June 28, 2025 • 46 mins
Ever wondered why your club's racket department seems financially constrained? In this eye-opening episode, consultant and racket management expert Ed Shanaphy lifts the curtain on the numbers rarely discussed in polite club company.
The financial anatomy of a racket department is more complex than most realize. Shanaphy reveals that nationally, racket departments typically receive just 3% of a club's overall revenue – translating to about $300,000 for a club generating $10 million. More critically, payroll shouldn't exceed 55% of that figure, leaving just $165,000 to staff an entire department. These constraints explain why directors must be creative with limited resources.
Rather than defaulting to discounts, Shanaphy advocates strategic revenue growth through thoughtful promotions. "If you come to your ladies practice, 50% off Sophie Bella clothing," he suggests as an example that drives both participation and sales. This cross-selling approach delivers more value than random price cuts while building stronger member engagement.
The conversation explores compensation structures, housing considerations, and how top professionals approach the business side of racket sports. Shanifee draws important parallels to golf management, noting that understanding operations beyond teaching is crucial for long-term success. "I strung a lot of rackets at midnight so members had them at 6am the next day," he recalls, emphasizing how these experiences shape exceptional club professionals.
Looking toward 2025, Shanaphy identifies dynamic pricing as an emerging trend. Just as hotels and airlines adjust prices based on demand, forward-thinking clubs are considering charging premium rates during peak hours while offering discounts during traditionally slower periods. This approach maximizes both revenue and facility usage – though implementation requires sensitivity at member-owned clubs.
Whether you're managing rackets at a prestigious club or simply curious about the business behind the sport, this conversation provides invaluable insights into creating sustainable, profitable racket programs that enhance the overall club experience.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hey everybody, welcome to the Private Club
Radio Show, where we give youthe scoop on all things private
golf and country clubs, frommastering leadership and
management, food and beverageexcellence, member engagement
secrets, board governance andeverything in between, all while
keeping it fun and light.
Whether you're a club veteranjust getting your feet wet or
somewhere in the middle, you arein the right place.
(00:20):
I'm your host, denny Corby.
Welcome to the show.
What do payroll percentages,pickleball courts and windex
have in common?
Nah, it's not the start ofanother bad dad joke.
It's another day in the mind ofEd Shanifee, and in this
episode we sit down with one ofthe most honest, entertaining
and wickedly smart minds in thebusiness.
He's from New England, so hehad to say wickedly smart.
(00:42):
Ed is a consultant, a coach, aclub pro lifer and possibly the
only guy who can make racketdepartment budgeting actually
fun to listen to.
Ed's been in the trenches, fromstringing rackets at midnight
to negotiating club contracts,to moderating panels at national
tennis conferences.
He's the real deal and he's notafraid to say the quiet numbers
(01:04):
out loud.
He's been on the show beforeand we're excited to have him
back.
We get into why your racketdepartment might be accidentally
bleeding money, what a $3,000racket budget really gets you.
And, spoiler alert, it's not aRolex, which is really
unfortunate.
We also go over what clubs aredoing right and totally wrong
when it comes to hiring andbudgeting for your rackets.
(01:26):
We talk about how to stretchyour resources without snapping
your strings.
We go over dynamic pricing,club politics and really all of
this is just how to turn astruggling rackets department
around without slashing pricesor tossing out discounts like
it's candy, because that's justnot fun and not profitable.
And I am super stoked to diveinto this episode with Ed
(01:46):
because we just go over the realstuff.
It's really good and I can'twait.
Before we dive in, a quickthanks to some of our show
partners.
You hear about them in the adsKenneth's member vetting, golf
Life Navigators, members, firstClub, capital Group, concert
Golf Partners, as well as myself, the denny corby experience.
There's excitement, there'smystery.
(02:08):
Also there's magic, mindreading and comedy, a lot of
laughs, gasps and holy craps.
If you want to have one of themost fun member event nights for
your club, head on over todennycorbycom and then, really
quick, I gotta tell you aboutsomething really special and
that I'm very passionate aboutand super excited for it's
something that I'm puttingtogether on Monday, september
(02:31):
22nd.
It's called Management in Motionand honestly, it's not your
typical leadership event.
It's happening at MonticelloMotor Club and it's for private
club professionals who want tolearn, connect and maybe burn a
little rubber along the wayThink drag racing, high-speed
runs, drifting, karting and,yeah, some killer leadership
(02:53):
talks as well.
This is the only leadershipevent where you learn
high-octane lessons, thenliterally hit the gas.
It's part leadership summit,part track day and 100%
unforgettable, with educationand real lessons from other club
professionals, but not justthat club professionals who also
go on the track.
So we're going to talk abouthow club leadership relates to
(03:15):
what we're doing on the track.
And the track day.
It is going to be absolutelyinsane.
All your food is included, Ihave a poker night, there's
prizes, there's giveaways.
This is literally unlike anyother club management event
retreat, whatever you want tocall it.
You've done.
I'm super stoked.
If you want to learn a littlebit more, head on over to
(03:36):
privateclubradiocom slashmanagement in motion, or just
privateclubradiocom slash MIM,m-i-m for management in Motion.
There's a quick little video onthere, two minutes.
Check it out.
It'll give you all the details.
I promise this will be one ofthe most fun things you will do
all year, guaranteed.
And this event is exclusive andlimited to only 50 people, so
(04:00):
make sure you sign up.
Enough about that, though.
Well, I do want you to come, sodon't forget it.
Up enough about that though.
Well, I do want you to come, sodon't forget it.
But enough about that.
Let's get to the episode.
Private club radio listeners.
Let's welcome back to the showed shanify.
Speaker 2 (04:11):
What was that panel on we?
You know they asked us to likethey asked us about patricio
mistrano and myself were bothleading directors.
We were.
Now we've both left direct, youknow, left that and gone on to
consulting.
So they wanted to like talkabout being a director.
So we made it the challenge,the challenges facing a director
in today's modern businessworld.
(04:32):
We try to focus on business.
You know those conferencesreally have a lot of uh seminars
on how to, how to coach, whatwording to use, how to you know
new programming ideas and wetried to really focus on
business.
Like percentages of payrollright, like total gross revenues
of a club versus your budgetfor racket's department.
(04:52):
What should that be compared toyour gross club revenue, food
and beverage budget?
Those kinds of things.
Speaker 1 (04:59):
The stuff that people want to know and should know,
but no one talks about.
Speaker 2 (05:03):
Exactly, I mean, and I shared a couple of big numbers
and people are like, whoa,that's a great number.
Thanks, ed.
Speaker 1 (05:08):
What can you?
Can you share the numbers?
What are those numbers?
Speaker 2 (05:12):
My number is is in terms of payroll right.
So anytime I look at my grossrevenue for my, my department,
payroll cannot be over 55%.
And when I say payroll I alsomean like total cost of
employees.
Like, for example, um, ifyou're going to include housing,
(05:34):
if you have to house youremployees, that's part of for me
, that's part of payroll.
Speaker 1 (05:38):
Okay, so so can you, can you like break it down?
Can you give like, let's justsay it's a club doing 50 million
or so, you know, or like, canyou?
Give like a fake scenario oflike, of, like, the breakdown
from like the large number downto like the rackets.
And then what?
What you're?
Speaker 2 (05:52):
talking about yeah, so so basically, if exactly
right, so say you're at a, sayyour club's a million dollars,
just to make it easy, right,million dollars.
I was trying to sound bougiewith 50, but yeah, a million is
much better.
Bougie with 50, but yeah, amillion is much better.
Okay, I mean, I'm just just inpercentage wise of that total
club revenue, the the racketsdepartment budget.
It should be higher, butnational average is three
(06:13):
percent of that, so you would beat 300 000.
Speaker 1 (06:17):
Crazy small right well, no less than that right.
Speaker 2 (06:22):
Yeah, you're right, sorry.
Uh, 30 000, yeah, so let's doit.
Let's do a 10 million.
Let me just get my calculatorout here.
Speaker 1 (06:27):
It's early in the morning I'm horrible at math too
, and I was like wait a second,wait a second, let's do 10
million right.
Speaker 2 (06:35):
10 million, I think it's stiffed.
I'm gonna, I'm doing it on mycalculator.
10 million times, uh, threepercent, three hundred thousand
dollars, that's what I mean.
10 million dollars is your fullrevenue, club's revenue, food
and beverage, everything golf.
Your budget for your racketsdepartment is $300,000.
That's the national average.
Now, out of that, 55% is yourmax for payroll $165,000.
(07:00):
It's not a lot, is it?
So that's where we're reallysqueezed as a rackets department
.
Speaker 1 (07:08):
Because in that also you probably have to account for
you know you can't just hireone person at that number or two
people at half, that you haveto go less because of insurances
and just you know all the otherthings I mean.
Speaker 2 (07:22):
I look at you know travel expenses.
You know I pay my guys.
They're coming into the clubsfor the summer.
I pay their expenses to go toget there.
So yeah, there are costs there.
You can say that's a cost ofdoing business, not payroll, but
I kind of lump it into payroll.
I'm a toughie.
Speaker 1 (07:38):
Is now 3%.
Like you said, that's average.
Is that a good number?
Do you think it should behigher?
And obviously it probablyvaries on the club.
Some clubs take rackets a lotmore serious than maybe other
clubs, so is 3% good?
I?
Speaker 2 (07:54):
think 3% is low.
But tennis is always in rackets.
Pickleball now Padel is alwaysan amenity to a golf club,
country club, it's justsecondary and so you know
they're not going to give us aton of money.
But hey, it is what it is.
You work with what you have.
You're always fighting, youknow.
(08:16):
That's why I kind of likerunning tennis-only clubs or
rackets-only clubs.
I don't have to fight forhousing with food and beverage.
Speaker 1 (08:22):
You know, yeah, yeah, with food and beverage.
You know, yeah, yeah.
So what was the takeaway from,like, the audience, what were
they walking away from that?
You know how were they feelingand, yeah, go ahead.
And then the follow-up questionis gonna be how do they, how do
you start that conversation toget that number higher and move
(08:42):
things in a more positivedirection?
Speaker 2 (08:45):
Well, that came up because that was a follow-up
question by them.
Great, Well done, Denny.
So the people actually reallyenjoyed that.
The people loved it because wedealt with actual business
scenarios.
We weren't sayinghypothetically, we're saying
this is what your percentageshould be, this is what you know
, this is how many people wecould actually hire with that
figure.
This is that kind of thing.
The, the follow-up question wasand it was part of our
(09:09):
presentation was how do youjustify your budget, you know,
to the, to the governors or toyour management?
And I said look, we're, we're,we're inexpensive department to
the membership.
Like you don't have a tennisminimum, you have a food and
beverage minimum, but you don'thave to take tennis lessons, but
you have to eat at the club,right?
(09:31):
So we don't cost the membersthat much.
And so I use that as a realtalking point is that there's no
minimum for the tennis orrackets department.
There's no minimum for the golfdepartment, only for food and
beverage, because food andbeverage is so expensive.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (09:50):
So from that makeshift $300K, you said no
more than 55% being used onpersonnel.
If you work with clubs all thetime, okay, so you go into a
club.
That's their number.
Where is your head at?
How are you going to get themost bang for buck for that
(10:11):
$300K?
Lots of ways.
Speaker 2 (10:13):
First of all, you, you going to get the most bang
for buck for that 300K.
Lots of ways.
First of all, you got to growthe revenue right, because
you're going to make more money,the bigger the program, right.
So your budget, that's yourbudget, that's your cost
analysis right.
But if you can actually havemore people on the court, the
more people you have on thecourt, the more that revenue.
What your cost foundation is,your payroll will go up, because
there's we work on commissionsas as pros right, golf and
(10:35):
tennis and any pro so yeah, butthe club and you as a director
and you as an employee will makemore if you're busier and
you're, you're getting more of acommission.
So I always try to grow therevenue.
Where can we grow revenue like?
Just just for example, today,one of the clubs called me this
morning.
They said had we've got tons ofSophie Bella in clothing.
I'm like, okay, well, let's putit on sale.
(10:57):
Well, hold on, slow down.
Why put it on sale right now?
Was it March 1st, february 28th, whatever?
Let's tie something into that.
So my manager there said whatdo you mean?
I said, well, let's think aboutthis.
What do you mean?
I said, well, let's think aboutthis Last week ladies teams we
have six of them Practices werea little slow.
So this week if you come toyour ladies practice, 50% off.
(11:20):
Sophie Bella, now you seethat's including.
So I yeah, I try to cross sellall the time, right.
Speaker 1 (11:29):
People.
People get addicted todiscounts.
They don't get addicted to likefree, or when there's and and
I'm a, I'm a big fan of like,instead of discounting per se
but like, how can you, you know,add more to it?
Or like, hey, you, you can getit, but you still have to do x,
y and z.
There still has to be someother aspects to it.
So that's great.
Instead of just going, oh,discount, it's like.
(11:49):
Now, there's like something toit, there's some like enticement
, there's some, you know, now itputs people like over the edge,
like, oh, now, oh, of course,I'm definitely gonna go now.
Like they're gonna make that alittle bit more conscious effort
, because people love a goodsale too.
Speaker 2 (12:01):
They love a good sale , but I'm not gonna give the
sale away for nothing, right?
so you know it's the same withyou know bogo.
You know bogo, buy one, get onefree.
You've got to buy two.
Your average order goes up.
I love combining.
If I know my singleschampionship is slow, it doesn't
(12:23):
have a lot of signups, I'll say, hey, if you sign up for the
singles we'll string two racketsfor free.
It just gets more people on theclub property, right?
But I love, when I'm doingclothing sales, to take that, so
I do.
The first one I have is my bigspring camp.
I have, you know, 60 people,eight pros, eight courts going
and everybody in camp gets 15%off clothes that week, free
(12:46):
private lesson with any of theguest pros, right, 20% off
stringing because it's alltune-ups.
You know we're all seasonalclubs, so um and boy does that.
And a free lunch.
And but there's no such thingas a free lunch, right, because
you're paying for camp.
I've built the price of thelunch into the camp price,
partially, right yeah, no,that's, it's.
Speaker 1 (13:07):
Uh, there's a really great book that I have uh called
100, 100 million dollar offers.
Uh, that's great it.
I'm going to read that, whichis just all about just like
offerings.
I'll send you the link and linkin show notes.
But no, it's just.
And there's another one.
It's like there's other books,books like it.
But it's just like hey, how doyou bundle it together?
How do you make it so like, howdo you make the offer so good?
(13:30):
People feel dumb saying noRight.
Speaker 2 (13:32):
Exactly, and we're doing it just in simple ways too
.
You know, buy five lessons, geta six for free.
You know, a new pro comes in, Ireally want to get his or her
book filled.
So I'll say, hey, there's adiscount on this pro, right, and
that takes business sometimesaway from one of my established
pros.
But the established pros knowso many people, so you're going
(13:52):
to get another opening hour ofan established pro.
That someone, someone will fillthat hour, but you've moved
somebody that you know to a newpro that nobody knows.
Speaker 1 (14:04):
Yeah, no, and that's, and that's a great way to.
You know, quote unquote, like,share the wealth also, but like,
but I feel like then it's, it'sgetting.
You know, I'm I'm big ongetting different perspectives,
different takeaways, becauseeveryone teaches and does things
a little bit different andpeople connect with different
people.
So you might always go to thepro, but if there's the new
person who comes in, it's like,hey, but you might actually
click really well with them andthey might be able to fix this
(14:27):
one little tweak that maybe thepro didn't do yet or they just
have that different way ofdescribing something.
Like.
That's also a big thing is, youknow, the pro might say
something the same thing over,but it doesn't click.
But then someone else says it aslightly different way and
you're like, oh, now I get itand that's what it just takes
that.
Speaker 2 (14:42):
That's what the there was this one seminar there that
was talking about.
That is how you, if it's notworking, Try another way, Try
another word, Try another curve,Try another.
You know it's.
There's no right or wrong wayin coaching.
Speaker 1 (14:59):
No, there's, yeah, I like that.
That's all, man, that was sogood so.
So so to to go back.
So you said that you would tryto you know, raise, raise that
number.
But let's just say you had 300k.
How do you allocate, like you,as like the pro, because you
help you, you come in and helpgroups and clubs all all the
time.
So let's just say, 300 is yourlike, it's your limit yeah, so
(15:22):
then you've got it.
Speaker 2 (15:23):
So then you got to figure out how okay, so if
that's your limit and it's in165, is your band like your base
, right for payroll?
You got to find an inexpensivedirector, right, because I mean,
if it's, if it's a seasonalclub, maybe you could work with
165.
It's year-round?
No way, right.
But we're taking a hypotheticalsituation here.
10 million, right, but um, butyes, you have to.
(15:45):
So what I would, what I would do, first thing I would do is take
55, put that on payroll, thenbreak that payroll figure down.
Okay, let's look at yourrevenues.
How many pros do you need?
What's your average uh numberof students or members per class
?
So do you need two?
Two assistants, one assistant,one inexpensive part-time
assistant.
Trying to figure that breakdown, so you can fit into that 165,
(16:08):
which is the hypothetical numberwe were using right.
Then the other 45 is going tobe your cost of doing business,
which is you hypothetical numberwe were using right.
Then the other 45% is going tobe your cost of doing business,
which is, you know, all thetechnical aids, the balls, the
liability insurance for yourpros, education, continuing
education for your pros.
I mean, it goes on and on.
You know court, you know courtmaintenance is in there, right,
(16:29):
yeah, that's that's a big chunk.
If you're indoor lights andheat, I mean's that's a big
chunk.
Um, if you're indoor lights andheat, I mean that's a massive
chunk.
Right, you don't think aboutthat.
You know squash.
I've had that fight all thetime.
You have an indoor court tennisand you have a squash court
squashes year-round indoor andyet tennis mainly often shares
50 50, but outside in the summerwe are really squashing that
(16:51):
budget, squash, squashing thebudget.
So yeah, you have, you know,and, and, and and.
These indoor places are, are,are propping up all over the
place for Padel.
I mean those costs of, ofheating and lighting and ACing,
those it's expensive and thismight be a dumb question, but
for for Do you have to extrafactor to clean?
Speaker 1 (17:14):
those walls.
Is that a dumb thing?
No, To me it's like you'regoing to need those walls
cleaned.
They're going to get scumpeople touching them kids I mean
.
It's going to look gross.
I'm not being paid by Windex.
Speaker 2 (17:25):
But that's a big bill .
Yeah, no, I mean it takes time.
Those take time because you'vegot to get the big squeegee,
you've got the pole and you'vegot to go up and down In the
morning.
Sometimes here we're outdoorswith Padel in Florida I just
finished a three-court projecthere and the dew is so heavy at
certain times that you have tosqueegee off the dew if you want
(17:45):
to get on before 10 am, whichis another cost.
I mean someone's got to do itTime.
Time right, yeah, and that cameup in our conversation is like
say, I'm the director of a club,a department, club department,
and I spend my time on thedatabase.
How do I figure that into mycost of doing business?
If I'm setting up a Googledatabase or adding people to
(18:09):
North Star or something likethat, how is that time ever
compensated to me?
I've got to count that as acost, because if it's not me,
it's gonna be somebody else.
I'm gonna have to pay thatperson.
Speaker 1 (18:16):
so I gotta think about that yeah, what are what's
what are low average in I don'twant to say high, because it's
all relative like what are whatare salaries like for positions
like like what are solidsalaries that get quality people
?
Speaker 2 (18:33):
you know this is the big discussion in the industry,
isn't it?
Speaker 1 (18:37):
thank you for throwing me in the middle of it
no, well, I'm just sayingbecause it's all relative, also
because you know from for me,from the entertainment, you know
people ask me like, what's the?
I'm like there is no.
Everyone's different.
Everyone has brings their ownexperience.
You don't know where they'recoming from, trap, you know so.
Are they at the fly?
Do they have to drive?
Are they close by?
There's so many differentelements.
Speaker 2 (18:58):
Are they an employer?
Are they a contractor?
Speaker 1 (19:00):
Well, for entertainment not so much.
Speaker 2 (19:03):
Oh for entertainment.
You're always a contractor,right?
Well, yeah, unless you're on aship.
Speaker 1 (19:09):
No, you're still a contractor, really.
Speaker 2 (19:11):
Yeah, how can no?
No, you're still a contractor,really.
Yeah, how can you work forsomeone else when you're on ship
?
Speaker 1 (19:14):
uh, it's like I forget how.
Speaker 2 (19:16):
No, it's it's, it's, it's, it's a, it's a term.
Yeah, there's a term, um, yeah,because so?
So contracting, that's a greatpoint.
You know, contractors versusemployees contractors gonna be
cheaper to the club, right?
But you don't have the controlover the contractor contracting
and say, no, I can't, I can'tshow that time I'll go teach
somewhere else for 50 bucks more.
I mean compensation.
(19:36):
Look, it's different around thecountry.
Okay, so I was talking tosomeone and I won't say who, but
they're in North Carolina andthey're at a very nice club and
they're at 60 bucks an hour fora lesson.
I think that's low, right, Imean, don't you't you?
I mean, put that in perspectiveto what you I hate to say this,
(19:57):
but what you're paying yourbabysitter, right?
Um, you know, babysitting is anenormous task, responsibility.
But tennis teaching is aprofession, you know.
I guess babysitting is aprofession too.
That's probably rude of me tosay that, but I would.
I would.
I would think that you know ahighly qualified instructor?
Um, of course it's a leisureactivity.
(20:18):
Uh, should, should be highlycompensated?
Um, I mean, sometimes thedentist director and the golf
director are the highest paidemployees at the club, not the
general manager.
Um, oftentimes that happens andI we've talked about that, not
you and me, but I've talkedabout it at conferences and with
other GMs Um, you know,obviously, northeast and West
(20:38):
coast, florida, those are your,those are your cash.
You know cash markets there,that's where you're probably
going to make the most as adirector or in the profession
and the club profession.
Um, elsewhere is not quite as,probably as strong.
Texas is a very strong region.
So you know, those are thespots to look for if you want to
(20:59):
, you know.
But then again, cost of livingis higher, you know.
You could say to me like, say,a club up in Greenwich,
connecticut, a director ofrackets might make $350,000 a
year.
Okay, that's not unheard of.
But the cost of living up there, putting your kids possibly
into private education, um,taxes, the tax base, um,
(21:21):
commutation, as you said,commutation, are you driving,
are you taking the train?
It's, it adds up and so the$350,000 a year might, might not
be enough, yeah.
Speaker 1 (21:33):
And do you think sometimes to some clubs because
they price it at a point let'sjust for all purposes say $60 an
hour do sometimes people thinkthat's too cheap and they just
go?
You know what?
I don't think I really needthat less.
Do people start to questionsometimes, and do you see a
different level when people paymore and kind of get that and
(21:56):
they, they pay more, they expectmore, but they also take it
more, more seriously?
Speaker 2 (22:00):
yes, yeah, I mean there are, I mean golf pros, I
know that are charging 250 anhour, right and, and people
don't bat an eye because thatpro has really gained their
respect.
They, they value his positionor her position in the, in the
industry, in the PGA.
And I, you know, no, no one's.
(22:21):
Once in a while you'll getsomeone that says, hey, that
that price, that lesson's alittle steep or that clinic's a
little steep.
But in terms of private lessonsI rarely get a complaint about
price.
What'll happen is people justwon't take a second lesson.
If they think it's, they won'ttell you, they just don't want
to pay.
But I think also, when you'restarting a season or you have a
new employee in, to price thatprofessional at the right spot.
(22:44):
You know they're always thatprofessional is always going to
want more.
If they're getting a percentageof that lesson, they're going
to want you to put that lessonat a hundred bucks, 120 bucks if
they're getting 60% or whateverit is of that lesson.
So you've got to take thatperson and say, okay, I've had
this person here five years.
I've had this person here threeyears.
This person knows this manymembers, you're fresh to our
(23:06):
marketplace.
Maybe you have a better,stronger resume.
I've got to figure out where toput you in terms of the ladder
structure of pricing.
Speaker 1 (23:16):
Yeah, what are the averages or what are like the
normal commission structuresthat you see for?
Speaker 2 (23:22):
the it ranges.
I'd say it ranges from 50% atsome clubs.
Some clubs is lower, but I'dsay that yeah, yeah, but then
again the salary might be higher, See.
Speaker 1 (23:33):
I was just going to say there's probably other
factors.
Speaker 2 (23:36):
Yeah, their salary might be higher.
Higher a stipend might behigher if they're contracting
housing, housing, right housingyep.
so, um, you know so.
So, for example, for me, I'lljust be honest um, I, I have to
pay for everyone's housing, soall my deals, I'm the land, I'm
the lessor, so I, I go and rentthe housing.
The club doesn't, the clubdoesn't, the club doesn't want
(23:57):
that liability.
That's why they've outsourcedto us.
So I go rent all the housing inColorado, in Massachusetts, and
then I build that into thepackage for the pro right.
So I'll say, okay, I'msubsidizing, I personally I'm
subsidizing your housing.
And also remember housing is abenefit in kind, so it is
(24:18):
taxable.
People forget that.
So you have to really show.
Yes, especially if you're acontractor, you have to show
cost of doing business.
So that's a huge piece of thepuzzle with the housing and so I
build in the housing costs intothey pay.
They pay a bit becauseotherwise they'd have to pay tax
(24:40):
.
They got it for free, but youknow, and then also you have to
build that into your commissionrates because I'm taking a hit
on the housing.
I'm trying to get them not topay full market value because
they probably can't afford tolive in Greenwich, Connecticut,
or Falmouth, Mass or Vail,Colorado, you know, for a month
or two or three.
Speaker 1 (25:00):
Those are high rent districts.
Is it safe to say, too, that,like do maybe not enough people
and when I say people, I meanboth the the racket side and the
club side?
Is it safe to say that, likethey can negotiate, they can
like work a deal?
Do they sometimes forget thatand just and just go like, oh,
we only have X amount and it'sjust like no, like both parties.
(25:21):
Hey, why don't you dance alittle bit, like, why don't you
find a win-win for both parties?
Like, do you do you see thatmaybe that doesn't happen enough
either?
Speaker 2 (25:28):
People are kind of a little bit more You're talking,
the professional coming to work,or the director, or the club.
Speaker 1 (25:36):
Well, I'm thinking both sides, but also, like you
know, yeah, so I'm talking fromboth the club perspective and
the racket side and just kind oflike both Like do most,
sometimes like they just don'tnegotiate enough or just don't
think to negotiate.
Speaker 2 (25:56):
So a mentor of mine once said when you're
negotiating with commissionsit's like taxes, right.
Speaker 1 (26:01):
So maybe like, not so much like the commission, but
like the overall package.
Speaker 2 (26:05):
Well, just remember this the club always wins.
That's what he said.
The club always wins becausethey're on this fixed percentage
.
Right so the club will take.
And it used to be that the clubnever took from a department,
right?
But now the clubs andespecially as they're
outsourcing to me they're goingto take a percentage out of the
total revenue bill.
Right, so if I make a milliondollars on court, they're going
to take 5, 10, 15% of that.
(26:28):
But whatever you do, howevermuch money you make, they're
taking it to the house.
Right, that's a fixedpercentage.
The house always wins, housealways wins.
So you have to think of that asyou're negotiating the package
with your new employee orcontractor.
Right so, take that off thetable.
No matter how much bigger youmake that program, the house
always wins.
Ok, so clubhouse.
(26:50):
So when you're negotiating thewhole package, yeah, you have to
make that person aware thatyou're providing them housing.
If it's housing, you'reproviding them travel expenses.
If they're doing that, you'reproviding.
I mean, I'm not going to make acontractor go buy their own
tennis balls at a club, right?
(27:11):
So all those costs are part ofhaving that person.
So I'm like, if you're a truecontractor, you got to bring
your own tennis balls.
You got to bring your ownpickup tubes.
You got to bring up.
No, they have to rent those.
So I say it's a small rent,right?
So that's the cost of doingbusiness for you being here and
using this wonderful facilityand treating our members like
(27:33):
wonderful people.
And there is a cost of business.
They have to.
They just think, as you said,so wisely.
Then they're just thinking 50bucks an hour, I can do eight
hours.
It's 400.
A day times seven, that's 2800bucks.
No, it doesn't work like that.
There's a lot more to it thanthat.
Yeah, what?
When are you going to be behindthe desk for me?
You know what that came up inour, in our.
You know the, the new people toindustry.
(27:55):
They just want to be on thecourt making money, but you need
support staff too.
So are you going to havesupport staff or are you going
to rotate the instructors behindthe desk for a little bit and
bring those support staff costsdown?
Well, you know what my answeris Pros are going behind the
desk a little bit and rotate.
You know you can string aracket and cover the front desk
(28:17):
so you can still make extramoney while you're covering the
phone.
Yeah, it's a lot of that Samewith golf.
I mean, golf is much furtherahead than we are on the racket
side because golf, the PGA, thecoaching, the teaching, the
mentoring makes all of thosestudents and and professionals
(28:37):
new professionals work behindall the different spots in the
in the golf shop.
They understand, you know.
So rackets isn't quite thereyet we're getting there.
I think we're getting there ina positive note are you?
Speaker 1 (28:49):
are you behind that movement?
Speaker 2 (28:52):
for sure I, because it helps you as a person.
It's not just to help me.
It helps that professionalbetter understand the business's
not just to help me.
It helps that professionalbetter understand the business
that they're entering or thatthey have entered.
Speaker 1 (29:03):
Going back to the conversation on the panel of
what you were all talking about,it's the stuff that people want
to know about they don't knowabout.
And the same kind of goes likewhat separates sometimes, I
think from my perspective, agood GM from a great GM is the
ones who've, you know, startedat the extreme bottom, working
all the weird little jobs anddetails and kind of you know at
(29:25):
least had to do.
You know, maybe their mentor ortheir boss made them, you know,
start off in the food andbeverage, out by the pool, in
like the in the shack doingwhatever, and then just all
these little different, oddpositions that even if they
weren't at them long, they couldat least wrap their heads
around and understand and kindof put themselves in somebody
(29:45):
else's feet Like they can.
Just it's that perspective.
Speaker 2 (29:49):
Of course, and being a team player.
That person who's done all thathas proven themselves as a team
player.
And I you know I'm not tryingto float my own boat, but I
strung a lot of rackets atmidnight so the members had them
at 6am the next day when theycame for their 6am lesson.
You've got to do that kind ofwork and it makes you a better
(30:12):
person in the long run.
You may not think of it at thetime.
God, I'm not gettingcompensated enough for this.
You know petty job, but whenyou go to an interview and they
ask you, have you done that?
And they ask your reference,does that do that?
They're going to hire youbecause they know you understand
customer service.
They understand that you getthe business side of things and
(30:32):
that there's not alwayscompensation for the little
menial tasks that we all have todo and that there's not always
compensation for the littlemenial tasks that we all have to
do.
Speaker 1 (30:38):
Yeah, look, you know we're in 2025 now.
Any trends that you're seeinggood, bad.
Any trends looking forward?
Are there things clubs that gotto stop doing that they're
doing?
What's the view of the worldfrom Ed Shanifee's perspective
for 2025?
The view of the world from Ed.
Speaker 2 (30:57):
Shanifee's perspective for 2025?
.
You know the wait lists aredwindling, so clubs have to
really pick up their game.
I mean they have.
I mean clubs have.
I mean during COVID they did.
I think we all were a littletired after COVID as managers in
the industry and I think we'regoing to have to be freshened up
again because the wait listsare shortening and, you know,
(31:19):
member turnover is back tonormal.
That's one trend I've seen.
The second trend I'm reallyseeing is more directly
concerned with the differentdepartments golf and tennis.
I'm really pushing, and so area lot of people at the three
conferences I've been at thisyear.
I saw you at the CMAA is dynamicpricing.
(31:39):
You know how.
Hotels you go to a hotel room,right.
Flights, flights If it'scrowded, it's more expensive,
right?
Well, why don't we do that inthe club business?
I'm trying to get the softwareproviders to do it.
So if all the pros are bookedon the golf side and there's one
hour at 1030, that hour shouldbe more expensive.
(31:59):
If there's nobody booked at 2pm, you should be able to get a
nice, cheap, inexpensive golflesson, right?
If your clinic isn't full at 8am, well, maybe at midnight the
night before the price drops andthen everyone tries to get in.
It's like booking your flightson a Tuesday.
(32:22):
Right, it's the best day to doit, or is it Wednesday, I can't
remember.
I'm waiting to book my trip toVail because I'm watching the
prices, but dynamic pricing ishuge and I think we're missing a
trick.
In fitness and the spas,everyone wants to do everything
between 8 and 12.
Especially in florida, becauseit's cooler outside right?
Speaker 1 (32:40):
well, again, they start drinking at noon, so he's
talking noon, like 8 am aroundhere.
Speaker 2 (32:48):
I saw an article in the wall street journal vero
beach and sebastian highest percapita alcohol intake in the
country.
Trust me, I can believe it.
Speaker 1 (32:56):
It's unbelievable, but lowest lowest duis, which is
weird.
But no, I'm kidding.
Speaker 2 (33:03):
No, I don't know that stat, but I'd be surprised, but
anyhow.
So why don't we look?
If you want your lesson at thetime you want it, you have to
pay for it a little bit extrabecause we're creating that time
for you, right?
Yeah, right Now.
On the same side, I face it ina couple of clubs Like so, for
example, in Massachusetts, wecan't fulfill the demand for
(33:27):
lessons because we only have twocourts right out of the eight.
Yeah, so for certain times ofthe day, for the peak times,
right, so we're booked right forthe summer, the mornings are
done.
Right Now I can, and I haveraised prices a little bit
because I know that our morningsare going to be, no matter what
I mean.
I have, I have a new pro andshe's like what do you mean?
(33:49):
I'm booked, that's like you'redone from from 7 to 12.
You're already booked mondaythrough friday.
And she went and looked atdiscussions.
Holy moly, I was again.
We, we book out january 15th.
So you know, I could do itmyself and I'm I wanted to do it
this year and I, I balked.
But I think we could do itthrough software where it's not
one person or one entity makingit, it's.
(34:11):
It's like the hotels and theflights it just goes up and down
and moves around.
Speaker 1 (34:16):
I think to play devil's advocate like, I totally
get it and I agree To playdevil's advocate, though I think
if you're a member of a club.
Speaker 2 (34:26):
Yeah, I get it.
Speaker 1 (34:28):
That's a tough line to walk.
I think some clubs can probablyget away with it, others, I
think there would be an outrage.
Speaker 2 (34:35):
So probably why I didn't do it at the club in
Massachusetts is, as you said,it's a member's own club, right,
yep, but these, where this iscoming from especially is the
new pedel pop-ups and thepickleball pop-ups, where you
pay a membership of, say, ahundred bucks a month, right,
and then you pay court time,okay.
So there are so many models outthere and that's another trend.
(34:57):
I'm saying how many differentmodels are happening.
And it's happening with topgolf too.
You know, like the um, thesimulators and all that.
Yeah, it's really changing theclub world.
Because they're notmember-owned clubs.
We're going more and more into,you know, commercially,
commercial enterprise here, andlike the piddell pop-ups, the
pickleball pop-ups, you'repaying court time on top of a
small membership.
(35:17):
There, I think it would work.
You're not going to get theoutrage because you're paying a
much smaller dues annually andthen you are booking courts and
already paying for just courts,not even instruction, just
courts.
So I think dynamic, dynamicpricing there, uh, would you
know?
Speaker 1 (35:37):
or maybe even for, like the clubs, instead of maybe
a you know the that dynamicpricing, maybe it's in the
afternoon instead of 60 minutes,you get 80 minutes, get an
extra 20 minutes of yeah, I mean, I would, you know, lesson or
like something where it's like,you know, to kind of to go back
to it, it's that you, you add ona little bit more.
So maybe instead of likediscounting and you have that
(35:59):
like whatever, or maybe it's hey, more so, maybe, instead of
like discounting and you havethat like whatever, or maybe
it's hey, maybe in the morningit's only 45 minutes instead of
an hour, you know.
So, instead of changing theprice, you, you, you change the
time frame well, pros do thatthemselves, a lot of contractors
.
Speaker 2 (36:10):
If they set their own prices, which a lot of times
you know they have, they havethe right to do that.
But right, by the way, um, isthat they'll do.
They'll only take half hours.
Like I know, this is the caseat frenchman's Creek in the
fitness department.
There's a couple contractorsthere that say I won't book an
hour, I only book half hours.
So an hour, say, is $80, butthey do it for $50 for the half
(36:33):
hour.
So they're making an extra $20an hour that they wouldn't make
if they booked the hour.
So it's a similar kind of thing.
Yeah, I mean, I think it's atrend that's going to happen
more and more and I think it'scoming to the club maybe not the
elite member-owned clubs, but,uh, other other types of clubs.
Speaker 1 (36:49):
Yes, well, I think, even if it's it's worth, it's
worth trying something out likeit's worth, you know.
I think that you know it'sworth just what worst case a
couple members get pissed.
You throw them a bottle of wine.
Hey, sorry, we were just tryingsome new stuff.
Speaker 2 (37:03):
Yeah, yeah, our bad, our bad.
Sometimes, though, if you tickoff a member, you get a little
pink slip in the mail.
Speaker 1 (37:14):
At that token were they really a great member, if
they're that ticked off oversomething so minute.
Speaker 2 (37:20):
And that brings up another point, like two things
on that One is I had severalmembers complain about not being
able to get courts over thiswinter.
Right, oh God, you put threePadel courts in, you took a
stadium court out, we took onecourt out tennis and so I went
and did you know?
I come back with stats and say,look guys, yeah, you can't get
(37:41):
a court at 9 am, but out of the12 courts and all the hours
available on those courts, we'reonly using 38% of the court
available time.
66% of that time the courts areempty.
So just because you want toplay, you can play at 2, 3, 4, 5
, right.
So I always come back with areasonable stat, right, yeah.
(38:04):
And then the other stat is and,and people giggle with this.
But I look my, my and I broughtthis up at the presentation my
stat that I love to look at islifetime value of that
membership, right, does thatmember spend money at your club,
are they right?
So I had this.
You sound like as a rankhitting a forehand, it gets
(38:31):
higher as she hits a winner.
Um, you know, but yeah.
So now I forgot what I'm gonnasay.
Um, but yeah, so you have, um,you have the average value of a
membership, which I think isreally important, and most of
the time when someone complainsto me they don't spend a lot of.
The complainer is one of thepeople persons that doesn't
(38:53):
spend a lot of money at the club.
I call it having your caviar ona tuna budget.
You can't get what you want allthe time, but you can get what
you need some of the time.
It's a Beatles, no RollingStones, but yeah, I look at the
average lifetime value of amember a lot.
It's an important stat for me.
Speaker 1 (39:15):
Yeah, no, that's good .
Speaker 2 (39:18):
This is really good.
I think we covered a lot there.
I think 2025, as I said, thewait lists are going to shrink
more and I think you're going tosee some of the big clubs
holding back a little on capitalexpenses because costs are
getting so high.
The problem with that, ofcourse, is the longer you wait
(39:40):
to.
You know I was at, and whatbrought me this up to me,
brought me to think about this,was I was at saddlebrook resort
for the ptr, the professionaltennis registry, and saddlebrook
was built in the 70s and theyhaven't really updated it and
and there's a big plan torenovate it.
It's one of the biggest resortsyou know in in on the west
coast.
It was a granddaddy of them allback when it was built.
(40:01):
Now it looks really dated and Iknow they have massive plans to
update all the housing, all therooms, the main clubhouse, the
golf, the tennis areas and thegolf course.
But I think the longer theywait to do that, the higher that
cost is really.
I mean, these costs are goingup exponentially because of
(40:28):
inflation and because ofeverything, everything, yeah, so
, um, yeah, so I think the clubsyou'll see clubs really trying
to balance that, you know, uh,whether they wait or whether
they hit their members up forsome more money now and do it
now and try to save in the shortterm rather than the longterm.
Speaker 1 (40:38):
Yeah, Then they run, they run into.
You know what are they missingout on by not updating and
modernizing and getting readyfor the new generation of
members coming in.
And yeah, it's definitely goingto be a unique couple of years.
I think you know a lot of thethe clubs.
Clubs got a huge boost and Ithink the ones who needed the
(40:59):
boost and got it and did theright things with that boost are
going to continue to do fine.
I think there's a lot of clubsa lot quote, unquote a lot.
I think there's a handful ofclubs.
There are clubs that got thatboost just like, yes, we're back
and they didn't do anything tohelp themselves, help their
clubs, help their numbers, theirmembers, their financials, and
(41:21):
now things are starting to goback to normal and they're going
, oh, like they didn't fix, theydidn't update, they didn't do
anything, and now they're backto square one, like they didn't
take the blessing that they gotand run with it.
They took it and took it forgranted.
Speaker 2 (41:37):
Right and I think they should have.
You know it came up again at thePTR.
If you're not on the PEDEL path,you're probably a little late
to the game right now, becauseif you do it in two or three
years time it's going to costtwo or three times more and you
could have done it when you hadall that extra cash lying around
and the wait list whichguarantees you capital expense
(41:58):
income when you have thoseinitiation fees coming in.
So yeah, if you didn't takeadvantage of the cash at the
time, you're probably not doinggreat in the next two years.
If you did as you said, denny,you're going to be fine as a
club.
I do think we're going to seethe spend at clubs diminish
slightly by members over thenext couple of years.
(42:20):
I think people are going totighten up their wallets and
wallets and it's going to be aninteresting ride for the next
few years and I think we'regoing to be there to watch it
and we're in the middle of itand it's a wonderful business to
be in because, like any otherbusiness, it's intriguing and
you can learn from it every day.
Speaker 1 (42:37):
There's a lot more competition.
So I think it's so much theydon't want to spend money at the
club.
It's now people want anexperience and they're willing
to go wherever that is.
If it's at the club, great.
There's a lot of greatexperiences they can get at
meals for show, for anything notat the club.
So I think it's clubs have tothink outside the box.
It's doing different things,trying stuff, doing different
(42:58):
things, trying stuff, seeingwhat works, and yeah, it's all
the stuff that we've beentalking about.
So yeah, edward, thank you somuch for coming on the show
Always a pleasure, thank youAlways love having you on, I
love our repartee, I love ourbanter, our chat.
We always have a good time andthanks for sharing stuff that's
not always talked about.
In the club space, which is theracket side, and all the
(43:18):
numbers.
In the club space, which is theracket side, and all the
numbers.
Thank you for being so openwith all of that Always an honor
and a pleasure.
Speaker 2 (43:23):
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (43:24):
Thank you so much, ed , for coming on, sharing some
knowledge and light and reallyallowing us to go deep into the
world of rackets and budgeting.
If you'd like to learn moreabout management in motion, head
on over to privateclubradiocomslash, mim, m-i-m, and all the
details are there.
That's this episode.
Hey everybody, welcome to the Private Club
Radio Show, where we give youthe scoop on all things private
golf and country clubs, frommastering leadership and
management, food and beverageexcellence, member engagement
secrets, board governance andeverything in between, all while
keeping it fun and light.
Whether you're a club veteranjust getting your feet wet or
somewhere in the middle, you arein the right place.
(00:20):
I'm your host, denny Corby.
Welcome to the show.
What do payroll percentages,pickleball courts and windex
have in common?
Nah, it's not the start ofanother bad dad joke.
It's another day in the mind ofEd Shanifee, and in this
episode we sit down with one ofthe most honest, entertaining
and wickedly smart minds in thebusiness.
He's from New England, so hehad to say wickedly smart.
(00:42):
Ed is a consultant, a coach, aclub pro lifer and possibly the
only guy who can make racketdepartment budgeting actually
fun to listen to.
Ed's been in the trenches, fromstringing rackets at midnight
to negotiating club contracts,to moderating panels at national
tennis conferences.
He's the real deal and he's notafraid to say the quiet numbers
(01:04):
out loud.
He's been on the show beforeand we're excited to have him
back.
We get into why your racketdepartment might be accidentally
bleeding money, what a $3,000racket budget really gets you.
And, spoiler alert, it's not aRolex, which is really
unfortunate.
We also go over what clubs aredoing right and totally wrong
when it comes to hiring andbudgeting for your rackets.
(01:26):
We talk about how to stretchyour resources without snapping
your strings.
We go over dynamic pricing,club politics and really all of
this is just how to turn astruggling rackets department
around without slashing pricesor tossing out discounts like
it's candy, because that's justnot fun and not profitable.
And I am super stoked to diveinto this episode with Ed
(01:46):
because we just go over the realstuff.
It's really good and I can'twait.
Before we dive in, a quickthanks to some of our show
partners.
You hear about them in the adsKenneth's member vetting, golf
Life Navigators, members, firstClub, capital Group, concert
Golf Partners, as well as myself, the denny corby experience.
There's excitement, there'smystery.
(02:08):
Also there's magic, mindreading and comedy, a lot of
laughs, gasps and holy craps.
If you want to have one of themost fun member event nights for
your club, head on over todennycorbycom and then, really
quick, I gotta tell you aboutsomething really special and
that I'm very passionate aboutand super excited for it's
something that I'm puttingtogether on Monday, september
(02:31):
22nd.
It's called Management in Motionand honestly, it's not your
typical leadership event.
It's happening at MonticelloMotor Club and it's for private
club professionals who want tolearn, connect and maybe burn a
little rubber along the wayThink drag racing, high-speed
runs, drifting, karting and,yeah, some killer leadership
(02:53):
talks as well.
This is the only leadershipevent where you learn
high-octane lessons, thenliterally hit the gas.
It's part leadership summit,part track day and 100%
unforgettable, with educationand real lessons from other club
professionals, but not justthat club professionals who also
go on the track.
So we're going to talk abouthow club leadership relates to
(03:15):
what we're doing on the track.
And the track day.
It is going to be absolutelyinsane.
All your food is included, Ihave a poker night, there's
prizes, there's giveaways.
This is literally unlike anyother club management event
retreat, whatever you want tocall it.
You've done.
I'm super stoked.
If you want to learn a littlebit more, head on over to
(03:36):
privateclubradiocom slashmanagement in motion, or just
privateclubradiocom slash MIM,m-i-m for management in Motion.
There's a quick little video onthere, two minutes.
Check it out.
It'll give you all the details.
I promise this will be one ofthe most fun things you will do
all year, guaranteed.
And this event is exclusive andlimited to only 50 people, so
(04:00):
make sure you sign up.
Enough about that, though.
Well, I do want you to come, sodon't forget it.
Up enough about that though.
Well, I do want you to come, sodon't forget it.
But enough about that.
Let's get to the episode.
Private club radio listeners.
Let's welcome back to the showed shanify.
Speaker 2 (04:11):
What was that panel on we?
You know they asked us to likethey asked us about patricio
mistrano and myself were bothleading directors.
We were.
Now we've both left direct, youknow, left that and gone on to
consulting.
So they wanted to like talkabout being a director.
So we made it the challenge,the challenges facing a director
in today's modern businessworld.
(04:32):
We try to focus on business.
You know those conferencesreally have a lot of uh seminars
on how to, how to coach, whatwording to use, how to you know
new programming ideas and wetried to really focus on
business.
Like percentages of payrollright, like total gross revenues
of a club versus your budgetfor racket's department.
(04:52):
What should that be compared toyour gross club revenue, food
and beverage budget?
Those kinds of things.
Speaker 1 (04:59):
The stuff that people want to know and should know,
but no one talks about.
Speaker 2 (05:03):
Exactly, I mean, and I shared a couple of big numbers
and people are like, whoa,that's a great number.
Thanks, ed.
Speaker 1 (05:08):
What can you?
Can you share the numbers?
What are those numbers?
Speaker 2 (05:12):
My number is is in terms of payroll right.
So anytime I look at my grossrevenue for my, my department,
payroll cannot be over 55%.
And when I say payroll I alsomean like total cost of
employees.
Like, for example, um, ifyou're going to include housing,
(05:34):
if you have to house youremployees, that's part of for me
, that's part of payroll.
Speaker 1 (05:38):
Okay, so so can you, can you like break it down?
Can you give like, let's justsay it's a club doing 50 million
or so, you know, or like, canyou?
Give like a fake scenario oflike, of, like, the breakdown
from like the large number downto like the rackets.
And then what?
What you're?
Speaker 2 (05:52):
talking about yeah, so so basically, if exactly
right, so say you're at a, sayyour club's a million dollars,
just to make it easy, right,million dollars.
I was trying to sound bougiewith 50, but yeah, a million is
much better.
Bougie with 50, but yeah, amillion is much better.
Okay, I mean, I'm just just inpercentage wise of that total
club revenue, the the racketsdepartment budget.
It should be higher, butnational average is three
(06:13):
percent of that, so you would beat 300 000.
Speaker 1 (06:17):
Crazy small right well, no less than that right.
Speaker 2 (06:22):
Yeah, you're right, sorry.
Uh, 30 000, yeah, so let's doit.
Let's do a 10 million.
Let me just get my calculatorout here.
Speaker 1 (06:27):
It's early in the morning I'm horrible at math too
, and I was like wait a second,wait a second, let's do 10
million right.
Speaker 2 (06:35):
10 million, I think it's stiffed.
I'm gonna, I'm doing it on mycalculator.
10 million times, uh, threepercent, three hundred thousand
dollars, that's what I mean.
10 million dollars is your fullrevenue, club's revenue, food
and beverage, everything golf.
Your budget for your racketsdepartment is $300,000.
That's the national average.
Now, out of that, 55% is yourmax for payroll $165,000.
(07:00):
It's not a lot, is it?
So that's where we're reallysqueezed as a rackets department
.
Speaker 1 (07:08):
Because in that also you probably have to account for
you know you can't just hireone person at that number or two
people at half, that you haveto go less because of insurances
and just you know all the otherthings I mean.
Speaker 2 (07:22):
I look at you know travel expenses.
You know I pay my guys.
They're coming into the clubsfor the summer.
I pay their expenses to go toget there.
So yeah, there are costs there.
You can say that's a cost ofdoing business, not payroll, but
I kind of lump it into payroll.
I'm a toughie.
Speaker 1 (07:38):
Is now 3%.
Like you said, that's average.
Is that a good number?
Do you think it should behigher?
And obviously it probablyvaries on the club.
Some clubs take rackets a lotmore serious than maybe other
clubs, so is 3% good?
I?
Speaker 2 (07:54):
think 3% is low.
But tennis is always in rackets.
Pickleball now Padel is alwaysan amenity to a golf club,
country club, it's justsecondary and so you know
they're not going to give us aton of money.
But hey, it is what it is.
You work with what you have.
You're always fighting, youknow.
(08:16):
That's why I kind of likerunning tennis-only clubs or
rackets-only clubs.
I don't have to fight forhousing with food and beverage.
Speaker 1 (08:22):
You know, yeah, yeah, with food and beverage.
You know, yeah, yeah.
So what was the takeaway from,like, the audience, what were
they walking away from that?
You know how were they feelingand, yeah, go ahead.
And then the follow-up questionis gonna be how do they, how do
you start that conversation toget that number higher and move
(08:42):
things in a more positivedirection?
Speaker 2 (08:45):
Well, that came up because that was a follow-up
question by them.
Great, Well done, Denny.
So the people actually reallyenjoyed that.
The people loved it because wedealt with actual business
scenarios.
We weren't sayinghypothetically, we're saying
this is what your percentageshould be, this is what you know
, this is how many people wecould actually hire with that
figure.
This is that kind of thing.
The, the follow-up question wasand it was part of our
(09:09):
presentation was how do youjustify your budget, you know,
to the, to the governors or toyour management?
And I said look, we're, we're,we're inexpensive department to
the membership.
Like you don't have a tennisminimum, you have a food and
beverage minimum, but you don'thave to take tennis lessons, but
you have to eat at the club,right?
(09:31):
So we don't cost the membersthat much.
And so I use that as a realtalking point is that there's no
minimum for the tennis orrackets department.
There's no minimum for the golfdepartment, only for food and
beverage, because food andbeverage is so expensive.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (09:50):
So from that makeshift $300K, you said no
more than 55% being used onpersonnel.
If you work with clubs all thetime, okay, so you go into a
club.
That's their number.
Where is your head at?
How are you going to get themost bang for buck for that
(10:11):
$300K?
Lots of ways.
Speaker 2 (10:13):
First of all, you, you going to get the most bang
for buck for that 300K.
Lots of ways.
First of all, you got to growthe revenue right, because
you're going to make more money,the bigger the program, right.
So your budget, that's yourbudget, that's your cost
analysis right.
But if you can actually havemore people on the court, the
more people you have on thecourt, the more that revenue.
What your cost foundation is,your payroll will go up, because
there's we work on commissionsas as pros right, golf and
(10:35):
tennis and any pro so yeah, butthe club and you as a director
and you as an employee will makemore if you're busier and
you're, you're getting more of acommission.
So I always try to grow therevenue.
Where can we grow revenue like?
Just just for example, today,one of the clubs called me this
morning.
They said had we've got tons ofSophie Bella in clothing.
I'm like, okay, well, let's putit on sale.
(10:57):
Well, hold on, slow down.
Why put it on sale right now?
Was it March 1st, february 28th, whatever?
Let's tie something into that.
So my manager there said whatdo you mean?
I said, well, let's think aboutthis.
What do you mean?
I said, well, let's think aboutthis Last week ladies teams we
have six of them Practices werea little slow.
So this week if you come toyour ladies practice, 50% off.
(11:20):
Sophie Bella, now you seethat's including.
So I yeah, I try to cross sellall the time, right.
Speaker 1 (11:29):
People.
People get addicted todiscounts.
They don't get addicted to likefree, or when there's and and
I'm a, I'm a big fan of like,instead of discounting per se
but like, how can you, you know,add more to it?
Or like, hey, you, you can getit, but you still have to do x,
y and z.
There still has to be someother aspects to it.
So that's great.
Instead of just going, oh,discount, it's like.
(11:49):
Now, there's like something toit, there's some like enticement
, there's some, you know, now itputs people like over the edge,
like, oh, now, oh, of course,I'm definitely gonna go now.
Like they're gonna make that alittle bit more conscious effort
, because people love a goodsale too.
Speaker 2 (12:01):
They love a good sale , but I'm not gonna give the
sale away for nothing, right?
so you know it's the same withyou know bogo.
You know bogo, buy one, get onefree.
You've got to buy two.
Your average order goes up.
I love combining.
If I know my singleschampionship is slow, it doesn't
(12:23):
have a lot of signups, I'll say, hey, if you sign up for the
singles we'll string two racketsfor free.
It just gets more people on theclub property, right?
But I love, when I'm doingclothing sales, to take that, so
I do.
The first one I have is my bigspring camp.
I have, you know, 60 people,eight pros, eight courts going
and everybody in camp gets 15%off clothes that week, free
(12:46):
private lesson with any of theguest pros, right, 20% off
stringing because it's alltune-ups.
You know we're all seasonalclubs, so um and boy does that.
And a free lunch.
And but there's no such thingas a free lunch, right, because
you're paying for camp.
I've built the price of thelunch into the camp price,
partially, right yeah, no,that's, it's.
Speaker 1 (13:07):
Uh, there's a really great book that I have uh called
100, 100 million dollar offers.
Uh, that's great it.
I'm going to read that, whichis just all about just like
offerings.
I'll send you the link and linkin show notes.
But no, it's just.
And there's another one.
It's like there's other books,books like it.
But it's just like hey, how doyou bundle it together?
How do you make it so like, howdo you make the offer so good?
(13:30):
People feel dumb saying noRight.
Speaker 2 (13:32):
Exactly, and we're doing it just in simple ways too
.
You know, buy five lessons, geta six for free.
You know, a new pro comes in, Ireally want to get his or her
book filled.
So I'll say, hey, there's adiscount on this pro, right, and
that takes business sometimesaway from one of my established
pros.
But the established pros knowso many people, so you're going
(13:52):
to get another opening hour ofan established pro.
That someone, someone will fillthat hour, but you've moved
somebody that you know to a newpro that nobody knows.
Speaker 1 (14:04):
Yeah, no, and that's, and that's a great way to.
You know, quote unquote, like,share the wealth also, but like,
but I feel like then it's, it'sgetting.
You know, I'm I'm big ongetting different perspectives,
different takeaways, becauseeveryone teaches and does things
a little bit different andpeople connect with different
people.
So you might always go to thepro, but if there's the new
person who comes in, it's like,hey, but you might actually
click really well with them andthey might be able to fix this
(14:27):
one little tweak that maybe thepro didn't do yet or they just
have that different way ofdescribing something.
Like.
That's also a big thing is, youknow, the pro might say
something the same thing over,but it doesn't click.
But then someone else says it aslightly different way and
you're like, oh, now I get itand that's what it just takes
that.
Speaker 2 (14:42):
That's what the there was this one seminar there that
was talking about.
That is how you, if it's notworking, Try another way, Try
another word, Try another curve,Try another.
You know it's.
There's no right or wrong wayin coaching.
Speaker 1 (14:59):
No, there's, yeah, I like that.
That's all, man, that was sogood so.
So so to to go back.
So you said that you would tryto you know, raise, raise that
number.
But let's just say you had 300k.
How do you allocate, like you,as like the pro, because you
help you, you come in and helpgroups and clubs all all the
time.
So let's just say, 300 is yourlike, it's your limit yeah, so
(15:22):
then you've got it.
Speaker 2 (15:23):
So then you got to figure out how okay, so if
that's your limit and it's in165, is your band like your base
, right for payroll?
You got to find an inexpensivedirector, right, because I mean,
if it's, if it's a seasonalclub, maybe you could work with
165.
It's year-round?
No way, right.
But we're taking a hypotheticalsituation here.
10 million, right, but um, butyes, you have to.
(15:45):
So what I would, what I would do, first thing I would do is take
55, put that on payroll, thenbreak that payroll figure down.
Okay, let's look at yourrevenues.
How many pros do you need?
What's your average uh numberof students or members per class
?
So do you need two?
Two assistants, one assistant,one inexpensive part-time
assistant.
Trying to figure that breakdown, so you can fit into that 165,
(16:08):
which is the hypothetical numberwe were using right.
Then the other 45 is going tobe your cost of doing business,
which is you hypothetical numberwe were using right.
Then the other 45% is going tobe your cost of doing business,
which is, you know, all thetechnical aids, the balls, the
liability insurance for yourpros, education, continuing
education for your pros.
I mean, it goes on and on.
You know court, you know courtmaintenance is in there, right,
(16:29):
yeah, that's that's a big chunk.
If you're indoor lights andheat, I mean's that's a big
chunk.
Um, if you're indoor lights andheat, I mean that's a massive
chunk.
Right, you don't think aboutthat.
You know squash.
I've had that fight all thetime.
You have an indoor court tennisand you have a squash court
squashes year-round indoor andyet tennis mainly often shares
50 50, but outside in the summerwe are really squashing that
(16:51):
budget, squash, squashing thebudget.
So yeah, you have, you know,and, and, and and.
These indoor places are, are,are propping up all over the
place for Padel.
I mean those costs of, ofheating and lighting and ACing,
those it's expensive and thismight be a dumb question, but
for for Do you have to extrafactor to clean?
Speaker 1 (17:14):
those walls.
Is that a dumb thing?
No, To me it's like you'regoing to need those walls
cleaned.
They're going to get scumpeople touching them kids I mean
.
It's going to look gross.
I'm not being paid by Windex.
Speaker 2 (17:25):
But that's a big bill .
Yeah, no, I mean it takes time.
Those take time because you'vegot to get the big squeegee,
you've got the pole and you'vegot to go up and down In the
morning.
Sometimes here we're outdoorswith Padel in Florida I just
finished a three-court projecthere and the dew is so heavy at
certain times that you have tosqueegee off the dew if you want
(17:45):
to get on before 10 am, whichis another cost.
I mean someone's got to do itTime.
Time right, yeah, and that cameup in our conversation is like
say, I'm the director of a club,a department, club department,
and I spend my time on thedatabase.
How do I figure that into mycost of doing business?
If I'm setting up a Googledatabase or adding people to
(18:09):
North Star or something likethat, how is that time ever
compensated to me?
I've got to count that as acost, because if it's not me,
it's gonna be somebody else.
I'm gonna have to pay thatperson.
Speaker 1 (18:16):
so I gotta think about that yeah, what are what's
what are low average in I don'twant to say high, because it's
all relative like what are whatare salaries like for positions
like like what are solidsalaries that get quality people
?
Speaker 2 (18:33):
you know this is the big discussion in the industry,
isn't it?
Speaker 1 (18:37):
thank you for throwing me in the middle of it
no, well, I'm just sayingbecause it's all relative, also
because you know from for me,from the entertainment, you know
people ask me like, what's the?
I'm like there is no.
Everyone's different.
Everyone has brings their ownexperience.
You don't know where they'recoming from, trap, you know so.
Are they at the fly?
Do they have to drive?
Are they close by?
There's so many differentelements.
Speaker 2 (18:58):
Are they an employer?
Are they a contractor?
Speaker 1 (19:00):
Well, for entertainment not so much.
Speaker 2 (19:03):
Oh for entertainment.
You're always a contractor,right?
Well, yeah, unless you're on aship.
Speaker 1 (19:09):
No, you're still a contractor, really.
Speaker 2 (19:11):
Yeah, how can no?
No, you're still a contractor,really.
Yeah, how can you work forsomeone else when you're on ship
?
Speaker 1 (19:14):
uh, it's like I forget how.
Speaker 2 (19:16):
No, it's it's, it's, it's, it's a, it's a term.
Yeah, there's a term, um, yeah,because so?
So contracting, that's a greatpoint.
You know, contractors versusemployees contractors gonna be
cheaper to the club, right?
But you don't have the controlover the contractor contracting
and say, no, I can't, I can'tshow that time I'll go teach
somewhere else for 50 bucks more.
I mean compensation.
(19:36):
Look, it's different around thecountry.
Okay, so I was talking tosomeone and I won't say who, but
they're in North Carolina andthey're at a very nice club and
they're at 60 bucks an hour fora lesson.
I think that's low, right, Imean, don't you't you?
I mean, put that in perspectiveto what you I hate to say this,
(19:57):
but what you're paying yourbabysitter, right?
Um, you know, babysitting is anenormous task, responsibility.
But tennis teaching is aprofession, you know.
I guess babysitting is aprofession too.
That's probably rude of me tosay that, but I would.
I would.
I would think that you know ahighly qualified instructor?
Um, of course it's a leisureactivity.
(20:18):
Uh, should, should be highlycompensated?
Um, I mean, sometimes thedentist director and the golf
director are the highest paidemployees at the club, not the
general manager.
Um, oftentimes that happens andI we've talked about that, not
you and me, but I've talkedabout it at conferences and with
other GMs Um, you know,obviously, northeast and West
(20:38):
coast, florida, those are your,those are your cash.
You know cash markets there,that's where you're probably
going to make the most as adirector or in the profession
and the club profession.
Um, elsewhere is not quite as,probably as strong.
Texas is a very strong region.
So you know, those are thespots to look for if you want to
(20:59):
, you know.
But then again, cost of livingis higher, you know.
You could say to me like, say,a club up in Greenwich,
connecticut, a director ofrackets might make $350,000 a
year.
Okay, that's not unheard of.
But the cost of living up there, putting your kids possibly
into private education, um,taxes, the tax base, um,
(21:21):
commutation, as you said,commutation, are you driving,
are you taking the train?
It's, it adds up and so the$350,000 a year might, might not
be enough, yeah.
Speaker 1 (21:33):
And do you think sometimes to some clubs because
they price it at a point let'sjust for all purposes say $60 an
hour do sometimes people thinkthat's too cheap and they just
go?
You know what?
I don't think I really needthat less.
Do people start to questionsometimes, and do you see a
different level when people paymore and kind of get that and
(21:56):
they, they pay more, they expectmore, but they also take it
more, more seriously?
Speaker 2 (22:00):
yes, yeah, I mean there are, I mean golf pros, I
know that are charging 250 anhour, right and, and people
don't bat an eye because thatpro has really gained their
respect.
They, they value his positionor her position in the, in the
industry, in the PGA.
And I, you know, no, no one's.
(22:21):
Once in a while you'll getsomeone that says, hey, that
that price, that lesson's alittle steep or that clinic's a
little steep.
But in terms of private lessonsI rarely get a complaint about
price.
What'll happen is people justwon't take a second lesson.
If they think it's, they won'ttell you, they just don't want
to pay.
But I think also, when you'restarting a season or you have a
new employee in, to price thatprofessional at the right spot.
(22:44):
You know they're always thatprofessional is always going to
want more.
If they're getting a percentageof that lesson, they're going
to want you to put that lessonat a hundred bucks, 120 bucks if
they're getting 60% or whateverit is of that lesson.
So you've got to take thatperson and say, okay, I've had
this person here five years.
I've had this person here threeyears.
This person knows this manymembers, you're fresh to our
(23:06):
marketplace.
Maybe you have a better,stronger resume.
I've got to figure out where toput you in terms of the ladder
structure of pricing.
Speaker 1 (23:16):
Yeah, what are the averages or what are like the
normal commission structuresthat you see for?
Speaker 2 (23:22):
the it ranges.
I'd say it ranges from 50% atsome clubs.
Some clubs is lower, but I'dsay that yeah, yeah, but then
again the salary might be higher, See.
Speaker 1 (23:33):
I was just going to say there's probably other
factors.
Speaker 2 (23:36):
Yeah, their salary might be higher.
Higher a stipend might behigher if they're contracting
housing, housing, right housingyep.
so, um, you know so.
So, for example, for me, I'lljust be honest um, I, I have to
pay for everyone's housing, soall my deals, I'm the land, I'm
the lessor, so I, I go and rentthe housing.
The club doesn't, the clubdoesn't, the club doesn't want
(23:57):
that liability.
That's why they've outsourcedto us.
So I go rent all the housing inColorado, in Massachusetts, and
then I build that into thepackage for the pro right.
So I'll say, okay, I'msubsidizing, I personally I'm
subsidizing your housing.
And also remember housing is abenefit in kind, so it is
(24:18):
taxable.
People forget that.
So you have to really show.
Yes, especially if you're acontractor, you have to show
cost of doing business.
So that's a huge piece of thepuzzle with the housing and so I
build in the housing costs intothey pay.
They pay a bit becauseotherwise they'd have to pay tax
(24:40):
.
They got it for free, but youknow, and then also you have to
build that into your commissionrates because I'm taking a hit
on the housing.
I'm trying to get them not topay full market value because
they probably can't afford tolive in Greenwich, Connecticut,
or Falmouth, Mass or Vail,Colorado, you know, for a month
or two or three.
Speaker 1 (25:00):
Those are high rent districts.
Is it safe to say, too, that,like do maybe not enough people
and when I say people, I meanboth the the racket side and the
club side?
Is it safe to say that, likethey can negotiate, they can
like work a deal?
Do they sometimes forget thatand just and just go like, oh,
we only have X amount and it'sjust like no, like both parties.
(25:21):
Hey, why don't you dance alittle bit, like, why don't you
find a win-win for both parties?
Like, do you do you see thatmaybe that doesn't happen enough
either?
Speaker 2 (25:28):
People are kind of a little bit more You're talking,
the professional coming to work,or the director, or the club.
Speaker 1 (25:36):
Well, I'm thinking both sides, but also, like you
know, yeah, so I'm talking fromboth the club perspective and
the racket side and just kind oflike both Like do most,
sometimes like they just don'tnegotiate enough or just don't
think to negotiate.
Speaker 2 (25:56):
So a mentor of mine once said when you're
negotiating with commissionsit's like taxes, right.
Speaker 1 (26:01):
So maybe like, not so much like the commission, but
like the overall package.
Speaker 2 (26:05):
Well, just remember this the club always wins.
That's what he said.
The club always wins becausethey're on this fixed percentage
.
Right so the club will take.
And it used to be that the clubnever took from a department,
right?
But now the clubs andespecially as they're
outsourcing to me they're goingto take a percentage out of the
total revenue bill.
Right, so if I make a milliondollars on court, they're going
to take 5, 10, 15% of that.
(26:28):
But whatever you do, howevermuch money you make, they're
taking it to the house.
Right, that's a fixedpercentage.
The house always wins, housealways wins.
So you have to think of that asyou're negotiating the package
with your new employee orcontractor.
Right so, take that off thetable.
No matter how much bigger youmake that program, the house
always wins.
Ok, so clubhouse.
(26:50):
So when you're negotiating thewhole package, yeah, you have to
make that person aware thatyou're providing them housing.
If it's housing, you'reproviding them travel expenses.
If they're doing that, you'reproviding.
I mean, I'm not going to make acontractor go buy their own
tennis balls at a club, right?
(27:11):
So all those costs are part ofhaving that person.
So I'm like, if you're a truecontractor, you got to bring
your own tennis balls.
You got to bring your ownpickup tubes.
You got to bring up.
No, they have to rent those.
So I say it's a small rent,right?
So that's the cost of doingbusiness for you being here and
using this wonderful facilityand treating our members like
(27:33):
wonderful people.
And there is a cost of business.
They have to.
They just think, as you said,so wisely.
Then they're just thinking 50bucks an hour, I can do eight
hours.
It's 400.
A day times seven, that's 2800bucks.
No, it doesn't work like that.
There's a lot more to it thanthat.
Yeah, what?
When are you going to be behindthe desk for me?
You know what that came up inour, in our.
You know the, the new people toindustry.
(27:55):
They just want to be on thecourt making money, but you need
support staff too.
So are you going to havesupport staff or are you going
to rotate the instructors behindthe desk for a little bit and
bring those support staff costsdown?
Well, you know what my answeris Pros are going behind the
desk a little bit and rotate.
You know you can string aracket and cover the front desk
(28:17):
so you can still make extramoney while you're covering the
phone.
Yeah, it's a lot of that Samewith golf.
I mean, golf is much furtherahead than we are on the racket
side because golf, the PGA, thecoaching, the teaching, the
mentoring makes all of thosestudents and and professionals
(28:37):
new professionals work behindall the different spots in the
in the golf shop.
They understand, you know.
So rackets isn't quite thereyet we're getting there.
I think we're getting there ina positive note are you?
Speaker 1 (28:49):
are you behind that movement?
Speaker 2 (28:52):
for sure I, because it helps you as a person.
It's not just to help me.
It helps that professionalbetter understand the business's
not just to help me.
It helps that professionalbetter understand the business
that they're entering or thatthey have entered.
Speaker 1 (29:03):
Going back to the conversation on the panel of
what you were all talking about,it's the stuff that people want
to know about they don't knowabout.
And the same kind of goes likewhat separates sometimes, I
think from my perspective, agood GM from a great GM is the
ones who've, you know, startedat the extreme bottom, working
all the weird little jobs anddetails and kind of you know at
(29:25):
least had to do.
You know, maybe their mentor ortheir boss made them, you know,
start off in the food andbeverage, out by the pool, in
like the in the shack doingwhatever, and then just all
these little different, oddpositions that even if they
weren't at them long, they couldat least wrap their heads
around and understand and kindof put themselves in somebody
(29:45):
else's feet Like they can.
Just it's that perspective.
Speaker 2 (29:49):
Of course, and being a team player.
That person who's done all thathas proven themselves as a team
player.
And I you know I'm not tryingto float my own boat, but I
strung a lot of rackets atmidnight so the members had them
at 6am the next day when theycame for their 6am lesson.
You've got to do that kind ofwork and it makes you a better
(30:12):
person in the long run.
You may not think of it at thetime.
God, I'm not gettingcompensated enough for this.
You know petty job, but whenyou go to an interview and they
ask you, have you done that?
And they ask your reference,does that do that?
They're going to hire youbecause they know you understand
customer service.
They understand that you getthe business side of things and
(30:32):
that there's not alwayscompensation for the little
menial tasks that we all have todo and that there's not always
compensation for the littlemenial tasks that we all have to
do.
Speaker 1 (30:38):
Yeah, look, you know we're in 2025 now.
Any trends that you're seeinggood, bad.
Any trends looking forward?
Are there things clubs that gotto stop doing that they're
doing?
What's the view of the worldfrom Ed Shanifee's perspective
for 2025?
The view of the world from Ed.
Speaker 2 (30:57):
Shanifee's perspective for 2025?
.
You know the wait lists aredwindling, so clubs have to
really pick up their game.
I mean they have.
I mean clubs have.
I mean during COVID they did.
I think we all were a littletired after COVID as managers in
the industry and I think we'regoing to have to be freshened up
again because the wait listsare shortening and, you know,
(31:19):
member turnover is back tonormal.
That's one trend I've seen.
The second trend I'm reallyseeing is more directly
concerned with the differentdepartments golf and tennis.
I'm really pushing, and so area lot of people at the three
conferences I've been at thisyear.
I saw you at the CMAA is dynamicpricing.
(31:39):
You know how.
Hotels you go to a hotel room,right.
Flights, flights If it'scrowded, it's more expensive,
right?
Well, why don't we do that inthe club business?
I'm trying to get the softwareproviders to do it.
So if all the pros are bookedon the golf side and there's one
hour at 1030, that hour shouldbe more expensive.
(31:59):
If there's nobody booked at 2pm, you should be able to get a
nice, cheap, inexpensive golflesson, right?
If your clinic isn't full at 8am, well, maybe at midnight the
night before the price drops andthen everyone tries to get in.
It's like booking your flightson a Tuesday.
(32:22):
Right, it's the best day to doit, or is it Wednesday, I can't
remember.
I'm waiting to book my trip toVail because I'm watching the
prices, but dynamic pricing ishuge and I think we're missing a
trick.
In fitness and the spas,everyone wants to do everything
between 8 and 12.
Especially in florida, becauseit's cooler outside right?
Speaker 1 (32:40):
well, again, they start drinking at noon, so he's
talking noon, like 8 am aroundhere.
Speaker 2 (32:48):
I saw an article in the wall street journal vero
beach and sebastian highest percapita alcohol intake in the
country.
Trust me, I can believe it.
Speaker 1 (32:56):
It's unbelievable, but lowest lowest duis, which is
weird.
But no, I'm kidding.
Speaker 2 (33:03):
No, I don't know that stat, but I'd be surprised, but
anyhow.
So why don't we look?
If you want your lesson at thetime you want it, you have to
pay for it a little bit extrabecause we're creating that time
for you, right?
Yeah, right Now.
On the same side, I face it ina couple of clubs Like so, for
example, in Massachusetts, wecan't fulfill the demand for
(33:27):
lessons because we only have twocourts right out of the eight.
Yeah, so for certain times ofthe day, for the peak times,
right, so we're booked right forthe summer, the mornings are
done.
Right Now I can, and I haveraised prices a little bit
because I know that our morningsare going to be, no matter what
I mean.
I have, I have a new pro andshe's like what do you mean?
(33:49):
I'm booked, that's like you'redone from from 7 to 12.
You're already booked mondaythrough friday.
And she went and looked atdiscussions.
Holy moly, I was again.
We, we book out january 15th.
So you know, I could do itmyself and I'm I wanted to do it
this year and I, I balked.
But I think we could do itthrough software where it's not
one person or one entity makingit, it's.
(34:11):
It's like the hotels and theflights it just goes up and down
and moves around.
Speaker 1 (34:16):
I think to play devil's advocate like, I totally
get it and I agree To playdevil's advocate, though I think
if you're a member of a club.
Speaker 2 (34:26):
Yeah, I get it.
Speaker 1 (34:28):
That's a tough line to walk.
I think some clubs can probablyget away with it, others, I
think there would be an outrage.
Speaker 2 (34:35):
So probably why I didn't do it at the club in
Massachusetts is, as you said,it's a member's own club, right,
yep, but these, where this iscoming from especially is the
new pedel pop-ups and thepickleball pop-ups, where you
pay a membership of, say, ahundred bucks a month, right,
and then you pay court time,okay.
So there are so many models outthere and that's another trend.
(34:57):
I'm saying how many differentmodels are happening.
And it's happening with topgolf too.
You know, like the um, thesimulators and all that.
Yeah, it's really changing theclub world.
Because they're notmember-owned clubs.
We're going more and more into,you know, commercially,
commercial enterprise here, andlike the piddell pop-ups, the
pickleball pop-ups, you'repaying court time on top of a
small membership.
(35:17):
There, I think it would work.
You're not going to get theoutrage because you're paying a
much smaller dues annually andthen you are booking courts and
already paying for just courts,not even instruction, just
courts.
So I think dynamic, dynamicpricing there, uh, would you
know?
Speaker 1 (35:37):
or maybe even for, like the clubs, instead of maybe
a you know the that dynamicpricing, maybe it's in the
afternoon instead of 60 minutes,you get 80 minutes, get an
extra 20 minutes of yeah, I mean, I would, you know, lesson or
like something where it's like,you know, to kind of to go back
to it, it's that you, you add ona little bit more.
So maybe instead of likediscounting and you have that
(35:59):
like whatever, or maybe it's hey, more so, maybe, instead of
like discounting and you havethat like whatever, or maybe
it's hey, maybe in the morningit's only 45 minutes instead of
an hour, you know.
So, instead of changing theprice, you, you, you change the
time frame well, pros do thatthemselves, a lot of contractors
.
Speaker 2 (36:10):
If they set their own prices, which a lot of times
you know they have, they havethe right to do that.
But right, by the way, um, isthat they'll do.
They'll only take half hours.
Like I know, this is the caseat frenchman's Creek in the
fitness department.
There's a couple contractorsthere that say I won't book an
hour, I only book half hours.
So an hour, say, is $80, butthey do it for $50 for the half
(36:33):
hour.
So they're making an extra $20an hour that they wouldn't make
if they booked the hour.
So it's a similar kind of thing.
Yeah, I mean, I think it's atrend that's going to happen
more and more and I think it'scoming to the club maybe not the
elite member-owned clubs, but,uh, other other types of clubs.
Speaker 1 (36:49):
Yes, well, I think, even if it's it's worth, it's
worth trying something out likeit's worth, you know.
I think that you know it'sworth just what worst case a
couple members get pissed.
You throw them a bottle of wine.
Hey, sorry, we were just tryingsome new stuff.
Speaker 2 (37:03):
Yeah, yeah, our bad, our bad.
Sometimes, though, if you tickoff a member, you get a little
pink slip in the mail.
Speaker 1 (37:14):
At that token were they really a great member, if
they're that ticked off oversomething so minute.
Speaker 2 (37:20):
And that brings up another point, like two things
on that One is I had severalmembers complain about not being
able to get courts over thiswinter.
Right, oh God, you put threePadel courts in, you took a
stadium court out, we took onecourt out tennis and so I went
and did you know?
I come back with stats and say,look guys, yeah, you can't get
(37:41):
a court at 9 am, but out of the12 courts and all the hours
available on those courts, we'reonly using 38% of the court
available time.
66% of that time the courts areempty.
So just because you want toplay, you can play at 2, 3, 4, 5
, right.
So I always come back with areasonable stat, right, yeah.
(38:04):
And then the other stat is and,and people giggle with this.
But I look my, my and I broughtthis up at the presentation my
stat that I love to look at islifetime value of that
membership, right, does thatmember spend money at your club,
are they right?
So I had this.
You sound like as a rankhitting a forehand, it gets
(38:31):
higher as she hits a winner.
Um, you know, but yeah.
So now I forgot what I'm gonnasay.
Um, but yeah, so you have, um,you have the average value of a
membership, which I think isreally important, and most of
the time when someone complainsto me they don't spend a lot of.
The complainer is one of thepeople persons that doesn't
(38:53):
spend a lot of money at the club.
I call it having your caviar ona tuna budget.
You can't get what you want allthe time, but you can get what
you need some of the time.
It's a Beatles, no RollingStones, but yeah, I look at the
average lifetime value of amember a lot.
It's an important stat for me.
Speaker 1 (39:15):
Yeah, no, that's good .
Speaker 2 (39:18):
This is really good.
I think we covered a lot there.
I think 2025, as I said, thewait lists are going to shrink
more and I think you're going tosee some of the big clubs
holding back a little on capitalexpenses because costs are
getting so high.
The problem with that, ofcourse, is the longer you wait
(39:40):
to.
You know I was at, and whatbrought me this up to me,
brought me to think about this,was I was at saddlebrook resort
for the ptr, the professionaltennis registry, and saddlebrook
was built in the 70s and theyhaven't really updated it and
and there's a big plan torenovate it.
It's one of the biggest resortsyou know in in on the west
coast.
It was a granddaddy of them allback when it was built.
(40:01):
Now it looks really dated and Iknow they have massive plans to
update all the housing, all therooms, the main clubhouse, the
golf, the tennis areas and thegolf course.
But I think the longer theywait to do that, the higher that
cost is really.
I mean, these costs are goingup exponentially because of
(40:28):
inflation and because ofeverything, everything, yeah, so
, um, yeah, so I think the clubsyou'll see clubs really trying
to balance that, you know, uh,whether they wait or whether
they hit their members up forsome more money now and do it
now and try to save in the shortterm rather than the longterm.
Speaker 1 (40:38):
Yeah, Then they run, they run into.
You know what are they missingout on by not updating and
modernizing and getting readyfor the new generation of
members coming in.
And yeah, it's definitely goingto be a unique couple of years.
I think you know a lot of thethe clubs.
Clubs got a huge boost and Ithink the ones who needed the
(40:59):
boost and got it and did theright things with that boost are
going to continue to do fine.
I think there's a lot of clubsa lot quote, unquote a lot.
I think there's a handful ofclubs.
There are clubs that got thatboost just like, yes, we're back
and they didn't do anything tohelp themselves, help their
clubs, help their numbers, theirmembers, their financials, and
(41:21):
now things are starting to goback to normal and they're going
, oh, like they didn't fix, theydidn't update, they didn't do
anything, and now they're backto square one, like they didn't
take the blessing that they gotand run with it.
They took it and took it forgranted.
Speaker 2 (41:37):
Right and I think they should have.
You know it came up again at thePTR.
If you're not on the PEDEL path,you're probably a little late
to the game right now, becauseif you do it in two or three
years time it's going to costtwo or three times more and you
could have done it when you hadall that extra cash lying around
and the wait list whichguarantees you capital expense
(41:58):
income when you have thoseinitiation fees coming in.
So yeah, if you didn't takeadvantage of the cash at the
time, you're probably not doinggreat in the next two years.
If you did as you said, denny,you're going to be fine as a
club.
I do think we're going to seethe spend at clubs diminish
slightly by members over thenext couple of years.
(42:20):
I think people are going totighten up their wallets and
wallets and it's going to be aninteresting ride for the next
few years and I think we'regoing to be there to watch it
and we're in the middle of itand it's a wonderful business to
be in because, like any otherbusiness, it's intriguing and
you can learn from it every day.
Speaker 1 (42:37):
There's a lot more competition.
So I think it's so much theydon't want to spend money at the
club.
It's now people want anexperience and they're willing
to go wherever that is.
If it's at the club, great.
There's a lot of greatexperiences they can get at
meals for show, for anything notat the club.
So I think it's clubs have tothink outside the box.
It's doing different things,trying stuff, doing different
(42:58):
things, trying stuff, seeingwhat works, and yeah, it's all
the stuff that we've beentalking about.
So yeah, edward, thank you somuch for coming on the show
Always a pleasure, thank youAlways love having you on, I
love our repartee, I love ourbanter, our chat.
We always have a good time andthanks for sharing stuff that's
not always talked about.
In the club space, which is theracket side, and all the
(43:18):
numbers.
In the club space, which is theracket side, and all the
numbers.
Thank you for being so openwith all of that Always an honor
and a pleasure.
Speaker 2 (43:23):
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (43:24):
Thank you so much, ed , for coming on, sharing some
knowledge and light and reallyallowing us to go deep into the
world of rackets and budgeting.
If you'd like to learn moreabout management in motion, head
on over to privateclubradiocomslash, mim, m-i-m, and all the
details are there.
That's this episode.
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