In this episode, I’m joined by Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby—a psychologist, marriage and family therapist, and founder of Growing Self Counseling & Coaching—for an important conversation about how our struggles as parents affect our kids, especially during seasons of divorce, separation, or personal crisis. We explore what parents need to know when navigating big transitions, why your own emotional health directly influences your child’s, and how to make decisions with confidence and clarity.
We also talk about co-parenting with intention, modeling emotional resilience, and why being the parent you want to be starts with becoming the healthiest version of yourself. Whether you’re navigating relationship challenges, dealing with personal setbacks, or simply trying to show up better for your kids, this episode is full of insight, perspective, and practical encouragement.
You can find Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby's website and FREE resources at:
https://www.growingself.com/
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Ask Me Questions: Call (813) 812-5525, or email: brenna@thekidcounselor.com
Podcast HQ: https://www.playtherapyparenting.com/
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My Podcast Partner, Gabb Wireless: https://www.playtherapyparenting.com/gabb/
Common References:
Landreth, G.L. (2023). Play Therapy: The Art of the Relationship (4th ed.). Routledge.
Bratton, S. C., Landreth, G. L., Kellam, T., & Blackard, S. R. (2006). Child parent relationship therapy (CPRT) treatment manual: A 10-session filial therapy model for training parents. Routledge/Taylor & Francis Group.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:02):
You're listening to the
Play Therapy Parenting Podcast with Dr. Brenna Hicks.
Hi,
I'm Dr. Brenna Hicks,
The Kid Counselor.
This is the Play Therapy Parenting Podcast where I give you insight,
awareness,
and enlightenment about your parenting
and your relationship with your kids.
Today's episode,
we have a special episode.
(00:22):
I typically do not do guests,
but
I have Doctor Lisa Marie Bobby on with me today,
and I'm so excited about this.
She is going to tell you all about herself,
but she is a marriage and family therapist specializing in working with families
and specifically adults,
obviously,
and so I'm so excited to have her insight and perspective,
(00:44):
how we navigate.
Things that happen in our lives as families,
as parents,
how that impacts our kids,
how that influences the things that we need to do,
and just kind of the broad scope of all things related to being a family,
we're going to dive in.
So,
Lisa,
thank you so much for being here.
Can you tell everyone about you a little bit?
(01:05):
Thank you so much,
Brenna.
It's such a pleasure.
yeah,
well,
I mean,
you summed it up so nicely.
I'm a marriage and family therapist.
I'm also a psychologist.
I'm a board certified coach,
which makes me very focused,
I think,
on
outcomes and results.
And yes,
in my practice,
so I founded Growing Self Counseling and Coaching.
And we specialize in growth,
(01:27):
love,
happiness,
and success for adults.
But really with the focus of
how are we as adults developing ourselves
personally in order to feel happy,
fulfilled,
like we're being the best version of ourselves,
going through challenging life transitions,
like breakups or divorces,
with an eye on how does this help us evolve?
(01:48):
And then certainly,
how do we have healthy,
happy,
fulfilling relationships.
With
friends,
families,
partners,
ourselves,
our children,
and then success in whatever way you define that,
but with the idea being,
are you fulfilling your life's purpose,
personally,
professionally,
(02:09):
and what do you need to do to create that for yourself?
So that is what I do,
and I'm so thrilled.
to be here today to talk with you and
your community about this incredibly important aspect of life,
which is,
how do we be the kind of parent
that we want to be?
Because that touches on all of those dimensions.
I mean,
I think I have yet to meet a person
(02:30):
with children
who would say
that
anything is more important
than the happiness and well-being of their kids.
That is like the ultimate definition of success,
right?
And so there's a lot here for us to discuss.
A lot,
yes,
and we'll whittle down for time's sake and just logistics,
(02:52):
but yes,
we're gonna dive into as much as we possibly can,
so.
One of your areas of expertise is
divorce and separation and breakups and
and what that looks like just for the family unit,
for the individuals,
and obviously in our work,
you know,
we're child-centered play therapists
and all of the parenting stuff that I put out is through that child-centered lens.
(03:14):
So
my audience is familiar with the child-centered
approach as well as the parenting stuff,
but
it's interesting because we can't
extract one from the other.
And when we think about the stuff that we go through just in everyday life,
it naturally has a trickle down effect to our children.
And so one of the things we talk about on the podcast all the time
(03:35):
is becoming the best version of ourselves that
we can and being intentional and purposeful and thoughtful
to make changes that we need to make and
think about things we need to think about,
and it's just awareness and it's focused attention.
So I think this is going to be so valuable,
so helpful,
and and and parents really,
my audience specifically,
(03:56):
but I think parents in general,
we're seeing a little bit of a shift,
and I've actually kind of been identifying this recently.
I think there was a stretch where
parents became a little bit disengaged.
I think parents kind of
got into this mentality of,
I just,
you know,
kids can just be kids and do their thing.
And we're seeing a little bit of a shift to more engagement,
(04:17):
more investment,
more attention,
and that is such a beautiful thing for our
society and for our culture and for our country.
Yet at the same time,
I also think that
we have these ideals and sometimes the practical application is what's missing.
So I know that today we're going to get some practical application,
which I'm really looking forward to.
(04:40):
So let's start with the topic of separation
or divorce because I know that statistically,
you know,
that's really high numbers,
and I know that a lot of my audience
is either actively going through a divorce or separation,
or they have in the past.
So
I'd like to spend a little bit of time on that,
then we'll pivot away from that and talk about some more universal things.
But
what do you think in your role as a marriage and
(05:03):
family therapist and a psychologist and you specialize in this,
so this is kind of your
realm.
What
do parents need to understand
about how
a divorce and or a separation
impacts their children?
What,
what effects does that have?
And not necessarily from the clinical side of the children,
but what do parents need to be mindful of
(05:23):
so that parents can actually do something
in
response,
because it's not just,
oh gosh,
there's all of these effects,
but what,
what could do parents need to be aware of
so that there's an antidote for these things.
OK.
Well,
Brenna,
it just so happens I have very strong opinions on this subject,
and
I love strong opinions.
(05:43):
If it's,
if it's OK,
could we even just like back up a little bit further because you asked,
as a marriage and family therapist,
like,
what do parents really need to know?
And I think that before we even get
to having to make hard decisions about a divorce.
For separation,
there is
really important stuff that almost nobody knows that can make a huge difference
(06:10):
in long term outcomes.
For example,
did you know
that most therapists who see couples for couples counseling
have no specialized education or training
in marriage and family therapy?
Like,
very few.
So what happens is that a couple gets into a rough patch,
(06:34):
as literally all couples do.
There's not a relationship in the history of the world
that doesn't have stuff to work through,
right?
But people make the mistake of choosing an unqualified provider.
As
many people do,
or deciding,
well,
we need to go through our health insurance to pay for this,
(06:55):
having no idea
that improving your relationship is not
medically necessary treatment for anything,
so they wind up with a clinical mental health person
who will then diagnose and seek to treat the psychiatric
disorder in one of the partners.
So in either of those situations,
Brenna,
You have a couple with a sincere interest and a very real need
(07:18):
in making positive changes in their relationship,
and then they go to couples counseling.
It quite predictably doesn't work.
And
this poor couple is left with this,
oh,
well,
what does that mean about us?
We went to marriage counseling.
(07:39):
We tried everything,
and
I guess the only choice
is
to separate or divorce when that may not
be
true.
And it makes me absolutely crazy because,
you know,
Kids can be OK in the aftermath of a divorce and and frequently are,
(08:01):
but it is a very difficult life path,
and it's very stressful,
and it's nothing that anybody wants.
And when you consider the alternative,
here's something that is so beautiful and
important for kids is to witness their parents
tackling.
Relational issues head on in an authentic,
(08:24):
loving,
committed way,
and doing the work in order to be better partners for each other,
seeking to improve their communication,
the way they show love and respect.
I mean,
our kids are watching
how we solve.
Problems.
And it's not just like,
oh,
look at how happy my parents are.
(08:44):
We are
silently teaching our children
how to have healthy,
high quality relationships
with their own partners in the future.
So there's a lot at stake here because if all the kids sees as they were fighting a lot.
They try to go to counseling,
maybe it didn't work,
and then we got divorced.
Where is the roadmap
(09:05):
for how to heal and grow a relationship?
And I work with many adults who,
uh,
do not have a fundamental map of the
world in which relationship repair is even possible.
Because they saw their parents get divorced,
perhaps a few times.
And I think that's a really sad thing.
(09:26):
So that would actually be my,
my number one thing,
like,
how do we as adults help our kids with divorce is first of all,
do a really good job
of finding out if that air quote final solution.
It really is,
and maybe it is,
but I've it's also true that there are
some situations that are absolutely not sustainable,
they're not safe,
(09:47):
and it really does need to be done,
and that's OK.
But there's a lot of shades of gray,
and
just because you don't know how to
solve the relationship problems that you're experiencing
doesn't mean that they can't be solved.
And if it would be helpful to you,
I could talk more about
things that people can do
to help.
(10:08):
In that decision making process,
so that if they do decide to pull the plug and get divorced,
they can be quite confident
that that was the right decision,
because that will impact the way that they handle it and the way that they show up
for their kids.
And that's
what this is all about at the end of the day.
(10:28):
And parent's number one fear,
oftentimes is if we did end this,
what would it do to the kids?
Mhm.
Yeah,
so often,
it's a little different than the question that you asked.
No,
but I'm so glad that you responded in that way because
not my wheelhouse at all.
And so I'm actually really grateful to,
to kind of take it a step further back and
(10:50):
I had two thoughts as you were sharing your response.
So the first is you said that there's no
roadmap to healthy relationships if a child doesn't see it
exhibited and demonstrated and they don't
observationally learn what that looks like.
You know,
I think we have this connotation that
the word conflict or
confrontation,
for example,
(11:11):
is inherently a problem.
But
at its root,
the word confrontation or to confront is just to come in front of.
And I think often that what we miss is if we come in front of each other and we say,
hey,
here's my side of this.
I want to hear your side.
Let's figure out what we're going to do about
this once we know where the other person stands.
(11:33):
Confrontation is so important.
It's so valuable,
and it's such a positive thing.
And so I mean I think about that a lot.
We often see parents or we hear of parents that are like,
oh,
you know,
I just,
I don't want my kids to see us fight.
I don't want my kids to hear us fight.
We're not doing them any justice or any service by trying to pretend
that everything is great all the time.
(11:54):
What we're actually teaching them is,
what does it look like to say I'm sorry?
What does it look like to take ownership and responsibility when we make mistakes?
What does it look like to be patient,
even when you don't want to be?
What does it look like to unconditionally love
someone when they're driving you up a wall?
What does it look like to choose to say something kind instead of something angry?
That is what we model for our kids,
(12:16):
and I think that that is so powerful.
Now here let me enlarge this a little bit.
You said there's no roadmap for
For the,
the healthy relationship,
otherwise repair repair.
OK,
so there's also no roadmap for parenting.
And this is one of the things we talk about on this podcast
all the time is we either parent the way we were parented,
(12:39):
or we hate the way we were parented
and we about-face and we say,
well,
I'm going to do something differently,
but in either scenario we're trapped in a limited set of options.
And so I think to kind of bring that back to what you're saying.
It seems as though there's a limited set of options often in parent's perception,
but what you're offering is,
but if you go to someone who's really highly trained and really knowledgeable and
(13:01):
can really help you think through this and talk through this and navigate this,
then regardless of the path that you end up on,
you know that you are confident and satisfied.
With the decisions that were made,
rather than going,
well,
maybe that wasn't what I should have done.
Maybe we didn't for that and
and all of the maybes and the might haves and the what ifs and whatever,
(13:22):
now all of a sudden that's a whole other layer.
Instead,
I know 100% for sure
that this is what needed to be done.
We worked on it and we figured it out,
or we said this is irreparable,
but we at least had advisement and knowledge
and awareness and understanding before we made that decision
and that absolutely would impact
(13:44):
the child's perception of all of that
because there's confidence in the outcome.
And even,
well,
to,
to clarify this a little bit more,
so there is a couple.
counseling or relationship coaching that is for
the purpose of improving a relationship.
And the premise is that two people are coming into that
with the intention of making a relationship better.
(14:06):
That expectation is like a prerequisite of that work,
but
not all couples are in that space.
So there's actually a totally different thing
that even a lot of marriage and family therapists
don't know about or practice,
and that is called discernment counseling or discernment coaching.
And that is not for the purpose of improving a relationship.
(14:29):
The entire thing is helping two people determine.
Is there a basis for working on it?
Do we want to do that?
Is there a commitment there?
If we did,
what would be involved?
Because sometimes when couples
start having problems,
like one person is leaning out,
(14:50):
one person is leaning in.
And so,
if two people aren't on the same page,
if they do try marriage counseling,
it won't work.
So what you're describing with discernment coaching,
the outcome of that is
clarity.
That's what it's for.
So I just wanted to throw that out to your listeners,
because I know that you and I are very much aligned in this belief
(15:14):
that who you work with
matters a lot.
That most people don't know about the
specialized skill sets that different therapists have and that not
Every therapist is the same.
And I think there's a therapy like umbrella term,
and you've been such a strong advocate for like,
no,
child-centered play therapy is this distinct thing.
(15:36):
There are different competencies,
and it's very much like this in the,
the couple's counseling and relational sphere.
But I think not enough people know about this.
So they can't make informed decisions in these crossroads moments,
and that can lead to long term outcomes
and consequences,
quite frankly.
So thank you for giving me just a second to say that out loud.
(15:57):
Yeah,
of course.
I'm so glad that's that's really helpful.
And again,
that's that's what this episode is about.
It's practical knowledge
and.
that you can actually apply so that you
feel confident in what's happening with your family.
So I'm really happy.
And then I just wanted to,
you all know,
my listeners know,
I'm a huge country music fan,
so I just recently stumbled across a song.
(16:19):
It's actually not new,
but I've never heard it before.
Rae Lynn is the artist and the song is called Love Triangle,
and it is absolutely one of the most
breathtakingly incredible songs about a child's perspective
of growing up in a divorced family.
And I've been listening to that for the last week or so,
and she basically,
(16:40):
her and and this is like her autobiographical song basically.
And so at 3 years old,
her parents divorced and she wrote the song from the perspective of
leaving mom to go be with dad for the timeshare with him and
then leaving dad to go be with mom for the timeshare with her,
and the chorus basically says,
and some of us get stuck in a love triangle.
(17:01):
And the premise is that if moms and dads are loving in a straight line,
then everything follows the path.
But then sometimes when things fracture and tatter and tear,
now all of a sudden it's mom and me and dad,
and it becomes a triangle.
Really,
really interesting premise of a song,
but I've been thinking a lot about that in terms
of the work that we do as child-centered play therapists
(17:23):
and in terms of how that affects our parenting and,
and what we need to be mindful of as we're navigating change.
that are going to take place in families.
And so
I wanted to kind of get your thoughts on co-parenting
because I know this is one of your specialties.
So
if you wouldn't mind,
what are,
what are the need to know for if you are in a situation where you are co-parenting?
(17:49):
What are the ways that we do this well?
What are the ways that we do this with purpose and intention?
What are the ways that we effectively manage a co-parenting scenario?
Oh
wow,
what a powerful question,
Branna.
OK.
And so
this one too has a bit of a deeper
layer,
because there are a couple of different things going on here.
(18:12):
On an internal,
individual
level,
when you as a parent,
are going through this type of transition,
Going through a separation,
going through a divorce,
you are going to have a lot of things happening inside of you,
big emotions,
confusing feelings,
(18:34):
lots of dark emotions,
and there is a ton.
Of very valuable work for you to do during this period,
so that you are effectively moving through all the different stages of this
and ideally
engaging in a very deep growth process
that allows you to come out the other side of this
(18:57):
stronger,
more clear,
more
Connected with your values and better able to create
the life that you want individually,
the relationships that you want in the future,
and of course,
to be the kind of parent
that you want to be.
And so this is a process.
So that
is actually,
(19:17):
if your goal is to be an effective co-parent,
Step
one
is to begin doing that
work
because when you do that,
you will work through all the feelings.
You will come to a place of calm and clarity.
Many people,
and this is going to sound
(19:37):
bananas,
but I'm gonna say it out loud.
I've talked to so many people about this.
They will say,
That
was a crappy experience.
I wish that hadn't happened,
did not enjoy that,
and
looking back,
There's this weird part of me that is so glad it did
because it changed so many things for me.
(19:59):
I would not be the person that I am today
had I not had the opportunity to do that really important work.
So when you're going through it,
it's like impossible to believe.
So just trust me on this.
Brenna,
you're great.
You're like,
this is a thing.
It,
I know that.
But so the way that this relates to a co-parenting relationship is that.
(20:22):
On a different level.
So remember on the base level,
you're doing your own stuff,
but on this top level
you also must
Be committed
to acting
from your values
and conducting yourself in a positive way that is
going to create positive outcomes for your kids,
(20:46):
no matter how you feel
while you are going through the process.
You go through it well,
you're gonna Come out the other side and it's gonna
feel easy,
but in the meantime,
you're gonna need to do some internal work on how do I manage myself in such a way
that I am not making anything worse and that I
am keeping my own side of the street clean,
(21:07):
no matter how I feel.
And that can be challenging to do.
But if you want to have a positive
co-parenting relationship,
you need to stop being so focused
on what your ex and now co-parent is doing
or not doing and start really focusing on
what are you doing
to regulate yourself,
(21:28):
to say the right thing,
even if you want to say something hostile,
right?
are you being consistent?
Are you being respectful?
Are you being supportive?
Are you being an effective negotiator
that is not
confusing everything with all of the big feelings that,
(21:48):
of course,
are coming up.
So it requires a lot of compartmentalization.
In order to be able to do that,
but that begins with you getting a lot of clarity around who you want to be
through this and allowing that ideal
to then guide your actions,
and your feelings
(22:08):
are,
sorry to say this,
irrelevant.
Unless,
of course,
we want to index your feelings of love for your child,
that
will help you be the person that you need to be.
Or your feeling of
courage to do what needs to be done even when you to,
or your feeling of discernment
(22:29):
that this is not something that I should say or do right now,
or your feeling of commitment where you say,
no matter what,
this is how I want to be.
So yes,
OK,
so let's unpack this a little bit.
So
I,
I often say,
and I actually shared this in the the clinical podcast too,
you know,
one of our
North Star
(22:50):
mantras.
What do I want my child at 25
when they are out of college,
they have their job,
they might be married at that point,
whatever,
they're around their adult peers,
and someone says,
what was your mom like?
What what do you remember about your dad?
What,
what stands out for you about the way that you were raised,
you know,
what,
what,
(23:10):
what did your parents do or not do?
What,
what do you remember?
That should influence every moment.
So similarly,
whatever we're going through right now,
it's a choice,
and quote,
your feelings don't matter,
meaning
you choose
something because it helps you become a better version of yourself,
(23:30):
not because you feel like doing something else.
Look,
any hard thing.
We have to override feelings because our feelings are like,
oh,
don't do that,
that's gonna be awful.
Oh,
don't do that.
That's gonna be so exhausting.
Oh gosh,
that's gonna be,
we,
we,
we can talk ourselves out of lots of things
because our feelings say we don't want to do it.
We'll avoid,
we'll distract,
(23:51):
we'll do all kinds of things.
That's all maladaptive coping to avoid doing something that's not gonna feel good,
but
doing hard things requires hard work.
So raising a child,
being an effective parent,
becoming the best version of ourselves that we can be.
We talk about self-actualizing all the time,
right?
Becoming the best version of yourself.
(24:13):
There is no way for us to do that unless we say
in this moment,
I choose.
To do
what's going to get me more closely aligned
with who I want to be.
And one of the things we've been talking about also lately is congruence.
So when our ideal self and our actual self is so far apart.
(24:33):
There's no way to bridge the gap anymore,
and
we have all kinds of dysfunction.
The closer our actual self becomes to the ideal,
the more we feel inspired and encouraged to keep self-actualizing.
So think about this,
we always have an opportunity in any moment when we're parenting.
To
(24:54):
do something that's self-enhancing,
to do something that's closely aligned with our ideal,
to do something that's going to
preserve the relationship with our child.
To do something that shows courage and
thought and intention rather than reactivity.
There's all of these moments that we have.
We have these choices that we make,
and every choice that we make one at a time.
(25:16):
We're not talking big picture here,
big steps,
climbing the mountain,
we're saying this moment.
I have a choice
and I choose to do the thing that's going to get me closer to who I want to be
and what I want to preserve in my relationship with my child.
You do it once,
it's easier to do it the second time.
You do it 2 times,
it's easier to do it the third time.
(25:36):
And then before you know it,
your ideal and your actual are actually pretty closely aligned,
which means you're very congruent.
And now all of a sudden you are the parent and you
are the person that you've been working so hard to become.
There's so much beauty in that simple act of choosing right now.
What do I need to do in this moment?
(25:59):
Oh,
Brenna,
that's beautiful,
and,
and some would say
that that choice is the very definition
of love.
Yes,
love is a verb,
right?
So,
so we choose,
and it's action.
That's very much true.
And,
and
to just underscore
(26:20):
the importance of what you're saying
is that
what you're
advocating,
Brenna,
is to get super clear around what those actions are,
like,
what,
what is,
what am I actually doing when I'm being in in alignment with my ideal self?
Because
if you're not super clear and like have a written list of things to do.
(26:45):
Particularly when you are going through a,
a breakup or a divorce,
you have such an emotional
hurricane
going on inside of you
that you actually cannot trust
the way that you think or the way that you feel for a period of time.
(27:07):
And so to have that clarity around,
this is what I need to do right now.
Because of the
biological things that are actually happening inside of you in these moments,
that's gonna be a lifeline,
cause if you don't have that clarity and you start acting on how
you think or how you feel in the moment during this very unique
(27:28):
Transition,
you're gonna make things worse,
not just for yourself or your co-parenting relationship,
but long term
for your kid.
Exactly,
and there's,
you know,
one of the things we talk about a lot is
the concept that
we
have
(27:48):
moments all throughout the day
where we can ask ourselves
what will most preserve the relationship in this moment
and or what will do the least harm.
Right.
So with those two as your litmus test,
if you will.
If I'm about to yell,
if I'm about to be hostile,
if I'm about to be
(28:08):
rude,
if I'm about to
say something hurtful,
whatever,
and this is to children,
to spouses,
to co-parents,
whatever,
it doesn't matter the scenario.
Those are moment by moment.
Opportunities to say what do I need to do right now
to most preserve the relationship,
do the least harm.
Sometimes that's
(28:29):
do the least harm for ourselves too.
It's preserve the relationship with ourselves because
when our ideal versus actual selves as parents
get further and further apart,
we start to blame ourselves and we start to feel guilty
and we start to have shame and we start to regret things and now all of a sudden that's
a whole other level of spiral to add on top of the other spirals that are going on.
(28:50):
And so really meaningful opportunities
to pause and say,
OK,
I'm going to be intentional in this moment and I'm going to choose
to say and do the things that are most closely aligned with who I want to be,
and that's a very,
very meaningful
opportunity
to become the better version of yourself in those little glimpses.
(29:14):
OK,
so
let's take this in a little bit of a different direction.
So we've been talking about divorce,
separation,
co-parenting.
What are your thoughts,
and I'm sure there's so much crossover and and overlap here.
So,
What are your thoughts on
the ways in which
our difficulties may be unrelated to
(29:34):
marital relationships?
So what if we lost our job?
What if we
are grieving the loss of a family member?
What if we are
in an anxious place in our lives,
we're just overwhelmed with anxiety,
if we are struggling
and we are a parent?
What does that look like?
(29:54):
What are the things that we need to be mindful of,
the influence on our kids,
the ways that we most effectively handle that,
because it's not always about,
you know,
we're we're losing a relationship per se.
We have our own stuff that we deal with and,
and really kind of where I'd like to focus a little bit is
we often think about putting ourselves aside
(30:16):
so that we can
do what's right by our children.
But we give out of the overflow,
and we have to be mindful that when we are struggling,
there's a ripple,
but often our kids are struggling too.
So how,
how do we have coexisting struggles
and what does that look like?
I know there's a lot of layers there,
(30:37):
so you go in whatever direction,
but we have kids that are grieving or
angry or anxious or struggling in some capacities,
and then sometimes we are in those same situations as well.
And there's just,
there's a lot of
influence and integration
of us as parents with us as children.
What are your thoughts on that?
Oh,
such a good question.
(30:58):
what I think I'd love to share is my
perspective that these are all such valuable opportunities.
I mean,
my
organizing belief system,
the reason why my practice is called growing.
Self is because I believe with all of my heart and soul
(31:20):
that we
evolve as people to become
more mature,
more loving,
stronger,
more compassionate,
more confident,
not
In spite of our struggles,
but actually because of them.
It is when we go through challenging life experiences
(31:44):
that we have the opportunity to develop ourselves,
and that kind of growth doesn't happen otherwise.
And so In
all of these situations,
I think that we as parents have such a powerful opportunity
to model that for our children and say,
age appropriate,
not super scary things,
(32:04):
but for example,
sweetie,
a thing happened.
I was laid off from my job,
and it was surprising.
and I am working on a plan B.
I want you to know that we are going to be OK.
But
here's what you might expect from me from the next few weeks.
I'm going to be around the house a lot more,
(32:26):
and I'm also going to be working really hard.
I see this as an opportunity.
To maybe pivot my career.
There are a lot of things I don't love about that job anyway.
And so
to to just kind of talk through what you're doing for your kid to say,
oh,
that's how it's done.
And with anything,
(32:47):
with anxiety,
depression,
grief,
to say,
I am going through some stuff right now.
I'm going through an internal process.
My mind is playing some tricks on me,
but here is what you'll see me do in response to that.
I am going to be improving my diet.
I'm going to be going on regular walks because exercise is really good for you.
(33:11):
I am going to start
working on this with a therapist.
I'm going to be reading some books.
Oh,
here is this really interesting thing that
I learned about anxiety management techniques,
sharing some of those with your kids.
So we're,
we are demystifying the process of what actually happens when we develop our.
(33:33):
And sharing this with our children so that they learn
how it is done so that they have a roadmap
for not if,
but
when
they experience adversity
in their own lives.
They will have witnessed you as a guide
for how to use this moment as an inspiring challenge
(33:56):
to develop yourself.
Maybe go in a different direction,
expand in some way,
and then they will think,
Oh,
I can do this too,
as opposed to
collapsing into
depression,
substance abuse,
and feeling this helplessness,
hopelessness,
like,
oh,
this is who I am,
I guess,
and developing an identity around illness or misfortune.
(34:20):
That isn't true for any of us,
but they need you to guide the way.
That would be my hope.
My hope too.
And
so I'd like to actually add another layer
because I 100% agree with everything you said,
but here's from the child development side of this where
I think I want to focus a little bit too.
(34:40):
So not only do we provide
a guide,
a roadmap,
an example of what it looks like to
face a challenge,
face a struggle,
look at adversity,
and say,
OK,
I'm resilient,
I'm capable,
I can handle this.
I can problem solve.
All of that is so powerful because we know that our kids are watching,
we know that they're observing,
and we,
(35:01):
we know that they're learning
from every interaction.
I also know
that kids will fill in the gaps
if they don't have enough information.
So what parents will often do with good intentions,
this is not critical,
it's just factual.
Parents will often say,
oh,
I don't want,
I don't want to worry my child.
(35:21):
I'm not going to say anything.
Oh,
they don't need to know that so and so died.
I'm not going to tell them that.
They'll that'll just make them upset.
Oh,
that's just,
that's too much for them.
I just want them to be a kid.
And with good intentions,
what we do is we create an environment
where the child's very perceptive,
very aware,
very observant,
and they're like,
(35:42):
OK,
so in the,
like,
OK,
Mom's crying a lot.
Dad hasn't left for work in 4 days.
there just seems like there's a lot of tension.
I don't,
I,
what in the world is happening right now,
and guess what?
With no answers,
with no information,
they start filling in the gaps,
(36:02):
and when they fill in gaps,
it's with inaccurate information
because they're guessing and they're grasping at straws.
So now all of a sudden we have kids that are trying to
cognitively process something and they don't have the capacity to do so.
So we're forcing them into their brains,
which they don't want to live there anyway,
they want to stay in their hearts where they belong,
but their brains are trying to sort all of this out,
(36:24):
and inevitably
it causes dysfunction.
Because A,
they developmentally shouldn't be trying to figure it out cognitively,
B,
they're assuming things,
they're hypothesizing,
they're making all of these presumptions,
and none of them are true,
and it's leading them down inaccurate paths.
And then as a related aside,
Kids are extremely resilient
(36:46):
and kids can handle anything
if they're prepared.
So the most helpful thing we can do is to prepare them
with age appropriate truth.
Because if we just tell them,
hey,
I'm not going to be leaving for work because I don't actually work there anymore.
I'm going to find a new job soon,
but I just wanted you to know I'm going to be home because
(37:09):
I don't,
I'm not,
I don't have to go to the office anymore.
Now
they're prepared.
There's no shock,
there's nothing unexpected.
There's nothing that's gonna make them go,
whoa,
what is going on here?
Age appropriate truth prevents kids
from ending up in a cognitive spiral where they are overwhelmed
because they can't make sense of things without enough information.
(37:31):
So I think it's a both and.
I think we not only serve as guide rails for them and we demonstrate what it looks like
to be resilient and courageous and all those things,
but it also saves our kids
from unnecessarily being in a place
where they're trying to sort something out that
they have no business trying to sort out.
Yes.
Yeah,
(37:51):
absolutely.
OK,
so as we get ready to wrap up,
thank you so much for everything that you've been sharing.
I would love to know in all of your work with families,
all of your work with parents,
do you have 1, 2, 3?
I don't know what your number is going to be,
but
what are your
just kind of
golden nuggets of wisdom,
(38:11):
your little pearls.
That you think would be really helpful for
the parents who actively listen to this podcast.
They are intentional.
They're purposeful.
They are actively working on their parenting
and their relationship with their kids.
These are committed parents
who really are trying to do the best that they can for their kids.
(38:32):
What are some encouragements or some thoughts or some final takeaways for them that
will just kind of give them something to mull over?
Yeah,
it's so beautiful.
And I love that that spirit and just the,
the love that goes into that,
just this dedication
of
what do I need?
I love this child so much.
(38:53):
So they're here with you all the time,
right,
like,
what do I need to do in order to be the very best parent that I can be
and really just
prizing their child's well-being
over anything else.
And that is so beautiful.
And
I think that
sometimes what I have seen
(39:15):
parents do is separate
their
parenting role and who they are as parents,
from who they are as whole people
to not just the detriment of themselves,
but sometimes,
unfortunately.
downstream to their kids.
So if parents
(39:36):
are giving so much to their kids and
neglecting
their own internal landscape,
their relationship with themselves,
their
health,
their nutrition,
the way that they are caring for themselves physically.
But even their own sense of
joy,
(39:56):
meaning,
purpose outside of their parenting relationship,
their vocation,
their friends,
like there are so many different,
dimensions of life that are important.
And of course,
kids are going to come before any of that.
But,
but our,
our marriages,
our spirituality,
so many things,
(40:16):
and that.
Even though
there's so much on us as parents,
we have to be thinking about all of these dimensions of self,
because
if you start neglecting this and
wrap your whole identity up into this one little corner,
(40:37):
which is that as a parent,
It feels like love.
It feels like putting your kids first,
but it can actually start to do weird things in that relationship because then
you start,
focusing on your kids and your efficacy as a parent,
which can sometimes turn into how your kid is
(40:59):
behaving or not behaving as a reflection on you.
And if that's the only thing that you have going on in your life,
it is going to put Weird pressure on your kids and make you a less effective parent.
So that being a great parent also means being a whole
person,
(41:20):
and that when you are taking care of yourself,
you are also taking care of your child.
Yeah,
gosh,
so powerful.
So,
well,
one of our phrases is you can't give away that which you don't possess.
So how can we be patient with our children if we're not patient with ourselves?
How can we be forgiving of our children if we're not forgiving of ourselves?
(41:42):
How can we extend grace to our kids if we're not gracious to ourselves?
And I think that that's also
Reflected in
where are we finding our identity.
Our identity has to be multifaceted,
right?
I have hobbies,
I have friends,
I have family members,
I have interests.
I,
this fills my cup.
This,
this satisfies me.
(42:03):
This brings me passion.
There's all of these components,
and if it's all unidirectional,
all of a sudden now,
you know,
one single myopic thing is usually never healthy,
right?
So there,
there needs to be breadth and depth and All kinds of things for,
for us to be really well rounded.
And that's so true for us as parents because we tend to
(42:25):
self-sacrifice to our own detriment,
and inevitably it ends up being detrimental to our kids and our relationship
because a kid should never feel the pressure
of being your source of worth.
A kid should never feel the pressure of,
of having to perform so that you feel better.
there's so much nuance there that now all of a sudden,
(42:47):
I don't have a sense of who I am independent of my relationship with this child.
And that's why we constantly say it's about the relationship.
And for the relationship to be healthy,
you have to have two healthy individuals.
Yes,
you cannot have a healthy relationship with an unhealthy person.
And so that means you,
(43:09):
and I just love what you are saying.
About the dynamic that can exist,
and,
and not just say all parents have
beautiful,
important moments of self-sacrifice,
but when your entire life is organized around that,
you're not doing anybody any favors.
Right,
(43:29):
yeah,
wow,
well,
Lisa,
thank you so much.
I mean,
this was,
it was just all kinds of food for thought,
and I love that.
So if my parents and listeners would like to connect with you,
if,
if they can have some interaction with you,
what do they need to do?
I wonder I have a lot of resources
for people who are interested in in developing themselves
(43:51):
and or improving their relationships,
or navigating these difficult relational transitions
related to a breakup or divorce.
So my practice is growing self counseling and coaching,
growingself.com,
and I'm also the host of the Love,
Happiness and Success
Podcast,
which you could go and find.
but if you come to my website,
(44:12):
you'll find that I've actually organized,
different collections for you.
So,
for example,
if you're interested on improving the communication in your relationship,
you can come to my blog and podcast,
and there's a collection just for that with a bunch of articles that
myself and other marriage and family therapists on my team have written,
(44:32):
a podcast playlist with episodes speaking specifically to that.
And similarly for divorce and breakup recovery,
but also that personal growth,
emotional well-being.
So
there's a lot there for you.
And so you can come,
browse around,
take what you need.
I have different free assessments that you could play around with.
(44:54):
And so just depending on your needs.
Because even just talking with you,
Brenna,
I mean,
being a parent
is,
is one thing,
but,
you know,
standing behind that
are adults
who may have different types of needs.
Maybe it is building a stronger,
more satisfying career that allows them to be a more present
(45:15):
parent.
That's a different problem to solve than somebody who's,
you know,
trying to figure out if they want to maintain a marriage or,
or start heading down a path.
So,
so I don't want to define that for you,
but if you come to my website,
you will find free resources speaking to all of those life experiences and,
and hopefully some
direction and guidance for
(45:36):
next steps.
Well,
gosh,
that's what we're always looking for,
right?
We,
we seek information so that we feel that we have direction and guidance to
make the decisions and get us closer to who we want to be.
So
I'm really excited for all of you,
my listeners to be able to check out her website,
and that will be posted in the show notes for you,
so you'll have access to all of that.
(45:57):
Lisa,
thank you so much for being here.
It was wonderful to spend time with you and I know that my
audience is just really going to benefit from everything that you shared.
Brenna,
it's always such a pleasure.
Thank you again.
All right,
all right,
y'all,
it was good to talk to you.
We'll see you again next time.
Bye.
Thank you for listening to
the Play Therapy Parenting Podcast with Dr. Brenna Hicks.
(46:18):
For more episodes and just subscribe to our newsletter,
please go to www.playtherapyparenting.com.
You're listening to the
Play Therapy Parenting Podcast with Dr. Brenna Hicks.
Hi,
I'm Dr. Brenna Hicks,
The Kid Counselor.
This is the Play Therapy Parenting Podcast where I give you insight,
awareness,
and enlightenment about your parenting
and your relationship with your kids.
Today's episode,
we have a special episode.
(00:22):
I typically do not do guests,
but
I have Doctor Lisa Marie Bobby on with me today,
and I'm so excited about this.
She is going to tell you all about herself,
but she is a marriage and family therapist specializing in working with families
and specifically adults,
obviously,
and so I'm so excited to have her insight and perspective,
(00:44):
how we navigate.
Things that happen in our lives as families,
as parents,
how that impacts our kids,
how that influences the things that we need to do,
and just kind of the broad scope of all things related to being a family,
we're going to dive in.
So,
Lisa,
thank you so much for being here.
Can you tell everyone about you a little bit?
(01:05):
Thank you so much,
Brenna.
It's such a pleasure.
yeah,
well,
I mean,
you summed it up so nicely.
I'm a marriage and family therapist.
I'm also a psychologist.
I'm a board certified coach,
which makes me very focused,
I think,
on
outcomes and results.
And yes,
in my practice,
so I founded Growing Self Counseling and Coaching.
And we specialize in growth,
(01:27):
love,
happiness,
and success for adults.
But really with the focus of
how are we as adults developing ourselves
personally in order to feel happy,
fulfilled,
like we're being the best version of ourselves,
going through challenging life transitions,
like breakups or divorces,
with an eye on how does this help us evolve?
(01:48):
And then certainly,
how do we have healthy,
happy,
fulfilling relationships.
With
friends,
families,
partners,
ourselves,
our children,
and then success in whatever way you define that,
but with the idea being,
are you fulfilling your life's purpose,
personally,
professionally,
(02:09):
and what do you need to do to create that for yourself?
So that is what I do,
and I'm so thrilled.
to be here today to talk with you and
your community about this incredibly important aspect of life,
which is,
how do we be the kind of parent
that we want to be?
Because that touches on all of those dimensions.
I mean,
I think I have yet to meet a person
(02:30):
with children
who would say
that
anything is more important
than the happiness and well-being of their kids.
That is like the ultimate definition of success,
right?
And so there's a lot here for us to discuss.
A lot,
yes,
and we'll whittle down for time's sake and just logistics,
(02:52):
but yes,
we're gonna dive into as much as we possibly can,
so.
One of your areas of expertise is
divorce and separation and breakups and
and what that looks like just for the family unit,
for the individuals,
and obviously in our work,
you know,
we're child-centered play therapists
and all of the parenting stuff that I put out is through that child-centered lens.
(03:14):
So
my audience is familiar with the child-centered
approach as well as the parenting stuff,
but
it's interesting because we can't
extract one from the other.
And when we think about the stuff that we go through just in everyday life,
it naturally has a trickle down effect to our children.
And so one of the things we talk about on the podcast all the time
(03:35):
is becoming the best version of ourselves that
we can and being intentional and purposeful and thoughtful
to make changes that we need to make and
think about things we need to think about,
and it's just awareness and it's focused attention.
So I think this is going to be so valuable,
so helpful,
and and and parents really,
my audience specifically,
(03:56):
but I think parents in general,
we're seeing a little bit of a shift,
and I've actually kind of been identifying this recently.
I think there was a stretch where
parents became a little bit disengaged.
I think parents kind of
got into this mentality of,
I just,
you know,
kids can just be kids and do their thing.
And we're seeing a little bit of a shift to more engagement,
(04:17):
more investment,
more attention,
and that is such a beautiful thing for our
society and for our culture and for our country.
Yet at the same time,
I also think that
we have these ideals and sometimes the practical application is what's missing.
So I know that today we're going to get some practical application,
which I'm really looking forward to.
(04:40):
So let's start with the topic of separation
or divorce because I know that statistically,
you know,
that's really high numbers,
and I know that a lot of my audience
is either actively going through a divorce or separation,
or they have in the past.
So
I'd like to spend a little bit of time on that,
then we'll pivot away from that and talk about some more universal things.
But
what do you think in your role as a marriage and
(05:03):
family therapist and a psychologist and you specialize in this,
so this is kind of your
realm.
What
do parents need to understand
about how
a divorce and or a separation
impacts their children?
What,
what effects does that have?
And not necessarily from the clinical side of the children,
but what do parents need to be mindful of
(05:23):
so that parents can actually do something
in
response,
because it's not just,
oh gosh,
there's all of these effects,
but what,
what could do parents need to be aware of
so that there's an antidote for these things.
OK.
Well,
Brenna,
it just so happens I have very strong opinions on this subject,
and
I love strong opinions.
(05:43):
If it's,
if it's OK,
could we even just like back up a little bit further because you asked,
as a marriage and family therapist,
like,
what do parents really need to know?
And I think that before we even get
to having to make hard decisions about a divorce.
For separation,
there is
really important stuff that almost nobody knows that can make a huge difference
(06:10):
in long term outcomes.
For example,
did you know
that most therapists who see couples for couples counseling
have no specialized education or training
in marriage and family therapy?
Like,
very few.
So what happens is that a couple gets into a rough patch,
(06:34):
as literally all couples do.
There's not a relationship in the history of the world
that doesn't have stuff to work through,
right?
But people make the mistake of choosing an unqualified provider.
As
many people do,
or deciding,
well,
we need to go through our health insurance to pay for this,
(06:55):
having no idea
that improving your relationship is not
medically necessary treatment for anything,
so they wind up with a clinical mental health person
who will then diagnose and seek to treat the psychiatric
disorder in one of the partners.
So in either of those situations,
Brenna,
You have a couple with a sincere interest and a very real need
(07:18):
in making positive changes in their relationship,
and then they go to couples counseling.
It quite predictably doesn't work.
And
this poor couple is left with this,
oh,
well,
what does that mean about us?
We went to marriage counseling.
(07:39):
We tried everything,
and
I guess the only choice
is
to separate or divorce when that may not
be
true.
And it makes me absolutely crazy because,
you know,
Kids can be OK in the aftermath of a divorce and and frequently are,
(08:01):
but it is a very difficult life path,
and it's very stressful,
and it's nothing that anybody wants.
And when you consider the alternative,
here's something that is so beautiful and
important for kids is to witness their parents
tackling.
Relational issues head on in an authentic,
(08:24):
loving,
committed way,
and doing the work in order to be better partners for each other,
seeking to improve their communication,
the way they show love and respect.
I mean,
our kids are watching
how we solve.
Problems.
And it's not just like,
oh,
look at how happy my parents are.
(08:44):
We are
silently teaching our children
how to have healthy,
high quality relationships
with their own partners in the future.
So there's a lot at stake here because if all the kids sees as they were fighting a lot.
They try to go to counseling,
maybe it didn't work,
and then we got divorced.
Where is the roadmap
(09:05):
for how to heal and grow a relationship?
And I work with many adults who,
uh,
do not have a fundamental map of the
world in which relationship repair is even possible.
Because they saw their parents get divorced,
perhaps a few times.
And I think that's a really sad thing.
(09:26):
So that would actually be my,
my number one thing,
like,
how do we as adults help our kids with divorce is first of all,
do a really good job
of finding out if that air quote final solution.
It really is,
and maybe it is,
but I've it's also true that there are
some situations that are absolutely not sustainable,
they're not safe,
(09:47):
and it really does need to be done,
and that's OK.
But there's a lot of shades of gray,
and
just because you don't know how to
solve the relationship problems that you're experiencing
doesn't mean that they can't be solved.
And if it would be helpful to you,
I could talk more about
things that people can do
to help.
(10:08):
In that decision making process,
so that if they do decide to pull the plug and get divorced,
they can be quite confident
that that was the right decision,
because that will impact the way that they handle it and the way that they show up
for their kids.
And that's
what this is all about at the end of the day.
(10:28):
And parent's number one fear,
oftentimes is if we did end this,
what would it do to the kids?
Mhm.
Yeah,
so often,
it's a little different than the question that you asked.
No,
but I'm so glad that you responded in that way because
not my wheelhouse at all.
And so I'm actually really grateful to,
to kind of take it a step further back and
(10:50):
I had two thoughts as you were sharing your response.
So the first is you said that there's no
roadmap to healthy relationships if a child doesn't see it
exhibited and demonstrated and they don't
observationally learn what that looks like.
You know,
I think we have this connotation that
the word conflict or
confrontation,
for example,
(11:11):
is inherently a problem.
But
at its root,
the word confrontation or to confront is just to come in front of.
And I think often that what we miss is if we come in front of each other and we say,
hey,
here's my side of this.
I want to hear your side.
Let's figure out what we're going to do about
this once we know where the other person stands.
(11:33):
Confrontation is so important.
It's so valuable,
and it's such a positive thing.
And so I mean I think about that a lot.
We often see parents or we hear of parents that are like,
oh,
you know,
I just,
I don't want my kids to see us fight.
I don't want my kids to hear us fight.
We're not doing them any justice or any service by trying to pretend
that everything is great all the time.
(11:54):
What we're actually teaching them is,
what does it look like to say I'm sorry?
What does it look like to take ownership and responsibility when we make mistakes?
What does it look like to be patient,
even when you don't want to be?
What does it look like to unconditionally love
someone when they're driving you up a wall?
What does it look like to choose to say something kind instead of something angry?
That is what we model for our kids,
(12:16):
and I think that that is so powerful.
Now here let me enlarge this a little bit.
You said there's no roadmap for
For the,
the healthy relationship,
otherwise repair repair.
OK,
so there's also no roadmap for parenting.
And this is one of the things we talk about on this podcast
all the time is we either parent the way we were parented,
(12:39):
or we hate the way we were parented
and we about-face and we say,
well,
I'm going to do something differently,
but in either scenario we're trapped in a limited set of options.
And so I think to kind of bring that back to what you're saying.
It seems as though there's a limited set of options often in parent's perception,
but what you're offering is,
but if you go to someone who's really highly trained and really knowledgeable and
(13:01):
can really help you think through this and talk through this and navigate this,
then regardless of the path that you end up on,
you know that you are confident and satisfied.
With the decisions that were made,
rather than going,
well,
maybe that wasn't what I should have done.
Maybe we didn't for that and
and all of the maybes and the might haves and the what ifs and whatever,
(13:22):
now all of a sudden that's a whole other layer.
Instead,
I know 100% for sure
that this is what needed to be done.
We worked on it and we figured it out,
or we said this is irreparable,
but we at least had advisement and knowledge
and awareness and understanding before we made that decision
and that absolutely would impact
(13:44):
the child's perception of all of that
because there's confidence in the outcome.
And even,
well,
to,
to clarify this a little bit more,
so there is a couple.
counseling or relationship coaching that is for
the purpose of improving a relationship.
And the premise is that two people are coming into that
with the intention of making a relationship better.
(14:06):
That expectation is like a prerequisite of that work,
but
not all couples are in that space.
So there's actually a totally different thing
that even a lot of marriage and family therapists
don't know about or practice,
and that is called discernment counseling or discernment coaching.
And that is not for the purpose of improving a relationship.
(14:29):
The entire thing is helping two people determine.
Is there a basis for working on it?
Do we want to do that?
Is there a commitment there?
If we did,
what would be involved?
Because sometimes when couples
start having problems,
like one person is leaning out,
(14:50):
one person is leaning in.
And so,
if two people aren't on the same page,
if they do try marriage counseling,
it won't work.
So what you're describing with discernment coaching,
the outcome of that is
clarity.
That's what it's for.
So I just wanted to throw that out to your listeners,
because I know that you and I are very much aligned in this belief
(15:14):
that who you work with
matters a lot.
That most people don't know about the
specialized skill sets that different therapists have and that not
Every therapist is the same.
And I think there's a therapy like umbrella term,
and you've been such a strong advocate for like,
no,
child-centered play therapy is this distinct thing.
(15:36):
There are different competencies,
and it's very much like this in the,
the couple's counseling and relational sphere.
But I think not enough people know about this.
So they can't make informed decisions in these crossroads moments,
and that can lead to long term outcomes
and consequences,
quite frankly.
So thank you for giving me just a second to say that out loud.
(15:57):
Yeah,
of course.
I'm so glad that's that's really helpful.
And again,
that's that's what this episode is about.
It's practical knowledge
and.
that you can actually apply so that you
feel confident in what's happening with your family.
So I'm really happy.
And then I just wanted to,
you all know,
my listeners know,
I'm a huge country music fan,
so I just recently stumbled across a song.
(16:19):
It's actually not new,
but I've never heard it before.
Rae Lynn is the artist and the song is called Love Triangle,
and it is absolutely one of the most
breathtakingly incredible songs about a child's perspective
of growing up in a divorced family.
And I've been listening to that for the last week or so,
and she basically,
(16:40):
her and and this is like her autobiographical song basically.
And so at 3 years old,
her parents divorced and she wrote the song from the perspective of
leaving mom to go be with dad for the timeshare with him and
then leaving dad to go be with mom for the timeshare with her,
and the chorus basically says,
and some of us get stuck in a love triangle.
(17:01):
And the premise is that if moms and dads are loving in a straight line,
then everything follows the path.
But then sometimes when things fracture and tatter and tear,
now all of a sudden it's mom and me and dad,
and it becomes a triangle.
Really,
really interesting premise of a song,
but I've been thinking a lot about that in terms
of the work that we do as child-centered play therapists
(17:23):
and in terms of how that affects our parenting and,
and what we need to be mindful of as we're navigating change.
that are going to take place in families.
And so
I wanted to kind of get your thoughts on co-parenting
because I know this is one of your specialties.
So
if you wouldn't mind,
what are,
what are the need to know for if you are in a situation where you are co-parenting?
(17:49):
What are the ways that we do this well?
What are the ways that we do this with purpose and intention?
What are the ways that we effectively manage a co-parenting scenario?
Oh
wow,
what a powerful question,
Branna.
OK.
And so
this one too has a bit of a deeper
layer,
because there are a couple of different things going on here.
(18:12):
On an internal,
individual
level,
when you as a parent,
are going through this type of transition,
Going through a separation,
going through a divorce,
you are going to have a lot of things happening inside of you,
big emotions,
confusing feelings,
(18:34):
lots of dark emotions,
and there is a ton.
Of very valuable work for you to do during this period,
so that you are effectively moving through all the different stages of this
and ideally
engaging in a very deep growth process
that allows you to come out the other side of this
(18:57):
stronger,
more clear,
more
Connected with your values and better able to create
the life that you want individually,
the relationships that you want in the future,
and of course,
to be the kind of parent
that you want to be.
And so this is a process.
So that
is actually,
(19:17):
if your goal is to be an effective co-parent,
Step
one
is to begin doing that
work
because when you do that,
you will work through all the feelings.
You will come to a place of calm and clarity.
Many people,
and this is going to sound
(19:37):
bananas,
but I'm gonna say it out loud.
I've talked to so many people about this.
They will say,
That
was a crappy experience.
I wish that hadn't happened,
did not enjoy that,
and
looking back,
There's this weird part of me that is so glad it did
because it changed so many things for me.
(19:59):
I would not be the person that I am today
had I not had the opportunity to do that really important work.
So when you're going through it,
it's like impossible to believe.
So just trust me on this.
Brenna,
you're great.
You're like,
this is a thing.
It,
I know that.
But so the way that this relates to a co-parenting relationship is that.
(20:22):
On a different level.
So remember on the base level,
you're doing your own stuff,
but on this top level
you also must
Be committed
to acting
from your values
and conducting yourself in a positive way that is
going to create positive outcomes for your kids,
(20:46):
no matter how you feel
while you are going through the process.
You go through it well,
you're gonna Come out the other side and it's gonna
feel easy,
but in the meantime,
you're gonna need to do some internal work on how do I manage myself in such a way
that I am not making anything worse and that I
am keeping my own side of the street clean,
(21:07):
no matter how I feel.
And that can be challenging to do.
But if you want to have a positive
co-parenting relationship,
you need to stop being so focused
on what your ex and now co-parent is doing
or not doing and start really focusing on
what are you doing
to regulate yourself,
(21:28):
to say the right thing,
even if you want to say something hostile,
right?
are you being consistent?
Are you being respectful?
Are you being supportive?
Are you being an effective negotiator
that is not
confusing everything with all of the big feelings that,
(21:48):
of course,
are coming up.
So it requires a lot of compartmentalization.
In order to be able to do that,
but that begins with you getting a lot of clarity around who you want to be
through this and allowing that ideal
to then guide your actions,
and your feelings
(22:08):
are,
sorry to say this,
irrelevant.
Unless,
of course,
we want to index your feelings of love for your child,
that
will help you be the person that you need to be.
Or your feeling of
courage to do what needs to be done even when you to,
or your feeling of discernment
(22:29):
that this is not something that I should say or do right now,
or your feeling of commitment where you say,
no matter what,
this is how I want to be.
So yes,
OK,
so let's unpack this a little bit.
So
I,
I often say,
and I actually shared this in the the clinical podcast too,
you know,
one of our
North Star
(22:50):
mantras.
What do I want my child at 25
when they are out of college,
they have their job,
they might be married at that point,
whatever,
they're around their adult peers,
and someone says,
what was your mom like?
What what do you remember about your dad?
What,
what stands out for you about the way that you were raised,
you know,
what,
what,
(23:10):
what did your parents do or not do?
What,
what do you remember?
That should influence every moment.
So similarly,
whatever we're going through right now,
it's a choice,
and quote,
your feelings don't matter,
meaning
you choose
something because it helps you become a better version of yourself,
(23:30):
not because you feel like doing something else.
Look,
any hard thing.
We have to override feelings because our feelings are like,
oh,
don't do that,
that's gonna be awful.
Oh,
don't do that.
That's gonna be so exhausting.
Oh gosh,
that's gonna be,
we,
we,
we can talk ourselves out of lots of things
because our feelings say we don't want to do it.
We'll avoid,
we'll distract,
(23:51):
we'll do all kinds of things.
That's all maladaptive coping to avoid doing something that's not gonna feel good,
but
doing hard things requires hard work.
So raising a child,
being an effective parent,
becoming the best version of ourselves that we can be.
We talk about self-actualizing all the time,
right?
Becoming the best version of yourself.
(24:13):
There is no way for us to do that unless we say
in this moment,
I choose.
To do
what's going to get me more closely aligned
with who I want to be.
And one of the things we've been talking about also lately is congruence.
So when our ideal self and our actual self is so far apart.
(24:33):
There's no way to bridge the gap anymore,
and
we have all kinds of dysfunction.
The closer our actual self becomes to the ideal,
the more we feel inspired and encouraged to keep self-actualizing.
So think about this,
we always have an opportunity in any moment when we're parenting.
To
(24:54):
do something that's self-enhancing,
to do something that's closely aligned with our ideal,
to do something that's going to
preserve the relationship with our child.
To do something that shows courage and
thought and intention rather than reactivity.
There's all of these moments that we have.
We have these choices that we make,
and every choice that we make one at a time.
(25:16):
We're not talking big picture here,
big steps,
climbing the mountain,
we're saying this moment.
I have a choice
and I choose to do the thing that's going to get me closer to who I want to be
and what I want to preserve in my relationship with my child.
You do it once,
it's easier to do it the second time.
You do it 2 times,
it's easier to do it the third time.
(25:36):
And then before you know it,
your ideal and your actual are actually pretty closely aligned,
which means you're very congruent.
And now all of a sudden you are the parent and you
are the person that you've been working so hard to become.
There's so much beauty in that simple act of choosing right now.
What do I need to do in this moment?
(25:59):
Oh,
Brenna,
that's beautiful,
and,
and some would say
that that choice is the very definition
of love.
Yes,
love is a verb,
right?
So,
so we choose,
and it's action.
That's very much true.
And,
and
to just underscore
(26:20):
the importance of what you're saying
is that
what you're
advocating,
Brenna,
is to get super clear around what those actions are,
like,
what,
what is,
what am I actually doing when I'm being in in alignment with my ideal self?
Because
if you're not super clear and like have a written list of things to do.
(26:45):
Particularly when you are going through a,
a breakup or a divorce,
you have such an emotional
hurricane
going on inside of you
that you actually cannot trust
the way that you think or the way that you feel for a period of time.
(27:07):
And so to have that clarity around,
this is what I need to do right now.
Because of the
biological things that are actually happening inside of you in these moments,
that's gonna be a lifeline,
cause if you don't have that clarity and you start acting on how
you think or how you feel in the moment during this very unique
(27:28):
Transition,
you're gonna make things worse,
not just for yourself or your co-parenting relationship,
but long term
for your kid.
Exactly,
and there's,
you know,
one of the things we talk about a lot is
the concept that
we
have
(27:48):
moments all throughout the day
where we can ask ourselves
what will most preserve the relationship in this moment
and or what will do the least harm.
Right.
So with those two as your litmus test,
if you will.
If I'm about to yell,
if I'm about to be hostile,
if I'm about to be
(28:08):
rude,
if I'm about to
say something hurtful,
whatever,
and this is to children,
to spouses,
to co-parents,
whatever,
it doesn't matter the scenario.
Those are moment by moment.
Opportunities to say what do I need to do right now
to most preserve the relationship,
do the least harm.
Sometimes that's
(28:29):
do the least harm for ourselves too.
It's preserve the relationship with ourselves because
when our ideal versus actual selves as parents
get further and further apart,
we start to blame ourselves and we start to feel guilty
and we start to have shame and we start to regret things and now all of a sudden that's
a whole other level of spiral to add on top of the other spirals that are going on.
(28:50):
And so really meaningful opportunities
to pause and say,
OK,
I'm going to be intentional in this moment and I'm going to choose
to say and do the things that are most closely aligned with who I want to be,
and that's a very,
very meaningful
opportunity
to become the better version of yourself in those little glimpses.
(29:14):
OK,
so
let's take this in a little bit of a different direction.
So we've been talking about divorce,
separation,
co-parenting.
What are your thoughts,
and I'm sure there's so much crossover and and overlap here.
So,
What are your thoughts on
the ways in which
our difficulties may be unrelated to
(29:34):
marital relationships?
So what if we lost our job?
What if we
are grieving the loss of a family member?
What if we are
in an anxious place in our lives,
we're just overwhelmed with anxiety,
if we are struggling
and we are a parent?
What does that look like?
(29:54):
What are the things that we need to be mindful of,
the influence on our kids,
the ways that we most effectively handle that,
because it's not always about,
you know,
we're we're losing a relationship per se.
We have our own stuff that we deal with and,
and really kind of where I'd like to focus a little bit is
we often think about putting ourselves aside
(30:16):
so that we can
do what's right by our children.
But we give out of the overflow,
and we have to be mindful that when we are struggling,
there's a ripple,
but often our kids are struggling too.
So how,
how do we have coexisting struggles
and what does that look like?
I know there's a lot of layers there,
(30:37):
so you go in whatever direction,
but we have kids that are grieving or
angry or anxious or struggling in some capacities,
and then sometimes we are in those same situations as well.
And there's just,
there's a lot of
influence and integration
of us as parents with us as children.
What are your thoughts on that?
Oh,
such a good question.
(30:58):
what I think I'd love to share is my
perspective that these are all such valuable opportunities.
I mean,
my
organizing belief system,
the reason why my practice is called growing.
Self is because I believe with all of my heart and soul
(31:20):
that we
evolve as people to become
more mature,
more loving,
stronger,
more compassionate,
more confident,
not
In spite of our struggles,
but actually because of them.
It is when we go through challenging life experiences
(31:44):
that we have the opportunity to develop ourselves,
and that kind of growth doesn't happen otherwise.
And so In
all of these situations,
I think that we as parents have such a powerful opportunity
to model that for our children and say,
age appropriate,
not super scary things,
(32:04):
but for example,
sweetie,
a thing happened.
I was laid off from my job,
and it was surprising.
and I am working on a plan B.
I want you to know that we are going to be OK.
But
here's what you might expect from me from the next few weeks.
I'm going to be around the house a lot more,
(32:26):
and I'm also going to be working really hard.
I see this as an opportunity.
To maybe pivot my career.
There are a lot of things I don't love about that job anyway.
And so
to to just kind of talk through what you're doing for your kid to say,
oh,
that's how it's done.
And with anything,
(32:47):
with anxiety,
depression,
grief,
to say,
I am going through some stuff right now.
I'm going through an internal process.
My mind is playing some tricks on me,
but here is what you'll see me do in response to that.
I am going to be improving my diet.
I'm going to be going on regular walks because exercise is really good for you.
(33:11):
I am going to start
working on this with a therapist.
I'm going to be reading some books.
Oh,
here is this really interesting thing that
I learned about anxiety management techniques,
sharing some of those with your kids.
So we're,
we are demystifying the process of what actually happens when we develop our.
(33:33):
And sharing this with our children so that they learn
how it is done so that they have a roadmap
for not if,
but
when
they experience adversity
in their own lives.
They will have witnessed you as a guide
for how to use this moment as an inspiring challenge
(33:56):
to develop yourself.
Maybe go in a different direction,
expand in some way,
and then they will think,
Oh,
I can do this too,
as opposed to
collapsing into
depression,
substance abuse,
and feeling this helplessness,
hopelessness,
like,
oh,
this is who I am,
I guess,
and developing an identity around illness or misfortune.
(34:20):
That isn't true for any of us,
but they need you to guide the way.
That would be my hope.
My hope too.
And
so I'd like to actually add another layer
because I 100% agree with everything you said,
but here's from the child development side of this where
I think I want to focus a little bit too.
(34:40):
So not only do we provide
a guide,
a roadmap,
an example of what it looks like to
face a challenge,
face a struggle,
look at adversity,
and say,
OK,
I'm resilient,
I'm capable,
I can handle this.
I can problem solve.
All of that is so powerful because we know that our kids are watching,
we know that they're observing,
and we,
(35:01):
we know that they're learning
from every interaction.
I also know
that kids will fill in the gaps
if they don't have enough information.
So what parents will often do with good intentions,
this is not critical,
it's just factual.
Parents will often say,
oh,
I don't want,
I don't want to worry my child.
(35:21):
I'm not going to say anything.
Oh,
they don't need to know that so and so died.
I'm not going to tell them that.
They'll that'll just make them upset.
Oh,
that's just,
that's too much for them.
I just want them to be a kid.
And with good intentions,
what we do is we create an environment
where the child's very perceptive,
very aware,
very observant,
and they're like,
(35:42):
OK,
so in the,
like,
OK,
Mom's crying a lot.
Dad hasn't left for work in 4 days.
there just seems like there's a lot of tension.
I don't,
I,
what in the world is happening right now,
and guess what?
With no answers,
with no information,
they start filling in the gaps,
(36:02):
and when they fill in gaps,
it's with inaccurate information
because they're guessing and they're grasping at straws.
So now all of a sudden we have kids that are trying to
cognitively process something and they don't have the capacity to do so.
So we're forcing them into their brains,
which they don't want to live there anyway,
they want to stay in their hearts where they belong,
but their brains are trying to sort all of this out,
(36:24):
and inevitably
it causes dysfunction.
Because A,
they developmentally shouldn't be trying to figure it out cognitively,
B,
they're assuming things,
they're hypothesizing,
they're making all of these presumptions,
and none of them are true,
and it's leading them down inaccurate paths.
And then as a related aside,
Kids are extremely resilient
(36:46):
and kids can handle anything
if they're prepared.
So the most helpful thing we can do is to prepare them
with age appropriate truth.
Because if we just tell them,
hey,
I'm not going to be leaving for work because I don't actually work there anymore.
I'm going to find a new job soon,
but I just wanted you to know I'm going to be home because
(37:09):
I don't,
I'm not,
I don't have to go to the office anymore.
Now
they're prepared.
There's no shock,
there's nothing unexpected.
There's nothing that's gonna make them go,
whoa,
what is going on here?
Age appropriate truth prevents kids
from ending up in a cognitive spiral where they are overwhelmed
because they can't make sense of things without enough information.
(37:31):
So I think it's a both and.
I think we not only serve as guide rails for them and we demonstrate what it looks like
to be resilient and courageous and all those things,
but it also saves our kids
from unnecessarily being in a place
where they're trying to sort something out that
they have no business trying to sort out.
Yes.
Yeah,
(37:51):
absolutely.
OK,
so as we get ready to wrap up,
thank you so much for everything that you've been sharing.
I would love to know in all of your work with families,
all of your work with parents,
do you have 1, 2, 3?
I don't know what your number is going to be,
but
what are your
just kind of
golden nuggets of wisdom,
(38:11):
your little pearls.
That you think would be really helpful for
the parents who actively listen to this podcast.
They are intentional.
They're purposeful.
They are actively working on their parenting
and their relationship with their kids.
These are committed parents
who really are trying to do the best that they can for their kids.
(38:32):
What are some encouragements or some thoughts or some final takeaways for them that
will just kind of give them something to mull over?
Yeah,
it's so beautiful.
And I love that that spirit and just the,
the love that goes into that,
just this dedication
of
what do I need?
I love this child so much.
(38:53):
So they're here with you all the time,
right,
like,
what do I need to do in order to be the very best parent that I can be
and really just
prizing their child's well-being
over anything else.
And that is so beautiful.
And
I think that
sometimes what I have seen
(39:15):
parents do is separate
their
parenting role and who they are as parents,
from who they are as whole people
to not just the detriment of themselves,
but sometimes,
unfortunately.
downstream to their kids.
So if parents
(39:36):
are giving so much to their kids and
neglecting
their own internal landscape,
their relationship with themselves,
their
health,
their nutrition,
the way that they are caring for themselves physically.
But even their own sense of
joy,
(39:56):
meaning,
purpose outside of their parenting relationship,
their vocation,
their friends,
like there are so many different,
dimensions of life that are important.
And of course,
kids are going to come before any of that.
But,
but our,
our marriages,
our spirituality,
so many things,
(40:16):
and that.
Even though
there's so much on us as parents,
we have to be thinking about all of these dimensions of self,
because
if you start neglecting this and
wrap your whole identity up into this one little corner,
(40:37):
which is that as a parent,
It feels like love.
It feels like putting your kids first,
but it can actually start to do weird things in that relationship because then
you start,
focusing on your kids and your efficacy as a parent,
which can sometimes turn into how your kid is
(40:59):
behaving or not behaving as a reflection on you.
And if that's the only thing that you have going on in your life,
it is going to put Weird pressure on your kids and make you a less effective parent.
So that being a great parent also means being a whole
person,
(41:20):
and that when you are taking care of yourself,
you are also taking care of your child.
Yeah,
gosh,
so powerful.
So,
well,
one of our phrases is you can't give away that which you don't possess.
So how can we be patient with our children if we're not patient with ourselves?
How can we be forgiving of our children if we're not forgiving of ourselves?
(41:42):
How can we extend grace to our kids if we're not gracious to ourselves?
And I think that that's also
Reflected in
where are we finding our identity.
Our identity has to be multifaceted,
right?
I have hobbies,
I have friends,
I have family members,
I have interests.
I,
this fills my cup.
This,
this satisfies me.
(42:03):
This brings me passion.
There's all of these components,
and if it's all unidirectional,
all of a sudden now,
you know,
one single myopic thing is usually never healthy,
right?
So there,
there needs to be breadth and depth and All kinds of things for,
for us to be really well rounded.
And that's so true for us as parents because we tend to
(42:25):
self-sacrifice to our own detriment,
and inevitably it ends up being detrimental to our kids and our relationship
because a kid should never feel the pressure
of being your source of worth.
A kid should never feel the pressure of,
of having to perform so that you feel better.
there's so much nuance there that now all of a sudden,
(42:47):
I don't have a sense of who I am independent of my relationship with this child.
And that's why we constantly say it's about the relationship.
And for the relationship to be healthy,
you have to have two healthy individuals.
Yes,
you cannot have a healthy relationship with an unhealthy person.
And so that means you,
(43:09):
and I just love what you are saying.
About the dynamic that can exist,
and,
and not just say all parents have
beautiful,
important moments of self-sacrifice,
but when your entire life is organized around that,
you're not doing anybody any favors.
Right,
(43:29):
yeah,
wow,
well,
Lisa,
thank you so much.
I mean,
this was,
it was just all kinds of food for thought,
and I love that.
So if my parents and listeners would like to connect with you,
if,
if they can have some interaction with you,
what do they need to do?
I wonder I have a lot of resources
for people who are interested in in developing themselves
(43:51):
and or improving their relationships,
or navigating these difficult relational transitions
related to a breakup or divorce.
So my practice is growing self counseling and coaching,
growingself.com,
and I'm also the host of the Love,
Happiness and Success
Podcast,
which you could go and find.
but if you come to my website,
(44:12):
you'll find that I've actually organized,
different collections for you.
So,
for example,
if you're interested on improving the communication in your relationship,
you can come to my blog and podcast,
and there's a collection just for that with a bunch of articles that
myself and other marriage and family therapists on my team have written,
(44:32):
a podcast playlist with episodes speaking specifically to that.
And similarly for divorce and breakup recovery,
but also that personal growth,
emotional well-being.
So
there's a lot there for you.
And so you can come,
browse around,
take what you need.
I have different free assessments that you could play around with.
(44:54):
And so just depending on your needs.
Because even just talking with you,
Brenna,
I mean,
being a parent
is,
is one thing,
but,
you know,
standing behind that
are adults
who may have different types of needs.
Maybe it is building a stronger,
more satisfying career that allows them to be a more present
(45:15):
parent.
That's a different problem to solve than somebody who's,
you know,
trying to figure out if they want to maintain a marriage or,
or start heading down a path.
So,
so I don't want to define that for you,
but if you come to my website,
you will find free resources speaking to all of those life experiences and,
and hopefully some
direction and guidance for
(45:36):
next steps.
Well,
gosh,
that's what we're always looking for,
right?
We,
we seek information so that we feel that we have direction and guidance to
make the decisions and get us closer to who we want to be.
So
I'm really excited for all of you,
my listeners to be able to check out her website,
and that will be posted in the show notes for you,
so you'll have access to all of that.
(45:57):
Lisa,
thank you so much for being here.
It was wonderful to spend time with you and I know that my
audience is just really going to benefit from everything that you shared.
Brenna,
it's always such a pleasure.
Thank you again.
All right,
all right,
y'all,
it was good to talk to you.
We'll see you again next time.
Bye.
Thank you for listening to
the Play Therapy Parenting Podcast with Dr. Brenna Hicks.
(46:18):
For more episodes and just subscribe to our newsletter,
please go to www.playtherapyparenting.com.
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