May 28, 2025 • 30 mins
In this episode of PPC Live The Podcast, host Anu interviews Kat Sale, co-founder of House of Performance, about a catastrophic client experience that serves as a cautionary tale for agency professionals. Kat shares how a gifting company client spent £40,000 in just three days with zero sales, despite her team's explicit warnings against their aggressive launch strategy. The situation escalated when the client refused to pay £12,500 in consultancy fees, forcing Kat to write off the loss and end the relationship.
Key takeaway discussed:
Key Takeaways
- "Eat the dog food" - Always test and understand your client's products before marketing them
- Red flags to avoid: Clients who speak poorly about their own team, have churned through multiple agencies quickly, or consistently ignore expert advice
- Don't launch on Fridays unless you'll monitor campaigns over the weekend
- Start conservative: Begin with exact match keywords and modest budgets, then scale based on performance
- Cut losses quickly - Don't waste time chasing bad debts or difficult clients; focus energy on good relationships
- Document everything - Keep clear records of advice given when clients ignore recommendations
- Don't take failures personally - Sometimes clients aren't ready to listen, and that's not your fault
- Be transparent with mistakes - Clients appreciate honesty; cover-ups destroy trust
- Use AI as a tool, not a crutch - Maintain strategic thinking and creativity rather than relying completely on AI
- Create psychological safety - Leaders should share their own failures to normalise learning from mistakes
- Know when to walk away - Some clients aren't worth the stress and damage to your business
- Maintain perspective - "We're not heart surgeons, it's just advertising" - don't let work stress destroy your mental health
00:00 Introduction
01:31 Kat Sale's Background
02:48 The Concept of 'Eating the Dog Food'
04:43 Major Business Failure and Learnings
22:43 Discussion on AI in Digital Marketing
28:03 Conclusion and Where to Find Kat Sale
Follow Kat on LinkedIn
Book a coaching call with Anu
PPC Live The Podcast (formerly PPCChat Roundup) features weekly conversations with paid search experts sharing their experiences, challenges, and triumphs in the ever-changing digital marketing landscape.
The next PPC Live event is on June 26th in Leeds, UK
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:06):
Hello and welcome to PPC Live, the podcast formerly the PPC
Chat Roundup. My name is Anu, the founder of
PPC Live. And if you are used to hearing
advice from PPC experts about how to ensure that we are
keeping up with the ever changing landscape, don't worry,
you are still in the right place.
But instead of me relaying what the PPC experts are saying, I'm
(00:27):
going to be bringing the PPC experts to you.
Every week I'm going to be speaking to a different PPC
expert about their biggest F up,but not just that, also how
they've turned things around, what learnings they've taken out
from it. We're going to be sharing about
disappointments, who has been supportive along the way, what
has surprised them and much more.
(00:50):
Today we have the fantastic Cat Sale, who alongside with her
agency House of Performance, have been a fantastic supporter
of PPC Live and has sponsored some past events.
We're going to be talking about a past field that she
experienced with a client, advice that she gave that wasn't
listened to, what the outcome ofthat was and just how it has
just made her think about trusting herself more, being
(01:14):
more aware of red flags when shesees them and calling them out.
So yeah, let's hear more from Kat.
Hello Kat, Welcome to PPC Live, the podcast.
Hi, thanks for having me. It's a delight.
So for those who don't know, CatSail is the Co founder of House
(01:35):
of Performance, a brilliant supporter of PPC Live.
They were one of the first supporters and sponsor us.
They're AUK based performance marketing consultancy that
specialises in helping ambitiousbrands maximise their return on
investment through paid media channels such as PPC, paid
social display and remarketing campaigns.
(01:56):
Now, beyond her consultancy work, Kat is an active thought
leader in the performance marketing space, especially on
LinkedIn, and she has shared herexpertise on platforms like the
Marketing Meet Up where she discussed strategies for
successful PPC campaigns, emphasising the importance of
understanding one's product deeply in quotation marks.
(02:18):
Eat the dog food. That is a phrase that she's used
on multiple occasions. Pat also has appeared on the PPC
Mastery podcast, where she discussed building an agency
that people enjoy working at, highlighting the importance of
company culture and adaptabilityin today's marketing landscape.
What she likes to do for fun obstacle courses, she says, and
(02:40):
we should be seeing her on the Gladiators very soon.
She also has two boys who keep her very, very busy.
I've made her laugh. But yeah, let's go back to that
phrase. Cat eat the dog food.
What is that about? Though a long time ago a mentor
taught me this phrase and it basically means if you're going
(03:00):
to work with a client or on a specific business, you need to
eat the dog food, AKA test the product, do the thing that they
sell, understand it inside out. So for example, we recently
started working with biscuit tears, so that's an easy one.
They sell luxury biscuits. So the first thing I did was
went on their website and ordered some biscuits to each to
(03:23):
test, you know? OK.
Yeah, yeah. So really actually experience
the product. Try try as much as.
You have to. How can you market something
properly if you don't fully? Yeah, exactly.
Yeah. Yes, I think that actually
reminds me of of a friend, this lady called Lesion who she wrote
an article recently about being curious.
(03:44):
Being curious is your biggest, you know, superpower about being
a marketer. And because she wanted to, she
was trying to gain a client who owned yachts.
She actually took put herself through a training to learn how
to operate a yacht. And I was like what?
How that is properly switching the dog food that.
(04:05):
Yeah, exactly. I think it's so important and
it's so overlooked. So yeah, as much as we, as much
as we realistically can, we keepthe dog food.
Absolutely. And yeah, thank you for taking
time out of your holiday. Looks like you're having a a
great time. For those who are just listening
to this, this, I'm just kidding with Cat, she is that she is in
(04:26):
the middle of a work day, but she's very much taken advantage
of the brilliant weather we're having here in the UK, which
doesn't happen often. So I totally empathise with her
that yeah, as much as you can dosome working in the sun.
Take it, take it. Why not?
Why not? All right, love it.
OK, let's not keep our listenerswaiting much longer.
(04:48):
They you know, we know what are these podcasts about?
We're talking about F UPS with experience, learnings we've had
from it, how we've we've managedto still lead a life of success,
lead a carrier of success despite this issue.
So, Cat, what do you want to share with us today?
I have so many. So I want to talk about when the
(05:12):
business was quite new house performance only been going a
year and a bit and we started working with a gifting company
that did gift experiences and physical gifts and we were
consulting with them. And the long and short of it was
they wanted to launch or one of their peaks which was Father's
Day and their team spent £40,000with 0 sales.
(05:36):
That's the main. Up.
We then didn't get our contract paid so we lost 12,500 in fees
and the contract ended. It was bad, a lot of learnings.
Wow. Yeah, yeah, that's a, that's
already a big, a big heavy like £40,000 was spent over what
(05:59):
period of time? Three days.
Over 3 days. Oh, wow.
OK, yeah, all right. Yeah, let's, let's.
I promise more than my advice. I promise I can explain.
OK, right, get to the. Let's get to the explanation of
it. Let's get to the meat of it.
What's what caused it? What caused this issue?
(06:20):
Though the client, the business was run very hands on by
founder, CEO, and he very much wanted to go big for Father's
Day. He had two brands.
One was sort of tried and testedon Father's Day, a secondary
brand. They had not been in.
This is all in PPC by the way. They'd not been in the auction
(06:41):
for Father's Day for this brand and he wanted to go big on it.
So he said, right, help my team learn how to build campaigns and
start entering the auction for all things Father's Day gifting.
So we taught them how to build apains.
We taught them how to upload them into interface a very new
junior team as well. And then it was the IT was a
(07:02):
Friday about two, maybe 3 weeks before Father's Day, I think 3
weeks. And we said don't launch on a
Friday unless you're going to check it on a Saturday.
Never. No, no, no CEO said we need to
go live. OK, the next thing was we
wouldn't recommend you launch itin broad match.
We recommend you launch it in exact and if it performs well,
(07:22):
we'll then add some fries and then we'll add some broad if
it's good. Ah, broad match will be fine.
We're going to launch in broad match.
OK, up to you. It's your your account.
Start with a conservative budgetbecause you know, we don't know
how it's going to perform. Now we're going to put 500 a day
on all of these campaigns. They've loads of campaigns
they've built out. Oh my God, my.
(07:46):
Favourite disaster? But we were running it, we were
consulting, right? Because half of what we do is
consulting and guiding others. So all we could do is send an
e-mail explaining what we'd already said.
These are the risks, go for it. So we did and they did, and off
we went on the weekend. Try not to worry about it.
(08:07):
I didn't log in at the weekend because I'm really anti that.
Unless you have to, like I'm very anti, it's not my account.
And then on the Monday 9:00, my phone rings and it's the CEO and
he says you spent £40,000 and wehaven't had one sale.
And I was like, well we didn't and we advised all of this, but
(08:27):
you kind of made them and you put the pressure on and yeah, it
was bad. It's really bad.
That is, that is really annoying.
I think there's there's a lessonto be learn of.
Like I don't even think the mistake was the spend.
The mistake was maybe the clientchoice because you.
Know. A client that would is not going
(08:49):
to listen to you, a client that is just not paying attention to
to anything that you're saying, you know, yeah, that's and which
which happens because you don't we you never know who you're
going to work with until it begins.
And then you're like, oh, OK, but you know, mistake.
Let's let's Were there any signsbefore like this campaign, that
(09:12):
they were such a client? Yeah, there was a little bit.
So when we went in, we had a couple of meetings, you know, a
pitch stage and the CEO would talk really badly about his
team. And I think that's a flag sign
because if they're your team, you should back them and you
should rate them and build especially to an external
(09:33):
company. We're, we're just a consultancy.
So that was in hindsight, that was a flag.
We didn't really pay attention to it at the time, but that is a
flag. I think if you're, if you don't
back your own team, you're certainly not going to back us,
are you? Because we're external and he
was very pushy with, you know, we need this.
(09:55):
But we, I've had clients like that before, but not obviously
not with the same outcome. So I wouldn't say there's any
other major flags. That was OK, all right.
And So what was your first reaction?
You get this call from this kindyou're like and that 9:00 AM
morning. What was your?
What was your instinct? You know?
(10:16):
To do. Say.
So I said, well, let me go and have a look for what's happened
and come back to you with like my diagnosis of that.
You know, I sort of already knowI was like, I'm going to go and
have a look and really see it. So, you know, I want to check
that even the the number of amount of spend was accurate and
stuff. So that was my first reaction.
My second reaction was phone Emma, my business partner and
(10:39):
say, Oh, this is up. And and then my physical
reaction was I used around to the toilet because I have a very
close link with my guts, my brain.
God, yeah. Laugh about it now.
And I was at home, so that's fine.
But that is what happens, you know, if you're put under severe
stress. Yeah, yeah.
(11:00):
Your body reacts. Your body No.
It does, it does. And I do not ignore that.
I do not ignore that if that is happening, you know, like I know
that I need to take some time out whatever anyway.
So yes. And then I went and looked at
the campaigns and I was like, and it's expected you've
launched this on something that had never been tested it with
very high bids, you know, no caps like.
(11:20):
So I just emailed saying that this is what happened as
basically I didn't say it as expected, but I said, look, we
put these warnings in and they were all ignored.
Yeah, painful. Yeah.
So. Give us your your biggest
learning. So like your top three learnings
from What would you have done differently?
(11:43):
I think the first warning about the, you know, not being kind
about his own team, not speakinghighly of his own team.
I probably would have said something early on before we
really started working together and said, well, do you rate your
team because you're asking us totrain them.
So do you think they can get there or not have a conversation
about that? And then depending on the
(12:04):
response, potentially not take on the contracts?
Yeah. Because really we were kind of
set up to fail a little bit. Yeah, So definitely that.
And then I think I could have sent an extra warning e-mail
about the launching gone higher,made sure he was more aware, but
I don't think it would have madeany difference.
(12:26):
No, no. And then the other learning is
don't take things to heart so much because of course me and
Emma took that so personally, especially because the business
was very young then. And actually, you know, now I
can reflect and think, well, we really did do everything we
could. So actually we shouldn't take
any blame or any personal thing.And obviously we've both got
(12:48):
quite upset about that and took it personally.
So I think, yeah, that would be easier next time.
Yeah, working with some clients it, it is just what it is as as
as painfully as it is as you know, because think of how you
won the client or even how you know all the things that you did
that felt like, you know, you should have.
Yeah, it should have been. It might be maybe someone, a
(13:10):
friend that recommended to you this client.
So you want to make sure that. You ironically it was so it
wasn't. It was recommended by a friend
so and he had had no issues withhim actually.
But then what? Now I think about it, in the
pitch there was another warning sign because he'd been through
three other agencies in like 2 years and he'd said oh you know
(13:30):
these are rubbish because blah blah and they're not all, not
all agencies are rubbish so. Yeah, no, you know.
And maybe you're the problem. Yeah, yeah, that is some
something that as much as I am, I'm busy writing all of my my
thoughts and processes about howthe paid search industry should
be working. I love like reading from loads
(13:52):
of other experts as well. And a recurring, A recurring
thought process is that as people will say that if they've
got a client and it's like, Oh yeah, my last four agencies in
the last four months were reallybad, that's a red flag.
That's a red flag. Like you know sure why.
Sure. You want to change so much?
(14:12):
Yeah. So much so quickly, I'm sure
you've got, you know, your USP and your ways that you're
different and maybe better than other agencies, but.
Look. Yeah, someone that cannot find
out find the right agency, like so many times.
I mean, yeah, you've got to be, you've got to be careful.
(14:35):
Yeah, I agree. There's something about
withholding relationships, like if you can't have a long
standing relationship at work, there's a problem, right?
Yeah, it's like I feel like we can we can use the analogy of
even like when you're finding like the right partner or right
like or something. If it did just broke up from a
(14:57):
relationship two weeks ago, you're like, dude, I'm the
rebound. This is.
Yeah. Make sure make sure you're not
the rebound. Yes, Yeah, yeah, I don't want to
be, definitely. Don't leave out agency.
Oh yeah, well, guy comes like, Oh yeah, I've had three
girlfriends in the last month and they just can't handle me.
(15:18):
Yeah. Run.
Yeah. Run.
Run away. Exactly.
Run. Yeah, exactly.
We'd say that to our best girlfriends or our best guy.
Yeah, you're right. We should think about that comes
to choosing clients as well for sure, yeah. 100% Another
another. Part of the story that I hope is
not too painful for you, that I feel that really I'd like to
(15:41):
also talk about is that, you know, you'd lost fees of, like
you said, about 12 grand or so. Yeah.
I mean, yeah, so that was bad. So he, you know, then it all
transpired and he said, well, you know, I don't want to work
with you anymore. And we were like, well, we don't
really want to work with you either, so that works.
And he then just ghosted us and didn't pay our consultancy
(16:06):
embraced. And my learning on that is we
spent far too long deliberating about and chasing.
And are we going to get it? And, and our mental mark at the
time was like, you should just write that money off because
you, you send, you do the legal chaser and stuff.
But in reality, you're what you're not doing because you're
(16:26):
constantly talking and worrying about it.
And he's, he was right because, you know, it was then getting in
the way of other pictures and other work.
And that is, you know, for good clients.
So having like a boundary of like, you know, if something's
going really badly or you can't make it work or, or someone's
not going to pay, there's a cut off time.
And after say whatever that is, 2 weeks a month, you're done.
(16:50):
There's no more time to be had on that move on because it would
have cost us more to keep on andon about it.
So I think that was a good learning that we got early on,
yeah. Yeah, no, absolutely.
I mean is have you kicked into any like prepayments of?
We haven't, we, we have like an we.
(17:13):
So if it's consultancy we invoice up from, but they don't
have to, they have 30 days to pay.
They don't pay up on us. Such to be honest, it's really
rare. It is actually really rare.
It's just one of biggest examples I have.
Yeah, it's just one of those. It's just part of it.
It's rude. I think it's part of this.
I have time. Yeah.
(17:34):
And if someone is going through this process right now, like
really they've they they're the ones that have just gotten a
client, a call from a client saying that you spend so much
money and it was based on you did they gave the client the
advice and the advice was not listened to all of that.
Someone is going through this project.
They've got their they're in thetoilet seat right now.
(17:56):
They've got Sir. Come on.
But there it is. Good.
What were you telling? Them, I mean, I would say, well,
first of all, they can ring me. Anyone in that scenario happy to
have a chat because you do feel better if you speak to someone
else about it. But also, I would say it's not
life or death. We are not heart surgeons.
It's just advertising. And if you've done your best and
(18:19):
you can show that you've done your best, or even if you have
made a mistake and show that you're willing to, you know,
show remorse and fix it, there'snothing else to do.
You know what I mean? Like.
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. That's a great story you've
shared with us. And we're going to come around
now to talking about just our industry as a whole and how
(18:40):
people deal with mistakes and whether we hear enough about it.
You know, people see industry. Do you feel like you you hear
enough about talking about failures?
I think it's getting better, like especially from this,
seeing it more and more. I think like when I was
learning, when I was in my 20s learning PPC, I often felt like
(19:04):
I was the stupidest one in the agency or I was the only one
making a mistake and things werehushed up and it would all be
done in meeting rooms quietly. Whereas I think now people like
us are more open. And I also think that now the
newer generations coming up are more open as well because
they're mirroring that behaviour, which is great.
(19:25):
So I mean, sometimes, like in our agency, we'll have a team
meeting and if there's been a mistake, we might say to that
person that if you want to talk about it, happy for you to talk
to the whole team about it. Everyone obviously will be kind
and give their condolences to like, it's not a problem to talk
about it. And the only way we can change
it is by sharing style. I, I don't want it to look like
(19:49):
I'm saying it, you know, everyone should make mistakes
and it's fine, but it's more like mistakes do happen.
You can put all the process you like in place and that will
reduce it, but sometimes that just happens and it's not worth
anyone's mental health really over it.
You're not able to care, but youdon't be able to get super
anxious about it really. No, absolutely.
(20:11):
I think something that was I really like that was shared in a
previous episode was that if you've not made a mistake,
you've probably not tested enough things.
Yes, yes, yeah, 100% yes. Because you remember it more.
It stays with you. And I've said all the mistakes
I've talked about publicly, I'veshared them with my team over
(20:34):
and over again. But sometimes they just need to
make their own mistakes to learn, you know, everybody.
Does. Yeah, that is, that is part of
it definitely in every job. Yeah, it is.
Is there a Safeway you'd say to fail like in digital marketing
or like or in your in your agency that that main managers
(20:57):
tip for like managers to you know of how to get digital
marketers not too scared about failing?
That's a good question. So as a leader, sharing your own
failings opens that door to let people feel it's OK to do that.
It's definitely that. And then it's how you deal with
mistakes and failings, right? So yeah, you know, we had it two
(21:20):
months ago when someone, like someone basically just set all,
all countries instead of just the UK on a campaign, didn't
spend that much, but it was still wrong.
So then so it's what you do whenthat comes out.
So what we do is we say, oh look, you know, it's a shame
that happened. What have you learned?
Usually learnt something and then can you tell the client,
(21:43):
tell them straight away, make itopen, don't try and hide stuff
because it probably will come out and then it'll be much
worse. Whereas if you say to a client,
you know, we left this setting on and it in 24 hours it's spent
like £50. In other markets other than the
UK, there is no client that is going to really have a massive
issue with that. They're going to say thank you
for your honesty, move on, don'tcare.
(22:03):
Whereas if you leave it and thenstuff comes out, they then don't
trust you. That is so much worse.
So I think, I mean, it's just all about comms, isn't it really
having everything open? Yes, absolutely it comms is the
biggest thing. Like if you, if you're the one
that speaks about the issue, come up with the plan.
You already have a plan. You know the why of what
(22:23):
happened. Come up with the plan of how to
how to bring it back. You can win most, most clients
over most, not all. And some clients, they're not
worth winning over as we've spoken about.
So know, know the difference, know the difference and yeah,
know when to cut losses. So another question I want to
(22:45):
come to because we are very muchin the era of AI, whether we
like it or not. And I know people just just want
to hear, especially with like lately, I don't know when people
are going to listen to this. You know, the last couple of
weeks there have been loads of changes about performance mags
and, you know, channel reportingmore negatives and all of that.
And even like with AI Max, the new search feature that is, that
(23:09):
is going to be coming out soon. Like AI can be a very positive
force. I'm pro AI, but I also think
that we sometimes use it wrong in a lot of ways.
What is like you're the biggest FF or biggest mistake in the in
the ways that people approach AIthat you've you've experienced
with like clients, especially inhelp?
(23:33):
That is an interesting one. I know you like some people use
it to, you know, write all theirads now.
And I think that is fine. But I think it's an F up to not
use your brain because what's going to happen long term, So
what's going to happen long termis all the ads are going to look
the same and no one's going to know how to write ads.
(23:57):
So I think people need to use their brain with AI yes, I mean,
I because I use it, I would say I'm a slightly later adopter,
like I'm using it, but I'm not like a must use it every single
thing type person. But I, I use it, but I
absolutely will go over what it is giving me and edit the hell
out of it. Because if you, your brain is a
(24:20):
muscle and if you're not using it, it will go.
And it, you know, at some point you might say you want to go for
another job and you're in a job interview and there's a Brit,
maybe there's a written part of the exam and you can't use AI.
What are you going to? Do.
Yeah, yeah. If you if you.
I guess what I'm saying is don'tlet it become a crutch.
(24:41):
Yeah, it's a support, but it shouldn't be a crutch.
Yeah. So yeah.
So yeah, probably the biggest step up is just like losing your
pain. For it, yeah.
Losing your brain, like be the strategist, be the person that
is still doing the thinking and let it help out.
Exactly. No.
No one's going to get paid a high salary because they can
(25:03):
know it well, not in the end, they're going to get paid a high
salary. Why?
Why would anyone hire you to be lazy?
Yeah, I used to call myself sometimes, Oh, I'm a bit lazy
because I just want to find the fastest way to do things.
But I call them more actually more efficient.
Like I'll think I'm the one that's actually thinking about
the things that needs to be doneis different.
Yes, it is different and using it for ideas and using it to
(25:26):
reduce time, research and stuff.Amazing.
It's great. Yeah, why wouldn't you?
But I just think if you're fullyusing it to write, you see it on
LinkedIn all the time, you know,people writing posts that just
think of chat DPT and you just think what's the point?
Yeah, point. Yeah, Oh, the comments for me,
for me is like, oh, people try to make it like they're engaging
(25:47):
with your, with all your posts, with all the comments and I've
started deleting stuff. I'm literally like AI didn't
give. I have time.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, me too. So annoying.
Yeah, so annoying. Yeah, you see it when you reply
as well. Yeah, if you like, you reply to
a clearly an AI comment and you're like, oh, that sounds
(26:08):
great, tell me more. And then they can't because they
haven't got brain. I don't.
Know more and maybe I should askthe activity what it meant and
yeah yeah, it just. Yeah, it's just ridiculous.
It's absolutely ridiculous. I saw a job title because going
to the whole will people pay youfor using AI?
And there's a job title I saw onLinkedIn of being an AI sports
editor. I'm like, what do you mean AI
(26:30):
sports editor? Yeah, GPT like Oh my goodness.
So yeah, companies themselves hiring process themselves,
they're, I think they're also part of the problem inside of
what they make it clear that's important.
You need to be an AI engineer. What's an AI engineer?
(26:50):
What does that mean? But they don't.
You know, people hiring managersjust don't know, do they?
No. Scary world.
It really is. It really is.
Well, Kat, this has been a fantastic conversation.
I, you know, I love chatting with you.
We meet at like award shows or like, you know, we'll, we'll,
we'll just just just chat away. But before you go, last question
(27:13):
that is more of a fun one. If your PPC, if your PPC career
were a movie, what would be the title?
OK. You should have read the
questions beforehand. Yeah, I said.
Oh, I said, oh, I don't know. I was going to say something
about prepare. Failing to prepare.
(27:37):
I think now turbulent times in digital.
Turbulent times in digital? Wow, that's ominous.
Like oh God, are you OK? I'm OK, I'm hanging in there.
I'm hanging in there. But it's definitely a roller
coaster. Yeah, yeah, It's very much a
(27:59):
roller coaster in this industry at the moment.
It sure is. Well, on that note, thank you so
much, Kat. Where can people find you if
they want to see some of your, you know, fantastic musings
about pay touch? Well, Linkedin's where our most
vocal. I like to shout about the good
and the bad I see. So look up on LinkedIn or you
(28:20):
can go on my website houseperformance.co.uk.
Absolutely lovely. Thank you so much for that, Kat.
No problem. Thanks.
Yes. Thank you so much, Kat, for
sharing that very honest and transparent experience.
It's always nerve wracking whereyou have to remember how much
money you lost from, you know, doing some work with a client,
(28:43):
whether it was the ad spend itself or what you could have
actually earned from that money.Because whatever the results of
working with the client, if you putting work into it, you
deserve to be paid for that because they're paying for your
effort. They're paying for your
intelligence, not just for the results.
So guys, be wary out there and watch out for those red flags so
(29:03):
that you don't come across a client who's going to make you
regret taking them on. Yeah.
So for all information and the full transcript for that
episode, go to Podcast dot PPC dot Live.
Of course, I've also got to update you on what's going on,
on PPC Live. We have the next event happening
on June the 26th in Leeds for those up north who want to
(29:24):
share. Want to meet with your
community? Want to meet with all the other
paid advertisers who are within walking distance of you?
Yeah, please come to this event.Tickets are live on PPC Dot Live
and their early bird sales they're going on.
And before I leave you, I'm alsodelighted to share that I'm
taking on coaching clients. So paid search coaching services
(29:45):
is what I'm offering on an hourly basis block.
So yeah, if you just go to themarketingannual.com, you can
book some time so that I can help you reignite your passion
and your confidence in paid search.
So yeah, I hope you enjoyed thatshow and I look forward to
bringing you more PPCF OPS and triumphs next week.
Bye.
Hello and welcome to PPC Live, the podcast formerly the PPC
Chat Roundup. My name is Anu, the founder of
PPC Live. And if you are used to hearing
advice from PPC experts about how to ensure that we are
keeping up with the ever changing landscape, don't worry,
you are still in the right place.
But instead of me relaying what the PPC experts are saying, I'm
(00:27):
going to be bringing the PPC experts to you.
Every week I'm going to be speaking to a different PPC
expert about their biggest F up,but not just that, also how
they've turned things around, what learnings they've taken out
from it. We're going to be sharing about
disappointments, who has been supportive along the way, what
has surprised them and much more.
(00:50):
Today we have the fantastic Cat Sale, who alongside with her
agency House of Performance, have been a fantastic supporter
of PPC Live and has sponsored some past events.
We're going to be talking about a past field that she
experienced with a client, advice that she gave that wasn't
listened to, what the outcome ofthat was and just how it has
just made her think about trusting herself more, being
(01:14):
more aware of red flags when shesees them and calling them out.
So yeah, let's hear more from Kat.
Hello Kat, Welcome to PPC Live, the podcast.
Hi, thanks for having me. It's a delight.
So for those who don't know, CatSail is the Co founder of House
(01:35):
of Performance, a brilliant supporter of PPC Live.
They were one of the first supporters and sponsor us.
They're AUK based performance marketing consultancy that
specialises in helping ambitiousbrands maximise their return on
investment through paid media channels such as PPC, paid
social display and remarketing campaigns.
(01:56):
Now, beyond her consultancy work, Kat is an active thought
leader in the performance marketing space, especially on
LinkedIn, and she has shared herexpertise on platforms like the
Marketing Meet Up where she discussed strategies for
successful PPC campaigns, emphasising the importance of
understanding one's product deeply in quotation marks.
(02:18):
Eat the dog food. That is a phrase that she's used
on multiple occasions. Pat also has appeared on the PPC
Mastery podcast, where she discussed building an agency
that people enjoy working at, highlighting the importance of
company culture and adaptabilityin today's marketing landscape.
What she likes to do for fun obstacle courses, she says, and
(02:40):
we should be seeing her on the Gladiators very soon.
She also has two boys who keep her very, very busy.
I've made her laugh. But yeah, let's go back to that
phrase. Cat eat the dog food.
What is that about? Though a long time ago a mentor
taught me this phrase and it basically means if you're going
(03:00):
to work with a client or on a specific business, you need to
eat the dog food, AKA test the product, do the thing that they
sell, understand it inside out. So for example, we recently
started working with biscuit tears, so that's an easy one.
They sell luxury biscuits. So the first thing I did was
went on their website and ordered some biscuits to each to
(03:23):
test, you know? OK.
Yeah, yeah. So really actually experience
the product. Try try as much as.
You have to. How can you market something
properly if you don't fully? Yeah, exactly.
Yeah. Yes, I think that actually
reminds me of of a friend, this lady called Lesion who she wrote
an article recently about being curious.
(03:44):
Being curious is your biggest, you know, superpower about being
a marketer. And because she wanted to, she
was trying to gain a client who owned yachts.
She actually took put herself through a training to learn how
to operate a yacht. And I was like what?
How that is properly switching the dog food that.
(04:05):
Yeah, exactly. I think it's so important and
it's so overlooked. So yeah, as much as we, as much
as we realistically can, we keepthe dog food.
Absolutely. And yeah, thank you for taking
time out of your holiday. Looks like you're having a a
great time. For those who are just listening
to this, this, I'm just kidding with Cat, she is that she is in
(04:26):
the middle of a work day, but she's very much taken advantage
of the brilliant weather we're having here in the UK, which
doesn't happen often. So I totally empathise with her
that yeah, as much as you can dosome working in the sun.
Take it, take it. Why not?
Why not? All right, love it.
OK, let's not keep our listenerswaiting much longer.
(04:48):
They you know, we know what are these podcasts about?
We're talking about F UPS with experience, learnings we've had
from it, how we've we've managedto still lead a life of success,
lead a carrier of success despite this issue.
So, Cat, what do you want to share with us today?
I have so many. So I want to talk about when the
(05:12):
business was quite new house performance only been going a
year and a bit and we started working with a gifting company
that did gift experiences and physical gifts and we were
consulting with them. And the long and short of it was
they wanted to launch or one of their peaks which was Father's
Day and their team spent £40,000with 0 sales.
(05:36):
That's the main. Up.
We then didn't get our contract paid so we lost 12,500 in fees
and the contract ended. It was bad, a lot of learnings.
Wow. Yeah, yeah, that's a, that's
already a big, a big heavy like £40,000 was spent over what
(05:59):
period of time? Three days.
Over 3 days. Oh, wow.
OK, yeah, all right. Yeah, let's, let's.
I promise more than my advice. I promise I can explain.
OK, right, get to the. Let's get to the explanation of
it. Let's get to the meat of it.
What's what caused it? What caused this issue?
(06:20):
Though the client, the business was run very hands on by
founder, CEO, and he very much wanted to go big for Father's
Day. He had two brands.
One was sort of tried and testedon Father's Day, a secondary
brand. They had not been in.
This is all in PPC by the way. They'd not been in the auction
(06:41):
for Father's Day for this brand and he wanted to go big on it.
So he said, right, help my team learn how to build campaigns and
start entering the auction for all things Father's Day gifting.
So we taught them how to build apains.
We taught them how to upload them into interface a very new
junior team as well. And then it was the IT was a
(07:02):
Friday about two, maybe 3 weeks before Father's Day, I think 3
weeks. And we said don't launch on a
Friday unless you're going to check it on a Saturday.
Never. No, no, no CEO said we need to
go live. OK, the next thing was we
wouldn't recommend you launch itin broad match.
We recommend you launch it in exact and if it performs well,
(07:22):
we'll then add some fries and then we'll add some broad if
it's good. Ah, broad match will be fine.
We're going to launch in broad match.
OK, up to you. It's your your account.
Start with a conservative budgetbecause you know, we don't know
how it's going to perform. Now we're going to put 500 a day
on all of these campaigns. They've loads of campaigns
they've built out. Oh my God, my.
(07:46):
Favourite disaster? But we were running it, we were
consulting, right? Because half of what we do is
consulting and guiding others. So all we could do is send an
e-mail explaining what we'd already said.
These are the risks, go for it. So we did and they did, and off
we went on the weekend. Try not to worry about it.
(08:07):
I didn't log in at the weekend because I'm really anti that.
Unless you have to, like I'm very anti, it's not my account.
And then on the Monday 9:00, my phone rings and it's the CEO and
he says you spent £40,000 and wehaven't had one sale.
And I was like, well we didn't and we advised all of this, but
(08:27):
you kind of made them and you put the pressure on and yeah, it
was bad. It's really bad.
That is, that is really annoying.
I think there's there's a lessonto be learn of.
Like I don't even think the mistake was the spend.
The mistake was maybe the clientchoice because you.
Know. A client that would is not going
(08:49):
to listen to you, a client that is just not paying attention to
to anything that you're saying, you know, yeah, that's and which
which happens because you don't we you never know who you're
going to work with until it begins.
And then you're like, oh, OK, but you know, mistake.
Let's let's Were there any signsbefore like this campaign, that
(09:12):
they were such a client? Yeah, there was a little bit.
So when we went in, we had a couple of meetings, you know, a
pitch stage and the CEO would talk really badly about his
team. And I think that's a flag sign
because if they're your team, you should back them and you
should rate them and build especially to an external
(09:33):
company. We're, we're just a consultancy.
So that was in hindsight, that was a flag.
We didn't really pay attention to it at the time, but that is a
flag. I think if you're, if you don't
back your own team, you're certainly not going to back us,
are you? Because we're external and he
was very pushy with, you know, we need this.
(09:55):
But we, I've had clients like that before, but not obviously
not with the same outcome. So I wouldn't say there's any
other major flags. That was OK, all right.
And So what was your first reaction?
You get this call from this kindyou're like and that 9:00 AM
morning. What was your?
What was your instinct? You know?
(10:16):
To do. Say.
So I said, well, let me go and have a look for what's happened
and come back to you with like my diagnosis of that.
You know, I sort of already knowI was like, I'm going to go and
have a look and really see it. So, you know, I want to check
that even the the number of amount of spend was accurate and
stuff. So that was my first reaction.
My second reaction was phone Emma, my business partner and
(10:39):
say, Oh, this is up. And and then my physical
reaction was I used around to the toilet because I have a very
close link with my guts, my brain.
God, yeah. Laugh about it now.
And I was at home, so that's fine.
But that is what happens, you know, if you're put under severe
stress. Yeah, yeah.
(11:00):
Your body reacts. Your body No.
It does, it does. And I do not ignore that.
I do not ignore that if that is happening, you know, like I know
that I need to take some time out whatever anyway.
So yes. And then I went and looked at
the campaigns and I was like, and it's expected you've
launched this on something that had never been tested it with
very high bids, you know, no caps like.
(11:20):
So I just emailed saying that this is what happened as
basically I didn't say it as expected, but I said, look, we
put these warnings in and they were all ignored.
Yeah, painful. Yeah.
So. Give us your your biggest
learning. So like your top three learnings
from What would you have done differently?
(11:43):
I think the first warning about the, you know, not being kind
about his own team, not speakinghighly of his own team.
I probably would have said something early on before we
really started working together and said, well, do you rate your
team because you're asking us totrain them.
So do you think they can get there or not have a conversation
about that? And then depending on the
(12:04):
response, potentially not take on the contracts?
Yeah. Because really we were kind of
set up to fail a little bit. Yeah, So definitely that.
And then I think I could have sent an extra warning e-mail
about the launching gone higher,made sure he was more aware, but
I don't think it would have madeany difference.
(12:26):
No, no. And then the other learning is
don't take things to heart so much because of course me and
Emma took that so personally, especially because the business
was very young then. And actually, you know, now I
can reflect and think, well, we really did do everything we
could. So actually we shouldn't take
any blame or any personal thing.And obviously we've both got
(12:48):
quite upset about that and took it personally.
So I think, yeah, that would be easier next time.
Yeah, working with some clients it, it is just what it is as as
as painfully as it is as you know, because think of how you
won the client or even how you know all the things that you did
that felt like, you know, you should have.
Yeah, it should have been. It might be maybe someone, a
(13:10):
friend that recommended to you this client.
So you want to make sure that. You ironically it was so it
wasn't. It was recommended by a friend
so and he had had no issues withhim actually.
But then what? Now I think about it, in the
pitch there was another warning sign because he'd been through
three other agencies in like 2 years and he'd said oh you know
(13:30):
these are rubbish because blah blah and they're not all, not
all agencies are rubbish so. Yeah, no, you know.
And maybe you're the problem. Yeah, yeah, that is some
something that as much as I am, I'm busy writing all of my my
thoughts and processes about howthe paid search industry should
be working. I love like reading from loads
(13:52):
of other experts as well. And a recurring, A recurring
thought process is that as people will say that if they've
got a client and it's like, Oh yeah, my last four agencies in
the last four months were reallybad, that's a red flag.
That's a red flag. Like you know sure why.
Sure. You want to change so much?
(14:12):
Yeah. So much so quickly, I'm sure
you've got, you know, your USP and your ways that you're
different and maybe better than other agencies, but.
Look. Yeah, someone that cannot find
out find the right agency, like so many times.
I mean, yeah, you've got to be, you've got to be careful.
(14:35):
Yeah, I agree. There's something about
withholding relationships, like if you can't have a long
standing relationship at work, there's a problem, right?
Yeah, it's like I feel like we can we can use the analogy of
even like when you're finding like the right partner or right
like or something. If it did just broke up from a
(14:57):
relationship two weeks ago, you're like, dude, I'm the
rebound. This is.
Yeah. Make sure make sure you're not
the rebound. Yes, Yeah, yeah, I don't want to
be, definitely. Don't leave out agency.
Oh yeah, well, guy comes like, Oh yeah, I've had three
girlfriends in the last month and they just can't handle me.
(15:18):
Yeah. Run.
Yeah. Run.
Run away. Exactly.
Run. Yeah, exactly.
We'd say that to our best girlfriends or our best guy.
Yeah, you're right. We should think about that comes
to choosing clients as well for sure, yeah. 100% Another
another. Part of the story that I hope is
not too painful for you, that I feel that really I'd like to
(15:41):
also talk about is that, you know, you'd lost fees of, like
you said, about 12 grand or so. Yeah.
I mean, yeah, so that was bad. So he, you know, then it all
transpired and he said, well, you know, I don't want to work
with you anymore. And we were like, well, we don't
really want to work with you either, so that works.
And he then just ghosted us and didn't pay our consultancy
(16:06):
embraced. And my learning on that is we
spent far too long deliberating about and chasing.
And are we going to get it? And, and our mental mark at the
time was like, you should just write that money off because
you, you send, you do the legal chaser and stuff.
But in reality, you're what you're not doing because you're
(16:26):
constantly talking and worrying about it.
And he's, he was right because, you know, it was then getting in
the way of other pictures and other work.
And that is, you know, for good clients.
So having like a boundary of like, you know, if something's
going really badly or you can't make it work or, or someone's
not going to pay, there's a cut off time.
And after say whatever that is, 2 weeks a month, you're done.
(16:50):
There's no more time to be had on that move on because it would
have cost us more to keep on andon about it.
So I think that was a good learning that we got early on,
yeah. Yeah, no, absolutely.
I mean is have you kicked into any like prepayments of?
We haven't, we, we have like an we.
(17:13):
So if it's consultancy we invoice up from, but they don't
have to, they have 30 days to pay.
They don't pay up on us. Such to be honest, it's really
rare. It is actually really rare.
It's just one of biggest examples I have.
Yeah, it's just one of those. It's just part of it.
It's rude. I think it's part of this.
I have time. Yeah.
(17:34):
And if someone is going through this process right now, like
really they've they they're the ones that have just gotten a
client, a call from a client saying that you spend so much
money and it was based on you did they gave the client the
advice and the advice was not listened to all of that.
Someone is going through this project.
They've got their they're in thetoilet seat right now.
(17:56):
They've got Sir. Come on.
But there it is. Good.
What were you telling? Them, I mean, I would say, well,
first of all, they can ring me. Anyone in that scenario happy to
have a chat because you do feel better if you speak to someone
else about it. But also, I would say it's not
life or death. We are not heart surgeons.
It's just advertising. And if you've done your best and
(18:19):
you can show that you've done your best, or even if you have
made a mistake and show that you're willing to, you know,
show remorse and fix it, there'snothing else to do.
You know what I mean? Like.
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. That's a great story you've
shared with us. And we're going to come around
now to talking about just our industry as a whole and how
(18:40):
people deal with mistakes and whether we hear enough about it.
You know, people see industry. Do you feel like you you hear
enough about talking about failures?
I think it's getting better, like especially from this,
seeing it more and more. I think like when I was
learning, when I was in my 20s learning PPC, I often felt like
(19:04):
I was the stupidest one in the agency or I was the only one
making a mistake and things werehushed up and it would all be
done in meeting rooms quietly. Whereas I think now people like
us are more open. And I also think that now the
newer generations coming up are more open as well because
they're mirroring that behaviour, which is great.
(19:25):
So I mean, sometimes, like in our agency, we'll have a team
meeting and if there's been a mistake, we might say to that
person that if you want to talk about it, happy for you to talk
to the whole team about it. Everyone obviously will be kind
and give their condolences to like, it's not a problem to talk
about it. And the only way we can change
it is by sharing style. I, I don't want it to look like
(19:49):
I'm saying it, you know, everyone should make mistakes
and it's fine, but it's more like mistakes do happen.
You can put all the process you like in place and that will
reduce it, but sometimes that just happens and it's not worth
anyone's mental health really over it.
You're not able to care, but youdon't be able to get super
anxious about it really. No, absolutely.
(20:11):
I think something that was I really like that was shared in a
previous episode was that if you've not made a mistake,
you've probably not tested enough things.
Yes, yes, yeah, 100% yes. Because you remember it more.
It stays with you. And I've said all the mistakes
I've talked about publicly, I'veshared them with my team over
(20:34):
and over again. But sometimes they just need to
make their own mistakes to learn, you know, everybody.
Does. Yeah, that is, that is part of
it definitely in every job. Yeah, it is.
Is there a Safeway you'd say to fail like in digital marketing
or like or in your in your agency that that main managers
(20:57):
tip for like managers to you know of how to get digital
marketers not too scared about failing?
That's a good question. So as a leader, sharing your own
failings opens that door to let people feel it's OK to do that.
It's definitely that. And then it's how you deal with
mistakes and failings, right? So yeah, you know, we had it two
(21:20):
months ago when someone, like someone basically just set all,
all countries instead of just the UK on a campaign, didn't
spend that much, but it was still wrong.
So then so it's what you do whenthat comes out.
So what we do is we say, oh look, you know, it's a shame
that happened. What have you learned?
Usually learnt something and then can you tell the client,
(21:43):
tell them straight away, make itopen, don't try and hide stuff
because it probably will come out and then it'll be much
worse. Whereas if you say to a client,
you know, we left this setting on and it in 24 hours it's spent
like £50. In other markets other than the
UK, there is no client that is going to really have a massive
issue with that. They're going to say thank you
for your honesty, move on, don'tcare.
(22:03):
Whereas if you leave it and thenstuff comes out, they then don't
trust you. That is so much worse.
So I think, I mean, it's just all about comms, isn't it really
having everything open? Yes, absolutely it comms is the
biggest thing. Like if you, if you're the one
that speaks about the issue, come up with the plan.
You already have a plan. You know the why of what
(22:23):
happened. Come up with the plan of how to
how to bring it back. You can win most, most clients
over most, not all. And some clients, they're not
worth winning over as we've spoken about.
So know, know the difference, know the difference and yeah,
know when to cut losses. So another question I want to
(22:45):
come to because we are very muchin the era of AI, whether we
like it or not. And I know people just just want
to hear, especially with like lately, I don't know when people
are going to listen to this. You know, the last couple of
weeks there have been loads of changes about performance mags
and, you know, channel reportingmore negatives and all of that.
And even like with AI Max, the new search feature that is, that
(23:09):
is going to be coming out soon. Like AI can be a very positive
force. I'm pro AI, but I also think
that we sometimes use it wrong in a lot of ways.
What is like you're the biggest FF or biggest mistake in the in
the ways that people approach AIthat you've you've experienced
with like clients, especially inhelp?
(23:33):
That is an interesting one. I know you like some people use
it to, you know, write all theirads now.
And I think that is fine. But I think it's an F up to not
use your brain because what's going to happen long term, So
what's going to happen long termis all the ads are going to look
the same and no one's going to know how to write ads.
(23:57):
So I think people need to use their brain with AI yes, I mean,
I because I use it, I would say I'm a slightly later adopter,
like I'm using it, but I'm not like a must use it every single
thing type person. But I, I use it, but I
absolutely will go over what it is giving me and edit the hell
out of it. Because if you, your brain is a
(24:20):
muscle and if you're not using it, it will go.
And it, you know, at some point you might say you want to go for
another job and you're in a job interview and there's a Brit,
maybe there's a written part of the exam and you can't use AI.
What are you going to? Do.
Yeah, yeah. If you if you.
I guess what I'm saying is don'tlet it become a crutch.
(24:41):
Yeah, it's a support, but it shouldn't be a crutch.
Yeah. So yeah.
So yeah, probably the biggest step up is just like losing your
pain. For it, yeah.
Losing your brain, like be the strategist, be the person that
is still doing the thinking and let it help out.
Exactly. No.
No one's going to get paid a high salary because they can
(25:03):
know it well, not in the end, they're going to get paid a high
salary. Why?
Why would anyone hire you to be lazy?
Yeah, I used to call myself sometimes, Oh, I'm a bit lazy
because I just want to find the fastest way to do things.
But I call them more actually more efficient.
Like I'll think I'm the one that's actually thinking about
the things that needs to be doneis different.
Yes, it is different and using it for ideas and using it to
(25:26):
reduce time, research and stuff.Amazing.
It's great. Yeah, why wouldn't you?
But I just think if you're fullyusing it to write, you see it on
LinkedIn all the time, you know,people writing posts that just
think of chat DPT and you just think what's the point?
Yeah, point. Yeah, Oh, the comments for me,
for me is like, oh, people try to make it like they're engaging
(25:47):
with your, with all your posts, with all the comments and I've
started deleting stuff. I'm literally like AI didn't
give. I have time.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, me too. So annoying.
Yeah, so annoying. Yeah, you see it when you reply
as well. Yeah, if you like, you reply to
a clearly an AI comment and you're like, oh, that sounds
(26:08):
great, tell me more. And then they can't because they
haven't got brain. I don't.
Know more and maybe I should askthe activity what it meant and
yeah yeah, it just. Yeah, it's just ridiculous.
It's absolutely ridiculous. I saw a job title because going
to the whole will people pay youfor using AI?
And there's a job title I saw onLinkedIn of being an AI sports
editor. I'm like, what do you mean AI
(26:30):
sports editor? Yeah, GPT like Oh my goodness.
So yeah, companies themselves hiring process themselves,
they're, I think they're also part of the problem inside of
what they make it clear that's important.
You need to be an AI engineer. What's an AI engineer?
(26:50):
What does that mean? But they don't.
You know, people hiring managersjust don't know, do they?
No. Scary world.
It really is. It really is.
Well, Kat, this has been a fantastic conversation.
I, you know, I love chatting with you.
We meet at like award shows or like, you know, we'll, we'll,
we'll just just just chat away. But before you go, last question
(27:13):
that is more of a fun one. If your PPC, if your PPC career
were a movie, what would be the title?
OK. You should have read the
questions beforehand. Yeah, I said.
Oh, I said, oh, I don't know. I was going to say something
about prepare. Failing to prepare.
(27:37):
I think now turbulent times in digital.
Turbulent times in digital? Wow, that's ominous.
Like oh God, are you OK? I'm OK, I'm hanging in there.
I'm hanging in there. But it's definitely a roller
coaster. Yeah, yeah, It's very much a
(27:59):
roller coaster in this industry at the moment.
It sure is. Well, on that note, thank you so
much, Kat. Where can people find you if
they want to see some of your, you know, fantastic musings
about pay touch? Well, Linkedin's where our most
vocal. I like to shout about the good
and the bad I see. So look up on LinkedIn or you
(28:20):
can go on my website houseperformance.co.uk.
Absolutely lovely. Thank you so much for that, Kat.
No problem. Thanks.
Yes. Thank you so much, Kat, for
sharing that very honest and transparent experience.
It's always nerve wracking whereyou have to remember how much
money you lost from, you know, doing some work with a client,
(28:43):
whether it was the ad spend itself or what you could have
actually earned from that money.Because whatever the results of
working with the client, if you putting work into it, you
deserve to be paid for that because they're paying for your
effort. They're paying for your
intelligence, not just for the results.
So guys, be wary out there and watch out for those red flags so
(29:03):
that you don't come across a client who's going to make you
regret taking them on. Yeah.
So for all information and the full transcript for that
episode, go to Podcast dot PPC dot Live.
Of course, I've also got to update you on what's going on,
on PPC Live. We have the next event happening
on June the 26th in Leeds for those up north who want to
(29:24):
share. Want to meet with your
community? Want to meet with all the other
paid advertisers who are within walking distance of you?
Yeah, please come to this event.Tickets are live on PPC Dot Live
and their early bird sales they're going on.
And before I leave you, I'm alsodelighted to share that I'm
taking on coaching clients. So paid search coaching services
(29:45):
is what I'm offering on an hourly basis block.
So yeah, if you just go to themarketingannual.com, you can
book some time so that I can help you reignite your passion
and your confidence in paid search.
So yeah, I hope you enjoyed thatshow and I look forward to
bringing you more PPCF OPS and triumphs next week.
Bye.
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