thatand thinking about future episodes,
Jess, about cultural tourism.
(23:36):
And the importance, you know, howcities can make more of that place.
And one final thing, you know, I'm abig, I love the first Mad Max movie.
I think it was called somethingdifferent in America and they dubbed it.
That was the first MelGibson movie, Mad Max.
And it wasn't made on a big budget.
And it's this 1979 sort ofnear future dystopia where the
(24:00):
police are fighting bikie gangs.
And, on YouTube, there's all theseproductions about where all the scenes
are shot and in one of them, you know,all these tourists go to these spots
because they're just so into the movie.
And I know a number of thoseplaces, so it's, they're,
they're my podcast extras, Jess.
(24:20):
So I've just been rambling.
It's, it's a real pleasure.
I shouldn't say this, nothaving a guest, but we can just.
Absolutely.
Make sure you get to know the realus, the real people behind the mics.
Maybe not.
I think I prefer the glam imageon the front cover of all those
magazines that we appeared, Jess.
I hope our listeners like the AIand I hope we haven't, you know,
(24:45):
bored too many people by ourrambling, but it's just such a great
privilege to do this with you, Jess.
And I'm really proud of what we've doneand it's a very humbling, very humbling
experience to be part of all this.
Absolutely.
It's been a real pleasure and something Ihope we can continue long into the future.
(25:05):
Well, you said 500,that's 375 episodes to go.
I look forward to more podcastextras, your recommendations.
That's my new year's resolution is,come up with better podcast extras.
I
You don't need to do anything.
So this is a Christmas new yearand you'll probably be hearing it,
after Christmas, but all the bestto you and your family and thank
(25:29):
you so much for being part of, PX.
And, all the very best from me.
I'm sure from you, Jess.
Absolutely.
And remember listeners, we want tohear from you if you have comments,
suggestions for guests, or you want tosuggest yourself, please get in touch.
We, we love to hear from you.
So that's it.
(25:51):
I'm so looking forward to Christmas.
Me too.
Okay.
So we're diving into the worldof planning exchange today.
You know, that podcast, right?
Yeah.
It's got a fascinating premise,bringing together urban planners and
experts from all sorts of fields.
Right.
And I mean, all else sorts.
We're talking architecture.
But then you see an entomologist on theepisode list and you're like, wait, what?
(26:12):
It's definitely not yourtypical city planning podcast.
They're not afraid to getinto some really niche topics.
Like in episode PX109, they had DougTallamy on, you know, the entomologist.
Yeah.
You were telling me about him.
He's the one who wants usto rethink our lawns, right?
Exactly.
Exactly.
He argues that our obsession withthese perfectly manicured lawns is
actually really bad for the environment.
(26:33):
Which, okay, I have to admit, as someonewho loves her garden, it kind of blew
my mind when you first explained it.
Like I never would have thoughtabout the impact even something like
that has on the city's ecosystem.
Right.
But it makes sense whenyou think about it.
Cities aren't these isolated bubbles.
They're part of a larger ecosystem.
So, like, tell me more aboutwhat this Ptolemy guy proposes.
(26:54):
What's the alternative to a lawn?
Well, he's a big proponentof native plants.
He argues that they're not only better forthe environment, but they can actually be
really beautiful and low maintenance, too.
Okay, so maybe I don't have togive up on my garden entirely.
Definitely not.
It's more about being mindfulof the choices we make,
even in our own backyards.
I love that.
And this is what I'm excited to diginto with They're not just talking about
(27:18):
buildings and roads, they're talkingabout the whole fabric of the city.
Absolutely.
They look at how all thesedifferent elements interact
and influence one another.
Like for example, they had thisepisode, PX 121 with Calvin Poe.
Oh yeah.
I saw his name on the list.
He's an architect, right?
Yeah.
But he's also a really vocaladvocate for affordable housing.
In his episode, he argues thathousing should be considered
(27:41):
a fundamental human right.
Oh,
okay.
I did not see that coming.
That's a really powerful statement.
It is.
And it really makes you thinkabout the role of urban planning in
addressing these bigger social issues.
Right.
Like, if everyone deserves a placeto live, how does that change
how we design and build cities?
(28:01):
Exactly.
And that's what I loveabout planning exchange.
They're not afraid to tacklethese big, complex questions.
So it's not just aboutmaking cities functional.
It's about making them just.
Yeah.
And equitable.
Exactly.
It's about creating citiesthat work for everyone.
Okay.
I'm hooked.
This is way more interestingthan I thought it would be.
Right.
And we haven't even gottento the magician yet.
(28:23):
Wait.
There's a magician on this podcast?
There is.
And honestly, his episode mightbe one of the most thrilling.
thought provoking ones yet.
Yeah, so episode PX 98 features Tim Ellis.
He's like this big dealin the magic world.
Okay.
The artistic director of theMelbourne Magic Festival, no less.
Wow,
seriously.
Okay, so what does a magic festivalhave to do with urban planning?
That's the thing.
(28:43):
You wouldn't think there'd bea connection, but Ellis makes
this really compelling argument.
Go on, I'm listening.
He says, Think about what makesmagic so captivating, right?
It's that sense of wonder, the unexpected.
Okay, yeah.
And
he believes cities can be designedto evoke those same feelings.
So we're not talking about likebuilding giant top hats or anything?
Ha ha!
No, not exactly.
(29:05):
It's more about creating spacesthat spark our curiosity.
Or imagination.
Like, imagine you're walkingdown the street and you stumble
upon this hidden courtyard.
Okay.
And there's like this amazing artinstallation or maybe even just
a bunch of people playing music.
It's those little moments of delightthat make a city feel truly magical.
I agree with you with this.
(29:25):
Yeah.
It's about designing thosepauses, those breaths of fresh
air into the urban fabric.
You know, instead of justthese concrete jungles.
Yeah,
totally.
Those little surprisescan make a big difference.
Exactly.
And they don't have to be thesegrand, expensive things either.
Right.
Sometimes the simplest interventionscan have a huge impact, like a well
placed bench, a community garden,even just some really cool street art.
(29:49):
It's about beingintentional with the design.
Right.
Thinking about how peopleinteract with their surroundings.
Exactly.
And Planning Exchange, they're reallygood at highlighting these often
overlooked aspects of urban design.
Yeah, they seem to have aknack for finding guests who
challenge our assumptions.
Like, remember that episodewith Lucinda Hartley?
Oh yeah, PX37.
(30:11):
Yeah, where she's talking aboutusing data to, like, measure
the happiness of a neighborhood.
And it sounds kind of crazy atfirst, but then you're like, wait
a minute, maybe that's exactlywhat we should be focusing on.
Because at the end of the day, isn't thatwhat good urban planning is all about?
Creating places where people thrive.
Right.
It's not just about buildings andinfrastructure, it's about people.
Yeah.
And how they experience the city.
(30:32):
And that's something that PlanningExchange understands really well.
They're constantly bringing in thesediverse voices to show how urban
planning intersects with so manydifferent aspects of our lives.
Exactly.
Like it's not just about zoning laws andbuilding codes, it's about social justice.
It's about the environment.
It's about art and cultureand even magic apparently.
(30:53):
Right.
And speaking of art and culture, there'sthis other episode I wanted to mention.
Okay, hit me with it.
It's Px88 with Katherine Hagen.
Let me guess, she's an architect.
You know it.
But she's not just any architect.
She's worked on everythingfrom skyscrapers to historical
preservation projects.
She even led the team in charge ofprotecting Victoria's heritage buildings.
Wow.
Talk about a diverse portfolio.
(31:14):
Right.
And in her episode, she talksabout this really interesting
challenge that cities face.
So basically, it's this wholething about balancing a city's
history with its future.
Right, because you don't want to justbulldoze the past to make way for the new.
Exactly.
And Hagen, she talks about how importantit is to understand a city's story, you
know, its unique character, before youeven start thinking about new development.
(31:38):
Makes sense.
Like, you need to know whereyou've been before you can
figure out where you're going.
Right.
It's about finding ways to honor the old,While still making room for the new, and
sometimes that means getting creative.
You know, thinking outside the box.
Which is something PlanningExchange never shies away from.
They're always pushing the boundariesof what urban planning can be.
(31:59):
And they're not afraid to havea little fun with it either.
Definitely.
Like, remember that whole discussionabout designing cities for magic?
That was pretty out there.
But also kind of brilliant, right?
Who wouldn't wanna live in a citythat feels a little bit magical.
Exactly.
And it goes back to what we were talkingabout earlier with those moments of
delight, those unexpected encounters.
That's what makes city life so special.
Totally.
(32:19):
It's about creating spaces where peoplecan connect with each other, with their
surroundings, with the unexpected.
And that's what I appreciatemost about this deep dive into.
Planning Exchange.
They've shown us that urbanplanning, it's not just about bricks
and mortar, it's about people.
It's about creating a sense of place.
Exactly.
And that place, it should bea reflection of our values,
(32:42):
our aspirations, our dreams.
It should be a place where everyonefeels welcome and inspired.
Absolutely.
And I think Planning Exchange,they're doing a fantastic job of
starting those conversations, youknow, getting people excited about
the possibilities of urban planning.
Yeah, they've definitely gotme thinking differently about
the cities I live in and love.
And who knows, maybe this deep divewill inspire some of our listeners
(33:04):
to get involved in shaping thefuture of their own communities.
Because at the end of the day,urban planning, it's not just about
the experts, it's about all of us.
So if you're feeling inspired, headover to Planning Exchange and check
out their amazing lineup of episodes.
And hey, maybe you'll even be theone inspiring our next deep dive.
Now that would be something.
(33:24):
Thanks for listening.
If you would like to hear more of ourpodcasts, hit the follow button on Spotify
or the like button on SoundCloud orthe subscribe button in Apple podcasts.
Please also visit our Instagrampage, LinkedIn, or website for behind
the scenes footage of our podcastsand to get the latest on upcoming
or recently released episodes.
If you have any suggestions orfeedback, please get in touch via
(33:47):
our social media channels or byemailing planningexchange at gmail.
com.
A special shout out also to JackBabbage, who does such an incredible
job in producing this podcast.
This podcast is supportedby VPLA, Victorian Planning
Environmental Law Association.
Welcome to The Planning Exchange,where we interview built environment
professionals who are doinginteresting work beyond the ordinary.
I'm Jess Noonan, and I'm joinedby my colleague, Peter Jewell.
Pete, here we are, 10 years.
Did you ever think this day would come?
(00:26):
Yes, I did.
Yes.
I thought, you know, we will be talkingabout the podcast in 40 years time.
So 50 years after we start, we'llstill be talking about it and still
creating hopefully interesting podcasts.
So for those of you that don'tknow, we had our 10 year.
Party, it was an excellent night.
We had a bunch of our esteemed colleaguesthat have featured on the podcast.
(00:50):
We had some of our amazing sponsors andit was just a really, really lovely night.
Did you enjoy yourself?
Well, it got a bit outof hand, Jess, at times.
there's all sorts ofdebauchery, in business.
And you'll be happy that we celebratedin style and, everyone had a great time.
I hope there was veryinteresting speeches.
(01:12):
A good way of putting it.
Yes.
And, we had a fun time and a lotof good people around us, Jess,
who helped us make the podcast.
Absolutely.
So this is our 10th anniversary, Jess.
We started in 2014.
Yep.
That's right.
And
this is episode 125.
(01:34):
Now, listeners, Jess.
Suggests we go to episode 500.
I don't know whether I've got that inthe tank, but we will try and keep going.
But tonight, Jess, we've got avery special, well, not really
an interview, but a recording.
That's right.
We are going unstructured for one ofthe first episodes that we've ever done,
where you just get to hear from Peteand I, do you want to explain what we're
(01:58):
doing in the later part of the interview?
Pete.
It was some special guests.
My eldest Tom, who was very helpful atthe start of the podcast, the tech issues.
And also he produced some of themusic, which was on some of the outros.
I still remember meeting Tomat a cafe in Richmond in the
very early days of the podcast.
(02:20):
And I think he was probably inyear 10 or something like that.
He was very young, and he was sohelpful and so positive and he was
such a great asset to us in those earlydays and helping us set everything up.
He's been very well brought up,Tom asked, AI to do a review.
Of planning exchange podcast.
(02:41):
And all he said was, look atthis website, do a review.
So dear listener what you're about tohear after we finish up talking will
be a couple analyzing and discussingplanning exchange, just the robots.
And do you think it's anaccurate representation?
(03:01):
It's very flattering and parts, andI think Jess, it's like some of the
interviews, it wanders over the place.
They delve into, you know,long ago episodes and bring up
parts that I've forgotten Jess.
Was it through chat, GPT, that he did it?
I don't know which one, but it'sremarkable because Jess, you'll
(03:22):
recall in the early days of theinterviews with guests, you know we
would ask, how long till computersstart making planning decisions.
And our guests laughed and said,never, you know, computers could
never make decisions on planningapplications or requests or tribunals.
(03:43):
And here we are.
Have you used it yourself?
I do.
I do use it for all sorts of things.
Is there a way in which you're meant toask the questions to get the best result?
Cause I feel like every timeI've tried to use it, it's been
fairly hit and miss, to be honest.
You delve deeper because it gives verybroad answers at the start, but you
(04:04):
know, some, some things like just,I say, look, I'm a, I love tennis as
you know Jess, and I'm a hack player.
Chat GPT or whatever, what can I do?
What are the, what are the five things Ican concentrate on to be a better player?
And it gives really good advice.
Um, I mean, I keep, I keep tryingto chat up Siri, but she doesn't
(04:29):
respond.
So, you know, your point before about howwe used to ask all of our interviewers.
Sorry, interviewees, that, that question.
I think the other question we quiteregularly asked was about driverless cars
and how soon that was going to happen.
And that seems to have fallen off theradar a bit in terms of our industry.
(04:49):
There's not as muchtalk about that anymore.
There's obviously a lot oftalk about electric cars.
But hasn't been as much talk aboutdriverless cars for some time.
Well, it's interesting, Jess, if yougo back over the 10 years, certain
things were very, I don't know,probably you know, trendy, or faddish
(05:09):
and it's amazing how people getsucked into the next greatest thing.
Like I think, you know, you'regoing to die, but they're very,
you know, very popular in certaincircles, but there's lots of fashions
your general overview of, Isuppose, Jess, we should tell our
(05:31):
listeners how we do the podcast.
Absolutely.
I think that's probably evolved a lot overthe years as well, Pete, because in the
early days we had a single microphone.
We would, crowd around a verysmall table and talk to our guests.
Um, we then moved to meeting our guestsin a, you know, generally in a bigger
(05:53):
room around boardroom table with multiplemicrophones, a very professional setup.
If I, if I can say, and thenof course, COVID hit and we had
to pivot to a zoom only model
So that's where we are now.
Our format has changed somewhat inthat we used to meet up with our guests
for extensive sessions pre podcast.
(06:15):
We'd talk about questions andthemes and the like, and we would
have coffee, we might have lunch.
There was a verystructured way in which we.
Approached all of our guests.
And then of course, over the years,as we've become more comfortable,
we have become more efficient.
We know what we're doing and we generallydraft our questions and themes and
(06:38):
we send them to our guests ahead oftime and get their input on those,
make sure that they're comfortable.
Very rarely do we get muchrequested changes to the questions,
and then we record generally.
That's right.
So listeners, we approachdifferent people.
So Jess might, read, hearsomething or have a referral.
Likewise.
(06:59):
And then we go and approach those people.
Most of the time people respond yes.
I don't think we've actuallyhad many people say no.
Oh, jess, in my life I'vehad lots of rejection.
I feel like most people havebeen very, very generous.
Yeah.
Very open to the idea, verygenerous with their time.
(07:20):
We've been extremely lucky in thatregard and we've had really good guests.
And so then as you say, Jess,we send them what we call as Q
and T's, questions and themes.
And, you know, that involves a bit ofresearch by us, Jess, you don't want
to waste the subjects time and wedon't want to have a bad interview.
And I think it also dependson who we're interviewing, you
(07:43):
know, we have a very broad.
range of people that we interview.
We have people that.
Or almost professional podcastersthat do the rounds, I guess you'd
call it on lots of different podcasts.
So they're very seasoned at it.
A lot of people that have never donea podcast before and are very nervous.
So we have to sort of accommodatefor both types of people or both
(08:05):
backgrounds, the professionals andthe novice I guess we would call them.
So hence why we do.
Generally approach the interviewin a somewhat structured manner.
You mean people who've beeninterviewed on podcasts,
people that have done lots of podcasts.
Yeah.
So I find.
When we first, the first time we interviewsomeone is when we meet them and we
(08:28):
meet them online and, we have a chatfor maybe five or 10 minutes, Jess.
And in that short time we have to makethem comfortable, I suppose, Jess.
Yeah.
Tell some bad jokes.
I always say to some of the guests,I say, look, we're going to make you
famous or, and you realize that some goatherder in the Gobi desert is going to
(08:49):
be hanging off every word that you say.
And so this is, you've got to make theguest comfortable and also that it's
going to be a professional interview.
We, this is a passion project for bothof us, Jess, you've got full time work.
You've got.
Heaps of things going on familywise and everything like that.
(09:09):
But we still try to makeit the best, I think.
Absolutely.
And I do like our interviews when weinterview our podcast cousins, with
other people who produce planningrelated podcasts, it's always good to,
and we call them our cousin, but it'salways good to hear how they go with it.
Compare notes.
(09:31):
And so we have the interview andwe give the questions and themes
to our subject, but we do go offon tangents, Jess, quite a bit.
Yes, absolutely.
I think you go off on sharper,more distant tangents than anyone.
Lies.
Yeah, no, you just chase them downon, you know, like off you go.
(09:52):
I don't know.
And listeners, when we record,we don't have our video on, we'll
be just texting each other.
Um, but, and the reason we don't have thevideo on is for audio quality not because
we don't like to look at each other
and, and thank you, Jess and an apologysometimes listeners, if the audio is a
(10:14):
bit crackly, that's normally our guest.
Um, But we have a great audio engineerin Jack, Jack Bavage, who, manages
to put fixes all our blemishes, Jess.
Makes us sound somewhat professionalwhen it's perhaps not always
as professional as it could be.
(10:34):
That's right.
So on the AI topic, Jess, I've heardfrom people that they would prefer AI
to assess their proposals rather thanthe actual people who do review them.
I mean,
it's interesting that you say that I wasthinking about this recently, you know,
I think when we first started having thisconversation about, and then, you know,
(10:56):
as you mentioned before, that we did askthis question to a lot of our guests in
the early days, the response was always,well, no, that wouldn't be possible,
particularly in the context that wepredominantly work in Pete because we have
a lot of subjective, you know, policy andsubjective policy directions and the like,
which make it, Almost near impossible.
(11:18):
I think for a machine to make adecision on those sorts of things.
There's also been a conversationobviously about design and the fact that
our subjective and discretionary typecontrols produce better design outcomes.
Now.
That's probably up for debate.
And I'm sure some of our colleaguesin other states and countries
(11:38):
would disagree with that.
And I'm sure that there's probablyways around that, but it's interesting
now in the current climate thatwe're in, in our work context,
and I won't get too specific here.
Um, so as not to bore our listeners,but, you know, I think we're very much
moving towards a system that is somewhatautomated, you know, it's a bit more
(12:00):
of a tick the box system as opposedto being a discretionary type system.
And I know this works in otherstates, but I wonder whether that
change of direction or tact issomewhat purposeful, knowing that.
Machines would then be able to makemore of the decisions and not, not
saying that would be all of thedecisions, but certainly the low
(12:21):
hanging fruit could somewhat bemanaged or, decided on through AI.
What do you think?
It has a big role, Jess, and, you know,I always think back that the blue collar
workforce, the industrial workforce wasdecimated by industrialization and, you
(12:43):
know, in the seventies and eighties, alot of factories were just got smashed
by, automation and things like that.
And it never really hit the whitecollar sector, which we are in.
I suspect AI is just going to bea very efficient tool for a number
of workplaces to reduce workers.
(13:04):
I think, you know, when it can programthings so well, like you'll hear
listeners, I mean, it's remarkablethat the two people, I'll call them
people, entities who review us.
I mean, you could say that theywere human in every way, Jess.
Absolutely.
(13:24):
And so I think AI is, I think theprogress is going to be incredible.
I'm always positive that Ithink the future is our friend.
I think it's all positive things,but Jess, where to from here?
What sort of areas, what sort of topicswould you like to explore going forward?
I think we've had some reallyinteresting ones this year.
(13:45):
And we've interviewed, Well, maybe not somuch this year, but particularly over the
last couple of years, we've interviewed alot of people in the academic space, which
has been a really good way of breaking upsome of the other guests that we have had.
Some of them have been really interesting.
I really enjoy hearing about thenew research that's coming out
that might potentially influenceour profession moving forward.
(14:09):
So I've really enjoyed that andwould like to continue doing that.
I think there's lots ofdifferent opportunities here.
I mean, as we keep saying, Pete, we'renever short of people to interview.
And look, I think that's also been,influenced by the fact that we have.
We've interviewed peoplefrom all over the world.
(14:29):
You know, we're not limited to Victoria.
We're not limited to Australia wherewe've interviewed that many people
internationally now that we probablycan't even call ourselves a Victorian
based or Australian based podcast
Trans global but I hope, I hope dearlisteners, you don't get upset with
our Aussie accents, just absolutely.
(14:50):
And you know, it all is aboutnew ideas, Jess, you're right.
And, you know, we have to be open tonew ideas and new ways of doing things.
And I think we should alsobe really open to failure.
Absolutely.
Try things to fail, because Iget frustrated with the planning
orthodoxy, Jess, you know, there'sa set formula to, for baking a cake.
(15:15):
And I think that there's lotsof different cakes you can bake.
Of course, you have to follow theessential, approaches, but I think that
there's lots of things we don't know yet,but we have to be open to those things.
Absolutely.
And I suspect the next 10 years is goingto be as revolutionary in city development
(15:35):
and planning than the last 30, 40 years.
I'm feeling that we are on thecusp of some great new things.
I also thought it would be interestingto talk about, the feedback that
we get, which is few and farbetween, to be honest, we very much
appreciate feedback when we getit, but we don't get a lot of it.
Well, some of it's negative and some
(15:59):
of it's definitely negative,but we get a lot of positive
and positive.
And, and also even the, and you know, wereceived one the other day, dear listener.
And it was couched in, I'm a big fan ofthe show, but I, but I've got a feeling
that you are leaning in one, one way.
Yeah.
I am.
Yep.
I write this as I want to keeplistening and I don't want you to
(16:20):
change anything, but just I've gotthis feeling, which, which is a
really lovely thing to do, Jess.
I mean, we produce the podcast andthen we push publish and off it goes
and we try to make them interestingand we try to let the subject speak.
Jess and I are, very careful not to let.
(16:42):
Our personal opinions orpreferences get in the way because
we don't want to make a partisan.
In any way, Jess, what do you think?
Yeah, absolutely.
We try and let the person talk andwe challenge them on points if we see
fit, but it's really about recordingsome of these really important
(17:04):
professionals in our industry.
And, we were talking before Pete thaton a slightly somber note that we've
actually Had a number of the peoplethat we've interviewed over the years,
pass away, which has been extremelysad, but we're proud that we can
preserve, their memory and some oftheir professional background and their
(17:24):
thoughts and ideas on certain things.
And that will be there forever.
For their families, for theirfriends, their colleagues to
perhaps listen to and, reflect on.
Well you know, from ''Elegy Writtenin a County Churchyard', the paths
of glory lead but to the grave'.
Jess, you know how I like recitingpoetry and things like that.
Absolutely.
;The paths of glorylead but to the grave.'
(17:45):
So that's where it goes, but, so we'vegot with the podcast, we obviously
got the interview and then we havethe more lighthearted part, which
is podcast extra culture corner.
And that was pinched from a podcastI really liked, which is no longer
going 'London calling', but that isa different type of segment, Jess.
(18:08):
Yes, it is.
And one that always makes me feel like Idon't have much of a life at the moment.
You've got a very full life.
What are you saying?
But, but, and what do you thinkthat segment brings forward, Jess?
It's a really interesting segment inthat it shows us or tells us a lot about,
(18:29):
the person that we're interviewing.
And I think my favorite interviewsover the years have been the ones
where, cause we often say to ourguests, right, this does not need to
be planning related or work related.
And I would say that 80 percentof people still recommend
something that's work related.
So I always find it really interestingand I love when people recommend
(18:50):
something that's not work related, causeit really shows their true personality
or shows you something more about them.
And you know, certainly for me,mine absolutely never work related
minor, always a terrible book orterrible TV show that I'm watching.
I think I recommendedomelettes the other day, Jess.
Well, mine today, isn'tgoing to be too dissimilar,
(19:12):
but it is fun.
So do you listen?
We really enjoy what we do.
We muddle along.
It is, you know, we're independent.
We have got some sponsors, butno one ever influences how we
approach things or what we say.
And we really enjoy what we do.
I think Jess and 10 years on, it's,you know, we've both gone through a lot
(19:32):
of things in that last 10 years, but
I said to someone the other day, Oh,we're not professional podcasters.
And they said, what are you talking about?
You've been doing it for 10 years.
You're doing podcasting beforeanyone else was doing podcasting.
Of course you're a professional.
We did start early and, I think, it'sthe people who do other podcasts.
Everyone's very supportiveof each other like that.
(19:54):
I think we are one of Australia'slongest running independent city
affairs, you know, planning podcasts.
And also people are come and goingsadly they do, but we're also
looking for a big new sponsor.
So I'll just put that out.
So if you, if you know anyonewith pot loads of money.
If you're very altruistic and want tohelp us out, they can send us an email and
(20:18):
who perhaps wants to increasetheir coverage of their, of their
company or increase the, um,If they're associated with us,
yes, they will have enormous success.
We associate with our brandplanning exchange or PX.
Now, Jess, what, uh, podcast extra culturecorner, whatever you got to for that.
(20:43):
Well, not dissimilar to your omelets.
I've been making a lot of pizzas recently.
Very short on time at the moment, life'sjust pretty hectic leading into Christmas.
And we've started making pizzaswith the kids, generally only once
a week, not feeding them pizza everysingle night, but it's a really
nice, fun sort of family activity.
Everyone gets involved.
Kids roll pizza dough and, you know,they'll spread the pasata out on the base
(21:07):
and put the herbs on and all the rest.
And it's been really nice.
This is a really, it really, areally nice way to end the day
and everyone can be part of it.
Everyone's learning something.
It's been nice.
So I really haven't had time toread any books or watch any movies
in the last couple of weeks.
(21:27):
It's all been a bit hectic.
So what about you, Pete?
Oh, well, since we haven't got a guest,Jess, I've got maybe two or three and
You always outdo me . You've alwaysgot very highbrow recommendations.
No, no.
It's once I've, I'm completelyobsessed with tennis, as you know,
Jess and, my tennis game needssome help apart from chat, GPT.
(21:48):
So I bought myself a ball machine.
Jess, I used one.
I used, it's a secondhand one.
doing it?
Down the coast.
But like in your backyard orsomething or are you taking
No, no, no.
You set it up at a tennis court.
Okay.
Right.
I'm a member down there, so, and.
I love it.
So I just get out there when noone else is around because I'm too
(22:09):
embarrassed, because practicing issort of cheating in the comp I play in.
So and you're out there in the darkwith the spotlight on, you're right.
So, and you can set it, it can teach basicbeginners, or it can be used for top pros.
There's so many different settings.
Maybe I might need tocome down and use it.
(22:30):
Oh, look, Jess, it's so good.
When you come down,I'll put the cones down.
So I'll say I'm a bad coach, Jess, I'mreally, I'm a really harsh coach, right?
You don't want me toteach you anything, right?
But.
I remember when Chris fell off themotorbike, I was teaching her how to ride
a trail bike and wouldn't get back on it.
(22:50):
I just shouted, I said,get back on the bike.
And the other thing I'm really gettinginto a book called My Brother Jack.
I read it at school many years ago, andit's a fascinating, it's one of the top,
maybe 10 Australian books of all time,My Brother Jack, and, it's about two
brothers and growing up in Melbournein the 1920s and 1930s and 1940s.
(23:15):
And it's about, twodifferent types of Australia.
The good thing about theinternet is there's so many
resources about the author.
So you learn all about the author.
I went to visit where he grew up theother day the house is still there.
And so I'm just really enjoying thatand thinking about future episodes,
Jess, about cultural tourism.
(23:36):
And the importance, you know, howcities can make more of that place.
And one final thing, you know, I'm abig, I love the first Mad Max movie.
I think it was called somethingdifferent in America and they dubbed it.
That was the first MelGibson movie, Mad Max.
And it wasn't made on a big budget.
And it's this 1979 sort ofnear future dystopia where the
(24:00):
police are fighting bikie gangs.
And, on YouTube, there's all theseproductions about where all the scenes
are shot and in one of them, you know,all these tourists go to these spots
because they're just so into the movie.
And I know a number of thoseplaces, so it's, they're,
they're my podcast extras, Jess.
(24:20):
So I've just been rambling.
It's, it's a real pleasure.
I shouldn't say this, nothaving a guest, but we can just.
Absolutely.
Make sure you get to know the realus, the real people behind the mics.
Maybe not.
I think I prefer the glam imageon the front cover of all those
magazines that we appeared, Jess.
I hope our listeners like the AIand I hope we haven't, you know,
(24:45):
bored too many people by ourrambling, but it's just such a great
privilege to do this with you, Jess.
And I'm really proud of what we've doneand it's a very humbling, very humbling
experience to be part of all this.
Absolutely.
It's been a real pleasure and something Ihope we can continue long into the future.
(25:05):
Well, you said 500,that's 375 episodes to go.
I look forward to more podcastextras, your recommendations.
That's my new year's resolution is,come up with better podcast extras.
I
You don't need to do anything.
So this is a Christmas new yearand you'll probably be hearing it,
after Christmas, but all the bestto you and your family and thank
(25:29):
you so much for being part of, PX.
And, all the very best from me.
I'm sure from you, Jess.
Absolutely.
And remember listeners, we want tohear from you if you have comments,
suggestions for guests, or you want tosuggest yourself, please get in touch.
We, we love to hear from you.
So that's it.
(25:51):
I'm so looking forward to Christmas.
Me too.
Okay.
So we're diving into the worldof planning exchange today.
You know, that podcast, right?
Yeah.
It's got a fascinating premise,bringing together urban planners and
experts from all sorts of fields.
Right.
And I mean, all else sorts.
We're talking architecture.
But then you see an entomologist on theepisode list and you're like, wait, what?
(26:12):
It's definitely not yourtypical city planning podcast.
They're not afraid to getinto some really niche topics.
Like in episode PX109, they had DougTallamy on, you know, the entomologist.
Yeah.
You were telling me about him.
He's the one who wants usto rethink our lawns, right?
Exactly.
Exactly.
He argues that our obsession withthese perfectly manicured lawns is
actually really bad for the environment.
(26:33):
Which, okay, I have to admit, as someonewho loves her garden, it kind of blew
my mind when you first explained it.
Like I never would have thoughtabout the impact even something like
that has on the city's ecosystem.
Right.
But it makes sense whenyou think about it.
Cities aren't these isolated bubbles.
They're part of a larger ecosystem.
So, like, tell me more aboutwhat this Ptolemy guy proposes.
(26:54):
What's the alternative to a lawn?
Well, he's a big proponentof native plants.
He argues that they're not only better forthe environment, but they can actually be
really beautiful and low maintenance, too.
Okay, so maybe I don't have togive up on my garden entirely.
Definitely not.
It's more about being mindfulof the choices we make,
even in our own backyards.
I love that.
And this is what I'm excited to diginto with They're not just talking about
(27:18):
buildings and roads, they're talkingabout the whole fabric of the city.
Absolutely.
They look at how all thesedifferent elements interact
and influence one another.
Like for example, they had thisepisode, PX 121 with Calvin Poe.
Oh yeah.
I saw his name on the list.
He's an architect, right?
Yeah.
But he's also a really vocaladvocate for affordable housing.
In his episode, he argues thathousing should be considered
(27:41):
a fundamental human right.
Oh,
okay.
I did not see that coming.
That's a really powerful statement.
It is.
And it really makes you thinkabout the role of urban planning in
addressing these bigger social issues.
Right.
Like, if everyone deserves a placeto live, how does that change
how we design and build cities?
(28:01):
Exactly.
And that's what I loveabout planning exchange.
They're not afraid to tacklethese big, complex questions.
So it's not just aboutmaking cities functional.
It's about making them just.
Yeah.
And equitable.
Exactly.
It's about creating citiesthat work for everyone.
Okay.
I'm hooked.
This is way more interestingthan I thought it would be.
Right.
And we haven't even gottento the magician yet.
(28:23):
Wait.
There's a magician on this podcast?
There is.
And honestly, his episode mightbe one of the most thrilling.
thought provoking ones yet.
Yeah, so episode PX 98 features Tim Ellis.
He's like this big dealin the magic world.
Okay.
The artistic director of theMelbourne Magic Festival, no less.
Wow,
seriously.
Okay, so what does a magic festivalhave to do with urban planning?
That's the thing.
(28:43):
You wouldn't think there'd bea connection, but Ellis makes
this really compelling argument.
Go on, I'm listening.
He says, Think about what makesmagic so captivating, right?
It's that sense of wonder, the unexpected.
Okay, yeah.
And
he believes cities can be designedto evoke those same feelings.
So we're not talking about likebuilding giant top hats or anything?
Ha ha!
No, not exactly.
(29:05):
It's more about creating spacesthat spark our curiosity.
Or imagination.
Like, imagine you're walkingdown the street and you stumble
upon this hidden courtyard.
Okay.
And there's like this amazing artinstallation or maybe even just
a bunch of people playing music.
It's those little moments of delightthat make a city feel truly magical.
I agree with you with this.
(29:25):
Yeah.
It's about designing thosepauses, those breaths of fresh
air into the urban fabric.
You know, instead of justthese concrete jungles.
Yeah,
totally.
Those little surprisescan make a big difference.
Exactly.
And they don't have to be thesegrand, expensive things either.
Right.
Sometimes the simplest interventionscan have a huge impact, like a well
placed bench, a community garden,even just some really cool street art.
(29:49):
It's about beingintentional with the design.
Right.
Thinking about how peopleinteract with their surroundings.
Exactly.
And Planning Exchange, they're reallygood at highlighting these often
overlooked aspects of urban design.
Yeah, they seem to have aknack for finding guests who
challenge our assumptions.
Like, remember that episodewith Lucinda Hartley?
Oh yeah, PX37.
(30:11):
Yeah, where she's talking aboutusing data to, like, measure
the happiness of a neighborhood.
And it sounds kind of crazy atfirst, but then you're like, wait
a minute, maybe that's exactlywhat we should be focusing on.
Because at the end of the day, isn't thatwhat good urban planning is all about?
Creating places where people thrive.
Right.
It's not just about buildings andinfrastructure, it's about people.
Yeah.
And how they experience the city.
(30:32):
And that's something that PlanningExchange understands really well.
They're constantly bringing in thesediverse voices to show how urban
planning intersects with so manydifferent aspects of our lives.
Exactly.
Like it's not just about zoning laws andbuilding codes, it's about social justice.
It's about the environment.
It's about art and cultureand even magic apparently.
(30:53):
Right.
And speaking of art and culture, there'sthis other episode I wanted to mention.
Okay, hit me with it.
It's Px88 with Katherine Hagen.
Let me guess, she's an architect.
You know it.
But she's not just any architect.
She's worked on everythingfrom skyscrapers to historical
preservation projects.
She even led the team in charge ofprotecting Victoria's heritage buildings.
Wow.
Talk about a diverse portfolio.
(31:14):
Right.
And in her episode, she talksabout this really interesting
challenge that cities face.
So basically, it's this wholething about balancing a city's
history with its future.
Right, because you don't want to justbulldoze the past to make way for the new.
Exactly.
And Hagen, she talks about how importantit is to understand a city's story, you
know, its unique character, before youeven start thinking about new development.
(31:38):
Makes sense.
Like, you need to know whereyou've been before you can
figure out where you're going.
Right.
It's about finding ways to honor the old,While still making room for the new, and
sometimes that means getting creative.
You know, thinking outside the box.
Which is something PlanningExchange never shies away from.
They're always pushing the boundariesof what urban planning can be.
(31:59):
And they're not afraid to havea little fun with it either.
Definitely.
Like, remember that whole discussionabout designing cities for magic?
That was pretty out there.
But also kind of brilliant, right?
Who wouldn't wanna live in a citythat feels a little bit magical.
Exactly.
And it goes back to what we were talkingabout earlier with those moments of
delight, those unexpected encounters.
That's what makes city life so special.
Totally.
(32:19):
It's about creating spaces where peoplecan connect with each other, with their
surroundings, with the unexpected.
And that's what I appreciatemost about this deep dive into.
Planning Exchange.
They've shown us that urbanplanning, it's not just about bricks
and mortar, it's about people.
It's about creating a sense of place.
Exactly.
And that place, it should bea reflection of our values,
(32:42):
our aspirations, our dreams.
It should be a place where everyonefeels welcome and inspired.
Absolutely.
And I think Planning Exchange,they're doing a fantastic job of
starting those conversations, youknow, getting people excited about
the possibilities of urban planning.
Yeah, they've definitely gotme thinking differently about
the cities I live in and love.
And who knows, maybe this deep divewill inspire some of our listeners
(33:04):
to get involved in shaping thefuture of their own communities.
Because at the end of the day,urban planning, it's not just about
the experts, it's about all of us.
So if you're feeling inspired, headover to Planning Exchange and check
out their amazing lineup of episodes.
And hey, maybe you'll even be theone inspiring our next deep dive.
Now that would be something.
(33:24):
Thanks for listening.
If you would like to hear more of ourpodcasts, hit the follow button on Spotify
or the like button on SoundCloud orthe subscribe button in Apple podcasts.
Please also visit our Instagrampage, LinkedIn, or website for behind
the scenes footage of our podcastsand to get the latest on upcoming
or recently released episodes.
If you have any suggestions orfeedback, please get in touch via
(33:47):
our social media channels or byemailing planningexchange at gmail.
com.
A special shout out also to JackBabbage, who does such an incredible
job in producing this podcast.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.