025: Trump Has a Jeffrey Epstein Problem feat. Will Sommer

Will Sommer is a senior reporter at The Bulwark, where he authors the newsletter “False Flag.” A longtime chronicler of right-wing media, Will joins the show to discuss the fallout facing the Trump Administration as it backs off its promise to release the “Epstein Files.” After years of promising to unveil new information about one of the highest profile pedophiles in United States history, the administration has reversed course entirely — leading some MAGA movement figures to call for resignations of key administration figures.

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Episode Transcript

(00:00):
Are you still talking about Jeffrey Epstein?
This guy's been talked about foryears.
You're asking? We have Texas, we have this.
We have all of the things. And are people still talking
about this guy this? Welcome back to posting through

(00:44):
it. I'm Jared.
And I'm Mike. I had a great time in Alaska,
but I should be back for about the rest of the summer.
That might be the last break fora little bit, but we've got some
fun episodes for you guys comingup this summer, including this
one, which is all about the MAGArights reaction to the release

(01:05):
or I guess non release of the rumored Jeffrey Epstein files.
As always, you can find a link to the tip jar we have set up in
the episode description. Can throw us a buck or two here
or there. It helps the show keep going and
we appreciate it a ton. Every time I get an e-mail that

(01:25):
says somebody's thrown in a couple bucks, even if it's just
a dollar, it it makes me feel validated like we're we're doing
something here that that people are finding value in.
So thank you for all of that. Before we bring in Will Summer
to talk about the reactions to the non release of Moore Jeffrey
Epstein files, I thought it would be useful for us to walk

(01:48):
through kind of exactly what happened there and just some
background on that situation so that anybody who does not
already have worms in their brain can have an adequate
amount of worms before we start talking to Will.
So let's hit the brakes third inreverse and cover our bases
here. You got your bucket list, your

(02:09):
grocery list, your list of things to do.
You got to list all your wishes.That's a wish list, dude.
You got your Amazon and Santa Claus.
And but I know a list that don'texist, but it's so do you.
It's the Epstein list. It's a mystery list with the
twist. It's a myth of a list that we
all just missed being an optimist, not a passing miss.
If you went to persist the probably best you forget that

(02:30):
list. I won't.
Worry Jeffrey Epstein, or as I like to call him, Jeff, was a
financier born and raised in NewYork City in in the mid 1970s he
started working at Bear Stearns of Wall Street Investment Bank
and in 1982 went on to create his own firm, which reportedly
managed individual and family fortunes of clients with $1

(02:52):
billion or more. Who he managed money for largely
remains a mystery to this day, apart from Leslie Wexner, a
billionaire retail tycoon behindthe brands like Bath and Body
Works and Victoria's Secret. He brought properties in
Florida, New Mexico and New Yorkand ran in social circles that
connected him to the world's elite class, politicians,

(03:13):
celebrities, business leaders and so on.
He ran his business from a private island in the Caribbean
off Saint Thomas. He had a fleet of private
planes. Despite the fact he was running
with high profile people, Presidents Bill Clinton and
Donald Trump, the magician DavidCopperfield, Prince Andrew,
former Israeli Prime Minister Ihad Barack, actor Kevin Spacey,

(03:35):
lawyer Alan Dershowitz, late NewMexico Governor Bill Richardson,
former Vice President Al Gore, the list goes on.
He kept a pretty low profile forsomebody at that level of
society. He would not give interviews to
the media. He reportedly did not use e-mail
profiles from the early 2000s noted his low profile as if

(03:57):
there was this air of mystique around his life and career.
One quote I read in a publication likened him to
Gatsby from The Great God Gatsbynovels.
Then in 2005, the parents of a 14 year old girl told Florida
police that Epstein molested herin his home in Palm Beach, FL
Police found photos of girls throughout his house, according

(04:18):
to some at the time, like columnist Michael Wolff.
Epstein's proclivities, we should call them I guess for
young girls, was an open secret in the social circles he was a
part of. In a 2002 article for New York
Magazine, Donald Trump is quotedas saying he's a lot of fun to
be with. It is even said that he likes

(04:38):
beautiful women as much as I do,and many of them are on the
younger side. He struck A plea deal with
federal prosecutors in 2008 thatallowed him to avoid federal
charges. That also ended an FBI
investigation that sought to determine whether there were
more victims or if other powerful people participated in
his sex crimes against children.That deal was brokered by

(04:58):
Alexandra Acosta, who was secretary of Labor in the first
Trump era. Despite all this, he kept his
financial assets and his properties.
Dozens of additional women accused Epstein of sexual abuse
in 2018, prompting the Department of Justice to open a
new investigation in 2019. Eleven years later, Epstein was
arrested again on charges of sextrafficking underage girls.

(05:20):
After he was denied bail, he washeld in New York's Metropolitan
Correctional Center prison in Lowerman, Manhattan.
It became clear he was going to spend at least one year in
prison, and shortly after he died there.
Medical examiners ruled his death a suicide, and federal
officials said they found no reason to suspect foul play.

(05:40):
The public was not so convinced.Epstein was connected to a host
of powerful figures who certainly might have an interest
in making sure that the trial did not happen and that new
information would never come to light.
It was also confusing how his suicide even happened.
Why was his cell mate moved out the day before he died?
Where were the guards that were supposed to be watching him?

(06:02):
What did surveillance video actually show?
He'd apparently tried to kill himself weeks earlier, so how
could this possibly have been allowed to happen?
Many people, including countlessright wing media personalities
who push anti government conspiracy theories, took these
questions to the extremes, floating a whole host of
explanations as to what happened.

(06:23):
Perhaps the Clintons had him murdered.
Maybe Epstein had blackmail and powerful people who abused young
girls with him. Maybe Epstein even kept a list
of those people and this was some kind of intelligence
operation or or some sort of clandestine thing.
We have no reason to believe that this client list that you

(06:43):
see everybody talking about online exists.
It could exist, but we have no reason to believe it
necessarily. Reporters like Julie K Brown,
who's maybe best positioned journalist to weigh in on this
matter, she broke a lot of stories on it.
Her reporting in 2017 and 2018 was led to more charges against
Epstein and and identified nearly eighty of his victims.

(07:06):
There is no Jeffrey Epstein client list, period.
It's a figment of the internet'simagination and a means to just
slander people, Brown said. Thanks to unsealed documents,
people tied to Epstein are already known.
The idea there is a secret, moredamning list is likely a
fantasy. It's a skeleton key type thing

(07:28):
that animates a lot of conspiratorial thinking that
there's some smoking gun out there that can undo the whole
web in one turn. With that said, there is still
plenty of information we don't know about Epstein.
To this date, much of it remainssecret, classified inside the
federal government. And when Epstein died, so did

(07:48):
the chances of that material appearing at his trial.
Many of the people who pushed these theories about Epstein,
that there was a secret list that would implicate their
political enemies, that the federal government in deep state
was covering up what Epstein wasdoing, and that some powerful
people might have had him murdered inside a prison, well,

(08:08):
those people are in charge of the government now.
Trump promised on the campaign trail in 2024 that if people
elected him, he would declassifythe case files.
Cash Patel and Dan Bongino, 2 influencers turned lawmakers,
made their living in the last decade, Hawking a host of
Epstein conspiracy theories and playing Footsie with communities

(08:30):
that peddle adjacent ones like QAnon.
And while they're running the FBI now, Exciting stuff if
you're obsessed with Epstein andconvinced that Trump is fighting
the Deep State. So flash forward to February.
Attorney General Pam Bondi parades a group of 15 social
media influencers, Lips of TikTok, Rogan, O'hanley, and at
least two that promoted Pizzagate theories, Jack Posobic

(08:53):
and Mike Cernovich, in front of the White House with binders
containing Part 1 of the Epsteinfiles.
It thrilled Trump supporters until they realized that the
binders contained exactly 0 new revelations about Epstein and
that most of the documents they contained were already made
public. MAGA diehards remember this day

(09:14):
as Binder Gate. Trying to save face, Pam Bondi
and Kash Patel promised the public that they were working to
declassify more materials which were under review.
Patel said in a press release that the time that there would
be no cover ups, no missing documents and no stone left
unturned. Bondi excited Trump fans further
when she appeared to confirm theexistence of a long rumoured
client list that online conspiracies believe Epstein

(09:37):
kept telling a Fox News host that it was sitting on her desk
to review. The DOJ may be releasing the
list of Jeffrey Epstein's clients that really happened.
It's sitting on my desk right now to review.
That's been a directive by President Trump.
I'm reviewing that. I'm reviewing JFK files, MLK
files. That's all in the process of

(09:58):
being reviewed because that was done at the directive of the
president from all of these. Agents At a press briefing
Monday, White House press secretary Karen Leavitt seemed
to imply that Bondy's previous comments were misunderstood
during a campaign meeting Tuesday.
Bondy insisted she had only beenreferring to the Epstein client

(10:18):
case file and not the Epstein client list.
And Jared, I would like to note there is a mini conspiracy here
among Trump fans that when KarenLevitt made that comment, she
took off her cross necklace on purpose.
I saw that. I love it.
It's one of my favorite. It's probably my favorite little
you know, it's like, it's like your favorite band that is not

(10:41):
well known or whatever. That's my favorite conspiracy
theory of 2025, that Karen Leva takes off her cross when she's
telling lies. Yeah, and that's only when, oh,
my God, it's my brain is so poisoned with this stuff.
I just get like Q Anon slogans of like, their symbolism will be
their downfall. Like that is the first thing
that pops in my head anyway. So months go by with no updates.

(11:06):
Then in May, Kash Patel and FBI Deputy Director Dan Bongino
start to catch some flak from MAGA supporters after they said
they agreed with the initial assessment that Epstein died by
suicide. Billionaire Elon Musk claimed in
June that the release was delayed because Trump was named
in the Epstein files, further stocking skepticism among MAGA

(11:27):
supporters. Then last Monday, the FBI sent
A2 page unsigned memo to the DOJstating it found no basis to
release any more material, that a client list did not exist, and
that Epstein didn't blackmail individuals who may have
participated in acts of child sex abuse with him.
Since then, the Trump White House line seems to be taking

(11:49):
the tone of oh come on, aren't you sick of this shit?
They're dismissive, combative and tight lipped about what
happened. Needless to say, Trump
supporters were furious. Influencers who participated in
February binder stunt at the White House fumed at the news.
Rogan DC Drano O'hanley has 2.2 million followers on X claim the

(12:10):
Trump administration was engagedin a shameful cover up to
protect the most heinous elites.Jack Pozobic remarked that it
was incredible how utterly mismanaged this Epstein mess has
been. Cernovich urged Trump to change
the situation. No one is believing the Epstein
cover up. This will be part of your

(12:31):
legacy. Laura Loomer called on Bondi to
resign for lying to the Americanpeople.
Alex Jones, creator of Infowars,said in a video posted on X that
A2 page memo made him want to throw up, and he appeared to be
choking back tears. I mean, it's just you, you
cannot see it any other way. So I'm the, I just got to the

(12:52):
office. I'm going to go throw up
actually. And I, this only happens every
few years when something really,really bad happens or something.
I mean, I'm physically going to going to puke.
Probably right now. My mouth is watering right now.
It's because because I have integrity and, you know, I just
really need the Trump ministration to succeed and to

(13:15):
save this country. And they're doing so much good.
And then for them to do something like this tears my
guts out. So as we're recording today,
countless mega personalities arecalling on Pam Bondi to resign.
It seems like she's the one they've decided needs to take
the fall for all of this. And that's that's more or less,

(13:37):
I think, where things are. On today's episode.
We've brought on Will Summer, a long time friend to the show and
a reporter for The Bulwark. Will is one of the foremost
chroniclers of the MAGA movementin its media ecosystem.
This is bound to be a really funconversation and you're not
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back. Let's get back to the episode
joining posting through. We have Will Summer.
He's a senior reporter at the Bulwark where he writes A
newsletter called False Flag. Great name for a newsletter,
Will. Thank you.

(16:27):
He's also the author of the bookTrust the Plan, which is all
about the Q Anon movement. It's a great read.
Will is a friend of the show back when it was called Shit
Post. Now posting through it.
This has got to be probably, what, your third or fourth time
on. Yeah, no, I mean, I, you know,
we did it sometimes in your DC apt.

(16:47):
I mean, I remember, you know, I'm an.
OJ yeah. That little windowless room.
Yeah, like, yeah. So first question for you, Will.
I saw that Kash Patel's girlfriend has now gone public
to insist that she's actually not an agent of Mossad.
Can we get a Fact Check from youon this?
Well, I think she's also she is definitely like a country

(17:09):
singer, if I'm recalling correctly.
She's a singer of some kind. So she's she's sort of an
interesting character to add to the mix.
But I think the allegation is that like, she's Jewish and
maybe she says she's Christian, but she has like, I guess kind
of dark features, hair. And some people are like, well,
obviously she's Mossad. And This is why Cash is is
running cover on the Epstein case there.

(17:30):
There, there are definitely no Christians with dark features,
right? Like there's no like people from
Latin America, anything like that, I mean, who have dark
features who happen to be also Christian.
So it seems it seems like thingsare going really well for them
on this whole Epstein stuff. But given given those kind of
public statements, but I think before we dive deep on Epstein

(17:55):
and how the mag movement has been reacting to it, we should
zoom out a bit. Let's let's talk about some
stuff here. I, you don't know Will also, and
I also was in that windowless room with, with you, Jared, way
back in the day. And, yeah, and, you know, when I
first became aware of Will's reporting it, you know, it was

(18:17):
around the time that Pizzagate was starting to become a bigger
and bigger phenomenon. And in fact, I remember
writings, you know, writing stories about at the time and
linking to your, I think you said the Washington,
Washingtonian, the. Washington City Paper a long
ago. Washington City Paper, I guess.
OK, there you go. Yeah.
I think that was like the first stories that I think I I think
you like were in, you were in, you were in touch with with the

(18:40):
management there and everything else.
James Alfontes And I'm just curious about that time, you
know, did it, do you feel like it just sort of the obsession
with pedophilia just sort of came out of the, you know, out
of nowhere? Did it just sort of come like
directly from influencers like Mike Sternovich, Jack pozobic,
the people who are sort of pushing at the most?

(19:01):
Or was this something that was always kind of always in MAGA?
You know, that's a good question.
I think, you know, on one hand, I would, I, I, I am tempted to
say and it, and I think there's a lot of evidence to suggest
that. I think the pizzagate was
probably the moment where like the idea of like a democratic
pedophile ring really like became mainstream on the right

(19:21):
or even on sort of like the fringe right.
You know, obviously I think, youknow, people love to say like,
you know, well, you know, we canlook at the Satanic panic and
you know, say there are are, are, are these kind of
antecedents we could look at? I mean, I I think even
culturally we could look at liketo catch a predator as as like
the idea of like pedophiles and and you know, I certainly know
that, like on 4 Chan they would like track certain pedophiles

(19:42):
and stuff like like that. But I think like as a sort of as
like what we look at now as likethe Epstein mania or what what
was Q Anon stuff like this. I think really like Pizzagate is
kind of like the most, the most obvious like recent moment that
that began. Everybody, I assume who's
listening to this has some idea about Pizzagate.
But like the short of it is thatthere was this kind of like, you

(20:03):
know, I don't know, sometimes itwas layered with Satanism,
sometimes there was anti-Semiticelements.
It was, you know, it was malleable, basically.
But there's this idea that this restaurant that that often
hosted Democrats had a pedophilia dungeon at the bottom
of. And this, of course, I appeared
in the emails related to HillaryClinton's campaign.

(20:23):
I was like, Jared, do you? What do you remember about that
time? And just like the way pedophilia
was kind of portrayed by the right and then.
I mean, I always kind of put myself in the shoes of the
truest believers of conspiracy theories.
That's sort of where I start in trying to understand them and

(20:43):
like what that means to them, right?
So in the minds of somebody thatfollowed Pizzagate or believes
in Pizzagate or followed Q Anon,which had a lot of similar
themes but was definitely distinct, this is like the
ultimate bad thing that your political opposition can do.

(21:05):
This is not calling them corrupt.
This is not calling them hypocritical.
This is taking the dial to 11 and saying no, no, no, no, no,
these people are evil. And I think that is kind of the
function it had at the time is taking Democrats in the eyes of
MAGA and elevating them not justto these are our political

(21:29):
opponents, they have bad ideas and our ideas are better.
But to say our political opponents are truly evil and
they engage in one of the most universally understood evil
things you can do, which is crimes against children,
specifically sex crimes against children.
So that that's kind of the function and the the context

(21:50):
that I have with it as it kind of spun off or inspired or was
channeled. However you would want to put it
into things like Q and on. And then things like the Jeffrey
Epstein obsession. That kind of core theme I think
remained consistent, which is that there is this network of
satanic, super powerful pedophiles and they're all your

(22:14):
political enemies. And I think that is like with
this Jeffrey Epstein stuff, thisobsession over a client list
that probably doesn't exist. It would be kind of weird if it
did if if Jeffrey Epstein just kept a list of like, you know,
what are we to expect? He sat around his island with
like a little moleskin journal and was like, oh, my favorite

(22:35):
pedophile friends and drew little hearts next to them based
on how much of A pedophile they were or something, right?
It's like, but they expected this kind of list not only to
exist, but also like, this was going to be incriminating,
right? Like, this would justify all
kinds of like legal actions against people.
This would justify, you know, hell raining down on all of

(22:55):
their political opponents that they thought were involved in
this. So I I think that is kind of
like what kind of undergirded all that anticipation for these
Epstein file releases and why the disappointment has been so
just like catastrophic in certain parts of the MAGA
movements. Will can I get a gut check on

(23:16):
this if there's any? But if there's, if there's
anybody I would like gut check myself on on this stuff, it
would have to be you so well. Well, I think there's I mean,
you're right, I mean is sort of like the Epstein client list or,
you know, we can also think of things like the idea of like the
Q Anon the storm or whatever. It's like this moment, there's
me, this cathartic moment where my like not only political
enemies, but also like my cultural enemies, like

(23:38):
Hollywood, whatever, they will be wiped away and then the world
will be exactly how I want it. And so this isn't like people
with like actual ties to JeffreyEpstein, like Les Wexner, like
these people who are like powerful in some sense, but are
not like like mega world figureslike Bill Gates, although
obviously you had Epstein ties as well.
Maybe not a great example. Maybe Oprah, perhaps you know,

(24:01):
someone who that they that they are just like the people they
they fixate on is like this is an Epstein person really with no
evidence. But the moment that the that The
Client List was supposed to comeout was going to be huge.
And I think Epstein stuff is a little more like a little more
respectable to talk about in public because there actually
was so much weird stuff going onthere.
And you come off right like lessof a crazy person than if you

(24:24):
were talking about like Q in 2025 or Pizzagate.
It yeah, it's more like I read the headlines and I'm suspicious
and less like I read some posts on the Internet and now look
like. Yeah.
And so I think that's kind of become like the dominant thing.
And then suddenly, you know, Pambani comes out and says it's
it's over. You're not getting Christmas
this year, essentially. So pizzagate is like that

(24:46):
happens in like I think it sort of wraps up when the guy fires
his his gun inside by some guy who's who's since who's since
passed away. Q Anon is like starts like when
exactly what is the timeline like take us from take us from
the Pizzagate obsession to Q Anon to when Jeffrey Epstein

(25:11):
becomes so. So my theory on it, and the
reason why I want to start talking about this, I mentioned
this to Jared, is that like Jeffrey Epstein is real.
This is a real thing. Certainly more real than like Q
Anon everyone. Yeah, yeah.
I mean, well, there's real, I mean the real it's based on real
pedophilia, right? It's based on real rape and

(25:31):
abuse. That is quite shocking.
But my theory on this is just sort of it's this starts around
Pizzagate. Pizzagate sort of becomes Q
Anon. I don't know if that's a if you
disagree as like a leading expert on a sort of mutates.
It's sort of like, you know, like in video games when you
like killing a boss and then allof a sudden he dies halfway and
then all of a sudden he comes like twice as big with spikes on

(25:52):
him. That's sort of what what
happens. It comes, it comes Q Anon and
then, you know, Epstein becomes this big deal, but not
necessarily right away. It sort of takes a while for
them to give up the fake story and latch onto the real 1.
So if you could just take us through that, I'd love to hear
it. Yeah, sure.
So, you know, we have Pizzagate got kicking off in I believe

(26:15):
like October 2016, early Octoberwith the release of the, as you
mentioned, the Russia emails or the e-mail the Clinton campaign
emailed by Russia. And then it was pretty much
wrapped up by early December after the shooting at a comic
ping pong because suddenly it becomes a lot more toxic for
people to promote it. It's from sort of a practical

(26:36):
sense. It's kind of disproven because
they, you know, the guy tried toget in and didn't find any kids
there. And then also the common ping
pong guys starts to sue people like Alex Jones.
And so then we see this and also, you know, that Trump had
just won. And so there were there were
other things to focus on. Then October 2017, Trump is kind
of mired down and things like the Mueller probe and, you know,
he's not building the wall, thiskind of stuff.

(26:57):
Then suddenly Q pops on the scene and says, you know,
actually Trump is again engaged in a battle against the deep
state. And as part of the evidence of
this cabal, let's dredge up the old Pizzagate stuff that we left
us put aside for 10 months. And so then that runs like,
pretty hot and increasingly hot up until and really, really gets
going in the pandemic up until Biden wins.

(27:20):
And then that's when, you know, Q says, hey, you know, at one
point says like, stop talking about Q because people have kind
of keyed in that were lunatics possibly, you know, Q is fearful
of federal investigation and says time to wrap up Q.
And so then, you know, I think you're right.
But the thing to go back a little earlier in 2020 is that

(27:43):
Epstein, I believe, dies in the summer of 2020.
And so that is that becomes a huge driver of people to Q Anon.
But Epstein is also like perhapsthe most defensible part of Q
Anon to talk about. And so I think after the parts
about the storm or the, you know, all the underground
tunnels or whatever, the real like kind of hardcore
adrenochrome, that stuff falls away.

(28:04):
You know, I, I think the, the Epstein stuff continues humming,
But then, you know, there's Biden stuff, most of them.
I, I think there's a lot of COVID stuff that takes up a lot
of the add the oxygen in terms of right wing media for a while
and conspiracy theories. And then after that you have
yes, then it kind of starts bubbling up again and I would
say 2024. Right.

(28:25):
You know, Jared and I have have gone through many times the fact
that we were, we were out havingan adventure in Manhattan on the
day, on the day of the Epstein thing.
We were partying, you could say,and had a had an interest.
I mean, I think it absolutely captured the imagination of
everybody who is politically conscious on the right and the

(28:47):
left, right. And I can't remember a story
that inspired this, this kind offascination in my lifetime.
And maybe the only equivalent islike the, you know, is, is the,
is the Kennedy assassination or something like that, where it
just inspires this much creativethinking because it's hard for
people to sort of imagine that this guy had a private island
that he was using for, you know,these these sort of sex with

(29:12):
underage women and sort of setting up the with these very
rich people. You've got royalty, you know,
you've got political figures involved.
We don't know how much who did what exactly, not to, you know,
get into any kind of defamation territory.
But there's a lot of, like, veryfamous people, right?
Those are that famous photo of Bill Clinton, who is, you know,

(29:33):
repeatedly associated with Jeffrey Epstein.
And I don't remember which magazine it is, but they're both
kind of like looking back from like, an old desktop computer.
So this thing, I think it reallykind of inspired a lot of
creative thinking in people. And then you wind up in the
situation where we are now, where Trump, I, correct me if
I'm wrong, was perceived as a sort of vehicle for for finding

(29:56):
the truth about Epstein by a lotof his fans.
Well, and that's so bizarre on its own, right?
I mean, but yeah, you're right. I mean, Trump was seen in the
same way that, you know, we're sending him to kick down the
establishment in DC. Well, what is really the
ultimate establishment to these people is the pedophile cabal.
And, you know, I mean, Steve Bannon has been out just as

(30:17):
we're talking, saying, you know,Epstein is like a symbol of who
rules us or this determines who rules us.
If you're able to run this cabal, abusing children,
committing all these heinous crimes and the president and the
Justice Department are afraid totake you on, well, that's who
rules us. And so Epstein also became kind
of symbolic more broadly of like, populism or, you know,
finding out what's up with Epstein.

(30:38):
And yes, Trump was a symbol of, like, taking on Epstein despite,
you know, being tight with him at one point.
All the videos of them hanging out, you know, appointing as a
cabinet secretary the guy who gave Epstein the sweetheart
prosecution deal the first time.And, you know, the explanation
for that was always, like, Trumpwas bringing attention to the

(30:59):
Epstein deal by, like, bringing these people.
Into. The OR he was, he was
infiltrating Epstein's cabal. You know, that's why they're
hanging. Is that an extension of is it?
But is that an extension of likethe Q Anon stuff?
I mean, I like because because because I thought during Q Anon
that like Trump was supposedly like the idea, and again, you're
the expert here was that he was like the, you know, the vehicle

(31:22):
to expose the corrupt, pedophilic like tendencies of
the elites. Oh, yeah, definitely.
Yeah. So in the in the case of Q Anon
Trump, as you said, is is elected.
Basically the military approaches Trump and says, you
know, you're such a wonderful businessman.
We love The Apprentice. You need to run for office
because you're the only guy who isn't, like, beholden to the
cabal. And then, you know, you can team

(31:43):
up with us and we'll take down the cabal in the storm.
And so already there's this ideathat Trump is this, you know,
this kind of like, crusading Messiah figure.
And then, you know, Epstein, I think, because again, there's so
much genuine weird stuff with him, really becomes like the
face of the cabal or like the big mystery that needs to be
solved. Trump obviously did not end up

(32:05):
being a vehicle for it. You know, we talked about Binder
gate and some of that stuff before we brought you in.
Now, I I mean, on the heels of this unsigned FBI memo back to
the DOJ, that is like, well, we looked at everything and nothing
to see here, folks. That's that's a wrap, you know,

(32:26):
and then when Trump gets asked about it, his statement, it's
about like, you know, aren't yousick of hearing about this shit
already? Like come on, Epstein this,
Epstein that, Oh my God, like like acting like people are
losers for caring about it now, even though he promised on the
campaign trail that he would like release these files that
Pam Bondi, you know, they deny it now, but seemed in my

(32:49):
opinion, pretty clearly to be like, yes, The Client List is on
my desk. This client list that probably
doesn't exist actually. And the reaction that I'm seeing
or or have been seen over the past week, I would put into two
distinct categories, coping and seething.
That's two of my favorite categories.

(33:11):
Obviously, like there's people that are just furious, like
spitting mad, the Laura Loomers of the world, the Gunther
Eagleman who we talked about on a prior episode.
Is Gunther really mad about this?
He's mad. Because all, I mean, that guy,
all he does is suck Trump's cock.
I'm sorry, but like, I'm sorry, sorry this is a family show, but

(33:32):
I'm just surprised to hear he has any dissent.
At all the little kids covered barriers.
There goes our next ad read Mikethe You know he's mad.
It seems like the in prison they've picked out to blame is
Pam Bondi. And then there is also, you
know, some of that same almost QAnon esque 4D chess maneuvering.

(33:56):
That's like kind of the talking point that is bubbling up of
like, well, he's actually smart to not release this and this is
strategic. And this is like a long term
advantage saying without saying trust the plan.
What what's what's your take on the coping and the seething?
Yeah, Let me just let me just jump off that that thing you

(34:16):
just said about like, you know, Trump's doing 4D chess.
I was watching Tim pool I think Monday night right after this
happened. As one does.
Yeah, well, you know, honestly, I have to cook so much for the
family and I just like put on Tim pool in the evening or like
where all these characters and Ijust you know, my wife will walk
in and she'll just say like see some, you know, tatted up, you
know, dude, and she'll be like that seems like some guy you'd

(34:38):
be watching. So so like ex Marine or.
Meanwhile the kids, the kids arelike, Dad, doesn't the food have
any seasoning on it? Yes, I get locked in.
So, So, yeah, So. And they had this guest who said
basically, you know, I think thereality is because the world is
run by the title file cabal, Trump cannot dare to take them

(35:00):
on. And he realized that
unfortunately, and because the economy would be destroyed.
So I guess he decided we're justgoing to have to live and let
live with the cabal. And, you know, and I think
that's a great idea. And, you know, a couple people
on the temple panel were like, yeah, that makes sense to me.
So. So there's an example of the
kind of like the 4D chess, I think, you know, I'm glad you
brought up Gunther Eagleman. I think there's kind of like a

(35:20):
divide between people who are kind of like more provocateur
type MAGA people and like who are maybe more focused on like
they have to keep like a a bit more of an authentic
relationship with their audience.
So like a Laura Loomer, like a Steve Bannon versus someone who
is like very, but frankly, I think like wants a White House

(35:41):
invite or, or, or or you need tobe very connected to the
administration. So captured Gunther Eagleman.
Oh yeah, those two have been going.
By the way, anybody in the audience who's not like on X
regularly, it's like, what? What on earth?
These are our new this is like the president's court.
Yeah, Yes, it is and. And I think honestly, I was just

(36:02):
watching, you know, it's, it's it's always going down at the
turning point USA. You know, it's like the student
action summit this weekend and they've got they had Jack
vasobic, Steve Bannon and Charlie Kirk on stage.
And I, I think that really summed it up because the
different kind of ways to do it,because Charlie Kirk was saying,
you know, I think the real problem here is the media,
because the media won't ask Trump enough about Epstein and

(36:24):
that's why he doesn't think it'simportant.
And it's like, what are you? Talking about well.
The one time they did ask him and he was like, shut up, don't
ask me about that. And then you have then you have
Bannon who's just like, we need,we need a special prosecutor
and, and really riling up the crowd.
And then you have Jack posobic. And at one point, and this is
maybe not even to the point, butI just found this to be such a
fascinating moment. And obviously you guys have

(36:45):
heard Jack a lot. Jack was a Binders recipient.
Yeah, he, he he has a famous picture.
Well, it's famous. All the pictures associated with
Epstein now are famous. But like, you know, all the
pictures of the individual people were.
OK, stop everything I need to explain to the audience
basically a few months ago, whatwas this like?
February, March, what was it, February?

(37:06):
All these influencers receive binders that were supposedly
filled with, it was like Epsteinfiles, volume one or something,
right? Jack was one of them.
He was one of the first people to post a picture online of it.
I just need to break so the audience knows what we're
talking about. Sometimes we talk.
We talk over over everybody's head.
But the thing had nothing in it.It was all information.

(37:26):
And we covered this in a pod back in February, but it had no
nothing. It was stuff that was already
previously released in 2022. So that's what you're talking
about here. And then no, continue where you.
Were yes and so the the people involved in that a lot of them
ended up with egg on their face because once this thing they've
looked like, you know, we're here, we got the binders, they
have these really iconic photos and then it turns out basically

(37:49):
that Pam Bondi had kind of like hitched them to her wagon and
embarrassed them. And so these three guys are on
stage and I just have to read this quote.
Charlie Kirk puts his arm aroundJack and he goes, Jack was used
basically like they fooled you, Jack.
And then Bannon goes and like a SAP, you believed them.

(38:10):
And they were like not joking atall.
I mean, this is just like and Jack just like looks like he's
like eating a lemon. He looks so mad that they're.
Owning him, Oh my God. So these are the different.
Facts. Well, I noticed like some of his
own followers that maybe, you know, really into this shit and
maybe like really online and ready to turn on him.
I noticed them just sharing thatpicture that he posted with his

(38:33):
brow gets like especially wrinkled.
I don't know if it's all the stress of being a far right
bigot, but like he's he's it's like, well, it looks like a
Brillo pad and he's like he's holding his thing and he's like
making this face. I'm making a face to you guys on
Zoom, but and they keep sharing the picture.
The picture was already cringe, but it became more cringe before
he hyped it. Jack can't help but hype
anything that is anywhere near him.

(38:54):
And so people are now like his own people are sending it to
him. It's not just North Korea and
Palestine flag avatar leftists, you know who are who are also
involved in the interested in this material sharing it.
It's it's his own followers. It seems like are are are trying
to get him. Yeah.
Will, a question for you is, youknow, a big kind of agitator on

(39:18):
encouraging hostility over this has been Elon Musk.
You know, who is, I guess, no longer in the administration but
was for some time was a Trump booster, is now kind of doing
that classic move that we've seen in media a million times,
which is like, we're going to goindependent because both parties

(39:39):
are wrong. And then they're just like
Republicans still. He posted, OK, the reason these
files aren't coming out is because Trump is named in them.
And then another reason, you know, attacking Steve Bannon and
Steve Bannon and Elon Musk kind of feuded for a while saying
Steve Bannon is mentioned in this stuff too.

(40:02):
How do you see like his role in kind of stirring the pot here?
Because I think it. I mean, he owns the platform,
right? And the platform is at this
point now game to promote his post.
How do you understand his role in this?
I mean, I think it's, it's interesting.
I, I think certainly Elon's accusation that Trump is in the

(40:22):
files, You know, I'm curious if we ever know the full story
behind this DOJ memo. I wonder how much that played
into it of Trump being like, what is he talking about?
Like we need to close this thingnow in terms of like
manipulating XI. Do think that like, I mean,
we've seen over and over that he, he will manipulate the
platform to to suit his political advantage.
And so, you know, I mean, look, he's like paying a lot of these

(40:43):
right wing influencers. Impregnating some of them, Well,
I. Mean it's like a host of.
Opportunities. I'm sorry, I'm sorry.
I'm sorry, it's literally true. It's true, it's true.
And so, so with that in mind, I think there is a like both
financial and and, you know, in terms of engagement advantage
for people to really be, you know, going wild over Epstein's

(41:05):
stuff. You know, obviously we haven't
seen proof that. And look, I mean, we don't even
have to say Elon's manipulating that.
We can just assume that. I think if you're saying there's
a pedophile cover up, you're going to get better pick up then
if you're saying, you know, I think Pam Bondi is telling the
truth. I think that's a fair bet.
Elon Musk, right, We just mentioned him.
Wouldn't he have like a pretty high standard?

(41:26):
I I know he has very low standards with almost everything
he does apparently. But like, you can't just say
somebody is in the Epstein list without, you know, a president
without risking like, a catastrophic lawsuit if it's
not, if there's not some truth to it, am I wrong?
Well, you know, on one hand, Elon does like to call people

(41:48):
pedophiles. Right.
Oh, yeah. No, no, no.
He's got a history of that. But it is a like, that's a big,
that's a big bite. That's a big bite to take.
Yeah, no, I I agree. I mean, it is like if you
obviously we've seen so many twists and turns of this story,
but if you just like arrived at it and he said, you know, the
president's main bankroll guy and, you know, maybe one of his
top advisors is saying, you know, yeah, Trump's in the

(42:10):
pedophile list. You know, you, you say what?
Like if Biden, if Ron Klain had said that about Biden, it would
have been treated as a huge deal.
And and yeah, I mean, look, I think it's not out of the realm
of possibility that that that Elon would actually know this.
I mean, he was pretty intimatelyinvolved with the
administration. And so and, and also, as you
said, I mean Trump, Trump will sue anybody over anything and.

(42:31):
He's got his own workers all over the government right who
are feeding him information. Oh my gosh.
See, I, I think that this is thecore of the Epstein issue here.
Whereas Q Anon like really touched on on very few things
that felt real. The Epstein thing has a floor, a
foundation of truth that everyone can point to and look

(42:52):
at. And then the rest of it is all
little things that can send yourimagination so many different
directions, like Ghislaine Maxwell's father being, you
know, being associated with Mossad, right?
That sends people into like these, like, you know, all these
different directions and all theother ties, potential ties to
Israel that people can point to.That may be true or may not be

(43:13):
true as it relates to Jeffrey Epstein.
But it sends people into all these kind of like, you know, I
mean, it sends people spiraling and then all the famous people,
right? Like I said in in Trump's case
it could be real, but. Yeah, You had like, it was
Prince Andrew, right? It's like he gets asked about,
it's like sweating. This has something about how he
has a condition where he doesn'tsweat.
That's weird, right it. And yeah, like you said, whether

(43:36):
it is like foreign or domestic intelligence stuff, all the
powerful people that knew Epstein and spoke highly of him
before he was, you know, chargedthe first time and certainly the
second time. Or just that he had like all of
these clients, right? That his whole thing was like,
if you had less than a billion dollars, not interested.

(43:58):
So it's like he had like the upper crust of society.
And aside from Les Wexner, it's it's pretty opaque.
Like there's rumors about like maybe he had some Rockefeller
money under his management. Maybe he had this person or that
person's man money, but it's like we we still don't even
really understand like how he made all of this money, right?

(44:19):
So. It's like a, it's like a
freelancer in journalism who youknow, is only getting paid like
$6000 a year. But like his living norms, Like
where is that coming from? So will I I wrote a piece for
MSNBC and and kind of made this argument and I'm curious to get
your take on it, which is basically that unlike the Trump

(44:43):
administration is no stranger tofailed promises, right?
I mean, how many things during the first administration and
even this administration have they promised and just not
fulfilled on how many times did the Q Anon people get their
hopes up only to rationalize it away later?
But I, I think this is like potentially way more politically

(45:04):
damaging to them. And I think this is a real
liability to them. And I don't think Trump going
out on TV and saying, aren't youbored of this?
Shut up, like is necessarily going to work for them in this
case because they've especially during this Trump
administration, you know, they've courted these weird
right wing influencers for so long, right?

(45:25):
I I mean, since the early start of the campaign, but they've
really taken it up a notch to the point where like Jack
Pasovic is travelling with the Pentagon or like, you know, Mike
Cernovich of all people is they're like, who do we need to
go hold a binder? This guy, you know, it.
It's like they, they become so amazed with them that I think

(45:46):
there actually is like a real political liability, right?
It's like they've crawled. They they've been feeding this
bear and they've run out of foodto feed the bear, but the bear
is still hungry. And now they're realizing
they're in a cage with the bear,right?
It's sort of the way I think about it.
But I'm curious what your take is on it.
And like, how politically damaging could this be?

(46:07):
I mean, I expect like almost allof these profiles to eventually
turn the corner and come back toPolish the boots of Daddy Trump
because they have to, right? It's what their whole, like,
career and notoriety is based on.
If he's gone or like, if they are seen as disloyal to him or
betraying him, that that's like lights out for them potentially.

(46:29):
Like Laura Loomer is not going to like, make a pivot and then
land a job on the news desk at CBS, right?
Like the Free Press is not hiring cat to write columns,
right? Like so, so there's like there's
sort of this like almost Catch 22 situation where it's like, do
you die on the hill or like die on the other hill, right?

(46:51):
Yeah, And I I think the way around that is you have to blame
the people around Trump, right? And so you say, as we're seeing,
I mean, the knives are clearly being sharpened for Pam Bondi.
I mean, we're in such a weird position where like Laura
Loomers tweets about Dan Bonginothreatening to resign, Cash
Patel being furious, you know, seem to be pretty reliable or at

(47:12):
least are like some kind of smoke signal.
We we have to interpret, you know, that I knew it was over
for Pam Bondi and it's not over yet.
But like I just saw as soon as Jack was sobic started saying
she was just like Hillary Clinton and saying what does it
even matter about Benghazi or now Liz Wheeler, who's one of
the other binders recipients, she's saying she's a she's

(47:32):
acting like a pick me girl. So, you know, she's kind of
getting at your various criticism.
But I think that it is a it's a tough situation for these right
wing influencers to to navigate.But I think it is really like
politically damaging for Trump potentially.
This is like such an emotional thing and it's so much clearer
to understand than like, you know, mismanaging DHS or

(47:54):
Medicaid cuts or something like that.
It's and then, you know, I thinkit's really encapsulated by the
like, shut up already about Epstein quote from Trump that I
think can just be sort of endlessly.
Clipped This is a point we haven't touched on yet, but I'm
curious to hear your thoughts about about the fact that the
people we're talking about here in in Trump's world and Trump's

(48:14):
government are themselves, you know, influencers, right?
Like they're and I think this has like a number of different.
I mean, Pam Bondi, no, but like she's a tick.
She's basically a tick above influencer in terms of
seriousness, But like, you know,Cash Patel was like a you know,
I mean, he's like a grifter. He's like an online grifter.
I mean, he does have experience of some kind, but that's like,

(48:38):
you know, mostly what the, the, the reason he got the job is the
being an influencer and Dan Mongino, I mean, yes, a former
officer or whatever he was, but you know, an influencer, a guy
who would grind up lemons in a blender for anybody who's ever
seen that clip, I don't know, itwas years ago.
And, and these are people who had an audience, like the people

(49:00):
were excited to see them becauseof their work as influencers.
And as influencers, they had to be on board with these
pedophilia conspiracies. So I think that like that is
really backfiring now because you have people who are, who are
kind of, I mean, correct me if I'm wrong, talking about this
issue, talking about the pedophilia dungeons, talking
about whatever other thing basedon reality or fantasy.

(49:22):
And now they're the ones who are, who are, who are turning
around like, you know, covering their genitals and being like,
we didn't see anything. You know, I mean, I, I feel like
it's, it, it's really hurting. It's it'd be, it'd be almost
easier if it was like a real topcop type, you know who's a
Trumpy lifelong FBI person. Yeah.
I mean, look, I I think we can see the difference between, you

(49:43):
know, Todd Blanch, who's the deputy assistant deputy attorney
general, who is not really like a MAGA media figure just came
out and he's like, yeah, get over it.
You know, this is the memo. You know, that's what we found.
Move on. Whereas, you know, Dan Bongino
appears to be in the total meltdown over this.
I mean, he has taken like a mental health day on Friday to

(50:04):
Mull whether he wants to resign because he's so mad about it.
And I think, you know, even before this, we saw that Bongino
was like really obsessed with his public image.
He was constantly tweeting like,you know, stop saying I'm not
doing anything about like the Jansik pipe bomber or the the
deep state traders. Like I'm working really hard.
So clearly, I think he's lookinginto his kind of post

(50:26):
administration career, whether that's, you know, next week or
in four years. And he's saying like, I can't
just, like, be falling on my sword all the time for Trump.
Yeah. So, Will, as we wrap up here,
I'm curious, just zooming out, can I get a vibe check from you
on how the first Trump administration is going?
Because we've talked about on this show a bit about just kind

(50:48):
of the sense that the air has fallen out of the sails here in
a lot of ways. I mean, there will always be
Trump sycophants who praise him until the moment I guess he
croaks or something and probablyeven still then, you know, I
mean, that's just how two party electoral politics work.
It's like they turn into celebrities larger than life

(51:10):
people who like will never see wrong done by them.
But that's not enough to like win elections or win popular
support. This, you know, big beautiful
budget bill or whatever has likesome of the worst public opinion
polling ever for a single piece of legislation.
The ICE raids are declining in popularity quite quickly.

(51:33):
And something you said on a previous episode, Mike, I
thought was insightful was like there was this attitude when
Trump came in that like, you know, electing him back in as a
felon. You know, it's just this
ultimate middle finger, like even maybe even more so than the
first time Trump was elected to just be like, fuck you, we don't
care. This is our guy.

(51:55):
And now you have the guy, this guy be like like the 4th episode
we've mentioned this captive dreamer weirdo, but like his
profile picture doesn't have theMAGA hat in it anymore.
A lot of these influencers are is.
It still David Koresh. I he started like a due account
or something I. Don't know, he's got 2 accounts.
One of them is David Koresh without the Baga hat.

(52:17):
I want to just, you know, not tospike the football on that, but
we did an episode that was mostly about him and he he
clipped it and like shared it somany times that it made an
evidence that he was, he was listening and re listening to
it. And then like the next day got
rid of the MAGA hat because we made fun of it was like, I, you
know, I believe I described him as like a little muppet with a

(52:37):
MAGA hat that you would see on your timeline.
And I think he started to feel like, well, I'm a bit more
serious of a fascist thinker than that.
But but but yeah, it's just likea lot of these guys are kind of
stepping back. You know, you're starting to see
even the big pro Trump influencers like Tim Poole and
stuff occasionally like kind of break character and like get mad

(53:00):
at things. And it just kind of feels like
when you've been at a party for too long and everybody's just
like kind of standing around, you're still having fun, I
guess. But like you can tell people are
like thinking about like where they're going to go next in the
night. I'm curious if you agree with
that, if you see it the same way.
Obviously, this this is just like our opinions for whatever

(53:22):
that's worth. What's your read?
You know, as somebody who like chronicled the whole first one,
you know the second one, where do you get that same sense?
Are there any like big differences between Trump one
and Trump 2 that stand out to you?
Yeah, I think that's a good analysis.
I mean, I, I think sort of the, the people who latched on to
Trump because it was like, cool,you know, and I, I put that in,

(53:45):
you know, quotation marks. Very.
It was sort of like an edgy thing to do.
Was based, you know. I mean it, Yeah.
He was based and, you know, another group is sort of like
the the sort of like bro comedian podcasters who seem to
be like absolutely manning the lifeboats this week over the
Epstein stuff. I mean, Andrew Schultz, who, you
know, memorably, I mean like thebasement IQ level here with the

(54:07):
famously gave the quote where hewas like, I like Trump because
he gets laid, you know, and he says bad stuff and now he's
saying, what do you mean the Epstein finally?
Does he think we're idiots? I think that's like a very
powerful idea among this kind oflike quasi disaffected voter
audience where they like the idea of being like thought of as
an idiot or that like having your intelligence insulted, I

(54:29):
think is like very powerful. And then, you know, Shane
Gillis, who was like not quite all the way there, but is
similarly saying like, wait a minute, you know, Trump was like
really buddies with Epstein though, right?
And, you know, I think these aresort of powerful memes that the
administration would not really like to be out there.
And and, you know, I think it's classic, like they've exhausted
all their political capital, at least for now, getting Bill, the

(54:50):
beautiful Bill across the line. So, you know, we'll see.
But I do, I do agree with you that I think, you know this kind
of like crazy fervor and, you know, this exultation over the
election seems to have dissipated.
I want to bring up something else on this on the same point,
which is kind of the kind of the, the darker aspects of the
Epstein story, at least in termsof online politics and stuff

(55:12):
like that, which is there are noshort edge of anti-Semitic, like
deeply anti-Semitic far right people online.
Like in fact, they're growing bythe day, I think it feels like
to me. And at the same time, we have
this obvious horror going on in Gaza, which is, you know, deeply

(55:34):
disturbing and goes, it continues to go on and on and on
and on and getting so much worsesince Trump, Trump took power
and Netanyahu being like an essentially completely corrupt,
indefensible figure at the at the helm over in Israel.
And you have Trump like, you know, basically like lathering,

(55:55):
lathering him up, you know, rubbing his shoulders, telling
is this guy's the greatest guy I've ever seen.
The Epstein thing seemed there are these really persistent
anti-Semitic accounts sort of online.
I think this guy like Ian Malcolm, I don't know if you're
familiar with that. He he kind of runs.
It's like a it's it's like a Jeff Goldblum avatar, which is

(56:15):
ironic because Jeff Goldblum is Jewish and he's always just
trying to fill in like the things around Jews and da da da
da. And they're always now they have
sort of an open space here because of the criticisms of
Israel that many people share and their own anti-Semitism to
sort of link the the Epstein list situation and that to

(56:37):
Trump. I saw today like Trump got the
White House got ratioed to use that that term.
They they did a spin off of the Superman poster with Trump on it
and and the White House wrote the symbol of hope, truth,
justice, the American way, Superman, Trump and it got, you
know, ratioed for people who don't know what it means.

(56:58):
Like more likes and and retweetsfor for one, that is just an AI
version of the same thing where Trump, the same Trump is made
fat and he's made really, reallyfat.
Instead of the Superman logo, there is the Israel symbol.
I can share it in the chat with you guys if you want.
I saw it as well, yeah. I I also saw it and it's like.
Doing numbers and it's and it says forgive me, you know, not

(57:23):
embracing the able as slur, but it says fat retard on it instead
of Superman and it's doing like numbers and I don't know if the
person who posted is an anti-Semitic account.
I don't know, like, you know what I mean?
I don't know. I, it's, it's getting more and
more difficult to tell the criticisms of Israel and, you
know, just basically Semitism. But I mean, I, I'm starting to

(57:44):
believe that that wing of Trump's base actually may really
eat into MAGA in a pretty serious way.
And I, they also have an obsession with Peter Thiel, who
they also, even though he's not Jewish, associate with a lot of
that stuff and that would undercut JD Vance.
I'm just curious what your thoughts about it is because it
it's almost resembles to me likethat pesky wing of the

(58:08):
Democratic Party that is just like, wants to just, like
destroy everything, whatever that that the Democrats get
super mad about or whatever. I'm not condemning condemning
those people by the way, but just like from the eyes of
Democrats, I mean, yeah. I mean, what do you think the
White House is thinking about people like this?
And how difficult do you think it would be to sort of keep this
coalition together when you havethese people who, you know, are

(58:28):
motivated by something else and and believe Trump to be beholden
to Israel? Yeah.
I mean, I'm so glad you brought that up because I think that
that that is kind of like the undercurrent here we haven't
gotten to. And that's the idea that Epstein
was a Mossad agent And you know,there are, you know, Ghilane
Maxwell's father had Mossad tiesand all these things.
And so that is often what's going on stated here is that by

(58:49):
closing the investigation, it's being seen by particularly like
anti Israel or anti-Semitic elements of the right as like
kowtowing to Israel just as striking Iran was.
And so that, I think, is sort ofintensifying the anger on the
right at Trump. I think it's like a pretty I got
to say, I think it's like it's way bigger of a deal than

(59:09):
anybody is, is, is acknowledgingpublicly because it's kind of
hard to acknowledge, right? It's sort of like what are we
even talking about? There's a bunch of online anti
semites or whatever, But anybodywho spent a lot of time on 4
Chan and of course, Gab and Infinity Chan or HN, whatever
you want to call it and whateverback in the day, it just so
happens that those those forums were spread out right?

(59:32):
There was Trump fans all over the place, but now they're all
on X Everybody's on X and it's been reported repeatedly how
important X is to MAGA. Now.
It's like so important. It's their forum.
It's where JD Vance gives his public statements that are like,
you know, that are ridiculous tome.
I feel like the fact that that that's a lot of these posts are

(59:54):
doing like a lot of numbers mustbe like very concerning to them.
And I I, you know, I don't really have a question there.
It's just my observation. Yeah, I, I, no, I totally agree.
I think there is this, you know,and I think you're right to key
in on the sort of X is this kindof like mag a hothouse and what
the vibe and and of course, new now with Trump's arch enemy,
Elon Musk in control. So will this seems like a good

(01:00:16):
place to wrap it up today. Thanks for coming on, posting
through it, and talking about our favorite topic, which is
elite pedophiles at the top of society.
Where can people keep up with you?
Keep up with your work and follow False Flag, your
newsletter for The Bulwark. Yeah, I mean, I'm on obviously X

(01:00:36):
and blue sky. The my writing's on
thebulwark.com. The newsletter you can find
there is called False Flag. And then I'm also on the
bulwarks YouTube account. So you know, I'm a multi
platform, you know, operator here.
You're doing YouTube now? Oh my gosh.
Check it out. We're we're having so much fun.
Yeah. Listeners, if you think Jared
and I should do YouTube, please message us directly.

(01:00:56):
We're we're It's an internal debate.
Hey, it's Mr. Beast is there, you know, but that's, that's
where all our peers are. You know, our peers, Mr. Beast,
and people who like, review guitar pedals and like.
All right, Will, thanks. We're going to let you go.
Hey. Thanks for having me guys.
Good conversation with Will. I really enjoyed it.

(01:01:19):
I think it's a good time to remind people of the tip char in
the context of of of just sayingyou got to give, you got to
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(01:01:43):
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If you don't give, you got to give.
That's how you do it. But yeah, great show everybody
tip char is in the it's in the where is it?
Where's the replies? I don't know the fuck you do.
What did? You do episode description.
Episode description It's tip jars in the episode description.
We're going to see you next week, everybody.

(01:02:05):
Take care no. No, not the Epstein island.
Epstein.