September 1, 2025 • 57 mins
Marisa Kabas, an independent journalist, joined the show to talk about the ongoing military occupation of Washington, DC, and Trump's threats to dispatch troops to other American cities like Chicago and New York City. The trio also discussed the concept of "performative cruelty" as it applies to the Trump Administration's actions surrounding federal layoffs, immigration enforcement, and more.
Links for Marisa:
Her newsletter: thehandbasket.co/
Her Bluesky profile: @marisakabas.bsky.social
Transition Music: "Take" by The Beths
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
I would have much more respect for Pritzker if he'd call me up
and say I have a problem. Can you help me fix it?
I would be so happy to do it. I don't.
Love. Not that I don't have, I would,
the right to do anything I want to do.
I'm the president of the United States.
If I think our country's in danger and it is in danger in
these cities, I can do it no problem going in and solving,
(00:21):
you know, his difficulties. But it would be nice if they'd
call and they'd say, would you do it?
(00:55):
Welcome back to posting Through IT, I'm Michael Edison Hayden.
I'm Jared Holt. And today we're talking about
the occupation of Washington, DC, which is a very big issue
for the people who live there, but it should be a big issue for
everyone in the country. And there are hints that this
could be a problem for cities like Chicago in New York in the
(01:18):
coming weeks. We've already seen an occupation
of Los Angeles encounter to the demonstrations against ICE.
So this is a big one. And we have Marissa Cabas here
to talk about it. But before we get there, we got
to give a shout out to our newest Patreon subscribers at
(01:41):
the executive and platinum level.
Just a reminder, this week starts the flow of bonus
content, baby. So you're getting a double dose
of posting through it on the feeds.
One of those episodes, your Monday episode, is going to be
public. A Thursday episode is going to
be for our supporters on Patreon.
(02:02):
A link to that is down in the description.
So in the Executive Club, new members this week include Graham
Wilson and Mitch. In the Platinum Club this week
we've got Jamie Cohen, Milo, Robert Downen and Ellen
Lovelidge. Thanks so much for supporting
the show guys, it means so much to us.
(02:22):
Yeah. And before we bring on Marissa,
let's take it back to August 11th, 2025, which happened to be
the anniversary of the tiki torch event white nationalist
held in Charlottesville. For more on why these events
might be related, please go backto episode 30, Did the alt right
Win that we conducted with Hannah Gays.
But at A at a White House press conference, Donald Trump,
(02:44):
reeling from the backlash to hisassociations with pedophile
Jeffrey Epstein, declared a public safety emergency in DC,
invoking Section 740 of the DC Home Rule Act to place the DC
Metropolitan Police Department under federal control.
He deployed the National Guard to the city.
Trump called it Liberation Day. He emphasizes a return to law
(03:07):
and order. Now, according to the lore
that's out there and take it with a grain of salt, perhaps
Trump kind of came up with this idea after seeing unhoused
people from the motorcade on hisway to a golf course.
But things took more urgency after a group approached Edward,
Big Balls, chorus teen who is part of the government now,
(03:30):
somebody with the name Big Ballsand a woman he was with
identified as his significant other in their car on Swan
Street in the Logan Circle neighborhood of Washington, DC.
Big Balls, if you recall it, been the star of Elon Musk's
very young doge team tasked withgutting the federal government.
Big Balls has a bunch of weird associations online.
(03:52):
There was a big outrage over thefact that he was working with
the government at all, let alonein the position that he was in.
And the Trump administration kind of rallied to his defense.
You know, it's like the libs gotmad, so the conservatives got
defensive or they got protective, right?
So allegedly a group of teenagers attempted to car Jack
(04:15):
big balls. Again, allegedly this is their
version of events. According, you know, looking at
police reports and some reporting that came out later,
seems to be some reason to doubtit went down exactly this way.
But again, allegedly they left big balls beaten and bloodied.
Picture of him looking roughed up floated around the Internet
(04:36):
drawing mockery from his haters.But this seems to be the impetus
of why Trump deployed the military or or I guess called in
the military to DC. You know, it's like this idea,
it seems, had been kind of floating around for a little
bit, but then they came for big balls and something had to be
(04:57):
done. Yeah, of course something had to
be done because of big balls. So in, in in mid August, the
National Guard shows up hundreds, nearly thousand troops
lining the streets by some accounts.
And he brought in troops from other states, West Virginia,
South Carolina, Ohio. Our government later gave these
(05:18):
guys weapons and the operation became more entrenched.
DC residents have not been happyabout this as the federal
presence unfolded in their city.There were protests.
There is a now kind of infamous clip of a guy throwing a hoagie,
(05:40):
A grinder, a sub, whatever you call it in your region.
A sandwich into the chest of a federal officer.
I enjoyed that clip quite a bit.It's just like slapstick classic
like sitcom comedy bit. Here's regular posting through a
guest, Hannah Gays getting into it with one of the guys on the
street who she caught filming her.
(06:01):
You can't see it in this audience audio, but it's a very
strange clip, right? It's like people are confronting
these federal officers and one of them pretends to be taking a
selfie, but he's recording Hannah in this clip.
Hey, ma'am, why are you filming me?
Good evening. How are you?
Why are you filming? Me.
How are you? Doing.
Today I'm good. How are you?
(06:22):
Why were you why were you takinga fake selfie?
I wouldn't take fake selfie. Oh, I I just have you on film
right now taking a fake selfie. Why are you?
Filming. Me.
Because you're in my city. Oh, really?
You live here. A Mayor, Muriel Bowser called
this federal occupation unsettling and unprecedented and
(06:44):
labeled it an authoritarian push.
But just recently, she seems to have changed her tone on it.
She's kind of painting it as a good thing, seemingly handing
the Trump administration a rhetorical victory.
And we greatly appreciate the surge of officers that enhance
what MPD has been able to do in this city.
(07:08):
DC Attorney General Brian Schwabalso filed A lawsuit against the
Trump administration, arguing the federal seizure of the MPD
and appointment of a Federal Emergency police commissioner
exceeded legal authority under the Home Rule Act.
He is seeking A restraining order to limit the federal
presence in the city. So the impact on all of this has
(07:31):
been debated. You know, how effective is it
actually been on crime? But some analysis shows
legitimately a decrease in violent crime under this new
authoritarian structure. It's also led to other things.
Drinking and dining in Washington, DC, has sharply
declined. Across the city.
Bars that cater to the queer community have seen a sharp
(07:52):
drop. Business owners have described
being hit with thousands of dollars in losses.
People aren't committing as manycrimes, but they're also not
going outside as much. People with means are leaving
the city to visit friends or family because they don't like
the vibe anymore. The occupation is supposed to
last until the end of the month,but they're intimations that it
(08:12):
may last longer. The issue of tackling crime in
this racialized way has been very popular with pro Trump
influencers who have been calling for action exactly like
this. Trump is apparently thinking
about taking this show on the road.
He set his sights on my beloved home, Chicago, specifically
promising that he's going to straighten out this bad city.
(08:35):
He claims supporters, including,quote, African American ladies,
are pleading for him to intervene.
After Chicago, he made Target. New York City feels like a
situation that could go hellishly wrong, to put it
mildly. And that's why we brought on
today's guest, Marissa Cabas. She's an independent writer and
reporter who publishes the Handbasket newsletter.
(08:58):
Marissa's been reporting on thisauthoritarian takeover of DC
since it started and is here to share some insights on exactly
how we got here and what might be coming next.
(09:25):
I mean, we're so excited to haveyou on just on so much reporting
a human newsroom. I, I guess like, let's, let's
start at the beginning here and just kind of how did we get
here? Why?
Why? Why?
Washington, DC? Well, thanks so much for having
me. How did we get here?
Well, that's quite a complex question that could take a while
to answer. But the short answer is that
(09:46):
Donald Trump, the president, lives in Washington, DC.
And so it is aside from West Palm Beach, FL, the city that he
sees the most often. And he was on his way to a golf
game somewhat recently and noticed that there were a lot of
unhoused people on the streets of DC.
And that was unacceptable to hiseye.
(10:10):
And so he decided to declare a crime emergency instead of, you
know, providing housing or food or anything else that could
solve that problem. And it's quickly escalated into
just the complete military occupation of the nation's
capital. So this has been in the
headlines a lot. What we're seeing in TC is kind
(10:31):
of a mix of you have the National Guard coming in and
then this whole bevy of federal agents.
I've seen so many photos of people kidded up in a, you know,
tactical gear or tactical tress wandering around the National
Mall, wandering around neighborhoods and northwest and
(10:52):
the close northeast side of DC. What is it actually looking like
on the ground there? I haven't been there myself so I
can only say based on the many videos and photos that I've been
shared directly with me, but it looks like a mixture of military
occupation and then also boredomat the same time because there's
(11:14):
a lot of especially National Guards members that have nothing
to do. There was a photo the other day
of them picking up trash. And, you know, who knows why
they were doing that? Maybe that was to make them look
less scary to the community. But regardless, it doesn't seem
like there's actually a lot of work for them to do.
And because so many people are scared to be out and about right
(11:37):
now because of their presence, there's even fewer people than
usual to to patrol and to intimidate if they so choose to.
And so it's it's just like a lotof hanging out, you know, like
they obviously the sandwich guy is, is infamous now.
But like, there were there was apicture of guardsmen hanging out
(11:58):
in front of a Krispy Kreme and someone was like, oh, they just
want that thrown at them instead.
Sometimes life imitates art. Yeah.
I mean, what can you tell as faras the apparent plan here?
I feel like that's something I've heard a lot.
You know, basically DC has been inundated with National Guard
(12:22):
troops with an influx of federalagents, and the exact plan for
what they're supposed to be doing isn't totally clear.
You know, I've heard that a lot.It is that true or, or what's
your sense of it? Yeah, I don't think there's a
clear plan. As with most Trump things, it's
sort of slapdash and just makingit up as he goes.
(12:43):
I know from members of the, the DC National Guard that they're
getting their orders very haphazardly.
They're not coming through the normal channels.
They're coming through text messages.
And they, they got an alert thatthey were being deployed via
text message, like via mass alert.
And that's just not, as I understand it normally how, how
(13:05):
things are done. So I don't think that there's a
real plan. They are now arming the members
of the National Guard, which is not something you were doing at
the beginning. And as I reported, they are
armed with these M17 pistols. And no one could quite figure
out why exactly those weapons. And there may not be a
(13:27):
particularly good reason. It may just be like that's
what's available in the Armory. But it's a lot of improv, I
would say. You know, in, in this whole,
there's no plan part of it. That sounds like there's also no
end date, right? And that's what I think is
probably most concerning to DC residents and also to residents
(13:48):
of other cities. We'll get into that in a bit
because it's it this seems like it's a sort of, you know,
something that's spreading around the country.
But if there's no, if there's noend date, that makes me, I don't
know. This is not a question, more of
a statement to respond to. But that makes me pretty
concerned considering Trump's other authoritarian tendencies,
(14:09):
right? You know.
Yeah, Well, it's supposed to endSeptember 30th.
You know, that's technically theend of this.
It's not a deployment because it's domestic, but this
assignment and Mayor Bowser, theDC mayor made a comment the
other day that they're talking about, she's talking with Trump
about extending it because she'ssupportive of, of what these
(14:33):
troops and federal agents are doing there.
So there is technically an end date, but it's not at all like a
hard stop. And even if they don't
technically renew it, what's going to stop them from just
hanging out longer? I mean nothing.
DC is kind of unique. It is not a state.
(14:53):
It is, you know, a big city. It is a district.
It is kind of in this weird zone, right, where people who
live in DC don't have any representation in the federal
government. They don't really have much say.
The city's government is kind ofsubject to the whims of Congress
(15:13):
and and that sort of thing. What about DC?
Should people understand in terms of how it is unique and
how to set up in a different waythat makes, you know, deploying
or I guess not deploying, but, you know, installing military
and federal agents and stuff easier for Trump or, or like
(15:35):
what about the dynamics changes just based on the geography of
where this is happening right now?
Well, it's, it's a federal district, so there are so many
different levels of law enforcement within a very small
relative area. So you have the Metropolitan
Police, but then you also have the presence of every other
(15:57):
federal agency because they're based there.
And they, yeah, I mean, that's where most of them operate out
of. So the fact that it's all kind
of physically concentrated, I think helps ease the speed and,
and the, you know, the amount inwhich that they were able to
populate the streets with, with soldiers.
(16:18):
But then on the other hand, it'sjust a regular city.
It's a, it's a real city where real people live and work and go
to school. And it's not just Capitol Hill.
It's not just the monuments, youknow, it's, it's a thriving,
very diverse city. I think I believe it has one of
the largest black populations and in the country for a city,
(16:39):
not quite half, but I, I would, I think over 40%.
And, and there's a lot of racialdynamics at play.
There's a lot of, you know, segregated housing, You know,
it's a, it's a complicated city.And I think that it's Trump is
explaining those those complications and he is, you
(17:01):
know, he's trying to care to a certain type of person and
trying to convince them that they are not safe where they
live. When the truth is that, you
know, is it perfect? No, obviously not.
But in a city of of Batman people, you're going to have
things happen. And he's trying to create an
image of DC that is just simply not real.
(17:24):
One thing that really struck me at the beginning of this was
that you'd have videos of black people in their own
neighborhoods, right? And somebody would be smoking
weed somewhere on the street. And, you know, you have a like a
group of like 5-6 guys in, you know, I mean, what do you think
that? I mean, what is the
psychological impact of something like that?
(17:46):
As you know, that that to me makes it so surprising to see,
you know, Mayor Bowser kind of apologize for Trump because it's
it, it does seem like it's because of the large percentage
of black people in the city. As you pointed out, it seems
like it's, it's very, you know, pointed at the black community.
I think so. At the same time, the black
(18:07):
communities, the majority black communities are the ones who are
most used to having a law enforcement presence around.
So seeing cops kind of roaming the streets or, or giving them
problems or stopping them is actually probably not as jarring
to them as it is to like the mostly white people in DCI.
Mean I've seen a bunch of videosfrom these neighborhoods and
(18:31):
like in one of them, the people who were watching these federal
agents kind of like looking in cars or like making fun of them.
They're laughing at them. They they didn't really seem
that scared of them because and a lot of these people were like
younger. Some of them are like teenagers.
And I think they just are are used to being over policed and
(18:51):
and having their actions watched.
And so I'm sure it's uncomfortable and it makes them
feel even less safe, but authority was never their friend
to begin with. So Trump and his administration
cronies are talking about expanding this.
As we've mentioned earlier, they're talking about places
(19:13):
like New York, Sweet home Chicago.
For me, I worry how that will godown because I don't feel like
this is a city. It's the Chicago way is hating
the government even people you vote for?
You know, the city rallies around their next mayor.
The mayor gets like a month in office and then everybody hates
them. Just blanket.
They're also talking about Boston.
(19:34):
We saw a kind of a precursor to this stuff in LA.
Do you have any thoughts about sort of how they are selecting
these places or you know, what we can realistically expect in,
in terms of their ability to expand this project, expand this
(19:54):
show of force? You know, as we've mentioned, DC
is a, a federal district. So it, you know, has kind of a
different code and maybe a bit easier to orchestrate something
like this there, whereas in states you need.
Some buy in from state governments and that sort of
thing. How realistic is it that Trump
might order similar shows of force in other places around the
(20:18):
country? I mean, certainly there's some
more obstacles, but I also don'tknow that this administration
has really shown itself to be too respectful of the precious
norms and. Of course, yeah, I think it it
depends on a lot of things. I think it depends in the order
in which he tries to go to the cities.
(20:38):
So for example, I think if he tried to do Chicago first, which
seems like, you know, he set hissights on Chicago.
Governor Pritzker has shown a real backbone and shown that he
will not take this lying down, which is setting an incredible
example for other states to follow.
Because, for example, if they came to New York first, I can't
really imagine Governor Hochul being like, over my dead body.
(21:01):
Will you come in? Like she'll probably like post a
few things about like how this is terrible and, you know, on
American. But I so I think if, if he goes
for Chicago first, it would actually be a huge mistake
because there will be an enormous opposition.
And I think the fact that he hasn't done it yet has shown
that there are obstacles. Because if it was really as easy
(21:22):
as what he did in DC, we would already be seeing troops on the
ground in Chicago. And I think that he's selecting
obviously cities in blue states.You mean it's like really not
that deep? He hates Democrats, he hates
states that didn't vote for him,and he is trying to punish us.
My going paranoid fear is that he's going to just like they're
(21:44):
just going to like arrest mom Donnie.
That's going to be like the New York mission just going to
arrest mom Donnie and like try to deport him somewhere.
And but I, I know that's paranoid and ridiculous, but
like part of me is like. It's not.
I remember in 20/16/2017 advising people who had green
cards be like, you need to watchout because I got to spend a lot
(22:06):
of time reporting on Stephen Miller and like all these like,
you know, white nationalist groups that influence Miller, be
there and all these things. And I was like, they're, they
want to get rid of green cards. They want, you know, and people
like, no, a green card doesn't, you can't do anything.
Like I was like, just don't riskit.
And then what happened like years later, now we're talking
(22:27):
about people with green cards getting deported, right?
So I don't know, I just feel like they don't like mom Donnie
and he's a symbol and they're just that's my I know that's not
useful for this conversation necessary, but I just thought
about it with New York, like what are they going to do when
they get in there? That's like the first person
they're. Going to get rid of you're.
You're absolutely right. I was literally talking about
this last night with a friend. We're talking about the mayoral
(22:49):
race and we're obviously very excited about mom Donnie.
And I don't really see who wouldbeat him at this point.
So it's things are looking good.But at the same time, like I'm
imagining a scenario where election night is like the
highest high and then the very next day is, hey, the troops are
rolling in. I actually compared it to, do
(23:11):
you remember, I believe it was January 5th, 2021, where we won
the 2 elections in Georgia, the two Senate elections, and the
Democrats got the majority of the Senate for the first time in
a while. And then the very next day,
January 6th happened and it was like a whiplash.
And so that is definitely a scenario, I imagine.
(23:34):
And you know, it's not just Trump mobilizing.
And so I'm Donnie, that's like awhole other thing.
So there's a lot of people who would like to see New York beat
down a little bit. Yeah, I think it's also, he's
ideologically an answer to Trumpism in many ways, right.
And that's a threat to on top ofhis, his, his backwards ethnic
(23:55):
background and everything else and his and his, and the fact
that he, you know, there's something sexy about him.
I don't mean that like literallylike, oh, be sexy.
I mean it like. I mean, he's not.
He's not not. OK, OK, that's fine.
That's fine, That's fine, that'sfine.
No, but my, my point is that like there's, there's, there's
something going, you know, it's like he, he, he's not Obama in,
(24:19):
in 2007, 2008. He's not that he's, he's, he's a
mayoral candidate, but he represents, he's giving people
hope and excitement when at a time where Trump is very used to
the Democrats just being the theWashington generals to his
Harlem Globetrotters, right? Like he's, you know, they're
just there to get their ass kicked and he's not liking, you
(24:42):
know, this young whippersnapper.Yeah, but either is the
Democratic Party right like that?
There, that's what's part of part of what's giving him so
much juice, right, Like is also that right, is the fact that
he's going against that. And then you have these
candidates popping up in other states, too.
There's that new Senate candidate in Maine.
I'm blanking on his name that he's like a fisherman or lobster
(25:07):
or something, man. And he's a very populist
progressive and, and he's not getting Schumer's backing as of
yet. And I think that Schumer is
looking for a candidate to run against him.
And it's like, imagine if we just embraced all this populist
energy and like, I don't know, just see how it plays out.
It couldn't be worse than what'shappening now.
(25:30):
But for some reason, I get the feeling that leadership thinks
it is worse. But I guess that's a
conversation for another time. Yeah, Marissa, I think you are.
You're really right in pointing out the difference between
Pritzker and some of these New York politicians.
I think that's a really astute observation.
Well, Speaking of those other politicians, I want to talk a
(25:50):
little bit about how Democrats have responded, or perhaps not
responded to what is happening in DC now.
Congress is in recess, right? Recess out of session.
I don't know if those are different or the same, but.
They're not they're. Not there.
Capitol Hill's, you know, fairlyquiet now.
(26:12):
They're not going to be back until next month.
But it'll be curious to see if these members, you know, once
they are actually there, assuming they ever leave, like
Navy Yard or Capitol Hill in between, you know, going back
and forth to the office, if thatwill change their responses at
(26:34):
all. I mean, what is kind of the
mainstream Democrat response been to this military occupation
of DC? Obviously, there's exceptions,
like my boy JB Pritzker, governor of Illinois these days.
You don't. JB Pritzker is not a perfect
politician by any stretch of theimagination.
But it is refreshing to see that, you know, the place I call
(26:57):
home is showing like the bare minimum of a back.
There is a semblance of, you know, the X-ray machine is at
least turned on. And you can assume maybe there's
a backbone in there somewhere, you know, but.
And there's and there's a, a fight, there's some fighting
spirit. And his press conference the
other day was very, I forgot theexact quote, but he was like,
you know, come at me and I'll, I'll come back, You know.
(27:21):
And I think that that's a message that has not been coming
across at all because Democrats aren't really coming back at the
current federal administration with any sort of concerted
effort, with any sort of unity. They should be like out front in
the Capitol, like laying on the freaking ground, you know, like
(27:41):
they should be camped out there until like, something is
changed. There's something dramatic needs
to happen. And I think they just think that
they put out press releases and,you know, do ATV hit or
something that it's enough. And it's just simply not enough
because it's not breaking through to people.
People do not feel like Democrats have this handled at
(28:03):
all. So obviously they're not
handling it appropriately. It almost seems like the
calculus is that they're just going to lean into being wonky,
being like, well, if you look atthe polls, they trust us on
inflation. If you look at the polls, you
know, they think we're more competent leaders.
But also, if you look at the polls, there is, like, no faith
(28:24):
in the Democratic Party right now because it seems to be
completely out to lunch while somany people in this country are
scared, not just for themselves,but for their neighbors, for the
people they care about in their communities.
And people don't know where it'sgoing to stop, right?
And it's like, these are supposed to be the leaders of
(28:45):
our country. They're supposed to be the ones
that kind of put, you know, their skin in the game, and
instead they're just doing whatever the hell else it is
they're doing. I don't even know town halls,
media hits, you know? Like barely, you know, and, and
the town halls that have happened have not been going
(29:05):
well. A lot of Democratic members of
Congress who are supportive of Israel have been getting a lot
of pushback of getting a lot of people attending and, and, you
know, shouting them down. So these these aren't good
productive meetings. And I actually, it just like
kind of dawned on me, like it kind of blows my mind that, you
know, that they're in recess, that none of them have come back
(29:27):
to the district while this is happening.
Like it's really easy to hop on a plane or a train from wherever
they are and do something. And they're really like, they're
leaving the City High and dry. It's pretty, pretty gross when
you think about it. It's like the whole city
revolves around the capital and the government and, and the
(29:47):
people who work there. And then they just peace out for
all of August and say figure it out.
And so I, I think some people will kind of Pearl clutch a
little bit when they see it in person.
But also, it's probably not going to be like, like you said,
like right where they live or where they work.
They're not going to actually beas exposed to it.
And who can say? But I can't imagine like an IS
(30:10):
agent trying to like body slam amember of Congress.
But crazier things have happened, I guess.
Never say never. I watch way more MSNBC than I
should. Like I, you know, it's like a
low dose of poison I take every day.
It's a workplace hazard here at posting through it.
And and I like I because I want to know give me the talking
(30:31):
point. Just just tell me what the
talking points are and like, I what I don't understand and
maybe I should write talking points for them.
What I don't understand is like,why are they everybody?
You know, they're, they're kind of like, you know, just the
crime is down, but this is authoritarian.
Why don't you just point out that businesses are suffering?
I don't understand why that is. They, they are not screaming
(30:53):
that from the rooftops because we saw like the LGBTQ community
in DC said, hey, you know, gay bars are down.
It's like 50, it's half or whatever, you know, because
people are scared. They're not on the streets.
And then you have just a regularbar traffic way down.
Dining is way down. Business owners are hurting
because people don't want to go out right now.
(31:14):
They feel like they're in a pandemic or something.
It's like a feel like an unforced pandemic.
It's just like a like, you know,just thrown at them.
And why aren't they screaming that from the rooftop?
Because like, yeah, carjacking is down when there are no cars,
like where people don't want to drive out of the house or like
half as many people. It seems like a very, it seems
like a layup and they're just not shooting the ball.
(31:35):
I don't understand. If I understood, I would be a
gazillionaire, I think. But I I there's, it's it's
really unfathomable. I just the other day DC
Councilwoman posted online that people shouldn't order DoorDash
and delivery because right now delivery workers were so exposed
(31:58):
to being pulled over and hassledand harassed by members of law
enforcement. And we've seen so many videos of
it, seen videos of them giving breathalyzer tests to, to random
delivery workers. A video I posted a week or so
ago, this delivery driver was just completely ambushed by, by
(32:19):
a crew of ICE agents as people sat by and, and ate brunch at
like a, a bougie place in Northwest.
And it's like, yeah, people don't want to go out to brunch
because they might see someone get the shit beat out of them.
And so that's not good for business either.
So it's just like it's completely knocked off the
entire ecosystem of commerce of,of social gatherings.
(32:43):
It, it's just making it a reallyunpleasant place to live.
And I don't, I, I don't know whyDemocrats are not seizing on
that. So zooming out a bit, you've
done a lot of coverage at the Handbasket, which is your
independent publication. Honest to God, just force of
nature. I, I am so impressed with what
(33:05):
you're doing with the handbasket.
You know, just running laughs around these like giant
publications. And then not only that, but also
your willingness to stand up foryourself and be like, cool story
New York Times who wrote about it first.
So on the handbasket, you've written a lot of stories about
(33:25):
things that I kind of mentally classify as like in the the
specter of performative cruelty that the Trump administration
has done. It's not entirely performative
because they're actually doing shit that's hurting people,
right? But performative in the sense of
like, does this solve the problem?
I don't know. But it gives the vibe of solving
(33:46):
the problem to its base. Things like the Alligator
Alcatraz facility in Florida, Everything is going on with ice.
The Doge cuts to the federal workforce and stuff.
And I'm curious, you know, as you look at what's happening now
and look back on some of your prior reporting, if you also
(34:07):
kind of see these as like storylines in the same cinematic
universe. Yeah, it is very much
performative. And with Trump, we know
everything is a performance and it's all about optics and it's
creating the appearance of strength, not actually being
strong. It's creating the appearance of
having a control over things. But at some point, the
(34:29):
appearance becomes reality because if he is taking over,
say, Washington, DC, like we've been talking about, and people
are scared and I think it's not,you know, safe to go there
because of this guard presence. Like he is kind of manifesting
it in a way. So even though he's not
achieving these by like traditional means, he is kind of
(34:53):
just achieving it by brute force, I guess you could say.
And yeah, I I don't know. I mean, even earlier on when
they were offering the deferred resignation program for federal
employees, which meant that theycould accept retirement or, you
know, except, yeah, except retirement and then still get
paid for another, you know, bunch of months.
(35:15):
At the beginning, it seemed likenot that many people were going
to take it. It was probably going to be a
huge flop, especially when Elon Musk was at the helm of all this
and and just like creating many more barriers than than helping.
But then in the end, you know, you look at the number of people
that have actually been eliminated from the federal
workforce between different resignation and firings.
(35:38):
And I believe it's something like 10% of the the federal
workforce. And so, yeah, we can sit here
and laugh at at how ridiculous it all is and, and how Elon
Musk, you know, embarrass himself.
But they they achieved what theywanted to do.
And this is just a few months in.
It's a lot of act now. Figure out what this means
(36:00):
later. And for them, they seem to keep
kind of figuring it out somehow.You mentioned the sort of
chaotic nature of the way this was implemented in DC and almost
certainly will be when it's taken to other liberal cities or
the way it was in Los Angeles. We forget about that already
happened right around the the ICE protests.
(36:24):
It seems to be like a truism in the public that that Trump is
react, you know, reacts this waywhen he feels weak or threatened
in some way, right? Where he where it's like the
Epstein scandal started to be make a lot of noise and and then
he and then he did this and or or big balls, you know, got beat
(36:46):
up, right. I never thought that would be
something I'd have to say, but yeah, I mean.
That's news analysis now. Big balls got beat up and you
know, I think that embarrassed them too.
There's a racial dynamic there. And he's like a sort of little
prize little guy that they've tried to protect because people
(37:08):
because, because the libs were so mad when he was when the
people discovered that he was hired in the first place.
Now, is he flying by the seat ofhis pants?
Or is this like, you know, the things like Alligator Alcatraz,
for instance, which is just so gross and obviously
authoritarian and creepy and fascistic and whatever other
words you want to throw at it. I mean, are, are these things
(37:30):
where it's like, yeah, I'm goingto do this.
Or is he kind of, you know, are these just is, is it
authoritarianism, authoritarianism by
improvisation? Like what?
What what is bottom text? Like, what am I saying?
I don't know which like what, how does this stuff, where does
this stuff come from? Like is it like we're going to
take over DC this late summer? I mean, or they or they just
(37:51):
like one day they're like just enough.
I mean, it's it's hard for me toknow.
Well, it's it's both, right? Because on one hand, someone
could bring an idea to Trump andhe's like, oh, cool, sounds
great. And he just signs off on it.
And there's no larger picture toany of it.
Like, for example, I'm working on a story that is hopefully
(38:12):
coming out in the next day or two about this member of the US
Park Police who's been caught oncamera multiple times, in one
instance brutalizing, you know, an innocent person and then just
being generally kind of a Dick around town.
And and then this week, there was that really creepy Cabinet
meeting where all the members ofthe Cabinet were kissing Trump's
(38:35):
ass. And Doug Burnham, the interior
secretary who overseas the US Park Police, was like, oh, it's
so great. You know, like, I realized that
the Park Police weren't allowed to engage in pursuits, like
vehicle pursuits. So I just went to President
Trump and I said, can we change that?
And in a day, he changed it. And now we're allowed to chase
(38:56):
people and the US Park Police are out there and they're just
having so much fun. He literally said that they're
having fun pulling people over. And so there's this like very
just like malleable, yeah, improv way about things.
But then on the other hand, there's project 2025 like so
much of this is laid out before.If more people took that
(39:18):
seriously, as you both well know, we may not be in in this
situation that we're in. So there's there's a blueprint
and then there's also writing kind of in the in the margins of
the blueprint to be like, what if we added that?
What if we added that? So it I think that's scary
because it's methodical and yet unpredictable at the same time.
(39:40):
Sounds like they know what they want to do, but they don't
always know how they're going todo it or when.
And that's kind of the element of surprise that Trump thrives
on. I mean, I that's just my my
analysis of what you're saying. Yeah, something that always
drove me crazy about the Project2025 discourse.
You know, it was brought up on the campaign trail in 2024.
(40:02):
You know, it certainly got. A fair share of coverage and
mainstream outlets and stuff. But like so much right wing
coverage or right wing criticism, it kind of focused on
the excesses of Project 2025. You know, weird paragraphs in
there about like voting rights or or women's rights or whatever
(40:25):
that are meant to provoke a reaction.
And I guess I get why people do that, right?
It's like, you're going to talk about this thing that's crazy
and here's the craziest stuff init.
But I feel like so much of that coverage or, or maybe it was
just, you know, lost in the details or embedded in the
subtext was the bigger project, right?
(40:46):
It's like, yes, they have these crazy ideas.
There are all kinds of insane people and just truly like
legitimately bigoted, hateful people that contributed to, you
know, writing up this giant white paper.
But the project at its core is aconsolidation of power in the
executive branch. That is the point of slashing
(41:07):
the federal workforce. That is the point of
intimidating these cities. That is the point of so much
stuff that they're doing is justdirecting more power to the
White House, specifically the Oval Office, and to political
appointees and away from, like, career bureaucrats and stuff.
That always drove me crazy. I think that was the scariest
(41:30):
part of the project. And just who signed on to it.
But you did a lot of reporting, Speaking of federal agencies
about the doge cuts. I mentioned that earlier.
You know, I imagine you had, youknow, lots of sources and folks
inside the government talking toyou.
This is kind of an aside, but I'm just curious if you talk to
(41:52):
people who are still in the government these days and what
that's looks like. Because I've seen, you know, the
photos and videos of them hanging up giant banners of
Trump's face on the building andstuff.
It reminds me of like when I wasin Northern Cyprus, right?
And like, you just see like all this Turkish government stuff
all over the place there. Or you walk into every every
(42:14):
store you walk into as like a framed photo of the leader above
the doorway and stuff. And just makes me think of that.
But I am just curious if if you have any sense of, like, what
the vibe is like inside the government these days now that
all of these changes have, you know, kind of come to fruition
and things continue to March offon this sort of dystopian
(42:36):
direction. Yeah, well, I definitely have
far fewer sources now than I didin February of this year.
And that's just a very literal testament to how many people
have have left the government, especially the people who are
frustrated enough to reach out to a reporter about it.
I guess the people that are still there, I don't, they're
(42:59):
just sort of like, it's just this low grade psychosis at all
times. And they are kind of prepared
for anything and not really too surprised by anything at this
point. You know, I can't speak for all
of them, but I get the sense that they just they have to keep
their jobs. They have families to support,
(43:20):
They have lives to support. And I know that certain people
have it better because of like good supervisors and good
managers and, and some of these leaders are able to kind of like
shield their teams from the, theworst of what's coming from the
top. But at a, at an agency, for
example, like FEMA, which I've, I've covered a lot, you know,
(43:42):
it's, it's not as large of an agency and every day is just
complete chaos. They're, they're doing life
saving work. They're working with stuff that
is so life or death and it's being treated like, you know,
complete like, like fake stuff, you know, like a game of, of
life, a game of Monopoly or something.
(44:02):
And so I don't know, I, I give so much credit to the people who
have stayed because it's so easyto say from the outside, like
what everyone should stay, you know, protest and stand up to
what's going on. But like, that's not an easy
thing to do. And who knows how many sources
they'll have left by the end of the year, honestly.
(44:24):
And they're sort of replacing, you know, it seems like if
they're not replacing somebody, you know, in literal sense with,
with someone else, it seems likeacross the government, they're
replacing in some way people whoare ideologically aligned with
MAGA, right? And so that's what the kind of
people we're getting. Those are the type of people who
(44:46):
are more enthusiastic to be on the streets of DC to bring it
back to the main topic of hand, right?
And that's troubling. And I think that also goes back
to what Jared was saying about the most troubling thing about
Project 2025 is that the more mundane ways in which it's just
completely offending the way thegovernment's run.
I was reading a story earlier today from Capital B News, which
(45:10):
is a great newsroom. And it was about this small town
in Louisiana that there was a petroleum plant nearby, I
believe. And there is an explosion, and
it's just raining down, like, black sludge onto this town that
has like, a 90% child poverty rate.
And, you know, that's obviously heinous on itself.
(45:31):
But then, you know, I'm reading through the whole story.
And then, of course, it's like, this seems to be the thing.
There always comes a point in every story.
It was like, oh, yeah. So the regional head of the EPA
who's tasked with cleaning up this town is some guy who used
to run stuff in Oklahoma, who wrote a portion of Project 2025
(45:52):
and argued that we need to deregulate everything with air
quality and water safety and allthe things that are currently
hurting this town. So it's like literally the worst
person for the job, the most evil possible person.
These people are, they're livingwith very little.
And this is a huge source of income from their town.
(46:12):
And the plant is currently shut down.
And this is the guy that's supposed to help them.
And that's just one town, one small town in Louisiana.
And so it's just shows the absolute insidiousness of of all
of it and how, yeah, we could cut the head off metaphorically
of Trump, but it's it's seeped in so deeply and, and so many
(46:34):
places that you don't even thinkabout.
It's the The Onion headline, buta little different.
The worst person you know just got a great job.
And there's so many of these guys I've, you know, weird
little guys or whatever you wantto call them, these like
incompetent middle men who luck out with these jobs just because
(46:55):
they're loyal to the president and have absolutely no idea what
they're doing. And our government's basically
run by those guys, you know, at least at the kind of second tier
leadership level. And and that's really scary.
Yeah, it's a government of reply, guys, sometimes quite
literally, you know. But before we get out of here,
(47:15):
you know, before we let you go, Marissa, I wanted to talk about
what you're doing with the handbasket.
As I mentioned earlier, you've managed to land some pretty big
stories and on certain topics from labs around like mainstream
news outlets that have hundreds or thousands of employees or,
and all kinds of resources and all kinds of sourcing.
(47:38):
What's your secret? No, no, you know, I'm just
curious, like as an independent journalist, sort of how you view
the role of independent journalism these days, you know,
especially as these mainstream news outlets, you know, are
cutting settlements with with the president and getting mushy
(48:02):
on covering certain topics. I mean, Mike and I can both
attest the far right beat in newsrooms is like virtually
incinerated. You know, there's a few people
hanging on that are are writing these stories at big outlets
and, you know, that's great. They're great journalists.
I'm not going to, you know, put them down that they're probably
clinging on for dear life. But it's just like so much of
(48:25):
journalism has changed. I I'm curious if you think
independent journalism is playing a different or, you
know, perhaps more important role than it has in the past.
I think so, or or at least a very different one, it's it's
manifesting differently. I think that there's a huge
(48:47):
distrust across the board and big institutions.
So whether that's the governmentor corporate news outlets and
people with tons of money and tons of power who, like you
said, are willing to settle, whoare willing to compromise their
beliefs for their bottom line, are not necessarily the people
that you want to be hearing fromwhen we're free falling into
(49:08):
fascism. And I think the fact that I'm
not, you know, bought and sold, I don't have the backing of
literally anyone besides my readers is just, it's a pretty
transparent way to see that I'm not answering to anybody aside
from those people. And I think also, like, I'm very
(49:30):
open about my process. I, I post too much and, but I,
I, I, I try to kind of demystifythis process because I think
that these large outlets make itseem a lot more complicated than
it actually is. It's like you literally just
have to find the right people totalk to have them trust you,
earn their trust, get the information in an ethical way,
(49:54):
cross some TS, dot some I's, maybe do a quick legal review.
And that's, that's a news story,you know, and there's, I guess
for me, I don't have to run it by like my corporate sponsors,
like, is this OK? Is this going to like mess up
your quarterly report? I don't have to deal with with
any of that. So I think that the moment just
ended up being kind of perfect. You know, I started the
(50:16):
handbasket well before this administration, but it's only
now that it has really taken offbecause there seems to be such
an appetite for for people working out outside the system,
I think. One issue with independent
reporting that I'm sure you feela lot of pressure because come a
(50:37):
certain time a week, you know, you've got people who are
donating to your work or, or to paying for it, whatever.
And then you know, the, the content, you know, you have to
keep the content going, which I think is really sometimes
counterintuitive to news. And I like, I'm just curious
about that because you do very good kind of the, the standard
newspaper story in in a sense, like, like lengthwise, you'll do
(51:01):
that and, and zoom just bang it out.
But sometimes it's like the typeof investigations that I had
that I was able to do when I waswith SPLC and I was given a lot
of time and leash like to do nine months or 10 months on
something that kind of that's, that's really tough.
And I'm just, I'm just curious, like if you feel like, you know,
you ever want to like stop what you're doing?
(51:23):
And just like I need to want to need to work on this for three
months or four months is, you know, is that challenging
because because you're getting good information all the time.
It's really challenging and it'shard to there's I'm, I'm very
hard on myself and I often feel like, Oh my God, I'm, you know,
I'm letting my subscribers down.I haven't published enough this
week, You know, for example, this month I've been traveling a
(51:46):
lot, mix of work stuff and, you know, a little vacation.
And yeah, I mean, there's no oneto fill in for me, you know,
it's just. Yeah, it's like, guys, I need to
go on vacation, Please. I'm crying here.
Jared and I are recently. We we're we're, we're, we, we
like doubled our, our content demand by moving to Patreon.
(52:07):
So like we're, we're just going to run into it head first.
It's a lie. And I am very much of the mind
like I'm not going to publish something if I don't think it's
worth publishing. It's definitely not a volume
play for me. And different independent
journalists have different philosophies about that.
Like you can talk to someone else and they'll say just
(52:27):
publish, publish, publish. That is the key.
And just like get your stuff in front of people.
And then my approach, which honestly wasn't even really on
purpose. I think it's just my style and
maybe I'm not as fast as other people, but I'm like, I'm going
to write stuff that I think is important and that matters to me
and other people. And I'm setting the expectation
(52:48):
that when something drops in your inbox, it's something that
means something. It's not, I'm not just filling
space. I'm not just trying to remind
you that I exist. So people know that when they
get a handbasket story like thisshould be something that's
pretty substantive. And I don't have an editorial
calendar. I don't have a set publishing
schedule. Those are all things that were
(53:09):
told to me that were essential to in order to be successful as
an independent journalist. And I mean, maybe it's my type B
personality or laziness, I don'tknow.
You don't seem very lazy from I've just met you but you know
I've only seen you like online before this.
Just not the vibe I get. Thank you, thank you.
I appreciate it. Well, I would say I'm definitely
(53:31):
not Taipei that that is what I will say.
I'm not a hyper organized, you know, just like head down and
kind of scatterbrain and but I, I figured out a way to make it
work for me, which is also the really nice thing about being
independent like you, you make your own rules, you make your
own schedule. You're not just meeting a quota
for the week that you know your editor is asking of you.
(53:53):
I'm so, yeah. I mean, people have asked, like,
if you got an offer at one of these big outlets, you know,
would you take it? It's a question I get a lot.
And at this point, like, no, no,because I can't be fired
tomorrow. And that's a really great
feeling. Yeah, live in the dream, baby.
Marissa Kavis, thanks for joining posting through it.
(54:16):
It's been a pleasure to get to chat with you and, and get, you
know, some of your takes and, and information about it's crazy
shit that's happening in DC potentially coming to a city
near us. Hopefully not, but I guess we'll
just have to see how, how the cards fall.
Marissa, where can people check out the handbasket and follow
(54:37):
you online? All that good stuff.
So you can check out the handbasket at the handbasket.co
and you can find me on Blue Sky at Marissa Cabas, just my full
name. Those are the 2 main places.
And yeah, you can become a free subscriber at first, see how you
like it and then upgrade to a paid subscription.
(54:58):
All the support is great and helps a lot.
We'll throw thanks to those downin the episode description so
you can go check it out. Thanks so much guys.
Thanks, Marissa. I was so glad that Marissa was
able to join us. I really appreciated her
reporting. Especially this year.
It feels like the handbaskets really taking off, and it was
(55:20):
cool that we got to talk to somebody who has been kind of
reporting the cutting edge of this stuff, you know, however
bleak the topic may be. I love our guests.
We got so many great guests and we're going to keep producing
episodes exactly like this, which is why you listener,
should sign up for our Patreon. The link is in the description.
(55:43):
We will be going twice a week going forward.
Jared and I are ready to run through walls for you.
And yeah, I'm very excited aboutit, man.
I'm really excited. It's mostly because I get to
hang out with you. That's the main reason I'm
excited. Yeah, people are saying this is
a cash grab and then posting through it is for jocks No, but
but your support on Patreon means so much.
(56:05):
I mean, we've seen so many people sign up and we have it,
you know, I mean, this is the first week we're going to be
releasing these bonus episodes, right?
So for that many people to sign up to support us and and help us
do it. Without even doing an episode,
doing a premium episode. Yeah, it's kind of kind of
amazing, honestly. I, I got to say, I'm genuinely
heartened and it's tough. My heart is really like covered
(56:28):
with with scales at this point. Yeah, it's if I think about it
too long, I start to get mushy. But before I get mushy, let's
get out of here, guys. We'll see our Patreon supporters
on Thursday, and we'll see the rest of you guys on Monday.
Take care. Bye bye.
(57:13):
Tell me a secret so. I can erase.
It but I need to keep it keep it.
I would have much more respect for Pritzker if he'd call me up
and say I have a problem. Can you help me fix it?
I would be so happy to do it. I don't.
Love. Not that I don't have, I would,
the right to do anything I want to do.
I'm the president of the United States.
If I think our country's in danger and it is in danger in
these cities, I can do it no problem going in and solving,
(00:21):
you know, his difficulties. But it would be nice if they'd
call and they'd say, would you do it?
(00:55):
Welcome back to posting Through IT, I'm Michael Edison Hayden.
I'm Jared Holt. And today we're talking about
the occupation of Washington, DC, which is a very big issue
for the people who live there, but it should be a big issue for
everyone in the country. And there are hints that this
could be a problem for cities like Chicago in New York in the
(01:18):
coming weeks. We've already seen an occupation
of Los Angeles encounter to the demonstrations against ICE.
So this is a big one. And we have Marissa Cabas here
to talk about it. But before we get there, we got
to give a shout out to our newest Patreon subscribers at
(01:41):
the executive and platinum level.
Just a reminder, this week starts the flow of bonus
content, baby. So you're getting a double dose
of posting through it on the feeds.
One of those episodes, your Monday episode, is going to be
public. A Thursday episode is going to
be for our supporters on Patreon.
(02:02):
A link to that is down in the description.
So in the Executive Club, new members this week include Graham
Wilson and Mitch. In the Platinum Club this week
we've got Jamie Cohen, Milo, Robert Downen and Ellen
Lovelidge. Thanks so much for supporting
the show guys, it means so much to us.
(02:22):
Yeah. And before we bring on Marissa,
let's take it back to August 11th, 2025, which happened to be
the anniversary of the tiki torch event white nationalist
held in Charlottesville. For more on why these events
might be related, please go backto episode 30, Did the alt right
Win that we conducted with Hannah Gays.
But at A at a White House press conference, Donald Trump,
(02:44):
reeling from the backlash to hisassociations with pedophile
Jeffrey Epstein, declared a public safety emergency in DC,
invoking Section 740 of the DC Home Rule Act to place the DC
Metropolitan Police Department under federal control.
He deployed the National Guard to the city.
Trump called it Liberation Day. He emphasizes a return to law
(03:07):
and order. Now, according to the lore
that's out there and take it with a grain of salt, perhaps
Trump kind of came up with this idea after seeing unhoused
people from the motorcade on hisway to a golf course.
But things took more urgency after a group approached Edward,
Big Balls, chorus teen who is part of the government now,
(03:30):
somebody with the name Big Ballsand a woman he was with
identified as his significant other in their car on Swan
Street in the Logan Circle neighborhood of Washington, DC.
Big Balls, if you recall it, been the star of Elon Musk's
very young doge team tasked withgutting the federal government.
Big Balls has a bunch of weird associations online.
(03:52):
There was a big outrage over thefact that he was working with
the government at all, let alonein the position that he was in.
And the Trump administration kind of rallied to his defense.
You know, it's like the libs gotmad, so the conservatives got
defensive or they got protective, right?
So allegedly a group of teenagers attempted to car Jack
(04:15):
big balls. Again, allegedly this is their
version of events. According, you know, looking at
police reports and some reporting that came out later,
seems to be some reason to doubtit went down exactly this way.
But again, allegedly they left big balls beaten and bloodied.
Picture of him looking roughed up floated around the Internet
(04:36):
drawing mockery from his haters.But this seems to be the impetus
of why Trump deployed the military or or I guess called in
the military to DC. You know, it's like this idea,
it seems, had been kind of floating around for a little
bit, but then they came for big balls and something had to be
(04:57):
done. Yeah, of course something had to
be done because of big balls. So in, in in mid August, the
National Guard shows up hundreds, nearly thousand troops
lining the streets by some accounts.
And he brought in troops from other states, West Virginia,
South Carolina, Ohio. Our government later gave these
(05:18):
guys weapons and the operation became more entrenched.
DC residents have not been happyabout this as the federal
presence unfolded in their city.There were protests.
There is a now kind of infamous clip of a guy throwing a hoagie,
(05:40):
A grinder, a sub, whatever you call it in your region.
A sandwich into the chest of a federal officer.
I enjoyed that clip quite a bit.It's just like slapstick classic
like sitcom comedy bit. Here's regular posting through a
guest, Hannah Gays getting into it with one of the guys on the
street who she caught filming her.
(06:01):
You can't see it in this audience audio, but it's a very
strange clip, right? It's like people are confronting
these federal officers and one of them pretends to be taking a
selfie, but he's recording Hannah in this clip.
Hey, ma'am, why are you filming me?
Good evening. How are you?
Why are you filming? Me.
How are you? Doing.
Today I'm good. How are you?
(06:22):
Why were you why were you takinga fake selfie?
I wouldn't take fake selfie. Oh, I I just have you on film
right now taking a fake selfie. Why are you?
Filming. Me.
Because you're in my city. Oh, really?
You live here. A Mayor, Muriel Bowser called
this federal occupation unsettling and unprecedented and
(06:44):
labeled it an authoritarian push.
But just recently, she seems to have changed her tone on it.
She's kind of painting it as a good thing, seemingly handing
the Trump administration a rhetorical victory.
And we greatly appreciate the surge of officers that enhance
what MPD has been able to do in this city.
(07:08):
DC Attorney General Brian Schwabalso filed A lawsuit against the
Trump administration, arguing the federal seizure of the MPD
and appointment of a Federal Emergency police commissioner
exceeded legal authority under the Home Rule Act.
He is seeking A restraining order to limit the federal
presence in the city. So the impact on all of this has
(07:31):
been debated. You know, how effective is it
actually been on crime? But some analysis shows
legitimately a decrease in violent crime under this new
authoritarian structure. It's also led to other things.
Drinking and dining in Washington, DC, has sharply
declined. Across the city.
Bars that cater to the queer community have seen a sharp
(07:52):
drop. Business owners have described
being hit with thousands of dollars in losses.
People aren't committing as manycrimes, but they're also not
going outside as much. People with means are leaving
the city to visit friends or family because they don't like
the vibe anymore. The occupation is supposed to
last until the end of the month,but they're intimations that it
(08:12):
may last longer. The issue of tackling crime in
this racialized way has been very popular with pro Trump
influencers who have been calling for action exactly like
this. Trump is apparently thinking
about taking this show on the road.
He set his sights on my beloved home, Chicago, specifically
promising that he's going to straighten out this bad city.
(08:35):
He claims supporters, including,quote, African American ladies,
are pleading for him to intervene.
After Chicago, he made Target. New York City feels like a
situation that could go hellishly wrong, to put it
mildly. And that's why we brought on
today's guest, Marissa Cabas. She's an independent writer and
reporter who publishes the Handbasket newsletter.
(08:58):
Marissa's been reporting on thisauthoritarian takeover of DC
since it started and is here to share some insights on exactly
how we got here and what might be coming next.
(09:25):
I mean, we're so excited to haveyou on just on so much reporting
a human newsroom. I, I guess like, let's, let's
start at the beginning here and just kind of how did we get
here? Why?
Why? Why?
Washington, DC? Well, thanks so much for having
me. How did we get here?
Well, that's quite a complex question that could take a while
to answer. But the short answer is that
(09:46):
Donald Trump, the president, lives in Washington, DC.
And so it is aside from West Palm Beach, FL, the city that he
sees the most often. And he was on his way to a golf
game somewhat recently and noticed that there were a lot of
unhoused people on the streets of DC.
And that was unacceptable to hiseye.
(10:10):
And so he decided to declare a crime emergency instead of, you
know, providing housing or food or anything else that could
solve that problem. And it's quickly escalated into
just the complete military occupation of the nation's
capital. So this has been in the
headlines a lot. What we're seeing in TC is kind
(10:31):
of a mix of you have the National Guard coming in and
then this whole bevy of federal agents.
I've seen so many photos of people kidded up in a, you know,
tactical gear or tactical tress wandering around the National
Mall, wandering around neighborhoods and northwest and
(10:52):
the close northeast side of DC. What is it actually looking like
on the ground there? I haven't been there myself so I
can only say based on the many videos and photos that I've been
shared directly with me, but it looks like a mixture of military
occupation and then also boredomat the same time because there's
(11:14):
a lot of especially National Guards members that have nothing
to do. There was a photo the other day
of them picking up trash. And, you know, who knows why
they were doing that? Maybe that was to make them look
less scary to the community. But regardless, it doesn't seem
like there's actually a lot of work for them to do.
And because so many people are scared to be out and about right
(11:37):
now because of their presence, there's even fewer people than
usual to to patrol and to intimidate if they so choose to.
And so it's it's just like a lotof hanging out, you know, like
they obviously the sandwich guy is, is infamous now.
But like, there were there was apicture of guardsmen hanging out
(11:58):
in front of a Krispy Kreme and someone was like, oh, they just
want that thrown at them instead.
Sometimes life imitates art. Yeah.
I mean, what can you tell as faras the apparent plan here?
I feel like that's something I've heard a lot.
You know, basically DC has been inundated with National Guard
(12:22):
troops with an influx of federalagents, and the exact plan for
what they're supposed to be doing isn't totally clear.
You know, I've heard that a lot.It is that true or, or what's
your sense of it? Yeah, I don't think there's a
clear plan. As with most Trump things, it's
sort of slapdash and just makingit up as he goes.
(12:43):
I know from members of the, the DC National Guard that they're
getting their orders very haphazardly.
They're not coming through the normal channels.
They're coming through text messages.
And they, they got an alert thatthey were being deployed via
text message, like via mass alert.
And that's just not, as I understand it normally how, how
(13:05):
things are done. So I don't think that there's a
real plan. They are now arming the members
of the National Guard, which is not something you were doing at
the beginning. And as I reported, they are
armed with these M17 pistols. And no one could quite figure
out why exactly those weapons. And there may not be a
(13:27):
particularly good reason. It may just be like that's
what's available in the Armory. But it's a lot of improv, I
would say. You know, in, in this whole,
there's no plan part of it. That sounds like there's also no
end date, right? And that's what I think is
probably most concerning to DC residents and also to residents
(13:48):
of other cities. We'll get into that in a bit
because it's it this seems like it's a sort of, you know,
something that's spreading around the country.
But if there's no, if there's noend date, that makes me, I don't
know. This is not a question, more of
a statement to respond to. But that makes me pretty
concerned considering Trump's other authoritarian tendencies,
(14:09):
right? You know.
Yeah, Well, it's supposed to endSeptember 30th.
You know, that's technically theend of this.
It's not a deployment because it's domestic, but this
assignment and Mayor Bowser, theDC mayor made a comment the
other day that they're talking about, she's talking with Trump
about extending it because she'ssupportive of, of what these
(14:33):
troops and federal agents are doing there.
So there is technically an end date, but it's not at all like a
hard stop. And even if they don't
technically renew it, what's going to stop them from just
hanging out longer? I mean nothing.
DC is kind of unique. It is not a state.
(14:53):
It is, you know, a big city. It is a district.
It is kind of in this weird zone, right, where people who
live in DC don't have any representation in the federal
government. They don't really have much say.
The city's government is kind ofsubject to the whims of Congress
(15:13):
and and that sort of thing. What about DC?
Should people understand in terms of how it is unique and
how to set up in a different waythat makes, you know, deploying
or I guess not deploying, but, you know, installing military
and federal agents and stuff easier for Trump or, or like
(15:35):
what about the dynamics changes just based on the geography of
where this is happening right now?
Well, it's, it's a federal district, so there are so many
different levels of law enforcement within a very small
relative area. So you have the Metropolitan
Police, but then you also have the presence of every other
(15:57):
federal agency because they're based there.
And they, yeah, I mean, that's where most of them operate out
of. So the fact that it's all kind
of physically concentrated, I think helps ease the speed and,
and the, you know, the amount inwhich that they were able to
populate the streets with, with soldiers.
(16:18):
But then on the other hand, it'sjust a regular city.
It's a, it's a real city where real people live and work and go
to school. And it's not just Capitol Hill.
It's not just the monuments, youknow, it's, it's a thriving,
very diverse city. I think I believe it has one of
the largest black populations and in the country for a city,
(16:39):
not quite half, but I, I would, I think over 40%.
And, and there's a lot of racialdynamics at play.
There's a lot of, you know, segregated housing, You know,
it's a, it's a complicated city.And I think that it's Trump is
explaining those those complications and he is, you
(17:01):
know, he's trying to care to a certain type of person and
trying to convince them that they are not safe where they
live. When the truth is that, you
know, is it perfect? No, obviously not.
But in a city of of Batman people, you're going to have
things happen. And he's trying to create an
image of DC that is just simply not real.
(17:24):
One thing that really struck me at the beginning of this was
that you'd have videos of black people in their own
neighborhoods, right? And somebody would be smoking
weed somewhere on the street. And, you know, you have a like a
group of like 5-6 guys in, you know, I mean, what do you think
that? I mean, what is the
psychological impact of something like that?
(17:46):
As you know, that that to me makes it so surprising to see,
you know, Mayor Bowser kind of apologize for Trump because it's
it, it does seem like it's because of the large percentage
of black people in the city. As you pointed out, it seems
like it's, it's very, you know, pointed at the black community.
I think so. At the same time, the black
(18:07):
communities, the majority black communities are the ones who are
most used to having a law enforcement presence around.
So seeing cops kind of roaming the streets or, or giving them
problems or stopping them is actually probably not as jarring
to them as it is to like the mostly white people in DCI.
Mean I've seen a bunch of videosfrom these neighborhoods and
(18:31):
like in one of them, the people who were watching these federal
agents kind of like looking in cars or like making fun of them.
They're laughing at them. They they didn't really seem
that scared of them because and a lot of these people were like
younger. Some of them are like teenagers.
And I think they just are are used to being over policed and
(18:51):
and having their actions watched.
And so I'm sure it's uncomfortable and it makes them
feel even less safe, but authority was never their friend
to begin with. So Trump and his administration
cronies are talking about expanding this.
As we've mentioned earlier, they're talking about places
(19:13):
like New York, Sweet home Chicago.
For me, I worry how that will godown because I don't feel like
this is a city. It's the Chicago way is hating
the government even people you vote for?
You know, the city rallies around their next mayor.
The mayor gets like a month in office and then everybody hates
them. Just blanket.
They're also talking about Boston.
(19:34):
We saw a kind of a precursor to this stuff in LA.
Do you have any thoughts about sort of how they are selecting
these places or you know, what we can realistically expect in,
in terms of their ability to expand this project, expand this
(19:54):
show of force? You know, as we've mentioned, DC
is a, a federal district. So it, you know, has kind of a
different code and maybe a bit easier to orchestrate something
like this there, whereas in states you need.
Some buy in from state governments and that sort of
thing. How realistic is it that Trump
might order similar shows of force in other places around the
(20:18):
country? I mean, certainly there's some
more obstacles, but I also don'tknow that this administration
has really shown itself to be too respectful of the precious
norms and. Of course, yeah, I think it it
depends on a lot of things. I think it depends in the order
in which he tries to go to the cities.
(20:38):
So for example, I think if he tried to do Chicago first, which
seems like, you know, he set hissights on Chicago.
Governor Pritzker has shown a real backbone and shown that he
will not take this lying down, which is setting an incredible
example for other states to follow.
Because, for example, if they came to New York first, I can't
really imagine Governor Hochul being like, over my dead body.
(21:01):
Will you come in? Like she'll probably like post a
few things about like how this is terrible and, you know, on
American. But I so I think if, if he goes
for Chicago first, it would actually be a huge mistake
because there will be an enormous opposition.
And I think the fact that he hasn't done it yet has shown
that there are obstacles. Because if it was really as easy
(21:22):
as what he did in DC, we would already be seeing troops on the
ground in Chicago. And I think that he's selecting
obviously cities in blue states.You mean it's like really not
that deep? He hates Democrats, he hates
states that didn't vote for him,and he is trying to punish us.
My going paranoid fear is that he's going to just like they're
(21:44):
just going to like arrest mom Donnie.
That's going to be like the New York mission just going to
arrest mom Donnie and like try to deport him somewhere.
And but I, I know that's paranoid and ridiculous, but
like part of me is like. It's not.
I remember in 20/16/2017 advising people who had green
cards be like, you need to watchout because I got to spend a lot
(22:06):
of time reporting on Stephen Miller and like all these like,
you know, white nationalist groups that influence Miller, be
there and all these things. And I was like, they're, they
want to get rid of green cards. They want, you know, and people
like, no, a green card doesn't, you can't do anything.
Like I was like, just don't riskit.
And then what happened like years later, now we're talking
(22:27):
about people with green cards getting deported, right?
So I don't know, I just feel like they don't like mom Donnie
and he's a symbol and they're just that's my I know that's not
useful for this conversation necessary, but I just thought
about it with New York, like what are they going to do when
they get in there? That's like the first person
they're. Going to get rid of you're.
You're absolutely right. I was literally talking about
this last night with a friend. We're talking about the mayoral
(22:49):
race and we're obviously very excited about mom Donnie.
And I don't really see who wouldbeat him at this point.
So it's things are looking good.But at the same time, like I'm
imagining a scenario where election night is like the
highest high and then the very next day is, hey, the troops are
rolling in. I actually compared it to, do
(23:11):
you remember, I believe it was January 5th, 2021, where we won
the 2 elections in Georgia, the two Senate elections, and the
Democrats got the majority of the Senate for the first time in
a while. And then the very next day,
January 6th happened and it was like a whiplash.
And so that is definitely a scenario, I imagine.
(23:34):
And you know, it's not just Trump mobilizing.
And so I'm Donnie, that's like awhole other thing.
So there's a lot of people who would like to see New York beat
down a little bit. Yeah, I think it's also, he's
ideologically an answer to Trumpism in many ways, right.
And that's a threat to on top ofhis, his, his backwards ethnic
(23:55):
background and everything else and his and his, and the fact
that he, you know, there's something sexy about him.
I don't mean that like literallylike, oh, be sexy.
I mean it like. I mean, he's not.
He's not not. OK, OK, that's fine.
That's fine, That's fine, that'sfine.
No, but my, my point is that like there's, there's, there's
something going, you know, it's like he, he, he's not Obama in,
(24:19):
in 2007, 2008. He's not that he's, he's, he's a
mayoral candidate, but he represents, he's giving people
hope and excitement when at a time where Trump is very used to
the Democrats just being the theWashington generals to his
Harlem Globetrotters, right? Like he's, you know, they're
just there to get their ass kicked and he's not liking, you
(24:42):
know, this young whippersnapper.Yeah, but either is the
Democratic Party right like that?
There, that's what's part of part of what's giving him so
much juice, right, Like is also that right, is the fact that
he's going against that. And then you have these
candidates popping up in other states, too.
There's that new Senate candidate in Maine.
I'm blanking on his name that he's like a fisherman or lobster
(25:07):
or something, man. And he's a very populist
progressive and, and he's not getting Schumer's backing as of
yet. And I think that Schumer is
looking for a candidate to run against him.
And it's like, imagine if we just embraced all this populist
energy and like, I don't know, just see how it plays out.
It couldn't be worse than what'shappening now.
(25:30):
But for some reason, I get the feeling that leadership thinks
it is worse. But I guess that's a
conversation for another time. Yeah, Marissa, I think you are.
You're really right in pointing out the difference between
Pritzker and some of these New York politicians.
I think that's a really astute observation.
Well, Speaking of those other politicians, I want to talk a
(25:50):
little bit about how Democrats have responded, or perhaps not
responded to what is happening in DC now.
Congress is in recess, right? Recess out of session.
I don't know if those are different or the same, but.
They're not they're. Not there.
Capitol Hill's, you know, fairlyquiet now.
(26:12):
They're not going to be back until next month.
But it'll be curious to see if these members, you know, once
they are actually there, assuming they ever leave, like
Navy Yard or Capitol Hill in between, you know, going back
and forth to the office, if thatwill change their responses at
(26:34):
all. I mean, what is kind of the
mainstream Democrat response been to this military occupation
of DC? Obviously, there's exceptions,
like my boy JB Pritzker, governor of Illinois these days.
You don't. JB Pritzker is not a perfect
politician by any stretch of theimagination.
But it is refreshing to see that, you know, the place I call
(26:57):
home is showing like the bare minimum of a back.
There is a semblance of, you know, the X-ray machine is at
least turned on. And you can assume maybe there's
a backbone in there somewhere, you know, but.
And there's and there's a, a fight, there's some fighting
spirit. And his press conference the
other day was very, I forgot theexact quote, but he was like,
you know, come at me and I'll, I'll come back, You know.
(27:21):
And I think that that's a message that has not been coming
across at all because Democrats aren't really coming back at the
current federal administration with any sort of concerted
effort, with any sort of unity. They should be like out front in
the Capitol, like laying on the freaking ground, you know, like
(27:41):
they should be camped out there until like, something is
changed. There's something dramatic needs
to happen. And I think they just think that
they put out press releases and,you know, do ATV hit or
something that it's enough. And it's just simply not enough
because it's not breaking through to people.
People do not feel like Democrats have this handled at
(28:03):
all. So obviously they're not
handling it appropriately. It almost seems like the
calculus is that they're just going to lean into being wonky,
being like, well, if you look atthe polls, they trust us on
inflation. If you look at the polls, you
know, they think we're more competent leaders.
But also, if you look at the polls, there is, like, no faith
(28:24):
in the Democratic Party right now because it seems to be
completely out to lunch while somany people in this country are
scared, not just for themselves,but for their neighbors, for the
people they care about in their communities.
And people don't know where it'sgoing to stop, right?
And it's like, these are supposed to be the leaders of
(28:45):
our country. They're supposed to be the ones
that kind of put, you know, their skin in the game, and
instead they're just doing whatever the hell else it is
they're doing. I don't even know town halls,
media hits, you know? Like barely, you know, and, and
the town halls that have happened have not been going
(29:05):
well. A lot of Democratic members of
Congress who are supportive of Israel have been getting a lot
of pushback of getting a lot of people attending and, and, you
know, shouting them down. So these these aren't good
productive meetings. And I actually, it just like
kind of dawned on me, like it kind of blows my mind that, you
know, that they're in recess, that none of them have come back
(29:27):
to the district while this is happening.
Like it's really easy to hop on a plane or a train from wherever
they are and do something. And they're really like, they're
leaving the City High and dry. It's pretty, pretty gross when
you think about it. It's like the whole city
revolves around the capital and the government and, and the
(29:47):
people who work there. And then they just peace out for
all of August and say figure it out.
And so I, I think some people will kind of Pearl clutch a
little bit when they see it in person.
But also, it's probably not going to be like, like you said,
like right where they live or where they work.
They're not going to actually beas exposed to it.
And who can say? But I can't imagine like an IS
(30:10):
agent trying to like body slam amember of Congress.
But crazier things have happened, I guess.
Never say never. I watch way more MSNBC than I
should. Like I, you know, it's like a
low dose of poison I take every day.
It's a workplace hazard here at posting through it.
And and I like I because I want to know give me the talking
(30:31):
point. Just just tell me what the
talking points are and like, I what I don't understand and
maybe I should write talking points for them.
What I don't understand is like,why are they everybody?
You know, they're, they're kind of like, you know, just the
crime is down, but this is authoritarian.
Why don't you just point out that businesses are suffering?
I don't understand why that is. They, they are not screaming
(30:53):
that from the rooftops because we saw like the LGBTQ community
in DC said, hey, you know, gay bars are down.
It's like 50, it's half or whatever, you know, because
people are scared. They're not on the streets.
And then you have just a regularbar traffic way down.
Dining is way down. Business owners are hurting
because people don't want to go out right now.
(31:14):
They feel like they're in a pandemic or something.
It's like a feel like an unforced pandemic.
It's just like a like, you know,just thrown at them.
And why aren't they screaming that from the rooftop?
Because like, yeah, carjacking is down when there are no cars,
like where people don't want to drive out of the house or like
half as many people. It seems like a very, it seems
like a layup and they're just not shooting the ball.
(31:35):
I don't understand. If I understood, I would be a
gazillionaire, I think. But I I there's, it's it's
really unfathomable. I just the other day DC
Councilwoman posted online that people shouldn't order DoorDash
and delivery because right now delivery workers were so exposed
(31:58):
to being pulled over and hassledand harassed by members of law
enforcement. And we've seen so many videos of
it, seen videos of them giving breathalyzer tests to, to random
delivery workers. A video I posted a week or so
ago, this delivery driver was just completely ambushed by, by
(32:19):
a crew of ICE agents as people sat by and, and ate brunch at
like a, a bougie place in Northwest.
And it's like, yeah, people don't want to go out to brunch
because they might see someone get the shit beat out of them.
And so that's not good for business either.
So it's just like it's completely knocked off the
entire ecosystem of commerce of,of social gatherings.
(32:43):
It, it's just making it a reallyunpleasant place to live.
And I don't, I, I don't know whyDemocrats are not seizing on
that. So zooming out a bit, you've
done a lot of coverage at the Handbasket, which is your
independent publication. Honest to God, just force of
nature. I, I am so impressed with what
(33:05):
you're doing with the handbasket.
You know, just running laughs around these like giant
publications. And then not only that, but also
your willingness to stand up foryourself and be like, cool story
New York Times who wrote about it first.
So on the handbasket, you've written a lot of stories about
(33:25):
things that I kind of mentally classify as like in the the
specter of performative cruelty that the Trump administration
has done. It's not entirely performative
because they're actually doing shit that's hurting people,
right? But performative in the sense of
like, does this solve the problem?
I don't know. But it gives the vibe of solving
(33:46):
the problem to its base. Things like the Alligator
Alcatraz facility in Florida, Everything is going on with ice.
The Doge cuts to the federal workforce and stuff.
And I'm curious, you know, as you look at what's happening now
and look back on some of your prior reporting, if you also
(34:07):
kind of see these as like storylines in the same cinematic
universe. Yeah, it is very much
performative. And with Trump, we know
everything is a performance and it's all about optics and it's
creating the appearance of strength, not actually being
strong. It's creating the appearance of
having a control over things. But at some point, the
(34:29):
appearance becomes reality because if he is taking over,
say, Washington, DC, like we've been talking about, and people
are scared and I think it's not,you know, safe to go there
because of this guard presence. Like he is kind of manifesting
it in a way. So even though he's not
achieving these by like traditional means, he is kind of
(34:53):
just achieving it by brute force, I guess you could say.
And yeah, I I don't know. I mean, even earlier on when
they were offering the deferred resignation program for federal
employees, which meant that theycould accept retirement or, you
know, except, yeah, except retirement and then still get
paid for another, you know, bunch of months.
(35:15):
At the beginning, it seemed likenot that many people were going
to take it. It was probably going to be a
huge flop, especially when Elon Musk was at the helm of all this
and and just like creating many more barriers than than helping.
But then in the end, you know, you look at the number of people
that have actually been eliminated from the federal
workforce between different resignation and firings.
(35:38):
And I believe it's something like 10% of the the federal
workforce. And so, yeah, we can sit here
and laugh at at how ridiculous it all is and, and how Elon
Musk, you know, embarrass himself.
But they they achieved what theywanted to do.
And this is just a few months in.
It's a lot of act now. Figure out what this means
(36:00):
later. And for them, they seem to keep
kind of figuring it out somehow.You mentioned the sort of
chaotic nature of the way this was implemented in DC and almost
certainly will be when it's taken to other liberal cities or
the way it was in Los Angeles. We forget about that already
happened right around the the ICE protests.
(36:24):
It seems to be like a truism in the public that that Trump is
react, you know, reacts this waywhen he feels weak or threatened
in some way, right? Where he where it's like the
Epstein scandal started to be make a lot of noise and and then
he and then he did this and or or big balls, you know, got beat
(36:46):
up, right. I never thought that would be
something I'd have to say, but yeah, I mean.
That's news analysis now. Big balls got beat up and you
know, I think that embarrassed them too.
There's a racial dynamic there. And he's like a sort of little
prize little guy that they've tried to protect because people
(37:08):
because, because the libs were so mad when he was when the
people discovered that he was hired in the first place.
Now, is he flying by the seat ofhis pants?
Or is this like, you know, the things like Alligator Alcatraz,
for instance, which is just so gross and obviously
authoritarian and creepy and fascistic and whatever other
words you want to throw at it. I mean, are, are these things
(37:30):
where it's like, yeah, I'm goingto do this.
Or is he kind of, you know, are these just is, is it
authoritarianism, authoritarianism by
improvisation? Like what?
What what is bottom text? Like, what am I saying?
I don't know which like what, how does this stuff, where does
this stuff come from? Like is it like we're going to
take over DC this late summer? I mean, or they or they just
(37:51):
like one day they're like just enough.
I mean, it's it's hard for me toknow.
Well, it's it's both, right? Because on one hand, someone
could bring an idea to Trump andhe's like, oh, cool, sounds
great. And he just signs off on it.
And there's no larger picture toany of it.
Like, for example, I'm working on a story that is hopefully
(38:12):
coming out in the next day or two about this member of the US
Park Police who's been caught oncamera multiple times, in one
instance brutalizing, you know, an innocent person and then just
being generally kind of a Dick around town.
And and then this week, there was that really creepy Cabinet
meeting where all the members ofthe Cabinet were kissing Trump's
(38:35):
ass. And Doug Burnham, the interior
secretary who overseas the US Park Police, was like, oh, it's
so great. You know, like, I realized that
the Park Police weren't allowed to engage in pursuits, like
vehicle pursuits. So I just went to President
Trump and I said, can we change that?
And in a day, he changed it. And now we're allowed to chase
(38:56):
people and the US Park Police are out there and they're just
having so much fun. He literally said that they're
having fun pulling people over. And so there's this like very
just like malleable, yeah, improv way about things.
But then on the other hand, there's project 2025 like so
much of this is laid out before.If more people took that
(39:18):
seriously, as you both well know, we may not be in in this
situation that we're in. So there's there's a blueprint
and then there's also writing kind of in the in the margins of
the blueprint to be like, what if we added that?
What if we added that? So it I think that's scary
because it's methodical and yet unpredictable at the same time.
(39:40):
Sounds like they know what they want to do, but they don't
always know how they're going todo it or when.
And that's kind of the element of surprise that Trump thrives
on. I mean, I that's just my my
analysis of what you're saying. Yeah, something that always
drove me crazy about the Project2025 discourse.
You know, it was brought up on the campaign trail in 2024.
(40:02):
You know, it certainly got. A fair share of coverage and
mainstream outlets and stuff. But like so much right wing
coverage or right wing criticism, it kind of focused on
the excesses of Project 2025. You know, weird paragraphs in
there about like voting rights or or women's rights or whatever
(40:25):
that are meant to provoke a reaction.
And I guess I get why people do that, right?
It's like, you're going to talk about this thing that's crazy
and here's the craziest stuff init.
But I feel like so much of that coverage or, or maybe it was
just, you know, lost in the details or embedded in the
subtext was the bigger project, right?
(40:46):
It's like, yes, they have these crazy ideas.
There are all kinds of insane people and just truly like
legitimately bigoted, hateful people that contributed to, you
know, writing up this giant white paper.
But the project at its core is aconsolidation of power in the
executive branch. That is the point of slashing
(41:07):
the federal workforce. That is the point of
intimidating these cities. That is the point of so much
stuff that they're doing is justdirecting more power to the
White House, specifically the Oval Office, and to political
appointees and away from, like, career bureaucrats and stuff.
That always drove me crazy. I think that was the scariest
(41:30):
part of the project. And just who signed on to it.
But you did a lot of reporting, Speaking of federal agencies
about the doge cuts. I mentioned that earlier.
You know, I imagine you had, youknow, lots of sources and folks
inside the government talking toyou.
This is kind of an aside, but I'm just curious if you talk to
(41:52):
people who are still in the government these days and what
that's looks like. Because I've seen, you know, the
photos and videos of them hanging up giant banners of
Trump's face on the building andstuff.
It reminds me of like when I wasin Northern Cyprus, right?
And like, you just see like all this Turkish government stuff
all over the place there. Or you walk into every every
(42:14):
store you walk into as like a framed photo of the leader above
the doorway and stuff. And just makes me think of that.
But I am just curious if if you have any sense of, like, what
the vibe is like inside the government these days now that
all of these changes have, you know, kind of come to fruition
and things continue to March offon this sort of dystopian
(42:36):
direction. Yeah, well, I definitely have
far fewer sources now than I didin February of this year.
And that's just a very literal testament to how many people
have have left the government, especially the people who are
frustrated enough to reach out to a reporter about it.
I guess the people that are still there, I don't, they're
(42:59):
just sort of like, it's just this low grade psychosis at all
times. And they are kind of prepared
for anything and not really too surprised by anything at this
point. You know, I can't speak for all
of them, but I get the sense that they just they have to keep
their jobs. They have families to support,
(43:20):
They have lives to support. And I know that certain people
have it better because of like good supervisors and good
managers and, and some of these leaders are able to kind of like
shield their teams from the, theworst of what's coming from the
top. But at a, at an agency, for
example, like FEMA, which I've, I've covered a lot, you know,
(43:42):
it's, it's not as large of an agency and every day is just
complete chaos. They're, they're doing life
saving work. They're working with stuff that
is so life or death and it's being treated like, you know,
complete like, like fake stuff, you know, like a game of, of
life, a game of Monopoly or something.
(44:02):
And so I don't know, I, I give so much credit to the people who
have stayed because it's so easyto say from the outside, like
what everyone should stay, you know, protest and stand up to
what's going on. But like, that's not an easy
thing to do. And who knows how many sources
they'll have left by the end of the year, honestly.
(44:24):
And they're sort of replacing, you know, it seems like if
they're not replacing somebody, you know, in literal sense with,
with someone else, it seems likeacross the government, they're
replacing in some way people whoare ideologically aligned with
MAGA, right? And so that's what the kind of
people we're getting. Those are the type of people who
(44:46):
are more enthusiastic to be on the streets of DC to bring it
back to the main topic of hand, right?
And that's troubling. And I think that also goes back
to what Jared was saying about the most troubling thing about
Project 2025 is that the more mundane ways in which it's just
completely offending the way thegovernment's run.
I was reading a story earlier today from Capital B News, which
(45:10):
is a great newsroom. And it was about this small town
in Louisiana that there was a petroleum plant nearby, I
believe. And there is an explosion, and
it's just raining down, like, black sludge onto this town that
has like, a 90% child poverty rate.
And, you know, that's obviously heinous on itself.
(45:31):
But then, you know, I'm reading through the whole story.
And then, of course, it's like, this seems to be the thing.
There always comes a point in every story.
It was like, oh, yeah. So the regional head of the EPA
who's tasked with cleaning up this town is some guy who used
to run stuff in Oklahoma, who wrote a portion of Project 2025
(45:52):
and argued that we need to deregulate everything with air
quality and water safety and allthe things that are currently
hurting this town. So it's like literally the worst
person for the job, the most evil possible person.
These people are, they're livingwith very little.
And this is a huge source of income from their town.
(46:12):
And the plant is currently shut down.
And this is the guy that's supposed to help them.
And that's just one town, one small town in Louisiana.
And so it's just shows the absolute insidiousness of of all
of it and how, yeah, we could cut the head off metaphorically
of Trump, but it's it's seeped in so deeply and, and so many
(46:34):
places that you don't even thinkabout.
It's the The Onion headline, buta little different.
The worst person you know just got a great job.
And there's so many of these guys I've, you know, weird
little guys or whatever you wantto call them, these like
incompetent middle men who luck out with these jobs just because
(46:55):
they're loyal to the president and have absolutely no idea what
they're doing. And our government's basically
run by those guys, you know, at least at the kind of second tier
leadership level. And and that's really scary.
Yeah, it's a government of reply, guys, sometimes quite
literally, you know. But before we get out of here,
(47:15):
you know, before we let you go, Marissa, I wanted to talk about
what you're doing with the handbasket.
As I mentioned earlier, you've managed to land some pretty big
stories and on certain topics from labs around like mainstream
news outlets that have hundreds or thousands of employees or,
and all kinds of resources and all kinds of sourcing.
(47:38):
What's your secret? No, no, you know, I'm just
curious, like as an independent journalist, sort of how you view
the role of independent journalism these days, you know,
especially as these mainstream news outlets, you know, are
cutting settlements with with the president and getting mushy
(48:02):
on covering certain topics. I mean, Mike and I can both
attest the far right beat in newsrooms is like virtually
incinerated. You know, there's a few people
hanging on that are are writing these stories at big outlets
and, you know, that's great. They're great journalists.
I'm not going to, you know, put them down that they're probably
clinging on for dear life. But it's just like so much of
(48:25):
journalism has changed. I I'm curious if you think
independent journalism is playing a different or, you
know, perhaps more important role than it has in the past.
I think so, or or at least a very different one, it's it's
manifesting differently. I think that there's a huge
(48:47):
distrust across the board and big institutions.
So whether that's the governmentor corporate news outlets and
people with tons of money and tons of power who, like you
said, are willing to settle, whoare willing to compromise their
beliefs for their bottom line, are not necessarily the people
that you want to be hearing fromwhen we're free falling into
(49:08):
fascism. And I think the fact that I'm
not, you know, bought and sold, I don't have the backing of
literally anyone besides my readers is just, it's a pretty
transparent way to see that I'm not answering to anybody aside
from those people. And I think also, like, I'm very
(49:30):
open about my process. I, I post too much and, but I,
I, I, I try to kind of demystifythis process because I think
that these large outlets make itseem a lot more complicated than
it actually is. It's like you literally just
have to find the right people totalk to have them trust you,
earn their trust, get the information in an ethical way,
(49:54):
cross some TS, dot some I's, maybe do a quick legal review.
And that's, that's a news story,you know, and there's, I guess
for me, I don't have to run it by like my corporate sponsors,
like, is this OK? Is this going to like mess up
your quarterly report? I don't have to deal with with
any of that. So I think that the moment just
ended up being kind of perfect. You know, I started the
(50:16):
handbasket well before this administration, but it's only
now that it has really taken offbecause there seems to be such
an appetite for for people working out outside the system,
I think. One issue with independent
reporting that I'm sure you feela lot of pressure because come a
(50:37):
certain time a week, you know, you've got people who are
donating to your work or, or to paying for it, whatever.
And then you know, the, the content, you know, you have to
keep the content going, which I think is really sometimes
counterintuitive to news. And I like, I'm just curious
about that because you do very good kind of the, the standard
newspaper story in in a sense, like, like lengthwise, you'll do
(51:01):
that and, and zoom just bang it out.
But sometimes it's like the typeof investigations that I had
that I was able to do when I waswith SPLC and I was given a lot
of time and leash like to do nine months or 10 months on
something that kind of that's, that's really tough.
And I'm just, I'm just curious, like if you feel like, you know,
you ever want to like stop what you're doing?
(51:23):
And just like I need to want to need to work on this for three
months or four months is, you know, is that challenging
because because you're getting good information all the time.
It's really challenging and it'shard to there's I'm, I'm very
hard on myself and I often feel like, Oh my God, I'm, you know,
I'm letting my subscribers down.I haven't published enough this
week, You know, for example, this month I've been traveling a
(51:46):
lot, mix of work stuff and, you know, a little vacation.
And yeah, I mean, there's no oneto fill in for me, you know,
it's just. Yeah, it's like, guys, I need to
go on vacation, Please. I'm crying here.
Jared and I are recently. We we're we're, we're, we, we
like doubled our, our content demand by moving to Patreon.
(52:07):
So like we're, we're just going to run into it head first.
It's a lie. And I am very much of the mind
like I'm not going to publish something if I don't think it's
worth publishing. It's definitely not a volume
play for me. And different independent
journalists have different philosophies about that.
Like you can talk to someone else and they'll say just
(52:27):
publish, publish, publish. That is the key.
And just like get your stuff in front of people.
And then my approach, which honestly wasn't even really on
purpose. I think it's just my style and
maybe I'm not as fast as other people, but I'm like, I'm going
to write stuff that I think is important and that matters to me
and other people. And I'm setting the expectation
(52:48):
that when something drops in your inbox, it's something that
means something. It's not, I'm not just filling
space. I'm not just trying to remind
you that I exist. So people know that when they
get a handbasket story like thisshould be something that's
pretty substantive. And I don't have an editorial
calendar. I don't have a set publishing
schedule. Those are all things that were
(53:09):
told to me that were essential to in order to be successful as
an independent journalist. And I mean, maybe it's my type B
personality or laziness, I don'tknow.
You don't seem very lazy from I've just met you but you know
I've only seen you like online before this.
Just not the vibe I get. Thank you, thank you.
I appreciate it. Well, I would say I'm definitely
(53:31):
not Taipei that that is what I will say.
I'm not a hyper organized, you know, just like head down and
kind of scatterbrain and but I, I figured out a way to make it
work for me, which is also the really nice thing about being
independent like you, you make your own rules, you make your
own schedule. You're not just meeting a quota
for the week that you know your editor is asking of you.
(53:53):
I'm so, yeah. I mean, people have asked, like,
if you got an offer at one of these big outlets, you know,
would you take it? It's a question I get a lot.
And at this point, like, no, no,because I can't be fired
tomorrow. And that's a really great
feeling. Yeah, live in the dream, baby.
Marissa Kavis, thanks for joining posting through it.
(54:16):
It's been a pleasure to get to chat with you and, and get, you
know, some of your takes and, and information about it's crazy
shit that's happening in DC potentially coming to a city
near us. Hopefully not, but I guess we'll
just have to see how, how the cards fall.
Marissa, where can people check out the handbasket and follow
(54:37):
you online? All that good stuff.
So you can check out the handbasket at the handbasket.co
and you can find me on Blue Sky at Marissa Cabas, just my full
name. Those are the 2 main places.
And yeah, you can become a free subscriber at first, see how you
like it and then upgrade to a paid subscription.
(54:58):
All the support is great and helps a lot.
We'll throw thanks to those downin the episode description so
you can go check it out. Thanks so much guys.
Thanks, Marissa. I was so glad that Marissa was
able to join us. I really appreciated her
reporting. Especially this year.
It feels like the handbaskets really taking off, and it was
(55:20):
cool that we got to talk to somebody who has been kind of
reporting the cutting edge of this stuff, you know, however
bleak the topic may be. I love our guests.
We got so many great guests and we're going to keep producing
episodes exactly like this, which is why you listener,
should sign up for our Patreon. The link is in the description.
(55:43):
We will be going twice a week going forward.
Jared and I are ready to run through walls for you.
And yeah, I'm very excited aboutit, man.
I'm really excited. It's mostly because I get to
hang out with you. That's the main reason I'm
excited. Yeah, people are saying this is
a cash grab and then posting through it is for jocks No, but
but your support on Patreon means so much.
(56:05):
I mean, we've seen so many people sign up and we have it,
you know, I mean, this is the first week we're going to be
releasing these bonus episodes, right?
So for that many people to sign up to support us and and help us
do it. Without even doing an episode,
doing a premium episode. Yeah, it's kind of kind of
amazing, honestly. I, I got to say, I'm genuinely
heartened and it's tough. My heart is really like covered
(56:28):
with with scales at this point. Yeah, it's if I think about it
too long, I start to get mushy. But before I get mushy, let's
get out of here, guys. We'll see our Patreon supporters
on Thursday, and we'll see the rest of you guys on Monday.
Take care. Bye bye.
(57:13):
Tell me a secret so. I can erase.
It but I need to keep it keep it.
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