050: How Will Stancil Became a Meme feat. Will Stancil

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
You know, back in 16 and 17 and they're like, well, how do you
know it's manipulating the algorithm?
I'm like, well, because yesterday I was getting 5000.
We we retweets a post Today I got 5 like a single digit 5.
Something changed. I do my own social media and
that's going out there. You know, I can tell when it's
about. Sometimes I'm like, you know
what, That's an average post. It's a little bit of me,
whatever it is, sometimes I hit that send button.
I know it's a banger. Welcome back to posting Through

(00:52):
IT, I'm Jared Holt. And I'm Michael Edison Haight.
Before we get started, we want to give a shout out to our
newest Patreon members Gretchen Carey, Patrick Berg and Lindsay.
This is the 50th episode of posting through it since we
rebooted this year and all I I mean just holy cow, folks, this
show has grown. We are getting new sign ups on

(01:15):
Patreon every week. It has been amazing to see like
when we started this up earlier this year, Mike and I were like,
oh, this, this could be fun. This be good outlet.
A show like this should exist again and I I have just been
blown away by the support we've gotten.
I'm exhausted a little bit, but in that exhausted you feel where

(01:37):
you're just like you keep rumbling and doing stuff and
that that is that you're happy with.
And so it's a really happy kind of push, I guess you would say.
So the impetus for this episode was AAI generated cartoon made
by a racist neo Nazi. And I mean that in a quite
literal sense. The cartoon is called The Will

(01:58):
Stancil Show and this is not thestart but the culmination of a
years long bullying campaign against this guy Will Stancil.

(02:30):
If you're online at all, you've probably seen this guy in your
timeline. He does not log off.
He's an incessant poster. He has his critics to the left,
He has his critics to the right.He posts about politics a lot.
And regardless of like how you feel about Will, maybe you think
he's annoying, Maybe you disagree with his ideas.

(02:52):
The radical right, which we talkabout on the show all the time,
has really singled Will out and put him through a kind of online
hell that nobody should go through.
Will had, in their minds, has become the avatar of all of
Maga's opponents for no particular reason that I can

(03:15):
really suss out. I've definitely had some run
insurance with Will online that were contentious.
He's a, a kind of a liberal in my mind.
He's a generic liberal poster inmy mind, like just what liberals
believe and he's just had run insurance with basically
everybody. He argues from a very sincere,

(03:36):
direct point of view. Mike and I have both been at the
center of online pylons before by the far right, and they can
be very disorienting. I mean, I've certainly had
things. I mean, I've had a couple
situations escalate to the pointwhere I had to get police
involved, the FBI involved in some cases.

(03:57):
It can be really terrifying. But what I've gone through, at
least, I mean, it's been these flashes, these moments of it,
and when it's happening, it feels quite terrifying.
But it's, there's always been a point where it kind of ends, you
know, it kind of fades out and things feel normal again for a
while until the next one comes around, I guess.

(04:19):
Yeah, a troll storm. That is one of the terms that
they use. But what Will has gone through
has he's been going through thisso long.
And again, it's like there does not seem to be a particular
reason, like, like a particular posting crime he has committed

(04:40):
that could even like remotely justify that in my head.
So I, I, I was just, it's so bewildering to see it.
The term I see thrown around a lot is back in the day was troll
storm. But what I was going through is
not that I've, I've been at the center of that before.
You know, I think anybody who's covered the radical right has

(05:00):
experienced that sort of thing. This is very weird.
This is surreal. It's sort of like he became a
meme for the MAGA, right? And there's copies on top of
copies on top of copies to the point that he's been robbed of
all humanity and just become this perpetual bullying victim
for them. A term that comes up when people

(05:22):
talk about this is a lol cow, right?
Which is lol cow, meaning, you know you can milk this person
for laughs. And when that happens, I, I
mean, this is not something people opt into.
You can hasten it if you engage with the people who start
obsessing with you, that can perpetuate it.

(05:44):
You know, I, I mean, there's things that can certainly
exacerbate it, but nobody chooses to become a fixation
like this. I I did some freelance work with
a a group over the summer and the way they explain it to the
people they work with is like a cinematic universe, right.
If you think of like the marvel movies or a superhero movie or

(06:06):
whatever, suddenly you are cast in their movie.
In the case of this will Stancilshow cartoon literally cast as
the lead in this cartoon dreamt up by this psychotic racist that
we'll talk about in a second. But once you're in the cinematic
universe, there is no leaving, right?

(06:26):
You've become part of the lore. There's no like debunking, no
push back, no clever reply that will get you out of the hole.
And you can come back up in the storyline in these weird
crossover events in in ways you could never anticipate.
They're talking about something else and all of a sudden it's
like when you're watching Superman and the Green Lantern

(06:47):
just shows up and is out two minutes later.
You know, it's just you become part of this universe that looks
nothing like reality and it, it is just so disorienting.
So the cartoon that has been published online is an AI
generated cartoon and it's created by, as Jared mentioned,

(07:10):
a neo Nazi in Emily Eusus Yusu. What is it, Jared?
Yukis, I think you you. I don't know she's.
A pistachio girl is what she is.She's she's a pistachio girl.
Give us the Lord. The cartoon is like a mix of
sort of like where Will is presented in a sort of as a, as
a kind of hapless figure who's desperately trying to push civil

(07:33):
rights on the world, right? And then there are these robots
that are trying to rape him. This is sort of based on Grok
This, the AI that's used in ElonMusk's X, which has in the past
said some weird things about Will Stansel for some reason.
Very graphic, like rape fantasies like.

(07:53):
Right. Basically, and just for some
background, who Emily Yukas is, Emily Yukas worked at Citizens
Bank Park doing concessions for the Philadelphia Phillies games.
She was known as Pistachio girl there and had some fans, I
guess, for whatever her antics were as a concession worker.
And then she was fired for that job, Jared, because of her

(08:16):
associations with Richard Spencer and the white
nationalist movement. Which is fired as a concession
worker at Justin Bank Park. She she was a kind of, she was
an early milkshake duck figure, I guess you would say, beloved
pistachio girls fired for being a white nationalist.
And she bounced around in various radical right circles.

(08:40):
She was on Gab where she posted a lot of kind of genocidal
rhetoric about black people and Jews.
And she's associated with WarrenBalog, who is her, I believe her
husband or her partner. Warren Balog was part of the the
group National Justice Party, which is a kind of an
embarrassing attempt at a neo Nazi group.

(09:00):
They lasted a couple years. They used to do they used to do
like these little rallies in barns.
They had uniforms that made themlook like they worked at Bob's
big boy. This feature for people who know
Mike Penovich, who used to to bethe host of the podcast the
daily Showa the the anti-Semiticwhite nationalist podcast, the

(09:21):
daily Showa. He was kind of the the chairman.
He would self appointed. I love the I I can, I can I call
myself the chairman of posting for what a what a ridiculous
title to give yourself. Anyway, the point is this lasted
a couple years before it devolved into the usual
infighting, people kind of stealing crypto from one
another, blah blah blah. I don't know what she does for

(09:43):
money necessarily besides from do the will stencil show and ask
for handouts online, but that isher background.
In recent years, sort of National Justice Party era.
Emily Yukas, she as far as I cantell, just host a podcast with
Warren, who like you said, is isher partner, long time white

(10:07):
nationalist activist, where she you know, the conversation
topics end up being things like why I changed my mind and
thought Hitler rocked. Actually I mean like I said up
top, a neo Nazi and quite a literal sense of that word.
I would quote her worst gap posts but we can't really do it.

(10:29):
Yeah, yeah, I don't, I don't think we can just say the N word
like 20,000 times. She is more than a little
racist, to be clear, and despitethe fact that she is who she is,
Jared, this will stancil show that is just an extension of
year. A year's long bullying campaign

(10:50):
has been a braced by some more mainstream people than National
Justice Party. Yeah, I mean, this has really
been her biggest break in a longtime.
She's made web cartoons for a long time.
She was a character on new grounds.
You know, if folks remember thatwebsite, you know, she posted,

(11:11):
you know, she because she's trying to make money off this
Will Stancil cartoon that she's so, so glad to get back to
animating after a long time and she's getting some money.
But it's it's hard to say how much, but this is getting picked
up. Marc Andreessen, the tech head

(11:32):
of what is it like A16Z or something?
It's some bullshit like investment firm that backs
really volatile tech start-ups. Recently recently TikTok as well
as previously sub stack. Yeah, very powerful.
Guy was seemed to be talking about the Will Stancil cartoon

(11:53):
most. Successful like animation duo of
the last 30 years. And yeah, I think that the AI
thing is we're right on the tipping point of that.
And, and your point, like maybe maybe we actually just saw the
first one. It's, it's, it's so let's say
toxic that it's hard to recommend that people watch it.
Yeah, yeah. But it is it, it is, it is a,
it's for sure a South Park caliber level thing created in

(12:15):
AI by somebody who didn't use any.
It's traditional, you know, theydidn't use any, that they didn't
use any traditional, you know, techniques to use for animating
anything. It's created entirely with Sora
scene by scene. And yeah, it's, it just as a, as
a, as a, as a demonstration of technology.
It's just, it's obvious that that moment has not arrived.
And your point, Eric? Like I do think, for example, I,
I think there's now actually a new form of political

(12:36):
propaganda, at least in the world, which is, you know, that
basically the custom produced, you know, basically South Park
ish, you know, kind of, you know, video series and, and AI
is going to make that so easy. For people to do and this has
gotten some coverage too in The Spectator which is a fucking
rag. To be clear, they tapped Charles
Cornish Dale who online goes as raw egg nationalist and was

(13:01):
synonymous before he was unmasked by hope not hate auk
anti hate organization. They let him go long.
I I mean this piece has got to be like 2000 words is but the
whole thing is the will Stancil show is art is what they said.
And we actually reached out to the spectator about this article

(13:23):
for this episode asking you know, in the article they
mentioned Emily Yuccas by name. It's clear they know where this
cartoon came from. We asked if they knew she was a
neo Nazi and if they did, why they didn't feel like that was
worth saying at any point in this article.
We also asked about this raw eggnationalist guy who is extremely

(13:44):
far right and has all kinds of fascist views of his own.
How did they start publishing him?
Because they published a few pieces.
And the fact that this guy used to distribute his magazine
through a publishing house that was closely connected with
National Justice Party, the white supremacist group, is that

(14:04):
a potential conflict? Do they think about stuff like
that? And then I also just asked him
point blank if they interrogate anything that people write for
them or do they just run these pieces straight up?
I didn't get a response from them because of course not,
They're fucking cowards. All the people that work in this
media space are just fucking cowards dude.
Yeah. And and Spectator has a long

(14:25):
history of publishing extreme far right figures outside of
this in addition to, you know, some more normal fare, I guess
you would call it. So it's not totally surprising
to see it. It is very low standard stuff
and then I think the emphasis here is this, that this is the
culmination of a year's long bullying campaign against one

(14:47):
guy who is just a guy. Yeah, that guy Will Stancil.
He is a attorney and policy researcher, lives in Minnesota.
He ran last year for a House seat in Minnesota.
He was favored to win until the very end where he lost the
primary and and aside from this,you know, neo Nazi created AI

(15:11):
cartoon about him. Will has ruffled some feathers
all over the Internet. There's kind of a meta discourse
about him. And and if you listen to other
podcasts, you know, some of themdiscuss this cartoon or have
discussed his post before. And we figured why not talk to

(15:31):
the man himself? How bad can this guy be?
We're going to find out. Here's our interview with Will
Stancil. The spirits I was going to ask
possess. They never existed in physical
form. They only exist in spirit form.

(15:52):
It's. Shruby.
So we've been talking about the Will Stancil show, and we have
the star of that production joining us now.
Welcome to posting through it. Will Stancil.
What's up dude? Thanks for having me.
Thanks for coming man. We appreciate.
It unusual circumstances. Yeah, yeah, definitely some
weird circumstances. We want to talk about what's
been going on with you, but alsojust to try to get to know you a

(16:15):
little better. First question I have for you
is, if you think back on your life, like what was your
political awakening? What?
What did it for you? What?
When did you become politically conscious?
Well, I'm, I'm pretty old actually.
So I, my, the thing that really for me was the first time I

(16:35):
really started to have very strong political views was in
this in would have been 2002. I was in high school and I was
sort of the push to the Iraq warup top when I think I would have
called myself a Republican. The South, ignorance and the
fact I grew up in the South and everyone was Republican, I
didn't really know anything about.
Where'd you? Where'd you grow up?
In North Carolina, little town North Carolina.

(16:57):
And, and so, but I had, you know, in 911 it happened to
everyone was pro Bush. And then people start talking
about going to war in Iraq. And I thought that's the
stupidest thing I've ever heard.Why would we do that?
What has Iraq done? I've I was, I had read AI, had
read a newspaper and I understood that Iraq had nothing
to do with 9/11. I didn't understand.
It was a pretty big country as far as I could tell from my, you

(17:18):
know, I mean, at that point you barely had the Internet.
It was like, it just didn't seemlike it was going to work out
great. And I, I mean, at first I
thought it was just like all just a game.
And then it seemed more and morereal, like really going to do
it. I thought, these people are
absolutely nuts. They're going to get us all
killed. And I have been, you know, just
total partisan Democrat literally ever since.
Yeah. So what like informs or or

(17:40):
guides your political beliefs today?
You know, you had that sort of heel turn or or, you know,
political awakening is maybe. Based on is.
Too traumatic of a term, but what informs your political
beliefs today? Because like I, I'm sure if you
spin back the clock like I'm in your replies somewhere, being

(18:02):
like this is so wrong. Or, you know, like, like like
it's it's, you know, a chapter in every Internet user's life,
it seems, is going into your replies and disagreeing with
you. But but what but what?
But what guides your political beliefs?
Like, what motivates you to like, speak out about your

(18:22):
beliefs? And where do those beliefs come
from? Yeah, I think there's a couple
of things. I mean, First off, I, I'm
basically just a liberal. I don't have, you know,
particularly crazy views about anything.
I'm, I'm a progressive liberal. I mean, I voted for Elizabeth
Warren into 2020. All of her.
I, you know, I believe in, I'm very strong believer in, you

(18:45):
know, sort of a tolerant, open democracy.
I'm a civil rights attorney in my day job.
And I think that we should buildsociety that welcomes all kinds
of people or people involved groups don't feel threatened.
I believe in the, you know, ruleof law.
I believe that, you know, the Constitution, constitutional
government is good. The Constitution is basically
good with some problems. You know, again, nothing here

(19:05):
crazy, nothing here dramatic. But I think I think what also
maybe maybe makes, you know, people frustrated with me is I I
believe that we have an obligation to sort of speak out
in defense of these things if webelieve them.
And I think that that frankly, people have a lot of agency in
the world more than you think. And if you make noise about

(19:26):
something, you push, you keep pushing on an idea, you never
quite know when the sort of, youknow, forces that are holding us
back will give way. And so because of that, we have
an obligation to be allowed and to be be we have an obligation
to be be relentless in our advocacy.
And I think that that has reallycontributed to sort of my

(19:48):
political, I don't know what would you call it?
Well, I mean, being very being very online in addition to being
a civil rights attorney and, andgrounded in that you're also
very online. And I think what you're trying
to just describe there is that you, you feel like a need to
speak out about the issues that you care about.
And one thing that struck me about that is that a lot of

(20:09):
people that you have on that arepolitically engaged now are kind
of reluctant to call themselves a liberal, right?
It is it because there's been a lot of.
Negative things associated with liberalism in the last like 10
to 15 years or so. And you know, that includes on
the left. I know you've got a lot of
attacks on the left because there's been a really growing

(20:33):
socialist movement even within the Democratic Party and things
like that. And it's, it's kind of rare to
hear that. And it's, it, it at least
someone outspoken about it who'slike very online, right?
I mean, certainly among people like my parents or something
like that, they'd be like, oh, I'm a liberal and something like
that. But you rarely hear somebody
who's like very online and wantsto say that I'm that they're a
liberal. And it makes me think to to some

(20:55):
degree, maybe that is some of the reason why you get attacked.
Yeah. I mean, it probably is.
I don't mean ultimately at the end of the day, I think I think
that the liberalism has a lousy brand right now because it it
got to associate with the statusquo.
And so it basically all everyone's points out everything
got piled on top of liberalism. But but ultimately, if you look

(21:17):
at the things that I think are most important in our society,
tolerance and pluralism, rule oflaw, that sort of thing, you
know, these are just liberal ideas.
And, and I think they run deepereven than some of the, you know,
economic policy ideas that you hear.
I mean, not that I don't supportmany of those ideas, but I think
that they're built on these, on this, this sort of structure of

(21:40):
liberalism. The other thing I would say that
gets me into, probably gets me into some trouble is that I
believe very strongly that politics is largely a social
thing, that it's a, it's about communication and persuasion,
about winning hearts and minds, that politics is essentially
rooted in people's heads and their ideas and beliefs, not
necessarily in their economic circumstances.

(22:01):
And part of this is I grew up around a lot of poor people who,
you know, were their politics were not, and I know where their
politics came from because I knew them, you know, came from
their community, came from watching Fox News.
Now it comes from, you know, listening to, to right wing
media all the time. And so I, you know, there's a
couple of implications of this, one of which is that, you know,

(22:22):
if we can't just focus on passing, you know, progressive
or, or left wing policy and assuming it fixes everything.
And it also creates an, I think an obligation to go out there
and trying to win that battle for horror to mind, to, to
dominate the cultural space, to,to be present and visible in the
public sphere, in public discourse.
And so, you know, people like what, you know, why do you post
all the time on, on social media?

(22:43):
And it's and because I think that that's, that's ultimately
how you reach people more fundamentally than this kind of
indirect policy route. When you were a kid, what did
you want to be when you grew up?When I was young, I, I wanted to
be a pilot and every, you know, sometimes I'll be outside in a
plane, I'll fly over and I just think how different my life
could be, how, how differently things turned out.

(23:06):
What was that for you? What did you want to be growing
up? If I recall, I wanted to be an
astronaut. An astronaut hell.
Yeah, yeah, it was sweet. You know, I was like, well, I
should probably just try and be president because that'd be
cool. And then I also was like, I
could also in my free time, I could be in the Olympics because
that'd be. Cool too, Astronaut President

(23:26):
Olympia. You know, just just like 3
casual career. The Forrest Gump, The trifecta.
One thing I definitely did want to be was an attorney.
Very much not at all. That was kind of an accident.
Honestly, doing probably doing alot more good as an attorney
than anything else and includingthe posting I should point out.
But yeah, that's that's true. So you know, I have some some

(23:50):
strange questions which is what is your, what is your?
What was your worst first date? Oh God, I had AI had one time I
went on a date with someone you have to on dates where even
confrontational. I went on a date.
I think I've been on a couple dates where people like I know
who you are, which is not something you want.
You know that you never want to hear.

(24:11):
That that's terrifying. Whenever that happens to me in
public, if people are like, I know who you are, I'm either
like this person is about to puta gun in my face or they're
going to be like, keep it up buddy.
And there there's two options there.
I get, I get a lot, I mean, probably once a week someone
will stop me on the street and be like, I've got a strange
question and I'm like, I know what the question is.

(24:31):
And yes, I mean, I'm, I'm tryingto play though, but, but, but
you know the question. But then I always have to ask,
is this a friendly conversation we're having or are you about to
yell at me? But regardless, no, I actually
they did. The worst date I've been on was
one where the other person had literally, I mean, she was a
very fancy doctor but had no interests or hobbies at all.
And I kept trying to find out, do you like traveling?
Do you like cooking? Do you like, do you know, why

(24:53):
did you become a doctor? Her question answered everything
was I don't know. I don't know.
And it was just like I and then after like 30 minutes, she's
like, I'm going to go to anothercoffee shop other than when
we're sitting in and get some coffee, you know, And I said,
please do that. Oh.
It was awful. It was awful.
It was so boring. Oh, man, so the reason we're
having you on today, just looking at the way that the

(25:16):
political rights and some parts of the political lab have kind
of turned you into a meme of sorts.
I guess the first question is, do you know why people fixate on
you so much? Like because it's really
extreme. I mean, we started out this
podcast talking about AI generated cartoon and neo Nazi

(25:37):
made by you and was maybe viewedby Mark Andreessen and and
shouted out who is extremely powerful, extremely wealthy tech
guy. I mean, it's grok talk about
that a little bit. I mean, is obsessive toward you,
toward you the the AI chatbot built into X?

(25:59):
Another thing DHS, the official DHS account is posting trying to
mock you. How do you understand like why
this is happening? What like because this is it's
so bizarre. Like Mike and I have dealt with
this in small doses in our own ways before of just like getting
targeted by shitty people, pylons, whatever.

(26:21):
I, I mean, I feel like I've beenthrough the ringer, but it's
still barely holds a candle to this shit that's been going on
with you for months at this point, if not even longer than
that. Years maybe.
How do you understand it? I, I mean, how do you think
about it in your head? What's the answer to that
question? Like why are people so fixated
on you specifically? I have a few different theories

(26:44):
I don't really know. One is that I'm, you know, just
cursed by it, which. Yeah.
But, but no, I, I think, I thinkthat there's a few, a few things
that I do that probably contribute to it.
Like you said, I'm unambiguouslyliberal.

(27:05):
I'm not ashamed of it. And that makes people upset.
I'm, I'm generally willing to sort of criticize people kind of
regardless of which team they'repart of, which means that I've
basically criticized every, I try not to be too personal about
it unless they're really bad people.
But, but I am not afraid to say I think that's wrong to people

(27:26):
who are liberals, who are centrists, who are on the left
and certainly to people on the right.
And, and then I also am willing to be very insulting if I think
you're a Nazi or a fascist, you know, scumbag.
And so I think that that, you know, it doesn't, there's not a
lot of there's not a sense that there's a with a team that will
defend me, makes me sort of an easy target.
I think a lot of people are at least an attractive target.

(27:48):
I'm not a very ironic person. I mean, I'm, I'm, I'm pretty
honest about what? I believe you.
Know that's that's a crime online dude, I'm honest.
Yeah, I was. I was about to say like it it.
Everything came together for me all of a sudden.
We solved it. Yep, we we can in the interview
here. Just just get it.
Well, I mean, yeah, I think it'skind of even comes through in
the cartoon a little bit becauseI mean, the cartoon is just like

(28:11):
there's a certain, there's a certain undercurrent in the
cartoon of, of you know, where these people, it's like almost
like they kind of like me. Yeah, yeah, I I picked up on
that too. They don't portray you as like
some super villain, although I beat the more recent episodes
are starting to get in that territory.
But but it's like their portrayal of you is sort of as

(28:34):
this, like, klutzy, almost kind of goofy.
Yeah, Lib, you know. Yeah, I mean, they're like, you
know, oh, he's, he's like, he's,he means it too much, you know,
he's ridiculous. And I think, I think that
that's, I think that that, you know, being, you know,
unabashedly believing something,not making jokes about it and,
and trying to, you know, defend those beliefs.

(28:56):
And, and also generally kind of trying to stay optimistic about,
I mean, I'm not particularly optimistic about the United
States right now, but trying to keep the, this optimistic
perspective that, you know, we should fight to improve things
and, and, you know, rather than just just, you know, rending our
garments in despair. I think it attracts a lot of of
vitriol. I mean, it's a lot easier to
sort of be ascending to criticize people, you know, and

(29:16):
there's, and then there's probably, you know, I mean, I'm,
I'm, I don't know, beyond that. Oh yeah.
There's something else I do because I don't really, I don't
really like blocking people on the Internet, even the worst
ones. I would much rather engage, go
back and forth and I'm perfectlyhappy to go back and forth with
people. I mean, it's not happy to do it

(29:37):
because it's gonna be exhausting.
But I will go back and forth with people who are, you know,
20 followers and whatever. I mean, I don't really care.
Like I, we, we, I will talk to you.
We, I will, you know, we will hash it out friendly or
unfriendly. And, and that just draws people
in. I think, I think they're used to
people who are sort of, you know, larger better known

(29:59):
accounts just blocking them intosort of like floating away and
and I don't really do that. Well, one thing that leaps out
to me about that is that the political Internet or political
social media has been has becomeincreasingly cynical and irony
driven over time. I feel like, I feel like Maggie
is almost the final form for some of these people.

(30:23):
You look at some of the like, for example, the Red Scare
podcast and they started as likesuperficially left.
Maybe even you can always say that they were never really left
and they were just looking for an, you know, whatever, or
they're just going to where the money is or whatever.
There's so many other factors, but it feels like people will,
will just be like, yeah, why notbe a cruel, sick son of a bitch?

(30:44):
Why why don't I do that as they,as they continue to kind of like
irony poison themselves. Now, I would say that that
different she is. There's a lot of leftists who
are very funny with irony, for instance.
And I think that they have limits, right?
They they, they, they, they haveprinciples that they stick to on
the sort of irony left where they said like, yeah, I'll joke
about this, but I won't joke about that or whatever.

(31:07):
But you don't, you don't operatewith that shield.
And I feel like that that is something and there's plenty of
you to go around, right? Like you post a lot and you're
just like a heavy poster. I, I, I, I, this is not a
question so much. It's just a talking point.
I just, you know, I just wonder if that's that's the thing.
It's like you just don't have that irony gear that like some
of these people develop and sortof posting to defend themselves,

(31:30):
which I think a lot of that comes from, I don't know if any
if, if you folks disagree or not.
That comes from their like the insecurity that naturally comes
from being online, right? Where where it's like if you
post something sincere and it gets one, like you're going to
feel like shit, right? You are self protecting when you
when you shroud yourself in irony.

(31:51):
I would say I think that is probably true.
I I, I don't spend a lot of timetrying to be funny online.
Not that I don't appreciate whenpeople are funny, but what their
people are funnier than me and like, like, they can do it.
You know, I'm happy to laugh at their jokes and give them that.
The other thing is, yeah, I mean, I do think there's a lot
of insecurity in the core of howpeople operate on the Internet
left and right. Honestly, I've now had enough

(32:11):
exposure to the far right to think that a lot of them are
really deeply unsecure, secure and unhappy people.
I can tell you from having spenta lot of time with these people
that they are. Yeah, and so and I, I, you know,
not to say that I'm like perfectly secure about all
things in my life, but I am fairly secure in what I believe
and in my politics. I, I, you know, there's just
some core values that I feel like that I was, I was raised

(32:34):
right. I was given the right values on
how to treat people on like, youknow, play by the rules, you
know, be, you know, treat peoplefairly, treat people well, don't
hurt people who are different than you don't, don't hurt
people for your own enjoyment. And I don't in my view, like,
like, I don't care if every single person on the Internet
tells me I'm wrong and ridiculous for saying those
things. Like, I still believe them.

(32:54):
And I'm just totally secure on that.
So, you know, and it gives me sort of, I feel like it does
sort of give me at least I, I, you know, I put me in this
position where I don't feel the need to put up the irony of
defense all the time. I got a quick very quick follow
about about that, which is you're being attacked by racists
for being anti racist, right? Like the the character on the

(33:16):
show is anti racist. Yeah, that's like that's like
1/2. 3 jokes. Yeah, it's for some reason
that's the joke, right? But I'm just curious, do you do
you, do you take any pride in that?
I mean, obviously this is this is like ongoing harassment
campaign that's really brutal. But since these are deeply held
beliefs, I mean, do you take, I mean, sort of like, yeah,
actually fuck you. I'm not racist.

(33:37):
No, yeah. I mean, you know, I mean, look,
if you're, if you're going to depict me as, you know,
ridiculous way saying, oh, he's ridiculous because he hates
racists and he's, you know, wants to help people and he's
hates Nazis. Yeah, sure.
That's that's that is, I mean, not the way they've done the way
they've done it has been really unpleasant, but often.
But those aren't qualities that I'm going to, you know, yeah,

(34:00):
I'm not going to say, oh, no, no, I'm not like that at all.
I'm totally like that. Yeah, Yeah.
So I have a question. This AI cartoon, it was made by
Emily Yukas. We talked about her a little bit
before you came on. This kind of feels like it's
going to the next level, right? At least from the outside

(34:21):
looking in. I don't know if you feel the
same way, but whether it's this Grok chatbot, this, this AI
generated cartoon, I think Emilyused Sora.
I saw her post something about how much money she's spending on
compute time with Sora. And, you know, I've seen all
kinds of memes posted of you where they, you know, put your

(34:44):
face on something or, or, or getsome public figure to reiterate
a, a joke about you or something.
What's your, I, I guess just what are your thoughts about
being at the epicenter of something like this and then
seeing AI used in this way because you were getting
targeted by these people long before that.

(35:06):
Has that changed the experience on the receiving end?
I I'm just curious your thoughtsbecause it's just, it seems
almost like a higher production value.
I mean, we're talking about AI. So we're not shooting for
Hollywood studio here, but like a little higher production value
version of the same thing. Yeah.
I'm just curious. I mean, it's, it's interesting

(35:28):
because there's actually been Emily's been making videos about
me for at least a year now. We can talk about that.
But you can see that you can sort of see the improvement of
AI tools because, you know, initially there were these
really, really janky videos, while them were pretty asimitic.
And then over time they've become more and more, you know,

(35:49):
sophisticated and, and finally they've kind of reached a level
where, you know, so many people are starting to notice.
And I think that what's interesting about the AI thing
is that how it it does feel as if on some level it it, it is so
when someone can generate a fullcartoon show about you and do,
you know, people are doing songsand people are doing, you know,

(36:10):
and then all the, all the all the, I guess fans are the
audience are then going out and using Sora or Grok to make their
own little AI clips, you know, and taking pictures of me from
my social media and, you know, making me do ridiculous stuff.
Yeah. You do start to feel like you're
kind of losing control of your identity a little bit.
You exit you as a person, you know, are suddenly irrelevant.

(36:30):
And you that exists in the public mind, in this, in the
shared mind of, you know, thousands and thousands of
people, is this, you know, totally artificial entity that
may or may not resemble you at all.
And one of the things I will say, I mean, This is why, you
know, to your point earlier about like, oh, am I happy to be
portrayed as like, you know, this like guy who hates Nazis

(36:51):
and hates racists. It's like, I guess there's a
small blessing here that at least the person are depicting
into making, you know, mockery of in that respect, you know,
does, you know, I mean, that's sort of how I would like to be
seen because if they wanted to make me into something
completely different, they couldprobably do it.
It's ironic to some degree. Again, I have no question, but I
just want to bring it up for talking about it's iron to some

(37:12):
degree because so many of the people who are enjoying this
hide in fear of being called outfor being racist, even though
they open often openly are. And I'm saying not just the
creator of this, but a lot of the people who are celebrating.
Yeah, what's interesting I, I think that one of the things
that this what you see in general is that a lot of people
live in fear of, of what's happening to me, happening to

(37:34):
them or some small part of it. It's always, it's always
interesting to see when someone,you know, because the Internet
is a crazy place and people will, you know, people suddenly
get targeted by mobs or this or that.
And how quickly people generallyjust sort of collapse, delete
their account, go with perceiving private hide banished
completely when when the sort ofthe focus is on them for a

(37:56):
little bit. And I think it's in, you know, I
think that that, you know, I mean, there's a couple couple
things that come out of that. One is that it's really hard to
describe the experience of it unless you've been in it.
We're social creatures and we are not really wired to have

(38:17):
hundreds or even dozens of people condemning us and, and
insulting us and mocking us at once.
It takes over your brain in a way that is hard to describe.
And then the other thing about this was strange, though, having
been through this process many times over the last few years
and kind of escalate kind of series of escalating challenges.
One might sort of describe it asyou you do actually survive it.

(38:40):
Like it doesn't, you know, at the end of the day, you kind of
wake up and you I was, you can wake up.
You go out your door and it's kind of like, oh, it's just kind
of all, you know, it's it, it's not in the real world.
It's all it's all in, you know, it's all in people's heads.
It's all online. It's all social thing, you know,
but but the, you know, sun's still up.
So it's, it's, it's a very, it'sa very discerning experience.
And I think a lot of people, I think that, but I think that the

(39:02):
the fear of it is, is actually driving a lot of how people
behave online. Question about real life.
Has this bled into your real life?
You mentioned, you know, every once in a while someone will
stop you on the street and be like, can I ask you a question?
But you know, you're an attorneyby day, you have a, a normal ass

(39:25):
job, a good job. I, I, I mean, you're doing
important things as a civil rights attorney.
We need more people like that. But but I'm curious if this is
like bled into that world beforeor your personal life in in ways
that or uncomfortable or, or or or weird.
I because I just remember, I, I mean, I certainly have not been

(39:47):
at the epicenter of something like you have will, but there's
been points even working at, youknow, these anti hate nonprofits
or these newsrooms or whatever. We start to get dog piled and
then it's like, OK, boss wants to talk to you.
And it's like how the fuck do I even begin to explain this and
why? This is not like a liability for

(40:10):
the company. I I just remember I got like a
e-mail from my boss my last job at one point cuz there's some
one of these like liberal peoplethat post clips from TV.
I'm not going to name who he was.
I was trying to tell me I was doing like propaganda for Trump
or something and I told him I could.
I think my exact words were like, take him to fucking school
if he needed me to, which I probably shouldn't have posted

(40:33):
to be fair. But but you know, it's
regrettable post, I'll be honest.
But yeah, I'm just curious. I mean, because there's there's
what you posted like you're outspoken.
You're not afraid to argue with people that disagree with you or
engage with your critics and that sort of thing.
But it got me thinking about it again, because you just

(40:53):
mentioned with these AI cartoonsor crock or whatever, like some
of this is starting to evolve ina way that it is kind of out of
control. It's like a, the bus is driving
itself, you know? So I'm just curious how that has
overlapped in your personal life.
Yeah, I think it's weird becausethere it will pop up
occasionally. I previously worked at

(41:16):
University of Minnesota for manyyears.
And, you know, I had some occasionally, there are some
tense days where people, if something blow up online, what
happened is that people watch the Dean of the university would
start getting emails being like,you have to fire this guy.
He's out there saying, you know,something that had probably not
said at all. So that, you know, And then I
think over time they kind of just kind of said, OK, so this
guy's got something weirdo online, but they're mostly

(41:38):
ignored it. I would say that the biggest
thing that has affected my meat,I will say the one thing that
happened last year is I ran for office.
I ran for State House in Minnesota.
I ran, I ran a very normal campaign.
I did pretty well, you know, thethree candidates.
I came in second, you know, But one of the things that happened
in the campaign is that there was a, an effort to attack me as

(41:59):
a social media person, you know,and just like a social media, a
tweeter basically, which I thought was funny because I had,
you know, quite a lot of experience in state issues.
Yeah, I was reading some news stories.
I mean, they really tried to ratfuck you at the end.
If I can. You.
You might not. You might not describe it like
that, but that's that's sort. Of they sent out some, they sent

(42:21):
out some mailers that had tweetsaround taking out of context to
make it look like an opposed abortion or, you know, one of
the downplay abortion, which wasjust completely false.
They had taken it in a way that had.
But it flip-flopped the race if I read correctly.
That's. No one really knows.
Honestly, the thing that mattered more in the races is
that I think that some of the this is this is, I guess your

(42:41):
exclusive to your podcast because I usually care for about
talking about this, but it's been long enough.
I think some of the Democrats inthe state legislature were very
nervous about having someone whowas a, you know, notorious
online figure in their caucus because I was told that people
thought that I would, wouldn't play ball, which in my opinion

(43:03):
is maybe a positive thing. I'm an, I'm an independent
thinker. And I think that people, I had
been told that, you know, I mean, also I could independently
fundraise, which is scary because it means that, you know,
I'm, I'm a little bit less reliant on the, on the party
structure. And so I think that there was
some, a lot of trepidation over that.
And the thing that really screwed me was not necessarily

(43:24):
the the the online mailers, but then there was a push to get
some major far party figures andthe retiring incumbent to
endorse my opponents. In my sense is that flip-flopped
the race that we had been up until that point that I had been
probably in the league from, as best as anyone could tell.
And I've been told that by a number of people.
And then in the four days beforethere was a really critical

(43:46):
endorsement. It was just a sea change at the
doors. You could just tell.
So that was my read of the race.But that's how and the other
thing, but the other actually the other moment in which this
really entered the race and thisis actually more relevant to
your podcast, is that early in the race.
And this this involves the same people that we are dealing with
today. Early in the race where after I
announced the, you know, the neoNazi community, which has this

(44:08):
obsessive relationship with me on Twitter, realize that if they
attacked me for entering the race, that they would actually
probably boost me. And So what they did instead is
they started to try and depict me as a neo Nazi and then they
started attacking my opponents. And I have to say that I didn't
consider that this would happen.I knew that I would get a lot of
heat for getting the race from from the Internet people and

(44:30):
that was fine. I mean, I was like, I can take
it. It didn't occur to me that they
would go after the other people in the race.
But when this happened. And so, you know, so my
opponents are getting lots of threats.
And I mean, I think, I think in the scheme of things, it was it
was probably compared to, you know, for me it would have been
like kind of standard. But for someone who is not

(44:50):
accustomed to this, who has not lived in this space for a long
time, I think it was shocking and overwhelming.
And so there were some stories in local media about that, like
why Nazis were, you know, somebody in this race knows
because of me. It was, I'm sure it was very
terrifying for them. I know it was.
It was very unsettling. We had to take off some of their
digital stuff because they were getting dog piled by neo Nazis.
There are lots of images being circulated with like my face on

(45:12):
top of looking swastikas. They actually set up a fake
website they stood in. Unfortunately, a bought will
stansel.com like several months before I announced I had never
even thought to buy it in my life because I'm stupid.
Rookie mistake. Yeah, Yeah, I know.
And so they turned it into a mockery of my campaign site that
had all this like, you know, it seemed like mine at first blush,
but then it had all this like really crazy, you know, rhetoric

(45:34):
on it. And I would get emails through
the race being like, is this your it's just your website.
And so I honestly, that was something that was really, you
know, really jumped into the forefront in a, in a pretty
pronounced way for at least a week or so.
They also pretended that they fundraise a bunch of my fund
funding, but they did not because you have to put your
number and your, your name and your, your contact information

(45:56):
there. So.
Yeah, that's that's FEC data. They're not doing that.
They, they are like stone cold obsessed with you.
I mean that I didn't, I did not know about that.
What I, what I would say to thatyou didn't see it coming or
anything like that. What I what I have learned is
they are insecure and they are bullies and their ideology is
purely hateful and driven by, inmany cases, insecurity and fear.

(46:20):
But they're not always without alittle few clever tricks.
No, they have. They're clever.
They are clever. I mean, I would agree.
I think having people on the farleft and the far right, I would
say that in general the far right people are a lot wilier.
Yeah, they I mean there if you, I mean we won't go to a full

(46:41):
history lesson, but more just having a conversation with you.
If you saw some of the stuff that like Daily Stormer did in
the run up to Trump's 2016 election, like they were, they
were hacking into like servers in in university that would
print out swastikas on things and stuff like that, which is
like, oh, you'd think that that would hurt Trump because it
would associate with Nazism. But no, but it actually scares

(47:02):
people and lets people know, hey, we're here, we're coming
for you, whatever else. I mean, there were a million
stunts exactly like this, as Jared also knows.
And it what you told me doesn't surprise me.
I think what I'm more surprised by is the extent to which
they're fixated on Will Stancil,right, Because they're so again,
no question, something you know,we talked about in the opening,

(47:25):
it just you are have become likean avatar for everything that is
opposed to MAGA, right? And that and that MAGA sphere,
including some people who may even be Trump critical, who are
outright neo Nazis. But really, I mean, it's been
it's just like it's sort of likeyou have become like the amalgam
of all of us. It's all you're all of us are

(47:46):
now, Will Stancil, and they're attacking you.
Will Stancil. Which, which perhaps I mean, I,
I wanna, I wanna, I wanna ask you this, you know, on that
note, but maybe that is actuallythe, the, the correct response.
Of course, solidarity is always the right response to, to
injustice. And maybe that is the right
responses that we are become will Stancil, as a matter of

(48:09):
fact. But how, how you know for
people, 'cause it is, 'cause there's the the people who are
listening to this podcast include folks who may have
disagreed with you in the past. They may have been left of you
on some issue, right? I mean, I'm sure, I'm sure the
people that are obsessed with you on the far right, they're
probably going to find this one too.
Oh, they'll love this. They'll love.

(48:30):
This I'm sure there's socialist anarchists, all kinds of people,
and also liberals who support Elizabeth Warren in the There's
a lot of people on here. I'm sure all of those people
beyond Emily Yuccas, but all thepeople who are harassing you,
whether it's people with money and contributing to this and
encouraging, encouraging it and whatever.

(48:54):
How, how can they support you Like how, how, how can the
people who are listening to thissupport you in this one?
Because because it is a, it is a, a bullying campaign.
And there are undoubtedly, as I think you will agree, more
important things to worry about in this country right now than
will Stancil and will Stancil's mental health, right?

(49:14):
I'm sure knowing your politics, I know you're pretty fucking
worried and pissed about Alligator Alcatraz, right?
Just to pull something out of a hat there or like, and
everything else. But how?
How can people support you? Even just to broaden it up, I
mean, like you've been at the epicenter of this for so long.
Like, yeah, whether whether it'syou specifically or just other

(49:36):
people that get caught up in this stuff, like, what do you
wish other people were doing? Do you wish other people were
doing anything? And also if, if you know, God
forbid, like one of our listeners finds themselves in
the middle of that, do you have any advice, just like things
you've learned over the years that help you deal with it or
process it? Well, OK, I'm going to take the
second question first, which is that the, the way to deal with

(49:59):
it, in my opinion is you have torecognize that it is, it's like
you feel like you've had a braininjury while it's happening.
It it, it really highlights how much our self-image and our
mental universe is, is sort of composed of the how the way we

(50:19):
are seen by other people. And, and so when this is
happening, it is it, it eats your mental resources like
nothing else. I mean, it's like you, you,
there have been days, not many, but there have been days where I
just like had to sit on the couch and like, I could barely
focus on anything because it's just like the Internet was so
bad. And yet it stops, you know, in

(50:41):
the moment, you always think, oh, this is it.
I'm ruined forever. My life's over.
No one will ever see me as anything but this again.
Not true. You know, don't say, don't
think, don't do anything stupid,don't say anything stupid.
Don't don't crash out, don't flame out.
Just, you know, stick to your guns and and recognize it'll
pass. I have found actually, in my
experience, if you're saying something reasonable, something

(51:03):
not too crazy and you just keep repeating it, then eventually
people that this sort of wave blows the other way, people
you'll get people coming out. But actually he's right about
this. Maybe, you know, and then it
kind of swings back. That may not work for some
people. It's it can be that that period
before that happens can be pretty difficult with regards to
what I wish people would do. And honestly, the biggest thing

(51:24):
is just recognize, recognize in general how much your views of
people of issues of the world are being derived from what you
hear other people say not and not to say that that's
necessarily wrong because no oneknows everything about
everything is good to listen to people and take their take
their, you know, thoughts and advice and experiences into

(51:46):
account. But recognize that that also
creates a vulnerability in your thinking that if you are logged
onto the Internet, you see 1000 people repeating something that
you will probably that will start to seem very true to you.
It'll seem almost self evidentlytrue, but it may not be.
It may be that they're all seeing each other repeat it.
And I think that that process isbehind so much of this on the

(52:10):
left, on the right. One of the things that I feel,
you know, is very intensely clear when you're at the center
of this is you'll see people, there's just like this consensus
that something that you that yousomeone has said is absurd or,
you know, this person is worthy of mockery.
And it's like, I want to be like, you know, can you explain

(52:31):
why? And, and people can't, can't,
they don't really know why otherthan they're hearing from other
people. And so I think I think sort of
taking a step back, taking a step back and sort of trying,
can I think to this independently?
Do I actually agree with this oris it just sort of everyone I
know is saying it? I think that's the way to sort
of short circuit the cycle a little bit.
It's really interesting because you know, you can see this

(52:51):
pressure. I mean, when you're and I've
seen this, I've seen this peopledo with me, I've seen do with
other people, you see this pressure, even people who are
nominally not taking part in it,you can tell that they feel that
sort of consensus because, you know, I'll say something like
very reasonable Trump is bad. You know, we should, we should
not be air striking Venezuela. And people will say, you know, I

(53:15):
know Will Stancil's wrong about almost everything, but he's
right about this. I'm like, why'd you put that
first part in there? I mean, like it was unnecessary,
but it's like it's a it's a signal to their friends.
They're like, you know, it's their signal that they know,
they understand, you know, what the consensus is here.
And and you know, I think that so much of you know, this comes
out of that need to sort of wantto fit into the crowd and and

(53:36):
the the social media intensifiesthat.
It's high school, but social media intensifies it a
thousandfold. Will any opinions on the new
Taylor Swift album? I haven't listened to it,
actually. I've had people play clips of
it. I have a lot of friends who are
Taylor Swift fans, but I myself am, you know, agnostic
basically. You're agnostic.
Well, what's the best concert you've been to like?

(53:56):
What kind of music are you into?Because posting through it is a
music podcast that occasionally focuses on extremism and stuff.
So ultimately, I'm ultimately I am really into, you know, I grew
up in, you know, early 2000s. So I am quintessentially indie,
sadly type stuff, you know, think bright eyes, love, love,
love that stuff. I'm best That's the music to

(54:19):
this. Like speaks to me recently,
though probably is a sort of midlife crisis in response to
the second Trump administration.I've gotten really going into
going into like big EDM shows mostly because it's like it's a
place where no one's ever going to recognize me because there's
just one raver that always knowsme and I'm like, oh God, but.
Most, most of the people are tripping their nuts off.

(54:39):
So they look at your face and it's like melting.
And they're like, I don't know who.
Who could that be? You never know, someone might be
tripping balls and then run intorun into Will Stancil and
hallucinate about it. And, you know, it's a giant
crowd. You're very anonymous.
And you just kind of like, it's just kind of sensory like
onslaught. And it's great for it's great to
refer to, you know, making you not think about Donald Trump

(55:00):
being president. What kind of EDM shows are you
going to what? What have you seen lately?
I went to EDC this year, so I saw pretty much everybody, but
I'm most recent. I'm going to What is the most
recent thing I went to? Oh, I went to crank that which
is 0. Yeah, yeah, dude.

(55:24):
I'm going to Chris Lake and I'm trying to go to Maupe this, but
he's right. After Christmas I may not be
able to do it. I went to see on the 25th
Autecker and they played in, it was a Brooklyn Steel and they
turn all the lights out. There's pitch black and there's
nothing. And everybody just stands there

(55:47):
and there's just, they just, thevolume is so loud with like
break beats and like scrambled noise and it just goes on for
three hours and and then it ends.
I I, I was like, I, I at midway through, I was like, I'm going
to, I need you to start going back to church.
Yeah. He's honestly, I don't even know
if I particularly enjoy it. I mean, I enjoy some parts, some

(56:09):
shows I've enjoyed, but there's some, there's something about
the experience that is, that is,you know, again, I maybe it's
just a midlife crisis, but it's,it's a nice break from
everything else. I I got another weird question
here, so I I take it you're not straight edge?
No. OK, so you're drunk, stoned or

(56:30):
drunk and stoned. You come back in the apartment
or the house, whatever. It's 1:45 in the morning.
You just saw a crank that you'recovered in sweat, you know.
What are you? What are you eating before you
pass out? Like what?
What is where are you going? To the kitchen?
Like what's, what's, what are you doing?
You're starving. You haven't eaten since 6:30.

(56:52):
Well, so First off, I'm going tosay I don't go to bed at 1:45.
One of the things about me is that I don't sleep very much.
I'm a, I'm a short sleeper. I guess I only need about four
hours of sleep at night. So 145 would be a very early
night for me, but yeah, I'm, I'mcoming home.
I mean, honestly, the thing I'm,I, I've been doing recently, if
I'm, is, is I just ordered some tacos.

(57:13):
I there's a place near me that has amazing pastor tacos that
have really changed my opinion of pastor tacos overall and I
just want to eat them all the time so I'll probably that.
Must be a pretty fucking good Taco.
Also 4 hours a night is some real poster mindset.
You are, you are. That's why they're all focused

(57:33):
on you. You are the anti Elon Musk.
You're like our answer to Elon Musk, I think because he's also
like a four hours per night. I just, I always thought there
was something wrong. I mean, there probably is
something wrong with me, but butyou know, I've spent a lot, I've
spent many years in my life trying to make myself sleep more
because I was like, there must, you know, I must be like
suffering some kind of negative consequence from this.
But I just became apparent aftera while that it was pointless,

(57:54):
that I should just I just I justhow much others slept so.
When, when I, when I sleep less than six hours or fewer than
six, I, I just will sporadicallystart crying throughout the day
like I was just like, something will occur to me.
I'll just remember my sister's birth and I'll just start crying
like I I need, I need it hours. Otherwise I'm a mess.

(58:17):
Yeah, I know. I just I don't need sleep.
So we'll back to the topic at hand.
So we've been talking about how people are obsessed with you, a
lot of it like this. The Will Stancil cartoon is
pretty fucking weird but also goofy in a lot of ways.
I mean, as the series goes on, Emily Yuccas is I think I said

(58:43):
that earlier and neo Nazi and like quite a literal
interpretation of that like. I think she'd be sad if you said
she wasn't. Yeah, it should be insulted.
If I was like, she's a far rightconservative, she'd be like, hey
now, hey. No, no, I mean she's very proud
of being a Nazi. But there's like a level of that
where it's like it's almost comical of like just how
ridiculous and hateful it is. But there's also like a a vein

(59:08):
of commentary about you that I've seen some people post.
I'm thinking we call him on the show Captive Dipshit 77, the
captive dreamer guy. What I forget what his real name
is. Doesn't matter.
He's a loser, but I've seen him post about you saying that you
want to kill people, you should be in on terrorist watch list,

(59:29):
that sort of thing. It's totally wild to me,
especially just given how this conversation's been going and
how you've talked about your ownpolitical beliefs, that
especially if we think about who's running the administration
right now and that people like this guy are in the
administration. Surely looking at this, surely,

(59:52):
you know, the people running theDHS account, for example, are
like in the same milieu of X nowlike that.
That's a little bit more sinister.
And I, I just wonder what you think about that.
It feels very, you know, it almost, it also seems like
comical to me in a different way, but especially given how

(01:00:15):
the administration's talking about needing to go after the
quote UN quote radical left or whatever, you know?
That seems almost like they're trying to get the government to
come after you, like they're trying to hurt you by claiming
this. So I am actually in a number of
the group chats of these people because it's very funny.
They think it's very funny to invite me.

(01:00:35):
And on on Twitter, if you invitesomeone to a group chat and they
don't accept, you can read the group chat.
So there's many like these standing invites that are months
or even years old. And so I can sort of read the
commentary be, you know, about me sometimes and I don't not
that I sit there and read it allday because they're they're
non-stop. And you know, I have plans send
and you see two camps and essentially there's people in
there. There's people who are who are

(01:00:55):
kind of like I would describe this kind of goofier in a way.
I mean, certainly the cartoon comes out of that vein.
And there's people who I would describe as harmless sociopaths
who want to hurt people and killpeople and who want to hurt
people for fun, want to hurt people of pleasure.
Captive dreamer. That guy.
He is the worst of the worst. He is the worst of that bunch.
He is he. By the way, talk about insecure.
That guy is is beyond, you know,that guy's irredeemable.

(01:01:18):
I I've. Seen his, I've seen his selfies
like. Yeah, I've seen I've seen his
forehead. He also, but I will say that
that I mean I'm one of the proud.
One of the things I'm proud of is I was a key player and figure
out who he was. Someone actually told gave me
his identity and I passed. It on I.
Passed it on to Stephen Marcelli, who who wrote about it
and, like, confirmed it and found more details.

(01:01:38):
But yeah, I was, I, I despise that man.
But yeah, he, I mean, some people really want to hurt
people. Some people really want to hurt
people. Yeah.
I mean, it's a little scary. And I would say the thing that's
serious to me most is not the government.
Like, I I've challenged them. And I say, hey, I'll say it
again. If they want to come arrest me
for being a critic of the Trump administration and for hating
Nazis, come arrest me. You know, where I live, you
know, I'm not hard to find. Go come, come, cough me and

(01:02:00):
we'll fight this out in court. We'll see how that goes for you.
The thing that scares me is, youknow, this sort of the what it
describes, you know, just just just random violence.
I'm afraid that you know, they have they one of the things that
they have done, they've taken itdoing is tweeting out my
address, my phone number captivedreamer tweeted out and he said
this is will Stansels actual address.
It sure be it terrible someone went there and something

(01:02:22):
happened to him and that's something I have no control
over. All you can really do is try and
sort of keep, you know, kind of kind of keep your cool and just
just not panic. I got woken up one time when
this happened was after Charlie Kerik's shooting.
They tried to make out like I had mocked his death, which I
had not done. I got I got woken up by calls
from people saying I got a call saying them and say I'm standing
outside your house. Come outside and meet me.

(01:02:43):
Jesus Christ, I had no idea who I.
Was I was going to ask if you had gotten death threats, but
this is kind of like in that. Yeah, I have gotten death
threats. I've gotten death threats on the
left and the right, actually. One, in fact, one of the guys
who threatened me on the left was the guy who shot up several
people at the American was it? In DC.
Yeah, that guys. Last was it was some like

(01:03:04):
conference gala type thing but he shot the staffers from the
Israeli embassy. Yeah, that's right.
That's right. I remember this now.
Yes, absolutely. There's a lot has happened this
year. His Last Post on Blue Sky was a
death threat directed at me and he got banned from Twitter
because he was making death threats to me and I reported
them. Holy shit dude.
So so I have gotten death threats.
I was like, what? What correlation do you have

(01:03:26):
between? I mean, he, he targeted Zionist,
right? Like that was his target in, in,
in, in what? What do you have to do with
that? I don't understand why he was
focused on you. They want the cathartic thrill
of committing political violence.
And I'm everyone's favorite target.
You know, I don't know the, I mean, regardless, that's what

(01:03:46):
scares me is that someone will just walk.
Some crazy person will just walkup.
The with that said, there's not much I can do about it, and I
kind of assume that the odds of it are relatively low.
You know, certainly someone calls and says they're outside
my house, I'm going to do the sensible thing and call the
police and not go outside. Turns out there was no one
there. Of course, that to me is a lot

(01:04:07):
scarier than the government. I'm stuffed.
Even though the government couldobviously really mess up my
life. I'm like, I will fight them.
I can, I can fight them. Obviously some guy walks up the
gun, There's less you can do. I would imagine that that fear
or the threat goes up because ofthis stupid will Stancil show
because now, you know, I mean, the more people who is just, you
know, turn you into a literal cartoon, right and rob your

(01:04:32):
humanity, the more likely they are like a psychotic person is
likely to think about you and place you in their target in
their mind where they could put basically anything.
You mentioned the political you know, I mean the thrill of
committing political violence. Yeah, I'm gonna I'm gonna ask a
a strategic, a weird strategic question for you.

(01:04:53):
Like I got another weird question because actually
something on my mind. So I figured like, let's see
what Will has to say about this.So I don't know if you saw this
Harper's article about gooning about, I'm not ask, I'm not
going to ask you about masturbation, pro or pro.
Pro or con? No.
No, no, no. I.
Just don't know what the articleis.
I don't I saw like one sense about.

(01:05:14):
I was like, that is something I might I would be happier never
interacting with or even comprehending.
Well, well, that's the question.That's the question.
So Nick Fuentes spoke to Tucker Carlson recently.
I'm sure you've seen that as a politically engaged person.
It's like the the topic on the right right now.
And, and thank God, Jared, that we are avoiding that at this
moment. I'm, I am done talking about

(01:05:35):
Nick Fuentes for a little bit. But Fuentes goes off a little
bit about how, you know, men, young men are like, you know,
because of pornography or they're having physical effects
and mental effects. This is all true stuff.
I think for the most part. He also says some transphobic
things and whatever else. And then there's some homophobic
things, of course, as you're dealing with, but just talks

(01:05:56):
about how men are not connectingwith women and they're just, you
know, living in this in in this world.
I thought I was like, I thought like, you know, this does
explain to some degree why so, so many young men, you know,
white young men or whatever are attracted to Nick Fuentes.
Is he? He is talking about this thing
that isn't really being talked about, that these young men are

(01:06:17):
kind of isolated to some degree and kind of fixated on porn and
not connecting with women, not connecting.
Is there a rhetoric that people in the Democratic Party or in
the left or in general can do tolike kind of target some of
these people that could maybe, you know, speak to them directly
and and try to change some of that stuff?

(01:06:38):
And I'm not talking about Joe Rogan on the left, but just like
talking about their lives, theirfeelings of, of social
alienation. Do you have any idea of like how
can we reach the gooners? Yeah, and I don't have I I mean,
I remember way back years ago, before any before Donald Trump
was a thing running into the like the the neat, you know, the

(01:07:02):
Neets, yeah, on some forum. And it was this weird subculture
there become the in cells and they became and then became like
a political force. And so to some extent I just
wonder if these guys have just always been kind of floating
around and just kind of now theyhave now they're able to talk to
each other and and form into political formations.
With that said, I don't know if I have a perfect solution with
contacting, but I have some. So one of the things is so for

(01:07:24):
instance, when I have read thesechats that these people, you
know, nominally focused on the intermissions of chats or just
literally focused on me, it's soclear that these people, like a
lot of them, it's just like a social experience.
They like being in there. These are they consider each
other this their friends. You know, there's drama and
people get kicked out and they get sad because they're kicked

(01:07:44):
out and you know, and they're like, they want to go back and
see their friends. I've actually, there've been a
couple cases and one of the guysis certainly going to hear this
and you know, I'm talking about them.
There's a couple cases where guys have reached out to me who
are in these chats and who I've become to sort of parasocial
fixation for these chats. And so I was like figuring a
mental universe and you're like,why don't we reach out and you
know, a couple of reach out and said, you seem like a nice guy.
Like actually, you know, a different world.
Maybe we could have been friends.

(01:08:06):
And I said, well, you know, maybe don't hang out with these
people and express these views. And you could be friends with me
or people like me. And there's, there's at least
one instance where I kept talking to the guy and he seems
to have stepped back from it some.
He's still kind of friendly withsome people in that universe.
But he's still, you know, he's still like, we talk, we chat and
we have friendly chats. And he's like very, you know,
and he's always, he's actually very like, for instance, I went
on a trip to El Salvador, a lot of places recently and I wasn't,

(01:08:29):
I didn't tweet for like 5 days because I didn't want to like,
draw attention to the fact that I was in El Salvador just for
basic safety reasons. And he reached out and said, you
know, are you OK? Is everything all right?
He was like worry. I mean, like literally I had
good, I had friends here in Minnesota.
They didn't notice I was gone. And they like, no, you know,
it's for them. It was like, I think that the
wine for some of these people, it is, you know, between, you

(01:08:52):
know, the obsessive, obsessive hate and just wanting a social
connection is kind of blurry. And I think that if you can find
ways to make people feel like they're in, you know, part of a
of a social, you know, circle, then you might be able to, you
know, maybe slowly kind of deprogram some folks.
I mean, ultimately people are just a lot of people are just

(01:09:14):
lonely and they just want, they want to feel like they're
connected to someone. And, and like, a lot of that
just involves just like, I mean,it's like, I don't talk about
pop, you know, like, it's like, like, I think the thing, for
instance, with this one guy, it like he notices that like, I
like video games and he likes video games.
And so, you know, he's like, he's like, you ever want to play
Fortnite? And I don't really play Fortnite
anymore, but I have, and, you know, and that was like, that

(01:09:37):
point was enough to just sort oflike, almost like thaw it out a
little bit. And so I, I just, you know, I, I
don't know, I, I, I, maybe I'm, maybe I'm just like a naive, you
know, you know, too naive about people.
But on some level, like, except,except for the very hardened
sociopaths like Captain Framer, who I think just enjoy hurting

(01:09:59):
people for fun, who I think are just really, you know, and you
just want to inflict pleasure orpain for their own pleasure, I
think. Sadists.
Yeah, they're sadists. I think that there are a lot of
people in these groups who are just like essentially lonely
kids looking for a community. Yeah.
I think I just probably just restated restated what you've
said without any additional. No, you didn't notice, but I

(01:10:20):
appreciate it was really heartfelt because it also
brought it back to your, you know, the overall questions
we're trying to answer here. Looking at the clock here, we've
had you for a little while, WillI think maybe just rapid fire we
can throw a few more of our weird questions for you in the
mix. Mind for you, a lot of people
out there hate read your social media feed.

(01:10:44):
But who do you hate read? I don't really hate read anyone
like I don't, I don't know. I don't really.
So I would say that what I do onsocial media is I, I tried very
hard. I follow a few low number of
people because I think if you have 2000 people, it's just too
much. It's overwhelming.
And then I don't really unfollowor block anyone.

(01:11:05):
And so over time, for instance, there are people who I followed
initially because they'd said something I thought was smart.
And then as they got more exposed to them, they'd be like,
they'd show up all the time. I'd be like, you know, so like
back on Twitter, Iglesias and Josh Barro.
I mean, like starting up, just like having, you know, like Josh
Barro drove me totally nuts. But it wasn't really that I was
hate reading. It was just like, I just felt
like that if you adjust your feed to match your views, you're

(01:11:29):
putting yourself into almost like a, a bubble.
And that's important to just, you know, not to not allow
yourself to be captured by your feed like that.
I, I don't know why I came into this with, but I feel like Will
Stansel is a Christ like poster who has been like, I'm hearing
this, like he doesn't hate read.I have like 4 or five like daily

(01:11:49):
hate reads. He's like, Will is just like,
you know, he's just, he's, he's,he's, he's dying for our sins.
I just want to be honest, like he's.
I don't want to like I, I have to say he's.
It's not, it's less bad. It's just, it's just, there's
like a lot of, I don't know, I mean, I, I, I don't want to be
mad all the time. Like it's like unpleasant.

(01:12:12):
All right, I got one for you. I got AI.
Got a rapid fire one. OK, If you had to sit in an air,
which Trump administration official would you least want to
sit next to on an airplane? Least, least.
Least and that and that is like,you know, factoring in potential
haliotosis, you know, just just just just oiliness.

(01:12:35):
What are like who, who is who isthe one where it's like, I got
five hours and I'm stuck with this guy and I don't want it to
be this Trump administration official.
I mean, I think it's really hard.
I mean, this is the obvious answer, but the worst person in
America outside of Donald Trump is probably Stephen Miller.
Like, yeah, I don't, I don't know.

(01:12:58):
We say that. We say that on this show a lot.
Maybe the most evil man in America.
No, he's he is. I mean he's literally like a neo
Nazi in my opinion. And then I mean JD Vance is JD
Vance is like makes my skin crawl because he is such he is.
He just looks at you and he justlies.
And Jimmy knows how, like everything JD Vance does winds
up becoming like some sort of like Flashpoint.

(01:13:22):
It's like he goes to hug Erica Kirk and there's like a million
memes about how he's trying, howhe's sleeping with, he can't do
anything without turning into like some sort of thing.
It's just there's something about him that just, I think
brings that out in people. So we got Stephen Miller with
Understudy. Well, it's like you got to pick

(01:13:42):
one. That's the thing, I.
Mean basically anyone in the Stephen Miller room down through
DHS, I think is probably I mean DHS is just it's just the hub of
all all the stuff I I'm trying to think about.
I mean, the, the, Oh my God, theone guy, the treasury looks like
a looks like the, the energy vampire from What We Do in the
Shadows, and I'm blanking on hisname right now.

(01:14:03):
Best it's best. It's best.
It's the oh, yeah, yeah, there'slike there's one that's like
always trying to say it's not asbad as it looks.
And there's one that's always just like Donald.
Trump vampire he. Does he?
Does He looks just like him, he talks like him.
He's always got this little smile on his face as he says the
most inane stuff and you just want to throw something at him.
I'm not, we're saying I'm not violent here, but I definitely
want to throw something at that,man.

(01:14:24):
There's so many. I mean, it's the thing.
The first Trump administration, there were like a couple people
here and there who you're just like, yeah, you know, like Rex
Tillerson. Like, I don't know, I could
probably have a conversation with Rex Tillerson even, I hate
to say because he's obviously a die hard racist, but I grew up
in the South and I bet you that I could sit in a room with Jeff
Sessions and have a polite conversation for an hour, you
know, like, but like, no one in round two, no one in Round 2 has

(01:14:48):
a single redeeming virtue at all.
Not a one. There's not a single person.
Oh RFKI. Bet that guy smells terrible.
Well, Olivia Nuzzi never had to face that because she only did
everything, whatever she did it with FaceTime.
So sorry for that. This is the second podcast in a
row with shots fired at Olivia Nuzzi.
We're going to get in trouble, man.

(01:15:10):
Last question for you, Will. This is a big one.
Is it possible that the only wayto defeat a Nazi AI generated
Will Stancil cartoon is with your own bigger, stronger
cartoon that's powerful enough to defeat it?
Have you considered this? I have, I have not considered

(01:15:32):
that. Yeah.
So I think career change. Yeah.
No, I, I think, I think that I, I literally have no idea.
I have to say I have no idea. As you said earlier, it feels
like this is kind of an escalation.
And for a while I thought that the way this was all going to go
is I was just going to be there's going to be some memes
about me on the Internet. At this point, I have no idea

(01:15:54):
where this goes. Maybe they maybe I mean, someone
said, you know, either you're I can't remember what it was or
some right wing figure was like,I'm just afraid that you're
going to give this guy like actual political power by making
him into like this, you know, meme figure.
And I figure that, you know, either I I don't know, I don't
know what happens. Maybe they kill me.

(01:16:15):
Maybe. They maybe they kill you or
maybe this ends up with like youbecoming the president of the
United States. I.
Was going to say it's that domino meme where it's like it
says like the first thing is like bullying will Stancil, will
Stancil show and then it's like the last thing is like president
will Stancil. The the I will tell you how this

(01:16:36):
started. No one knows, but I know Emily
Yuccas became fixated on me about a year and a few months
ago. I know because I got to add to
the group chat and it was like they made so many memes and
jokes about me. I think it was because I had
been fighting with Steve Saylor about race science, being wrong,
whatever, and what happened. I could see it happen in real

(01:17:00):
time in their private chats as they focus on me as a target of
ridicule. It's like I became this social
figure in their social universe and then it was like they
couldn't they couldn't detach intheir heads the like affection
from the like contempt. And there are people in this
universe who, like I've seen write really graphic sexual

(01:17:23):
fantasies about me. They it is like it.
The lines have gotten to get so when when you focus fixate on
someone as a parasocial thing that much like the line between,
you know, liking them and hatingthem becomes really blurry.
And I I know it sounds completely crazy, but I saw it
happen. No, it's not crazy.

(01:17:44):
I've seen the memes. I've seen there's like it, it,
it what? What they're doing to you is so
bizarre that it doesn't surpriseme that they're also sexualizing
you. Yeah, they come, they come into
your replies with the like from the cartoon.
It do be like that Mister Stansel thing, which obviously
has like a racist undertone to it.
But if, if we're going past that, I mean they're rolling up

(01:18:07):
in your replies saying I they really they, they're, they're
basically begging for your attention.
They're saying please will please reply to me.
Please look at me. They get so excited.
I mean, one of the occasionally people have done do be like
that. There have been a couple that
were funny. Someone did it blew be like that
and was like in the style of Picasso's blue period.
And I was like, OK, it's kind ofthere's something kind of funny
about that. And there's one there someone

(01:18:28):
did a did A1 in it. Like it was a system of a down
style song. That was, I was like actually
just kind of slabs and and they were so excited that I was like,
yes, he likes it, you know, and I was like, guys, do you
remember you're supposed to hateme.
You know, there's it's a it's just kind of goes to how the
Internet is, is just cooking everyone's brain.
Basically no one understands like even the interactions

(01:18:50):
they're having anymore. Well, I want to say something
before we go, which is fuck Steve Saylor.
I just want to say that because,like, that was a thing.
And I'm glad that you had, you know, I, I, I didn't know you
were out there. I, I, like, I did not know that
about your game, Sir. I did not know you were out
debunking Steve Saylor, because fuck that guy.
That's where the Nazi obsession with me started is because I

(01:19:12):
started saying in 2020 into 2023, I was like these race
science people are getting way too much mainstream attention
right now. Steve Saylor said IO guy on
Twitter who Elon star and I said, why won't people jump on
Elon when he shares anti-Semiticstuff?
But when he shares stuff that's just like, you know, about the
genetic inferiority of black people, everyone just no one
even writes about. There were no news stories about

(01:19:33):
it. And so I started arguing with
Steve Saylor. And I think they expected me.
You know, they all jumped on me and they think they expected me
to stop and go away. And when I did not, then I
that's where it really kicked off of these people.
Well, Jared will say goodbye, but I'm my goodbye is this,
which is I'm sure. I did not know that about your
game, ABI. You know, I'm sure I was shitty

(01:19:53):
to you online sometime at some point, I mean, or at least rude,
Probably not shitty, but I wouldnot be shitty to somebody who
is. I would probably I might have
been rude, curt or something. He might have quote tweeted me,
but I'm like and so I'm sorry about that.
And and the last thing is all right, next time I'm in your
city. You and I are we're we're we're

(01:20:15):
going to a rave and and we are getting tacos at not 145 but
345. Excellent.
Love it since I've learned that you don't sleep.
I'm going to tell you everyone who's ever been mean to me.
One nice thing about being mean to me in particular is that I
promise you I don't remember because a lot of people are and
I cannot, I cannot remember anything anyone specifically

(01:20:37):
said about me at any point. So you're all you're good.
We'll stay. And so thanks for joining,
posting through it. We'll put a link down to your
social media profiles if folks want to go say something nice to
Will for a change, you know, break up the Nazi cartoons.
Yeah. Or just.
Or just disagree with them and keep arguing with them.

(01:20:58):
Yeah, just come in. Just come in here.
Guns glazing. That's fine.
And. Will or not Will or someone else
when you see these type of people ganging up on somebody,
we got to not only show solidarity, but also step up and
and say like go fuck off becauseyou know these these these
people are they're cowards and it could be you next, quite

(01:21:23):
frankly. So you need to be thinking with
that attitude, man, that was that.
That was honestly that was really eye opening for me.
I don't know because I know I never even talked to this guy
before. Yeah, I didn't, I didn't know

(01:21:45):
what to expect going in. And I think we've both, like,
you know, traded jabs with him in the replies at some point in
our posting. Careers yeah, I I I got to say
one one thing that Will said that really stood out to me and
kind of really moved me was he basically said that the people

(01:22:06):
who are doing this to me live infear of someone doing it to
them, which to me was just like,wow, you I feel like I unlocked
the central thing about cyberbullying or just like
online behaviour, right. It said so much.

(01:22:27):
The other thing I would say thatpeople can't see well, we're an
audio podcast, but there. But there's something so very
sweet about the guy and in the context, in the context of
seeing him, you know, just sitting there in a T-shirt with
like a Vans T-shirt, just talking to us from his living
room about being bullied and being turned into like this
character that gets raped by robots by, by the radical right.

(01:22:50):
It just, it was a very surreal and warm experience for me.
And I think it, I don't know, I just feel like a lot more, I
feel changed, Jared. I feel changed about the way I
look at online behavior. It's like going to church, man.
Yeah, so there's a chance this episode brought in some people

(01:23:11):
to this show that maybe don't listen to our show.
Haven't heard of our show before.
If you liked what you heard, we have a Patreon.
I would be remiss not to plug it. patreon.com/posting through
it. That's there's going to be a
link down in the description to that.
In addition to our weekly episodes, we do bonus ones every

(01:23:32):
week. So if you liked what you heard
and you want more of it, go check us out there.
Yeah. And Jared, I have some news,
which is that my first book, Strange People on the Hill,
which I don't know, you can readabout it.
We'll put the link in the description.
But it's very close. I put very close to my heart.
I worked very hard on this and. I'm you put everything into

(01:23:54):
that. I was talking to you through the
whole thing. Man, that was a Libra of love.
It's not totally unrelated to the events of this podcast also
because everybody involved in this book goes through a very
rough time both online and off because of the the nature of the
of politics nowadays. But if you want to pre-order it,
you got 20% off with the promo code strange 20 capital STRANGE

(01:24:22):
20 and I'll give you the link inthe description.
Strange people on the hill come in April 7th.
I think that's going to do us for this week.
We'll see you next week, and forPatreon subscribers, we'll see
you Thursday. Yeah, looking forward to see you
on Thursday. Take care guys.

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