May 22, 2025 • 72 mins
When a health scare and personal loss collided, Michelle Joy Kramer found a new path—one rooted in healing, purpose, and plants. A PLANTSTRONG retreat alum and concierge health coach, Michelle shares how she shifted from vegetarianism to a whole food, plant-based lifestyle, dramatically improving her health and inspiring others to do the same.
In this episode, Michelle reveals how she:
- Lowered her cholesterol and improved her health in months
- Navigates social settings and restaurants with intention
- Uses tech tools like Garmin for accountability
- Integrates mindfulness and meditation into client care
- Coaches high-powered professionals with compassion and clarity
Michelle’s journey is a powerful reminder that with the right mindset and support, transformation is always possible.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:46):
I'm Rip Esselstyn and you'relistening to the PLANTSTRONG podcast.
What happens when a healthscare and deep personal loss become
the spark for a total lifetransformation? This week you're
going to meet powerhousehealth coach, Michelle Joy Kramer,
who turned her grief intopersonal growth. That's coming up
(01:10):
right after these words fromPlantstrong. I love reconnecting
with past Plantstrong retreatattendees and hearing how this lifestyle
is unfolding in their lives.Back in 2017, Michelle Joy Kramer
(01:30):
joined us at a Planstrongimmersion in Black Mountain, North
Carolina. At the time, she wasjust beginning her whole food plant
based journey, sparked by aserious health event involving her
partner and a deepermotivation that was rooted in her
father's health struggles andsubsequent death. Since then, Michelle
(01:55):
has transformed her own lifeand now coaches high powered professionals
towards better health. In thisepisode, she shares how she moved
from vegetarianism to embracea fully plant strong lifestyle and
dramatically lowering hercholesterol while navigating the
social challenges that comewith making such a bold shift. She
(02:18):
also shares her tips forcoaching these business executives,
many of whom are men. Andbelieve me, it's not necessarily
what you may think. Here tospread joy and Plan Strong love is
Michelle Joy Kramer. MichelleJoy Kramer, welcome to the Plan Strong
(02:39):
podcast.
Thank you. RIP Esselstyn.
Yes. Yes. Where am I talkingto you from today?
You're talking to me fromNaples, Florida.
Naples, Florida. Do you likeNaples? Love it, huh? How long you
been there?
I've been here almost 14 years.
(03:03):
Did you guys get hit prettyhard by one of those hurricanes last
year or two?
Yes, we did.
Yeah. How did your place survive?
Very lucky. No flooding and.Yeah, we were very lucky this year.
Last year.
Tell me, Joy. Michelle. Joy. Isee Joy and I'm like, God, do people
(03:27):
ever call you Joy? Is thatever? They do.
They do. My mother, I was thefirstborn, so my mother said I was
the joy of her life, and shecame up with Michelle Joy. And I
started using that in mybranding actually, 15 years ago.
And my teacher who started myschool, Integrative Nutrition, Joshua
(03:51):
Rosenthal, he calls me Joy anda bunch of my other friends call
me Joy, so.
Yes. Yeah. Well, I have adaughter named Hope, so I see Joy,
and, you know, it kind of.They run in parallel paths, so. So
if I call you Joy, don't holdit against me.
I love it.
Good, good, good.
(04:13):
I feel a lot of joy being herewith you, just so you know.
Yeah. Yeah. Well, we're gonnahave a joyful time here discussing
all the great things you're upto. Tell me about your personal journey
to kind of whole food plantbased nutrition. How did that begin?
Ah, feels like a lifetime ago.It started about eight years ago
(04:38):
and I was here in Naples,Florida and my partner, my girlfriend
at the time had. We were goingout for an evening and all of a sudden
her blood pressure went up andwe ended up in the hospital that
evening. And she had a heartissue, blockage. And it just happened
(05:02):
very quickly. She was in herlate 40s. Very, just surprising.
She had lost a lot of weightand made some healthy changes in
her life. I wasn't whole foodplant based at the time, and neither
was she. And I was alwaysvegetarian, but never whole food
plant based. And it reallyjust in one moment, I mean, my whole
(05:22):
life changed. And she had acouple stents put in and it ended
up being a coincidence thather uncle knows your dad. And so
we ended up after the surgery,we flew to Ohio. We were in your
(05:44):
dad's and mom's living room.And I remember your dad saying, no
oil. Yeah, I didn't know whathe was talking about.
That's right. No oil in the car.
No oil. Well, I had so muchoil in our house that, you know,
MCT oil.
(06:05):
Right.
I'm an Ironman athlete, so thecoconut oil, all of that I thought
was really good for me andjust completely changed our diets
in, in a very short period of time.
Okay, so. So you kind of wentdown the, the path initially because
(06:27):
of this health scare that yourpartner had. But tell me about, like,
where were you personally onyour, your journey at that time?
Were you healthy, unhealthy?What were you like?
Well, I thought I was healthy.I felt great. You know, nothing was
(06:47):
wrong. I had cholesterol,total cholesterol over 200. I thought
that was normal. I have ahistory of heart disease in my family,
so it was always a thought forme. But I thought, I'm an athlete,
I have low body fat, I feelgood. So I thought I was, I thought
(07:09):
I was healthy and felt good.Little did I know, you know, and
in three months from doing thewhole food plant based diet, my cholesterol
went from 200 to around 1 48.Yeah, I mean, huge changes. My LDL
went down, triglycerides,everything. And that's when I got
(07:32):
hooked. And then I startedfeeling better, recovery quicker.
So to answer your question, Inever, I always felt good, but I
never knew how good I couldactually feel. You know, that was
the real turning point for mebecause I already Felt good.
Right, right, right. So youwent from good to great, right? Yeah.
(07:53):
Right? Yeah, yeah. You didn'tknow there was any improvement there,
but there. But there was.That's great.
Yep.
And your, your partner at thetime who had the stents put in and
kind of was in trouble. Wasshe able to stick with this or, or
not, do you know?
No.
(08:13):
No. Okay. Okay.
She tried. She tried. It wasreally difficult. I think it was
a strain on our relationship.
What was you mean? Just that,just trying to get her to, to follow
the lifestyle.
Yes. I became militant aroundit all because I was feeling so good.
I saw the results, I saw theresults that she had in a few months.
(08:37):
We, and we actually went andsaw Dr. Delaney, who's a cardiologist
in Port Charlotte, a couplehours from us. So she was monitoring
her and we didn't have any, wedon't have any lifestyle medicine
doctors in Naples that arecardiologists. So we drove to Dr.
Delaney and had her monitorher. And I remember we got on a call
(09:01):
with her maybe three monthsafter being on the diet. And my girlfriend
saw all the changes. Thedifficult part was we were traveling
and eating out and enjoyingthe lifestyle. And after we left
your dad's house, we werelike, we were so depressed that we
drove to a pizza parlor. We'relike, how are we ever gonna do this?
(09:24):
But we did and there wereresults. I just think it was difficult
to maintain that lifestyle ofso called fun eating out all the
time and being this, you know,being on this way of eating.
Yeah, well, you've, you'veobviously figured it out because
(09:45):
it's been over eight, nineyears now that you've been doing
this. How do you navigateeating out now that you, that you're
a savvy, whole food, plantbased ninja warrior?
I love that. I don't really, Idon't eat out much. I don't really
feel good when I eat out, evenif I get things steamed and everything.
(10:08):
And I cook a lot at home and Ithink, which is what I teach in my
practice is as a health coach,is ways to eat on the go. And so,
you know, like you as atriathlete. I've always, I've never
been. I always like to saypeople live to eat or they eat to
live. And I've always been oneto just find quick ways to eat. So
(10:34):
for me, food is just fuel. Andso I have found ways to find whole
food plant based nutrition onthe go. Like your products with plant
strong and I call your, yourproducts actually the Hurricane food
for Naples, because we cangrab all the food, you know, order
the food and it's ready to goand you can eat it when you have
(10:55):
no electricity. So I just havefound ways to help people navigate
through, you know, that aren'tin the kitchen. And that's how I
live. So I don't really eatout much because I love to eat at
home. I've learned ways, youknow, enjoy my food at home.
(11:16):
Yeah. So let's go back eightyears ago. You had this incident
with your partner. What wereyou doing at the time, as a career?
I was a health. I'm a healthcoach. I've been a health coach for
15 years.
Okay.
@ that time, I was healthcoaching at a television station
(11:37):
in Miami, wlrn, which is alsopart of npr. And so I was teaching
and I was also building my oneon one practice with health coaching.
And again, it was more aroundvegetarian, you know, eggs and fish
and lots of oils. So I washealth coaching and online as well.
(12:00):
Built an online practice.
Right. So my, My understandingfrom visiting. Visiting your website
and reading up on you is thatyou now, you know, you run a global
private concierge healthcoaching practice, which is fantastic.
I want to dive into a littlebit more about that and who your
(12:24):
clientele are, but before wedo, because I. Because in doing my
research, I think it reallyinforms where your passions lie right
now with who you're coaching.I'd love for you to kind of share
with the plan, strongaudience, a little bit about your
relationship with your fatherand what happened there.
(12:48):
That's a big one.
Well, we like going big.
Of course we do. So my fathercommitted suicide when I was nine
and he was overweight. He wassuper successful. He was an attorney.
I grew up with my dad and mygrandfather, both attorneys. So learned,
(13:11):
respected both of them verymuch. My grandfather passed as well,
but with my dad, he was theclosest person to me. I was nine
years old. Just completely. Ialways like to say that's what had
me become an ironman or ironwoman. It was that I was just driven
at nine years old. I'm theoldest child. I have two sisters,
(13:35):
one that passed away a yearand a half ago. They're identical.
They were identical twins. SoI kind of became the. I call it the
man of the house, care of mymom and my sisters, and just had
this determination andstructure and at such an early age.
And that was the way that Iwent through my grief. I started
(13:58):
running probably two daysafter I learned that my father passed
away. My best Friend in theneighborhood, his brother was a runner.
So we went on the track and itwas the first time that I felt some
relief and that's where mypassion for running began. And it
was a way for me to, you know,just, yeah, grieve my father. It
(14:23):
was a huge loss for me.
What do you think it was aboutexercise, running that was able to
temporarily soothe the pain?
I think for me, now that Iknow the science, I would say endorphins,
(14:44):
but I didn't know whatendorphins and serotonin and dopamine
were back then. So it's kindof having all of those chemicals
happening for me in the brain,but also this feeling of freedom,
like the wind blowing, beingoutdoors, the nature. I just felt
so good during and after. Itbecame a social thing for me, which
(15:07):
I'm now doing as well inrunning groups as an adult. So it
became like the socialactivity with my friends. But we'd
be active and moving, sothere's something with that moving
and movement. And I wouldthink of my dad when I would run.
We did paper routes togetherwhen he was living. So I started
very early on in the dark. Imean, he'd wake me up out of bed
(15:30):
at 5am I still get up at 4amnow in the mornings. So there's something
about that quiet in the darkand that time alone that I enjoy.
So was it your paper routethat your father was helping you
with at 4am?
Sorry, it could have been hispaper route really.
(15:54):
So he's an attorney and healso has a newspaper route?
Yes.
Why?
He's. I think towards the end,before he passed, he. And I know
not think my mother sharedwith me that he struggled, he struggled
in his career towards the endhe struggled being around people.
He put on probably 50 pounds.He was overweight when he passed
(16:16):
away, very depressed, lots ofdepression. So I think towards the
end he was struggling to beout with people and. Yeah, so that.
So he had a couple jobs tomake ends meet.
Got it, Got it. Understood.And so from what I read, it sounds
(16:40):
like you also suffered withdepression for a period of. Of time
there and some binge eating.Anything you'd like to say about
those. Those things?
Oh, you really read my story.That was a big. Actually that story
I put out on my website was abig deal for me to really share myself,
(17:05):
you know, with people too. AndI would say the binge eating and
depression have been a journeyand I've always been involved in
something called Landmark.I've been involved with Landmark
for 25 years. And I thinkbetween that and transcendental meditation
that I do and things that I'velearned ways each day, certain rituals
(17:30):
to, I like to say, manage. Ithink that's where the diet plays
a huge role in the, the shiftthat happened eight years ago with
the plant based, that if Iate, when I used to eat refined sugar,
I would feel depressed. Andthis is something I share with my
clients, that I got offrefined sugar way before I was plant
(17:54):
based about 20 years ago. AndI was on Prozac and Wellbutrin. And
you know, these young clientsthat hire me, their parents hire
me for them that are onantidepressants today, they're eating
refined sugar. And that's thefirst place I go with people. My
depression went away.
(18:14):
Give me an idea. When you sayrefined sugar and your clients that
are on these meds and you getthem off refined sugar, how do you,
what does that look like asfar as the food that they're eating?
Is it soda? Is it soda pops?Is it, is it bread? Is it sugar in
their coffee? What is it?
(18:35):
All of it. All of it. I, whatI do is I add in things for my clients
so I don't take away thesugar. You know, some clients will
say, you know, especially mymales, my corporate executives, they'll
say, all right, I'm done withthe sugar. For my lady clients, it
takes a little bit of time.For them it's a little different.
(19:01):
Where by adding in things,let's say adding in some grains,
you know, adding in refined.Let me go back to your question.
Refined sugar, I mean, likewhite sugar, brown sugar, things
like you said, that are inbread and things like that candy,
it could be anything. But whenI add in things, whether it's even
(19:23):
just drinking more water, youknow, people are so dehydrated today.
I'm always amazed somebody newwill come to me and they're drinking,
you know, eight, eight ouncesof water. That's all they're drinking
all day long, right?
Yeah, yeah.
You know, yeah. And coffeedoesn't count as water, so.
(19:45):
All right. I, I, I really wantto dive into your, your coaching,
but not yet. So we're going tohold off on that. I want to know
a little bit more because youwitnessed something on probably CBS
Wide World of Sports the sametime that I did, and it really influenced
you to want to do a, anIronman triathlon. And that is, you
(20:08):
saw Julie Moss basicallycrawling to the finish line of the
Ironman World Championships. Ithink it was in 1982. And it was
pretty darn powerful. And you,you saw that while smoking a cigarette
and you're like, I'm gonna dothat one day.
Yes.
(20:29):
What. What do you think it wasthat gripped you and made you wanna
go for that?
I'm so. I could start crying.I'm still, like, emotional. It. I'm
a crier, by the way.
(20:49):
I like to shine. Sign of strength.
Thank you. It's funny, I wasliving in New York. I was. I was
stand. I remember I wasstanding watching on television with
my cigarette, and I was juststaring and blown away by these women,
and they're crawling to thisfinish line. And at that time, I
(21:12):
was doing 5k runs. Smoker,didn't swim, didn't own a bike. And
I just watched and I'm like, Idon't even know what came over me.
I'm just. I wanted to do it.And I just. I ended up moving. I
left New York, I went homewhere my mom was living at the time,
in Juneau Beach, Florida. AndI hired a coach. And he believed
(21:36):
in me. And I'll let you ask ifyou have other questions, but the
story began there and that wasthe beginning.
So what year was that? Becausewe might be confusing, you might
have saw in Jan Ripple thatwas crawling across the finish line.
Because for me, and I'm about,probably 12 years, 13 years older
than you are, I'm 62. So forme it was 1981. But for you, do you
(22:00):
remember what year it was thatyou saw this?
This was. And it was Julie Moss.
Really? Okay. Yeah.
So what year was that?
You said 81.90B1.
I wonder if it was like, youknow how sometimes they show, like
replays of things?
Yes, yes.
(22:20):
On Iron Man. So I don't knowif it was a replay because that.
I moved to juno beach in 2000.So I'd say I was watching that around
1998. Okay, so maybe it waskind of a caption on one of the Iron
Mans.
Yeah, yeah, for sure.
You know?
Yeah. Because you weren'tsmoking a cigarette at the age of
nine or ten.
No, no.
(22:44):
Right. Well, it's funny, forme, it wasn't Julie Moss crawling
across the finish line thatcaptured my attention. What for me
was along with that samebroadcast, they showed Dave Scott,
who was finishing up thismarathon in the 110 degree heat on
(23:05):
the big island of Hawaii. Andthis guy looked like an Adonis and
he looked like a racehorse.And I was like, wow.
Wow.
I. I want to be like that.
Yes, I remember him.
Yeah, yeah. Total stud.
Oh my God. He was big timeback then.
Yeah. So you, you starteddoing, I mean training for the triathlons.
(23:28):
You were successful competingthe Ironman Hawaii in Hawaii, which
is no small, no small task.And then you started getting adrenal
fatigue and digestive issuesand you sought out a chiropractor
who basically helped you turn,turn the ship around a little bit.
(23:50):
Yes.
What did he, what did he orshe say to you that that was able
to get you down a healthier path?
So I had just finished Hawaii,I think it was 2000. Well, it was
2003.
Three.
And I went and saw Dr.Sullivan who's still in Jupiter,
Florida and I was, I had seenher, but I finally, after Hawaii
(24:16):
I just said, you know, I justdon't feel good. I was 14, body fat.
I looked the part, the wholething and underneath I just was tired
all the time, you know, I knewI was over training but I couldn't
stop, you know, and I thought100 mile bike ride a day and 10 mile
run is normal for me, youknow. So she said, you know, I think
(24:39):
you have adrenal fatigue andalso you're. I was addicted to artificial
sweeteners. I was addicted tosugar. I was still doing all this
during Hawaii and she said,let's cut out wheat, dairy and sugar.
Those were the three things. Ihad a weed allergy that I wasn't
aware of and my inflammationwent down. It was very difficult.
(25:01):
It was about three months oflike withdrawal. That's what it felt
like. And I had already quitsmoking so I wasn't smoking anymore.
That was just kind of a closetthing I was doing on the side. But
God, I felt so much betterafter. And then I packed up the Ironman
(25:21):
training and I said I'm goingto go back to school and help people.
And that was the beginning. Icouldn't believe the difference.
I started feeling better andthis was obviously way before the
whole food plant based so was.
Well first let me just saycongratulations because, and I, I
know because I've been theremyself that you can get so wrapped
(25:44):
up into the, the triathlonsbeing an Iron man or Iron Woman triathlete.
And you so self identify withthat, that part and people are so
impressed. And the reality is,and I'm sure that you talk about
this in your coaching becauseyou try and have your clients have
a well balanced life, butthere's not, there's nothing about
(26:07):
doing an Ironman or trainingfor an Ironman triathlon that is
well balanced. No, I meanthings are going to be out of, you
know, out of, out of order,out of place. You know, whether it's
your. Your career that's goingto suffer, your relationships that
are going to suffer, you know,like you said, major fatigue. Because
(26:30):
what. What do you think isgonna happen when you're training
five to seven hours a day? Imean, it's really hard for, I think,
for the body to keep up. And Idid a really fantastic podcast with
Carrie with a guy named BradKearns, who wrote a book called Born
to Walk with a guy named MarkSisson. And it's really a challenge
(26:50):
is. And it's very, verydisruptive. This whole notion of,
you know, running and this.The endurance training that so many
people are getting kind ofhooked on these days. And then you
become this obligate runner ortriathlete. And if you don't get
your run in or your swimmingor your bike and you feel like you're
a failure, it's just.
(27:11):
It's a cycle. I do want to goback to one thing you asked me.
Yeah.
Because it really was mystepfather who, when I watched Julie
crawl to the finish line, mystepfather. I went back when I moved
back home, and there was inthe newspaper this. These. This father
and three sons, the rebacks.And they're still doing a lot of
(27:32):
triathlons. And I saw theirpicture and it said ironman, Hawaii.
And it just kind of. Thingsstarted coming together, and that's
when I hired my coach, Marty,and my stepfather. I said, I want
to do this. And he goes, oh,you'll never be able to do this.
Well, the minute he said that,that really, as the oldest child,
got me going. I thought, I'mgonna show him. And that was where
(27:57):
nothing stopped me. You know,just one of those. Something clicked
in my head. It was like, letme prove something so that he's actually.
We laugh about it. He. He's agift in my life.
Yeah.
That was kind of the straw oflike, someone telling me I can't
do something. Yeah, no, I justwanted to share that.
Yeah, yeah, it's great. Soyou. You've got a lot of accreditations.
(28:26):
I know you became a nutritionhealth coach and you got your degree
with the Institute ofIntegrative. Yeah, nutrition. Is
that where you kind of studiedover 100 different kind of different
dietary methodologies?
(28:46):
Yes, I. That was the beginningfor me, and it was great because
we had all different teachers.Colin Campbell came, Deepak Chopra.
So all different types ofteachers that would teach about their
dietary theories. And then itwas great. Because it would be. You'd
have a vegetarian teacher oneday and then five love languages
(29:06):
another day and then ayurvedicmedicine. So I, I got a real broad
blend of so many dietarytheories to be able to really take
on anyone and, you know, meetthem where they are with their diet
and lifestyle. So I started there.
Yeah. What you, what, when didyou, when did you take that course?
(29:31):
I took that course in 2010.
Okay. And you. So it soundslike. So are they agnostic as far
as trying to recommend aparticular way of eating? They just
(29:52):
basically want to share andhave you learn a broad spectrum and
then you decide what is their philosophy?
Their philosophy is every bodyis different and it's a bio individuality.
So everybody's different.Their upbringing is different, their
blood type's different, theirdoshas are different with ayurvedic
(30:16):
medicine. So it gave us ashealth coaches just kind of this
broad spectrum of each person.So if you came to me and you said,
you know, I'm reallystruggling and I can't seem to get
up and go to the gym, I wouldhave you. I give clients a lot of
quizzes, which I've learned inschool. I'd have you go through the
eight colors of fitness, myfriend, dear friend, Suzanne Brew
(30:40):
wrote, and I'd have you take aquiz that takes five minutes and
we'll figure out your, yourcolor fitness. And then, you know,
I share with you why, youknow, what are the barriers and what
are some tips that would helpyou. Maybe as a purple you don't
like the gym, but as a silver,you do. So it's kind of more giving
(31:01):
people permission to be okaywith who they are and they don't
have to be like their friendsue, you know, so there's no, you
know, plant based is the way.I didn't learn that in school. I
learned science with eachdietary theory. And I like to say
(31:22):
everyone's right. I mean,that's how I left school, that everyone's
theory is right. It wasn'tuntil eight years ago that my niche
and passion really came withwhole food plant based nutrition.
And then my studies expandedfrom there.
Wonderful. All right, let's,let's talk about your coaching business
(31:45):
because I think it's fascinating.
Thank you.
So tell, tell the plan. Strongaudience. What is your niche? Like
you, you probably work withall kinds of individuals, but like,
where do you feel like yourspecialty? Lies.
Get ready. We're, we'rebracing corporate executive men.
(32:13):
Incredible. And so why, why,how did that, how did that end up
Being the case.
It really started when Istarted working at the television
station in Miami. This bravesoul, the general manager hired me
(32:38):
for basically the team thereand I did some coaching for the staff
and then I took him on andhe's on my website, John Lebonia.
And he lost over 60 poundswith me. He was a meat and potatoes
man back then. Like Imentioned, I taught more vegetarian
(33:02):
and we ended up all trainingfor the Mercedes Benz corporate run.
So it really started with Johnand then from there kind of moved
after that. I had men andwomen I was coaching at the station,
but then I ended up getting,you know, a few women one on one
coaching clients in Naples.And then I had one gentleman come
(33:25):
down from Los Angeles who wasjust here this weekend. He's been
with me about eight years now.
Wow, that's. That says a lotabout, about your, your, I think
not only your coaching, butyour ability to kind of really connect
with somebody.
Well, thank you. And actuallyI still speak with John Lebonia.
He's kept his weight off. Ithink he lost a total of £60. Now.
(33:50):
I keep sending more plantbased things to him, you know, by
text and stuff from the stateTV station. But yeah, so Amir, who's
also on my website, he washere this weekend and he, you know,
he's just one of my favoriteclients. He ended up telling all
his friends back home when hehad his results. I have a team, I
(34:13):
have about four people on myteam and we do heart rate conditioning.
So we work and we work withGarmin. And so we ended up training
Amir and his team in hisbusiness for a bike race and they
all had great results and itjust started moving in that direction
(34:33):
with his friends. So.
Yeah, well, and, and becauseI've read your story and because
you've shared, shared whathappened with your father, you also
feel like this is also a veryhealing process for you as well.
(34:54):
Being able to coach some ofthese, you know, high powered executive
men that are probably incertain aspects of their life, you
know, a mess. Right.Especially their health, I would
imagine. And how gratifyingthat must be.
It really is. It's reallygratifying to have somebody contact
(35:19):
me and say, look, I want todrop 80 pounds. You know, I don't
feel good. Super successful,you know, in their family, personal
life and business and yeah,their health. I think part of it
for a lot of my clients, theydon't really. We look together, you
(35:39):
know, I call it under the hoodof the car, you know, really of what
the blood work showing whereTheir hormone levels are like, there's
so much to it. And it takesabout a year working with me, minimum.
And then people go on amaintenance plan once they lose the
weight. But it is so rewardingto see somebody drop 10 pounds, 20
(35:59):
pounds, 30 pounds. I mean,we've had up to 100 pounds as you,
as you've seen, you know, withyour clients and customers. And it
is so rewarding. I jump out ofbed every day, Love what I do, especially
now that I'm plant based.
Yeah.
And it's, it's such a humblingcareer. And I do think of my dad,
(36:27):
you know, every day because mydad was so heavy when he, as I mentioned,
when he passed. And I rememberhe'd be in these dark rooms, even
though he'd be out in theworld, but then he'd come home and
eat at night and just beashamed that he's eating and hide
it. And I've been there, youknow, myself. So it's great to work
through all that with thesegentlemen and even my female clients.
(36:50):
So.
What do you think it is aboutyou and your personality and your
approach, your methodologythat makes you a successful coach?
This is your chance to brag on yourself.
(37:14):
You know, that's not easy for me.
Well, but you always say, gotto get out of your comfort zone.
Let's do it.
I'm here with you today. Ofcourse I am. I like to. You know,
I was telling a couple healthcoaches last week, I'm mentoring
one specifically at Lululemonbecause I'm partnering with them
the next this year. And Isaid, let's get you your first client.
(37:38):
I said, but let me teach youfirst. And I'm going to help her.
I said, you got to pretendlike you're putting a piece of tape
over your mouth when youcoach. And so I would say I listen
actively, more than talk. Idon't give advice. And I really hear
(37:58):
my clients, I really heartheir struggle, what they're dealing
with, just letting them vent,getting it out. You know, they don't
need me for a diet they don'tneed me for. I can give them your
book and they're good to go,you know, or a PDF of something.
But it's really just havingsomeone to listen for an hour of
what they're dealing with andthen they feel better and then they
(38:19):
don't go eat the Oreos at night.
Yeah, you, when you startedout, you mentioned that there was
a book that kind of inspiredyou, and you use it now with some
of your male, male, maleClients along with another one. What
are those two books?
(38:40):
This is where you get to brag.So my first book is your book.
Ah, my Beef with Meat. Wow.
Yes. Yep. And I this onebecause the biggest challenge for,
for all of my clients isgetting off of meat. You know, chicken
(39:01):
especially. But you know, thishas been for me too. I'm an oat blood
type again, going back to theblood types which I learned in school.
I'm a hunter gatherer, so Ireally need kind of that feeling
of a lot of beans or a lot oftofu or tempeh or just things that
feel like I'm eating chicken.So I have found this book really
(39:24):
helpful. And then also this ismy favorite. Who I met at, at your,
at my first retreat at yourPlan strong retreat in 2017.
Aaron Spitz.
Yep. So these are the twobooks that I recommend.
(39:45):
You mentioned. I want to goback to something you mentioned a
couple minutes ago that you,you work with Garmin or you have,
or your clients, maybe youhave them wear Garmin and that way
you can monitor their, theirsleep, their exercise, their heart
rates, all their vitals. Howimportant has, have you found that
(40:06):
to be as you're, as you'recoaching these men and women, that
relationship?
Yeah, extremely important. Iused to wear Garmin myself when I
was racing, so I love theirproducts. I'm now moving in the direction
with them with Garmin Health,which is another division and more
around the health aspect,especially with whole food, plant
(40:28):
based nutrition and how thatreally changes, you know, our heart
rate. Lower, higher, all ofit. And, but we use the Garmin watches,
we use the scale and now bloodpressure cuff, which, which is interesting
that I've, I've gotten to seeover the last 15 years being in practice
because we used to. I have twobrothers that are with me in my company
(40:51):
and one of them, Yarrow, who'smy right hand man, he's been with
me for nine years. So hewrites the heart rate programs for
our clients. We use trainingpeaks as our platform and then we
use Garmin the products. Andit's great because our clients can't
hide. We see everything. So ifthey didn't get a workout in, we
(41:14):
know, right? Or they did, weknow. And so we're every day in communication
with our clients. We take on acertain amount of people per year
and we just, we see theirscale and you know, their weight.
What we do each month is wepull reports for their doctors as
well if they want that. But wego over it with our clients so they
(41:35):
can see the changes in realtime. And so it's made a huge difference
because, you know, people loseweight and they feel good and you
can see it. But when they canreally, aside from blood work and
see the changes and you cansee the changes in the data, it makes
a huge difference. It'saccountable. They're accountable.
Do you also have them keep afood log? And if so, through what
(42:00):
app or what methodology do you use?
We don't.
Okay, so that, that sounds,that sounds very intentional.
No food log, no countingcalories for our clientele. I said
to a client this morning, weknow our clients don't even have
a minute to go to thebathroom. So we help them find ways
(42:25):
to, you know, order the foodfor them, whatever they need, ship
it to them, you know, helpthem just get their workout in. They
have family careers, sothey're not going to sit there and
be journaling. We tried it fora few years in the beginning, and
it just, I don't even keep afood log. So I try and bring my,
(42:45):
what I do and what Yaro doesand, you know, what works for us.
And it's worked really wellbecause our clients don't want to
write down everything.
Well, let me ask you this,because I, I, I agree, once you get
the hang of it. Absolutely.But I find that so many people, especially
in the beginning, they thinkthey know how to do it right, and
(43:08):
they're not, they're justslipping up left, right and center.
And so to me, I find it's anice way to kind of course correct
along the way, especially thefirst couple months. What, what about
taking a quick photo and justlike sending off a photo as a text?
No, you don't want them tomess with that either.
Well, what we do is so we, Ido a revisit form every week. So
(43:29):
our clients, I'll meet with aclient once, one hour each week.
And so I will have them fillout a revisit form, which on the
revisit form, it's a onepager. It has breakfast, lunch, dinner,
and they will fill that out. Iwon't say every week they do, but
if they don't, I have oneprinted, ready to go, and I help
them, you know, I'll talk tothat, talk it through with them.
(43:49):
Yeah, So I do it that way.Now, pictures. We do have our clients
take pictures. I have toremind them, like, take a picture
of your dinner tonight.They're not ones that are like, thinking
about, let me take a picture.
Right.
Our client, you know, theyhave two Phones or on the airplane,
(44:10):
their kids are calling, theirteam needs them. Whatever's going
on, I get it.
So these are high poweredexecutives. How do you deal with
these huge executive egos?
I don't think, I think I'veonly had one ego in 15 years. I don't
(44:34):
really attract clients thathave these high, big egos. I don't
know if it's because they wereheavy and they've been so uncomfortable
and have gone through so muchin their life. Whether people make
fun of them or, you know,they've had so many struggles, they
don't have the ego yet. Andeven, even after they lose all the
(44:57):
weight, they're still reallydown to earth people. So I don't,
I've only had like one ladywho, you know, came across like,
you know, one of these peoplethat they want to be smarter than
you, and that's okay. I justsay, yeah, you know, more than me,
that's fine. It doesn't bother me.
(45:18):
Yeah.
But I've been very fortunateto attract a certain type of client
that. Yeah. I think a big partis they've struggled for so long
with not feeling good thatthey don't have it. That makes sense.
Yeah. And what, what percentof the, of your clients would you
say have come through word of mouth?
(45:43):
99%.
Right. Well, it's the bestkind, right?
Yeah.
You use the Garmin for heartrate. What have you found? Because
it sounds like a lot of yourclients, they're whining and dining.
They're entertaining clients.I would imagine alcohol typically
seem to fit into thatlifestyle. And I don't do alcohol.
(46:07):
Haven't for a long time, but Iknow people that do. It messes with
their sleep, it messes withtheir resting heart rate when they
wake up in the morning. Haveyou found that to be the case and
do you try and dissuade themfrom doing alcohol?
Yes, Most of them drink. Theywant to stop. So I work with them
to help them with that. Yes.It, it disrupts everything. Their
(46:31):
mood, their sleep, their. Theway they're eating, everything, you
know, their sex life, erectiledysfunction. And so I don't drink
either. I might have one. I, Itell myself, you can have one a year
because it really affects me,but I usually don't end up having
(46:53):
it. And I know for me, if I,if I do have one drink, I get night
sweats or I just don't feelgood. So I work with my clients.
I'm not very strict with myclients, and I think that's one of
the things that has made mesuccessful, I would tell you that.
(47:16):
But to answer your question,with alcohol, I really try and have
my clients completely get off alcohol.
Yep.
Do they? Here and there. Ihave one client who's been with me,
I think, seven years now, andhe's been sober. He just celebrated
six years. And I went to hisfirst AA meeting with him in Los
(47:39):
Angeles, and I'm just so proudof him. He stayed with it.
Yeah.
Yeah. The poison. We knowthat, right?
Yeah. It's every organ in the body.
Yeah.
So you say that. That beinghealthy is all about lifestyle choices
(48:03):
around nutrition, which I feellike we've talked about exercise,
relationships, careers, andthen spirituality. So that's kind
of a branch of this wheel or apillar of it that I'd love for you
to tell me about. What. Whatare your. Your thoughts and your
(48:24):
beliefs when it comes to spirituality?
So I grew up Jewish, and Iwent to Hebrew school, and I went
to high school in Israel. AndI don't practice Judaism today, but
it was something that, in myearly years, it really set a wonderful
(48:45):
foundation for me. And I thinklater on in life, I started moving
into more of the. Just. Iwould try meditation here and there,
but it was more of a. Youknow, I went to Thailand, and so
the Buddhist and all of that.But for spirituality for me, today
(49:08):
is just taking time formyself. And this is something with
self care that I teach myclients. Just. I think for my clients,
it's. If they have a, youknow, getting a massage, spirituality,
it might sound kind of funny,but just having self, you know, care
(49:30):
time, going out for a walk.And I would say that's more the spirituality
piece. And then I bring intranscendental meditation, which
I've been doing for since2017. And I have. My clients go through
TM and I work with teachersall over the country, and it's such
a simple practice that it'ssomething. I just started with a
(49:53):
new client last week inMichigan, and she's already gone
through tm. And it's designedfor very busy, stressful people.
So it's very simple. You justclose your eyes, you have your mantra,
and it's easy. There'snothing. No app. There's nothing
to do. They have an app. Butit's. I try and find simple things
for people to get in touchwith their spirituality, and that's.
(50:15):
TM is part of that.
Yeah, I really. I like that.And it's amazing how many people
I've come and come intocontact with lately that tell me
that they Try and do meditate.Right. Half an hour when they wake
up and half an hour beforethey go to bed. And how it's just
been a game changer for them.And I am still, I still, I.
(50:41):
Was going to say, do you meditate?
I, I, you know, my, mymeditation is usually in motion when
I'm swimming or when I'm outfor a walk or usually it's movement,
it's not sitting still, whichI need to do. I need it. I, I really
don't have too many excusesexcept, you know, three young kids,
(51:03):
a wife, career, and yeah,normally the thought of getting an
extra half an hour sleep isreally nice.
I think you'd enjoy tm.
Yeah, Yeah, I do too. I dotoo. I just needed, I need to, like,
commit. Do it.
I'll support you in that.
(51:23):
Okay, good. Thank you. So tellme when you've, when you're bringing
on a new client, do you letthem know that, okay, this is how
things are going to work andwe're going to focus on these five
aspects of your life. Do yousay nutrition? Do you say, I want
(51:47):
you to start leaning intowhole food plant based. I want you
to start exercising 30 minutesa day. Want you to start meditating.
I mean, how does that work?
I'm laughing because I had aclient who was referred to me from
another client, and he goes, Iwant to hire you. I want the results
(52:09):
my friend had. But I'm notgoing vegan. Okay.
Yeah.
I said, okay, well, just knowwe are going to move in that direction.
Are you okay with that? Andwe'll go slow because it will be,
you know, it's about wholefoods. And then he was like, oh,
oh, okay.
(52:29):
Right.
So I guess to answer yourquestion, it depends. Everybody's
different. And I havesomething called the circle of life
that I use that I showdifferent areas like you talked about.
(52:50):
And we'll go through that andI'll have them take a test, a little
quiz thing, which I mentionedI do a lot of. But again, everyone
is coming from so manydifferent avenues. When they start
with me, the direction and thestructure in the beginning is to
get them a garment watch andget them a scale. So we have the
tracking. So we always startthere. They do before and after photos.
(53:15):
I'll have them fill out ahealth history form so we have the
background and a physicalactivity form for my guys to be able
to start putting their programtogether with training peaks. So
there is a system, I wouldsay, for someone that comes to us
with severe heart disease, I'mGoing to ship them your dad's book,
(53:37):
prevent a reverse heartdisease, which I studied with your
dad, his program last year,which I was so excited about.
Yeah.
And so it depends on theseverity and what they're coming
to us for if they want to getoff seven medications. I'm going
to say, look, before you hireme, we're going to go whole food
plant based, no salt, oil,sugar. It's going to be strict. Can
(54:00):
you do it? Because that'swhere you're going to get the results.
And they'll say yes or no. Soit's a small percentage of people
that we work with that dowhole food plant based. Yeah.
Let's say you're, you'reworking with somebody and they have
an awful week. They've fallenoff the rails. They don't do anything
(54:21):
quite right. What do you do tokind of get them back on track?
I'll listen, I'll see what'sgoing on, you know.
Yeah.
What's going on at home?What's going on with your wife? What's
going on with the kids? What'sgoing on at work? What are you stressed
about? Did you meditate lastnight? Did you meditate this morning?
Morning. Did you drink water?I'm a big juicer. I work also with
(54:47):
Hippocrates in West Palmbeach. So I love green juice. So
I find green juice companiesall over different locations for
them. And I'll just go downthe list of things. How was your
sleep last night? Did youdrink alcohol? Did you take a sleeping
pill? You know, I asked allthe questions very quickly to get
(55:08):
to quickly. What's going on?Did you eat a lot of sugar last night?
And I could pretty much. Weknow in a second. And they know.
My clients know their bodiesbetter than I do.
Yeah.
What do you think it is?What's going on?
You know, it almost soundslike. So we've got three electric
(55:29):
cars and every one of them youcan go in and find, see where the
car is at any point in theday. Where they're, if they're driving,
where they are, where they'reparked, park. It almost seems like
a little bit of an invasion, right?
Sounds like a Tesla.
Well, there's, there's,there's, there's many that have that
capability. But it sounds likeyou have that same, like, you know,
(55:53):
you, you, you have the insidetrack into what's going on with these
men and women, which is, whichis, you know, it's great.
Thank you.
Let me ask you.
I know because I, I was there,right you know, personally.
Yeah. Let me ask you this.This is so, so many of these. Let's
(56:14):
just right now segment thisinto the high powered executive men
that you're dealing with andfor any of the listeners that also
the women that are married toa high powered executive male or
vice versa. But how importantis it for you to connect with that
(56:36):
spouse so that, that it's kindof a team effort.
It's funny. Usually the wiveswill call me, we need you for my
husband. So that's usually theword of mouth. Usually if it's not
a friend of a friend, youknow, a gentleman and his friend,
it's usually a wife will callme and say, I need you for my husband.
(57:00):
You know, he's a mess. But toanswer your question, I don't interact
with the spouses. I will givemy client. You know, I might say,
is it okay if I get yourwife's email or your partner's email
and send them some recipes foryou for them to cook or the chef
(57:22):
or somebody maybe from thatperspective, if they're cooking.
But as far as it'sinteresting, I actually coach the
men to be, I don't like to usethe word better, but hey, do you
know your wife's lovelanguage? You know, is it acts of
service? Is it, you know,physical touch? What is it? And I
(57:46):
might have him go take a quizwith her. So I'm always like in the
relationship area, findingways for them to connect with their
spouses with, with their wivesmore than it's something she's doing
over there.
Yeah.
It's really about the guy andhis body and, and how he's relating
(58:09):
to his partner. Does thatanswer your question?
Yeah. Yeah. What is, what'sthe most difficult thing about being
a health coach?
Probably with the whole foodplant based diet. I know it works.
(58:32):
And sitting back whensomeone's not ready to go there fully
and giving them the time toget there or not get there, that's
probably the hardest partbecause I live it. And I'll be 50
years old in July. No meds, noBotox, nothing. I don't even think
(59:01):
I have a filter. I may have atiny one on here, but no. And my
mom worked for adermatologist, so I was never in
the sun even when I raced. Ialways did things at night or early
in the morning. But I feel, Iwish I, when I was an ironman, I
wish I was plant based. Iprobably would have gone professional.
(59:22):
Yeah.
You know, and I feel 20 yearsyounger. @ my age, I just can't even
believe the difference. Sothat's probably the hardest part.
When people are on keto andnot ready and just sitting back until
they are right.
What is the best thing aboutbeing a health coach?
(59:47):
The best thing about being ahealth coach? That's a great question.
There's so many, I think justthe connection that I have with my
clients. It's like aprofessional family. You know, they,
(01:00:07):
they, they allow me into theirlives, you know, everything they're
dealing with and who they are,and they're just meeting me and they're
just telling me their wholelife story, and there's so much compassion.
And I feel so honored, youknow, that they're letting me in
their life. And so that'sprobably the biggest thing for me.
(01:00:32):
Well, one of, one of yourmost. One of your great success stories
just happened to be, if I'mnot mistaken, your own mother. Right.
Oh, God, she drives me crazy.And I love her.
Victoria.
Yes, Victoria. She'll be sohappy you mentioned her name.
(01:00:52):
Yeah, well, it sounds likeshe's crushing it.
She is, and it really has. I'mso proud of her. She's been whole
food plant based for eightyears now or nine years. She's, you
know, stayed with it. It'sbrought a different level of a relationship
with us. I feel like she's myhealth coach sometimes. She's always
(01:01:13):
showing me new things andgiving me things and. But she's a
big fan of your food. And Iremember when your burgers came out,
she shipped me all theseburgers. She was so excited. Before
I even knew. So I'm reallyproud of my mom for. At her age,
she's 76 and she had someblockage. It went away. She got off
(01:01:34):
Synthroid. I mean, all thesedoctors told her it's her age, and
I'm like, no, mom, just trustme. Give me a year. We're gonna do
this together. And she did.
So do you have a coach in your life?
Oh, God, yeah. So many. Yes.I've always had a coach. Yarrow,
(01:01:58):
who works with me, is mycoach. He trains me every. I pay
him just like a client. And Ijust, I'm gonna hire my personal
trainer here in town and getback into strength training. So I
have him, David. I have abusiness coach. I have a coach from
Landmark. I have a mentor,Michelle, who's been my, my mentor
(01:02:23):
25 years. So I have a lot ofpeople around me, and I feel like
that's really what got meinterested in becoming a coach. You
know, I never would have madeor completed Ironman Hawaii. My first
time doing Ironman Floridawithout a incredible coach.
(01:02:45):
So do you have a coach I like?I don't. I don't.
Oh, I'd love to coach you.
I need five. Five or six.
How about just for tm?
Right. You mentioned threethings that are, I think, important.
(01:03:06):
One is courageous action. Twois to have a support team. And three
is never give up. You do thosethree things, you can do almost anything.
And I couldn't agree with youmore. But what do you mean by courageous
action? Give me an example.
(01:03:26):
Having that phone call thatyou're afraid to have and you've
been putting off. Having theconversation that you're putting
off or procrastinating thatyou haven't had in 10 years with
your wife. You know, somethingyou've been hiding or something you're
ashamed of or something.Something you're not happy with and
(01:03:47):
you're afraid to say, youknow, some type of communication.
You know, buying a pair ofrunning shoes and you're 80 pounds
overweight, and you go to therunning store and you buy a pair
of shoes and you get outside.That's a courageous action. Going
and getting your firstcolonic, which I'm a big fan of having.
(01:04:08):
You know, sending my clientsto different wellness centers to
have a colonic. That's a bigdeal. No one wants to talk about
it. It's like, you know, thepenis book? No one wants to talk
about that. But these arethings that healed my IBS, you know,
20 years ago, colonhydrotherapy. So it's part of my
(01:04:29):
practice. I bring it up. Sothese are courageous actions that
are not comfortable, but youtake action anyways. That is going
to bring you greater healthand vitality.
You have.
Did I lose you at colonic?
No, no, no, no, no, no. It'shard to lose me. Yeah, I like. And
(01:04:55):
I don't know who you said thisto, but you told it to somebody.
Maybe it was your mother,maybe it's one of your clients. You
said, you're not going to fitin, you're going to fit out. Because
they're like, oh, I bet I'mnot going to fit in. And you're like,
that's okay. You're going tofit out. Maybe until you fit in.
But what did you mean by that exactly?
(01:05:17):
I actually first heard thatline from my dear friend and mentor
who started my nutritionschool, Joshua Rosenthal. Yeah, that
was his tagline in school.Like, it's okay that so many of you
feel like you don't fit in.And I've always felt like I never
fit in. I was always one ofthese, you know, even as a kid, you
(01:05:41):
know, running at nine yearsold. And then I came out to my family
as a gay woman when I was 18,which was a huge deal. Nice Jewish
girl. I didn't know any gaypeople. I just shared with my mom
and was very scared. That wasa courageous act. And then, you know,
(01:06:01):
moving into this directionwith being an Ironman, I feel like
that was fitting out. Who'sdoing that and then going whole food
plant based. I mean, this hasprobably been the one big thing for
me of fitting out. It's such asmall percentage that are eating
this way in S.O.S. you know,no salt, oil, and sugar.
(01:06:24):
Yeah. Well, you know what? Youknow what I love about all that I
think the most is that youtalk about how important it is to
have an authentic relationshipwith yourself. And I think by by
establishing an authenticrelationship with yourself, you can
then have these amazing,strong relationships with others.
(01:06:47):
But it really does start withyourself. And I read that in your.
Your story. You talk aboutthat. So, I mean, kudos to you.
Thank you. I know. I'mfollowing you. You read everything.
It's not an easy journey, youknow, to get to that place, to be
(01:07:08):
authentic. And I probablywould not have shared all this with
you, you know, 15 years ago.So it's really been a lot of work
on myself. And that's thespirituality part to get here, be
able to say this on national television.
That's right.
National podcast, our new version.
(01:07:31):
Yeah. Yeah. Well, Joy. I'mgonna call you Joy. Is there anything
that you would like to saybefore we wrap this up? I just. Let
me say that it's been such ajoy reading up on you, getting to
(01:07:53):
know about your journey, yourauthentic self that is kind of now
moving through this world andhelping people through your incredible
coaching practice. And I lovethe fact that you're. You're helping.
(01:08:14):
Helping men who seem to. Whoseem to be the most obstinate and
stubborn when it comes tomaking these changes. And you have
such an amazing presence andcalmness and equanimity about you
that it's easy for me tounderstand why your practice is thriving
and why these powerful men areso attracted to your style.
(01:08:35):
Thank you. I appreciate that.I do want to say how excited I am
to be here with you. And Ialso want to say that when I first
met you in 2017, it was inNorth Carolina at your retreat, and
(01:08:56):
it was actually a birthdaygift from my partner at the time.
She said what do you want?Anything in the world. And I said
to go to Rip Esselstyn's retreat.
Yeah.
And I went. And I remembermeeting you. I'd sent some pictures
to Carrie from back in theday, and I was. I just. I'm very
inspired by you, you know, thefact that your background and everything
(01:09:20):
you've done and everythingyou're doing, and, you know, I just
want you to know it's such anhonor to be here with you today.
I'm constantly sharing yourproducts and your books and just
who you are as a man in theworld. You know, it's not a lot of
convincing because I'll say,take Rip's book. You know, get on
this website. This is mycoaching talk.
(01:09:42):
Yeah.
And they do. And becauseyou're a triathlete, you know, I'm
like, he's a triathlete. Hewas a firefighter. Like, they relate
to you. So I want to thank youfor what you're doing in the world.
You've made a huge differencein my life, my mom's life, and my
clients. So you're doingamazing work. That's what I want
to say.
(01:10:02):
Yeah. Well, it's very nice ofyou to say all that. I. Yes, I very
much appreciate it. And Joy,that was really, really kind of you.
Thank you for those. Thosenice words. I have so enjoyed spending
the last hour with you andgetting to know you, and you're my
(01:10:26):
plant strong sister.
Thank you. I look forward todoing future things with you.
Yeah.
I am going to follow up withyou about tm. Don't think I'm a coach.
Okay. All right, you do that.Hey, can you. Can we finish with
a virtual Plan Strong fist bump?
Yes.
(01:10:47):
I can't see it. There it is. Bam.
Maybe I should bring thegarment in since we're out here.
Yeah. Yeah. All right, bye.
Thank you so much. Thank you.
For more information onMichelle and her coaching practice,
visit michellejoykramer.com Iso appreciate her approach to coaching
(01:11:10):
and habit change with all ofher clients. Start small and then
develop sustainable habits.And never underestimate. Underestimate
the power of a mindfulnesspractice. Real change is possible
with the right mindsetsupport, and, of course, plan strong
plate. Thanks so much forlistening and as always, always keep
(01:11:35):
it Plan strong. The PlanStrong podcast team includes Carrie
Barrett, Lori Cordowicz, andAmy Mackey. If you like what you
hear, do us a favor and sharethe show with your friends and loved
ones. You can always leave afive star rating and review on Apple
podcasts or Spotify. And whileyou're there, make sure to hit that
(01:11:57):
follow button so that younever miss an episode. As always,
this and every episode isdedicated to my parents, Dr. Caldwell
B. Esselstyn Jr. And Ann KreilEsselstyn. Thanks so much for listening.
I'm Rip Esselstyn and you'relistening to the PLANTSTRONG podcast.
What happens when a healthscare and deep personal loss become
the spark for a total lifetransformation? This week you're
going to meet powerhousehealth coach, Michelle Joy Kramer,
who turned her grief intopersonal growth. That's coming up
(01:10):
right after these words fromPlantstrong. I love reconnecting
with past Plantstrong retreatattendees and hearing how this lifestyle
is unfolding in their lives.Back in 2017, Michelle Joy Kramer
(01:30):
joined us at a Planstrongimmersion in Black Mountain, North
Carolina. At the time, she wasjust beginning her whole food plant
based journey, sparked by aserious health event involving her
partner and a deepermotivation that was rooted in her
father's health struggles andsubsequent death. Since then, Michelle
(01:55):
has transformed her own lifeand now coaches high powered professionals
towards better health. In thisepisode, she shares how she moved
from vegetarianism to embracea fully plant strong lifestyle and
dramatically lowering hercholesterol while navigating the
social challenges that comewith making such a bold shift. She
(02:18):
also shares her tips forcoaching these business executives,
many of whom are men. Andbelieve me, it's not necessarily
what you may think. Here tospread joy and Plan Strong love is
Michelle Joy Kramer. MichelleJoy Kramer, welcome to the Plan Strong
(02:39):
podcast.
Thank you. RIP Esselstyn.
Yes. Yes. Where am I talkingto you from today?
You're talking to me fromNaples, Florida.
Naples, Florida. Do you likeNaples? Love it, huh? How long you
been there?
I've been here almost 14 years.
(03:03):
Did you guys get hit prettyhard by one of those hurricanes last
year or two?
Yes, we did.
Yeah. How did your place survive?
Very lucky. No flooding and.Yeah, we were very lucky this year.
Last year.
Tell me, Joy. Michelle. Joy. Isee Joy and I'm like, God, do people
(03:27):
ever call you Joy? Is thatever? They do.
They do. My mother, I was thefirstborn, so my mother said I was
the joy of her life, and shecame up with Michelle Joy. And I
started using that in mybranding actually, 15 years ago.
And my teacher who started myschool, Integrative Nutrition, Joshua
(03:51):
Rosenthal, he calls me Joy anda bunch of my other friends call
me Joy, so.
Yes. Yeah. Well, I have adaughter named Hope, so I see Joy,
and, you know, it kind of.They run in parallel paths, so. So
if I call you Joy, don't holdit against me.
I love it.
Good, good, good.
(04:13):
I feel a lot of joy being herewith you, just so you know.
Yeah. Yeah. Well, we're gonnahave a joyful time here discussing
all the great things you're upto. Tell me about your personal journey
to kind of whole food plantbased nutrition. How did that begin?
Ah, feels like a lifetime ago.It started about eight years ago
(04:38):
and I was here in Naples,Florida and my partner, my girlfriend
at the time had. We were goingout for an evening and all of a sudden
her blood pressure went up andwe ended up in the hospital that
evening. And she had a heartissue, blockage. And it just happened
(05:02):
very quickly. She was in herlate 40s. Very, just surprising.
She had lost a lot of weightand made some healthy changes in
her life. I wasn't whole foodplant based at the time, and neither
was she. And I was alwaysvegetarian, but never whole food
plant based. And it reallyjust in one moment, I mean, my whole
(05:22):
life changed. And she had acouple stents put in and it ended
up being a coincidence thather uncle knows your dad. And so
we ended up after the surgery,we flew to Ohio. We were in your
(05:44):
dad's and mom's living room.And I remember your dad saying, no
oil. Yeah, I didn't know whathe was talking about.
That's right. No oil in the car.
No oil. Well, I had so muchoil in our house that, you know,
MCT oil.
(06:05):
Right.
I'm an Ironman athlete, so thecoconut oil, all of that I thought
was really good for me andjust completely changed our diets
in, in a very short period of time.
Okay, so. So you kind of wentdown the, the path initially because
(06:27):
of this health scare that yourpartner had. But tell me about, like,
where were you personally onyour, your journey at that time?
Were you healthy, unhealthy?What were you like?
Well, I thought I was healthy.I felt great. You know, nothing was
(06:47):
wrong. I had cholesterol,total cholesterol over 200. I thought
that was normal. I have ahistory of heart disease in my family,
so it was always a thought forme. But I thought, I'm an athlete,
I have low body fat, I feelgood. So I thought I was, I thought
(07:09):
I was healthy and felt good.Little did I know, you know, and
in three months from doing thewhole food plant based diet, my cholesterol
went from 200 to around 1 48.Yeah, I mean, huge changes. My LDL
went down, triglycerides,everything. And that's when I got
(07:32):
hooked. And then I startedfeeling better, recovery quicker.
So to answer your question, Inever, I always felt good, but I
never knew how good I couldactually feel. You know, that was
the real turning point for mebecause I already Felt good.
Right, right, right. So youwent from good to great, right? Yeah.
(07:53):
Right? Yeah, yeah. You didn'tknow there was any improvement there,
but there. But there was.That's great.
Yep.
And your, your partner at thetime who had the stents put in and
kind of was in trouble. Wasshe able to stick with this or, or
not, do you know?
No.
(08:13):
No. Okay. Okay.
She tried. She tried. It wasreally difficult. I think it was
a strain on our relationship.
What was you mean? Just that,just trying to get her to, to follow
the lifestyle.
Yes. I became militant aroundit all because I was feeling so good.
I saw the results, I saw theresults that she had in a few months.
(08:37):
We, and we actually went andsaw Dr. Delaney, who's a cardiologist
in Port Charlotte, a couplehours from us. So she was monitoring
her and we didn't have any, wedon't have any lifestyle medicine
doctors in Naples that arecardiologists. So we drove to Dr.
Delaney and had her monitorher. And I remember we got on a call
(09:01):
with her maybe three monthsafter being on the diet. And my girlfriend
saw all the changes. Thedifficult part was we were traveling
and eating out and enjoyingthe lifestyle. And after we left
your dad's house, we werelike, we were so depressed that we
drove to a pizza parlor. We'relike, how are we ever gonna do this?
(09:24):
But we did and there wereresults. I just think it was difficult
to maintain that lifestyle ofso called fun eating out all the
time and being this, you know,being on this way of eating.
Yeah, well, you've, you'veobviously figured it out because
(09:45):
it's been over eight, nineyears now that you've been doing
this. How do you navigateeating out now that you, that you're
a savvy, whole food, plantbased ninja warrior?
I love that. I don't really, Idon't eat out much. I don't really
feel good when I eat out, evenif I get things steamed and everything.
(10:08):
And I cook a lot at home and Ithink, which is what I teach in my
practice is as a health coach,is ways to eat on the go. And so,
you know, like you as atriathlete. I've always, I've never
been. I always like to saypeople live to eat or they eat to
live. And I've always been oneto just find quick ways to eat. So
(10:34):
for me, food is just fuel. Andso I have found ways to find whole
food plant based nutrition onthe go. Like your products with plant
strong and I call your, yourproducts actually the Hurricane food
for Naples, because we cangrab all the food, you know, order
the food and it's ready to goand you can eat it when you have
(10:55):
no electricity. So I just havefound ways to help people navigate
through, you know, that aren'tin the kitchen. And that's how I
live. So I don't really eatout much because I love to eat at
home. I've learned ways, youknow, enjoy my food at home.
(11:16):
Yeah. So let's go back eightyears ago. You had this incident
with your partner. What wereyou doing at the time, as a career?
I was a health. I'm a healthcoach. I've been a health coach for
15 years.
Okay.
@ that time, I was healthcoaching at a television station
(11:37):
in Miami, wlrn, which is alsopart of npr. And so I was teaching
and I was also building my oneon one practice with health coaching.
And again, it was more aroundvegetarian, you know, eggs and fish
and lots of oils. So I washealth coaching and online as well.
(12:00):
Built an online practice.
Right. So my, My understandingfrom visiting. Visiting your website
and reading up on you is thatyou now, you know, you run a global
private concierge healthcoaching practice, which is fantastic.
I want to dive into a littlebit more about that and who your
(12:24):
clientele are, but before wedo, because I. Because in doing my
research, I think it reallyinforms where your passions lie right
now with who you're coaching.I'd love for you to kind of share
with the plan, strongaudience, a little bit about your
relationship with your fatherand what happened there.
(12:48):
That's a big one.
Well, we like going big.
Of course we do. So my fathercommitted suicide when I was nine
and he was overweight. He wassuper successful. He was an attorney.
I grew up with my dad and mygrandfather, both attorneys. So learned,
(13:11):
respected both of them verymuch. My grandfather passed as well,
but with my dad, he was theclosest person to me. I was nine
years old. Just completely. Ialways like to say that's what had
me become an ironman or ironwoman. It was that I was just driven
at nine years old. I'm theoldest child. I have two sisters,
(13:35):
one that passed away a yearand a half ago. They're identical.
They were identical twins. SoI kind of became the. I call it the
man of the house, care of mymom and my sisters, and just had
this determination andstructure and at such an early age.
And that was the way that Iwent through my grief. I started
(13:58):
running probably two daysafter I learned that my father passed
away. My best Friend in theneighborhood, his brother was a runner.
So we went on the track and itwas the first time that I felt some
relief and that's where mypassion for running began. And it
was a way for me to, you know,just, yeah, grieve my father. It
(14:23):
was a huge loss for me.
What do you think it was aboutexercise, running that was able to
temporarily soothe the pain?
I think for me, now that Iknow the science, I would say endorphins,
(14:44):
but I didn't know whatendorphins and serotonin and dopamine
were back then. So it's kindof having all of those chemicals
happening for me in the brain,but also this feeling of freedom,
like the wind blowing, beingoutdoors, the nature. I just felt
so good during and after. Itbecame a social thing for me, which
(15:07):
I'm now doing as well inrunning groups as an adult. So it
became like the socialactivity with my friends. But we'd
be active and moving, sothere's something with that moving
and movement. And I wouldthink of my dad when I would run.
We did paper routes togetherwhen he was living. So I started
very early on in the dark. Imean, he'd wake me up out of bed
(15:30):
at 5am I still get up at 4amnow in the mornings. So there's something
about that quiet in the darkand that time alone that I enjoy.
So was it your paper routethat your father was helping you
with at 4am?
Sorry, it could have been hispaper route really.
(15:54):
So he's an attorney and healso has a newspaper route?
Yes.
Why?
He's. I think towards the end,before he passed, he. And I know
not think my mother sharedwith me that he struggled, he struggled
in his career towards the endhe struggled being around people.
He put on probably 50 pounds.He was overweight when he passed
(16:16):
away, very depressed, lots ofdepression. So I think towards the
end he was struggling to beout with people and. Yeah, so that.
So he had a couple jobs tomake ends meet.
Got it, Got it. Understood.And so from what I read, it sounds
(16:40):
like you also suffered withdepression for a period of. Of time
there and some binge eating.Anything you'd like to say about
those. Those things?
Oh, you really read my story.That was a big. Actually that story
I put out on my website was abig deal for me to really share myself,
(17:05):
you know, with people too. AndI would say the binge eating and
depression have been a journeyand I've always been involved in
something called Landmark.I've been involved with Landmark
for 25 years. And I thinkbetween that and transcendental meditation
that I do and things that I'velearned ways each day, certain rituals
(17:30):
to, I like to say, manage. Ithink that's where the diet plays
a huge role in the, the shiftthat happened eight years ago with
the plant based, that if Iate, when I used to eat refined sugar,
I would feel depressed. Andthis is something I share with my
clients, that I got offrefined sugar way before I was plant
(17:54):
based about 20 years ago. AndI was on Prozac and Wellbutrin. And
you know, these young clientsthat hire me, their parents hire
me for them that are onantidepressants today, they're eating
refined sugar. And that's thefirst place I go with people. My
depression went away.
(18:14):
Give me an idea. When you sayrefined sugar and your clients that
are on these meds and you getthem off refined sugar, how do you,
what does that look like asfar as the food that they're eating?
Is it soda? Is it soda pops?Is it, is it bread? Is it sugar in
their coffee? What is it?
(18:35):
All of it. All of it. I, whatI do is I add in things for my clients
so I don't take away thesugar. You know, some clients will
say, you know, especially mymales, my corporate executives, they'll
say, all right, I'm done withthe sugar. For my lady clients, it
takes a little bit of time.For them it's a little different.
(19:01):
Where by adding in things,let's say adding in some grains,
you know, adding in refined.Let me go back to your question.
Refined sugar, I mean, likewhite sugar, brown sugar, things
like you said, that are inbread and things like that candy,
it could be anything. But whenI add in things, whether it's even
(19:23):
just drinking more water, youknow, people are so dehydrated today.
I'm always amazed somebody newwill come to me and they're drinking,
you know, eight, eight ouncesof water. That's all they're drinking
all day long, right?
Yeah, yeah.
You know, yeah. And coffeedoesn't count as water, so.
(19:45):
All right. I, I, I really wantto dive into your, your coaching,
but not yet. So we're going tohold off on that. I want to know
a little bit more because youwitnessed something on probably CBS
Wide World of Sports the sametime that I did, and it really influenced
you to want to do a, anIronman triathlon. And that is, you
(20:08):
saw Julie Moss basicallycrawling to the finish line of the
Ironman World Championships. Ithink it was in 1982. And it was
pretty darn powerful. And you,you saw that while smoking a cigarette
and you're like, I'm gonna dothat one day.
Yes.
(20:29):
What. What do you think it wasthat gripped you and made you wanna
go for that?
I'm so. I could start crying.I'm still, like, emotional. It. I'm
a crier, by the way.
(20:49):
I like to shine. Sign of strength.
Thank you. It's funny, I wasliving in New York. I was. I was
stand. I remember I wasstanding watching on television with
my cigarette, and I was juststaring and blown away by these women,
and they're crawling to thisfinish line. And at that time, I
(21:12):
was doing 5k runs. Smoker,didn't swim, didn't own a bike. And
I just watched and I'm like, Idon't even know what came over me.
I'm just. I wanted to do it.And I just. I ended up moving. I
left New York, I went homewhere my mom was living at the time,
in Juneau Beach, Florida. AndI hired a coach. And he believed
(21:36):
in me. And I'll let you ask ifyou have other questions, but the
story began there and that wasthe beginning.
So what year was that? Becausewe might be confusing, you might
have saw in Jan Ripple thatwas crawling across the finish line.
Because for me, and I'm about,probably 12 years, 13 years older
than you are, I'm 62. So forme it was 1981. But for you, do you
(22:00):
remember what year it was thatyou saw this?
This was. And it was Julie Moss.
Really? Okay. Yeah.
So what year was that?
You said 81.90B1.
I wonder if it was like, youknow how sometimes they show, like
replays of things?
Yes, yes.
(22:20):
On Iron Man. So I don't knowif it was a replay because that.
I moved to juno beach in 2000.So I'd say I was watching that around
1998. Okay, so maybe it waskind of a caption on one of the Iron
Mans.
Yeah, yeah, for sure.
You know?
Yeah. Because you weren'tsmoking a cigarette at the age of
nine or ten.
No, no.
(22:44):
Right. Well, it's funny, forme, it wasn't Julie Moss crawling
across the finish line thatcaptured my attention. What for me
was along with that samebroadcast, they showed Dave Scott,
who was finishing up thismarathon in the 110 degree heat on
(23:05):
the big island of Hawaii. Andthis guy looked like an Adonis and
he looked like a racehorse.And I was like, wow.
Wow.
I. I want to be like that.
Yes, I remember him.
Yeah, yeah. Total stud.
Oh my God. He was big timeback then.
Yeah. So you, you starteddoing, I mean training for the triathlons.
(23:28):
You were successful competingthe Ironman Hawaii in Hawaii, which
is no small, no small task.And then you started getting adrenal
fatigue and digestive issuesand you sought out a chiropractor
who basically helped you turn,turn the ship around a little bit.
(23:50):
Yes.
What did he, what did he orshe say to you that that was able
to get you down a healthier path?
So I had just finished Hawaii,I think it was 2000. Well, it was
2003.
Three.
And I went and saw Dr.Sullivan who's still in Jupiter,
Florida and I was, I had seenher, but I finally, after Hawaii
(24:16):
I just said, you know, I justdon't feel good. I was 14, body fat.
I looked the part, the wholething and underneath I just was tired
all the time, you know, I knewI was over training but I couldn't
stop, you know, and I thought100 mile bike ride a day and 10 mile
run is normal for me, youknow. So she said, you know, I think
(24:39):
you have adrenal fatigue andalso you're. I was addicted to artificial
sweeteners. I was addicted tosugar. I was still doing all this
during Hawaii and she said,let's cut out wheat, dairy and sugar.
Those were the three things. Ihad a weed allergy that I wasn't
aware of and my inflammationwent down. It was very difficult.
(25:01):
It was about three months oflike withdrawal. That's what it felt
like. And I had already quitsmoking so I wasn't smoking anymore.
That was just kind of a closetthing I was doing on the side. But
God, I felt so much betterafter. And then I packed up the Ironman
(25:21):
training and I said I'm goingto go back to school and help people.
And that was the beginning. Icouldn't believe the difference.
I started feeling better andthis was obviously way before the
whole food plant based so was.
Well first let me just saycongratulations because, and I, I
know because I've been theremyself that you can get so wrapped
(25:44):
up into the, the triathlonsbeing an Iron man or Iron Woman triathlete.
And you so self identify withthat, that part and people are so
impressed. And the reality is,and I'm sure that you talk about
this in your coaching becauseyou try and have your clients have
a well balanced life, butthere's not, there's nothing about
(26:07):
doing an Ironman or trainingfor an Ironman triathlon that is
well balanced. No, I meanthings are going to be out of, you
know, out of, out of order,out of place. You know, whether it's
your. Your career that's goingto suffer, your relationships that
are going to suffer, you know,like you said, major fatigue. Because
(26:30):
what. What do you think isgonna happen when you're training
five to seven hours a day? Imean, it's really hard for, I think,
for the body to keep up. And Idid a really fantastic podcast with
Carrie with a guy named BradKearns, who wrote a book called Born
to Walk with a guy named MarkSisson. And it's really a challenge
(26:50):
is. And it's very, verydisruptive. This whole notion of,
you know, running and this.The endurance training that so many
people are getting kind ofhooked on these days. And then you
become this obligate runner ortriathlete. And if you don't get
your run in or your swimmingor your bike and you feel like you're
a failure, it's just.
(27:11):
It's a cycle. I do want to goback to one thing you asked me.
Yeah.
Because it really was mystepfather who, when I watched Julie
crawl to the finish line, mystepfather. I went back when I moved
back home, and there was inthe newspaper this. These. This father
and three sons, the rebacks.And they're still doing a lot of
(27:32):
triathlons. And I saw theirpicture and it said ironman, Hawaii.
And it just kind of. Thingsstarted coming together, and that's
when I hired my coach, Marty,and my stepfather. I said, I want
to do this. And he goes, oh,you'll never be able to do this.
Well, the minute he said that,that really, as the oldest child,
got me going. I thought, I'mgonna show him. And that was where
(27:57):
nothing stopped me. You know,just one of those. Something clicked
in my head. It was like, letme prove something so that he's actually.
We laugh about it. He. He's agift in my life.
Yeah.
That was kind of the straw oflike, someone telling me I can't
do something. Yeah, no, I justwanted to share that.
Yeah, yeah, it's great. Soyou. You've got a lot of accreditations.
(28:26):
I know you became a nutritionhealth coach and you got your degree
with the Institute ofIntegrative. Yeah, nutrition. Is
that where you kind of studiedover 100 different kind of different
dietary methodologies?
(28:46):
Yes, I. That was the beginningfor me, and it was great because
we had all different teachers.Colin Campbell came, Deepak Chopra.
So all different types ofteachers that would teach about their
dietary theories. And then itwas great. Because it would be. You'd
have a vegetarian teacher oneday and then five love languages
(29:06):
another day and then ayurvedicmedicine. So I, I got a real broad
blend of so many dietarytheories to be able to really take
on anyone and, you know, meetthem where they are with their diet
and lifestyle. So I started there.
Yeah. What you, what, when didyou, when did you take that course?
(29:31):
I took that course in 2010.
Okay. And you. So it soundslike. So are they agnostic as far
as trying to recommend aparticular way of eating? They just
(29:52):
basically want to share andhave you learn a broad spectrum and
then you decide what is their philosophy?
Their philosophy is every bodyis different and it's a bio individuality.
So everybody's different.Their upbringing is different, their
blood type's different, theirdoshas are different with ayurvedic
(30:16):
medicine. So it gave us ashealth coaches just kind of this
broad spectrum of each person.So if you came to me and you said,
you know, I'm reallystruggling and I can't seem to get
up and go to the gym, I wouldhave you. I give clients a lot of
quizzes, which I've learned inschool. I'd have you go through the
eight colors of fitness, myfriend, dear friend, Suzanne Brew
(30:40):
wrote, and I'd have you take aquiz that takes five minutes and
we'll figure out your, yourcolor fitness. And then, you know,
I share with you why, youknow, what are the barriers and what
are some tips that would helpyou. Maybe as a purple you don't
like the gym, but as a silver,you do. So it's kind of more giving
(31:01):
people permission to be okaywith who they are and they don't
have to be like their friendsue, you know, so there's no, you
know, plant based is the way.I didn't learn that in school. I
learned science with eachdietary theory. And I like to say
(31:22):
everyone's right. I mean,that's how I left school, that everyone's
theory is right. It wasn'tuntil eight years ago that my niche
and passion really came withwhole food plant based nutrition.
And then my studies expandedfrom there.
Wonderful. All right, let's,let's talk about your coaching business
(31:45):
because I think it's fascinating.
Thank you.
So tell, tell the plan. Strongaudience. What is your niche? Like
you, you probably work withall kinds of individuals, but like,
where do you feel like yourspecialty? Lies.
Get ready. We're, we'rebracing corporate executive men.
(32:13):
Incredible. And so why, why,how did that, how did that end up
Being the case.
It really started when Istarted working at the television
station in Miami. This bravesoul, the general manager hired me
(32:38):
for basically the team thereand I did some coaching for the staff
and then I took him on andhe's on my website, John Lebonia.
And he lost over 60 poundswith me. He was a meat and potatoes
man back then. Like Imentioned, I taught more vegetarian
(33:02):
and we ended up all trainingfor the Mercedes Benz corporate run.
So it really started with Johnand then from there kind of moved
after that. I had men andwomen I was coaching at the station,
but then I ended up getting,you know, a few women one on one
coaching clients in Naples.And then I had one gentleman come
(33:25):
down from Los Angeles who wasjust here this weekend. He's been
with me about eight years now.
Wow, that's. That says a lotabout, about your, your, I think
not only your coaching, butyour ability to kind of really connect
with somebody.
Well, thank you. And actuallyI still speak with John Lebonia.
He's kept his weight off. Ithink he lost a total of £60. Now.
(33:50):
I keep sending more plantbased things to him, you know, by
text and stuff from the stateTV station. But yeah, so Amir, who's
also on my website, he washere this weekend and he, you know,
he's just one of my favoriteclients. He ended up telling all
his friends back home when hehad his results. I have a team, I
(34:13):
have about four people on myteam and we do heart rate conditioning.
So we work and we work withGarmin. And so we ended up training
Amir and his team in hisbusiness for a bike race and they
all had great results and itjust started moving in that direction
(34:33):
with his friends. So.
Yeah, well, and, and becauseI've read your story and because
you've shared, shared whathappened with your father, you also
feel like this is also a veryhealing process for you as well.
(34:54):
Being able to coach some ofthese, you know, high powered executive
men that are probably incertain aspects of their life, you
know, a mess. Right.Especially their health, I would
imagine. And how gratifyingthat must be.
It really is. It's reallygratifying to have somebody contact
(35:19):
me and say, look, I want todrop 80 pounds. You know, I don't
feel good. Super successful,you know, in their family, personal
life and business and yeah,their health. I think part of it
for a lot of my clients, theydon't really. We look together, you
(35:39):
know, I call it under the hoodof the car, you know, really of what
the blood work showing whereTheir hormone levels are like, there's
so much to it. And it takesabout a year working with me, minimum.
And then people go on amaintenance plan once they lose the
weight. But it is so rewardingto see somebody drop 10 pounds, 20
(35:59):
pounds, 30 pounds. I mean,we've had up to 100 pounds as you,
as you've seen, you know, withyour clients and customers. And it
is so rewarding. I jump out ofbed every day, Love what I do, especially
now that I'm plant based.
Yeah.
And it's, it's such a humblingcareer. And I do think of my dad,
(36:27):
you know, every day because mydad was so heavy when he, as I mentioned,
when he passed. And I rememberhe'd be in these dark rooms, even
though he'd be out in theworld, but then he'd come home and
eat at night and just beashamed that he's eating and hide
it. And I've been there, youknow, myself. So it's great to work
through all that with thesegentlemen and even my female clients.
(36:50):
So.
What do you think it is aboutyou and your personality and your
approach, your methodologythat makes you a successful coach?
This is your chance to brag on yourself.
(37:14):
You know, that's not easy for me.
Well, but you always say, gotto get out of your comfort zone.
Let's do it.
I'm here with you today. Ofcourse I am. I like to. You know,
I was telling a couple healthcoaches last week, I'm mentoring
one specifically at Lululemonbecause I'm partnering with them
the next this year. And Isaid, let's get you your first client.
(37:38):
I said, but let me teach youfirst. And I'm going to help her.
I said, you got to pretendlike you're putting a piece of tape
over your mouth when youcoach. And so I would say I listen
actively, more than talk. Idon't give advice. And I really hear
(37:58):
my clients, I really heartheir struggle, what they're dealing
with, just letting them vent,getting it out. You know, they don't
need me for a diet they don'tneed me for. I can give them your
book and they're good to go,you know, or a PDF of something.
But it's really just havingsomeone to listen for an hour of
what they're dealing with andthen they feel better and then they
(38:19):
don't go eat the Oreos at night.
Yeah, you, when you startedout, you mentioned that there was
a book that kind of inspiredyou, and you use it now with some
of your male, male, maleClients along with another one. What
are those two books?
(38:40):
This is where you get to brag.So my first book is your book.
Ah, my Beef with Meat. Wow.
Yes. Yep. And I this onebecause the biggest challenge for,
for all of my clients isgetting off of meat. You know, chicken
(39:01):
especially. But you know, thishas been for me too. I'm an oat blood
type again, going back to theblood types which I learned in school.
I'm a hunter gatherer, so Ireally need kind of that feeling
of a lot of beans or a lot oftofu or tempeh or just things that
feel like I'm eating chicken.So I have found this book really
(39:24):
helpful. And then also this ismy favorite. Who I met at, at your,
at my first retreat at yourPlan strong retreat in 2017.
Aaron Spitz.
Yep. So these are the twobooks that I recommend.
(39:45):
You mentioned. I want to goback to something you mentioned a
couple minutes ago that you,you work with Garmin or you have,
or your clients, maybe youhave them wear Garmin and that way
you can monitor their, theirsleep, their exercise, their heart
rates, all their vitals. Howimportant has, have you found that
(40:06):
to be as you're, as you'recoaching these men and women, that
relationship?
Yeah, extremely important. Iused to wear Garmin myself when I
was racing, so I love theirproducts. I'm now moving in the direction
with them with Garmin Health,which is another division and more
around the health aspect,especially with whole food, plant
(40:28):
based nutrition and how thatreally changes, you know, our heart
rate. Lower, higher, all ofit. And, but we use the Garmin watches,
we use the scale and now bloodpressure cuff, which, which is interesting
that I've, I've gotten to seeover the last 15 years being in practice
because we used to. I have twobrothers that are with me in my company
(40:51):
and one of them, Yarrow, who'smy right hand man, he's been with
me for nine years. So hewrites the heart rate programs for
our clients. We use trainingpeaks as our platform and then we
use Garmin the products. Andit's great because our clients can't
hide. We see everything. So ifthey didn't get a workout in, we
(41:14):
know, right? Or they did, weknow. And so we're every day in communication
with our clients. We take on acertain amount of people per year
and we just, we see theirscale and you know, their weight.
What we do each month is wepull reports for their doctors as
well if they want that. But wego over it with our clients so they
(41:35):
can see the changes in realtime. And so it's made a huge difference
because, you know, people loseweight and they feel good and you
can see it. But when they canreally, aside from blood work and
see the changes and you cansee the changes in the data, it makes
a huge difference. It'saccountable. They're accountable.
Do you also have them keep afood log? And if so, through what
(42:00):
app or what methodology do you use?
We don't.
Okay, so that, that sounds,that sounds very intentional.
No food log, no countingcalories for our clientele. I said
to a client this morning, weknow our clients don't even have
a minute to go to thebathroom. So we help them find ways
(42:25):
to, you know, order the foodfor them, whatever they need, ship
it to them, you know, helpthem just get their workout in. They
have family careers, sothey're not going to sit there and
be journaling. We tried it fora few years in the beginning, and
it just, I don't even keep afood log. So I try and bring my,
(42:45):
what I do and what Yaro doesand, you know, what works for us.
And it's worked really wellbecause our clients don't want to
write down everything.
Well, let me ask you this,because I, I, I agree, once you get
the hang of it. Absolutely.But I find that so many people, especially
in the beginning, they thinkthey know how to do it right, and
(43:08):
they're not, they're justslipping up left, right and center.
And so to me, I find it's anice way to kind of course correct
along the way, especially thefirst couple months. What, what about
taking a quick photo and justlike sending off a photo as a text?
No, you don't want them tomess with that either.
Well, what we do is so we, Ido a revisit form every week. So
(43:29):
our clients, I'll meet with aclient once, one hour each week.
And so I will have them fillout a revisit form, which on the
revisit form, it's a onepager. It has breakfast, lunch, dinner,
and they will fill that out. Iwon't say every week they do, but
if they don't, I have oneprinted, ready to go, and I help
them, you know, I'll talk tothat, talk it through with them.
(43:49):
Yeah, So I do it that way.Now, pictures. We do have our clients
take pictures. I have toremind them, like, take a picture
of your dinner tonight.They're not ones that are like, thinking
about, let me take a picture.
Right.
Our client, you know, theyhave two Phones or on the airplane,
(44:10):
their kids are calling, theirteam needs them. Whatever's going
on, I get it.
So these are high poweredexecutives. How do you deal with
these huge executive egos?
I don't think, I think I'veonly had one ego in 15 years. I don't
(44:34):
really attract clients thathave these high, big egos. I don't
know if it's because they wereheavy and they've been so uncomfortable
and have gone through so muchin their life. Whether people make
fun of them or, you know,they've had so many struggles, they
don't have the ego yet. Andeven, even after they lose all the
(44:57):
weight, they're still reallydown to earth people. So I don't,
I've only had like one ladywho, you know, came across like,
you know, one of these peoplethat they want to be smarter than
you, and that's okay. I justsay, yeah, you know, more than me,
that's fine. It doesn't bother me.
(45:18):
Yeah.
But I've been very fortunateto attract a certain type of client
that. Yeah. I think a big partis they've struggled for so long
with not feeling good thatthey don't have it. That makes sense.
Yeah. And what, what percentof the, of your clients would you
say have come through word of mouth?
(45:43):
99%.
Right. Well, it's the bestkind, right?
Yeah.
You use the Garmin for heartrate. What have you found? Because
it sounds like a lot of yourclients, they're whining and dining.
They're entertaining clients.I would imagine alcohol typically
seem to fit into thatlifestyle. And I don't do alcohol.
(46:07):
Haven't for a long time, but Iknow people that do. It messes with
their sleep, it messes withtheir resting heart rate when they
wake up in the morning. Haveyou found that to be the case and
do you try and dissuade themfrom doing alcohol?
Yes, Most of them drink. Theywant to stop. So I work with them
to help them with that. Yes.It, it disrupts everything. Their
(46:31):
mood, their sleep, their. Theway they're eating, everything, you
know, their sex life, erectiledysfunction. And so I don't drink
either. I might have one. I, Itell myself, you can have one a year
because it really affects me,but I usually don't end up having
(46:53):
it. And I know for me, if I,if I do have one drink, I get night
sweats or I just don't feelgood. So I work with my clients.
I'm not very strict with myclients, and I think that's one of
the things that has made mesuccessful, I would tell you that.
(47:16):
But to answer your question,with alcohol, I really try and have
my clients completely get off alcohol.
Yep.
Do they? Here and there. Ihave one client who's been with me,
I think, seven years now, andhe's been sober. He just celebrated
six years. And I went to hisfirst AA meeting with him in Los
(47:39):
Angeles, and I'm just so proudof him. He stayed with it.
Yeah.
Yeah. The poison. We knowthat, right?
Yeah. It's every organ in the body.
Yeah.
So you say that. That beinghealthy is all about lifestyle choices
(48:03):
around nutrition, which I feellike we've talked about exercise,
relationships, careers, andthen spirituality. So that's kind
of a branch of this wheel or apillar of it that I'd love for you
to tell me about. What. Whatare your. Your thoughts and your
(48:24):
beliefs when it comes to spirituality?
So I grew up Jewish, and Iwent to Hebrew school, and I went
to high school in Israel. AndI don't practice Judaism today, but
it was something that, in myearly years, it really set a wonderful
(48:45):
foundation for me. And I thinklater on in life, I started moving
into more of the. Just. Iwould try meditation here and there,
but it was more of a. Youknow, I went to Thailand, and so
the Buddhist and all of that.But for spirituality for me, today
(49:08):
is just taking time formyself. And this is something with
self care that I teach myclients. Just. I think for my clients,
it's. If they have a, youknow, getting a massage, spirituality,
it might sound kind of funny,but just having self, you know, care
(49:30):
time, going out for a walk.And I would say that's more the spirituality
piece. And then I bring intranscendental meditation, which
I've been doing for since2017. And I have. My clients go through
TM and I work with teachersall over the country, and it's such
a simple practice that it'ssomething. I just started with a
(49:53):
new client last week inMichigan, and she's already gone
through tm. And it's designedfor very busy, stressful people.
So it's very simple. You justclose your eyes, you have your mantra,
and it's easy. There'snothing. No app. There's nothing
to do. They have an app. Butit's. I try and find simple things
for people to get in touchwith their spirituality, and that's.
(50:15):
TM is part of that.
Yeah, I really. I like that.And it's amazing how many people
I've come and come intocontact with lately that tell me
that they Try and do meditate.Right. Half an hour when they wake
up and half an hour beforethey go to bed. And how it's just
been a game changer for them.And I am still, I still, I.
(50:41):
Was going to say, do you meditate?
I, I, you know, my, mymeditation is usually in motion when
I'm swimming or when I'm outfor a walk or usually it's movement,
it's not sitting still, whichI need to do. I need it. I, I really
don't have too many excusesexcept, you know, three young kids,
(51:03):
a wife, career, and yeah,normally the thought of getting an
extra half an hour sleep isreally nice.
I think you'd enjoy tm.
Yeah, Yeah, I do too. I dotoo. I just needed, I need to, like,
commit. Do it.
I'll support you in that.
(51:23):
Okay, good. Thank you. So tellme when you've, when you're bringing
on a new client, do you letthem know that, okay, this is how
things are going to work andwe're going to focus on these five
aspects of your life. Do yousay nutrition? Do you say, I want
(51:47):
you to start leaning intowhole food plant based. I want you
to start exercising 30 minutesa day. Want you to start meditating.
I mean, how does that work?
I'm laughing because I had aclient who was referred to me from
another client, and he goes, Iwant to hire you. I want the results
(52:09):
my friend had. But I'm notgoing vegan. Okay.
Yeah.
I said, okay, well, just knowwe are going to move in that direction.
Are you okay with that? Andwe'll go slow because it will be,
you know, it's about wholefoods. And then he was like, oh,
oh, okay.
(52:29):
Right.
So I guess to answer yourquestion, it depends. Everybody's
different. And I havesomething called the circle of life
that I use that I showdifferent areas like you talked about.
(52:50):
And we'll go through that andI'll have them take a test, a little
quiz thing, which I mentionedI do a lot of. But again, everyone
is coming from so manydifferent avenues. When they start
with me, the direction and thestructure in the beginning is to
get them a garment watch andget them a scale. So we have the
tracking. So we always startthere. They do before and after photos.
(53:15):
I'll have them fill out ahealth history form so we have the
background and a physicalactivity form for my guys to be able
to start putting their programtogether with training peaks. So
there is a system, I wouldsay, for someone that comes to us
with severe heart disease, I'mGoing to ship them your dad's book,
(53:37):
prevent a reverse heartdisease, which I studied with your
dad, his program last year,which I was so excited about.
Yeah.
And so it depends on theseverity and what they're coming
to us for if they want to getoff seven medications. I'm going
to say, look, before you hireme, we're going to go whole food
plant based, no salt, oil,sugar. It's going to be strict. Can
(54:00):
you do it? Because that'swhere you're going to get the results.
And they'll say yes or no. Soit's a small percentage of people
that we work with that dowhole food plant based. Yeah.
Let's say you're, you'reworking with somebody and they have
an awful week. They've fallenoff the rails. They don't do anything
(54:21):
quite right. What do you do tokind of get them back on track?
I'll listen, I'll see what'sgoing on, you know.
Yeah.
What's going on at home?What's going on with your wife? What's
going on with the kids? What'sgoing on at work? What are you stressed
about? Did you meditate lastnight? Did you meditate this morning?
Morning. Did you drink water?I'm a big juicer. I work also with
(54:47):
Hippocrates in West Palmbeach. So I love green juice. So
I find green juice companiesall over different locations for
them. And I'll just go downthe list of things. How was your
sleep last night? Did youdrink alcohol? Did you take a sleeping
pill? You know, I asked allthe questions very quickly to get
(55:08):
to quickly. What's going on?Did you eat a lot of sugar last night?
And I could pretty much. Weknow in a second. And they know.
My clients know their bodiesbetter than I do.
Yeah.
What do you think it is?What's going on?
You know, it almost soundslike. So we've got three electric
(55:29):
cars and every one of them youcan go in and find, see where the
car is at any point in theday. Where they're, if they're driving,
where they are, where they'reparked, park. It almost seems like
a little bit of an invasion, right?
Sounds like a Tesla.
Well, there's, there's,there's, there's many that have that
capability. But it sounds likeyou have that same, like, you know,
(55:53):
you, you, you have the insidetrack into what's going on with these
men and women, which is, whichis, you know, it's great.
Thank you.
Let me ask you.
I know because I, I was there,right you know, personally.
Yeah. Let me ask you this.This is so, so many of these. Let's
(56:14):
just right now segment thisinto the high powered executive men
that you're dealing with andfor any of the listeners that also
the women that are married toa high powered executive male or
vice versa. But how importantis it for you to connect with that
(56:36):
spouse so that, that it's kindof a team effort.
It's funny. Usually the wiveswill call me, we need you for my
husband. So that's usually theword of mouth. Usually if it's not
a friend of a friend, youknow, a gentleman and his friend,
it's usually a wife will callme and say, I need you for my husband.
(57:00):
You know, he's a mess. But toanswer your question, I don't interact
with the spouses. I will givemy client. You know, I might say,
is it okay if I get yourwife's email or your partner's email
and send them some recipes foryou for them to cook or the chef
(57:22):
or somebody maybe from thatperspective, if they're cooking.
But as far as it'sinteresting, I actually coach the
men to be, I don't like to usethe word better, but hey, do you
know your wife's lovelanguage? You know, is it acts of
service? Is it, you know,physical touch? What is it? And I
(57:46):
might have him go take a quizwith her. So I'm always like in the
relationship area, findingways for them to connect with their
spouses with, with their wivesmore than it's something she's doing
over there.
Yeah.
It's really about the guy andhis body and, and how he's relating
(58:09):
to his partner. Does thatanswer your question?
Yeah. Yeah. What is, what'sthe most difficult thing about being
a health coach?
Probably with the whole foodplant based diet. I know it works.
(58:32):
And sitting back whensomeone's not ready to go there fully
and giving them the time toget there or not get there, that's
probably the hardest partbecause I live it. And I'll be 50
years old in July. No meds, noBotox, nothing. I don't even think
(59:01):
I have a filter. I may have atiny one on here, but no. And my
mom worked for adermatologist, so I was never in
the sun even when I raced. Ialways did things at night or early
in the morning. But I feel, Iwish I, when I was an ironman, I
wish I was plant based. Iprobably would have gone professional.
(59:22):
Yeah.
You know, and I feel 20 yearsyounger. @ my age, I just can't even
believe the difference. Sothat's probably the hardest part.
When people are on keto andnot ready and just sitting back until
they are right.
What is the best thing aboutbeing a health coach?
(59:47):
The best thing about being ahealth coach? That's a great question.
There's so many, I think justthe connection that I have with my
clients. It's like aprofessional family. You know, they,
(01:00:07):
they, they allow me into theirlives, you know, everything they're
dealing with and who they are,and they're just meeting me and they're
just telling me their wholelife story, and there's so much compassion.
And I feel so honored, youknow, that they're letting me in
their life. And so that'sprobably the biggest thing for me.
(01:00:32):
Well, one of, one of yourmost. One of your great success stories
just happened to be, if I'mnot mistaken, your own mother. Right.
Oh, God, she drives me crazy.And I love her.
Victoria.
Yes, Victoria. She'll be sohappy you mentioned her name.
(01:00:52):
Yeah, well, it sounds likeshe's crushing it.
She is, and it really has. I'mso proud of her. She's been whole
food plant based for eightyears now or nine years. She's, you
know, stayed with it. It'sbrought a different level of a relationship
with us. I feel like she's myhealth coach sometimes. She's always
(01:01:13):
showing me new things andgiving me things and. But she's a
big fan of your food. And Iremember when your burgers came out,
she shipped me all theseburgers. She was so excited. Before
I even knew. So I'm reallyproud of my mom for. At her age,
she's 76 and she had someblockage. It went away. She got off
(01:01:34):
Synthroid. I mean, all thesedoctors told her it's her age, and
I'm like, no, mom, just trustme. Give me a year. We're gonna do
this together. And she did.
So do you have a coach in your life?
Oh, God, yeah. So many. Yes.I've always had a coach. Yarrow,
(01:01:58):
who works with me, is mycoach. He trains me every. I pay
him just like a client. And Ijust, I'm gonna hire my personal
trainer here in town and getback into strength training. So I
have him, David. I have abusiness coach. I have a coach from
Landmark. I have a mentor,Michelle, who's been my, my mentor
(01:02:23):
25 years. So I have a lot ofpeople around me, and I feel like
that's really what got meinterested in becoming a coach. You
know, I never would have madeor completed Ironman Hawaii. My first
time doing Ironman Floridawithout a incredible coach.
(01:02:45):
So do you have a coach I like?I don't. I don't.
Oh, I'd love to coach you.
I need five. Five or six.
How about just for tm?
Right. You mentioned threethings that are, I think, important.
(01:03:06):
One is courageous action. Twois to have a support team. And three
is never give up. You do thosethree things, you can do almost anything.
And I couldn't agree with youmore. But what do you mean by courageous
action? Give me an example.
(01:03:26):
Having that phone call thatyou're afraid to have and you've
been putting off. Having theconversation that you're putting
off or procrastinating thatyou haven't had in 10 years with
your wife. You know, somethingyou've been hiding or something you're
ashamed of or something.Something you're not happy with and
(01:03:47):
you're afraid to say, youknow, some type of communication.
You know, buying a pair ofrunning shoes and you're 80 pounds
overweight, and you go to therunning store and you buy a pair
of shoes and you get outside.That's a courageous action. Going
and getting your firstcolonic, which I'm a big fan of having.
(01:04:08):
You know, sending my clientsto different wellness centers to
have a colonic. That's a bigdeal. No one wants to talk about
it. It's like, you know, thepenis book? No one wants to talk
about that. But these arethings that healed my IBS, you know,
20 years ago, colonhydrotherapy. So it's part of my
(01:04:29):
practice. I bring it up. Sothese are courageous actions that
are not comfortable, but youtake action anyways. That is going
to bring you greater healthand vitality.
You have.
Did I lose you at colonic?
No, no, no, no, no, no. It'shard to lose me. Yeah, I like. And
(01:04:55):
I don't know who you said thisto, but you told it to somebody.
Maybe it was your mother,maybe it's one of your clients. You
said, you're not going to fitin, you're going to fit out. Because
they're like, oh, I bet I'mnot going to fit in. And you're like,
that's okay. You're going tofit out. Maybe until you fit in.
But what did you mean by that exactly?
(01:05:17):
I actually first heard thatline from my dear friend and mentor
who started my nutritionschool, Joshua Rosenthal. Yeah, that
was his tagline in school.Like, it's okay that so many of you
feel like you don't fit in.And I've always felt like I never
fit in. I was always one ofthese, you know, even as a kid, you
(01:05:41):
know, running at nine yearsold. And then I came out to my family
as a gay woman when I was 18,which was a huge deal. Nice Jewish
girl. I didn't know any gaypeople. I just shared with my mom
and was very scared. That wasa courageous act. And then, you know,
(01:06:01):
moving into this directionwith being an Ironman, I feel like
that was fitting out. Who'sdoing that and then going whole food
plant based. I mean, this hasprobably been the one big thing for
me of fitting out. It's such asmall percentage that are eating
this way in S.O.S. you know,no salt, oil, and sugar.
(01:06:24):
Yeah. Well, you know what? Youknow what I love about all that I
think the most is that youtalk about how important it is to
have an authentic relationshipwith yourself. And I think by by
establishing an authenticrelationship with yourself, you can
then have these amazing,strong relationships with others.
(01:06:47):
But it really does start withyourself. And I read that in your.
Your story. You talk aboutthat. So, I mean, kudos to you.
Thank you. I know. I'mfollowing you. You read everything.
It's not an easy journey, youknow, to get to that place, to be
(01:07:08):
authentic. And I probablywould not have shared all this with
you, you know, 15 years ago.So it's really been a lot of work
on myself. And that's thespirituality part to get here, be
able to say this on national television.
That's right.
National podcast, our new version.
(01:07:31):
Yeah. Yeah. Well, Joy. I'mgonna call you Joy. Is there anything
that you would like to saybefore we wrap this up? I just. Let
me say that it's been such ajoy reading up on you, getting to
(01:07:53):
know about your journey, yourauthentic self that is kind of now
moving through this world andhelping people through your incredible
coaching practice. And I lovethe fact that you're. You're helping.
(01:08:14):
Helping men who seem to. Whoseem to be the most obstinate and
stubborn when it comes tomaking these changes. And you have
such an amazing presence andcalmness and equanimity about you
that it's easy for me tounderstand why your practice is thriving
and why these powerful men areso attracted to your style.
(01:08:35):
Thank you. I appreciate that.I do want to say how excited I am
to be here with you. And Ialso want to say that when I first
met you in 2017, it was inNorth Carolina at your retreat, and
(01:08:56):
it was actually a birthdaygift from my partner at the time.
She said what do you want?Anything in the world. And I said
to go to Rip Esselstyn's retreat.
Yeah.
And I went. And I remembermeeting you. I'd sent some pictures
to Carrie from back in theday, and I was. I just. I'm very
inspired by you, you know, thefact that your background and everything
(01:09:20):
you've done and everythingyou're doing, and, you know, I just
want you to know it's such anhonor to be here with you today.
I'm constantly sharing yourproducts and your books and just
who you are as a man in theworld. You know, it's not a lot of
convincing because I'll say,take Rip's book. You know, get on
this website. This is mycoaching talk.
(01:09:42):
Yeah.
And they do. And becauseyou're a triathlete, you know, I'm
like, he's a triathlete. Hewas a firefighter. Like, they relate
to you. So I want to thank youfor what you're doing in the world.
You've made a huge differencein my life, my mom's life, and my
clients. So you're doingamazing work. That's what I want
to say.
(01:10:02):
Yeah. Well, it's very nice ofyou to say all that. I. Yes, I very
much appreciate it. And Joy,that was really, really kind of you.
Thank you for those. Thosenice words. I have so enjoyed spending
the last hour with you andgetting to know you, and you're my
(01:10:26):
plant strong sister.
Thank you. I look forward todoing future things with you.
Yeah.
I am going to follow up withyou about tm. Don't think I'm a coach.
Okay. All right, you do that.Hey, can you. Can we finish with
a virtual Plan Strong fist bump?
Yes.
(01:10:47):
I can't see it. There it is. Bam.
Maybe I should bring thegarment in since we're out here.
Yeah. Yeah. All right, bye.
Thank you so much. Thank you.
For more information onMichelle and her coaching practice,
visit michellejoykramer.com Iso appreciate her approach to coaching
(01:11:10):
and habit change with all ofher clients. Start small and then
develop sustainable habits.And never underestimate. Underestimate
the power of a mindfulnesspractice. Real change is possible
with the right mindsetsupport, and, of course, plan strong
plate. Thanks so much forlistening and as always, always keep
(01:11:35):
it Plan strong. The PlanStrong podcast team includes Carrie
Barrett, Lori Cordowicz, andAmy Mackey. If you like what you
hear, do us a favor and sharethe show with your friends and loved
ones. You can always leave afive star rating and review on Apple
podcasts or Spotify. And whileyou're there, make sure to hit that
(01:11:57):
follow button so that younever miss an episode. As always,
this and every episode isdedicated to my parents, Dr. Caldwell
B. Esselstyn Jr. And Ann KreilEsselstyn. Thanks so much for listening.
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