Tara & Kat - Sponsorship - Podcast Recovery

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:03):
Welcome back to Podcast Recovery, everyone.
We are your hosts. David O.
And Eric V God, he's so he. Hated draw that out so badly.
Such a Dick. Yeah, anyway, we are gathered
here today like this is a marriage.
With our sponsorship is like a marriage, right, You know?
Yeah, it's like a marriage. We.

(00:23):
Actually have little bracelets too with Tara and Kat.
How are you guys doing today? Well, we're well.
We're well. OK, dude, OK.
That sounds that's tentative. You know, woke up quite
abruptly. Yes.
Cat before me because my maintenance apartment
maintenance people decided to show up unannounced and

(00:44):
unexpectedly. Yeah.
So they love to just pound on the door like it's their right
to just come in, you know? Yeah.
So for what purpose? Oh, for a reason.
Like. They're the guy knocked on the
door and then he told me there was a hole behind a door they
wanted to inspect and. There are only so many doors.

(01:04):
Which door? Either and I'm me and don't.
I don't trust that man. Yeah.
Yeah, no. No, I I'm sorry you have a hole
behind. Your door, a hole behind your.
Door. Yeah, like a.
And this is not like it's not like you know, some penthouse,
you know, with multiple rooms. It's like, no, there's really

(01:25):
just two rooms. Everything else is like, I mean,
there's it's like a one room, yes, a one bedroom and A1, like
there's only so many doors. So I have no idea because
they're supposed to e-mail. Was there a hole behind the
door? Not that I'm aware of.
I duct taped up one of the doorslike it's completely covered in
duct tape. That's a whole nother story, but
yeah. Why wait?

(01:46):
Whoa, That's something I would do.
Why did you do that? That is something you.
Would do there right for punk rock, no?
There you go, just left it there.
I know I'd love to say that. No, it's because like, you know
how doors, when they've been beaten in so many times, will
like it's that thing of when it's off the right.

(02:07):
No, I'm not sure. I watched a lot of Stefan off of
SNL last night and so I'm gonna say like it's that thing of when
the door has been beaten in so many times.
Stefan's the Bill Hader character.
Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.
Right, right, right. Yeah.
So yeah, so like that thing of when the door is off the the

(02:31):
frame so, so much that it's likenot it's so off.
So I just duct taped it because I didn't feel like weather
stripping it to the NTH degree. OK.
Yeah. Yeah.
Well. That makes.
Sense. Yeah, that's.
Fine, yeah, 'cause otherwise I was smelling weed like all the
time, 'cause people just do thatin my it.
Is legal now. So yeah, yeah.

(02:54):
Go to New York. I mean, that's all you smell.
Well, the reason we are here today with Cat and Tara is
because they are sponsy and sponsor and we're going to talk
about, you know, sponsorship. And I actually brought out the
Narcotics Anonymous sponsorship pamphlet.
Which, well, let's, let's first before we we dive in, you know,
we, we've had, we had Tara, we had you on a few weeks ago.

(03:16):
But let's let's it like, I don'tknow.
Yeah. A little bit about you got it.
You got it. Yeah.
I did OK. Yeah.
Where? Are you from Kat?
That's easy and hard to answer. I'm from everywhere but for the
past like 3:00-ish years in the Catonsville area.
Right now I live in College Park, but I'm about to move back
to closer Owings Mills I guess. Where are you originally born?

(03:41):
New Mexico. Oh, all right.
OK. Yeah.
How'd you get here? So OK, the easiest way here.
Let me ask you 2 two more short answer questions and I'm gonna
turn it over to you for a minute.
When were you first introduced to recovery?
I was first introduced to recovery right before I went to

(04:06):
rehab, which was it's 2025, so Iguess in 2022 and how much?
Clean time do you have? I have next month on the 13th.
It'll be 11 months all right. I'm going to give you. 15

(04:26):
minutes. Well, yeah. 10 to 15 minutes
short. Story How did you get from New
Mexico to here as fast as possible?
OK, sponsorship. So my I have two sisters.
This is the fastest way to explain it.
She was born in Delaware, I was New Mexico.
Little sister was Arkansas. And I've been in almost all 50

(04:47):
states originally because my parents were in the military and
then got divorced through an entire saga and then got to
Maryland when I was 15. And the rest of the states, I
was, I'm 23, OK, Got to the restof all the state visits
basically through various roundsof treatment and residentials

(05:13):
and everything. And then so I guess to hear,
yeah, 2022, right before I went to rehab, I had gotten home
after being 8 months and inpatient to residential, all of
that. And then the first night I was
home I used and the end of that was like 8 months later.

(05:38):
What was your drug of choice? Everything.
Fair enough. Like I yeah, yeah, stuck to like
opiates and amphetamines 'cause I lived in a pharmacy, like a
biopharmacy, no. No, Eric, I was just like, I was

(06:00):
like, this is a dream that I hadon my way.
Back to you. Yeah, end of it.
I googled meetings near me and Iwent to this church and nobody
was there. I tried a second time, nobody
was there. And.
Was this after COVID? It was 2022, dingbat.

(06:22):
Yeah, so, well, COVID fucked everything up for meetings.
You know, it makes it's sad. She's trying to find a meeting.
It is. Sad.
It's sad. Well.
It was like, I like, I looked itup and I was, my house was awful
to live in and I went there and there was no one there and tried
twice. And then I guess like a month or

(06:43):
two later, my mom gave me two choices, take me to court for
conservatorship or go to rehab. And so I said I, you know, like
human rights that are mine. So I went to rehab
conservatorships. Not cool.
And then I after 33 days left rehab to recovery house and have

(07:07):
moved like been moved out like ever since.
And that's kind of the easiest way to say how I got here
because I popped like 4 different houses recovery wise
and then three individual wise. OK, cool.
All right, now to sponsorship. How did you come to choose

(07:29):
Tehran? I don't rehab, I got went to a
treatment like IOP facility and I was introduced to her over
FaceTime on a single night. Nice, after sharing like my
story in the group or whatever, or at least an intro to it and

(07:50):
then after that I think how manymonths passed.
Oh, quite a few I don't. Remember, like a lot.
I can't either. I shared a meeting and she came
up to me. I was like me new clean is not
very approachable. That's most people, yeah.
We're like Ferrell and. Yeah.

(08:13):
And like I didn't even super recognize that I wasn't super
approachable. It was just everything was over
stimulating. And I don't even like my like
how much time I like have right now, which by the way is the
longest I've ever had. Like don't know how to easily

(08:39):
talk to people and when I try toshorten anything it does sound
like this. Like super choppy and like I'm
buffering. That's OK.
I love Tarantino. Yeah.
I. Don't like that?
Yeah. And that's great.
I like that you you described itas buffering.
Yeah, yeah. There's this great phone case I
was gonna get that's literally acat, and it's got the little

(09:03):
computer like that. Oh, the dial.
Yeah. And then it says buffering, and
it's like the cat has. And then there's like a bunch of
math symbols and like words and it's like that.
Yeah. Yeah.
All. The all going on.
And so, yeah, it took a minute. And so basically what I'm trying
to say is that she like introduced herself to me a

(09:27):
second time and it was like perfect, because I was on the
end of looking for a new sponsoranyway and we had so much in
common. How many sponsors did you have
you had? Just one other one.
Just one other. OK, yeah.
Was it a real sponsor or was it like a a trainee sponsor?

(09:50):
Oh, that's a fair question. It was a real sponsor, OK.
It was just like we related too hard on the way.
I think we internally talked to ourselves.
That was the like I wrote on step one for over and over.
I relapsed a bunch and when I compare like the first two times

(10:15):
I got over halfway through the questions to just like the last
time I did it when Terra became my sponsor, it's just vastly
different. Like I was never like redirected
because me and my first sponsor,I think we shared like just our
internal dialogue like to similarly without any type of
reframing. And I'm not super nice to myself

(10:39):
when like because a big part of like I don't know how he's
identified like with my store inmicro VS just I didn't have a
whole bunch of denial. And so step one for me was like,
yeah, I know I have a problem. Like I was like a messy person.
That's why I'm here. 69 questions of.

(11:03):
Oh yeah. God I.
Like I know I've always thought that like the the first
question, the the first step, like I really think they should
shorten it just to like give people some.
Like, I like that it's. So much some momentum.
I'm in, so I'm in. I'm in your camp, Eric.
But I recognize that some people, you know, would prefer

(11:24):
the other and the survey that just so the Nas just put out a
survey. I see it both ways.
Yeah. And they, they're like, we've
heard a lot of feedback about simplifying and condensing.
Because that. Because that.
Well, if you get, if you get ridof the, we're doing this right
now. We're going through the step
working guide. Yeah, there's a.
Podcast episode series where we're going to go through every

(11:45):
question and then. I I plan on, I don't know if
I'll ever get up to speed with the podcast, but just so you
know, I, I've got it like I've got I'm checking out, I'm
checking the things and I'm thank you going backward and
hopefully all you're just. Buttering us up and.
Oh gosh, no I'm not. I promise I am trying cuz I I'm
really curious like all you havesuch a backlog though, it's

(12:06):
intimidating. Oh yeah.
I think we're up to like 250. Episode Yeah.
Oh my gosh. That's amazing.
It's amazing 20. 18, yeah. Yeah, and I've been hearing
about the podcast since then. So yeah, it's amazing, yeah.
But yeah, like, just to like, get it, get the ball rolling for
people, I think would be a better way to go about it.

(12:26):
But this is my opinion. Yeah, we'll go around.
How did you get your sponsor? OK, so I had a first sponsor
that is not my sponsor any longer and then sponsors have
you. So there was a period between
that sponsor and the current sponsor where I think I went
through four or five. Yeah, cuz I was, you know, at

(12:48):
that point I sounds. Really Judgy.
Eric, sorry. Judge away.
Judge away, that's totally fine.No, it was like it was this, you
know, pre COVID time where I wasin between rounds of steps and I
was doing, I actually went over to a A cuz I wanted not to, to
go to the meetings of a A even though that would have been

(13:11):
fine. Well, it would have been totally
fine. You know, don't take.
From me, you wanted to work the steps their way.
I wanted to work the steps theirway.
I wanted to learn why I why I I had.
Absolutely. Preconceived notions and why
they were wrong about the big books.
So I decided to read that. And yeah, so I was doing that

(13:31):
for a minute. I was working with my friend
Brian, who as a sponsor. Yeah.
Cool. Yep.
And I was not in a a, but like I'm saying, I did.
Yeah. I had male sponsors for a
minute. That's cool.
And then I had So anyway, my first sponsor.
I found her because I was told to go ask her by someone nice.

(13:56):
Nice. Yeah.
Anyway, I was told to go ask her.
And, you know, that was a, it wasn't a bad move.
It was someone that was a friendof mine, you know, who helped me
get in the rooms at all. And we worked together for six
or seven years. So that was a a good
relationship, but unfortunately,like similar to what catches

(14:19):
shared, we had some ways in which we were similar and you
know, we just sort of grew apart.
So I would it turned out I was kind of being deceitful.
I was like harboring, not, not like, yeah, it was like in full.
On fully truthful. Yeah, it was an eating disorder
which I talked about last time, right?
So I was dealing with eating disorders and I was scared to

(14:40):
tell her I had I had like. Coheed and Camry.
Tattoos. It sure is.
I just got I didn't know y'all were fans.
Yeah, I so I'm like, I've seen him live two or three times.
Feathers is one of fantastic lives.
I've never, I've never, I've never gotten into their studio
Shit, I sure. Feathers is a top five song for.
Me. Oh, feathers.
OK, yeah. So this is the.

(15:00):
This is like obviously the key. Work logo.
No, but I I like. Yeah, but they are mixed genre.
I like the concept of like Coheed how they're yes they are
concept. Bands, yes, which is cool.
Like the key work for instance is literally like planets and
don't they? Have like.
Oh, they're bring. Stuff too.
We are digressing so far. I know, fantastic tattoo.

(15:21):
Thank you. Good job, David.
I could talk about Coheed for too long.
So Coed podcast. No, I'm just kidding.
OK. Yep, I've gone 7:00 after the
pod. Sure, sure, sure.
OK, so anyway, that point being that she, you know, politely,
gently let me know that she thought I should find anyone at
about 6:00 or seven years. And yes, my abandonment issues

(15:43):
were strong so then I started skipping SO.
Your sponsor suggested. It yes.
And I was like, like. Interesting.
Like the third step, you know, we have to make the decision.
Yeah, I was like, and pretty much anytime someone, yeah,
yeah, yeah, yeah. Pretty much anytime the
decision. I've realized that's such a
pattern. You know, like I don't have the
types of authority issues where I'm like, you know, when I was

(16:07):
locked up, I was like teacher's pet.
I'm like, Cos please love me, I didn't do anything wrong.
Can we be besties? Like I'm not always the rebel
against authority, but yeah, if you tell me that.
Once I was you. Made that decision.
I was the best lap dog ever, right?
Because I'm like, what's the point in fighting?
At this exactly you. Have me in in handcuffs.

(16:27):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, right. So anyway, she gently suggested,
you know, and so I moved on, butI ended up with a sponsor I have
now who I had, you know, wanted for so long.
I just was scared to ask. And she's actually the Sponsi.
They were Sponsi sisters, so I'dknown her for years.
And Pauline, she's down in Florida now, but she was here

(16:50):
for most of her recovery. She has over 40 years clean.
Yeah. And and she got clean at the
same age that I did, which is 21.
And yeah, it was just amazing tostart working with her.
She is where I got the like Cat was mentioning about reframing

(17:13):
the negative internal dialogue, and I feel like that really
started to change for me when I started working with my current
sponsor. So nice.
Yeah. Oh, yeah.
What about you, Eric? How did you, how did you come
to? Is Eric your first sponsor or is
Tim your first sponsor? Tim.
Tim is my only sponsor that has ever had Wow.
So I remember it was between Timand Herb.

(17:37):
That was always like the two people I was looking at and Tim,
you know, I guess kind of had Tim.
Tim and I were kind of similar. I liked his pragmatic view of
recovery so I could get behind alot of what Tim was talking

(17:57):
about. And like I, you know, Tim had
ideally what more or less what Iwanted compared to other people,
right? Like he had like the 2.5 kids in
the house and like the blah blahblah bullshit of like life dude.
I love Tim. Tim, I love that term.
Blah blah blah bullshit. So like.

(18:18):
Yeah, it's so I, I asked him to be my sponsor and then, you
know, I worked the steps with him two times, once the step
working guide and once like an, a, a hybrid way and then we kind
of just fell off. So he moved.
He moved and then, you know, I went back out a few times.

(18:39):
So, you know, we kind of like, and we have connected since
then. But like he, you know, even
Matt's not his sponsee anymore. Matt moved on.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think that says a lot
about where Tim is. Like at least with this area is
if if Matt's not even. I mean, you move, you move a
couple hours away. You know, it becomes hard.

(19:00):
Yeah. So like, you know, if I were to
ever get another sponsor, I don't, I I'd be picky again.
But yeah, at the moment, you know, well, I guess it's still
Tim. You know, neither of us have
fired each other, so I would sayit's still Tim, but yeah.
And you know, you know, the way I got to mine, my first sponsor

(19:23):
was a little overbearing for thetime could.
I call him a douche. I was gonna say we're being
honest, yes. Yes.
Can I call? Him a douche I was.
From a wooden perspective. Really a douche.
His rule early in recovery was that I had to call him every day
for I think it was 90 days. That sounds like codependency to

(19:43):
me. Hello.
It was. Hello.
Yeah. And also I was, I started
culinary school and like I I wasjust trying to, you know, really
change my life as much as possible.
And it it just became a lot. And like at like day 40 or 45,
like I dropped the ball and I forgot to call him.
He was hey. And he wouldn't let me start
steps until that 90 days was through.

(20:06):
And at day 40, I didn't call himone day.
And he and like, dude, the conversations were like so
stupid someday. He was like, how was your day?
I was like, fine. He was like, do you feel like
using drug? No.
You were like a resentful child.I was like, how was school
today? And it was like it was fine.
Oh. My God, I.
Talked to and, and so like day 40I like dropped the ball,
didn't call him. So I called him the next day.

(20:27):
I was like, yeah, sorry I didn'tcall you.
He was like, all right, we got to start over and I was like.
Oh my God. I.
Was like no. Yeah, good.
For you I was like, I wanna cuz.I was like cuz at that point I
had three months clean at that point and I was like, I want to
work steps like I want, I want to get to.
This point. So.
Like gatekeeping in sponsorship.Hello.

(20:49):
Yeah, that's essentially what was.
Happening in the world. And and I wasn't about it.
So I was like, OK, you know, I'mgoing to move on to, you know,
my next, the next dude that I had, which was Tyler, who's no
longer with us. We well, he was murdered.
Oh. My God.
Yeah, Tyler. The Columbia Mall.
The Zoomies, yeah, at. The Serenity Center, seeing his

(21:12):
black yeah, that was my second sponsor worked 1-2 and part of
three with him and. Rest in peace, Sir.
Yeah, that was a fucking bummer.And then like, right, I think at
like 10 or 11 months, his girlfriend at the time like went

(21:32):
out and like there was just likesome friction with her.
And I was like, well, if I have friction with her, I don't want
to have friction with him. So I was like, let me move on to
Herb. So I moved on to Herb, who I
have had for the last 12 years, so.
That's awesome. So it all worked out, but yeah.
I'm really glad you shared that,David, because yeah, I was, I

(21:54):
was definitely being, you know, like just polite about
something. No, it's just you.
You sort of, you know, laid it out on the table with a little
more forthcoming about, like, the nature of what went wrong
and. Yeah.
Like and 'cause if I'm not naming names, I'm not saying who
the person is. Yeah, I'm just so that way

(22:17):
they're insulated. Yeah.
Are you? Talking about your first
sponsor, yes, I'll say the. Name no you.
Won't. We're gonna be we're gonna be
nice today, Erica. We're gonna be different.
I still have a huge assignment against him, but.
I know you do, and that's why we're going to be nice.
But yeah, like. Things go wrong in sponsorship
relationships, and it's really important for, you know, like I

(22:40):
could have recognized years before my sponsor had gently
suggested not it wasn't a suggestion.
And it was very clear, like, we can't do this anymore, which
props to her, you know, like, I'm grateful that she made that
because she was not wrong. Yeah.
It's just that I could have beenforthcoming 3 years before that.
Yeah, you know, I mean, as addicts, I think we have all

(23:01):
stayed in, you know. Or.
Situation ships way past their fucking expiration.
Right. And that's the thing, like with
codependency, 'cause it became codependent in the sense that,
and I started it, I feel becauseI felt like I owed her
something. I felt my, my, you know,
tendency to stay in something way past the expiration date.

(23:26):
It's a loyalty. It's always loyalty, right?
This strong and pervasive sense of yeah, I am indebted to you.
It's very common in that first to sacrifice ourselves, yes, for
the betterment. It's one of those subtle forms
of self destruction that we do, yeah.
Yeah, because. Covert self destruction.
Yeah, it's, you know, yeah. It's that covert altruism or

(23:50):
denial altruism? But we have great intentions,
we're just not for ourselves, hardly ever.
All right, let's get into sponsorship.
What? Are we going to read here?
I'll read the opening to this. So this is out of the NAIP #11
Sponsorship revised One of the first suggestions many of us

(24:11):
here when we begin to attend NA meetings is to get a sponsor.
As newcomers, we may not understand what this means.
What is a sponsor? How do we get and use one?
Where do we find one? This pamphlet is intended to
serve as a brief introduction tosponsorship.
Our basic text tells us that theheart of of NA beats with two
addicts when 2 addicts share their recovery and sponsorship

(24:34):
is simply one addict helping another.
The two way St. of sponsorship is a loving, spiritual and
compassionate relationship that helps both the sponsor and
sponsee. So the first question is here.
Who is a sponsor? Let's go around and you know,
let's answer it like who is the sponsor?
I guess I'll start. Yeah, just like it said, like

(24:57):
pretty simply, somebody that is going to guide you in the right,
in the right direction of finding a new way of life
spiritually, you know, psychologically and you know,
because we're getting off of drugs physically as well.

(25:17):
And just somebody who has an experience that you need help
with. It's honestly just going to
somebody and saying, I don't know how to do this.
I know you do. Can you show me the way?
And that's what I got. What's your what's your answer
to that, Eric, who is a sponsor?A sponsor is a steward, so it's
it's someone you know who will lead you like through but might

(25:43):
not necessarily like hold your hand right.
They're they're going to guide you and they're going to give
you everything that you need, but they aren't going to like be
the driving force. Like that's still, that's still
with you. So that's, I think that's kind
of how I would describe it as like more of like a steward.

(26:05):
Yeah. What?
About you Who is the sponsor? To me, a sponsor is what you all
just said, but I'm going to try to add something to it, I guess,
which is that like a sponsor is going to reflect on you, the you

(26:28):
know, the best of their ability on your assets.
You know, they're going to show unconditional love, they're
going to show compassion. And some of those, you know,
just embody the spiritual principles.
To be a like a bit of a a mirrorto the sponsee is to like all

(26:48):
those good things about them andnot in a codependent way, not in
a Co signing way to hold firm boundaries to show what that
looks like. You know, to be a good example
of of the program and what it can do, like what the steps
working the steps, how it can change person.
Now, of course the sponsi typically, depending on how long

(27:10):
they work together, they may notbe seeing them change a dramatic
in a dramatic way because they they may not know them from
their early recovery to later recovery, but they may, you
know. So anyway, I think that The
thing is that like, at least forme, defects don't go away.
So usually what does change is the way we work through them.

(27:34):
So a sponsor might be showing how how they changed by talking
through what's still happening in their head.
But, you know, to show like, to be able to demonstrate what is
it attraction, not promotion, Right.
And I think it's, yeah. A sponsor is someone who
embodies the program in the sense that they carry the
spiritual principles. And I'm glad you brought it up
like that, 'cause I, yeah, I'll,I'll say it, you know, just the

(27:57):
way I feel it. I despise White Horse sponsors.
What does that mean? What is that?
So somebody who is in their ivory, they are better.
Than Oh yeah, exactly they. Don't they never share their own
failures or inadequate? Like when they fall short,
they're like, I'm perfect. I'm living this amazing.
Program. It's like.
It's a lie. Bullshit.

(28:18):
Yeah, it's bullshit. And yeah, just that that sort of
night, I'm your night in shining.
Exactly. And I'm going to show you the
way. And it's like, no, I'd rather
you just be real. And be real, be like.
Hey, I'm a human. I fuck up too, yes, You know,
these are how I, these are some of the, the, the missteps I've
taken in my journey that you don't have to make.
Exactly, Yeah. To love that who's.

(28:40):
Sponsored to you. Besides all of that.
I know going last such 'cause you're like, oh, everybody said
all the you took my answer. Well, no, I just like that.
We'll snake draft it. Yeah, we'll be out.
With you a SEC. My brain's massive on metaphors.
And so it's just like, yeah, it's a mirror and like a

(29:01):
parallels, like, so this is my experience.
And this is like, yeah, experience, strengthen the hope
of the program encompassing the principles and how they do.
And then like for me, it's like,here's my day-to-day.
And we did like the steps. And so you know, like well the

(29:22):
steps I've done so far. What step are you on so far?
4. Fantastic, yeah.
And so you and like my she knowslike most of my story and
everything. And so it's like connecting all
the things and it's kind of whatI guess the redundancy in my
opinion of all the questions of step one are doing like, hey,

(29:45):
these are like I am really trying to make it clear of like
this is the problem we're tryingto identify.
And so it's doing that and drawing it to the sponsors
experience to what you're experiencing now.
And like the day-to-day, it's making the picture together.
Yeah. So if you're both standing in a

(30:05):
mirror and you're seeing the parallels.
I love the making the picture together.
Yeah, that's what's really cool.And I actually just wrote down
like a really good question justbased off what you're saying
because I like, I think a lot ofrecovery is, you know, for, you
know, analogous terms dealing with wounds.

(30:27):
And a sponsor very much in my opinion, has the the delicate
responsibility of looking at an open wound and figuring out how
to treat it. And so, and sometimes it's
opening old wounds and then figuring out how to like close
them back up in during your stepwork time.
So you're not just sending them out there within and and raw and

(30:51):
infected like right. So you know, how do you, what do
you think about like that? You know that nature of dealing,
trusting somebody to deal with your wounds.
I mean, that's why like the way she became my sponsor was so
great because like I got clean and after of just a really long

(31:15):
time of before not being met where I'm at or not and people
not knowing how and then gettingclean and then that's still like
playing out as I don't know, I'mtrying to do something
different. She met me where I was at.
I couldn't talk to people so shetalked to me and like with no

(31:37):
conditions and I in meaning as Isay this lot like I have
commitment issues with breathinglike I'm cool.
Nice. I have commitment issues with.
Breathing. Yeah, that's.
Very true. I do.
And when I say I always get worried that people are going to
be like, oh, so like you're Susan, I'm like, well, no, I

(31:58):
mean, I have been in the past and everything, but like
currently it's like, no, I like do things different today.
And I'm building like skills andlife on life terms and all that.
And like, I will still wake up and be like, not today, not
today. I what is this and how do I do
anything? And so like, she kind of did

(32:20):
what you described like really amazingly and I hadn't
experienced it before. You can cry.
I was worried I was going to crybecause my brain's been pressed
like all week. You're going to make David cry.
Shut up, dude. Crush.
But like, yeah, I'm, I'm glad you asked that question because

(32:44):
that really is how I started to define like sponsorship in
general. Because like me, when I got into
the rooms, I heard the saying that like I came in with
nothing. My version of coming in with
nothing was just like I had no skills like I experienced like
the degradation and I grew up like homeless in different areas

(33:06):
and stuff like that. But like my version of like the
in this time was just like I have been institutionalized for
so long. And so like I don't know how to
define friends. I like still today had to ask my
partner. So how do you give notice to a
landlord? Because I've never done that
before and like I'm enrolling inschool and like shit like that.
So like all of these things thatI just don't have the blueprint

(33:31):
for and like being met where I'mat is really and being able to
make the decision. That's what I like that she's
been like focused on that for months because it's so true.
Like if I can't see the thing I'm doing and knowing I'm the

(33:53):
one doing it, then like I eitherdon't have an answer or I do and
I'm angry about it, or I have commitment issues with
breathing. I'm like, well what's the point
if there's no autonomy? Like it doesn't make sense to
me. I'm glad, like I'm glad you
brought up that that power of decision because that's very

(34:13):
much in the first step. And the most powerful word in
there is were we were powerless.It's not that we are powerless.
We were, and now that like we'rechoosing a new way of life and
stepping forward with that, we're taking our power back.
But and people that scares people, you know, a lot of times
that scares people because, because we are so, and I just

(34:34):
think it's so paradoxical that on the one hand, you know, in
recovery in the rooms, I often hear the and I've, I've had the
same attitude, you know, in the past, sort of like on the one
hand it's, you know, you don't have any power, you can't have

(34:55):
any. And then on the other hand,
we're saying don't be black and white in your thinking.
Yeah. What the whole like?
Yeah. Am I supposed to have power or
not power? Yeah, well, you have you have
power sometimes and not other. Like if I share that my higher
self is, is often my higher power and I have multiple higher
powers. But if my higher self and it's
like, you know, you might still hear, I might still hear a gasp

(35:16):
in the room, a figurative gasp, you know, maybe not audibly, but
I can just feel the energy change.
Or I've had that happen where it's like people think you're
saying you're you're you are your higher power.
And I'm like, no, it's an unattainable version of me.
OK, Not it's just what I can believe in.
I can believe in that in this moment, you know, but it's.

(35:38):
I've always sort of taken it as like, like I literally see like
in my head like two different Spicer acts and one of them is
filled with all my spiritual principles and the other one is
filled with all my character defects and I can pick and
choose which I want to. Act I love.
That at any time and like my higher self wants to go for, you
know, I'm going to be compassionate and, you know,
loving and caring and generous. And then it's like, oh, but I'm

(36:02):
also going to lie a little. Bit and I cheat a little.
Bit and I'm going to be a Dick to people yeah so like the
spices are always there the spices of life are always
available I shoot for this one but in reality sometimes they
these come off the shelf and. And you went to culinary school.
So I just love. I didn't know that, by the way,
and that I'd love to talk with you about that.

(36:23):
Off camera as well. Or off.
Yeah. Anyway, that's awesome.
I love that metaphor. It's so good.
What about you, Eric? Opening and closing wounds with
a sponsor. I don't know if I don't know if
that happened, I can talk about it from a different perspective

(36:43):
like. Like literal wounds.
No, like like wounds from like, you know, my legs and like.
My. Actual wounds, yeah.
But I'm talking about like the mental part of it.
Like Tim when when I was with Tim, like as a sponsor, I I
treat it most, most of that as like academic.

(37:05):
I was way too into those books. I know he answered, so he went
through every single book and highlighted if it if If a
sentence ended in a question mark, he answered it.
Yeah, Oh. My God, that's wow.
So it's it's OD. In a as.
Well. It's too much.
I did it in multiple and smart in a AI have them all written
down. Just look at this room.
Do you think he has OTD? Yeah, I love that room.

(37:29):
I do too. Yeah, it's fantastic.
It's fantastic, but you're like something went wrong, somebody
had a day. Or a whole day we say it's.
More than a day. More than.
A day it's been a. While.
Don't get it twisted. So I think the best example of
like like healing a wound would be when I was in when I was in

(37:52):
treatment at Father Martin Ashley's, there was this
reverend there. He used to be like the guy who
ran things, but he got too old. So he just kind of like did
consulting work. So he had me write like 2
letters, one to my parents aboutmy limb lengthening surgeries
and then one to my dead friend to like kind of heal those

(38:15):
wounds. Oh hi Jet.
And then heal those wounds of like, you know what that of
those feelings and like those writing exercises, I feel like,
you know, those were the things that those were like 2 of my big
core issues and those, those really helped me kind of get
past that part of my life. And a bit like we're able to

(38:39):
start healing. The healing process was like
getting through those two things.
I'm. Going to be honest, I was really
skeptical with your answer when I started out and you actually
nailed it so. What can I say?
What can you say that's a good point, all right?
What does a sponsor do? Sponsors share their experience,

(39:00):
strength and hope with their sponses.
Some describe their sponsors sponsor as loving and
compassionate, someone that theycan count on to listen and
support them no matter what. Others value the objectivity and
detachment A sponsor can offer, relying on their direct and
honest input, even when it may be difficult to accept.
Still others turn to a sponsor mainly for guidance through the

(39:22):
12 steps. So starting with you, Kat, what
does a sponsor do? Lots of things.
No, but real quick, I'm going tointerject.
Eric, like he said that you knowsomebody at Father Martin's
Father Martin Ashley, a sponsor isn't always necessarily your

(39:44):
sponsor. Sometimes it's somebody in your
network that's sponsoring you inthat moment.
I'd say, I'd say Herb is. Herb has sponsored me before,
and he's almost sponsored, right?
Yeah, I mean, lots of people have sponsored me over the
years, like unofficially, like anybody who has experience that
like in. Whatever for your or if you're
told by your sponsor, call your grand sponsor or your sponsee

(40:07):
sister because I don't have exact experience in that, but
they do, yeah. Exactly.
Yeah. And and a sponsor very much has
to be a conduit towards the right answers, because no
sponsor has every answer to. Every exactly.
But what does a sponsor do? Back to cat?
The next questions are real fun.What does sponsor do?

(40:31):
For me, it was help that like Eric's last answer was like an
example. So we're going to go that route
and I guess tie it to like me where I was at, cause like one
of the best descriptions of likesponsorship for me is.

(40:56):
I like came in after like roundsof unrelated treatment and so
like very familiar with a lot ofthe stuff like concepts and the
steps and everything. And over the years, I started to
develop beliefs and being able to talk to Tara like about it

(41:19):
and have like her experience andfeedback and like basically
getting me to believe in myself well, with like the points of
pragmatism. And then like it's like unbiased

(41:43):
unconditional support is what a sponsor does because like.
Agree. She's not going to do it for me.
She's going to listen to, I guess like a set of
circumstances, story, whatever, and then we're going to do the
mirror parallels and then I'm going to go and do with that

(42:07):
whatever the fuck I choose to. Sorry.
Oh, you can purse. Fuck it up.
And like, whatever consequence and like that's good or bad,
it's just like what we tackle next.
And like, that's what a sponsor for like in my opinion does is
just like you're along for the ride with your guidance.

(42:30):
And it's like one of the greatest relationships, I think,
like I've ever had. Same, Yeah.
So what does Sponsor Sponsor do?I, I usually say I can answer
this question better by saying what they're what they don't do.
Oh, OK. But yeah, well, if you're fine

(42:51):
with that, yeah, I. Love that.
I'm not gonna list, you know, probably everything, but I will
say something that's become really critical, you know, like
to me in the over the years, andthat comes from the example of
my sponsor is a sponsor does nottell you what to do a sponsor
and and going backtracking a little bit to you talking about

(43:15):
opening and closing old wounds with a sponsor.
We have to remember as sponsors,most of us are not trained like
professionally to be able to do such things.
We have to intuit it. We have to do it from the
example we got from our sponsor and hope to God that we got a
good example, right? And it's not a great thing to
have a poor example and then to do that thing of I'm going to do

(43:38):
the opposite, which is very common.
It's easy to do because we're black and white thinkers, right?
You know, like, oh, my sponsor was always telling me everything
to do. Therefore I'm going to be super
lenient. Like, you know, we, we can't be,
we can do that if we choose. It just might cause some harm.
And so anyway, for me, like it is always been central to not,

(44:03):
which kind of sounds like I'm a hypocrite by saying, you know,
black and white, I'm not going to do something.
But like pretty if I had a rule is that I don't, I don't tell
anyone what to do because what right do I have?
And the third step teaches me that that is not going to work.
It's futile, like futile. It's, it's like the, the sponsee

(44:26):
must make their own choice and they must, you know, proceed
through that and I will be thereregardless.
I do not say what to do. And I also don't show what it
looks like to do conditional love.
Like that's not what we're here for.
We need to learn. I know for me, I need, I needed
to, to, to make mistakes. And that was part of the problem

(44:48):
with my first sponsor relationship was that I got to a
point of feeling so judged and feeling like every, everything
that I said, if I even brought up that my eating disorder was
creeping back in, it was, well, you're in relapse mode, you
know, and we're not, I'm not here to do that.
I'm not here to bring you more shame.
I'm not here to cause more wounds.

(45:10):
I am here to, like I said, reflect upon you, your assets.
I am not here to cosign either. So I am going to critically
think about situations, I'm going to try to practice
objectivity, and I'm going to. Sometimes, you know you have to
step on somebody's toes instead of walk on their grave.
Right, when I did health coaching, when I learned like I

(45:32):
feel like I even garnered some things from going through that
certification. So although, you know, there was
a long time I was sponsoring without any sort of professional
training, but, you know, eventually I did this health
coaching and I learned about open-ended questions and I
learned about active listening. And then then I saw all those
things in my current sponsor. I I saw her, you know, ask this

(45:54):
question and it be open-ended, which means they're you're not
leading someone to a definitive conclusion.
You're asked you're you're not priming.
You're the word I want is not coming to me.
But you're you're pulling for their.
Yeah. You know what they genuinely
feel. Yeah.
Fishing. Yeah.
And and then you may, you know, ask them another question to

(46:18):
help them critically think aboutthe situation.
And. Yeah.
And you are being what Katz saidis is how I I completely agree
about as far as what a sponsor does.
Yeah. Yeah.
And you know how I can answer that is pretty much like very,
I, I, I'm gonna do it like very directly like what my sponsor
does. My sponsor, I believe, is

(46:40):
probably the world's best devil's advocate.
He. Knows I will present a situation
to him and I'm like it could be this way or I could do this and
he's like well actually there's like 7 more.
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, and I was like, well, now
I'm I like I, I, I understand what you mean, but I'm slightly

(47:01):
more confused. And he's like, good.
And I'm like, what do you mean fucking good?
I was like, how is that good? And he was like, I'm not, he's
like, I'm not telling you what to do.
I'm just the biggest thing that my my sponsor does is, well, the
thing he has beaten in my end ofmy head for 12 years is be
prepared for the consequences because he's been around long
enough and he knows that sponseeisn't going to do whatever they

(47:22):
want to do. He's like, but be prepared for
the consequences. And that being that devil's and
showing that like, you know, litany of like consequences just
based off this one scenario. He's like, listen, you have to
be prepared for all of these like potential outcomes and
which was really important in 8:00 and 9:00 because you know,

(47:44):
if I'm coming to you with an amends, you do not have to take.
It exactly. But I have to be prepared for
whatever potential tongue lashing you give me because I
earned it. I can't fight back.
I can't feel like Oh well. But no, I'd I hurt and and like,
if it is your prerogative to hurt me back, that's your and I
just have to be like, OK, Yep, Yep.

(48:04):
And that's that's the situation.And like any and he's just
always preached, you know, policing my own thoughts and and
personal emotional and psychological vigilance.
And so, you know, that's what mysponsor does is he doesn't
provide me with answers. He provides me with tools for

(48:26):
the ability to potentially solvemy own problem.
And because I don't believe the point of sponsorship is they're
not a crutch for the rest of your life.
Yes. They're supposed to be building
you up to a level of autonomy, like you were saying that I love

(48:46):
you calling me everyday, but youknow, eight years down the road,
I don't think you need to be calling me.
Exactly. We, we, what have we done wrong
here that you, you still have tolean on me like spread your
wings and flies. Yes, yes, yes, yes.
So yeah, that I mean. That's amazing.
So well put. What does the sponsor do for
you, Eric? What does a sponsor do?

(49:11):
They're an instructor do they'rethe stops.
That's it, That's it. Yeah, OK, They're not my friend.
Yeah. I mean, here it says right here,
a sponsor's role is not a legal advisor, a banker, a parent, a
marriage counselor or a social worker, right?
Nor is a sponsor a therapist offering some sort of
professional advice. Now they can become a friend.

(49:32):
They can, they can change, But the core principle of a sponsor
is to work the program. Mm Hmm.
And to ensure that you, you know, work it to the best of
your ability or like that they help you work it to the best of
your ability, that's really up to you if you're going to work
it to the best of your. Ability.

(49:52):
True. You know.
Yeah, just just adding on that, Eric, like I, I when I totally
agree and I think that it's like, you know, once you're
thinking in terms of practicing the principles outside, right,
that's where the come it comes in that the sponsor is not just,

(50:13):
you know, what you're saying is not just right on paper and
hearing your answers right, but your like your answers you've
written to the step working guide or however you're working
the steps, but helping you applythe principles of the steps that
you just worked, you know what Imean?
Yeah, that's. Calling back to harkening back
to hey, remember when we were going over this, you know, like

(50:35):
a lot of a lot of additional discourse that it's like we had
this conversation about this thing maybe.
And so now you're able to say, hey, remember when we were
talking about this? Understanding is great,
application is the important. Right.
Like, do you think this is a pattern that, you know, is
likened to that time when we were discussing that question,

(50:56):
you know, and that that is a little bit, not an open-ended,
that's a little bit of leading to an answer, but you know.
Do you think maybe you were There's a?
Little bit of that. Sometimes there's a little.
Once in a while, yeah, you'd be like, you think maybe you were
doing something wrong here. And it's like, well.
Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah, exactly. What is the next question in the

(51:18):
pamphlet? No.
I. Think so?
All right. Now, the opposite end of that is
what does a sponsee do once? One suggestion is to have
regular contact with your sponsor in addition to phoning
our sponsor. Phoning our sponsor?
OK, we can arrange to meet up atmeetings.

(51:39):
Some sponsors will tell us how often they expect us to contact
them, while others, while othersdon't set those kinds of
requirements. If we cannot find a sponsor who
lives close to us, we can. We can look to technology or
mail to keep in touch regardlessof how we communicate.
With our sponsor, it's like my favorite pamphlet, right?

(52:01):
Staying clean and isolation. Yeah, true, I misread that.
Though it is important that we be honest and that we listen
with an open mind. So the question is, what does a
spawn C do? I also misread that pamphlet.
I thought, see, I thought you could stay clean in isolation.
Exactly like be. Isolating.
Isolated, right? Yeah, me too.
Yeah, me too, Eric. I Great minds.

(52:22):
Once I once I create my machine,I will get you a job as a
lighthouse keeper and you will just be so happy.
I just feel like I would end up in that movie with Robert
Patterson. Yeah.
You will, you will be you will end up like going to crazy and
be like absolutely, yes, that will be.
You. That movie is so good.

(52:43):
What does a sponsee do? I mean, a cheeky answer is make
a lot of mistakes. Yes.
No, but somebody's got to say it.
Yeah, yeah, a sponsee, you know,we're going to make mistakes.
And no, it's something you said that I, I truly love is meeting

(53:05):
you where you're at. Because one thing I think a lot
of recovery individuals and you know, practices is one of my one
of my best friends says, you know, when we're, we're coming
to the fellowships, we're we're washing ashore is what we're
doing and, and so. That's great.

(53:27):
It's, it's a great amount. And, you know, I see Inception,
I see, I, I see Leonardo DiCaprio just in the surf, just.
Oh my God. Beaten and battered like.
We just watched that. Just just looking for something,
a drink of water, something my Kingdom for a horse.
Yeah. They need that level of guidance
and. We've been adrift.

(53:48):
We've been adrift forever, and then all of a sudden people are
like, oh, cool, memorize this shit.
Get to work. You're gonna need to memorize
all of these little chants that we say in every meeting and then
come walk with us. Hold on.
What? So when we're at Donnie's
anniversary, I always look around the room to see who knows
the addict's prayer. Oh, I know because people don't

(54:08):
know the addict's prayer. So it always, I always get a
little tickled when I see like people fucking that up.
Yeah. But I don't know that prayer
well. Because it's it's intimidating
when you come into your first. It's some it's, you know, it's
like everybody help me say take my will in my recovery got take.
Yeah, at the at the. That's the third step, prayer.
No, no, no, no on the back of the.

(54:29):
On the back of the. Yeah.
So not take my will in my recovery.
No, it's that's third step. It's.
That no addicts recovery. Need ever fail.
Yeah. Need ever die, yeah.
That yeah, That's my gratitude. I didn't know it had a name.
My bad. OK, got it.
But see when I. Share with others, yeah, but.
Like, you know, we're taking these, you know, feral animals
or whatever, washing ashore and we're like here get up to speed

(54:51):
with what we're doing and we're not meeting them where they're
at. And like my sponsors talked
about that. He was, he was like, he tried to
work with people and like halfway through the first step,
he had to like, really like, youknow, ask kind of an
embarrassing question. It's like, can you read?
Yeah. And the dude couldn't.
He was like, not he was like, not really.
And he was like, I dropped out in like 6th grade.

(55:12):
I didn't. Read anything forever And he was
like, OK, then we're going to dothe steps orally.
He's like, I'm going to ask you a question and you're going to
respond. He was like, I'm not going to
ask you to read all this. And he but he was like also,
because it says in our literature, what is your problem
and how we can help you? He was like, OK, let's get you
some reading lessons. Let's let's let's start meeting
people where they're at in instead of automatically

(55:34):
assuming that they're, you know,raring and ready to go and and
and they're already half a half a, you know, avalanche down a
mountain with with momentum and into recovery because some
people are not like, yeah, there's.
Or they've dug the sand out and just climbed in that hole.
Exactly. Yeah.
And, and because, yeah, there's lots of abuse and trauma and all

(55:57):
sorts of things, and we all like, people are trying to
assume that everybody's coming here on an even.
Even. Oh, exactly.
And it's, and it's not the case.And I, I think all of us as
individuals and as fellowships need to do a better job of like
at least making an effort to find where people are and
meeting them there because we have that ability and they

(56:18):
don't, they necessarily don't. Exactly, but on you just use the
playing field sort of metaphor. That's one of my favorite ones,
thinking about people coming in,you know, on different playing,
like we may be on the same playing field, but I think about
a track, you know, like a, a running track and how when
runners are starting, they're not starting in a line.

(56:39):
It's staggered. And yes, there is the, the
finish line is also staggered orelse that would be unfair.
But there is no finish line. So we're all just staggered and
there's no finish line. But you have to remember that
that person behind you and that that that leads us into like
just being a fellowship member and making friends and not
judging our peers. And like not, oh gosh, you know,

(57:00):
early in recovery, I remember this sort of hierarchical
manifestations of our disease, like judgement based on like,
well, I'm not that bad because Idon't, you know, do this.
I don't sleep with a newcomer. I just steal.
They're sicker than. Others.
Yeah, like, no, no, they're bothmanifestations of the same
disease. So could you kindly?
Yeah, maybe you. Started on the outside track and

(57:24):
you're a little bit ahead like it it's okay like yeah when I
I've really come to hate that ohyou know some are sicker than
others like you smug prick fuck you like.
Sorry, there are some that are constitutionally incapable.
We it was inevitable that if we were talking about this topic,
we were going to you, you know, like go off on.
Little tangents and rants, you know, I mean, the the big book

(57:47):
does say some are constitutionally incapable,
yeah, of grasping this concept. And I do believe that is.
True, sadly, I like I do kind ofbelieve that like.
There are some people who simplycannot grasp the concept.
This. That's a whole.
That's a whole other tangent I'mnot going.
To go. I know, right?
I'll, I'll, you know, I'm going to go back to what a sponsee
does. You know, what should they do

(58:12):
and what they do are two different things.
Necessarily what a sponsor, what's a what a sponsor needs to
do is become and remain teachable, ask for help and
genuinely consider the legitimacy of the answer you're
receiving and cause for the first time, especially in early

(58:35):
recovery, it's answers we don't want.
Like my I. I think we've all experienced
this, like we call our sponsor, like really wanting them to
cosign a little bit of our bullshit.
But. We want this answer.
We want this answer and you don't get.
That answer and. You hang up the phone and you're
like, fuck them and then. I hung up on my first sponsor a
couple times. And then like 30 days later,

(58:56):
like everything they say like comes true and you're like,
fuck, they were right. But yeah, it's remaining
teachable. And being open to actually
making those changes is what a sponsee needs to do.
What about you, Eric? What does a sponsee do?
They work the fucking steps. Hell, you.
Take the fucking cotton out of their ears and.

(59:16):
Put it in the shut up, shut up, you're full of shit, shut up.
No, that's a no. That's a welcome.
I mean, I'm glad you've you're representing that flavor of
like. He's being an.
Ass I'm being, that's so not me,no.
No, I well, but still it's you know, you're I appreciate the
focus on the step. It is.
Focus on the step. Well, no, I mean, I have always.
I David. David does know this about me.

(59:39):
I've always given him and other people shit for not doing the
step. Yeah.
It took me. It took me 11.
Years and Donnie just finished at 15 and I was like, I've I'm
like, I've already gone through him twice.
What the fuck are you all doing like?
Somebody's gotta be that voice for real.
Yeah, You know what I mean? Just like, just like when some,
when you, when you're going through the 6th step, right?

(01:00:00):
And you have to get sick of yourself.
If you don't have people in yourlife like not necessarily your
sponsor because they may not be around to see every, every which
way that your, your, your spouseor your loved 1, you know, like
it's not their job. It should not be that your
spouse is taking your inventory.I mean, maybe it can be in some
very, very healthy relationships.
It's probably rare, but like, you need friends.

(01:00:22):
You need real friends who are going to actually help you get
sick of yourself. Yeah.
And. I I that's, that's a very
difficult balance. It's very difficult.
To cause yeah, I have expectations of the people
around me and not like expectations but like I want.
I try to limit my expectations. No, no, no.

(01:00:45):
But like I. But that's good.
I have a desire to see them succeed.
And when I see them not necessarily, you know, reaching
the potential I think they have,I will be like, hey, you know.
So none of my sponsees ever madeit to a year.
Did any of yours make it to a year, David?
One of them did, right? Yeah, yeah.
No, made it to two. Yeah, yeah.

(01:01:07):
I don't even like time. Like I don't even like thinking
about things in time, which is not to be like the person who's
like just for today's early. Recovery.
That's how the people think. No, I know it is.
And then meeting them where theyare at.
That's so important. I agree.
It's that's it's true. It's just I I don't even like I
just hate arbitrary. I'm like, you know that.
So when you said that, I just couldn't help but think about
the whole like don't get in a relationship till you have a

(01:01:31):
year. I just.
How can you learn how to be sorry?
What right do you have? Recovery unless you are in a
relationship. Exactly.
Like is it a good suggestion for?
Probably, I'd say the first six months probably it's probably a
good idea, but like is it a hardline?
No, no. And also like because it doesn't
matter those the same problems of interacting in a relationship

(01:01:52):
are going to come up whether youhave 30 days clean or 30.
Years and the bottom line is it's it's in my opinion, it's
underpinned by savior complex. Stop trying to save everyone.
You know, like I'm not predicting the future.
I'm not a psychic. I'm not capable of determining
whether or not you in a relationship at three months
means you're going to relapse. Yeah, but more than more
importantly, the reality. Is you could marry that person

(01:02:13):
and live. Happily ever after.
And that's possible. Right, and I, I love to say that
and it's like, you know, may notbe the most common scenario, but
the bottom line is to me is likethey either will stay clean or
they won't. I either would have stayed clean
or I, I wouldn't, you know, and it's like no one choosing
anything for me was gonna save. So anyway, but yes, please

(01:02:37):
continue. What does this sponsor you do?
He's done do this steps move on OK or do you tear are?
You sure, Eric? Oh, yeah, that's no, no, you
know. OK.
I could be. I'm the captain.
Here. OK, my bad.
He think he's the captain. I think, I think my like.
I don't think that at. All what what's coming?
I'm trying to turn off my mic atany.
I'm like, David is like captaining and I'm like, wait,

(01:02:59):
but Are you sure like my codependency?
Like. Oh, but Are you sure?
We don't. No, this is the Wizard of Oz.
Don't pay attention to me. Don't say no.
Yeah, I'm controlling everythingthough, so.
I know, don't turn my mic off. Yeah, well, so David, what you
had said reminded me of, I mean,the way, way what you were first
talking about, like meeting Sponsee's where they're at.

(01:03:21):
I guess with that, I would say like Sponsee's job is to just
come exactly as you are. That's like #1 And let's see,
Will I remember the second thingI thought of?
Yeah, like come as you are, obviously do the steps, 'cause,
you know, don't do the 123 shuffle.

(01:03:43):
Keep it moving. And yeah, just be honest about
where you are, where you're at, like what you were sharing.
Honest, yes, you've got to do, Imean, like the honesty, open
mindedness and willingness. But it's critical in the
relationship with your sponsor, you know, and that includes.
'Cause we're not mind readers. Right and, and being honest with
your network, if you've, if you've got the sense that maybe

(01:04:05):
you need to switch sponsors, talk that out.
Don't just sit on that one. And that, you know, that's a
sensitive topic for me. I guess I feel like I need to
give that a voice 'cause I didn't right And I'm not so I
don't regret, right, Like I'm right in the seat where I'm
supposed to be in this moment. So everything happened the way
it was supposed to, clearly. But I still like, you know, I'm

(01:04:27):
very, I'm so like. There's times when it's like,
hey, do as I say, not as I do like and, and 'cause I mean,
there was a three-year period where I didn't have a Home group
and like, I would still go to people's anniversaries, but I
was, you know, kind of detached from the program.
This was your Home group, David.Yeah, it really, it kind of was.
Yeah, it was. You know, we were diving into
this at the time, but yeah. I mean.

(01:04:51):
Is what it is. So what does this sponsee do?
I liked a lot of what you guys said, like with your answer was
the word becoming that I got stuck on and then coming as you
are. And so like the two together for
me is just like, OK, so like I got clean and as I'm, I guess I

(01:05:14):
hate this word, but I'm going touse it 'cause I think it's the
best one. Evolving as a clean person, I
guess. Why do you hate that word?
That's a good word. It is like it's a good word, I
just I wish I had a better one changing.
Yeah. Metamorphosizing.

(01:05:35):
Yeah. And so like as I'm learning all
this new stuff, I'm like gaininglike a different version of
self-awareness. And I can't use that as a
blanket statement though. And that's why the word becoming
is so important is because gaining the ability to just come
as you are. And then once you know, like you

(01:05:58):
have the awareness that you're doing that, the responsibility
isn't to aim for that. Keep striving for exactly that
point. And like that transfers into
like all the things you guys touched.
It's just like, OK, like if I amstriving for that after I've
learned this skill, then like, Iautomatically fall into being

(01:06:20):
honest. Like I automatically fall in to
like whatever level of willingness I have when I wake
up that day. And I don't.
Well, my favorite part about a lot of the literature and then
just like the spiritual principles in general is how
they all touch each other. Like, they just, like, all

(01:06:40):
connect. And she made me do like this
little chart of like for values and everything, and that's how
my brain was. Like a red string.
Crazy math. Like this guy?
Wait, someone else does that? Yeah, everybody does that.
Yeah. Pepe, Sylvia.
Pepe, Sylvia. Oh my God, yeah, that's what it
is. It's literally Charlie and the
Pepe Sylvia episode. Yes.

(01:07:02):
I keep getting old. I have no idea that anyone else
did that. Yeah, of course.
Why? Not what?
OK, please continue. What do you think?
Thoughts are linear? What kind of psychopaths are we?
No, we're not normal. It was just like the picture I
guess in my head I have what I'mtrying to explain.
It's just like I have my top value in the way that one frames

(01:07:22):
how I get to the other ones thatI hold in a seam and they just
like it's like I could do like this crazy graph.
But really if like I am aiming for this one, it's gonna like
trickle into this. Oh yeah, it's gonna.
Exactly. Yeah, integrity is an umbrella
for a ton of spiritual principles.
And the sponsor, by the way, just going back to the what is

(01:07:43):
the sponsor do they also must not just remain teachable with
their sponsor, but with their sponsors.
Like when Cat brought that to mewas like, and I was like, you
did you did it a different. But then I heard her
explanation. I was like, oh, right now I feel
like an idiot, but not in a non humble way.

(01:08:06):
I was at yeah, I was just like, Oh my gosh, that's brilliant.
You know, like I didn't even think about how they technically
I could draw lines to every single value touching every
other value. I wouldn't have.
So what? You know, we don't necessarily
need the lines because. Yeah, we don't need the psycho
room. Right.
The psycho room, right? We'll have to Pepe Sylvia this
bitch. OK, we can.

(01:08:27):
We can though. If.
That works for you. There is.
No Carol in HR. No, all these people exist and
they've been wanting their mail for.
Jesus, because. Like that's the second part.
It's just like the other thing it made me think of is just
remembering who like I am and like who I'm with.

(01:08:47):
Like we're all in recovery. And if I can sit and point out
paradoxes in the literature because a humanity in general is
just like people of paradox. And then like addicts way more
heavy in that department. And so it's like the combined
skill I become these things, allthe like trickle effects

(01:09:08):
happens. And then the constant my just
for today is just. And yeah, by like, if I want
people to meet me where I'm at, I have to do the same.
And it doesn't matter how much time like somebody I'm
interacting with has or like howadept they are at applying all
the things. It's like I'm with anybody in a
room realistically adapt to where I'm at and who I'm with.

(01:09:31):
And like that skill is 1 of my favourites of becoming a person
who does things. Yeah.
And it's ultimately like, you know, this sounds might sound
shitty. And it's like, is this person
helping me like to move my life forward?
Well, because it's. And vice.
Versa like initiative in like your own process and like I

(01:09:55):
value that super highly because like I just it was so long that
I wasn't able to yeah and. I think it's clear in your own
life. Yeah, I like get anxious about
like saying it especially in early recovery as anything is
blanket statement because yeah, we are like individual as we are
like but so like yeah, becoming that.

(01:10:19):
Could be the the underlying title.
As individuals, we are like that's.
Amazing. But like becoming into like the
awareness and everything that was like such a huge part of it
is like I am taking initiative here and that like fell into my
umbrella of like responsibility.It's just like, OK, yeah, like
I'm not going to get help with this if I don't ask.

(01:10:40):
Just as in I'm not going to be like open minded if like I don't
try and it's just getting the picture to stay together and and
having help with it. Yeah.
That just, I don't know how it just triggered.
One of my favorite quotes is once you awaken from the dream,
you'll never sleep so soundly again.
Yeah. And it's like.
But yeah, once that coming to, you know, that first spiritual

(01:11:04):
awakening of OK, I do have some power here.
I do have steps to take. Life may be worth it.
Yeah, there, there's, there. Just for today, you.
Can't untake the the pill, you know what I mean?
It's like, fuck yeah. It's like God, it's already in
there. Shit.
But also like, and everybody who's listening, I'm going to

(01:11:24):
give you your science fact of the day with evolution because,
you know, and metamorphosizing, changing.
Do you guys know that the process between Caterpillar and
butterfly is still unidentifiable by science?
Yeah. Yeah, well, we talked about, so
there's a stage in, you know, becoming from Caterpillar to

(01:11:46):
butterfly called the magic soup,where where the Caterpillar
becomes liquid and a a liquid inside the the cocoon.
And then from that liquid becomes a completely new
creature. Science does not know how it's
happened. It is completely a mystery.
Like you can. You all could see my face right

(01:12:07):
now. Yeah, it's it is.
It is called the magic soup because and like that is like
that is one of the one things that I'm like, OK, there has to.
Be and this. There has to be there.
Has to be a higher power. This is why nature that.
Does not happen exactly accidentlike that's that is such a.
Miraculous change. That it's, it's unbelievable.

(01:12:27):
To me, This is why, yeah, I would say like mystery is so
like mystery of nature. Remember being caterpillars.
Oh really? Yeah.
How do? You know.
That Yeah. How do they know that they do?
I will tell you. All.
Everybody who's listening, you're getting some facts.
So what they did is with caterpillars they introduced
them to. This is really cruel and it's a

(01:12:49):
terrible experiment, but it worked and it got results.
They it. You.
Sound like someone in the 50s. Had to be done.
God I. Heard to be done Lobotomies not
they're they're terrible. But they get results.
Great, great. We created Ted Kaczynski through
these psychological experiments.But it worked.
Damn it, she has this. Glenn, get me a pack of SHE.
Has hysteria? We have the answer.

(01:13:11):
Jesus. So anyway, they would expose
these caterpillars to a scent and right after they gave the
caterpillars A scent, they wouldgive them an electrical shock.
And they did this over and over and over again.
And then they waited until the caterpillars became butterflies.
And then they exposed them to the same scent right before the

(01:13:32):
electrical shock. And every times the butterfly
spelled it, they freaked. The fuck?
Out. Oh my.
God, so they insinuated that they are reacting to the same
scent from when they were caterpillars, remembering that
pain was going to come after. It Oh my God, that's amazing.
So. That's how they proved that a
butterfly does in fact, RememberRemember being a Caterpillar.

(01:13:52):
Wow. Which is amazing for recovery
and, and addiction because even in you know, when we are our
butterfly state and you know, we're flying on our own, when we
get that, you know, muscle memory or trigger memory or
scent memory from our past, we can still freak out right from
that pain. And the only, the only

(01:14:13):
difference with us, right. And this is kind of like core,
core to the disease, at least inmy opinion, is that what should
be pain? We might freak out with
butterflies in our stomachs, like excitement, right.
We can misinterpret the signals.And that.
Yeah, that is why, you know, what do we say?
Playing the team through. Yeah.

(01:14:35):
And. Right.
And masochism is, yeah, huge. We want to.
Control the pain. That's why when I hear there's
this person Kurt R1 time in thisarea had said to me or not to
me, but he shared in a meeting that he calls the disease
self-destructive personality disorder.
And it's I love that because it's like personality disorder

(01:14:57):
denotes. Probably.
More apropos. It really is like personality
disorders. Typically you know the
understanding in psychology anyway, I, I have a psych
bachelor's degree, so I don't understand a little.
I'm not that qualified to talk on it.
But anyway, it was like, you know, that personality disorders
are inexorable. They, they are not malleable.
They do not adapt to things right.

(01:15:19):
So like it's so applicable in the sense and like how how to
how to cluster B disorders, which is like borderline
narcissistic and antisocial. And then there's one I'm
missing. I think it might be histrionic.
Those, those disorders like the treatment option besides
medication is like to basically have a mentor to guide you to

(01:15:43):
life. And it's like, you know, sounds
'cause like sounds like what we're doing here.
You know what I mean? I my, my ability to adapt and
read the room, so to speak, you know, and not be a masochist,
not be a martyr and not, you know, get that pain, shock and
go, I'd love to do that again, you know what I mean?

(01:16:05):
And find myself like on the brink of death again.
Like it's not a thing without, without a person, you know, to,
to, to, to remind me to help me play that tape.
But it does not mean that that'sforever.
That doesn't mean that I need tocall 50 times a day, let alone
every day. In the beginning, call like
anybody out there. Call as.
Many Oh my God, the. Beginning calls as many times as

(01:16:26):
you like. But like, somehow we seem to be
actually recover, like recovering, you know, away from
this inexorability, this lack ofadaptability.
Yeah. Here's the question.
You ever call, you ever not called your sponsor because you
feel like a burden? Oh my God, yeah.
I I didn't really call my sponsor, I'll be honest.
Yeah, because you were too busy in a lighthouse.

(01:16:47):
I get it. Yeah, well, we, we, we set up
appointments. You know, we didn't really talk.
Same with my sponsor now, not inthe past.
That's hilarious. I just set up a.
Fucking appointment. That's how it is with my sponsor
now. Like we have our every two weeks
step working session, but there's like times she's in
Florida, you know? So no, I get it.
It's been remote for almost as long as the way.

(01:17:07):
Eric said it just sounded. Weird.
No, no, it's great. We have appointments though and
like but she but however, if I call she will return my call.
I had a sponsor in in my in between my testing out who I
called and left three voicemailsover weeks, you know, to say I'm
ready to do my step one. And I got a call back up like a

(01:17:28):
month later and it was, hey, so do you want to come with your
sponsee sisters to come hear me speak?
And and I'm like, no, this. I want you to hear me.
In the room like what are we here to do friend?
Like anyway? Exactly.
She also wore Jesus puppets on her fingers that are first or at
her not 1st celebration. Her celebration though, So,

(01:17:49):
well, excuse. Me.
What? Yeah.
And then and then post it on Facebook about witchcraft and
come and like, please everyone, pray for my family to protect us
from witchcraft. Wait, Eric, we're going to
swiftly move path past this. There's too much to unpack.
Too much. It really is.
We got to. Move Jesus, Zombie Jesus or
regular Jesus. It was Jesus.
Black these were a little felt Jesus finger puppets, Mary and

(01:18:12):
all the people. They had the whole the whole
danger. Like everybody.
Yeah. They were all finger puppets.
Yeah. The danger of finger puppets.
That her anniversary. Sure, sure did.
Yep. And I see I picked her because
A, she was in recovery from bulimia and I didn't know anyone
else who had that. But B, it was that her faith,

(01:18:32):
like I perceived her as being intelligent.
And I have this hang up right about about believing in
organized religion, right? And I'm working on that.
So I'm going, I'm going to pick someone who has this faith in
something that I think. To directly.
Challenge it to directly challenge it.
So like you like my intentions were my intentions were we're
good. It's just once that witchcraft

(01:18:53):
post I was like, I gotta go. Yeah, yeah.
All right. This should be a short answer
just because, you know, we'll gothrough it just be for the, you
know, sake of it, because we've all answered it.
How do how do you get us or how do we get a sponsor?
Just like we've talked about, you know, you you ask.
Yeah, Don't. Don't just go to somebody

(01:19:14):
randomly and and just ask them. I mean, you can do that for
sure. It may yes, 5050, but how how
that's going to go. But just listen to people in a
meeting, do a little bit of homework and once they say
something that appeals to you, then you just go ask them.
You just go ask them once, Once you're like, I, I think this, I,

(01:19:37):
I vibe with this person, they'resaying things that you know,
sound like answers to what I'm dealing with.
Then you just go ask how do you get a sponsor?
Yeah. I mean pretty much that.
Yeah, it's a pretty simple question.
Where you let them hound you? Well, yeah.
I mean the like only thing I would add is just like.

(01:20:01):
I don't know, for me, it's just like one of those things like I
asked my first one. I think like the way I got
sponsored in generally happened because I was so used to just
like sharing in a group setting.And so like me going to meetings
like I didn't have a problem with, I mean, I have social
anxiety and it feels like an aneurysm every time I speak in

(01:20:22):
front of people, but like sayingwhat's on my mind exactly how
like I'm thinking it wasn't hard.
And so like I'll mention in a meeting like I'm having housing
problems or like what's the sponsorship?
And then people come up to me. And so it's you can go one or
two routes, do your homework andstuff like that or come as you

(01:20:43):
are and then don't control the response.
It's just like staying open to like either you or your
environment because like, I don't know, I moved out and then
continued meetings because like even if I didn't want it, like
even if I have commitment issueswith breathing it, I still like

(01:21:09):
need to change so bad like I just did and there's.
Still, the threat of hope in. There, Yeah.
No, the threat of hope. And so like, yeah, but it
happened and see where it goes. And I do heavily suggest the
whole like a little bit of research beforehand, because I
approach everything like a little too unresearchable with a

(01:21:34):
lot of opinions still, yeah. Research.
Do. Your research, yeah, do your
research. That would definitely help.
But that's what I did. Eric's level of research was
ridiculous. He's the only drug addict I've
ever known that researched the drugs he was doing.
Oh, I know one too, yeah. Never mind, I'm a reckless piece
of shit. I'd say.
It's like what is this? I'm reckless and impulsive.

(01:21:56):
Yeah, I was like, it's a powder,OK.
It looks like it could be heroin.
Yeah. So.
This looks like a drug. What is?
What is caught? No, but he would actually like
Google his shit and go on a heroin and all this shit.
Oh yeah, I have time for that. That's how my friend, my friend
Adam was. I was gonna be high.
I literally. We're done reading.
I'm doing a 12 step pulling, pulling my friend out of his

(01:22:17):
relapse. Well, his place of living.
I'm not pulling him out of his relapse, but I'm pulling him out
of his place of living. At the time it's like a meth
house and he's explaining organic chemistry to me.
That's cool. I'm like.
What? Dragonfly in the tattoo.
Yeah, you know, that's their other logo.
One of their other logos. But yeah, organic chemistry, I
mean, why not, right? Like that's.

(01:22:38):
Exactly because he was explaining how how to make GHB.
I was like, thank you, can we go?
We have GHB is like one of the college chemistry class drugs
you. Can exactly.
Yep. Wow, that seems responsible.
Gamma hydroxy butyric I've. Talked about this.
We were, we had we had someone come on or that's.
And he was like, Oh yeah, I usedto make drugs in college and I
was like, yeah, GHB and I was Randy.

(01:23:00):
Yeah, it was Randy. He was like, yeah, exactly.
Yeah, he, he was the he was the off off campus pharmacist.
What do you call it like? I appreciate hearing that
though, because it was like either I'm doing whatever is in
front of me or like I'm in this controlled environment.
And so like I was the person that like that's where
desperation took me, was just like, OK, you gave me this pill.

(01:23:21):
Let's see if it has this ability.
It's. It's the right thing to do.
Oh my God, I'm not. I'm.
Gonna be honest. Absolutely you guys actually
researching your shit was the way to go about.
Like self preservation somehow came through, you know, like
there's a self preservation aspect in that even if
technically what you're trying to do is control.
Yeah, you ended up with like a side of self preservation.

(01:23:45):
We'll take it and you know. Here's something you know, my
sponsor said in early recovery to me, because he is like an act
of addiction. You know, somebody puts this in
front of you and says take it, and you're like, OK, yeah, cool,
no problem. I suggest you take this.
Cool, no problem. But then we come into recovery
and somebody who's genuinely trying to cover, yeah, help us

(01:24:06):
is saying here's a suggestion, you should take this.
And we're like. Why?
Right, we have the audacity to fucking ask a question from
somebody who's trying to help us.
Meanwhile, Joe Blow on the corner.
Who's offering? Actually.
Random pills. We're like, cool.
Three of them, please. Exactly.
That's that question in step onethat asks us, or Step 2 rather,
I think. Identifier will help you

(01:24:27):
identify those pills if you don't know what they are just
from. Yeah, anybody who's out there
still listening? Pills there.
Are apps for pill identifier? From Yeah download.
Don't just. Self preserve.
Self preserve please. Yes, you being alive is the most
important. Thing, right.
But Step 2 has that question that says is, is there anything
that I've ever done or like where I didn't have any evidence

(01:24:47):
to believe that it would happen,and yet I did it anyway, Right?
And I remember the first time somebody gave me that example.
Hey, you gave your money to any weirdo who claimed they could
get you drugs, right? Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah, can I be any weirdo and
you listen to me now. But then I.
Want to put then I have the audacity to be close minded when
people are trying to help me like.

(01:25:09):
What? Right.
It's almost like we are allergicto like to help.
Yeah, the big book talks about an allergy, you know, to drugs.
But no, I think, I mean, that's that's valid.
And also I seem to be allergic to real help, right?
Well, and Eric, like this has been a recurring theme in the
last like couple weeks, like between Eric and I as like
conversation is the, the, the dichotomy of isolation and

(01:25:33):
connection, because addiction isisolation in all forms of your,
your mental state, your emotional state, your spiritual
state is completely isolated even from yourself.
And the, and the biggest way to combat that is connection.
You have to, you know, you have to reconnect with yourself.
You have to connect with other human beings and like, you have

(01:25:53):
to find a level of, and I don't like, I don't see spirituality
in any sort of religious sense. Like I say, spirituality in a
thirst for life. In a Revive your spirit, yeah.
Way. Exactly.
Love that. Yes, revive your own spirit as a
human being. Yeah, 'cause if you're, you

(01:26:14):
know, if you're using, it's dead.
That spirit you may, you may, your heart may be beating man,
but. But I didn't care.
I didn't. Care.
Me neither. Yeah, me neither.
Yeah, yeah, benzos and opiates, blop, blop down the Hatch,
right? Blop.
Blop. What about you, Eric?
How do you get a sponsor? Wait.

(01:26:34):
Didn't we already answer this one?
We have. That's why I was, you know, we
were doing a short, short answer.
You just asked. OK, perfect.
Nailed it. That's it.
And sticking with you, Eric, when should we get a sponsor,
which is the. I'm just asking the final two
questions, man. Even though we were pretty much
a. Sponsor, I would say between

(01:26:54):
three and six months. Oh, you're going with an exact
date and you're saying? Yeah, I don't.
I think the first three months you shouldn't have a sponsor.
You should get the lay of the land and like figure out who you
want. The research asset.
Research because you can be a little too impulsive and then
you're in a relationship that you're not really that stoked
about. That's reasonable opinion.

(01:27:16):
What about? You I think that's reasonable
too, because at least for me, right, like I said, I have a
real big issue with staying in things too long.
So although I'd love to sit hereand say that to answer both
questions is how to get a sponsor like don't ask like
another, not how to get a sponsor right is don't say if

(01:27:38):
you've never had a sponsor, I'm talking to those listeners.
Don't bother with the like. Will you be my temporary
sponsor? Because it's it's.
Like do you want a temporarily? We're all temporary.
We quite literally are all temporary.
No. And I I mean I don't even mean
that in a life and death thing. Something I would.
Say, but David, you, you quite literally learned that it sounds
like you may have left that sponsor prior to him passing

(01:28:03):
away. Yeah.
But nonetheless, yeah. But I wasn't even.
I wasn't even going there. My best fucking friends in early
recovery. Yeah, and we're all temporary,
but I don't even mean it in lifeand death.
I mean that you can, quite literally, it's not have that
sponsor for a month and leave. But my problem is I won't do
that. You know what I mean?
I know myself well enough to know that I am powerless over

(01:28:25):
this codependent loyalty, and I'm working on that now.
But at 30 days clean, I might not have.
So I'd like what Eric said because.
We don't even trust ourselves tomake a good decision.
So when we think we are making good, good decision, we're like,
well we have to stick with this one until it like it comes off
the fucking rails and crashes toour own destiny.

(01:28:46):
Yeah. So I disagree with him.
When should you get a spots? I don't even know how to answer
that. I don't know how I don't.
There's no wrong answer. Well, yeah, like except.
For never and then no. And that's not even necessarily
a wrong answer. Depends on the individual.

(01:29:08):
Yeah, for me, like I when I understood what was going on,
that's why I also like his answer.
I'm not like crazy on definitivedates, but like important.
Like for me like it's just nothing really could be till I
was ready because I didn't even know what that meant.
And most of the time, if you askme, like, probably not and I'm

(01:29:31):
still going to show up and do this shit anyway.
That's the perfect answer when when you're ready.
Yeah. When it feels.
Right, yeah. And I'll, I'll just mirror that.
Yeah. When?
Yeah, when you're ready, get a sponsor.
If it's if it's first two weeks,great.
If it's at six months, nine months, yeah, great.
You know when, like when you know it, it's the correct time

(01:29:54):
for because honestly, going backto that, if you're not if, if
you're forcing it, then then you're.
It doesn't. Then it's not gonna work.
Right. It's because that's just
recovery in general. If I if I'm if I'm trying to
force this thing into in an intoplace when I'm not ready, then.
Like and kind of to what you said, Kat, like on the sort of

(01:30:15):
what you said, but also kind of the like the flip side is coming
into recovery, you may not know when you're ready.
So you may get that sponsor because ready to you means the
anti ready. Like you literally don't know if
you're ready. Therefore it's time to get a
sponsor, right? Like it could be that because
you don't know anything about yourself or what any of this is.

(01:30:37):
You just are like, well, I guesstoday I'm going to get a sponsor
because I'm, I feel like I might, I have a little bit of
hope that maybe I won't feel so much like I don't know what the
fuck any of this is tomorrow because I'll have had that
sponsor. Well.
Yeah, 'cause it's like the similar thing of it's just like
another inverse example. Like, OK, so you went to the

(01:30:58):
random guy with money and just like, OK, you'll give me drugs.
So can that other your sponsor be the random weirder now?
And the same thing with like ready is like, oh God, it was
just in my head. I hate that so much.
Yeah, Is can you repeat? Oh, yeah, like, you may not

(01:31:21):
know. You may not know when you're
ready because you lack the intuition or the self-awareness
to really know. Yeah.
That's what it was. So when I was like the version
of me that use anything in frontof me is like, I can take that
and verse it and be like, OK, today I'm staying clean with
what I have. Like what I have my hands on.
Is that my motivation today? I'm going to go there and be

(01:31:43):
open to yeah, the possible consequences.
That's why in early recovery, it's just like the listening
aspect of when I go to meetings and whoever's in my network
helps me like helps guide what Ihave in the moment for the
sponsorship aspect. So like I heard all these things
and like is just when I'm ready that day, is that the day I'm
taking the motivation and doing the action?

(01:32:04):
Yes, 'cause that actually goes, you know, is the, the, the
parallel antithesis. When I asked you what was your
drug of choice, What do I have? OK, how am I gonna recover with
what I got? Yeah, very good.
Love that mic drop all. Right.
Boom. We're done here.
No. Eric, do you have any other
points or questions you would like to bring up?

(01:32:28):
Did we finish the? The pamphlet is over.
I have a couple points, but I wanted to ask you first, No.
You go first. You go first.
Well, then I'm going to defer tothe ladies.
Do you have any points of sponsorship that you would like
to bring up or questions you'd like to ask?
There was just one thing. I think there's might have been
quite a few things that came up,but yeah, anyway, the one thing.

(01:32:49):
Lots of things come through the transom.
Yeah, I mean like, 'cause I could I, you know, it's been, I
started sponsoring with a year clean.
I started sponsoring after like in the middle of a fourth set,
not even in the middle. I was just beginning.
Yeah, that's a question that's not in the panel.
When I should, When should I start?
When should I become a sponsor? Right?
That's a great question. That could be there is the

(01:33:10):
sponsorship. That's a great question.
The booklet, like the actual literature.
That is the worst piece of. Literature.
Yeah, No one sells it it. Knows which one the.
Sponsorship NAWS went so far outof their scope of
responsibility. Sure, read it if you want, but
like once, you're not. Please don't make us as
formulaic I, I. Read it and I was like this is.
True. It's like living sober.

(01:33:31):
It's just a book that should be thrown.
Away Yeah, yeah, yeah. So like I became a sponsor a
little like what would you know I received a lot of Flack from
but my sponsor was like, yes, gofor it.
You need to be of selfless service and you need to be of
selfless service in the way thatI know like for her right is
like this is a sentiment I'm notI'm not quoting but you need to

(01:33:54):
be of selfless service in the way that I know has anchored me
here right. And that's one point I guess I
have two One point is just that like if you know anyone out
there is is saying to themselveswith 2-3 even a year clean you
know that they don't think they're ready please know that
none of us know when we're readyjust like what we were talking
about when to get a sponsor we do like I.

(01:34:17):
I had no idea because I didn't know what the fuck it was all I
know was all I knew was what my sponsor was doing and she was
doing it with grace and poise inmy perception and she was doing
it to the best of my ability andshe was to some extent being
honest about winging it. You know what I mean And that's
what we're all doing I mean it'slike like what you hear when
parents say that they don't know.
When they're ready either like, we're not, you know, not to

(01:34:39):
conflate that parents are like sponsors, but or sponsors are
like parents. But sometimes you can fall into
that. But yeah, like, you don't know
when you're ready. And I will say that, like, my
one year celebration right before then, right, had been the
most amazing day. Like I was like, oh, that's when
my hope really burgeoned becauseit was like, I thought getting

(01:35:00):
high. Thank you.
I thought getting high was the highest.
Yeah. And then I was in my one year
celebration, bawling my eyes outtwo minutes into my story.
Right. So therefore embarrassed.
There's all these other feelings, but literally that
storm. That's why, That's why my first
year was at the midnight meeting, so nobody could see me.
Cry. Yeah, my.

(01:35:21):
Tears will be in there. Were like 70 people there.
There were people from my high school, friends of mine that had
come. I had, I had people from like 6
different areas that had travelled out there.
And I'm not saying that to boast.
I am saying that there was a storm, that storm of 2012 in
June that knocked all the lightsout for a week.
These people are driving home. Yeah.

(01:35:43):
Yeah. And they're driving home from my
celebration. We talked about that last.
We did. We did.
I was tripping on. Classic during the.
Yeah, and the ceiling, the ceiling tiles are flying away
like it's a whole. Thing on acid 2 during that
dude. Yeah, me and my cousin.
Me and my cousin. Split A. 10 like split.
A10 I can't even imagine, but that's mostly because I've never
did acid so it's. Scariest.

(01:36:05):
Yeah. Don't do fall.
Yeah. So we, you know, that was an
amazing night. And I found out that it's
actually, you know, it was a better high because it felt it
was real. And then guess what?
It was topped the first time I took a sponsee through Step 1.
So anyway, please stop saying toyourself that you don't know
when you're ready. If you really aren't, then like
that'll show itself. Don't go out there and cause

(01:36:27):
harm. But if you don't know if you're
ready, that's great because it puts you in a humble place to
really, you know, remain teachable as a sponsor too, and
to learn what it really means. But it also there's just no
greater high. And I hate to use the word like
high, but it is what it is. Like, there's no more genuine

(01:36:47):
and now I'll start crying. There is no more genuine, like,
joy in this life. I know.
Yeah. Than to watch the light come
into someone's eyes. Oh, yeah.
And so that's that's that's, youknow, the main point I've got.
And especially like really like the one of the biggest most

(01:37:11):
recent hits was getting like 10 years, 10 years, like was really
surreal and. Surreal, that's the word.
Yeah. And then cuz you know, I came
into these rooms at 25 and, you know, Eric was right around the
same age and a lot of like a lotof my friends who were right
around the same age. And like luckily a good amount

(01:37:33):
of us, which a good amount I'm saying is like 12 of us have
stayed clean. And so.
Now we have, you know, variancesof 11/12/13 like Donnie who has
like 15 years clean. And so there was like this 3-4
year span where all these mid 20s.
Yeah. And we had that down in Central

(01:37:55):
Maryland. And now we're the old heads and
we see. Exactly.
Kids And it sucks to say that because I'm like, I'm 37, I'm
still young and it's like, no, I'm not.
Ohh, shut up. You're.
Still young? No, I'm not.
I'm. Not I am still young, therefore
you must still be young. Yes, OK, We're all, we're all

(01:38:16):
young and OK, Yeah, there's nothing but.
So young. Living so young.
Endlessly young. Forever young.
But no, like seeing, seeing these, you know, 2021 to like 25
year olds coming in, you know, washing ashore.
And I'm like, Oh shit, I was, I was them.
And just trying to like, impressupon them that like, I'm, I'm
like, please, like, come get this perspective of 1012 years

(01:38:40):
in your mid 30s. And it's, it's, it's surreal.
Cause like, and have you ever been like in those meetings
where like the air is, is is special?
Like sure. A lot of meetings like are just
routine. It don't.
It happens so much and. Every real every once.
In a while. You're like and you're just like

(01:39:01):
that. Something's happening, yes.
Like. This that was because I put
nitrous in the. Oh my God, Eric, you.
Step exed us, you bastard. Oh my God, that was great.
Yo me and my in like year two and three me.
And my friend was actually. We created the extra steps which
were just terrible. No, Yeah, yeah, we went up to

(01:39:22):
go. Yeah.
So step, step off. Everybody knows what step 13 is.
And then Step 14 was helping to accelerate somebody towards
their bottom. You're like, you're actually
helping them. It's like, oh really?
Yes, I actually agree with that,yeah.
Like, oh, you're still out there, you know, try the pumpkin
spice crack, which is really therage this time.

(01:39:42):
I'll drive you, I'll drive you it'll.
Be great and then we'll get you into rehab and we'll, you know,
we'll hit that bottom and bounceback up.
It works with defects too, like Let me help you get to your by
basically unfriending. I couldn't remember for what
step fucking 15 was, but then wecreated a step X and this is
terrible. This is all just joking people.
This is tongue in cheek humor. But we were like, you go to a

(01:40:03):
convention and you spike the fucking the the punch with acid
to just Fight Club the whole situation.
So there are no more predecessors.
The degree of controversy right now, it's.
Just. Insane.
There are no more predecessors. No more predecessors.
We're all and. Then it's done.
Game over. It's all.
Game. Wait, wait, wait.
It's step. So that was like 13 but sub 16.

(01:40:24):
Oh OK yeah, I would go XX and say like every, you know, maybe
do like a whole Jim Jones situation with some.
Oh God, there's some kool-aid. Jesus, we'll.
Just, you know, be done. That's.
Dark. You can cut that out.
That's like. That's the black step.
World. Convention.
That's the black step, no? So back to the real question.

(01:40:46):
When should? When should you be a sponsor?
No, that was the question. That's yes, that's the.
Question. No.
I thought we were doing points, additional points.
Yeah, yeah. But your additional point was
like when cuz you asked. Like when to be a sponsor,
right? When to be a sponsor?
Kind of made that. I kind of take it like this,
sort of like with people on the street asking for help.

(01:41:10):
Yeah, if I say no, that's on me.Right.
Because the, you know, a lot of people are like, oh, they're
just going to go get high with that or they're going to go
blah, blah, blah. And I'm like, I don't care.
I give money to what? They're going to do with it
because it's a human being that's asking me for help.
Yeah, if I say no in that scenario.

(01:41:31):
Yes. It makes, well, you say no a
lot, right? But I say no when I like if I
genuinely don't have any cash, like I'm like, I'm sorry, I
can't help you, but like, but I'll be like I'm I'm walking
into the several other thing. Can I get you some water or?
Something to eat? Yeah, and I totally agree.
Say yes. Sometimes they say no.
Except for the piece of shit part.
Gonna reframe you for a second. You know, maybe you just robbed

(01:41:53):
yourself of the chance to feel. Yes, about doing some service,
Yeah, I'm not necessarily like apiece of shit, but like I'm,
yeah, I'm saying no to helping other human being.
Like what this this journey on this planet is not fucking easy.
Like this, this shit is difficult.
And if somebody is coming to me asking me for help in recovery

(01:42:14):
and I have 90 days clean and they have 90 minutes clean, I'll
be like, yes, I will help you like and whether like whatever,
just like we talked about like, you know, a sponsor isn't
necessarily your sponsor. Sometimes it's somebody in your
network. It Harkins to Fight Club again
Single serving friend it's a single serving sponsor a.

(01:42:36):
Single serving friend I love that but yeah and and you know
I. Love that part of the movie.
It me too. Maybe I'm only, you know, their
sponsor for a week and then oh, I get them.
I'm like hey man, the helping out mission would really help.
You. Or some sort of scenario like
that. Or this person can really help

(01:42:58):
you. Sometimes you're not always a
final destination. Sometimes you're just a
stepping, stepping or a conduit to something that they need.
And the universe puts you synchronistically along that
same path to help that person. So.
I. My opinion is when somebody asks
you for help, you help them. Yes.

(01:43:19):
So that's when you should be a sponsor when the opportunity,
Yeah, yeah. You know, keeping it bare bones,
you're not guaranteed to become friends like you said, like that
can happen, but if you're just asingle serving, if you're a
steward, then it can be OK to just help to the extent that
you're needed, which is the conduit.
Which is good. I mean, that's what that's the

(01:43:40):
purpose of the job, right? Yeah.
That's the purpose of recovery in general is to help each
other. Like that's why we're here.
What's your problem and how can we help?
Boom, that's it. Oh, you know, on that note, I
was just gonna say, like, what? Back to what a sponsor does
They, like the big book says, 'cause I was all pissed off
about they, why do they use the word recovered?

(01:44:02):
And then I found out, 'cause it says we have recovered from a
seemingly hopeless state of mind.
So my job as a sponsor is to show someone what it, what it's
like to not be hopeless. There is a solution you know.
So I have a question for you about the big book.
How do you feel about it as likereading it from a woman's

(01:44:25):
perspective? Because like it upsets me as
like a male. So like, how do you feel?
I'm a bad one to ask because so I had a really good dad
therefore I have actually no issue with the patriarchy
whatsoever. I also never I never
tremendously so I don't feel I'mnot I don't call myself gender
fluid whatsoever. Like I am absolutely a girl, but

(01:44:47):
I'm just the wrong one to ask because I never so over
identified with being female. I just never saw the world like
that, I guess. It's.
The. It's the four of the wives.
The four of the wives. Oh, that part.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Subtle racism, that's.
Like that is. Yeah, you're right.
No, Yeah, I, I just. I guess I'm grateful.
I think I. That book is skimming that part
100 years old. Right, right, right.

(01:45:09):
Like there's absolutely, absolutely there are pieces of,
there's pieces of that book thatare crunchy.
Thumpers of that book, they're like, it works while I change it
and by that token I'm like. I know I'd like to now you make
because my mom's in a A and now now Eric, I'm because she's
listen, I didn't pay attention to anything I didn't need like I

(01:45:31):
took what I needed and left the rest.
And so that that's my point. It's not that it wouldn't have
bothered me, but I think when I got to for the wives, I was
like, not a wife moving on. So we've we've talked to, you
know, we've talked to other women and not to not to show the
big book or a a, but yeah, like for the wives is, is.
As a concept. Is.
It's bad. But some women are totally fine

(01:45:52):
with it too, which is what I don't get is just like we've
they're like, well, it worked back then.
I'm like, but it doesn't work now.
It doesn't. That's the problem that I have
is like. Yeah, when your man is getting
home, make sure you have, you know, a well, a nice meal ready
for him. Oh my God, it says.
That if you're talking about pretty much if you're talking
about ODAA like living sober is the best.

(01:46:12):
It was written in the 30s. Now so.
Women. Now I am mad.
I'm mad now we converted 1. You know what I would like to
can remain. I'm just not ever going to read
that text and pretend like don't.
Read it. It's like, I mean, it's just,
it's a bummer and it's a. I mean, you know, I guess and
then the devil's advocate in me is like, wait, did they just

(01:46:32):
think that addiction didn't affect females because like.
That's what I I feel like that'swhat Doctor Bob and Bill were.
Talking When that book was written, they were still giving
lobotomies to have to have, right?
Right. So.
Maybe read the room? We're doing better.
Read the Room. Yeah, yeah.
But then the. Room has changed.
Has it though, 'cause in the Philippines they're just killing

(01:46:53):
addicts, so. Well, that's not, is that
Philippines or is that that's the, I thought that was Minar or
Myanmar. Myanmar, yeah.
No, it's the Philippines. Holy, so wow.
Yeah, if you're on the side of the road and they say and you're
suspected, they literally just have kill squads.
They're like you're dead. Oh my God.
Yeah, if you're nodding out on the side of the road, it's like,
no, I'm just tired. Yeah, whatever, druggie.

(01:47:14):
Talk about playing God. Talk about like, not natural
selection. Unnatural.
Addict and if you're actually convicted, you're sentenced to
death. It has been it has been a
genocide of addicts in the. Philips, y'all be just up in
here opening my eyes. It's bad.
I'd be over here like some ostrich with my head in the
sand. You know that's a myth.

(01:47:35):
OK, never mind. She's opening my eyes all over
the place. I can't even use them anymore.
Sorry, wild wildlife facts. I'm a terrible person.
Oh my God, what? The.
The animal facts, I love it. You have one thing draws the
parallel. I'm like, well.
Actually, though, I seem to haveinadvertently surrounded myself
like my my best friend Adam alsoknows all the animal facts, and

(01:47:57):
I can't. I need to just remember to stay
aware. Let me learn a lesson for once.
Stay away from animal metaphors.One of one of my big pet peeves.
I'm like, oh, what's your favorite big cat?
And people are like Black Panthers.
I'm like, that's not a thing. Like it's not a thing.
First off, there's only one answer and it's a leopard.
What kind of leopard? Snow Leopard.
Sorry. What are we talking about?

(01:48:18):
Are we talking about no more leopard?
Are we talking a snow leopard? Are we talking about an African
leopard? An African leopard?
We're talking about a cloud. African No.
An African leopard. African leopard has the best
kill rate of anything besides a domestic cat.
That's not true. I think it is true.
No Look at Jaguars. Jaguars have the.
Cats have like their kill rates like 70%.
Should we all know that feline aids is the biggest killer of

(01:48:39):
domestic domestic cats? No, I'm an.
Ex-girlfriend. OK, we're we've gone off the
rails. No, I've gone off the rails.
I'm literally just quoting maybedowner the SNL sketch, sorry.
Do you have any points about sponsorship you'd like to bring
up Cat? Don't feel pressured if you
don't, you can say no. No, I don't have any points.

(01:49:00):
I just had a lot of things that like, it triggered my brain and
like your whole butterfly magic soup thing.
Like, no real statistics. Shit.
Yeah, real. I have a way to, like, literal
application of it. Like, I had 12 sessions of ECT.

(01:49:20):
Oh, really? And I'm a person who had adverse
memory side effects and so, like, electroshock therapy.
Really. Yeah.
How does that still fucking exist?
Yeah, it does definitely does primitive.
Creature. I was 16.
Jesus is awful, my God. Abuse, Abuse.

(01:49:42):
Yeah. For.
Real and so like you were sayinglike the smell thing and then
they shocked these animals like hey, like I get that because
like my short term sucks, but like there's this like stretch
of long term where it gets real spotty.
But when I was in one of the rounds of treatment and so like

(01:50:04):
I'll be throughout my day and something I don't, I can't even
name what it is because this time I don't remember, but it's
like some random smell or sound.But the best example I have is
like I'll be in the rooms and hear about like stories of I go
to the doctor. It's like free drugs basically.
I go under anesthesia and I havepanic attacks because all I
remember is getting put under and then being given a seizure.

(01:50:27):
Like that's my butterfly God. Sorry, I'm sorry.
I feel awful now. No, my my animal faction just
thwarted me. No, but it's important to
remember sometimes, you know, ifyou're in a therapeutic
environment and that's the reopening old wounds like that,

(01:50:48):
that type of thing needs to be let out, you know, to share.
It's like my favorite. Like my whole favorite thing
about the sponsorship aspect in general is that like I come to
this person with like my lifetime of experience, however
limited or not it might be, and then tell a story and explain

(01:51:09):
how my brain is working to show it.
Like how it all connects and whyand just like being heard.
I think that's the most important thing I think I want
anyone to take away from this isjust from either side Sponsor.
Your sponsor is just falling into the skill, learning.

(01:51:32):
However it happens, seeing that person, it's just like the
feeling of being seen is so important.
Validation. Yeah, because like if you have a
sponsor that like has learned that, then it helps.
Like I don't struggle as hard inevery other area that I exist in

(01:51:58):
of like seeking it. And I'm not a huge like seeker
anyway. But I'm a person that gets
confused in the face of strong opinions.
Like I just do like I ZAP out because I know I like I believe
what I do like as hard as I do. The problem is I don't have like
a whole lot of experience in allthe things I do.
And so if some like, if I tell somebody something I believe and

(01:52:21):
they have like, I guess the opposite of that and they're
presenting it to me, if they sound like.
Combative. Yeah, they sound combative or.
Toxicly positive or? Something more put together than
how my brain operates. And I don't have any other area
of my life where I'm like, beingseen.

(01:52:41):
Then immediately like, oh, OK. And like, I just won't voice
myself. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah, I just shut down because I'm like, but internally I know
that I know what I'm doing, but I can't show anyone else because
like, I don't understand the feeling of being seen.
That's why I think it's so important.
It's just like sit there and be like, come as you are and like,

(01:53:04):
it's fucking OK. I hear you, right.
And like, that's my favorite part about it.
Same that's. Beautiful.
All right. Well, my last question is, you
know, if you have one specific, you know, memory of either
sponsorship or a specific part of like doing the steps that

(01:53:27):
have been really poignant to you, what are they?
And I'll start with you, Eric. So this is something I wouldn't
recommend when I was working my first.
Not a good start, but. Keep going My first sixth step
the girl I was dating at the time was also working her six
so. Fun.
I see where that. Should go.

(01:53:48):
And I would just highly recommend that if you're in a
relationship with another personin recovery that you don't end
up being on step 6 at the same time because it did not work out
very well in the end. And that is, yeah, that's that's
where I stand on that. All right, step work or

(01:54:08):
sponsorship. God, Cat, you just nailed the
head. Nailed it right on the head.
Yeah, feeling seen, especially, you know, going through a four
step. Yeah, like especially, you know,
my sponsor Herb, who's, you know, crazy ass fucking story

(01:54:31):
and like, I want to be, you know, ashamed about what I do.
I like who I who I perceived myself to be or what I had done.
And then he's just like that it OK, it's not that bad.
And you're like. OK, so the fifth step, a part
of. You know, leading into the fifth
step. Yeah, well, four and five is

(01:54:51):
really 4A and 4B. Yeah.
In reality agree. Like it's not really a fifth
step, like it's just the second part of the 4th, but that's
that's digression. But now probably my, my, like,
my most practical part of the like sponsorship and step work
was, you know, browbeating myself through, through Step 3
because I didn't understand the,the practical application of

(01:55:15):
turning my will and my life over.
And I, I, and I'm just, and I'm like, you know, I'm trying to,
you know, conceptualize this higher power and put it in a box
so I can explain it to everybody, right?
And I just couldn't do it. And he was like, listen, stop,
stop what you're doing. And he was just like, here, just
make a list of what the things you like.

(01:55:36):
What are what is your higher power?
Is he love it or are they not he?
I don't believe it's he anyway. Loving, caring, generous, you
know all those things. Do those things.
That's you turning your will andyour life over because you want
to be dishonest and, and uncaring and isolated.

(01:55:58):
So the antithesis of that, your spiritual principles, your
spiritual guide is this list do those things.
And that's living a third step. And I was like, OK, mm, hmm, OK,
I can do that. And I've and I've loved.
It's been my favorite step ever since.
The third step, Yep, same, Yep, same.
I say it all the time, but. And it's funny too, cause and

(01:56:20):
for. You out of your first four,
what's what's your favorite so far?
Oh. Eric's favorite is number 10.
Yep, but my second is 3. That's good.
Love it. Mentally, like probably had the

(01:56:41):
best time writing my like the last first step I did mostly
because I guess what I mentionedat the beginning, it was just I
took like everything that like Ihad awareness of and was like
writing out exactly. I was thinking it and found a

(01:57:02):
new way to say it. So like, because the way I talk
to myself isn't going to disappear today.
And but like now that like, because overarching for that
really is just, I find the valueof like my like practical
application and like the abilityto understand the extremes that

(01:57:24):
I do. Because yeah, being seasoned
like is probably #1 but it's the, I don't know if it's a
principle or not balance. The balance of it is really kind
of what you explained. Like I live in morbid

(01:57:45):
existentialism every day and so like I think about things like
in 10,000 different ways all thetime, but like how paradoxical
gets like I am. I don't know how to word it.

(01:58:10):
Yeah. So like reframing the self talk
was like super important and like I enjoyed it and, but I
like Step 2 because like it was the first time I felt angry and
just like let myself like be fucking angry.
Like 'cause I had done it before, like growing up, like I,
it was a different like flavour.Like it was not the extreme.

(01:58:33):
It was like I'm having these massive emotions and it's not
controlling my life and it's, but like I'm allowed to be.
That's what it is, is like the ability to say like I'm allowed
to do this. To grant yourself space to be
that. Yeah, to be angry and have it
not like ruin my internal self or harm anyone else was

(01:58:56):
phenomenal. Step 3 was irritating.
Because. Like.
I get it. That's where, like, weirdly, my
pragmatism came out. I was like, I cannot make this,
like I can't paint a picture. How do I do this?
Like what you said, and it's like literally OK, choose a

(01:59:18):
thing that's bigger than me. My higher power is anything that
has the operate like the abilityto operate within itself.
This. Just always and then like I play
that to like how I work and that's what it is.
And then I left it there becausethe the black and whites, it's
like I'll think about everythingand then not let go of the one I

(01:59:42):
landed on. Kind of what you mentioned, like
right until the wheels fall off.Yeah.
And so yeah, being able to differentiate is my favorite
all. Right, sorry to cut you off
You're good. Your sponsorship or step working
moment. Yeah, well, OK, so like my, you
know, I have a quite a. A lot of moments of like, yeah,

(02:00:05):
being sponsored, you know, favorites, most of them being in
the last five years. It could be, yeah.
It could be sponsor or sponsor. Well, yeah, no, I have a lot of
that. But like just most recently, I
would say as a sponsor, I reallyenjoyed us going over cats.
Step one and two, we had a moment in in in my car.

(02:00:28):
Like we had a long moment. I mean there's and that's OK.
That's another point I'd make islike, I don't I am.
Listen, the most important thingto me is a sponsor.
Sometimes this being I don't even try.
Like it is the most present I have ever been in my life.
So I could easily say that everymoment being a sponsor is my

(02:00:49):
favorite because God, it feels good to be present.
There's nothing else like I haveADHD.
That should be. Wilent my phone goes on silent.
Like, yeah, my brain does still go in many directions while
while my sponsee is talking, butlike, I'm, I'm so present, I'm
so invested. I'm so fully immersed, right?
And anyway, so we were in my carand, and, and we were opening

(02:01:13):
old wounds and it was like the most bonding I've ever done.
You know, I feel in that moment,that's what it felt like was I
was just so intensely bonding with this person that I had come
to care about like that I kind of cared about possibly too
deeply from the moment we met. But no, I just I, I just had

(02:01:34):
always felt like I had this weird sense that I that I needed
to be in in Kat's life. Like I like I had a purpose and
and I could help help in some way, right.
So anyway, it felt like the actualization of that in some in
some way. I don't.
I'm not. You being seen by yourself too,

(02:01:54):
like I'm like a validation of yourself for yourself.
Oh yeah, like actualization of the service that you, that you.
Right, the goal. The purpose, the reason I was,
you know, lived out of addiction, right?
Sometimes it feels that way. And I'm not saying that moment
was like, like, I don't mean to too.

(02:02:17):
It just sounds kind of grandiose, right?
I don't mean to be grandiose, but in the moment when you're
really present, it can feel. Yeah, like I like I said, the
like everything. Greatest high?
Everything that happened, it makes sense.
Everything. Yeah, like I am being.
I went through all that for a reason.
I am a beacon, you know, I'm a conduit for this person.
Use me as you need, you know I'mlistening.

(02:02:39):
I'm. I'm here to validate your
experience, you know, and all that humble shit.
So anyway. I am your lighthouse, Eric.
Yeah. And and so like, anyway, that
that's definitely that that was definitely like a recent
experience that but I have many,you know, and I have.
Exactly, there's no it. I would pick one.

(02:03:01):
Right, right. As a sponsee, I would say it was
like that seventh step, that first seventh step.
You know, I also enjoyed hangingup on my sponsor when she told
me to add rebelliousness to my 6th step.
But anyway. Rebelliousness.
Fuck you, bitch. Yeah, but did that that quite
literally that also when she told me to wait six months and

(02:03:22):
sit in my sixth steps after I read it or I wrote it the entire
thing in a 24 hour period. No, those are the least
favorite. No, but I hit I really actually
all all this time I thought people are talking about 7th
step and like hitting their knees.
That is not going to happen to me.
And then guess what the fuck? I was so desperate.

(02:03:43):
So yeah, I actually did, you know?
And huh, you. Prayed.
I dropped to my knees in a. Shower.
Not all of this are godless heathens like you, Eric.
No, I am a godless heathen, but I but I prayed.
I prayed and it wasn't about. That's my point though.
It's not a it wasn't about. I didn't know who the fuck I was
praying to. It didn't matter, it was my.
Default is always Joe Pesci. For me, it was quite literally

(02:04:07):
the, the day that I realized that I didn't need to know to
box it up like you were saying, David.
I realized that actually being open minded needed to stay
around forever. Actually, it needs to be
anything that operates as a system within itself and seems
to, because that's organization and you know, all these traits
that I don't. Exactly because and like that's

(02:04:27):
what I ultimately finally got through like my with two and
three was like, I am, you know, in the universal scope.
I'm a grain of sand. You know I'm an Ant like my
possible even in my wildest imagination of whatever a higher
power could be right would fall.So vastly so.

(02:04:48):
Vastly short of what it actuallyis that I'm just going to stop
trying. Exactly.
I'm just going to. That's whatever.
Like I think it's something it'sit's greater than me and it is
completely unfathomable, unfathomable my.
Brain. My brain cannot perceive I'm.
Like, you know, to throw a little shade whatever little
book is out there that said thisis it.
No, it's not. Yeah, exactly.

(02:05:09):
No God can be encapsulated in a fucking book.
It cannot happen because there is no possibility that you know,
God that created everything in existence could possibly be
understood in, you know, 32 chapters.
Right. Like I'm the definition of
agnostic, you know, I remain open minded and the the lack of

(02:05:31):
definition of it is my higher power.
Yeah. You know what I mean?
By all means, if that book helpsyou to become a better person
and treat people as a better, asa better servant of whatever
you're doing, keep your book andkeep reading it.
Yeah, keep. Doing it.
Yeah, I'm not here to shame you in any way, shape or form.
Like if it is working keep doingit.
Yeah. As long as you're being a good

(02:05:51):
person about it. But that's all I got.
I have final thoughts. Anybody, Anybody.
Do you have any, Eric? No, no, I think, I think, I
think we covered it. All right.
Thank you. I'd like to give a round of
applause to everybody who participated today.
Thank you very much Tara, Cat and Jet for being such a lovely

(02:06:14):
Jet being in a. Fantastic man.
God, it makes me want a Pomeranian.
You are a Pomeranian. Me too, it's OK.
No, you're not. I don't know what kind.
Your mom's a Pomeranian. Your mom's a Pomeranian.
Sorry. I'm a Savannah cat.
David. A little bit of you wish.
You know, I brought the media around you were today.
Smush faced Himalayan. I I'm no, I'm a Savannah.

(02:06:37):
Savannah. I like smush faced kitties, but
anyway. Oh yeah, they're adorable.
They can't breathe. I know.
I know Eric. I know Eric.
You're. Allergic to everything.
That's why it makes sense. I have a second cousin who
breeds them and it's deeply upsetting.
My my wife has a cousin who breeds pugs and like it gets bad
where like they only have one eye or like and it's just like

(02:06:59):
stop breeding now. Abominations.
Like they can't exist. Yeah, they can't breathe.
OK everybody, we have digressed again, but that's why you listen
to us because we're the best. Humbly everybody, thank you for
joining us once again. Go to all our social media
outlets, Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, YouTube, like, share,

(02:07:20):
subscribe, please become part ofthe Home group and you know,
join our Patreon and help us keep the mics on because we are
self supporting. But most importantly, everybody
out there. Stay safe and stay clean.

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