046: Looking for Terrorists Under My Bed feat. Kelvin Pierce

Jared and Mike catch up on MAGA’s witch hunt for "Antifa" terrorists and find that it isn’t going particularly well. The White House has leaned on laughable influencers to persuade the public that Antifa actually exists and that protesters wearing Cookie Monster and Barney the Dinosaur costumes are proof of the problem. The guys play audio from an insane hype reel created by the White House and hear from Daryle Lamont Jenkins, who Andy Ngo since claimed is the "main leader" of Antifa.

In the second half of this episode, the PTI crew details the history of "The Turner Diaries": an infamous white supremacist book that has inspired deadly acts of racist terrorism. They spoke to Kelvin Pierce, the son of William Luther Pierce, the prominent neo-Nazi who wrote the book, and hear how he rejected his father’s ideology and worked to build a different world.

• The Turner Legacy: The Storied Origins and Enduring Impact of White Nationalism’s Deadly Bible, J.M. Berger (2023)

• One People's Project

Links for Kelvin Pierce:

• Sins of My Father: Growing Up with America's Most Dangerous White Supremacist (2020)

• The Divine Child Foundation

Transition Music: "Back to the Wind" by Whitney

Sign up for Patreon to get weekly bonus episodes

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
And you're watching it in Portland.
Portland really is the prime example.
And President Trump just had so many of the influencers whose
lives were threatened, who were Caitlyn, the beautiful blonde
woman who had the black eye froman Antifa member, that they're,
they're threatening them online with violent acts.
It's organized crime. They're completely organized.
They're at all of these events. They're encouraging violence.

(00:22):
They're calling everyone fascist.
But it's more than that. It's hurting the American
people. And that's why they're no
different than MS13 or any gang out there.

(01:02):
Welcome back to posting through it.
I'm Jared. And I'm Mike.
Starting now, could it give someshout outs to our newest Patreon
supporters? In the Executive Club, we've got
Matt Etheridge and Jesse Comer. In the Platinum tier, we have
Alyssa Bedwell. Thanks so much for signing up to
support the show. We've been having a ton of fun
on the premium feed. The last one we did, hey, a butt

(01:26):
rock song that was recorded by Mike and I and Mike, I have to
say, you really carried the chorus.
I I didn't know you had that in you, but the Antifa.
Yes, I did my best. I did my best with my with maybe
my least favorite genre of music.
And I want to say to one of our listeners who pointed out that I

(01:47):
don't need to shout out the Patreon on the Patreon episodes
themselves. Yes, actually, I don't know what
day it is that is the problem. I don't, I don't know what day
it is. I just turn around and I'm
podcasting again. This is too much content, but
we're loving it. We're.
Shouting out the Patreon here, so you should sign up and get

(02:07):
access to that and get access toour reading series which was
about Catherine Dee's an articleon Nick Fuentes, female Nick
Fuentes fans. I was a delight.
I don't think she was particularly happy about it.
She messaged us a bit, signed upfor the Patreon as well.
Yeah, yeah, shout out to our standard.

(02:29):
You know our, our, our premium tier member Catherine D who I, I
don't think is in the premium tier any longer.
But anyway, today's episode, we're going to talk about some
stuff before we get there, but it comes from a listener request
from one of our executive club members.

(02:49):
And it's a closer look at the Turner Diaries, which is a
fictional dystopian novel written by one of the most
influential white supremacist extremists of, you know, the pre
2000s era and kind of served as the Bible for white supremacist
terrorists census publication. So that's going to be pretty
heavy. So I think we got a we got to

(03:12):
talk about Antifa. Yeah, Antifa.
But, you know, it's not totally unrelated, Jared, because
they're trying to claim that leftists are doing Turner
Diaries every time they go out into the street dressed as
Barney the Dinosaur. So we should reckon with it.
So this is something that seems to be, you know, really animate

(03:33):
our audience. People seem to be interested in
this topic. I We have no political bent on
this show, so I'm kind of surprised, but.
Yeah, yeah, we play. We play it down the middle here.
I'm posting through it. People don't seem to like the
fact that that, you know, Antifais the target of the federal
government here. But yeah, a couple weeks back

(03:57):
they hosted a round table, if you recall Jared, and it was a
sort of a who's who of people who have been punched by Antifa
or attacked by Antifa, mostly right wing influencers.
Yeah, it was very bizarre, the purpose of this and we've talked

(04:18):
about it on premium episodes. I don't know if we've really
talked about it on the main feed, but it's, you know, at the
point of these influencers, like, why are they there?
Why are they doing whatever it is to justify the military
occupation that the Trump administration would like to do
in liberal cities across the US,places like Portland, places

(04:41):
like Chicago. So what they're doing is giving
like a valet treatment to these folks, boosting them, giving
them special access to officialsand facilities and stuff.
And what they do is they just gothere and they film protesters.
And, you know, they film somebody, film people in Barney

(05:02):
the dinosaur suits. And they're like, the radical
left is a deadly menace to this country.
And only, only Daddy Trump can fix the problem.
And if I may, fascists always need an enemy, right?
I mean, that's or a scapegoat oran enemy of some kind.

(05:24):
It's it's you versus them. It's on two different sides of
the line. And they are right now embattled
by a lot of bad press that really that wave started with
Epstein. But it's been across the board
and the economy has not been doing great.
There's signs that it may not bedoing very well going forward.

(05:45):
Yeah, I opened up my my Fidelityaccount or my retirement savings
sit and I was like, wow, that looks that line is going the
wrong direction right now. Line go down.
Line go down what? So so I'm.
Scared. We need, we, we need an enemy
and we need to make sure that everybody thinks Antifa is

(06:06):
dangerous or thinks Antifa is even real.
And, and when I say it's, you know, insinuate that it's not
real. It is a style of protest.
It's a kind of protest. Not really the way they're
depicting it. They're depicting it as a series
of cells, organized cells and soforth.
And that's just I mean. They're treating it like a gang.

(06:29):
They're treating it like it's the mafia.
It's like the movie The Warriors, right?
Where there's like all these chapters of Antifa as they, you
know, storming through the the subways at night.
Yeah, yeah. It's it's, you know, those old
movies where it's like, Oh, yeah, that aluminum recycling
plant, that's a front for the Gambino family, except they're
like, oh, you see that organic smoothie parlor?

(06:53):
That's a front operation for Antifa.
One of the people they brought out, Jared, is someone our
premium subscribers already knowabout.
Her name is Katie Davis Davis Court.
But we we just call it, we call it for some reason, we just keep
calling her Katie Davenport. And so I think we're just going

(07:14):
to keep doing that. Shout out to E Iowa I feel.
I feel like you did a little investigative reporting about
her, her face. Yeah, so Katie Davis court
clenching my fist saying saying this name correctly.
She got headlines. So just very briefly for people

(07:34):
who don't know who she is, whichwhy would you?
She is like Andy knows sort of protege at the Post Millennial,
which is just the junk news blogpolitical operation run out of
Canada. And what she does like basically
when Andy got too scared and freaked out to actually go cover

(07:57):
protests anymore and then he moved to the UK, Katie kind of
picked up the mantle and she sheis now somebody who will go to
protest out in Portland OR Seattle, just anywhere Pacific
Northwest and produce the Antifascary clips that Andy shares.
Really. I I mean that it that's kind of

(08:18):
her function, right? And something happened.
I think it was last month. Yeah, it was last month.
Something happened. I I'm not.
Someone hit it with a flag. I believe it may have been a
Palestinian fly free. Like, you know, some sort of
thing related to Palestine. OK, is it?
Yeah. So that's what happened.
She gets hit with a flag and it it gives her a Shiner around her

(08:40):
eye so she gets a black. Eye barely.
It was like a nick around her eye.
It looked like it like kind of nicked her like a little cut.
Like when I got a shaving cut that's like bad like down there.
It was a little bigger than thatand it was like right around the
edge of her eye. Yeah, yeah.
So anyway, her eye kind of swells up a little bit.
You know, it gets the area around her eyes discolor it a

(09:01):
bit. It gets her a Fox News
appearance where it looks just like terrible and, and I, I
don't know, injuries in that area of your face.
You know, it's they like look worse and then look better and
then you know it, they're kind of funny.
But then she when she goes to this White House round table,
her black eye, if this is like it's got to be more than a week

(09:24):
after this happened, her black eye looks the worst it's ever
looked. You know, you skipped over
something that there was a picture outside of her where she
took, like, a selfie with Andy. No, it's sort of like we made
it. We're in the White House, you
know, Go, girl. This kind of vibe in the
picture, boss. Yeah.
And it you, you don't really seethe same thing.

(09:46):
And then she comes in and she looks like, you know, completely
wrecked. Yeah, I mean, she looks like
Blanche Med Ali like. Or Blanche du Bois at the end of
Streetcar Named Desire or something.
So it some speculation over whether that was the product of
make up over this entry with theflag.

(10:09):
And you know, I think the make up is a real possibility given
who we're dealing with here. Right, The fact the, the fact
that these people make up like 50% of things.
I, I, I just imagine Andy no, ifshe if, if, if she got the flu,
if Katie Davenport Davis core, whatever got the flu, you could
just I could just imagine no like desperately on the phone
with like urgent care and stuff like that.

(10:30):
It's like I need her out there. That's where I get my clips.
Like, you know, 'cause he doesn't, he doesn't go out
anymore. It's all.
It's the only. Doesn't do anything between.
Her and and make comments but Andy himself has been really
worked up into a lather Jared about The Muppets about the
antifa I'm calling them the Antifa Muppets.
There's people in these in thesespirit Halloween costumes that

(10:54):
are and and they made them. They get those.
You can see people just being like that.
You can see people just like, you know, vaping weed in the
parking lot and being like, I'm going to get the dumbest shit in
there. And then they go in and they're
like, do you have any Lightning McQueen like inflatable thing?
It's like, no, we have cookie monster.
Like, all right, I'll do that. You know, the dumbest possible

(11:17):
once and and Andy is like so desperate.
He's so desperate to like, make this into some sort of like
seventies 80s dystopian, you know, warlord like sci-fi movie
out in Portland. Well, he has to, right?
Because it completely undercuts the story that they're trying to
tell about. Like, these are like militant

(11:41):
psychopaths out here who are just itching to pull the trigger
and kill an ice agent. And then like, the camera turns
and you just have like inflatable frogs and Barney
bouncing around and like. Yeah, he's directing some movie
called Escape from Portland in his mind, and it's just like it.
There's nothing but but guys dressed in black just just

(12:04):
executing old ladies in the street with like, like with no
feeling, just, you know, like that's his.
That's, that's what that's the story in his mind.
But instead of that, you know, Barney the dinosaur shows up and
is like, do, do, do, do, do like, you know, just in front of
the camera. And he has.
That's what he has to work with.It's a bunch of inflatable

(12:24):
animals, unicorns, teddy bears, Winnie the Pooh, whatever.
Just like bouncing around. Well, like rave music, like,
it's like, so nothing's happening.
I need to read a couple of Andy's tweets here and I love
that he puts the the the the thecity name and the date at the

(12:46):
beginning like it's like. It's a newswire.
That's a war journal, you know. And he says Portland, October
6th, a person has shown up in a Barney costume at the Anti Ice
Direct Action. The costumes are meant to make
the riots look like family friendly events suitable for

(13:06):
children. It is meant to sanitize Antifa's
image. It's so good.
Here's another riots. The riots also.
That it doesn't matter. It's like he's just like, he's
just, he's just mad. He's just seething that the
Barney costume is there because he has to talk about it.
And what he wants to talk about it is just like this imaginary

(13:28):
guy in a ski mask just shooting an old lady who's begging for
her life. That's what he thinks ANTIFA is.
And then the reality is there's some guy who's just like stoned
being like hi, hi Andy from froma Barney costume.
There's another one. This is in Chicago.
You've seen how violent a far left extremists have been

(13:50):
against ICE in Broadview, IL. They are highly organized and
now learning from the left wing propaganda in Portland, have
purchased their own animal costumes to whitewash the
violence in Chicago. That's I like how Antifa is like
he's killed. We've killed 700 people.

(14:12):
What are we gonna do? We we've executed 700 old ladies
in the street. What are we gonna shoot around?
We're gonna. We're losing support.
Somebody is like just like shooting up and like, you know,
this derelict, like in his ski mask.
He's like, we need to go to Spirit Halloween, see if they've
got a Lightning McQueen or a full made or a costume that'll

(14:36):
that'll distract people. That'll distract the, you know,
it's like an Andy. Like, and this clip is
inflatable cookie monster, inflatable Penguin.
There's a Winnie the Pooh bear here like and and for Andy and
it's very serious. Like I'm I'm a counter extremism
analyst voices just like they'rehardly organized.

(14:59):
They have purchased their own animal costumes.
Cash Patel, please. It is not Cookie Monster, it is
John Wayne Gacy under that suit.It's it is so stupid, dude is so
dumb, but it's like it's short circuiting their brains.

(15:22):
I'm just going to run through some other really dumb shit that
they said because it's importantbecause this thing could surface
later, right? And then you could wind up
having to deal with it. We could have to have to sort
through this crappy information.Let's just quickly just say Jack
Bezobic said he was doing some reporting on Antifa which to to
President Trump and his stupid round table.

(15:42):
And then he says with a straightface, oh, you know, this started
in Weimar Germany. And it's like, oh, OK, thanks,
buddy. I appreciate that.
I just wonder what else might have been happening at that
time. Mr. President, thank you so much
for having us here today and holding this this round table.

(16:02):
Antifa is real. Antifa has been around in
various iterations for almost 100 years, in some instances
going back to the Weimar Republic in Germany.
I just wonder. And that's, and that's bad.
It's supposed to be bad, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So other things he said quickly is he he was rattling off like

(16:26):
the Antifa terrorist. He said Luigi Mangione, which
that's a stretch. The guy had like a whole bunch
of reactionary stuff in his pastand and whatever true, he has
been embraced by some people on the online left that you that
you can't deny, but also the idea that he's Antifa.
I'm sure Luigi Mangione would beconfused by that depiction.
Then he talked about that guy Crooks who is out in

(16:48):
Pennsylvania who attempted to shoot Trump.
We still don't know that guys motivation.
I want to stress that a million times.
We have no idea if he himself was a right wing guy or a griper
or whatever he might have been. We don't know.
We have no idea what he went we.Have no idea.
There's almost like no information.
His parents were big time Trump supporters.
So it could have been, you know,I'm not even going to speculate,

(17:11):
but I just want to just throw one possible scenario.
Maybe he's mad at his parents orsomething.
I don't know. But one thing.
But we have no reason to believebased upon his associations that
he was in Tifa or called himselfAntifa.
And then there's been this latest thing with the, you know,
DOJ cheering this indictment, Jared.
Yeah, yeah. So the DOJ got a indictment

(17:31):
against two suspects that they say are alleged Antifa members.
Then they were part of a armed attack on a ICE facility in
Texas on July 4th. I think a lot of people have
forgotten about this one, but itwas actually pretty wild.
There was like a small group of people that ambushed agents at

(17:55):
this ICE facility. They had guns, they opened fire.
And I don't, I, I don't know that they like killed anyone or
anything. But but the DOJ is, is now
charging two of the people they're accusing of being
involved in that. You know, they still have to go
to trial and prove everything, of course.
But, you know, this is kind of the first thing since, you know,

(18:19):
Trump put out his executive order and and told FBIDOJ
whatever to try to prosecute Antifa as a domestic terrorist
organization. This is the first indictment
since then that seems to be trying to fulfill that.
And the indictments kind of of weird.

(18:40):
They attacked a federal facilityin a way that was organized,
according to this indictment, like premeditated and planned
and stuff. This probably would have got a
tear like a terrorism enhancement on these charges
anyway. So it's, you know, they're kind
of just like waxing poetic in the indictment, but I don't know

(19:03):
that like I'm not a lawyer or a prosecutor or whatever, but I
don't know that like it's actually going to come up in
trial, right. I, I mean, I don't know how, how
much the court to justify those terrorism enhancements.
We'll need them to prove that Antifa, the way they describe it
exists or that they were membersof Antifa or whatever.

(19:25):
They're just going to have to prove that they had a political
motivation and then attacked, you know, a target that that
would qualify for the enhancement.
You know, So I, it's, it's very much for show.
It's concerning, you know, certainly, but also if you're
going to make a case that like some kind of coordinated left

(19:49):
wing attack, you know, thing happened, this is probably about
like the closest thing to a solid case they might have just
in terms of like making the argument because according to
the indictment, it was premeditated.
It was organized. It was a plan like it, you know,
And if all of that's true, that is much more severe than Antifa,

(20:12):
Barney the Dinosaur, you know, it like like this is.
Well, it seems to me, and pleasecorrect me, you know, having
looked at this, I feel like you're, you're, you're stronger
on this type of stuff. But it seems to me like they've
set up this this demand in the public for something and this
they're just scrambling and thisis kind of like what they could

(20:33):
come up with. Yeah, they haven't like gone out
and got anybody. They're they're like went back
to a case that they were going to prosecute anyway.
And then they're like, hey, add this paragraph in the
indictment. Yeah, we can do.
If we do this, it can look like we're really doing something
about Antifa, because I don't want to dismiss the possibility
that they're going to go after antifa in like a horrible way

(20:56):
and whatever. I don't want to write it off,
But I've, I have, you know, because it would be very bad for
them to just randomly, you know,start picking off leftist,
whatever. I know that's the, the, the most
extreme fear people have. But I mean, if I were a betting,
if I were betting on this and not just thinking with emotion
about it, I would bet that they would do almost Jack shit.

(21:19):
And and just because that's the way the trumpet, I mean, they
are really based on rhetoric andpropaganda.
Most of the horror gets doled out against immigrants because
that's where Stephen Miller is most.
So I, I don't know, but it does seem like this particular, you
know, charge of this, whatever that they're, that they're
adding on to this case seems to me like, like them trying to

(21:40):
figure out a way they can justify the rhetoric they've
been using. Yeah, and immigrants are going
to get it hit a lot harder, right, just because they're more
vulnerable, they're easier targets for the administration
to pick off and. Also, there's laws on the books
that they can use to justify or to try to justify.
Even if they're using, they are adding many legal measures onto

(22:04):
the way they treat immigrants. There are some laws that you
know, the, the Cretans like Tom Holman can can point to and say
like, well, I'm doing this for that, etcetera.
Yeah, yeah. And I think you, you're kind of
starting to see some early tellsthat this like promise to go get
Antifa is probably going to be abit trickier for them than they

(22:26):
envisioned it. Because something that also
happened after that White House roundtable is, you know, the
ante nose of the world and what not.
You know, it shortly after beinglike, well, actually, we they're
being treated as a domestic terrorist organization, but they
should be treated as a foreign terrorist organization.

(22:47):
Because if they can get that designation, if they can pull
something out of their ass to try to justify that, well,
suddenly, you know, Constitution, constitutional
protection, civil liberties, allthat, that doesn't mean shit
anymore. You can spy on them, you can
intervene, you can surveil them like your, your rights go out

(23:09):
the fucking window if, if it's foreign terrorist organization
designation. But I think they're going to
have a insane struggle to even remotely justify that.
And and the people that are listening to and we know that
they're listening to these influencers because they invited
him to a public round table in front of everybody have no idea

(23:31):
what's going on or are making things up wholesale.
Our friend Darryl Lamont Jenkins, Jared, who runs. 1.
One people's project and you know, recently announced on X
that he was the leader of Antifalike that the like.
The main leader. Right.
You know, as if, as if this werelike, as if he were like the,

(23:54):
you know, the the figurehead of a like of, of some kind of
legitimate organization. And I find that very, very funny
knowing what I know about Darrell's life, how he goes
about his life. I mean, the guy is, you know,
volunteers his time basically totry to ID white supremacists and
sort of pieces together their associations.

(24:17):
This is like his calling. He does it almost completely in
a volunteer way and gets donations wherever he can.
That's my knowledge of Daryl andand I know him to be a very warm
individual. I would also add Jared, You
know, something distinguishes Daryl from other Antifa that
that Andy Noah mentions is he's a black man.

(24:39):
So that you know, you know, probably a diversity in the
issue in in the movement maybe, but they're not they're not
talking black guys who are very prominent and Daryl just happens
to be 1. So he's the one who got singled
out by Andy Noe? Yeah, Terrell is is like a an OG

(25:00):
and anti fascism isn't like a pure sense.
And yeah, like you said, Mike, Imean he has done this one
people's project has has been around since I mean long before
anybody started talking about antifa, you know, and the public
one people's project. It's been around the fucking

(25:22):
block, dude. And like, I, I've like talked to
Daryl. I've talked to other people who
like volunteer time with one people's project.
And they have deep lore. You know, it's just like, well,
wouldn't you like to know that like James O'Keefe showed up at
this white supremacist event in 2004 and it's just like, what

(25:42):
are what, how did you get this? And it's like, oh, well, we were
there. So it's like, this is like
Antifa before it was Antifa, right?
It was just, it's a documentation project.
It's a research project, but it's awesome and it's great.
But it is also very funny to think that Darryl Lamont Jenkins
is, is somehow this like mastermind of a criminal

(26:03):
enterprise of, of Antifa. You know Mike and I know Darryl,
so I just called him up real quick.
Hey, what's up y'all? This is DOJ, you know, the Lord
and master of everything that's Antifa, apparently.
And I just wanted to hit you up just to let you know I'm I'm

(26:26):
safe. I'm in an undisclosed location
in New Brunswick, NJ, and all isgood, All is good.
And I think the important thing to remember about all of this is
that it's a plus publicity stuntfor these characters.
At some point, it's one that canget all of us hurt, and we have

(26:51):
to bear that in mind and respondaccordingly.
But bottom line is they don't have a lot of teeth in what it
is they're doing. And if we do not let them know
that we recognize that and we'lldo something about it, they will
continue to do what they do. Andy knows it's not going.

(27:14):
To hurt anybody. If we don't let him, none of
those characters that were in the round table who are two of
which worked with Richard. Spencer and look where he's at
today. I mean I'm bottom line is we got
to stop being afraid. We got to stop being afraid

(27:36):
because that's what gives him strength.
So now I'm just going to take off and I'm just make sure that
all my. People will say take care y'all.
Before we leave this topic and move on to the to the great
interview we have planned for today, I want to just highlight

(27:58):
this video that the White House put out that is so insane.
It is Jared. It is the most insane thing.
They to me, I know they put out a lot of crazy stuff that like
AI generated pictures mocking immigrants and all this stuff.
But to me, I found this just on a level of insanity that was

(28:18):
really beyond my comprehension. That's saying something because
I've become pretty ignored to this administration.
Yeah, so after this round table,the influencers they brought in,
they lined them all up. And despite these people being
like, I'm a journalist, I'm a real journalist and I'm being
attacked and the Antifa says that I'm ugly and that's a
national security threat. They, they all participated in

(28:43):
like a sizzle reel about antifa that the White House put out.
And this is just so fucking funny.
I think, I think we have to playit.
Antifa beats journalist. Antifa attacks our police
stations, they attack our courthouses, they docks, our law
enforcement officers. No more.

(29:06):
They are a terrorist group and we are coming after them.
We are here at the White House today to unmask Antifa, to
follow the money all the way to the top.
If you want to get to the bottomof who is fomenting this chaos
and violence in our country, youmust follow the money.
I was a mainstream reporter in Seattle for 10 years before I
quit mainstream media in part due to its refusal to

(29:28):
acknowledge the dangers of Antifa and radical left wing.
In. Part in part.
I wonder what the other parts were.
Like everybody hated me. I mean, I was insufferable, OK?
Yeah, OK, whatever. Part of the problem that we have
is that a lot of people refuse to believe that Antifa is real,
is just a made-up thing. But I've seen.
That OK sorry these people like every other line is like trust

(29:53):
me bro like this is real this islike you know what I mean like
I. Feel like that one gives it away
where it's like, OK, we we had an issue.
Everyone thinks we're full of shit.
Yeah, this is like, I'm just like, yo, the boogeyman is under
my bed. I only suddenly stop it, Dad,
stop it, stop it. The boogeyman is under my bed.

(30:14):
It really. He's not it.
And then you look under the bed and he's like, he must have
moved to the closet. I don't know what to tell you,
man. Seen them?
They are real, they are dangerous and they are violent.
They are organized, systemic International Criminal
enterprise. And what the FBI is going to do
is trace the money, follow the funds, and find every single
person that was involved in funding the riots and the

(30:36):
violent acts of criminality thatthey're perpetrating on our
street. I've watched it.
You can. You can hear Cash like scrolling
rapidly through FanDuel as he's saying that.
And like his Tinder, like things.
He's like, trust me, we're goingto do something.
He's like, he's like the fuck Jaguars game.
That's a good spread. Like, yes, I'm free on Thursday.

(30:58):
Like, yeah, we're going to totally do something about
these. Make believe like people that
live under your bed. Yeah, TIFA brutally beat, harass
and threaten Americans in the street, but all of that ends
with the Trump administration. I was brutally attacked and
almost killed by Antifa in the streets of Seattle.
All of my colleagues have been attacked.
I can't think of a single one who hasn't.
Violence colleagues, these are influencers.

(31:24):
What the fuck do you mean? Colleagues.
Yeah, these guys. I I also want to point out,
Jared, this is starting to take the tone of like the although
the music feels like a Paul Verhoeven film, you know what I
mean? It, it, it, it also it, it the,
IT is undercut heavily by the fact that this is like the intro
to a dating show or something where it's sort of like, it's

(31:46):
like, you know, it's like, I'm Jim, I'm a farmer.
I live in Nebraska. Like I'm out there looking for
the love of my life. And like, you know, they just
like and. It's against journalists and
police officers in our streets can't stand.
Just days ago I was in the Portland jailhouse and now I'm
in the White House. There you go, dude.

(32:07):
This is Big Brother. Dude, this.
This is yeah, this is exactly like that.
I think you should leave sketch where Patti Harrison is.
Like, I got sewn into the the, the pants of the big Charlie
Brown, and now I'm ready to spend that money.
I love drinking wine. I'm scared about how much I need
wine. I can't even watch a movie

(32:29):
anymore without a big. Pour of wine and popcorn.
This administration is built different.
And Antifa's days were numbered.And I want to thank President
Donald Trump for designating Antifa a terrorist organization.
And I'm looking forward to the FBI and the DOJ hunting down
these people like the terroriststhat they are.
All I got to say, it's a bad dayto be Antifa and Antifa's.

(32:49):
That's that was the only thing from that guy they put in the
clip that's he's like, he's like, that's all he's like,
that's all I got to say. That's cool because at least,
you know, at least he's just leaning into the completely fake
WWE nature of their politics, right?
Because he's like, this is a tough day for Antifa.
You're going down like that is much to me.
Much more on the that's what I would do if you put me in.

(33:12):
You want me to be like a complete scoundrel influencer or
just makes shit up all the time.I'd be like Antifa, like
Boogeyman under my bed. Your days are numbered.
We're coming for you. Dad is coming.
He's getting the vacuum. As days of using violence and
intimidation against their political opposition are over
and I've continued to report on them over the years despite.

(33:33):
The threats I've continued to report.
I've continued to aggregate the clips posted by other people
despite the threats. No Cookie Monster costume will
get in the way of my reporting, which is conducted from another
continent. Violence that's happened because
I owe. A thank you to this country, the
United States, for settling my parents who were victims of

(33:55):
communism in Vietnam. One month ago, Charlie Kirk was
murdered by a violent leftist. We all saw it, and we all saw
thousands of leftists celebratedand TIFA symbols were found on
the bullet casings of the gun used to shoot and kill my
friend. The bullet casings of the gun.

(34:17):
He didn't know. He doesn't.
Know he doesn't know also he doesn't he's.
Flexing like it's not true. Flexing like in the mirror.
He's like antifa numbers. Stop calling me Agent Pozo and
making fun of my fucking piss tests.
What's what's, what's your favorite part of a gun?
Mine's the bullet chasing part of the gun.

(34:38):
We won't take it anymore. President Trump is not going to
stand for it. And I'm so grateful that we have
a leader in the White House thatunderstands how we need to fight
these sophisticated networks andhow we need to take these
terrorists out. I've been attacked by antifa
docs, by antifa, harassed by antifa.
But we're not standing down. We're now coming.

(34:58):
Fuck yeah, let's go. Honestly, I'm I'm pumped up.
Let's get them. Who are they?
All right? Who are, Who are now?
We know, like they're definitelyreal.
Who are they? Where are we going?
Where, where? Where are we going now?
I can't believe like I'm just picturing in their heads like
the this average American who's watching this video montage and

(35:20):
there's just some random ass person they've never seen before
who's just like, I've been doxedby antifa.
I've been harassed by Antifa. And there's just like, yeah, we
have to kill these people. Like I, I, I, I mean this
argument is just failing so bad.Yeah, it's it, but but that but
but I think, you know, to to endit and move on to like something

(35:45):
that's genuinely a threat. I would like to point out that
you're in trouble when you have to repeatedly be like, trust me
bro, this is real. Yeah, we said it before, but
I'll say it again. If you if you keep the saying
you are giving away the game, you know it's not real.
Yeah, Bigfoot is real. I've seen him shut up.

(36:08):
And thank you. Thank you, Mr. President, for
taking my concerns so seriously,even though during that round
table he was like nodding off. Yeah.
And and he's like your days. Are numbered and Trump.
Do you know which ones Andy know?
And then Andy raises his hand, and you can see what happens in
Trump's head. He's like, like, you know, I

(36:28):
thought that was you because you're Asian.
Yeah. So.
That's about to say. He's like, he's like, oh, that
would make sense that you're Asian.
Yes. Yeah.
You were saying about Cookie Monster.
And he starts to fall asleep again.
Yeah. Anyway, real shit, Real shit
here, Jared. So yeah, we had a listener
request that we talk about The Turner Diaries.

(36:51):
And I think it's important that we do it Like, you know, every
time we do a podcast, we're sortof like building foundation for
a future podcast and to talk andrefer back to.
I don't know how many times we've referred back to, you
know, who the hell is episodes that we've done to try to just,
you know, provide extra context,and Turner Diaries is something
that's going to keep coming up. Yeah.

(37:13):
So we're going to just briefly go through the history of the
Turner Diaries, what it is, who wrote it, and then we're going
to talk to the son of the man who wrote it.
Our main source here for the background on a Turner Diaries,
I have to shout it out, is a paper that was written by JM
Berger, who is on one of our early episodes after the reboot,

(37:36):
one of the preeminent scholars of extremism in the 21st
century. A lot of the details in this
sort of run through are coming from his work.
I'm going to put a link to it inthe description if you want to
read it yourself. So The Turner Diaries was
published in 1978, and since then more than 200 people have

(37:57):
died in hate crimes and terror attacks committed by people who
have been inspired by the book. The most high profile example of
this was the Oklahoma City bombing in 1995, wherein Timothy
McVeigh bombed a federal building and killed 168.
People, yeah, before we get intothe sort of, you know, some some

(38:20):
details about the plot of the book, I just want to highlight
something that also comes up in the interview.
What happened in Oklahoma City actually mirrors something that
happens literally in the book, Right Jared?
Yeah, I, I mean, the influence is very clear in trial.
You know, established witnesses said that Timothy McVeigh was
obsessed with this book, and it was the first piece of evidence

(38:44):
that prosecutors introduced at his trial.
And I think the Oklahoma City bombing is kind of how people
found out about the book, and it's sold a ton of extra copies
afterward. So The Turner Diaries was
written that author. It was published under the name
was Andrew McDonald, which was apen name for William Luther

(39:05):
Pierce. William Luther Pierce was a very
influential neo Nazi white supremacist movement leader who
ran a group called a National Alliance.
He was born in Atlanta in 1933. He studied physics in college,
went on to work to the Jet Propulsion Laboratory in

(39:28):
Pasadena focused on space exploration.
He was a exceptionally bright person, just a very smart mind,
quick mind. But then the 60s came along, and
in this period of American history, what was happening, you
had the civil rights movement atthe forefront.

(39:49):
And it was around that time thatthis guy who was initially, you
know, open to the idea of equal rights for black people, really
started to take a racist bet andbelieve that the Jews were
forcing racial integration. In 1963, William Luther Pierce

(40:11):
saw a clip of protesters at a speech hosted by George Lincoln
Rockwell, who was the founder ofthe American Nazi Party.
That was a pretty small organization that really
specialized in, you know, publicity stunts and propaganda.
They had newsletters and they would parade around just wearing

(40:32):
swastikas, full Nazi regalia. In 1965, Pierce started, you
know, he moved and and started, you know, participating in the
American Nazi Party and would spend time reading racist books.
Just just crazy stuff. He's working government jobs and

(40:54):
towards the end of the Sixties, 1967, George Lincoln Rockwell
was assassinated by a member of his own group.
I've actually been to the spot where he died.
I didn't know that. Yeah, Speaking of one people's
project, I was hanging out with somebody from there and she was
like, oh, you know, George Lincoln Rockwell was shot like
three or four blocks from here. So we walked over there and went

(41:16):
to the laundromat where he was killed.
Wow, that's crazy. It's kind of surreal.
It's still a laundromat, by the way.
So William Luther Peers, he becomes a top leader of the
American Nazi Party, renames it to National Socialist White
People's Party. There's a ton of infighting
underway because William Luther Peers is like, well, we have to

(41:39):
like, cool it with the swastikas, right?
We can't be like Nazis, Nazis, right?
But we could still kind of do the same thing under a different
name, under a different, you know, right.
It's the National Socialist White People's Party.
It's, it's not much softer, but a little softer.
He ends up falling out with members of the group and in 1974

(42:03):
launches his own organization, the National Alliance.
I just want to interject, National Alliance heavily
influential on all the stuff that would be to come on the
radical right. I mean, they're really, really
foundational group. So the next year, 1975, William

(42:24):
Luther Pierce begins circulatinglike a magazine, newspaper type
thing from National Alliance called Attack.
And in Attack is where the Turner Diaries sort of started
to come into existence. He published them initially as
chapters sort of dispatches froma future historian and he did

(42:47):
one per issue for about 3 1/2 years.
In 1978, the installments were getting popular and he compiled
them into a book. Pierce kept leading the National
Alliance until he died in 2002. I just want to say that that
magazine attack with an exclamation point.

(43:09):
It's really sad that it got wasted on a white supremacist
group because it would be a really great punk scene, you
know, name or anything else, butit is what it is, so.
That's a little bit about William Luther Pierce.
Let's talk quickly about what The Turner Diaries is actually
about. You've read The Turner Diaries,
right? I have if you're if you're

(43:32):
looking for my hesitation just because it's it's maybe the
worst fucking book I've ever read in my entire.
Well, Andy knows antifa is pretty bad actually, but this is
like just in terms of a literarylike experience.
It is just horrible and grading and you you intimated this, but
Pierce is like a really smart guy.

(43:53):
I mean, he's a very accomplishedphysicist and it shows that
writing is a different thing. It's not necessarily about your
your intellect and anything likethat.
There's a lot of finesse and lovemaking and writing to make
the prose, you know, really pleasurable, enjoyable, engage,
engaging your ability to, you know, to sort of introduce

(44:15):
symbols, etcetera. This is the most ham fisted
insufferable prose I've ever read, and I think that the
reason why people are attracted to it on the radical right is
simply because it just creates enemies they don't like and then
punishes them with the violence.And that is really the repeated
theme of Turner Diaries the in terms of the ham fisted

(44:38):
symbolism. There's something called the the
Cohen act, if I recall correctly, Jared, which which is
like an act that's where sort ofpeople were, you know, the
government was taking guns away from people that sort of helped
spur this revolution. And and you know, like so subtle
the Cohen act, right? Like, I mean, they're Jews.

(45:00):
Got it. Yeah.
I mean, that's like one of many examples of like really just LED
and stupid writing in it. Yeah, yeah.
It's it's written in the style of like dystopian fiction and
narrated by Earl Turner, which is where The Turner Diaries
drives its name. Earl Turner is a fictional

(45:24):
historian from the future looking back on the quote UN
quote great revolution. Like you said it, it revolves
around like, the mass ban and confiscation of guns.
And the government is run by a Jewish conspiracy that, you
know, uplifts and puts people ofcolor into leadership positions.

(45:48):
It's called the system. The economy is collapsing.
I mean, the country is just degrading.
And the protagonist is a group called the organization, which
Earl Turner was a member of. They try revolution.
It fails. Then they go back to the drawing
board. They try to infiltrate police in
the government. They organize in smaller cells.

(46:11):
This is what he essentially fantasized.
National Alliance would be right.
I mean, exactly, yeah, the organization very clearly is
like his fantasy of National Alliance.
Right. And, and, and what the
government does is what his fantasy of is what the
government would do to wake up the people who are not really
signing up to National Alliance,which is the the extreme

(46:34):
majority of every white person in the world who just didn't
care. Yeah, So like as this, you know,
this fictional historical recounting of the organization,
you know, this starts to be where the the real inspiration
for white supremacist terror comes from because William

(46:54):
Luther appears essentially lays out a blueprint for how he
thinks this should be done. He talks about how these, the
cells of white supremacist terrorists, are organized in
detailed ways. He's talking about weapons, how
to communicate, how to make explosives, strategies, tactics,
the kind of thing that would inspire attackers later on.

(47:17):
And as the book progresses, the organization gets more and more
extreme in their violence. They're killing political
leaders, starting with black people, and then killing white
collaborators, they call them. They bomb an FBI building using
a car bomb, which is a, you know, bears some pretty striking

(47:38):
similarities to Timothy Mcveigh's attack on the federal
building and. Timothy McVeigh also scouted the
possibility of bombing an SPLC building.
Really. Yeah, we're told that one went
there. They start bombing media
organizations like the Washington Post.
They target a crowd that's hearing the president speak.

(47:59):
They take down an Israel bound airplane, they start attacking
financial institutions, criticalinfrastructure, they are
carrying out a full scale ethniccleansing campaign, and
everything builds up to the day of the rope.
Right and and and people, this is a big one, just like people
should. You've seen that before and

(48:19):
you'll see like people say, oh, day of the rope, you know,
you'll see that in like kind of white supremacist propaganda or
alluded to on these more terroristic platforms like
you're, you know, that are hosted by Telegram or Gap.
Yeah, yeah, it's if you see day of the rope, that's a Turner
Dies Diaries reference. And what the day of the rope is,

(48:40):
is when all the white quote UN quote race traitors would be
lynched in mass in public, just just anybody they thought
betrayed the white race would bekilled.
And then like towards the end ofit, they steal and start
detonating nuclear nuclear bombs, launches a global war and

(49:02):
the organization seizes control of America and starts killing
all nine non white people on theplanet.
So it is just a pure genocidal fantasy.
And that's what the Turner Diaries is.
You know, William Luther Pierce would try to publish a second
novel called Hunter that wasn't as popular.

(49:24):
National Alliance also publishedsomething called Serpent's Walk.
A lot of people think that Pierce probably wrote that too.
But The Turner Diaries has sold hundreds of thousands of copies.
And that's just in print online.You go on white supremacist
circles. It's not hard to find PDFs of
this book floating around getting passed back and forth

(49:44):
because the the story sort of hinged on this plot point of
like the revolution started whenthey started taking people's
guns away. Turner Diaries got some
circulation at gun shows, that sort of thing.
From what I've read that people suspect that might be how
Timothy McVeigh kind of picked up on it because Timothy
McVeigh. I recall, I recall.

(50:06):
Big gun nut but yeah it's I meanit got massively popular,
continues to influence stuff today and it is absolute drivel.
It is miserable to read. It's also, I mean, imagine
centering your story that the hero journey around somebody
just kills a lot of people. I mean, that's really, you know,

(50:27):
typically not how it's done. In posting through it now we
have Kelvin Pierce, who is William Luther Pierce's son.
In 2020, he published the book Sins of My Father Growing up

(50:48):
with America's most dangerous white supremacist.
Kelvin, just to start it. It wasn't until later in your
life that you really seem to to start speaking publicly about
your experience growing up as the son of one of the most
influential neo Nazis in, you know, American extremist

(51:10):
history. And I think maybe that would be
a good place to start. What changed what?
What made you you know, what compelled you to start talking
about that experience? Well, I mean, at first I didn't
talk to anybody about my experience for the longest time
because I didn't want to have any association.
I didn't want anybody to know who my father was and what my

(51:31):
association was. But eventually, in my later 20s,
early 30s, I started telling some personal friends about my
father. And I was universally met with
the reaction, like, oh, my God, that's unbelievable.
And you should write a book. And I always just blew that off.
But what happened is, you know, I left home at age 18, you know,

(51:56):
a profoundly damaged person due to the abuse of my father.
And I was just so damaged and dealing with those feelings that
I didn't really have the capacity to articulate or even
think about the possibility of helping other people.
That just wasn't part of my mindset back then.

(52:16):
But you know, after I started myfoundation or giving back to
orphans in Eastern Europe, I joined the Rotary Club, Rotary
International. And as part of that, I was asked
to be president of our local club for a year, which meant I
had to get up and publicly run that meeting every single week

(52:39):
for a year. And before that started, I was
terrified of public speaking. But after doing that for a year,
I became comfortable speaking infront of people.
And another member of my club knew my story and he felt like
that it would be powerful for meto address my club as a guest

(53:00):
speaker because we would have a guest speaker every week and
just tell my story. And I was, I was terrified to do
that. But I, you know, I put together
some notes and I spoke for about25 minutes, and I was stunned by
the reaction that I received. I mean, absolutely stunned.
There were people in the audience crying.
There were people who were like,I had no idea you ever had any,

(53:24):
you know, part of your life thatwas like this.
And they were people of color inthe audience.
They came up to me afterwards and said, this is one of the
most powerful stories I've ever heard.
And it was very healing for me. And that's when I decided, you
know what? And maybe I should just start
telling other people. If it really did help somebody,

(53:45):
then it's worthwhile. And that's when I started public
speaking about my father. I'm just curious, like how old
you were when you became familiar not only with the
Turner Diaries, but or just yourfather's political activism in
National Alliance or whatever. Like what?
What was it like? How old were you?
Was it going on in the background or were you told

(54:06):
about it directly? Because as kids, you know, you
could be like, oblivious to thatkind of stuff because it's just
that's home. That's normal.
Yeah, it is. It was what I thought was
normal. But I certainly wasn't oblivious
because, you know, my father, the things that he would say,
the reactions that he would haveif he saw a black person on TV,

(54:28):
you know, he would make awful sounds.
He would say really derogatory things about black people, about
Jewish people. He was very physically,
emotionally, psychologically abusive of me.
But you know, when I was probably 7 years old, I was
taken to a picnic with the American Nazi Party because my

(54:51):
father was a member at that time.
And they hung a huge swastika flag from the trees in the park
when they were doing the picnic.And I remember seeing the police
come and make them take that swastika flag down.
And, you know, my dad sometimes took me to his office, you know,
where the American Nazi Party was or after Rockwell was

(55:12):
killed. And then he formed his own hate
group, the National Alliance. So I was very aware of it,
probably from the time I was about six or seven years old.
As you got older, I know that eventually your father would,
you know, leave you and your mother and and kind of go off on
his own. But I'm curious, you know, how

(55:37):
much of an impression growing upin that environment had on you
and sort of when things started to change, like, you know,
again, kids, I mean, they're just very impressionable.
And, you know, was there ever a point in time where you, you

(55:57):
know, may have pantomimed or, ormirrored some of your father's
beliefs? Probably.
I would be surprised just because he was such an extreme
person if anybody mirrored him 100%.
But like, how did that influenceyou growing up?
And then was there a point whereyou realize that that something
was off and and you didn't believe this stuff?

(56:21):
I mean, I was profoundly influenced by my father as I was
growing up. Almost all the time, I was just
thinking about him because he had this unreal hold over me.
And he was, you know, very abusive.
But at the same time, I wanted his approval.
I wanted his acceptance. And I never got that.

(56:43):
And so, you know, he taught me about, you know, different races
and he taught me about how he believed that whites were
superior, that all non whites were inferior and some of them
even considered subhuman. And then he also taught me very
diligently about what he called the Jewish scheme, about how

(57:05):
their main mission in life was to bring down the white race,
you know, by using mass media tomake white people complacent
about racial issues, to encourage the mixing of whites
with non whites, things like that.
So he taught me all of that. And because I was so mentally

(57:25):
profoundly damaged by the abuse,I believed everything that he
taught me. I believe that that the Jews and
non whites were responsible for all the ills of our society.
And I left home when I first went to college at age 18,
holding those beliefs tight. And, you know, when I left home,
I really wasn't consciously aware of the fact that I had

(57:47):
been abused or that everything that happened wasn't just
normal. I did not realize it until I
went out into the real world that what happened was not
normal by any means. So when did you realize it?
Well, I went to a very large university in Virginia, Virginia

(58:08):
Tech, and I started meeting people from all over the world,
and my first roommate there was a person of color.
I actually grew to really like this guy and to admire him.
He was very liberal, very compassionate about other
people. He spent a year in the Peace
Corps before he came to become astudent.
And he taught me a lot about hiswork and about empathy for

(58:29):
others. And, you know, it took a long
time, but those were the very first seeds that were being
planted in my mind that, you know what, maybe my dad was
wrong because certainly this roommate was nothing like what
my describe not, you know, he described non whites to be he
was very intelligent, very nice,very, you know, so that was the

(58:52):
first step that I think really started me thinking about it,
but it took years. It took years for me to, you
know, gradually let, let go of those police.
For people who don't know much about your father, I mean, he
was not, he's not just some, youknow, silly guy who happened to

(59:13):
be extremely racist. And so, but he's a physicist.
I mean, he was a very smart guy.And, you know, and in the, in
terms of the general population,I mean, he was, he was fairly
accomplished, at least in that field.
I mean, compared to the average person, I struggle with physics.
I'm just curious, like what you think from what you saw him

(59:35):
what, what really drove him to be the person that he was
because he he chose to emphasize, you know, radical
right stuff much more than anything else in his life.
I'm just curious if you saw whatmotive, what might have
motivated him to to be like thatrather than to be something
else, because he certainly had the potential to be something

(59:57):
else. He certainly did.
I mean, he literally had a genius level IQ and was, you
know, you know, a doctorate in physics.
He had a problem, though, with authority.
And like when he was getting hisadvanced degree at Caltech in
physics, he was also working at the Jet Propulsion Laboratory.
And he was very frustrated because he felt like that all

(01:00:20):
his Co workers were way below him in their intellectual
abilities and it frustrated him.And so he quit that job.
And then when he got his doctorate in physics from the
University of Colorado, my mom wanted him to get a job in
industry because he could have commanded a really nice salary,
but he refused because he didn'twant people telling him what to

(01:00:41):
do. So he took a job as a professor
at Oregon State University. And it was at Oregon State
University where he changed. And I think two things were
happening, I think #1 is becauseof his problem with authority
and because of his not willing to just be a normal guy and work

(01:01:02):
and support a family. And he, he, you know, he read a
lot of very sophisticated stuff,like you read Nietzsche.
And he really aspired to the idea of the Uber Mensch, you
know, the Superman. And I think he had a like this
fantastical vision of himself possibly being an Uber Mensch.

(01:01:22):
And but he was also exposed to things at Oregon State
University, which is a very liberal campus.
At the same time, you know, the civil rights movement was going
on. The Vietnam War was going on.
He witnessed interracial couplesfor the first time on campus.
And then he also started readinga lot about European history,
the Wolshevik revolution. He also unfortunately, picked up

(01:01:46):
and read a copy of Mein Kampf. And that's when his beliefs
started changing. And that's when he decided that
he didn't want to be a family man, he didn't want to be a
father. He wanted to be the Ubermensch
and he wanted to save the white race.
And then he decided then that was he was going to devote the
rest of his life to doing that. So your father's sort of legacy

(01:02:09):
on white supremacist terrorism, violence kind of comes in the
form of what we're talking about, which is the Turner
Diaries. I, I'm just curious, have you,
have you read the Turner Diaries?
Do you have any, any, any sort of experience or thoughts about
that book? Because it kind of became what

(01:02:32):
would outlast him. And, you know, there was, I
mean, there was a point where the FBI, you know, was quoted in
some publication calling it the Bible for white supremacist
terrorists, right? I'm just curious if you had any
experience with that book itself.

(01:02:53):
Yeah, I have read the book. I did not read it until way,
way, way after it was published.I did not want to read it, but
after I just started doing my public speaking and people
started asking me about it, I did read the book.
I knew what the book was all about, and I knew, you know,
what was coming out of my father's mind when he was
writing the book. I knew that in my heart that

(01:03:16):
what he wrote in that book and acouple of other books that he
wrote, that those were really direct reflections of the
fantasies that he had about actions that he wished he could
carry out himself. When the Oklahoma City bombing
took place in in in the 90s and McVeigh became a a sort of a

(01:03:39):
household name and people attributed it immediately to the
Turner Diaries. For people who aren't familiar,
there's like a scene that's likeexactly the same as what
happened. Basically, Am I?
Am I call correctly? Even the the bomb that McVeigh
built is right. You know, similar to a device
described in the book, right? Yes, that is correct.

(01:04:01):
How old were you and how were you able to make those
connections? Like what?
What were you thinking at the time that it happened?
So I was 35 when that bombing happened, and yes, I was able to
make those connections. And I also knew that this was
going to be a huge impact on my dad and his organization

(01:04:25):
because, you know, the whole time with the National Alliance,
he was barely making it. It was just barely limping
along. And you know, at at the most,
sometimes he would have no more than like 1500, you know, paid
members paying dues, you know, throughout the entire world.

(01:04:46):
And it, you know, he just was barely making it.
He was, you know, practically starving and working everyday,
writing and writing and writing and not feeling like he was
really making a difference or really getting through.
But the Turner Dyers changed allof that.
And, you know, when he first wrote the Turner Dyers, he did

(01:05:07):
not intend to write it as a book.
He was just writing a diary entry for each publication of
his attack, a magazine that he would publish every month and
send out to all his subscribers.But it became so wildly popular
he decided to put all those together into a book.
And yes, indeed, it is considered the Bible of the

(01:05:29):
racist right right now. So growing up around your
father, you were exposed to the white supremacist movement on a
much deeper level than most people, you know, a, a kind of
level that, you know, Mike and Ias reporters many years after

(01:05:50):
the fact or even historians looking through, you know,
correspondence and stuff, just just didn't have it.
And I'm curious if you think it like, is there anything that
stands out to you about how those movements worked or how
they functioned that you think the public might just not
understand well or or even have misconceptions about?

(01:06:13):
I mean, I certainly think so. But there's been such a huge
change in the movement, if that's what you would call it,
from the time when my dad, you know, was in his infancy of the
National Alliance or the American Nazi Party up to now.
The early on, basically, you know, I was exposed to his group

(01:06:35):
and to the people in that group,and almost exclusively, they
were all just a bunch of losers.You know, these were like poorly
educated, you know, grievance nursing white men who had
nothing better to do than to dress up like stormtroopers and
go out and act like thugs in public.

(01:06:56):
They didn't really have a life or any.
And there were a few intellectuals like my dad and a
few of his friends who were like, behind the scenes writing
the words and, you know, doing the publications and trying to
raise the money and trying to get the the word out.
But most of the people, most of the supporters were disaffected

(01:07:17):
people who you know, in my opinion, were not mentally well.
Yeah, I on that front, you know,I have seen the type of people
that you're trying you're talking about.
I've been covering the radical right for a long time.
And then there's just like the kind of the sort of, you know,
like hateful oaf archetype just who will just do whatever, you

(01:07:40):
know, these hate groups like just just like the foot soldier
type guy. And then somebody who is just
kind of like you said, mentally need in need of help, right, or
somebody who maybe would be better off just getting getting
some treatment somewhere or whatever.
Did did your father, I mean, didyou did you ever witness

(01:08:02):
anything where your father wouldbe frustrated at all with the
type of people he was recruiting?
Obviously you said he has his friends who are kind of
intellectuals. We see that now with groups like
American Renaissance and Vdiara,right, where the where the top
type people in those groups likePeter Brimlow and Jared Taylor
are very close with one another.But, you know, I once had a
conversation with Andrew Anglin of the Neo Nazi Daily Stormer

(01:08:25):
and he, you know, privately badmouthed his readers.
He described them as these idiots from the South.
He's whatever. And I can't remember what he
said privately. Yeah.
I mean, did your did your fatherany did you witness any
frustration in recruitment, his like this inability to get over
the hump of the like sort of 1500 or whatever you said?

(01:08:46):
Oh. Absolutely.
Oh, absolutely. All the time.
And his biggest frustration was that it was those type of people
that were responding to his message.
But what he really wanted was towhite collar people, the
intellectuals, the people who were like him to join him.

(01:09:07):
And his biggest frustration is that these people are too
comfortable. They're too comfortable with
their salary. They're too comfortable with
their suburban home and their two cars.
And they're not willing to risk that too do what's needed to,
you know, save his the white race.

(01:09:27):
And he said it's because of thatthat he was never able to really
be successful and recruiting thetype of people and the kind of
people that he wanted is that people were just too complacent,
too lazy, too comfortable in their life to put put their
necks out. I want to hear about kind of how
you, you know, found, found a way to reconcile your experience

(01:09:51):
growing up and and then, you know, transition out of this
transition's maybe not the rightword, but like, you know, you
obviously don't believe the things that your father
believed, but I imagine that wasvery difficult.
I, I mean, people, we, what's the cliche?
We can't pick our parents, right?
But aside from his abusive behavior towards you, which is,

(01:10:14):
it's it's own trauma, I imagine it was very difficult to process
and come to terms and, and figure out.
I'm trying to imagine myself in your shoes, having the light
bulb go off and be like, something is really wrong here,
you know? And I'm thinking, well, how
would I begin to go about figuring out who I am?

(01:10:37):
So I, I'm curious just to hear what that experience was like
for you on a personal level. It was a long road for sure.
And again, because of the abuse,because of the massive feelings
of unworthiness that I developedas I was growing up and held
onto into my adulthood for yearsand years and years.

(01:10:57):
You know, my biggest issue was rejection.
Anything that looked like or sounded like or tasted like
rejection would, would flip a switch inside me to where I
would shut down and shut out. And it was so counterproductive
to being a healthy adult, to being a good husband, being a

(01:11:18):
good father. And these patterns would repeat
over and over and over again. And I could not do anything
about it. One day, a professional peer of
mine confided in me and said, hey, look, Kelvin, I can see
what's going on with you. And he says, I had similar
struggles when I was younger. And he said, but I got help.
And he said, you need to get help immediately.

(01:11:38):
And I was like, and he's like, look, you know, if you don't get
help, you know, your children are going to be profoundly
influenced by your sadness as they're growing up.
So if you don't do it for yourself, at least do it for
your children. And so I did.
I did seek help. I went to a psychiatrist 1st.
And he, after two sessions, was like, your dad's a sadist.

(01:12:02):
You know, you're depressed. Here's a prescription to
antidepressants. You know, I went to the
drugstore to pick him up. And I was just like, you know
what? This isn't the answer.
I just know this isn't the answer.
So I gave the pills back, and I went back to this guy and I was
like, well, what kind of help did you get?
And he goes, well, I worked witha really, really good counselor.

(01:12:22):
And here's her name. And I went to see her, and that
very first meeting with that counselor changed my life.
She said you have incredibly awful tapes running through your
head, and we need to erase thosetapes and we need to put new
tapes in so that you can choose your thoughts wisely and so that
you will feel good about what you're thinking and not all the

(01:12:44):
terrible, awful thoughts you have running through your mind.
And through years of peeling back those layers of trauma and
examining what my beliefs, I thought my beliefs were, you
know, all the thoughts running through my head and learning
that you have control over thosethoughts.
You don't have to reach out and touch those thoughts.

(01:13:04):
You don't have to process. And that's what changed my life.
That's so interesting because for people who don't, who aren't
closely familiar with the white supremacist movement, that's the
exact type of thing they don't want people to do, right?
They always condemn. This is like sort of Jewish
behavior, right? Seeking Jewish.

(01:13:27):
Brainwash in here. You read the wrong book, that's
Jewish behavior. You talk to the wrong person,
that's also Jewish behavior. But really they don't they they
the idea of introspection is, iscondemned as being Jewish,
right? And to, to be able to search
yourself to try to understand what's going on and, and what
strikes me, I don't really have a question, but I just wanted to

(01:13:47):
say this is what's, what, what strikes me about it is that it
is, it is a method of control, which I probably could have said
before, but I, I realize as I hear you talking about feeling
liberated after having done that, I realized that by cutting
off, you know, things like psychiatry or whatever,

(01:14:09):
psychoanalysis, counseling, whatever, that is a way of
control because they don't want you to actually really look at
how you feel. They want you to feel that kind
of fear. You know, that's sort of like,
almost like like a dog. If it go hits a shock thing or
whatever, not to bring up HassanParker meme or whatever is going
on. If you touch, if you touch, if

(01:14:30):
you touch some shock thing, you can't go somewhere, right?
To get true liberation. There's no shock.
That's absolutely true. And you know, these groups,
they're looking for, you know, people who are suffering.
And these people who are suffering are looking for some
sort of connection to something,something that's bigger than

(01:14:51):
themselves. And so because of their
ignorance and because of their suffering, it's easier for them
instead of looking inside and saying, why do I feel this way?
It's easier for them to blame somebody else or something else
for the way they feel instead ofsaying, hey, why do I really
feel this way? What is it that I really believe

(01:15:11):
that makes me feel this way instead?
Or you say, oh, it's the immigrants in this country.
They're taking all our jobs. They're doing this, they're
doing this, they're doing this. And then you learn to hate them
and you learn to associate with people that hate the same thing
that you do. And it makes you feel better
because, you know, I'm superior,I'm white, I'm better than
everybody else. And I have all these friends who

(01:15:33):
believe the same thing. It's a terrible, vicious cycle.
But, you know, that's how these groups get people, you know, in
their mindset. Kind of assuming now on the
world today as we get closer to the end here, it seems like, you
know, it, especially online, thekind of hate that your father,

(01:15:59):
you know, dedicated so much of his life to to promoting and and
stocking is almost as mainstreamas it's ever been.
I I mean, certainly the underlying attitudes of racism
and bigotry have permeated society for as long as it's
existed. But but, you know, this really
harder edge, nastier edge of stuff seems to be, you know,

(01:16:24):
taking up an outsized amount of the conversation in politics
today. And yeah, as we're getting
closer to the end here, I'm justcurious what your thoughts
personally on on that are just given your experience and your
background and that you've had amuch, you know, more a more

(01:16:45):
personal and intimate look at this stuff than I would think
pretty much anybody else on on on earth might have, you know?
Well, I mean, I definitely agreewith you that, you know, racism
has been a part of the human condition forever.
I did believe, you know, before 2016, the things might be

(01:17:10):
getting better in our country. You know, you didn't see the
outward expressions of racism and hatred as often as you had.
You know, earlier on it became more politically incorrect.
But then with the 2016 election cycle, that changed.
You know, you had somebody, a potential leader that was saying

(01:17:32):
basically, it's OK to express these signs of hatred and these
words of hatred against the other.
It's OK to do that in public. And it basically made, you know,
the expression of your true racist beliefs that you had been
holding down. You made it, made it
unassailable. It's OK now and then, you know,

(01:17:55):
now it's just getting worse and worse and worse.
And, you know, ethnic identifications are repeatedly
exploited for power and security.
They are done for one reason only, and that's for separating
us from them. And modern demagogues use that
identification to stir up a powerful hatred of the other.

(01:18:16):
And because it's useful for themif they have this powerful
hatred of the other, they're notfocusing on what they should be
focusing on. They're not focusing on, hey, I
need better healthcare. I need more affordable
healthcare. Hey, I, you know, there should
be, you know, economic equality through all the people in this
country. Instead, they're focused on this

(01:18:37):
hatred that's being stirred up. And it, it just, it's used for
power. It's used for greed.
And it's, it's terrible what's happening in our world and in
our country as a result of that.On that note, your father died
at a fairly young age at 68 fromcancer.

(01:18:57):
What he was, it was 2002. It was the Bush years.
You know, I'm sure his his health was declining through
most of that. So he it was kind of really
Clinton to Bush. What do you think he would have
thought of, you know, first Obama and second, Trump?
I'm just, you know, just on my mind.

(01:19:20):
No, I know what he would have thought of Obama.
You know he would have. Been yeah, we probably shouldn't
repeat that on this podcast, but.
You know, he would have been so thoroughly disgusted.
Yeah. It would have been, you know,
and I think a lot of the things that have happened in this
country since Obama have happened because our country

(01:19:42):
elected a black man as president.
I think there were so many people who were so outraged that
their president was a black man that that gave rise to, you
know, Trump and people like him.Well, I think it has a lot to do
with it. I really do.

(01:20:03):
And you know, as far as Trump, Imean, I mean, I think he
probably would have loved Stephen Miller, you know, and
his policies and stuff, but. I'm not sure that he would have
liked Trump as an individual simply because of, you know,
what an incredibly well, I don'tknow if we should really get
into that on this show. But, you know, my dad, you know,

(01:20:26):
likes intellectual people and, you know, people who are really
trying to do something, whether it's worthy or not in our eyes.
And so I think he would have been disgusted by Trump as well.
Well, he might have followed thesame pattern as some of the
people who were influenced by your father who we've who Jared

(01:20:49):
and I have covered closely, which is they were really
excited in 2016 to get the theirtheir issues into a megaphone.
But then but, but have subsequently some of them and
we're talking about a particulartype of extremist have turned
because they believe he's too allied with, with, you know,

(01:21:10):
what they would describe like Jewish power or whatever, right?
Or something like that. And are kind of disgusted with
with just the mess and the sloppiness and the whatever
else, which just seems to be sort of what you're saying.
Yes, exactly. Kelvin, what are you up to now?
Because you're over in Georgia, right?
The country. I'm in the country of Georgia.

(01:21:32):
And so, you know, 30 years ago, my wife and I adopted two
children from the country of Georgia when they were three
months old. About 20 years ago, I decided to
form a foundation to administer to orphans in this country as a
way of giving back to Georgia for the incredible gifts that we

(01:21:52):
received. And I just, you know, it was
just a little idea. Oh, I can go and I can take a
few presents and help out a few kids.
And it's kind of blossomed into something much bigger than I
ever imagined it could be. And so it's called the Divine
Child Foundation. And we run several orphanage
houses and children's counselingcenters here.
But I'm also in the process now of adopting a third child that

(01:22:17):
actually grew up in one of my houses.
And, you know, I've met hundredsand hundreds of kids here in
Georgia. But this one kid was just so
exceptional and just reached outto me and stole my heart.
And so that's what I'm living here for now, is to provide this
child a home and a chance at a successful future.

(01:22:40):
Well, Kelvin, thanks so much forjoining, posting through it this
week. It's, it's been great talking to
you and you know, it's, it's, it's so nice to hear that you
were able to take everything that that happened in your
earlier life and then sort of direct that energy into helping

(01:23:02):
other people, helping other children find their way.
Also gives me a lot of hope. I will just say your whole story
gives me a lot of hope about getting out of the situation
that we're all in. Well, it's my pleasure meeting
you both and chatting with you. Thanks for the invitation.