Howard S. - God Speaks Through People - Podcast Recovery

Episode Transcript
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(00:03):
Welcome back to Podcast Recovery, everyone.
We're your host, David O. Carly yes, and Eric B GM I
fucked that up. Sorry.
I peaked. I got I was two hypes, man.
I was really excited about it, you know?
And today we are joined with ourvery special guest, Howard.
How you doing man? Doing well, how you doing?
Not as good as you coming back from Cancun, dude.
Yeah. Thank.

(00:25):
You. Yeah, You had a very big smile
on your face today. Very.
Relaxing. That's just, that's just Howard
in general, pretty like he couldbe coming back from a Blizzard
and he's still going to be smiling.
Oh, it was refreshing, Yeah. I think blizzards are
refreshing, you know? It's a nice hit of cold air to
the face, you know? When were you for?
Where are you from? I'm actually I was born in
Baltimore, MD. OK, right, right.

(00:46):
Yeah, I was born in Baltimore. I lived in Pikesville.
Yeah, born and raised and then travelled here and there.
And I'm actually currently living right now in Hampstead,
MD Nice. Yes, Yes.
And when were you first introduced to recovery?
Oh actually I was 16 years old. A friend of mine got busted by
his parents and they had a relative that went to a 12 step

(01:09):
fellowship. And he actually, I when I went
to go see him as someone that I used to go with ever since I've
been five years, not used since five years old.
My friends was since I was five years old.
And that's where he introduced me.
But I wasn't ready. He was just showing me his life.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I was like, you know, that's
good for him. Yeah.
You know, And I was just like, all right, I guess.
What should I tell the whole story or what do you want me to

(01:31):
do or? Just for the introduction.
Yeah, I mean, that's how I was introduced to it, but I wasn't
ready yet. But I came ready a few years
later. That was good for him, but I
wasn't ready because I compared myself out.
But it was like my very first meeting, per SE.
It was very small. That's where they had all the
readings of one piece of paper and they would pass it around
the room. Whoa.

(01:52):
Yeah. Not like now where everything's
separated out and my, and it wasactually, it was, it was kind of
interesting, but he was so funny.
He was like, now listen, we hug here.
It's not we're weird or anything.
I'm like, all right, I'm cool with that.
I mean, we were 16 at the time, so.
And, but I, I remember that it was, I just found it very
interesting. But I my first impression was

(02:14):
pretty. It was pretty cool.
But I was like, that's good for him.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So that's where it was.
And so how much clean time when?Yeah, what's your clean day?
My clean day is February 23rd, 1987.
Which is unbelievable. I think that's the most.
I think you're you're the winnerso far.
I think you have the most. Clean time.
I've not. I feel like we've had an A, a or

(02:35):
here that was like 79 or something.
I, I think I remember studying that in the past in your, in
your previous podcast some yearsago.
I think we had one person from the 70s.
You're up there. You're definitely.
Top five, You're you're definitely in the top, Yeah.
For the 30, like, I mean, 'causethis is like, how many years is
that? That's 37, yeah.
I know because I was born in 87.Yeah.

(02:56):
Oh yeah, David's. Yeah, you.
You can really relate. I know.
Like 'cause. And I was 19 at the time when I
came in. Nice.
That's what that was one of my questions I was gonna ask.
So 19 OK. Yeah, so.
With all that out of the way, turn it over to you.
Share your story with us. Take it away.
Yeah, sure. Thanks.
So you know, my story started back.
Oh God, I was like, I'm going tosay five years old.

(03:16):
And the reason why I say five years old so. 56 you were.
Born in 1968, Nineteen 68. Yeah.
Oh. Goodyear Math not great of.
Math, it's OK. I kind of know it.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So.
So it was like I was five years old.
And in my family, they believe in saving face and, you know,
and they don't want to be talkedabout, you know, and that's the

(03:38):
way it was, you know, And in my SO where I grew up, it came to
family neighborhood. You don't want to be talked
about. So it was OK for the children to
be drinking. Oh yo, yeah, it's OK to at the
local, the gatherings have a siphere, a sip there in my family.
Yeah, 70s. Yeah, that's right.
It wasn't, you know, it's like. It's a little bit of wine.

(03:58):
Oh yeah, a little bit of wine ora little bit of beer or shots of
whiskey at the at because they had like a lot of math tables at
religious events. Whatever, You just grab a shot,
it's done. And like the kids, you know, we
were like, hey, let's do becausethe adults are doing.
Let's get one more. They just had shots of whiskey
sitting around. Yes.
That's the way that's times weredifferent.
Yes, very much so. Very much so.

(04:20):
No, I mean, that's that's the way it was there actually that
was more like at at religious events.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so, but that's the way it
was. And it was always going for that
one more, going for that one more.
And, you know, for me to have beer in one of my drawers to
self having, I don't know, underwear, you know, that was
normal, you know, and but the rule was you don't leave the

(04:43):
house and you're like, all right, I'll invite friends over.
And that's what I did. So it was like alcohol was my
very first drug. So drinking on the weekends,
whatever it, it was just, it wasout of control.
But I was at the point where I'mat, it's at night, I'm up and
I'm sneaking a little bit here and there.
No one knows, you know, my grandmother made like this

(05:05):
homemade wine out of Brandy. I would like to do drinks out of
there or all this. Stuff that sounds either good or
terrible. It was, yes.
Homemade wine out of Brandy. Yes, it was.
She'd had her own mix. I can't even describe it, but it
was OK. It was great.
I mean, that's what I that. Sounds like some alchemy.
Pretty much, yeah, pretty much. Keep it and turn.
This into gold. But it was just, it was just a

(05:30):
lot of drinking growing up. It really was.
And that was considered normal. You know, you were talked about
if your children were not drinking.
That's how it was really. Oh, yeah.
That's the way things. That's the way it was where I
lived in the world that I lived in, in my neighborhood.
I mean, because there was just like, your child isn't having a
sip of this, It's OK. And that's the way it was
brought. That's the way I heard that all

(05:51):
the time. All the time.
Well, brand is like a port wine,right?
Like or kind of like relate it to port wine.
So it'd almost be considered like a dessert.
Would that be the way like the thinking?
No, it was. No, no.
It was kind of alcohol logic this, you know.
You know, something I'm gonna say, I'm gonna, I'm gonna say
it's just the where we grew up, combination of that and also

(06:11):
that, just the religion and everything like that.
So it was just, it was just. And that's the way they were
brought up. Yes.
And for them, that's normal. So they were just passing it on.
Yeah. I just like that your
grandmother had essentially the alcohol equivalent, like taking
like, you know when you take coke and make it into crack and
like vice versa. She was like I got this right
but online. It was Mixology 102.
Yeah. Why did you take it there?

(06:33):
Why didn't you take it there at all?
All right. Continue.
That's OK. So so as time went on, I was
introduced to pot. So I was 16 years old.
My friend, a friend of mine goeshey man, you'll get high.
I'm like yeah, sure. So it was like five of us in the
car and they go, Howard, you drive because you don't get
because people usually don't gethigh the first time.
Well, I found out. For me, that was a lie.

(06:55):
You knew how you failed. We've talked about this.
Yeah, actually, no. And I've heard your previous
podcast, and yes, I did smoke cigarettes.
All smoke. Cigarettes.
OK. Have you ever hear in that?
Yeah, but yeah, so it was like a2 1/2 foot Tokemaster and I'm in
the driver's seat and I'm like, all right, make.
Sure you're smoking a bong the 1st.
Time. Oh, yeah.
OK. Yeah.

(07:15):
Yeah, you're definitely going toinhale that.
Wait. Where did you get a bong?
From them OK, the friends I was hanging around, I had nothing.
They were like hey, yeah, come on.
So it was like 5 was in the car.So I'm driving.
So we're smoke, we're on some kind of a ban on the road and
we're just smoking up. We're just having a good time.
So we decided to get some munchies, of course.
And we're I'm driving on this road and the road that slightly

(07:35):
curves to the right, I keep going straight Next, you know,
my car is literally right over the double lines.
Everyone is freaking out, pull over, pull over.
And I'm just laughing, thinking it's the funniest thing in the
world. I cannot stop.
And I pulled over and somebody who was, I would say the least,
high, which still wasn't that good was driving.

(07:56):
But I remember that feeling, like feeling nothing, you know?
And I was like, yeah, this is what I've been looking for.
And that took me on the road. So for me it was just getting
high, constantly skipping school, barely making good
grades, looking for the next party, you know, I, you know,

(08:17):
and I was just always looking for the next high.
And I was trying to hang out with people who were using, but
I didn't call it using then no, people get high, people want to
party, blah, blah, blah. And.
Let's go have fun. Yeah, and that's what I thought
into, you know. Because by this point, it's
what, the late 70s, early 80s? It's this is like this is like
mid, early, mid 80s at this point.
I would say I was, I was 84. So I was 16.

(08:39):
It's 1984 and my my addiction just progressed tremendously.
Like it was like I was waiting for this because at the same
time my life at home was like itwas.
It was different. I grew up in a household where
children were seen and not heardand Herbie yells the loudest
wins. Also I came from a verbally
abusive household, also a physically abusive household.

(09:02):
So for me to escape, this was what I was waiting for.
Yeah. And also, I was at the age where
throughout time, I was unsure myself, very insecure, didn't
know what I wanna do. I was doing things like sports
here and there. But it didn't.
It was more like wreck. It wasn't more like high school.
Serious. Yeah, nothing serious, but and I
was really into, I was very addicted to Saturday morning

(09:24):
cartoons. Yeah, did that every Saturday
morning. What was your?
What was your Saturday morning cartoons?
Yeah, 'cause you're in the 80s, you're like prime time.
Super friends. OK, yeah, super friends.
Super friends were always great,but also I loved anything by
Hannah Barbera. Oh yeah, which was also amazing.
But it bottom line is it took meout of myself, Yeah, you know,
and it, it was great, you know, and my parents also, they got

(09:45):
divorced when I was like 6 yearsold.
Oh really? So there was a lot of that too,
back and forth, a lot of fighting, a lot of yelling, even
when they were divorced. So for another.
So when when I was introduced towhatever, whatever, alcohol,
whatever, I would escape. Yeah.
And it was a lot. And yes, I had lots of lots of
presents during the holiday season and my birthday and stuff

(10:06):
like that. But it, I mean, my dad would
take us on the weekends and Wednesday night evening dinners
and. But there was always fight on
the weekends and my dad couldn'ttake us.
My mom be like, well, I don't want to take them out.
We didn't feel, my sister and I did not feel like, yeah, like,
like, really. Sometimes we know.
And so the grandparents will take us.
But it happens sometimes, you know, in a divorced.
Parents would just sort of like toss you back and forth.

(10:28):
Well, like on the weekends, my dad couldn't take us one
weekend. My mom was like, well, I already
have plans this weekend, so thatweekend would be with one of our
grandparents. And it's OK.
I mean, listen, it is what it is.
Yeah. You know, it's divorce time.
Like, it was just. I mean, in my neighborhood,
divorce was not, it was rare. It was very rare.
And so it was a lot to deal with.

(10:51):
But I, I just went down the roadof Houston, you know, and that's
what took me away. And then, and then finally, what
happened was during when I hit college, when I hit college, by
then I was just popping. Actually, I was popping pills
back in high school too. I worked at a drugstore.
Oh, fun. Oh yeah, so I worked at a

(11:12):
drugstore behind the counter andI got a lot of knowledge.
Did you sell? Were you like an alcohol
pharmacy or just a pharmacy? Because I remember there used to
be alcohol pharmacies and I thought they were the coolest.
Actually, no. Back then when I did it in 16,
there were no alcohol pharmacies.
What is an alcohol pharmacy? A place that sells liquor.
Sells alcohol, yeah. No, they.
They got rid of those, like liquor stores?

(11:34):
Yeah, liquor. Stores liquor store with the
pharmacy right? But no, I I worked at I worked
at this one. That is a terrible combination.
It was great. That's like that's like the brew
throughs in the South, like, youknow, let's let's combine the
drive through. Do you?
Know that you know David. You know the Tasty Zone, The
liquor store right next to the Tasty Zone that used to be.

(11:55):
Oakdale. Yeah, Oakdale to be a pharmacy.
Yeah, the pharmacy slash liquor store and like like I remember
my exes mom would go in there and be like, yeah, it's the best
place. I get my pills and I get my my
vodka and like blah blah blah. That's terrible, Terrible my.
Gosh, she was very upset when the pharmacy went away.
So people in the 70s and 80s arejust mixing diet pills and and

(12:16):
cheap vodka. Pretty much.
Terrible. Pretty much yes, but were.
They diet pills. Is that what you were taking?
No, no, no, I my my I worked at the actual pharmacy.
Probably a quaaludes back then, yeah.
You were taking. Quaaludes.
No, I was talking. Holy shit.
Wait, did I? I don't know, I.
Took a lot. I took whatever people gave me.
Actually, I was one of those, yeah, like, sure, here, take
this. I'm like, all right, sure, Yeah.

(12:36):
But in the pharmacy, what I would do is I would like take a
like, people come back, get their prescriptions, and I would
see after a while, like people weren't picking up their
prescriptions after a week or two.
So then I would go to the pharmacist, Hey, what does this
do? What does this do?
So I would look for things I would say like, you know, call
us drowsiness. And if I found something and if
I found something that says do not have, do not operate heavy

(12:58):
machinery, I'm like, I scored. And that's what I did.
I used to steal from there all the time and take whatever.
And also, you know, when I go topeople's homes, I check out
their, you know. Yeah, Yeah.
But I used to pop pills all the time.
Yeah. So.
And that's was when I was still in high school.
Yeah. So then when I hit college, I
was into hallucinogenics. I never.
Where did you go to college? Actually, Western Maryland

(13:21):
College, now called McDaniel. McDaniel.
Yeah. Yeah.
And I went there. Yeah.
I just. I went there.
It was cool. A friend of mine was going
there. Did you live in Westminster?
No, I lived in Pikesville. OK, so he didn't.
Make the move out but. I know, but like they have like
a college town. OK, OK.
No campus. I did live on campus.
I did do that. And but when I hit college and

(13:41):
total freedom, I was just, I wasoff to the races.
Yeah. And I went and I went very fast.
The guy, my roommate I used with, and he had, he was, he
knew a lot of people. I used with them.
Next, you know, I'm dealing up there.
Yeah, I'm dealing to the fraternities.
Here's a freshman. There was a word around town,
you know where to get drugs. And I have people knocking on my
door 2:00 AM, three in the morning.
For weed too, I mean. It was crazy or you know, yeah,

(14:05):
but I did sell weed up there. Everything else I kept.
Of course, selling did not. I was not good at it because I
would say I'll just sell enough and then I'll keep the profits
I'll make. I'll just, you know, drink
whatever, use whatever. But then next you know, I'm
dipping into what I'm supposed to be selling.
And did you ever? Try to sell, Eric.
Did you ever try to? Sell.
I failed. Yeah, I I went straight into the

(14:28):
pile. I was like, I can just totally
go right into this. I was good at maintaining just
like a perfectly like I'd never gotten to the black, but I'd
never gotten to the red either. So I was just a like I was not.
I can constantly flip. This not just the margins like
this guy over here. No, I, I was not Pablo Escobar.
I could not, I could not, you know, get any sort of profit
margin, but I could make I can flip enough.

(14:50):
Yeah, but wow, Yeah. So every week I'll make a weekly
run back to Baltimore, pick up from a guy who supply me, take
it out to the college that I do that every week.
So we always had a supply some one way or another.
Yeah. And, you know, and then we
started getting into coke and ofcourse we knew a guy that when.
Cocaine in the 80s must have been great.

(15:12):
We knew a guy that would give itto us, but he lived in Florida
and he wouldn't mail it to us. Of course he lived.
So we had to drive down to Florida to get the Coke to bring
it back. That's a long drive. 18 hours,
yeah, did. You have any coke left when you
got back? Yeah, no.
Well, we had. Yes, actually, believe it or
not, we we decided not to. Trip back only took nine hours
Which? Was really just get high the

(15:37):
whole way back. But of course, but when we get
back to, you know, the college, we were cutting it and doing
what we need to do. Yeah.
Yeah. So but then I hit, I came to the
point in my life where I hit a bottom.
I was pumping. Real quick, I've been to some of
your anniversaries and I've never heard any of this because
like you've been clean for so long.
You just hear all like the good later recovery stuff, but like

(15:57):
this is the good. Stuff this is.
Thank you. Yeah.
So I hit, I hit a bottom. I it was bad.
I was pumping so much crap in mybody.
The drugs weren't working anymore.
And feelings were coming up. And they and feelings were
coming up and, you know, I was going to my friends, you know,
I'm this happening. And like, dude, we don't want to
hear this. Here, take this.

(16:17):
This will fix you Every time. Yeah, every time they would say
that. And it was at the point I was
actually, I was. I was ready to die.
I was done. I wanted to kill myself.
And it was at the point where I wanted to put so much crap in my
body. I didn't want to wake up.
But every morning I woke up, I was like, damn it, you know?
Yeah, that's never a good feeling.
Yeah, I'd be like, oh, man, the birds are singing, the sun's up.

(16:39):
I don't want this. I'm always hoping to die.
And I was doing that for a while.
And then I came to the point where I actually, I don't know,
I looked myself in the mirror, which I hate looking myself in
the mirror, and I said I need some help.
So I decided to go to a meeting just randomly.
Yeah. Yeah.
I mean, I knew about. I knew about meetings because I

(17:01):
was introduced back in 1984 through a friend of mine who
actually introduced me. And he would take me to meetings
maybe two or three times a year of that.
If I knew I was going to a meeting that one day, I wouldn't
use for that one day because thelast thing I want to be doing is
being profiled. The other people going to.
Man, he's high. Because I don't want you guys.
I didn't want you guys to kill my buzz.
But as soon as he dropped me off, I was off to the race.

(17:22):
But so it's. Very conscientious of you
because there's a lot of people in the Baltimore area that like,
I don't care. I'm showing up to the meeting as
high as they're fucking kite. Right, Well, I know you guys
kill my buzz 'cause I was very, I was like, do they know?
They know. I was so paranoid.
Yeah, trust me, it wasn't because I cared, okay?
It wasn't even close that 'causeit was always about me.

(17:42):
Yeah. So I went to a meeting and at
the very first meeting, I went to clean without my friend.
It was a Tuesday night meeting at Shepard Pratt.
Huge meeting. It was in their.
Captain Towson, Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
It was so big they split it off into two meetings on separate
sides of the cafeteria. Yeah, yeah.
And I remember, and I remember Iwas going to sitting down this

(18:04):
meeting and there was this guy. I remember everyone at that
meeting. Unfortunately, no one's around
today. That's what we're talking back
in 87. It was seven years ago.
Yeah. So I remember the guy sitting
next to me, and I remember him from high school.
I never used with this guy. He was a year younger than me,
but I never knew that, you know?Yeah, he was an addict like
myself. And I remember he had with him 2
packs of cigarettes and a pack of licorice and back then.

(18:26):
A pack of licorice. Yes.
Black licorice or red liquor? Red licorice.
OK, I'll pack. That's exactly.
Is there a demon here? Like what the fuck is going on?
Black licorice? Who the fuck's carrying around
black licorice? I.
Actually have a great story about that for after the
podcast. Fucking demons over here.
And so here, you know, he and I met back then you were allowed
to smoke in meetings. Yeah, which was if you were a

(18:48):
smoking, that's the dream. Those meetings were haven if you
if you didn't smoke. They were awful.
They were horrible. So I smoked, which was great.
Yeah. But then they offered me a piece
of licorice. I don't know about where you
guys grew up. Where I grew up, if somebody
gives you something, there's a string attached.
Yeah. You know, And I was like, no,
no, I'm good. Bottom line, he was just being
nice. Yeah.
I didn't take the licorice, though.
Yeah. But I I, that was my first

(19:09):
meeting clean. And, you know, they told me to
do 90 meetings and 90s. I did probably 120.
I lived in the rooms. Yeah.
I had to do what I do because I I wanted to die.
I hated myself, but I didn't want to go back to the way I was
doing what I was doing. I mean, it was, it was bad.
I mean, actually, I remember with this one story, it was very
embarrassing. I was at the college and I
wanted to, I had my car there atthe college and I wanted to

(19:32):
wait. What?
Kind of car are you driving at this point?
A Plymouth Volare 1979 station wagon.
I don't even know what that is. Say that again, but the station
wagon sounds so. Cool a Plymouth Volare 1979
station wagon and it had on it 120,000 miles on it.
The dashboard lights did not work, the gas tank was cracked,

(19:55):
there was an oil leak and to start the car I had to open up
the hood and like. Oh yeah, to tap on it.
Oh my God this car looks beautiful.
It was. It was you.
Could sleep in this thing. I actually sleep and actually
have sex in that just want. To let you know, you could have
sex in this. I mean, this looks like 1980s
like we're going to pull up to like the, you know, Yeah.

(20:15):
Lover's lane typed car. Oh.
God, yeah. It was given to you.
It was my dad's car and he gave it to me since he he got another
one. That's pretty dope.
It's Did you have the wood paneling?
Please tell me you have the. Wood.
No, I'm sorry, I did not. It was all maroon all over.
My dad was not in the wood. Panel so great, I finished.
Oh wait, no. So there's the station.
Wagon And actually that was his second.

(20:36):
That was his second station wagon that he ever had.
That's such a cool car. Okay, so get the station wagon
so you're. Back in college.
And I was going to drive. I was going to drive to like a
fast food restaurant with a friend of mine, go out to the
parking lot. My car is not there.
I am flipping out. So I go to the campus security
and say, listen, listen, my car was stolen to go.
We'll have this guy drive aroundwith you and try and find your

(20:58):
car. We're driving around, can't find
it. So then we're driving around
only just in the outskirts, outskirts of the college where
the streets were. There is my car parked on the
street, parked on the street that I use so much I don't even
remember parking there at all. Oh, so you parked your car?
I parked my car, don't remember.And here's The thing is it was
on a one way St. facing the wrong way.

(21:21):
Yeah. And I was just like, and now and
next, you know, the officer makes calls and then he goes,
yeah, we got one of those again.And I was real embarrassed.
I was like, I cannot believe I'mone of those.
I was. Like you didn't play it off?
What do you do? But I mean, you're like, shit,
someone stole my car. Yeah, I wouldn't park it.
No, I didn't play it off at all.I think it was the shocking of

(21:43):
it all. Yeah, I just like it had to be
me. Yeah, it had to be me.
And I mean, my keys are on my hand.
They didn't. They never let my.
Bro, your keys were in your hand.
Yeah, that's not a good. Start.
Not a good start. No.
And that was like, that was during the, that was because
obviously I and I heard like years later from friends of mine
that I used to use with, I used to black out a lot.
I just don't remember a lot of stuff till this day, Yeah.

(22:04):
That's what, a blackout. Is yeah, but, but yeah, pretty
much. And but for me to drive and to
be there scared me a lot. But did it stop me using right
then? No, it didn't.
I kept going. Yeah, of course.
But but that was like one of those stories.
But like, but as time went on, Ijust like, I just got involved
in the rooms, you know. I mean, did you want me to tell
a little bit of like how it was for me a little in the end?
Was that your body? Bring us from.

(22:25):
My bottom was just wanting to die.
Yeah. And just.
And that's. And for me, that's what scared
me the most of it because I was,like I said, like I was trying
to use so much that I wouldn't wake up in the morning.
Well, from 87 to here. How did you get here?
Oh wow, I took I took I-95 so sothat.
Was a terrible day. Thank you.

(22:46):
Well, I mean would be more, would be more 795.
Yeah, that's very true, Very true.
So, you know, so I was going to meetings like I was doing 120
meetings and I just got involved.
You know, I mean, there was actually this brand new meeting
that started in Reisterstown andI was going to give yourself a
break. It's still there today.
And I was going to meetings for about a week going front 'cause

(23:07):
there were no meetings in Carroll County at the time when
I was going to college out therewas nothing.
And so I would, my days were like this.
I'll wake up in the morning, I'll go to and from class to my
dorm room, to and from to meals.If I wasn't going to class, I
wasn't going to meals. I was sitting in my room
watching the clock, living one minute at a time.
Because if I knew, if I left that room, I didn't have a
destination I'm going to use andI'm going to die.

(23:27):
And that's what I really believed.
So if I knew it was an 8:00 meeting, it took me 30 minutes
to get there. I'll get in my car at 7:00, go
to the meeting early, hang out, smoked a lot of coffee, smoked
lot of coffee, smoked like cigarettes, drank a lot of
coffee, hung out after the meeting.
Everyone used to go out after the meeting, of course.
And I don't have any money, but I don't want to go back to my
dorm room and isolate. So I would just go out, hang out
until the last person said time to go home.

(23:49):
Went on the way back to the house.
I come back to the dorm room, went back to my room and just
waited, you know, and just went back to sleep and did the same
thing the next day. I did that for my first 30 days
clean. After 30 days, I asked my mom,
hey, listen, can I move back home?
And I told her what was going on.
She said yeah. She had every right to say no.
Yeah, but she said yes. And I was very grateful.
So I was able to move back home.I got involved in the program.

(24:12):
I transferred to Towson University, which actually at
the time, actually, there's a lot of people in the program
that actually went to Towson. We didn't.
We didn't created our own meeting on the campus.
It was called where? Where?
Was there a meeting on campus? And I'm right at the IT was in
the hall, it was, it's not thereanymore, but it was called the
Shit Happens meeting. Where was it?

(24:32):
It was in what? Which?
Hall. The union.
It was in the union hall, yeah. Oh, that's kind of cool that you
guys got a meeting in. Yeah, it was called the Shit
Happens meeting and it was every, and they put that in the
in the schedule. Yeah.
So it was great. And then after a little while,
the meeting moved off campus andthen finally and then the
meeting just closed after some years ago.
But it was a great meeting Friday at noon, nice.
And we would have it every Friday and it was great.

(24:55):
But I never finished college. I just, I've realized while
going to school, I really had zero study habits because I was
getting high all the time. I was using all the time.
So I decided just to work and doa trade and what trade actually,
I was just actually my thing wasI was just working my very first
job clean. I worked at a video rental store

(25:17):
called Budget video. That's.
Amazing. OK.
Which is pretty wild and actually when I went there I
met. If nothing else dated you that
did. What you could?
Rent for the kids there listening.
He used to go to these places and get movies and bring them
home. Yes, and he had to be kind and
rewind. Kind and rewind or be.
Kind and rewind. Every time.

(25:39):
And if you're not, you get charged.
Yeah, $1.00, Yeah. That's a lot of money back then.
Yeah, that's why you could better rewind it.
So that's my first. And but then I just like I was
going, I was doing the road of like working at banks and, you
know, working as a registers andI'll register a cashier
somewhere, you know, doing that kind of stuff.
But after that I like I was like, I don't know, I I was, I

(26:02):
decided to go in the career or broadcasting.
So I was doing I went to this trade school.
You have the voice for it. Thank you very much.
Thank you, A lot of people say. I also have the Face 4 radio,
which is fantastic. I love that a lot.
That's not that. That's rude.
But I'm just laughing. You're a good.
Looking good. Thank you.
You have a you have a great voice, though, as far as like
your tone, like for Yeah, that's.

(26:23):
Good. So I went to school for that.
I was a trade school, and I was doing radio and television for a
little while, still clean. And wherever I lived, like in
Delaware or Southern Maryland, that's where I did a lot of
stuff. I went to meetings, Yeah, no
matter where I was. And then afterwards, you know,
and at the same time, I'm working steps.
I'm going to meetings. I'm doing what I need to do and

(26:45):
at one time in my life actually,and after I was done with that,
I got married and my wife who's also in the program, I met her
in the program. Got married at 11 years clean.
Yes, 10111011 actually. No, actually, was it 10?
It was like 10-11 years clean. Yeah, because it was 98.
Because. You just celebrated 2626 -?

(27:05):
37 is 11. Yeah, look at, look at that.
And welcome, ladies, gentlemen, to your math portion of the
program. But yeah, but but I got married
and then afterwards I had to think about like making more
money. And, but even before then,
actually, I was in a career of Iwas an MC for beauty pageants.

(27:26):
Yeah, I did that for 2-3 years straight from 96 to 98 where
there was a company called Nationals Inc and.
Did you do like the state ones each state like?
Oh welcome, Miss Wisconsin. It was city pageant, so I was in
California for Miss Sacramento, Miss LA, Miss San Diego, and I
forgot what was the other one. But anyway.

(27:48):
But yeah, I did all that. I travelled around.
It was my weekend gig and I had my weekdays off and wherever I
was in the in the state, in the nation, I went to a meeting.
That's nice. And so I had like all these
schedules from everywhere I went.
It was fantastic. That made all these great
people. And so it was awesome.
And then I decided to get married and settle down.
So I was trying to go through the finance thing meanwhile.

(28:08):
Meanwhile, I'd never graduated college yet.
And, and it was, it was fine. But there were things about the
finance world I did not like. And and I wasn't, I wasn't happy
if I was making money. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And the same time, my wife, she went back to school to get her
doctorate and after she got her doctorate in occupational
therapy actually, so she was done.

(28:29):
She goes, OK, now you're going back to school.
So then I went back to school and you know, a funny story
about. So here I am.
I'm still doing, I'm still working the program.
I'm still what I need to do. And I go back to school and.
In your 30s? 40s forties, 40s OK, so I
decided to go to take my transcripts from W Maryland
College and from Towson and go to Carroll Community College and

(28:52):
go hear my transcripts. And I was just going there just
doing research and I walked in the door.
She looked my transcripts and she goes, if you take these
seven classes, we'll give your AA, I said after.
She blew the dust off. I found out credits never
expire. Really credits never expire, OK.
And I was, and we're talking over 20 years.
I probably have a solid 4 credits hanging out there.

(29:16):
Nice. So I said sign me up for all
seven classes right now. And she goes, whoa, whoa, whoa.
You haven't been in school in 20years.
Yeah, Why don't you start with one class?
I'm like, who's this woman, My sponsor?
Who is this? Yeah, But I'm a huge believer
that through the steps that God speaks through people.
And that's my thing. Yeah.
And so I believe that was a message.
From that might be the title, Eric.
God speaks through people. Yeah, that's a pretty awesome.

(29:37):
One, I mean, I get that a lot through life and I went back to
school and thank God for the program which taught me a lot of
things which I did not have in the beginning, which was asking
for help. The professors are out there
actually to help you, not to hurt you.
And if you put the work in, you'll get the results.
And I didn't do any of that in the beginning.
I just thought it was supposed to naturally come to me and

(29:58):
you're either in or out. I didn't realize there was work
behind and you have to ask for help.
And I asked for help a lot. I even saw tutors, you know, I
had, I had to take on English one O 2.
I took English one O 1 back in the late 80s, early 90s.
And here I have to take English one O 2 now.
And I used the campus tutors andit was the the best decision
ever made. I walked out of college over

(30:19):
this time with a 4.0 Nice. And it's not because I'm smart.
It's because I did the work. Yeah.
And that's the most important thing.
It's about doing the work, doingwhat I need to do.
But, and as of today, like I saytoday, I still go to a lot of
meetings. I'm in a career that I love.
I'm in IT. I'm a software developer slash
infrastructure engineer. And I did that.

(30:41):
That's what I'm back to school for.
I've been with this company for nine years now.
I love what I do. I love going to work.
I love my wife and I are still together.
We just celebrated 26 years of marriage.
Absolutely love it my kids. Shout out to Wifey.
Yes, yes, she's a St. She is a St.
Had two kids in the process. They're both grown now.
They never see me use. They see me crazy, but they

(31:03):
never see me use. And, you know, they knew about
my wife and I being in the program and.
But no, they're great. There's been a lot of trials and
tribulations for the years with raising kids.
You know, if you have a teenagerout there, my heart does go out
for you and I can help you through that.
Yeah. And but no, but they're, but I

(31:23):
have great relationships with them today.
And thankfully they did not go down the same path as my wife
and I. Yeah.
You know, they, you know, they're actually I they're
actually lightweights. You know, they just like drink a
little like they have like 1 alcohol band.
They're like, OK, we're done. We're like, are you, I go to my
wife. Are you shooting?
Hours are there. Hours.
And they were and. They would say, dad, what are

(31:44):
you saying? Are you trying to encourage us?
I'm like, no, but you know, I'm like, we're just wondering, did
we pick up the wrong babies fromthe hospital?
What's going on? But no, they, I mean, they're
great. I mean, they, you know, like
they've been to meetings with mewhen they were little because
when my wife was getting her doctorate, they would, I would
take them to meetings and everyone was very awesome with
them. They were great.

(32:04):
And actually they, they enjoyed the time like especially
Saturday night, we go to Owana whatever and they loved it
there. They knew everyone there.
So and going out to eat afterwards, but it was great.
I'm just. Owana.
Yeah, it was great, just like doing that and and where I am
today, actually, I'm, I'm the best place where I can be in my
recovery. Oh yeah.
You know, I, I feel very more atpeace that.

(32:27):
Was your Home group right, Owana?
No, people. Thought it was because I used to
go there all the time but I usedto go to a lot of meetings all
the time. People thought, aren't you?
Wait, was it Thursday? Hope and Hampstead.
Well, actually it was Hope and Hampstead, but.
Wasn't it Saint Mark's for a second St.
Mark's where's? Or Saint Martin's.
In Westminster. No, the one on Pikesville.
Oh, topics of recovery. The Thursday night meeting.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Isn't that your home?

(32:47):
Group at one time that was, and at one time, I hope it,
Hampstead was, yeah. Yeah.
But now I'm in New Beginnings, which is in Westminster.
OK. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I go.
I like to hop. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
But I've been in the new beginnings for a little bit
actually. But one time there was like a
men's rap in Thursday night in Timonium area.
The one time that was also. Well, that's awesome You're out
in Carroll too, because Carroll doesn't have as much as like
here. Yeah, that's very true.

(33:08):
That's very true. One time it was very little, but
now we got like maybe two or three a night, which is
fantastic. Whoever thought?
Two or three, yeah, I know. When I was in Eldersburg, it was
like when I lived there, I was like, man, there's not a lot of
meetings out. Here, right.
Right now. Very true.
But that's great that it's like come up.
Big time last. Few years.
It just takes a resentment in a coffee pot.
That's all you need. But yeah, so, but where I am

(33:31):
today is like I said, I'm still have a sponsor and actually he's
got me working traditions. I still, I hit still.
I had five meetings a week stillnice.
And that's just me because I work from home.
Yeah, every day. And at the end of the day I want
to get out. So Monday through Friday I hit a
meeting. I may hit one Sunday morning,
Saturday. Sometimes I may or may not.
Usually I don't anniversaries and that's it.
But I love and for me, I know a lot of people just go to their

(33:54):
own Home group, which is one meeting a week, which is fine
and I'm not one of the judge. But when I go to a different
meeting, I get a different groupof people every night.
And so for me, bonus Oh. Yeah, everybody knows you.
Yeah, dude, you're everywhere. I love, I love, I love being, I
love knowing people. And also I'll put myself out
there because a lot of people, you can see the same people, but
you really don't know them because they don't talk.
I love reaching out. I love reaching out to a

(34:14):
newcomer, just like talking withpeople and just, you know, I
love, I love people. Yeah.
I never thought I would be here,considering I was an isolator
back then. Yeah.
And it's it's wonderful. It's so freeing.
It's like the best ever. Hell, yeah.
I love it. Well, we definitely got some.
Questions for you. OK, OK.
Carly, what you got? Sure, I'll go first.
All right. So there was some aspect of

(34:35):
religion in your childhood? Yes.
How did that affect your spirituality and concept of a
higher power? Well, it's an excellent
question. So I was brought up in a
household where there was a punishing God, You know, I would
be like. You're Jewish, correct?
I am. You were raised.
I was raised, born and actually my OH.
Yeah, Old Old Testament. Goddess, Yeah, yeah, yeah.
My my father's side, the family,they're Hasidic Orthodox.

(34:59):
I was gonna ask. Yes, the black Hatters, the
beards, my mom was not, but theywere born.
So back then they got people gotmarried, were part of the same
tribe, my mom. So my mom's side, my mom's side,
my dad's side were part of the same tribe, but one was more
religious than the other. But I was brought up in a
household where children, like Isaid, God was a punishing God.
And it will be like, I will be like 7 years old playing with my

(35:20):
friends. And this is a true story.
I got hurt one time. I ran home to my mom.
I got hurt. And her exact words were, you
know why he got hurt? God punished you.
Whoa. And that's where I what?
The fuck? Yeah, and even in Hebrews.
So I went to public school during the day and Hebrew school
at night at Tuesday, Thursdays and Sunday mornings.
God, which was the way to do it back in the elementary school

(35:42):
area because you always go up tothe bar mitzvah thing and then
you went to you do whatever you want to do.
But I always hear about the punishing God.
So when I came to NA and lookingfor help and I saw God in the
steps, I'm like, I'm screwed. I came here looking for help.
Yeah, Yeah. So my friend, my friend who
introduced me to NA and who actually was my first sponsor,

(36:04):
he said to me, you know how? Because he knew the way I grew
up. He went from the same
neighborhood. He said, we know Howard, you can
choose. It says a God of your
understanding. You can choose anything you want
to be the God of your understanding.
And I was really, I was really confused at first.
I don't know where to go. So I was asking everyone in the
program from the atheist, agnoxist to the most religious.

(36:24):
And I got a lot of different answers as a result of that.
From what God of mine is saying today is more like it's loving
and caring, care for others, stay out of my head and to
listen to my heart and also be open minded to what people say
to me rather than shutting them out.
So I believe doing the next right thing for the right
reason, it is very important. And I it feels good.

(36:45):
It's like a sense of freedom because, you know, I love my
family. I do, but sometimes I don't hear
that from them. Like the you know, I believe in
letting things go and I've come a long road wrong Rd. with this.
But because I used to not let things go, I was brought up in a
household and somebody does something bad to you, you hold
on to it as long as you can and you throw it in their face

(37:07):
later. They never said in those act
words, but I saw the actions. Yeah, Yeah.
And I didn't think that was God's will.
That's mine. So my thing is, I know what my
will is. So my God's will when it comes
to spirituality, at that point, it's just more like, like I
said, I do things for my heart, like it's the right thing to do
because I know for me, I ask myself, what would I want?
Yeah. How would I?

(37:28):
So that's what I hope I answeredyour question correctly.
All right. Cool.
Nice. Yeah.
What you got, Eric? I have a lot of questions.
Is it about the car I can? Answer No, no, no, not about the
car. I I think let's let, let's stick
with the Pikesville theme for a moment here.
Like it had to be definitely different growing up in

(37:49):
Pikesville than growing up in, let's say, Catonsville or White
Marsh or Columbia. Shut the fuck up, David.
You know, there's something called a narrative, OK, you're
trying to build here. Wow.
Yield. All of my questions to Eric.
So like, just talk a little bit more about that and like trying
to find yourself in like the world when you're growing up,

(38:14):
especially since half of your family is, you know, one way and
the other half is another way. That's very confusing.
And then you also are living right next to a city in like
Park Heights, like, which is on one side of you.
And then the other side of you, you have like Carroll County,
which I mean, what a fucking juxtaposition there.
So like, how did you kind of come to terms with that growing

(38:35):
up and decide to kind of, you know, take the path you're on
today? Yeah, great question.
So where I grew up, I grew up inright near Millbrook Elementary
School. Now Millbrook Elementary School
is right near Reisterstown Rd. Plaza.
So we were right on the county city line.
So I went to a County School, but we had a city zip code.

(38:58):
So and also in all the neighborhoods, you know, we
compared to like my friends in Pikesville, we had alleys.
Yeah, yeah. And my friend said to me who
like from the neighborhoods, Howard, we lived in the ghetto
of Pikesville and I'm like going, you know, because she,
she said to me, because we have alleys, I'm like, I never
thought of it like that. But the alleys were great
because that's where we used to ride our bicycles in the alleys.
Of course it was great. But you know, and it was very

(39:19):
hard to find myself because hereI'm going to a school where
everyone had these single familyhomes and these nice cars and
you know, and I'm just like, I had no idea how to find myself.
It, it was, it was very difficult.
And I think the biggest thing that helped me, it was through
time. And where I am today is, I

(39:39):
guess, you know, besides workingthe steps and finding out who I
am, which is a big thing, just the people I hung out with, you
know, I mean, granted, through the years I had to, they told me
to pick the winners. And there was, there was some
people that I picked in the beginning or even like,
sometimes I like if it, it was more of a gut feeling through

(40:00):
time because if for some reason something didn't feel right, but
I saw other people doing it, it's I just want to go forward
it. And a great thing when it came
to this was like relationships. You know, I was hanging out with
a bunch of guys who knew, who were giving me advice about
relationships that knew nothing about relationships.
And and I'm going. This doesn't feel right, but I

(40:23):
was doing it anyway and I had to.
It was, it's tough to stand up for myself and saying, I mean, I
can't, it doesn't feel right. I just can't hang with you.
Yeah. And actually part of my life,
there was this close friends that I used to be with in the
program and they would hang out with other people in the other
people. I can't see if they're in the

(40:43):
program or not, but other peoplethat were not about what I was
about and they would hang with them and I share with them and I
said, listen, I can't hang. I love you guys, but I can't
hang you with you anymore because you're with people that
are not about what I'm about. And so I hung out with other
people, actually people that were older in the program and
like more adult and I, I had to learn how to grow.
And so from there there was a lot of give and take.

(41:06):
There's a lot of things also, you know, talk about growing up
in Pikes and everything, even the religious aspect, you know,
I don't follow through. Like, I don't go to synagogue.
I used to go when when I was younger, I was going to because
I had to. Yeah.
Yeah. And because.
But as I got older, the only reason I went in the even the
most recent years, because my father would go and we will go
just in the High Holidays. Yeah.

(41:27):
Yeah. Like I want to go in the
Sabbath. But it was really weird because
growing up, my dad never went, you know, He was done.
He was the oldest of three. And he was the renegade of the
family, you said. He was from the Hasidic side
too, right? Yeah, he actually, he.
Oh, well, he ran away from home to join the army at 18.
Wow. Yeah.
Where his mother found him to give him his retainer in the

(41:48):
army. Great story.
He was the one that his. Retainer, yeah.
So like he went to a Talmud. It's a place called Talmud
Academy, which is still around today, which is like an all
Jewish high school. And he'll be the one he worked
in the AV room where he'll be like making alcohol in the AV
room. He would be the one that rewired
the AV system so you can hear what's going on in the

(42:08):
principal. 'S dad's the prank my.
Dad, he was the your. Dad was David.
Thank you. So, but then, but now in recent
years, he's like, you know, Howard, you should go to
synagogue more. I'm like, how can you put that
on me when you didn't even do that?
I said, Dad, I'll go with you onthe High Holidays.
But now I'm at the point where I, I don't go on the high
Holidays anymore. But I, for me, it's more of a

(42:30):
spiritual thing. I do, I do, my thing is today is
I do more meditation. I do my quiet time every
morning. I do some meditation.
I do a little bit of reading andI do prayer, but even the prayer
part, I don't pray in Hebrew because I was like, what am I
saying? So I do my prayers in English

(42:51):
and it actually works for me, but it's not like.
And for me to share this is hugebecause for me considering.
Currently praying in Latin. Yeah.
No, that's what no. Did you have to learn it in
Catholic? School.
No, but that's totally fair. To be like, if I don't
understand this language, why amI going to pray in it?
Exactly. And I was doing it because
everyone else was doing it. Yeah.
And that's what I was taught. You're faking it until you make

(43:13):
it. Yeah.
And unfortunately I didn't make it down that road, but I had to
create. I actually had to follow others
who actually where I am today when I feel more connected to
God on my understanding. Yeah, rather than the religious
God, which is fine if you're art.
That's fantastic. I I that's wonderful.
I'm for me, I had to do what I had to do.
I mean, who even knew I would even be here?

(43:34):
Yeah. You know, I took.
I took a chance. I had nothing to lose.
Yeah. I hope I answered your question.
OK. You did all right.
You talked about, you know, having divorce being part of
your story at a young age. How pivotal was that in sort of,
I don't know towards, I don't know, shooting your trajectory

(43:57):
towards addiction and was it? Well, that was a lot because it
was like I said, it was about escaping, you know, and.
Because I like, I imagine like you were probably one of the
only kids who were a a child of divorce at the time.
Very few. Yeah.
Felt apart. Well, especially in your
community, too. Yeah, that had to be very rare.

(44:18):
It, it was very rare. It was something that was
unheard of. But also at the same time, the
people I had to say, but the people in my neighborhood, they
were married. They, we just heard a lot of
yelling in the neighborhood. We really did.
But yeah, it was, it was just itwas a way to escape when the
kids would never be at home. The kids would be in the
playgrounds because we didn't want to hear it.
You know, we didn't want to hearit.

(44:39):
And as far as the addiction, of course, you were like, you know,
we're getting together. What do we do?
OK, we'll play some basketball, whatever.
But hey, how about this alcohol?I mean, alcohol was huge in the
neighborhood. So that was the way we escaped
whatever towards the addiction of it all, you know, and I love
my parents. I do.
And they did the best they could.
And, you know, and back then, you know, you didn't just simply

(45:00):
move out and move together. It's like you get married 1st
and then you live together. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And that's the way it was. And that's, you know, they got
married young in early 20s, hopefully 2021, because that's
what they wanted to do. But as a result of their what
they went through, I knew what Idid want and I knew what I
didn't want. And very true story.
Both my parents gave me advice separately, and they gave me the

(45:23):
same advice separately. Wait until I'm at least 30 to
get married. Interesting.
Which I found that. And because they weren't talking
at the time, they both gave me the same advice.
And I'm like, all right. But I also, I learned not to
settle And. And that's who I learned.
I had to learn how to date. Yeah.
Which I never knew how to date. Yeah.

(45:44):
And actually women. In the world.
You know. Were you, Was anybody ever
really taught like how to date people?
No, no, I mean I had a bird in the bees talk which was
hilarious. But knowing your dad, that
sounds horrendous. He was just like, wear a condom.
That was it. That's.
That's an important. But actually, I learned from the
women in the program how to date.

(46:05):
Not from the men, Yeah. From the women, yeah.
And it was wonderful. That's a good place to start.
Cuz it was a lot. Of men suck.
It was yeah, yeah, yeah. And The thing is I think it's
not because they do, but becausethey weren't taught and they
were taught differently cuz I was taught differently.
I'm like, I had all these close women friends.
I'm like all right, teach me. And I learned how to date and

(46:26):
and because I knew how to jump into a relationship.
Yeah. Yeah.
Both feet. Let's go.
Let's see where it takes us. Didn't take far.
Yeah. And also I was doing a lot of
growing up. I learned how to date.
And that's who I ended up with the woman I'm with today and 26
years marriage. It's fantastic.
And I learned how to be a betterfather, a better husband, a

(46:46):
better friend as a result of. And it was trial and error,
Yeah, but it was it was great. And, and actually, I'd do
something with my kids that I never received this from my
parents. When I when I'm wrong, I
apologize to them. Yeah.
That's very important. Parents have never till this day
have apologized for anything, and that's where they are.
But I do apologize to my kids with my right there on the spot
when it happens. As a result of that, I have a

(47:08):
strong relationship with them. Yeah.
Absolutely. Which I love and so I'm sorry
that I had to go through. I had to go through.
But from what I went through forthe divorce, I got to change my
ways. So the toxicity and the just
stops here and I don't want to pass that on to that.
So you got to basically you got to learn what not to do.

(47:29):
Yeah, nice. Yeah.
All right. What do you got, Carly?
What other ways has addiction manifested itself in your
recovery? Yeah, great, great question.
You know, I've heard your previous podcast, I've heard
this question. I'm going.
I got to do research on this onebecause I would feel like
someone. Was going to ask it.
Because I've been in some ways. How would you answer this one?
Yeah, You know, when I put down the drugs, everything else

(47:51):
popped up, you know, you know, you know something, it's, it's
weird. I was, I was thinking about this
and my my thing was, you know, Imean, I did a lot of gambling.
I did a lot of food, but my I got it.
I got it. I was just, my thing was just

(48:12):
addicted towards knowledge. I think I went a little too far
in the knowledge part to be honest with you.
OK, where which my my thing was,I would just like, what do you
mean by that? Like somebody would answer.
Like I would ask someone a question, they would answer.
Like what do you mean by that? What do you mean by that?
I was it was the point where it was annoying.
It was like, I would call it theWoody Wood and you.
Didn't. And you didn't have Google, so

(48:32):
you know. What is this?
What is guys? Where's the encyclopedia?
That's right. I have, I say encyclopedias
Britannica, but I had to like like, what does it mean by that?
What do you mean? Because I was searching,
searching knowledge, knowledge, fact checking the old fashioned
way. But it was at the point where
like Howard, people had to pull me up.
There was a stop. Just accept it.

(48:54):
I'm like, but what do you mean by that?
You know, I mean, I mean just like it was, I was for me, it
was it was an insecurity. It was because I always wanted
to be in the now, I didn't want to miss out on anything and I
didn't want to. I hate that insecure feeling
because I didn't have enough knowledge and I had a difficult
time accepting. It's the answer, you know, and

(49:16):
that's it. But that's pretty much like how
it went in because I was always digging more, digging more and
looking out more, looking out more because in the beginning
and I came to in the beginning because I would like to say
something or do something in themeeting and somebody will come
up to me after, after the meeting go, you know, that's
breaking traditions right there.And I would be like, OK, but
then and that's just like, all right, fine.

(49:36):
But then afterwards I would someone said to me one another
time that's bringing traditions.So I would say which one they
wouldn't have an answer. Personally, I think they were
saying that because they didn't like what I said.
And you know, and like, I'll just have to say that because I
don't like it. But then I learned how to do
more research. Arguing is fun.
Oh. Yeah, especially when I have
like very little time and they have all the time in the world
because I and I feel wrong all the time, which doesn't help.

(49:59):
It's an insecurity that I have, but that's how that's how it
would manifest. But I learned how to back off,
accept more and be more open minded towards others.
And just I so for me, I have to I learn that that people that do
talk to me have my best interestrather than the old way I used
to think no one has my best interest.

(50:20):
Yeah, but I believe that the people that talk to me too.
And that's why I turn that around.
Nice, fantastic. What'd you Oh, really?
Since you looked at me so fun fact about like learning and
stuff, That's why Guinness Book of World Records was created.
It was actually, it's the same company that made Guinness.
Yeah, it was. That book was created to settle

(50:43):
bar fights. Like when people will be like,
how do you know that? How do you know that?
So they created a book of just stupid facts.
And that's what Guinness World Records was.
It was a way and it would. And it was initially like sold
in bars in Ireland. Like when people get into
arguments over stupid shit, refer to the Guinness Book of.
Records. True story.

(51:03):
I believe it. It is.
It's a. Terrible, terrible fact A.
Terrible fact. What do you got, Eric?
All right, so you got you got clean.
Real young. Yeah, like real, real young.
I mean, there's a lot of people who hadn't even started using.
That's true. I hear that A.
Lot. Do you know what I mean?
Like at that point, I think, I mean, I think we're all young

(51:26):
users. Here, early bird drinks the
worm. But no, I I mean I even felt
I've. Never said that before.
That was a great job. I've, I've even felt like, you
know, I, I start using at 15 andI was like, that's late because
David started using it at like 12, right?
So I'm like, oh man, I, I waitedtoo long.
But so like has that messed you up during your recovery of

(51:48):
feeling because you never got tohave a drink legally you like?
Well, the drinking age was 18 back.
Then. But no, no, no not.
But my fake ID was my fake. My fake ID was grandfathered in.
OK, there you because I. Got when I was 16, I got a 19
fake ID that said I was 19. I was going to University of
Maryland and then they put in the law about 8 when I was 16.

(52:09):
Right after that, they put in the law that they bumped the age
up to 21, but some people grandfathered.
Is that a big deal at the time? Were people like?
Yeah, because the people that were just waiting to turn 18,
yeah, 19 and. 20 year olds were.Paid but I was okay.
My fake ID said I was 19 so I was good and my fake ID was
grandfathered in. Okay, okay.
Fine, so how? But how did that?

(52:29):
How do you feel like do you haveany, probably not, but do you
have any reservations about thator any like certain, I know, I
know not by now, but like did you have reservations about that
at any point? Not no, not really.
You know, the only reservation Iever had when I was using, I

(52:50):
wanted a 21 to go out with a bigblast 'cause I would been the
legal drinking age for me. Yeah, Yeah.
But when I was 21. Did you have a big Mitt?
Did you have a mitzvah? A bar mitzvah?
Yeah, Yes, I did. Did.
You have a blowout. Yeah, 'cause I used to film.
I used to film them, like for years.
And I would tell, I would say topeople, I'd be like, mitzvahs

(53:11):
are bigger than most weddings, dude.
They were like, it's absurd how much money gets thrown.
In well, a lot of people today, they'll do the whole bar mitzvah
party thing with the whole family.
Yeah. Back.
Well, back then it was mixed. So my bar mitzvah party was just
with my friends. OK.
Now, my mom and my dad, they would do separate thing.
They had, they like luncheons, but it was something really
simple, like get a deli platter,go to someone's house.

(53:32):
Yeah, not like today where you're dressed up in the whole
thing there's. A DJ, dude, there's an
underwater theme with like, I backup dancers and like, there's
a surfing. Like there one time I went to
one, they had like the whole theme was like under the sea or
something, and they had a surfing thing set up.
Have you seen those? Like they're like bouncy things,

(53:55):
but they have like a surfboard. Yeah.
And you can ride them and like, yeah, yeah, it was.
And his whole thing was set up like a carnival.
So you went to all these little games and stuff and I was like,
wow, man, this is crazy and overthe top, but cool for him, yeah.
So you wanted a 21 year old blowout?
Yeah, which I didn't have. I was two.
I was two years clean at the time.
Yeah, but you know, but that wasmy only.

(54:17):
And when I share with my friendsabout my reservation, so my 21st
birthday, they showed up for my birthday.
Yeah, which was great because they knew about me.
I put it out there, just my close friends, they show it.
They're like, we're here for you.
And, and actually it was great. But I never resented the fact
that I never had a legal drink. And actually I just, like I
said, hey, just let you know, never had a legal drink.
They were like, and people were like, wow, you were freaking

(54:39):
old. And we're like, you got clean
super young. But no, I never felt like that
at all. Because I guess for me, I, I
always had everything at my fingertips.
You know, it, it wasn't like that at all.
Not going to reservation like that at all, per SE.
Great question. Since you are you know the age

(54:59):
of the dinosaurs in the rooms and you did step work, pre step
work and guide so. Pretty cool.
So how has you know how have therooms changed in general, but
also have you done step work like in the book and out of the
book? OK, so go through just like how
the how the rooms have changed in, you know, forever, Yeah, and

(55:23):
37 years, how much? Time do we have and you know.
How how step work changed from one way to the other?
That's great. So the rooms have changed in the
years many different ways. Yeah, you have to remember, and
in Baltimore, MD, NA started like 8182 and I came in 87, so
it's still brand new. So when I came in the people
with the most time, it was like 5-6 years at most.

(55:45):
Yeah. So I can't even fathom someone
coming in the rooms today and have seen someone with 30 some
years. Yeah, it's overwhelming.
Yeah. Also, people were more close
together. So people like, I mean, everyone
knew everyone. And I think meeting size,
meeting size, well, not me by lack, but meetings period.
Like there was the one meeting on Tuesday, people would go and

(56:07):
everyone knew everybody. And but my, my thing is how they
change today. I think there's so many of us
were falling through the cracks and it's very scary.
Yeah. You know, and people, I think
people don't reach out as much as they used to.
Yeah. That's.
True. And it's scary.
So I for me, what I do, my part is I reach out as much as I can.
Am IA Home group. I like to be the greeter.

(56:29):
Yeah, it's a position, but I just do it.
That was made. For you, Yeah.
I just, I love walking with people.
Someone even said to me, Howard,you have like 37 years, why are
you doing this? I'm like, because I have 37
years and I want to do this and it's another way for me to stay
plugged in. But also, you know, back then
people say, you know, work this or die, motherfucker.
Yeah, yeah. But now, now they say work the

(56:51):
steps and live, which is cool. That's more positive, right?
And I think it is. And I think also like it is a
little bit, but I think more people actually today are more
knowledgeable rather than back then when they said to me, oh,
that's breaking traditions. And now people can share, talk
to me rather than at me. But it's there's so many
positive negative. But when I back then, when I

(57:12):
think about when I went to meetings, it was amazing because
like I said, everyone knew everybody and the marathon
meetings were great during the holiday season.
Oh, yeah. And people go out more
afterwards. People don't do that as much as
they used to. And I think also when COVID
came, it also really hurt us. Yeah.
And but it's there's positive negs on both sides.

(57:33):
So where I am today with it is like, like I said, I go to a lot
of meetings. I reach out to a lot of people.
I like to talk and I like to getmy numbers out, get my numbers
out. But don't get me wrong, in the
beginning when I had my when I had like 2 1/2, three years
clean, you know, I had this corepeople and I and I personally
wasn't reaching out like I used to.
And cuz I was like, I was pushing people away like no, no,

(57:54):
no, this is my group. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
But then what happened to me wasone by one, people in my group
were leaving and then I was alone in the rooms.
So I had to learn how to reach out and then I started going to
that road again and then I just started doing my thing.
But I don't know, I think a lot of things have changed, I think
overall for the better. I think just the fearful thing

(58:15):
is there are so many of us today.
We fall through the cracks. And I think it's very important
that if you see somebody that's new or sitting alone, go up and
talk to them. And I do that all the time.
And I think it's so important just to have that connection.
So step work. So I was the I was out of the
original. I'm doing the out of the basic
blue text 3rd edition where you only write on four and eight and

(58:38):
pray about the rest. Wow.
Yeah. Because that's how my sponsor
did it and their sponsor did it.That sounds wonderful.
Wait, did you work 4 out of the pamphlet or did you work it?
No, no, Pamphlet wasn't. The pamphlet came out right
after I finished four. Okay.
Yeah. I mean, so how I worked 4 was

(58:59):
and there's two paragraphs in the base of text, one on
liabilities and one on assets. So the liabilities listed
everything and I defined them and I put them how I would work,
how I applied them or not applied them, but how they
affected my life and the assets I would define them and how it
affected my life. And that was the kind inside got
for my 4th for my 4th step. But and then a step you wrote
it. So we, we prayed about the rest,

(59:20):
which was OK. And also back then, like it was
really strange, not strange. But after I did my 4th step and
I did a fifth with my sponsor, he goes OK, and he next, you
know, this is where we burn it. I'm like.
Wait, what's that dude? 'Cause he 'cause his thing was.
That was that was the old a, a that.
Was like you like burn it and then it goes up to God.

(59:42):
So but then today when you work on separating guide, you work
your 6th off your 4th and I'm going all right.
So after I worked all 12 steps out of the basic text, I, the
stepper guy came out. Many many.
Years in the mid 90s. Actually before that.
The step working guide. No, no, I'm sorry.

(01:00:03):
When step work guy came out, I'mso sorry.
I'm see. I've had my sponsor for 20
years. Wow, 2007.
But the step work guy, I would say probably mid late 90s.
I don't know. We have to get a copyright copy
out of that. Google it, Eric.
Yeah, when did the step working guide come out?
So I got a sponsor that actuallyworked as step working guy and
he stole my sponsor today. So I worked it twice with him

(01:00:24):
out step work guy. So that's three times total.
But then after that, you know his sponsor warrant him about
me. He said Howard's going to make
you work, bottom line. And so after working three
times, he actually found a list of questions called Back to
Basics, where it gave you questions on the paragraphs in
each step and the inventory questions when each step.

(01:00:47):
So I just did. I did all that.
Yeah. So that's me working the steps
four times. And now he's got me working out
of the traditions. Nice.
Yeah. Which is really cool, actually.
And I was, I have to be honest with you.
And I've heard traditions. I was like, you want me to what?
Yeah, I was like. But actually by working it, I
feel like I've become a better person and how to talk to people
better. Yeah.
And like, and a more even keel more even though.

(01:01:09):
And don't belittle them when I talk to them about.
Hey, listen, according to this tradition that we can't do this
or we can do this kind of a dealrather than it's breaking it,
you know what I mean? It's just like it's not.
So I learned how to talk to people and, you know, in NA they
have the guiding principles where they do, they have split
off in three sections, member group and service.

(01:01:30):
He's got me working all three. Nice.
But at first I said no, but thenI said nice.
Yeah. But it's it's, it's wonderful.
So step work has now some peoplestill do it.
How? The basic text.
Yeah. Which is fine.
I was like, if you're going to work step work, just don't do it
alone. Yeah.
Doesn't matter how to do it. And go do the guidance of your
sponsor. Even though the fifth step
mentions another human being. Doesn't have to be your sponsor.

(01:01:52):
Yeah, does not. But just don't do it alone.
Yeah. I'm not finding that that's the
best suggestion I can give to anybody at all.
Absolutely. Yeah.
So to answer your question, David, the copyright listed on
the Step Working Guide list the dates of 1983 to 2008.
The 2008 edition is considered the revised and updated edition.

(01:02:14):
Okay. Okay, so.
They didn't give me an answer it.
Did not give you an answer at all.
Yeah, cool. It like it from what it's saying
it it came out likely in the late 80s and has just been was
just being revised like internally.
OK, that's that makes sense. You know, until they actually do
like an official version in 2008.

(01:02:34):
OK, OK. All right, let me fair enough.
That's. My likely guess.
All right, Eric, what'd you got?Well, this is my last question,
final question and is relevant to both probably myself and
David at the time. But you mentioned that you
brought your kids to meetings. Yes, and I have a very.
Call them out. How is that?
How is it relevant to me? I said.

(01:02:56):
I didn't say it was relevant to you.
Yes, you did. I know, I said.
Said Carly, David and me. I said David and me.
No, said Carly David and. Me.
That must have just been a Freudian slip.
I'm sorry. But what?
Wait, why did you get offended from it?
Why did you get? Offended she is not with child.
I'm not with, I'm not with childand don't have children I.
Also I love saying it that way, just being like the old are you

(01:03:16):
with child? Freudian.
Freudian slip. I have dogs.
Yes, you have dogs. But I mean, you, you weren't.
I'm OK. Get to your.
Question Continue, continue. We're continuing.
So I've always had a weird role for myself personally with this
and it's probably my Waspy like upbringing of like very similar
to like yours of like don't talkabout it where it's like I

(01:03:39):
wouldn't bring. I don't think I'd bring my child
to a meeting and I don't know how David feels about that, but
that's how I personally feel like me and my wife would work
it out and there would never be a time where like my child will
go there. What did you bet this no
continue How like how is navigating that like with having

(01:04:00):
kids and bringing them to meetings?
Because it's not that I don't want my child exposed.
Like I'm going to be very open and honest with my kids about
drugs and alcohol and like all that stuff.
It's more of it feels like sometimes it can be glamorous
and like people do not have filters in meetings.

(01:04:21):
Like, like you can hear the worst type of shit in a meeting
or in the parking lot. So like, how was that navigating
and bringing kids into a meetingand knowing that it's a mature
space? Excellent question.
So in the beginning, when I started bringing my kids to
meetings, I would hook them up with, with an iPod, whatever, so
they can watch movies and listento music and I would they'd be

(01:04:41):
in the hallway. And thing is, I had to worry
about my recovery because my wife was actually going to
school. Yeah.
Now, when the beginning, when wewere had, when they were really
super small, my wife and I were alternate nights.
So we did that. So we did.
So she would have three meetingsa week and I would have three
meetings a week, but and the when the kids got older and I
like, like really, I'm going to get to a meeting.
And she was doing school work every night.

(01:05:02):
I like I said, I would actually bring him to a meeting and it
was sit in the hallway. But then my son said to me, hey,
dad. And he was like maybe 10 years
old. I'd like to listen to a meeting.
I'm like, OK, sure. So he was in the hallway.
Actually, it was at Awano. He was listening.
He was in the hallway listening and my daughter was doing her
thing and on the whole ride homehe had that newcomer high Dad

(01:05:26):
wasn't a great when when Jeremy went, he went to go face up his
he was making amends for himselfand he was turning himself in
and the warrant for his arrest expired.
That was awesome. I'm like, who is this person?
Like, do you have a sponsor? What's going on?
But no, he was like. Where's the McDonald's drive
thru right now? What?
Do you want? But yeah, he was like, and he

(01:05:47):
really got into he got into that.
So he started listening and my daughter did the same thing.
Now, there was one time that wasreally bad and this person
shared in a meeting and this person had was dropping the F
bombs. Every other word was saying a
lot of negative stuff, lot of stuff that was in my person, my

(01:06:09):
personal being just inappropriate.
You know, it was a mess saying the word, saying she was saying
the word. You know, I I was after the
man's Dick and all that she was and after the meeting, it was
just my son with me. That night, after the meeting,
we walked outside and. Nothing on that drive home.
Well, actually, here's what happened.
It was a few, few of the people at that meeting came outside

(01:06:29):
with us after the meeting, and they asked my son, hey, are you
OK What we're saying here? And my son said, and I am not
kidding. He goes, you know something?
She's just going through a lot of anger right now, 10 years
old. I was like, wow, yeah, I was.
So I was very. So it was just like, it was like

(01:06:50):
more of an understanding. Yeah.
It was like something she's going through a lot.
Of 10. Yeah, yeah.
So it's. Like an old soul sort of thing,
right? There he is, he is, but I think
both my kids are which are great, but I was and from that
night I was actually going. I need to like start working
again, maybe not going as many meetings staying home, but I but

(01:07:12):
I even down and I talked to my kids about it and they were the
worst thing. They hated.
They did not like about meetingswere people go walking through
the smoke outside after a meeting.
That was the most negative thing.
I'm like they were like, dad, Wedon't like the smoke part.
I'm like, OK, we'll just walk onthrough hold your breath and
that was it. But outside of that, we don't.
Like the? Smoke, they were cool, but but

(01:07:32):
they got their knowledge about what could happen in the rooms,
right? And they knew about my wife and
I due to the fact that, you know, I shared with them, but
they know what happens and they have, they've actually
established some relationships in the rooms, which is kind of
cool. And they know about NA if they
ever go down that road, but I really don't see them going.
They're so delight weights. But I mean, if anything, you

(01:07:53):
know, they'll go to therapy for other reasons, but that's
besides the point. But yeah, but, but you know
everyone. Can understand why my dad is so
happy all the time. I mean, everyone has their
opinion. The one that some people like.
I'm never gonna take my kids to me.
And they're like, I don't blame you.
Yeah, no. I mean.
Yeah, and and like. I don't blame people for taking
that. I understand the situation, it's
just. Like how you navigate.
Yeah, how do you navigate? I know, I just feel like I think

(01:08:14):
the support, not just from me but from the people in the rooms
also was a huge thing. Bring people in.
Don't do it by yourself. Yeah, that's how you do it.
And you and you get together andyou can talk to your kids that
way, 'cause it's a, it's a new road.
Yeah. I never thought I would ever be
down. Yeah.
All right. I'd like to answer that, Eric,
Obviously my son is 3. So you know his his cognition of

(01:08:38):
the the whole scenario. I haven't brought him to a
meeting yet. I haven't had to, but I'm not
against it because just like yousaid, like that, being exposed
to a level of emotional intelligence at, you know, a
younger age. And I think it gives kids a more
realistic view of both sides, addiction and recovery, and not

(01:09:00):
just what they're told in school, but in a DARE program,
which I think is a complete. Failure.
Dare. Dare failed us.
Yeah, it's like it. Is a complete abject failure and
it's just not realistic. It's just like, just say no.
And it's just like, but why? This looks awesome.
I mean, this guy has a Corvette and he's smoking a cigarette
with two chicks like that other guy's like an accountant.

(01:09:21):
No, but like I've also seen likea lot of successes because, you
know, these kids are seeing, youknow, grown men hug each other
and it's not something that they're necessarily exposed to
otherwise. And yeah, these kids learn a,
that there's somewhere they can go there.
There's like they're not alone and there's a place to go.

(01:09:41):
And if, if a kid is using at, yeah, I don't know, 12 or 13,
despite seeing that they still have that opportunity to, I
don't know, have an Ave. of help.
And yeah, I, I, I thought, I think it's a great thing.
I, I don't, I don't see it one way or the other.
And that I love when parents responsibly bring their kids

(01:10:05):
when they're running amok. I'm like, come on, get it, Get
a. Hold of You love kids, you love
kids. Yeah, I love kids in general,
but you know, like Sabrina is taking her kids and just like.
We but there are the kids that like use it as I mean, I've
babysat kids at meetings before where they're just like, it's
like, is anyone going to like pay attention to these two kids
in the back? Like, you know, like there is
that sort of responsibility of like.

(01:10:28):
The illnesses on the parents to to do it in a in a respectful
and responsible manner, but whenthey do I, I think it's a win
win situation. Yep, I agree.
All right. My final question, Bum, bum,
bum, bum. You've got to be one of the
happiest people I've ever met. In Narcotics Anonymous.

(01:10:49):
I, I've just, I mean, I've knownyou for a decade now and you're
always this happy, you're alwaysthis bubbly.
So, you know, after, you know, 37 years of recovery, how do
you, you know, keep gratitude and happiness at the forefront
and exude it on a daily basis? Happy wife, happy life.

(01:11:10):
Oh yeah. That's true.
She said she was going to listen, That's that's why.
Oh, yeah, there you go. Yeah, I had to throw that out
there. But you know, I grew up in a
household and I was growing up my whole life miserable and it
took a it was exhausting. It was exhausting.
And I think, you know, the firstthing I'll foremost is I had to
confront a lot of stuff in the happiness of it all and not in

(01:11:31):
happiness, but in the craziness of it all.
And, and I think the bottom lineis through step work, actually
has helped me become the person who I am also letting things go.
You know, it's, it's so much work to hold on to that stuff.
And it's, it's miserable. And I feel exhausted at the end
of the day or even at the end ofthe week or end of the month.
I mean, because I was like I said, I was taught those tools

(01:11:53):
early on. Hold on to it, hold on to it.
But it's not letting it go doingthe step work.
And also I've actually, I don't know, I look at my
accomplishments in my life, you know, I actually, I went back to
school and got a degree and I took a risk.
So, you know, when I take those risks, those, those risks that
actually, I'm not talking about taking risks.

(01:12:13):
Let's see if I can go to a bar and like calculated risks, you
know, like I feel good. And The thing is, if I took AI,
rather I would regret it if I didn't take the risk of going
back to school, of actually taking the risk of falling in
love, to take the risk of havingchildren, all that stuff and
have a career that I have and the friendships that I have
going in, I feel, I feel very happy.

(01:12:35):
And I think it also is because Isurround myself that with people
that are about what I'm about. And I find that to be very
important. You know, I might have some
people in my life that actually get depressed once in a while or
something like that. And that's OK.
I can be there for them. But when I love people, I really
do. I love going out there and, and
I like hugging people and talking to them and see what's

(01:12:56):
going on and I share what's going on with me and see what's
going on with that. But it's, it's fantastic.
I never thought I would be here,you know, and, and also I'm very
happy. I and that maybe I it's a bad
thing, but I compare myself liketo my family who they're not the
happiest. And I see myself, if I didn't

(01:13:18):
have the program of where I am today, I see myself where I
would be gossiping, being very negative, holding on to the
resentments, yelling at the top of their lungs, being talked at
rather than talk to. And they're in my life for the
reason of where I am today, which is much happier, which I

(01:13:38):
love being around people, like Isaid.
And I'm very grateful. Oh my gosh, I am so grateful for
that, for the blessings that I have in my life.
I consider myself very lucky formy relationships, but it does,
it takes work. It definitely takes work.
And I, I don't regret it. That's something else.
I used to regret everything all the time.

(01:13:59):
And I guess it's just that different type of thinking.
But I just know for me, it takestime to do what I need to do to
get to where I am today. I, I do love the fact that I'm
able to continue with this, to actually continue going to
meetings and just to be, just toshow up.
You know, I'm not the kind of person that goes there and

(01:14:21):
preaches anything someone said to me, Well, what, how do you
share a good message? I said, just be honest.
That's all. You don't have to quote anything
out of the book. And you know, for me, I just,
I'm very simple. I sit down and I talk and I talk
about me and it feels refreshing.
And also it's about also just I I love giving back.

(01:14:41):
I do I have an H and I commitment, you know, and I
never thought I would actually, I didn't think I was worthy of
it because people, because I never been to treatment or jail
or anything like that or arrested.
And they were like, but Howard, you have the bandwidth do it.
I'm like, and I've been doing itfor four years now, which is
awesome. But but but that's I just I just
I just love my life. I never thought I would and I

(01:15:03):
love looking myself in the mirror and I actually love
myself today and I never thought, never thought I would
be here. So things are cool.
Thanks. All right, All right.
Awesome job, man. So we would like to thank our
guest Howard for joining us today.
Thank you. Absolutely, man.
Great job. One last quick minute talking to
anybody out there struggling, need to hear message folk.

(01:15:23):
What do you have to say directlyto them?
Yeah, there's, you never have todo this alone.
Always ask for help. And that's the biggest hurdle I
found for me it was always asking for help and get help
anywhere you can. Yep, from people that you trust
or even, you know, people you don't trust.
I'm sure there's a lot of 1800 numbers out there that can,
people can help. Oh yeah.
You know, and don't feel you have to do this ever, ever

(01:15:45):
alone. And, you know, if you ever see
me in a meeting somewhere, please come up and say hi.
Yeah. You know, it's, I'm very
receptive and I like to talk to people and I'm always looking to
expand my network. Yeah.
Yeah. If you're ever in yeah, Western
Maryland, and you see the smiliest dude in the middle,
it's probably Howard. Just that.
Are you that guy from Yes I am. I'm the guy who's old and looks
young. That's me.
Yeah. There you go.

(01:16:06):
All right, everybody, thank you for joining us once again.
I wow. Did you use blank?
My yeah, my brain crashed, traincrashed.
Thank you for joining us. Go to all our social media
outlets Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, YouTube like share,
subscribe please become part of the Patreon because we need help

(01:16:27):
keeping the mics on as we are self supporting, but most
importantly everybody out there.Stay safe and stay clean.

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Howard S. - God Speaks Through People

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Howard S. - God Speaks Through People