August 13, 2025 • 33 mins
In this episode of PPC Live, Anu welcomes Matt Shenton from Croud, one of the biggest global agencies. Matt shares a candid story from his early career about overspending a client's budget and the valuable lessons he learned from that experience. They discuss the importance of accountability, client communication, and continuously monitoring campaign performance. Matt, who is also well-versed in AI and machine learning, offers insights into the current and future landscape of paid search, emphasizing that while AI tools are powerful, human expertise remains indispensable. The episode concludes with actionable advice for both seasoned and junior PPC professionals on navigating mistakes and leveraging AI effectively.
00:00 Introduction to PPC Live Podcast
00:46 Guest Introduction: Matt Shenton from Croud
01:46 Matt's Career Journey and Early Challenges
05:19 The Big Mistake: Overspending Incident
10:00 Lessons Learned and Advice for Juniors
13:39 Managing Teams and Delegating Responsibilities
16:13 Tailoring Responses to Mistakes
18:06 Ownership and Accountability in Mistakes
19:58 Common Industry Mistakes
21:54 AI Mistakes and Misconceptions
24:48 The Future of AI and Digital Marketing
29:12 Fun and Final Thoughts
Find Matt on LinkedIn
Book a coaching call with Anu
PPC Live The Podcast (formerly PPCChat Roundup) features weekly conversations with paid search experts sharing their experiences, challenges, and triumphs in the ever-changing digital marketing landscape.
The next PPC Live London event is on August 14th or October 22nd
Follow us on LinkedIn
Follow us on Twitter
Join our WhatsApp Group
Subscribe to our Newsletter
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:04):
Hello and welcome to PPC Live, the podcast formerly known as
PPC Chat Roundup. My name is Anu, the founder of
PPC Live. And if you're used to hearing
from PPC experts about how to ensure that we are keeping up
with the ever changing landscape, don't worry, you are
still in the right place. But instead of relaying what the
PPC experts are saying, I'm bringing the PPC experts to you.
(00:26):
Every week I'm going to be speaking to a different PPC
expert about their biggest F up and how they've turned things
around. So we're talking heads of teams,
paid search directors and heads of departments who chair about
what went wrong, but how they overcame it and continue to be a
success in the industry till today.
(00:46):
So today we've got Matt chantingfrom one of the biggest global
agencies crowd. They've got a New York based,
they've got Auk base. And Matt himself talks about one
of his experiences from his early career, a story that he
doesn't even think that his current team may know of yet,
about him overspending and how that went about, what the
reaction from his manager was, how he was quite neutral, but it
(01:10):
actually worked for him. It's one of those not
one-size-fits-all. So yeah, she has some great
stories about that. And as someone who's actually, I
would say, probably one of the few people in our industry who
is highly educated in the area of the field, because I've
spoken to loads of people who did archaeology and are in
marketing and are doing it well.But he actually has AI education
(01:32):
experience. He's got a mini MBA as well.
So he's got some very amazingly intellectual advice to give give
us about the AI revolution and how we should approach the
future of paid search. Yeah, let's go speak to Matt.
Hello Matt, welcome to PPC Live The.
Podcast. Hi, thanks.
So great to meet you. Amazing.
Yeah, I see. Amazing a lot.
(01:53):
I'm sorry. I write everything.
Oh, Razor. That's my, that's my like, my
filler word. Yeah.
Imagine we met at estimates advanced like literally earlier
this year, first time in person.And it was just so lovely to
yeah. It's always great to meet other
very eager paid search professionals in our fields,
(02:15):
especially people who come to events.
I don't know, I think the peoplewho come to events are
different. We're different breed of people.
When actually it's always like we're suck of the punishment of
the whole talking about Google and we're not.
We know, OK, we need to have been on 9:00 to 5:00.
We really want to get involved and be in a room with all loads
of other people talking about it.
But I feel that's where you learn the most and that leads a
(02:35):
very talented team. A crowd there are, I know
they're quite on global because I feel I know you have US and
the UK. And yeah, Matt's got over a
decade of experience in digital marketing, bringing a blend of
data-driven expertise and a deepunderstanding of AI to the
table, enabling him to design and optimise strategies that
(02:56):
have driven business growth and enhanced customer engagement and
increasing in retention across various industries.
We, we are both like Alma Motorsof the marketing week, mini MBA
in marketing with Mark Britson, which is lovely.
We need to send this to him and be like, yeah, both of us
(03:16):
graduates of his university cometogether and we're still credit
him for his, the fantastic learnings that we got from his
mini MBA. He's also done an AI as in Matt,
not Mark. Now I think Matt, Matt Ryan has
done an AI machine learning course at the University of
Texas at Austin, some lovely, interesting facts.
We had a sing song beforehand because I was like, Matt is like
(03:36):
an Englishman in New York, like the Englishman in New York that
stinks sang about. Yeah.
He's one of those famous birds, loves to travel and he wanted to
be a pilot at some point. I find that very interesting.
He says he's going to weed that into the story that he's going
to talk about. So I'm really looking forward to
that. And at some point, he tried his
hand at stand up comedy. You just did it for one, one
(03:58):
show. Why, Matt, why did you deprive
New York of your comedic skills?Because it didn't go terrible at
feel things like that. You quit while you're ahead.
So going well, that's it one andtwo.
I don't know, I feel like the paid search field, if AI takes
over all our roles. I think that going back into
(04:19):
comedy though, we need to laugh.Our world needs a bit more
laughter. So maybe think about.
My earnings would plummet if I did that.
They're OK. Everything come through that
for. Oh, let's say no, let's say no.
Oh, OK. Yeah.
It's this is like, really, again, really grateful that
you're on this podcast with us. And because, yeah, talking about
(04:40):
mistakes is not something a lot of other podcasts do.
I don't think any other podcasts.
I'm not listening to any other podcasts where it's all about
talking about errors and failures.
And we see a lot of people bragging about their work, which
understandably, that's how you make it.
That's how you gain your new clients.
But I think there's also room tobe human.
(05:00):
We never leave on a defeated note.
We're going to going to talk about what what was the defining
thing that turned it around and continue to make you a trusted
leader in the field. Yeah.
Let's get into a no. No more rambling for me.
Let's hear from Matt. Matt, what's the effort where
you'd like to share with us today?
So I want to 1st to this question.
(05:20):
First of all, thanks for having me on.
I do think it's great to do thisand share failures because as
you rightly say, if people don'ttalk about it enough, it can
feel like you're the only personwho's making these mistakes,
which is far from the truth. I've been in the industry long
enough to have more mistakes. I'd like to admit.
The one that comes to mind though, as the first one that
really impacted me, taught me a lot, was I think I'd started a
(05:45):
crowd. I've been here for about a year,
so this was seven years ago and I guess some additional context,
I came into paid search as a proper job when I was about
29th, 3rd. So I felt like I was having to
start again and not in a new industry.
So I come from affiliate marketing in affiliate
marketing. Prior to that been made
redundant, had to start getting paid search.
So it's a bit of a catch up. Needed to really do well.
(06:09):
And I was on a client was gamingdeveloper in the UK, pretty big
name and they have this one title and budget for it per
month with I think we've got 20 KA month.
And I realised on the first day of the next month that I'd
overspent by 2000 lbs. And as soon as I realised that
(06:30):
it was worst shooting in the world.
It's all even just trying to go back there.
It's it's so horrible and remembering back.
I think it probably like a period of maybe like 20 minutes,
thirty minutes where I sat within myself and tried to just
deal with the emotion and then fact find what happened, why did
it happen? And it was like, OK, now I need
(06:51):
to book a meeting with my boss, with James at the time.
Had a meet with him later that day, sat down and was like,
there's no point in trying to bearound it.
And he was very, he was very matter of fact about it.
He didn't try to say, oh, it's OK.
I think he realised that it is an area you need to kind of
learn from. He gathered the facts and then
(07:14):
we communicated to the client pretty quickly.
And that was big learning for meis that with these mistakes, you
kind of have to figure out what's happened, get that, find
out what I have and then as quickly as possible, go to the
client, communicate it, here's what happened, here's what's
never going to happen again. Just deal with it very quickly.
And I think because you do that very fast, it's not over, but
(07:34):
like go through the process pretty quickly.
The only person made me feel slightly better was the the
client lead on the on our side of the time sent.
He said he reassured me that he'd seen a previous or maybe
even he himself had made a previous of spend.
It was like 50 times more than that.
And that was when I realised, OK, I'm not the worst person
(07:56):
that paid search and like this to happen.
So yeah, that that's the one I think of.
OK, So what was the what caused the overspend to actually
happen? Was like a targeting issue or
like a budget laid daily budget limits was not set right?
What was the thing that had gonewrong?
Yeah, I think from memory it wasmiscommunication.
(08:16):
I think I maybe thought it was, it was 22 and it wasn't, it was
20. Yeah.
So I from memory, I think I just, I misunderstood.
And then when it I think the wayit happened was I checked the
first day of the next month, noticed that actually the comms
were it was, it was 20 or 22 andthat was spent.
Yeah, my my misunderstanding on the budget and.
(08:40):
Then not good. No, not good.
Yeah, because you almost have a double decline when I think
you're not listening to them when the briefing that they've
put in and all that kind of stuff.
OK, Yeah. And what you said your manager
was very matter of fact, did it,But how did you feel about it?
How did you feel in that meeting?
Was it a bit like a awful mess that you felt or afterwards was
(09:03):
he like, OK, let's just learn and move on?
I think eventually learn and move on, but it took a while.
Probably he'll wished and I think that the first moment it
happened in first few days did feel pretty terrible.
I think because my manager was very matter of fact about it.
He wasn't like, oh, this is terrible.
It's really bad. He wasn't like, don't worry
about it. He was just very middle of the
(09:24):
road. You couldn't really tell what he
was thinking. I think that because the manager
and I can appreciate that now, his main thought was like, how
do I fix this? How do I fix?
He doesn't really care necessarily about blame.
It's just like, how do you fix it?
So I think because of that, it didn't, he didn't make me feel
any better or worse. That makes sense.
OK. I think I appreciate it because
(09:44):
you do need to that made sure that I was more accountable and
took ownership of that, which isreally important for them
learning. And I can tell you now there are
things I still do today, accounts there are as a result
of that. Happening, OK.
Seven years ago, so. What are those things?
What are those things that specifically that you make sure
that you do now because of that story?
(10:05):
Yeah, though the crowd, we have pretty good level of like
intraday and day reporting. And so that's emailed to us, we
get alerts, we get different dashboards.
So we've got plenty of places tolook at hourly and daily data
and all the time, certainly first thing in the morning is
one of the things, first things I do.
And then during the day on certain accounts, I will look at
(10:27):
the hourly reports to understandwhat's going on.
Yeah, yeah. So yes, still in the detail a
little bit. Yeah.
A. Lot of the detail, yeah.
Because I don't know, like I feel that could be because it's
someone's role definitely to be in the detail, whether that's
your role, I'd say I'd argue maybe it's not in terms of or
(10:49):
yeah, I don't know. Look, I didn't do a comment
anymore, so do not take it. That's for me.
And So what role is for different people in different
teams. I know it can be very different
now with, yeah, AI revolution, all that kind of stuff going on.
But I'd also say that I'd be interested to know that what's
how that impacts client communication, even like how
does that impact client processes?
(11:10):
Because what, what stuck out to me was the fact that, OK, maybe
you did see that you thought it was 22, you thought it was 22 K.
And I say, for example, it was actually 20K.
Is there anything in terms of like actually the crook, the
client processing on terms of the detailing as to what the
budget is for the month, for theyear that you do differently?
(11:33):
Yeah, but both me personally andas as any agency grows and
develops, the processes and automation just increases.
So it's almost, I'm not going tosay it's impossible to make that
mistake again because I really shouldn't say that.
But there are certainly a lot more processes in place as a
company that gets larger. Yeah, there's places where there
(11:54):
are centralised records that have budgets, both exteriors,
the platform than in the platform of you put cap budgets
now and do that. I was thinking about this
earlier. I do feel like overspends
generally seem less common and Idon't know if that's platforms
of change slightly and it's lesslike it's harder to do that now,
but I can't really think of why that would be because on
(12:14):
campaign budgets can still spend200 percent or double.
Double them. I was going to say, when you say
overspend is not possible, I'm like, do you want which platform
are you talking about? Google or in the blink of an ID
let's say. It's definitely still possible,
yeah. All those processes and spread
documentations meant that it's just far less likely now.
(12:37):
It's far less likely. No, that's good.
Now what's your advice for for someone going through this right
now? Like someone's like just been in
the middle of they have all thisband by a couple of grand.
You're junior and they're all you're really nervous.
What's your advice to them? Great question.
I would say, first of all, don'tthink you're the only person in
(12:58):
the world that's ever done that,made that mistake and those
people have still gone to have great careers.
They're very smart people. You, it is always good to take
ownership and accountability, try and make excuses or pass it
off, own up to what mistake and depending on your, your part in
it all. But I think that's really
important because that helps youto, to internalise it and then
(13:19):
make sure that it doesn't happenever again.
Like you, when you take ownership or something like
that, you're so motivated to make sure it never happens
again. You will go and do things like I
mentioned. You know, I still look at
reports and dashboards. And to your point, at my level
probably shouldn't be doing thatas much as I do.
And it is definitely someone, it's definitely people on my
team's role and we'll come on tothis.
(13:40):
But there's an important role I have to play where I have the
room to own that stuff and then teach to make their own mistakes
because I can't because if I'm narrow constantly there, like
there's no room for those peopleto own that stuff.
And so, yeah, it's a good point.Yeah, yeah.
It's just a thought process. I have problems with that.
I have problem with delegating. I do a lot of things and I'm
(14:00):
like, why do I do this admin? I have the weeds of things when
you really shouldn't be. So I get that when you just want
things to be right, you do test things a certain way.
But then you don't necessarily give your team the opportunity
to learn that mistake or not even to learn from your mistake.
And I don't know, is it a story that you've ever shared with
(14:21):
your team in terms of because I think that's they might look and
be like, why is Matt always looking at the daily budgets And
maybe after they've listened to this episode?
Oh, that's why, Because is that something that you've ever
shared with your team? Is This is why I look into the
daily good? Question.
I'm not sure that's an example. I will say that they probably
(14:41):
don't know. They will now if you watch this,
but they probably don't know. I look at those reports as much
as I do. It's more like I will look at it
and it takes me two seconds. It's not like.
Yeah. I will look at that stuff and
it's more just making sure that the processes around the team
ensure they'll do that stuff. Yeah, so yeah.
And I'm not necessarily being like they don't know I'm looking
(15:01):
at or a certain pooping I. Will now read yeah, I think
which is a nice thing to for theteam to know that's and they'll
know the why. In fact, it's the I think it's
if they know and they just don'tknow the why, I think that's
where it can be dangerous. But if they know the why, I
think yeah, that story moves on.That really makes sense in their
(15:22):
head. And so you're managing your team
and you spoke about how your manager did not necessarily try
to cuddle you through this process.
He was just like, OK, this is what we messed up.
This is what we need to do. Bam.
Is that a good way, would you say, of approaching that?
Did that help you or would you have rather had a different
(15:43):
style in terms of how the manager approached the issue?
Yeah, good question. I think for me personally, that
was probably the right approach and I think as a manager myself,
I would probably do something similar to then.
That said, I think you probably also do tailored to the person,
but who is clearly you're very upset about it.
(16:06):
Then you probably take a slightly different approach to
make sure that doesn't that mistake doesn't really set them
back too much. On the flip side, there's
someone who is barely fazed by it and you probably need to make
it a bit clearer that this is a mistake and they happen again.
So yeah, generally middle of theroad, but I think probably
tailored depending on the individual.
(16:26):
Individual how they purchase. Yes I know, I think that there
is. This might make me sound so old,
but like the younger generation,I feel all right, well, when the
new, the newer, the old junior efforts that are coming.
Yeah, I do feel nervous for someof them that feel like, yeah,
(16:48):
like this broadcast is to show health share that mistakes can
happen, but it's not about beingLAX about them.
It's not about being like mistakes happen course or
whatever others do my bare minimum and how mistakes happen.
I think it's still important going with your best foot
forward and when the mistake happens, approach it.
(17:09):
It For me, it's like the analogy.
The person who has done wrong shouldn't be the one who decides
how, how the situation is approached.
Whether it's a strict matter is not a strict matter kind of
thing. If you've made, if you've made a
mistake, come owning it, come with a contract.
Oh my God, so sorry, I've done this.
(17:29):
Try not to do it again and showing that effect of how
you're going to improve your yourself with it afterwards,
which I think is what you're doing.
So regardless of that whole, yeah, your senior, you're still
looking at the daily thing. Imagine your manager, even if
you're not manager, you had if they listen to this episode,
they'd be proud. They'd probably like, oh, good
on man, good on money. Definitely learned his lesson
(17:51):
because he's still even a senior.
He's got he's still making sure that he looks at those daily
reports. All right.
Yeah, I probably will send it tohim, actually.
Well, I'll let you know his reaction.
I'd love to hear that. I definitely would, definitely
would. So let's do before we round up
this, that got great story that you just shared with us.
What's like your biggest takeaway that you'd like to
(18:13):
leave our audience with about that lesson in terms of not
making that mistake and how you approach it?
Yeah, I think, I think it probably covered the main things
like the ownership and accountability.
Yeah, getting through it, find the facts, communicating it
internally for sure externally if that's your responsibility,
getting that done as quickly as possible and making sure you
(18:34):
follow that step of fun facts, what's happened, why did it
happen, Communicate about the client and then tell them why
it's not going to happen again and move on from that.
I think more broadly, my advice generally in that area of spend
and performance is just it's just really just make sure
you've got eyes on that stuff iswhat that put in me was almost
like this is my money, so it's my money that's being spent.
(18:56):
I think when you have that attitude, you care more.
We look at the days more. I think just it makes you better
at your job as well. And I think by having that
attitude that really shines through the clients and clients
want to work with people who care about their business.
Absolutely. There are many ways to show up
and do that, but I think really treating it like you're a part
of this, maybe not your money, maybe that's be extreme, but
(19:19):
you've got a stake in making it up well and effectively.
I think it's really important. Yeah, no, absolutely.
Yeah, even like the whole like it's budget don't necessarily
treat you like it's your budget because we're not saving nice
hair. And that's what I know what
missed. Yeah, we're not seeing a nice
hair and that's why you're talking about mistakes is not a
wrong thing at all. But do show that you care.
(19:40):
Do show that look, this is a kinds budget entrusted in you
and it's all about proving that they have chosen the right
people to entrust and trust their money with.
So yeah, that's all very important.
Thank you so much Matt for that fantastic story and now
switching it the spotlight away from you.
Yeah, you're not the only one inour industry that has made
mistakes. They some of the mistakes that
(20:02):
you see we're not asking you to name names, but what are some of
the whole the some of the worst mistakes especially when like in
more recent years than you think.
Wow guys, the industry has gone on for a long enough that you
shouldn't be making these mistakes.
What are some of the mistakes that you see that most popular
ones, that you see that you'd like to touch?
Yeah, maybe a bit of an extension of what we've just
(20:23):
talked about, but performance stuff, so not noticing certain
negative trends, counting for longer than you should, we're
talking days. But even in those situations, I
think, I think everybody do I want to say this, what I want to
say. I think what's more important is
(20:43):
not necessarily the with the mistake you make, it's what you
learn from it. And then with light was again,
like I nearly said, everyone gets to make that one mistake.
The key thing is not making it twice.
So that's why I'm a bit hesitantto say, oh, you shouldn't make
this mistake. You shouldn't make that mistake
because I've probably made most of them and I'm still here.
(21:07):
I think yeah, the key thing is just learning from and not doing
it twice. Yeah, no, I totally agree with
you. The other thing I'd add to
that's right about the whole flying thing, the comparison I
had there was what I was learning and I got my early 20s.
There was, I find it before coming on, it was either a
magazine or a forum, and part ofone of the sections was mistakes
(21:28):
made by other pilots. And the whole premise was you
won't live long enough to make all the mistakes, have to learn
from other people. Now again, the stakes are very
different and that's what we do,but I think the idea of really
make treatment other people's mistakes is really important as
well. Yeah, you definitely want to
learn from other people's mistakes when it comes to
(21:49):
piloting. What about the mistakes that you
can walk away from and it comes to?
Yeah, in the pilot, That's the only ones that you want to dare
make. Since you are the expert in AI
here, you've got a proper university degree here on it.
I knew it's a course, but hey, it's a proper, it was a proper
(22:12):
course from the University of Texas.
Let's give them their props. Let's give you your props.
AI mistakes that you see that you'll that and what I'd love to
for you to get for our listenersis that not just AAI mistakes
that you've heard other people mention, the ones that are not
being talked about that you feellike, oh, I can't believe people
(22:32):
are not talking about this actually, because I think
there's a lot of AI talk. There's a lot of, oh, Gemini's
not doing this properly Chat GPCis not doing properly.
Oh yeah, you're not doing this right.
But I feel that could be possibly a distraction.
I'm not sure, maybe and maybe there isn't.
This could be a distraction fromactually what actually are the
big issues that people are not paying attention to yet.
(22:54):
Are there any of those that you've perceived?
The things that come to mind, I don't know if there are things
like a claim that nobody's talking about, but what comes to
mind is, is we're talking about AI and prophesizing what AI is
going to do in a certain industry when you're not really
in that industry, or at least you're not using it, like to a
large extent within the industry.
So, and what I notice is the people who are really using this
(23:17):
stuff and whether it's the LLMS,whether it's wide coding or
whatever it is, people who are in their industry doing this
stuff aren't talking about AI like it's going to replace
everything. Like they're seeing the limits
of the tools, they're understanding the opportunities,
they're quantifying what's possible and what's not
possible. And that just makes that makes
the whole conversation less emotional.
(23:37):
AI is going to take everything to more is what it can do.
Here's what it can't do. So I think anybody that talks
about AI replacing everything oreven just a large part, I'm
like, OK, how much you in the industry and how much you really
testing the tools and find the limits?
I've I've vibe code and don't love the term vibe code but.
(23:59):
You're not to be crazy or anything real, I just like
you're just going by vibes and. Oh God, I've used Tractor
Boutique or Gemini and then things like Rep Lovable and I
finished building something lastnight and it took me about four
weeks to build it by counting and it is not very stable at all
(24:21):
and it connects together a few different sources.
Yeah. Well, I've from my experience,
what I've found is if you don't have any coding knowledge, it'll
probably take even longer. You can write Python.
OK, so I know a little bit aboutwhat needs to connect to what
and how it needs to connect so Ican make sure the prompts
account for that. This will take me a long time
and it's still pretty shape. Maybe that's a reflection of
(24:43):
just my building ability, but I think if you're really trying to
do complex stuff, the best you're going to get to is like a
an MVP, a basic product that works a little bit, but it's
just using it. Yeah.
And again, that comes from testing this stuff, getting into
it, final limitations, find what's possible.
(25:05):
And I think the last thing I'd say is, and maybe I'm not super
qualified to talk about this in any great depth, but AI is, it's
still just math. You break down the algorithms.
It is just really complex, in some cases basic math, but just
built on top as well. I think, again, I'm not super
qualified to talk about it in depth about that in that way,
(25:27):
but I think when you break it down to that, you realise it
isn't necessarily super intelligence or artificial
intelligence. It's something slightly
different. The way it shows up.
Mathis itself looks kind of magic.
Yeah. Yeah.
But I think it's important to remember like the sort of basics
of it. Yeah, absolutely.
Remember the basics are when it's mats and it has so many
(25:47):
limitations. I think where you're just
talking up there about people over emphasising.
I think the SEO's have it worse because God, the amount of SEO
is dead. SEO is dead.
I think our the team in our the search engine and we're going to
do a like a webinar 2:30 EasternTime.
Literally I'm like very short Daddy Goodwin coming together
just being frustrated. I think they just saw an article
(26:09):
from in the New York Times and you're like, Oh my God, we're
done with this. I think we just had a percent.
We're going to go on the webinarand and just rant all about SCR
is not dead because that's why everybody is talking about it.
So I won't even put in the PPC live WhatsApp group lives and
even there's a careers area in it.
So it's saying, Oh, by the way, it's SCO dead because I'm
(26:31):
thinking of branching out from PPC and this was a subgroup of
SCO professionals helping each other.
And I was like, you're asking SCO professionals in this group
whether their jobs are obsolete.I don't understand those
questions. I think people just want to
sensationalise the conversation and feel like you're saying
something or big and thought provoking by saying, oh God,
(26:53):
that's serious that I think it'sa very lazy way to start the
conversation. But yeah, I think it's very, I
want to talk more to people likeyou who are trying one.
I know we hate the term vibe code in my vibe, creating what
you know, and if someone who's got like your AI experience got
your creating experience to create something that it's not
necessarily stable kind of thing.
(27:14):
I think there's hope for the fact that, yeah, digital
marketing will still need peoplethat have the brains to actually
know what their customers wants and actually use that properly
are going to we're still going to need the people who are
coders or decoders who are who know have the brains put all
these systems together. And yeah, humans are still going
(27:36):
to be needed in this system in in my opinion for sure.
Yeah. Just to add to that, sure,
Sometimes I break down the people who go to this stuff
generally fall into one or two. You're either you're eating
really learn more towards the marketing side, your
understanding fundamentals of marketing, how that shows up in
like paid search, or you're moreof like an algorithm person.
(28:00):
I just love finding out how to get more out of the system,
whether that's optimising Rs as or do key manual keyboard bits
back in the day or even now. It's like different bit
strategies or different campaignstructures.
You're an algorithm person. I think both of those type of
people are still going to be around, just want to do so
differently. There's going to be different
(28:21):
algorithms to optimise towards, yeah, be different inputs.
But the way you think and the way you are motivated to
optimise algorithms like that, that's still a really valuable
Skype that's going to stay around for a while, if not
become more valuable. And on the marketing side,
obviously how it all, how all this stuff translates from
marketing perspective and thingsyou do still will be super
(28:42):
valuable. So.
Yeah, absolutely. No, that's that there's I feel
like we've read off into a conversation that I'm like,
what? I literally will have love
another half an hour conversation about that.
But we're going to stay on trackand maybe we've got to invite
you, Matt, for another episode, talk more about this and stuff
(29:05):
because I feel that you just gota very sensible PRV about it,
just like it says. And I'm like, so yeah, honestly,
yeah. Matt, again, thank you so much
for joining the episode today. Before we leave you a very fun
non AI, non paid search anythingdigital marketing question.
What related if your PPC career were a movie, what would be the
(29:30):
title? This is probably the question I
spent most time trying to prep for.
Need girl. I had no idea so I did turn to
ChatGPT. I think my favourite ones were
the algorithm always wins. SK.
Your total honey. I shrunk the CPC.
And that's on the run I like. And then the last one, I'll
(29:52):
leave you with the good, the badand the bounce rate.
Oh wow, OK, I think like the my favourite 1 is Huggy I shrunk
the CPC because it's, it's a very positive way for like
consultants to be like this is what I'm going to help you with.
I shrunk. I'm here to help shrink your
CPCS. So that's all we're all talking
about. There's so many articles I wrote
about was like, Oh yeah, CPC's have gone up cost of growing up.
(30:14):
Yep. Beware, Google wants to take
your money. We know that already.
Nothing new there. So just hang on in there and
keep working for your clients revenue.
Keep owning your mistakes and yeah, keep thriving in our
industry anyway, man, not where can people.
Hey, you talk about, yeah, some of the lovely discoveries and
you have a podcast too as well, do you?
(30:35):
Yeah, paid search MIC, Spotify, YouTube, and then I'm pretty
active on LinkedIn. LinkedIn is probably the main
platform. Yeah, find me on there.
Amazing. We'll share the links for
everybody on that on the show notes.
So yeah, go follow Matt on all these exciting adventures he's
doing. And yeah, thank you so much,
Matt, for joining us today. Thanks, Arlene.
(30:56):
Alright then thank you so much Matt for sharing that very
honest and transparent experience of yours and giving
us a very great insight as to really how we should be
preparing for the people, the future of paid search, How we
should be with our mindset of the present of paid search.
About how algorithms and all this AI is complicate
complicated maths, but it is just maths.
(31:16):
And I feel like when you look atmaths, when you say maths, you
think to myself, can't be that simple.
But sometimes it is. And I really feel it does tie in
with what Garrett W Head said inour previous episode that really
it's about shit in, shit out. Excuse my French.
So yeah, it's about what you putin is what you're going to get
out. And Matt, it's all about
equation. One side has to be equal to it's
(31:38):
going to match the other side. Yeah, it's not that hard.
Use it to help the work that youdo.
But really, honestly, bring bring your brain into it.
And recently, if I've just before the recording this
episode, we I put up a blog on the PC Live site talking about
the future of AI and how PPC experts should be and what AI
(31:58):
really has taken in terms of thework that we do, but what AI
really will not take as well andhow PPC experts are still need
to be part of the solution for brands and when they want to do
digital advertising. So go check that out to give
yourself the confidence that youare still needed even with the
whole AI revolution. So yeah, for the full transcript
of this episode, particularly goto yeah podcast at PPC dot live.
(32:22):
You'll get the full transcript, show notes, everything and all
details about the whole talk. And yeah, and also PPC live
events there. There will be a watch Mccaulay
an online version of our PPC Live 17 events.
So go onto the PPC Live site or go to our YouTube page or our
LinkedIn page and you'll see therecording.
(32:43):
If you're listening to this after what's it, 3:00 PM UK time
or if you're listening to it after one, not 1:00 PM earlier
than one being 10:00 AM. If you're listening to after
10:00 AM Eastern Time, you want to check out the recording of
it. Otherwise, go check it out and
watch it live. We had three excellent talks
that we're going to replay to you and Aisha and Paul Salami
(33:03):
are going to be joining us live for a live Q&A from you if you'd
like to. So, yeah, so join us for that.
And also before I leave, I'm also delighted to share that I'm
taking on coaching clients. So if you want to really just
improve the confidence in yourself and in what you do in
terms of digital advertising andtake control of your career, why
don't you send me a message, send me Adm on LinkedIn and we
(33:26):
can chat about how to work with you on that.
So yes, I hope you've enjoyed the show and I look forward to
bringing more PPCF UPS and triumphs next week.
Thank you. Bye.
Hello and welcome to PPC Live, the podcast formerly known as
PPC Chat Roundup. My name is Anu, the founder of
PPC Live. And if you're used to hearing
from PPC experts about how to ensure that we are keeping up
with the ever changing landscape, don't worry, you are
still in the right place. But instead of relaying what the
PPC experts are saying, I'm bringing the PPC experts to you.
(00:26):
Every week I'm going to be speaking to a different PPC
expert about their biggest F up and how they've turned things
around. So we're talking heads of teams,
paid search directors and heads of departments who chair about
what went wrong, but how they overcame it and continue to be a
success in the industry till today.
(00:46):
So today we've got Matt chantingfrom one of the biggest global
agencies crowd. They've got a New York based,
they've got Auk base. And Matt himself talks about one
of his experiences from his early career, a story that he
doesn't even think that his current team may know of yet,
about him overspending and how that went about, what the
reaction from his manager was, how he was quite neutral, but it
(01:10):
actually worked for him. It's one of those not
one-size-fits-all. So yeah, she has some great
stories about that. And as someone who's actually, I
would say, probably one of the few people in our industry who
is highly educated in the area of the field, because I've
spoken to loads of people who did archaeology and are in
marketing and are doing it well.But he actually has AI education
(01:32):
experience. He's got a mini MBA as well.
So he's got some very amazingly intellectual advice to give give
us about the AI revolution and how we should approach the
future of paid search. Yeah, let's go speak to Matt.
Hello Matt, welcome to PPC Live The.
Podcast. Hi, thanks.
So great to meet you. Amazing.
Yeah, I see. Amazing a lot.
(01:53):
I'm sorry. I write everything.
Oh, Razor. That's my, that's my like, my
filler word. Yeah.
Imagine we met at estimates advanced like literally earlier
this year, first time in person.And it was just so lovely to
yeah. It's always great to meet other
very eager paid search professionals in our fields,
(02:15):
especially people who come to events.
I don't know, I think the peoplewho come to events are
different. We're different breed of people.
When actually it's always like we're suck of the punishment of
the whole talking about Google and we're not.
We know, OK, we need to have been on 9:00 to 5:00.
We really want to get involved and be in a room with all loads
of other people talking about it.
But I feel that's where you learn the most and that leads a
(02:35):
very talented team. A crowd there are, I know
they're quite on global because I feel I know you have US and
the UK. And yeah, Matt's got over a
decade of experience in digital marketing, bringing a blend of
data-driven expertise and a deepunderstanding of AI to the
table, enabling him to design and optimise strategies that
(02:56):
have driven business growth and enhanced customer engagement and
increasing in retention across various industries.
We, we are both like Alma Motorsof the marketing week, mini MBA
in marketing with Mark Britson, which is lovely.
We need to send this to him and be like, yeah, both of us
(03:16):
graduates of his university cometogether and we're still credit
him for his, the fantastic learnings that we got from his
mini MBA. He's also done an AI as in Matt,
not Mark. Now I think Matt, Matt Ryan has
done an AI machine learning course at the University of
Texas at Austin, some lovely, interesting facts.
We had a sing song beforehand because I was like, Matt is like
(03:36):
an Englishman in New York, like the Englishman in New York that
stinks sang about. Yeah.
He's one of those famous birds, loves to travel and he wanted to
be a pilot at some point. I find that very interesting.
He says he's going to weed that into the story that he's going
to talk about. So I'm really looking forward to
that. And at some point, he tried his
hand at stand up comedy. You just did it for one, one
(03:58):
show. Why, Matt, why did you deprive
New York of your comedic skills?Because it didn't go terrible at
feel things like that. You quit while you're ahead.
So going well, that's it one andtwo.
I don't know, I feel like the paid search field, if AI takes
over all our roles. I think that going back into
(04:19):
comedy though, we need to laugh.Our world needs a bit more
laughter. So maybe think about.
My earnings would plummet if I did that.
They're OK. Everything come through that
for. Oh, let's say no, let's say no.
Oh, OK. Yeah.
It's this is like, really, again, really grateful that
you're on this podcast with us. And because, yeah, talking about
(04:40):
mistakes is not something a lot of other podcasts do.
I don't think any other podcasts.
I'm not listening to any other podcasts where it's all about
talking about errors and failures.
And we see a lot of people bragging about their work, which
understandably, that's how you make it.
That's how you gain your new clients.
But I think there's also room tobe human.
(05:00):
We never leave on a defeated note.
We're going to going to talk about what what was the defining
thing that turned it around and continue to make you a trusted
leader in the field. Yeah.
Let's get into a no. No more rambling for me.
Let's hear from Matt. Matt, what's the effort where
you'd like to share with us today?
So I want to 1st to this question.
(05:20):
First of all, thanks for having me on.
I do think it's great to do thisand share failures because as
you rightly say, if people don'ttalk about it enough, it can
feel like you're the only personwho's making these mistakes,
which is far from the truth. I've been in the industry long
enough to have more mistakes. I'd like to admit.
The one that comes to mind though, as the first one that
really impacted me, taught me a lot, was I think I'd started a
(05:45):
crowd. I've been here for about a year,
so this was seven years ago and I guess some additional context,
I came into paid search as a proper job when I was about
29th, 3rd. So I felt like I was having to
start again and not in a new industry.
So I come from affiliate marketing in affiliate
marketing. Prior to that been made
redundant, had to start getting paid search.
So it's a bit of a catch up. Needed to really do well.
(06:09):
And I was on a client was gamingdeveloper in the UK, pretty big
name and they have this one title and budget for it per
month with I think we've got 20 KA month.
And I realised on the first day of the next month that I'd
overspent by 2000 lbs. And as soon as I realised that
(06:30):
it was worst shooting in the world.
It's all even just trying to go back there.
It's it's so horrible and remembering back.
I think it probably like a period of maybe like 20 minutes,
thirty minutes where I sat within myself and tried to just
deal with the emotion and then fact find what happened, why did
it happen? And it was like, OK, now I need
(06:51):
to book a meeting with my boss, with James at the time.
Had a meet with him later that day, sat down and was like,
there's no point in trying to bearound it.
And he was very, he was very matter of fact about it.
He didn't try to say, oh, it's OK.
I think he realised that it is an area you need to kind of
learn from. He gathered the facts and then
(07:14):
we communicated to the client pretty quickly.
And that was big learning for meis that with these mistakes, you
kind of have to figure out what's happened, get that, find
out what I have and then as quickly as possible, go to the
client, communicate it, here's what happened, here's what's
never going to happen again. Just deal with it very quickly.
And I think because you do that very fast, it's not over, but
(07:34):
like go through the process pretty quickly.
The only person made me feel slightly better was the the
client lead on the on our side of the time sent.
He said he reassured me that he'd seen a previous or maybe
even he himself had made a previous of spend.
It was like 50 times more than that.
And that was when I realised, OK, I'm not the worst person
(07:56):
that paid search and like this to happen.
So yeah, that that's the one I think of.
OK, So what was the what caused the overspend to actually
happen? Was like a targeting issue or
like a budget laid daily budget limits was not set right?
What was the thing that had gonewrong?
Yeah, I think from memory it wasmiscommunication.
(08:16):
I think I maybe thought it was, it was 22 and it wasn't, it was
20. Yeah.
So I from memory, I think I just, I misunderstood.
And then when it I think the wayit happened was I checked the
first day of the next month, noticed that actually the comms
were it was, it was 20 or 22 andthat was spent.
Yeah, my my misunderstanding on the budget and.
(08:40):
Then not good. No, not good.
Yeah, because you almost have a double decline when I think
you're not listening to them when the briefing that they've
put in and all that kind of stuff.
OK, Yeah. And what you said your manager
was very matter of fact, did it,But how did you feel about it?
How did you feel in that meeting?
Was it a bit like a awful mess that you felt or afterwards was
(09:03):
he like, OK, let's just learn and move on?
I think eventually learn and move on, but it took a while.
Probably he'll wished and I think that the first moment it
happened in first few days did feel pretty terrible.
I think because my manager was very matter of fact about it.
He wasn't like, oh, this is terrible.
It's really bad. He wasn't like, don't worry
about it. He was just very middle of the
(09:24):
road. You couldn't really tell what he
was thinking. I think that because the manager
and I can appreciate that now, his main thought was like, how
do I fix this? How do I fix?
He doesn't really care necessarily about blame.
It's just like, how do you fix it?
So I think because of that, it didn't, he didn't make me feel
any better or worse. That makes sense.
OK. I think I appreciate it because
(09:44):
you do need to that made sure that I was more accountable and
took ownership of that, which isreally important for them
learning. And I can tell you now there are
things I still do today, accounts there are as a result
of that. Happening, OK.
Seven years ago, so. What are those things?
What are those things that specifically that you make sure
that you do now because of that story?
(10:05):
Yeah, though the crowd, we have pretty good level of like
intraday and day reporting. And so that's emailed to us, we
get alerts, we get different dashboards.
So we've got plenty of places tolook at hourly and daily data
and all the time, certainly first thing in the morning is
one of the things, first things I do.
And then during the day on certain accounts, I will look at
(10:27):
the hourly reports to understandwhat's going on.
Yeah, yeah. So yes, still in the detail a
little bit. Yeah.
A. Lot of the detail, yeah.
Because I don't know, like I feel that could be because it's
someone's role definitely to be in the detail, whether that's
your role, I'd say I'd argue maybe it's not in terms of or
(10:49):
yeah, I don't know. Look, I didn't do a comment
anymore, so do not take it. That's for me.
And So what role is for different people in different
teams. I know it can be very different
now with, yeah, AI revolution, all that kind of stuff going on.
But I'd also say that I'd be interested to know that what's
how that impacts client communication, even like how
does that impact client processes?
(11:10):
Because what, what stuck out to me was the fact that, OK, maybe
you did see that you thought it was 22, you thought it was 22 K.
And I say, for example, it was actually 20K.
Is there anything in terms of like actually the crook, the
client processing on terms of the detailing as to what the
budget is for the month, for theyear that you do differently?
(11:33):
Yeah, but both me personally andas as any agency grows and
develops, the processes and automation just increases.
So it's almost, I'm not going tosay it's impossible to make that
mistake again because I really shouldn't say that.
But there are certainly a lot more processes in place as a
company that gets larger. Yeah, there's places where there
(11:54):
are centralised records that have budgets, both exteriors,
the platform than in the platform of you put cap budgets
now and do that. I was thinking about this
earlier. I do feel like overspends
generally seem less common and Idon't know if that's platforms
of change slightly and it's lesslike it's harder to do that now,
but I can't really think of why that would be because on
(12:14):
campaign budgets can still spend200 percent or double.
Double them. I was going to say, when you say
overspend is not possible, I'm like, do you want which platform
are you talking about? Google or in the blink of an ID
let's say. It's definitely still possible,
yeah. All those processes and spread
documentations meant that it's just far less likely now.
(12:37):
It's far less likely. No, that's good.
Now what's your advice for for someone going through this right
now? Like someone's like just been in
the middle of they have all thisband by a couple of grand.
You're junior and they're all you're really nervous.
What's your advice to them? Great question.
I would say, first of all, don'tthink you're the only person in
(12:58):
the world that's ever done that,made that mistake and those
people have still gone to have great careers.
They're very smart people. You, it is always good to take
ownership and accountability, try and make excuses or pass it
off, own up to what mistake and depending on your, your part in
it all. But I think that's really
important because that helps youto, to internalise it and then
(13:19):
make sure that it doesn't happenever again.
Like you, when you take ownership or something like
that, you're so motivated to make sure it never happens
again. You will go and do things like I
mentioned. You know, I still look at
reports and dashboards. And to your point, at my level
probably shouldn't be doing thatas much as I do.
And it is definitely someone, it's definitely people on my
team's role and we'll come on tothis.
(13:40):
But there's an important role I have to play where I have the
room to own that stuff and then teach to make their own mistakes
because I can't because if I'm narrow constantly there, like
there's no room for those peopleto own that stuff.
And so, yeah, it's a good point.Yeah, yeah.
It's just a thought process. I have problems with that.
I have problem with delegating. I do a lot of things and I'm
(14:00):
like, why do I do this admin? I have the weeds of things when
you really shouldn't be. So I get that when you just want
things to be right, you do test things a certain way.
But then you don't necessarily give your team the opportunity
to learn that mistake or not even to learn from your mistake.
And I don't know, is it a story that you've ever shared with
(14:21):
your team in terms of because I think that's they might look and
be like, why is Matt always looking at the daily budgets And
maybe after they've listened to this episode?
Oh, that's why, Because is that something that you've ever
shared with your team? Is This is why I look into the
daily good? Question.
I'm not sure that's an example. I will say that they probably
(14:41):
don't know. They will now if you watch this,
but they probably don't know. I look at those reports as much
as I do. It's more like I will look at it
and it takes me two seconds. It's not like.
Yeah. I will look at that stuff and
it's more just making sure that the processes around the team
ensure they'll do that stuff. Yeah, so yeah.
And I'm not necessarily being like they don't know I'm looking
(15:01):
at or a certain pooping I. Will now read yeah, I think
which is a nice thing to for theteam to know that's and they'll
know the why. In fact, it's the I think it's
if they know and they just don'tknow the why, I think that's
where it can be dangerous. But if they know the why, I
think yeah, that story moves on.That really makes sense in their
(15:22):
head. And so you're managing your team
and you spoke about how your manager did not necessarily try
to cuddle you through this process.
He was just like, OK, this is what we messed up.
This is what we need to do. Bam.
Is that a good way, would you say, of approaching that?
Did that help you or would you have rather had a different
(15:43):
style in terms of how the manager approached the issue?
Yeah, good question. I think for me personally, that
was probably the right approach and I think as a manager myself,
I would probably do something similar to then.
That said, I think you probably also do tailored to the person,
but who is clearly you're very upset about it.
(16:06):
Then you probably take a slightly different approach to
make sure that doesn't that mistake doesn't really set them
back too much. On the flip side, there's
someone who is barely fazed by it and you probably need to make
it a bit clearer that this is a mistake and they happen again.
So yeah, generally middle of theroad, but I think probably
tailored depending on the individual.
(16:26):
Individual how they purchase. Yes I know, I think that there
is. This might make me sound so old,
but like the younger generation,I feel all right, well, when the
new, the newer, the old junior efforts that are coming.
Yeah, I do feel nervous for someof them that feel like, yeah,
(16:48):
like this broadcast is to show health share that mistakes can
happen, but it's not about beingLAX about them.
It's not about being like mistakes happen course or
whatever others do my bare minimum and how mistakes happen.
I think it's still important going with your best foot
forward and when the mistake happens, approach it.
(17:09):
It For me, it's like the analogy.
The person who has done wrong shouldn't be the one who decides
how, how the situation is approached.
Whether it's a strict matter is not a strict matter kind of
thing. If you've made, if you've made a
mistake, come owning it, come with a contract.
Oh my God, so sorry, I've done this.
(17:29):
Try not to do it again and showing that effect of how
you're going to improve your yourself with it afterwards,
which I think is what you're doing.
So regardless of that whole, yeah, your senior, you're still
looking at the daily thing. Imagine your manager, even if
you're not manager, you had if they listen to this episode,
they'd be proud. They'd probably like, oh, good
on man, good on money. Definitely learned his lesson
(17:51):
because he's still even a senior.
He's got he's still making sure that he looks at those daily
reports. All right.
Yeah, I probably will send it tohim, actually.
Well, I'll let you know his reaction.
I'd love to hear that. I definitely would, definitely
would. So let's do before we round up
this, that got great story that you just shared with us.
What's like your biggest takeaway that you'd like to
(18:13):
leave our audience with about that lesson in terms of not
making that mistake and how you approach it?
Yeah, I think, I think it probably covered the main things
like the ownership and accountability.
Yeah, getting through it, find the facts, communicating it
internally for sure externally if that's your responsibility,
getting that done as quickly as possible and making sure you
(18:34):
follow that step of fun facts, what's happened, why did it
happen, Communicate about the client and then tell them why
it's not going to happen again and move on from that.
I think more broadly, my advice generally in that area of spend
and performance is just it's just really just make sure
you've got eyes on that stuff iswhat that put in me was almost
like this is my money, so it's my money that's being spent.
(18:56):
I think when you have that attitude, you care more.
We look at the days more. I think just it makes you better
at your job as well. And I think by having that
attitude that really shines through the clients and clients
want to work with people who care about their business.
Absolutely. There are many ways to show up
and do that, but I think really treating it like you're a part
of this, maybe not your money, maybe that's be extreme, but
(19:19):
you've got a stake in making it up well and effectively.
I think it's really important. Yeah, no, absolutely.
Yeah, even like the whole like it's budget don't necessarily
treat you like it's your budget because we're not saving nice
hair. And that's what I know what
missed. Yeah, we're not seeing a nice
hair and that's why you're talking about mistakes is not a
wrong thing at all. But do show that you care.
(19:40):
Do show that look, this is a kinds budget entrusted in you
and it's all about proving that they have chosen the right
people to entrust and trust their money with.
So yeah, that's all very important.
Thank you so much Matt for that fantastic story and now
switching it the spotlight away from you.
Yeah, you're not the only one inour industry that has made
mistakes. They some of the mistakes that
(20:02):
you see we're not asking you to name names, but what are some of
the whole the some of the worst mistakes especially when like in
more recent years than you think.
Wow guys, the industry has gone on for a long enough that you
shouldn't be making these mistakes.
What are some of the mistakes that you see that most popular
ones, that you see that you'd like to touch?
Yeah, maybe a bit of an extension of what we've just
(20:23):
talked about, but performance stuff, so not noticing certain
negative trends, counting for longer than you should, we're
talking days. But even in those situations, I
think, I think everybody do I want to say this, what I want to
say. I think what's more important is
(20:43):
not necessarily the with the mistake you make, it's what you
learn from it. And then with light was again,
like I nearly said, everyone gets to make that one mistake.
The key thing is not making it twice.
So that's why I'm a bit hesitantto say, oh, you shouldn't make
this mistake. You shouldn't make that mistake
because I've probably made most of them and I'm still here.
(21:07):
I think yeah, the key thing is just learning from and not doing
it twice. Yeah, no, I totally agree with
you. The other thing I'd add to
that's right about the whole flying thing, the comparison I
had there was what I was learning and I got my early 20s.
There was, I find it before coming on, it was either a
magazine or a forum, and part ofone of the sections was mistakes
(21:28):
made by other pilots. And the whole premise was you
won't live long enough to make all the mistakes, have to learn
from other people. Now again, the stakes are very
different and that's what we do,but I think the idea of really
make treatment other people's mistakes is really important as
well. Yeah, you definitely want to
learn from other people's mistakes when it comes to
(21:49):
piloting. What about the mistakes that you
can walk away from and it comes to?
Yeah, in the pilot, That's the only ones that you want to dare
make. Since you are the expert in AI
here, you've got a proper university degree here on it.
I knew it's a course, but hey, it's a proper, it was a proper
(22:12):
course from the University of Texas.
Let's give them their props. Let's give you your props.
AI mistakes that you see that you'll that and what I'd love to
for you to get for our listenersis that not just AAI mistakes
that you've heard other people mention, the ones that are not
being talked about that you feellike, oh, I can't believe people
(22:32):
are not talking about this actually, because I think
there's a lot of AI talk. There's a lot of, oh, Gemini's
not doing this properly Chat GPCis not doing properly.
Oh yeah, you're not doing this right.
But I feel that could be possibly a distraction.
I'm not sure, maybe and maybe there isn't.
This could be a distraction fromactually what actually are the
big issues that people are not paying attention to yet.
(22:54):
Are there any of those that you've perceived?
The things that come to mind, I don't know if there are things
like a claim that nobody's talking about, but what comes to
mind is, is we're talking about AI and prophesizing what AI is
going to do in a certain industry when you're not really
in that industry, or at least you're not using it, like to a
large extent within the industry.
So, and what I notice is the people who are really using this
(23:17):
stuff and whether it's the LLMS,whether it's wide coding or
whatever it is, people who are in their industry doing this
stuff aren't talking about AI like it's going to replace
everything. Like they're seeing the limits
of the tools, they're understanding the opportunities,
they're quantifying what's possible and what's not
possible. And that just makes that makes
the whole conversation less emotional.
(23:37):
AI is going to take everything to more is what it can do.
Here's what it can't do. So I think anybody that talks
about AI replacing everything oreven just a large part, I'm
like, OK, how much you in the industry and how much you really
testing the tools and find the limits?
I've I've vibe code and don't love the term vibe code but.
(23:59):
You're not to be crazy or anything real, I just like
you're just going by vibes and. Oh God, I've used Tractor
Boutique or Gemini and then things like Rep Lovable and I
finished building something lastnight and it took me about four
weeks to build it by counting and it is not very stable at all
(24:21):
and it connects together a few different sources.
Yeah. Well, I've from my experience,
what I've found is if you don't have any coding knowledge, it'll
probably take even longer. You can write Python.
OK, so I know a little bit aboutwhat needs to connect to what
and how it needs to connect so Ican make sure the prompts
account for that. This will take me a long time
and it's still pretty shape. Maybe that's a reflection of
(24:43):
just my building ability, but I think if you're really trying to
do complex stuff, the best you're going to get to is like a
an MVP, a basic product that works a little bit, but it's
just using it. Yeah.
And again, that comes from testing this stuff, getting into
it, final limitations, find what's possible.
(25:05):
And I think the last thing I'd say is, and maybe I'm not super
qualified to talk about this in any great depth, but AI is, it's
still just math. You break down the algorithms.
It is just really complex, in some cases basic math, but just
built on top as well. I think, again, I'm not super
qualified to talk about it in depth about that in that way,
(25:27):
but I think when you break it down to that, you realise it
isn't necessarily super intelligence or artificial
intelligence. It's something slightly
different. The way it shows up.
Mathis itself looks kind of magic.
Yeah. Yeah.
But I think it's important to remember like the sort of basics
of it. Yeah, absolutely.
Remember the basics are when it's mats and it has so many
(25:47):
limitations. I think where you're just
talking up there about people over emphasising.
I think the SEO's have it worse because God, the amount of SEO
is dead. SEO is dead.
I think our the team in our the search engine and we're going to
do a like a webinar 2:30 EasternTime.
Literally I'm like very short Daddy Goodwin coming together
just being frustrated. I think they just saw an article
(26:09):
from in the New York Times and you're like, Oh my God, we're
done with this. I think we just had a percent.
We're going to go on the webinarand and just rant all about SCR
is not dead because that's why everybody is talking about it.
So I won't even put in the PPC live WhatsApp group lives and
even there's a careers area in it.
So it's saying, Oh, by the way, it's SCO dead because I'm
(26:31):
thinking of branching out from PPC and this was a subgroup of
SCO professionals helping each other.
And I was like, you're asking SCO professionals in this group
whether their jobs are obsolete.I don't understand those
questions. I think people just want to
sensationalise the conversation and feel like you're saying
something or big and thought provoking by saying, oh God,
(26:53):
that's serious that I think it'sa very lazy way to start the
conversation. But yeah, I think it's very, I
want to talk more to people likeyou who are trying one.
I know we hate the term vibe code in my vibe, creating what
you know, and if someone who's got like your AI experience got
your creating experience to create something that it's not
necessarily stable kind of thing.
(27:14):
I think there's hope for the fact that, yeah, digital
marketing will still need peoplethat have the brains to actually
know what their customers wants and actually use that properly
are going to we're still going to need the people who are
coders or decoders who are who know have the brains put all
these systems together. And yeah, humans are still going
(27:36):
to be needed in this system in in my opinion for sure.
Yeah. Just to add to that, sure,
Sometimes I break down the people who go to this stuff
generally fall into one or two. You're either you're eating
really learn more towards the marketing side, your
understanding fundamentals of marketing, how that shows up in
like paid search, or you're moreof like an algorithm person.
(28:00):
I just love finding out how to get more out of the system,
whether that's optimising Rs as or do key manual keyboard bits
back in the day or even now. It's like different bit
strategies or different campaignstructures.
You're an algorithm person. I think both of those type of
people are still going to be around, just want to do so
differently. There's going to be different
(28:21):
algorithms to optimise towards, yeah, be different inputs.
But the way you think and the way you are motivated to
optimise algorithms like that, that's still a really valuable
Skype that's going to stay around for a while, if not
become more valuable. And on the marketing side,
obviously how it all, how all this stuff translates from
marketing perspective and thingsyou do still will be super
(28:42):
valuable. So.
Yeah, absolutely. No, that's that there's I feel
like we've read off into a conversation that I'm like,
what? I literally will have love
another half an hour conversation about that.
But we're going to stay on trackand maybe we've got to invite
you, Matt, for another episode, talk more about this and stuff
(29:05):
because I feel that you just gota very sensible PRV about it,
just like it says. And I'm like, so yeah, honestly,
yeah. Matt, again, thank you so much
for joining the episode today. Before we leave you a very fun
non AI, non paid search anythingdigital marketing question.
What related if your PPC career were a movie, what would be the
(29:30):
title? This is probably the question I
spent most time trying to prep for.
Need girl. I had no idea so I did turn to
ChatGPT. I think my favourite ones were
the algorithm always wins. SK.
Your total honey. I shrunk the CPC.
And that's on the run I like. And then the last one, I'll
(29:52):
leave you with the good, the badand the bounce rate.
Oh wow, OK, I think like the my favourite 1 is Huggy I shrunk
the CPC because it's, it's a very positive way for like
consultants to be like this is what I'm going to help you with.
I shrunk. I'm here to help shrink your
CPCS. So that's all we're all talking
about. There's so many articles I wrote
about was like, Oh yeah, CPC's have gone up cost of growing up.
(30:14):
Yep. Beware, Google wants to take
your money. We know that already.
Nothing new there. So just hang on in there and
keep working for your clients revenue.
Keep owning your mistakes and yeah, keep thriving in our
industry anyway, man, not where can people.
Hey, you talk about, yeah, some of the lovely discoveries and
you have a podcast too as well, do you?
(30:35):
Yeah, paid search MIC, Spotify, YouTube, and then I'm pretty
active on LinkedIn. LinkedIn is probably the main
platform. Yeah, find me on there.
Amazing. We'll share the links for
everybody on that on the show notes.
So yeah, go follow Matt on all these exciting adventures he's
doing. And yeah, thank you so much,
Matt, for joining us today. Thanks, Arlene.
(30:56):
Alright then thank you so much Matt for sharing that very
honest and transparent experience of yours and giving
us a very great insight as to really how we should be
preparing for the people, the future of paid search, How we
should be with our mindset of the present of paid search.
About how algorithms and all this AI is complicate
complicated maths, but it is just maths.
(31:16):
And I feel like when you look atmaths, when you say maths, you
think to myself, can't be that simple.
But sometimes it is. And I really feel it does tie in
with what Garrett W Head said inour previous episode that really
it's about shit in, shit out. Excuse my French.
So yeah, it's about what you putin is what you're going to get
out. And Matt, it's all about
equation. One side has to be equal to it's
(31:38):
going to match the other side. Yeah, it's not that hard.
Use it to help the work that youdo.
But really, honestly, bring bring your brain into it.
And recently, if I've just before the recording this
episode, we I put up a blog on the PC Live site talking about
the future of AI and how PPC experts should be and what AI
(31:58):
really has taken in terms of thework that we do, but what AI
really will not take as well andhow PPC experts are still need
to be part of the solution for brands and when they want to do
digital advertising. So go check that out to give
yourself the confidence that youare still needed even with the
whole AI revolution. So yeah, for the full transcript
of this episode, particularly goto yeah podcast at PPC dot live.
(32:22):
You'll get the full transcript, show notes, everything and all
details about the whole talk. And yeah, and also PPC live
events there. There will be a watch Mccaulay
an online version of our PPC Live 17 events.
So go onto the PPC Live site or go to our YouTube page or our
LinkedIn page and you'll see therecording.
(32:43):
If you're listening to this after what's it, 3:00 PM UK time
or if you're listening to it after one, not 1:00 PM earlier
than one being 10:00 AM. If you're listening to after
10:00 AM Eastern Time, you want to check out the recording of
it. Otherwise, go check it out and
watch it live. We had three excellent talks
that we're going to replay to you and Aisha and Paul Salami
(33:03):
are going to be joining us live for a live Q&A from you if you'd
like to. So, yeah, so join us for that.
And also before I leave, I'm also delighted to share that I'm
taking on coaching clients. So if you want to really just
improve the confidence in yourself and in what you do in
terms of digital advertising andtake control of your career, why
don't you send me a message, send me Adm on LinkedIn and we
(33:26):
can chat about how to work with you on that.
So yes, I hope you've enjoyed the show and I look forward to
bringing more PPCF UPS and triumphs next week.
Thank you. Bye.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.