October 27, 2025 • 50 mins
So you want those letters after your name—CCM, CCE,
maybe even MCM—but you’re not sure where to start, how long it takes,
or if it’s even worth it?
This episode answers all your certification questions.
This week on The Private Club Radio Show, we sit down with
Brian Watkins, Director of Certification & Education at the
Club Management Association of America (CMAA).
If you’ve ever registered for a BMI, counted your CECs, or prepped for the CCM exam, you’ve already felt Brian’s impact.
In this episode, Brian gives us a behind-the-scenes look at:
*What it really takes to earn your Certified Club Manager (CCM)
*How to track and use your Continuing Education Credits (CECs)
*The step-by-step journey to Honor Society, Certified Chief Executive (CCE), and the elite Master Club Manager (MCM) designation
*What role BMI programs play in the process—and how to get the most out of them
*Why CMAA’s certification path is evolving to support the next generation of club professionals
*Common pitfalls, myths, and game-changing tips for every manager on the path to professional growth
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_00 (00:45):
And Brian's journey is nothing but typical.
In this episode, we learn alittle bit more about Brian and
his background, what got him tohear with us at the CMFO, but we
dive into what's going on.
We dive into not just what areand what is CCMs and CECs and
all of those, but also what itreally takes to earn your CCM
(01:08):
and what that really means.
Now you didn't start off inclubs or hospitality.
You were you were a teacher,right?
SPEAKER_01 (01:16):
I was a teacher.
That's correct.
So I taught for five years.
I taught high school ninthgraders, uh club, uh, excuse me,
I've said club management.
Um I taught uh government toninth graders and then early
world history to 11th graders.
And so I got my master's degreein um 97 and the first, excuse
(01:42):
me, 98.
And the first summer break, thefirst day of summer break,
following my master's degree, Ilooked in the Washington Post.
And back then, excuse me, all ofthe newspapers had a thick
employment section on Sunday.
Washington Post mega job sectionwas, you know, about two inches
(02:04):
thick.
And I I said to myself, well,what what is in here or what's
gonna be in here that saysMasters of Education?
Opened it up, highlighted everyjob that said masters of
education, and what I found wasmost of those jobs were in
associations.
At that time, I had no clue whatan association was, other than
(02:27):
the fact that I was, you know,national, a part of the National
Education Association, or theone that was in my state at the
time.
So I applied to 12, gotinterviews at six, and I got
offered a job at the I BankAssociation of America, which
their members were I Banktechnicians where they would
(02:51):
take corneals and cadavers, uh,corneas and eye tissue off of
cadavers.
So my job.
SPEAKER_00 (02:59):
Oh I remember you telling me that, and it still
just gave me like the samechill.
Something about eyeballs.
Oh man.
SPEAKER_01 (03:06):
Listen, and they and they and they needed
professional development course,and they had a certification
program.
And I got in there, and withinlike, I think Denny, within the
first three months, I realized Imight be in over my head here.
Because I I she hired me and Ihad no experience.
(03:29):
None.
And so I was just, you know,keeping it afloat.
And I I said, okay, well, I Iremember telling the executive
director, I'm I'm I'm way inover my head here.
I'm gonna resign.
And she said, okay.
She said, well, why don't you goahead and look for another job
(03:50):
and you can stay here?
And I was like, okay, great.
SPEAKER_00 (03:55):
So she's like, are you sure?
Really?
Like that's such a cool moment.
And I feel like that sort of islike a segue into hospitality,
also, in like a very strangeway.
Like I feel like that's a veryhospitable thing to do.
Like not many people, companies,or organizations would do that.
SPEAKER_01 (04:12):
Well, I definitely felt that, and that was one of
the things about associations,very laid back, um, very uh
understanding.
And so, you know, I took thatopportunity to look for some
other positions, and I found amore entry-level position at the
American Speech Language andHearing Association, which is a
(04:33):
large association here inMaryland.
Um, membership of, at that timeit was 110,000, and now I think
it's probably closer to onethirty.
And I was at accreditationcoordinator, and I was on the
ground doing site visits withSLPs and audiologists and going
(04:53):
to colleges, and it was a greatexperience.
I learned a lot aboutassociations there.
SPEAKER_00 (04:58):
It's so weird.
You went from from uh from thevision in the eyes to site
visits.
SPEAKER_01 (05:04):
Sorry, I've I've told this story many times, and
you're the only one who's putthat together.
SPEAKER_00 (05:17):
That's that's today's episode.
That's today's episode.
SPEAKER_01 (05:21):
Have a good day.
God bless.
Good night.
SPEAKER_00 (05:23):
Mic drop, I'm out.
Oh well, no.
Uh that is that is so look likethe when you you told me that
too, and then I remember thefirst thing it clicked was it
was interesting.
You just you you stuck to likethe body almost.
Like you went from the eyes tothe ears, no, you know, you got
you got all the you know all thesenses working.
SPEAKER_01 (05:42):
Very good connection.
You know, I never thought aboutthat until you just said
something.
That was a very connection.
Yeah.
Interesting.
SPEAKER_00 (05:51):
Interesting.
So, you know, because noteverybody falls in love with
certifications and associationsand continuing ed.
You know, what grabbed you aboutit?
And then how did you get into,you know, how'd you find your
way into CMAA?
SPEAKER_01 (06:08):
Well, it's a different way of educating.
It's a different way ofeducating, it's a different
demographic, right?
So you go from educatingyoungsters to now um educating
uh young adults and adults, andreally people who have a passion
for what they do, helping themdown the path with that passion.
(06:31):
And that's that's what I foundinteresting.
Um being a part of association,you see the members and how
passionate they are about uhtheir careers, and just wanting
to help them grow in that careerand grow professionally in that
career, and that requireseducation.
And so being able to createeducation programs or being able
(06:54):
to help them down the path ofcertification, I just found that
interesting.
It's something that um, youknow, it's a thing that we need
in our society, right?
We we don't always think aboutthe borrower is licensed or
certified.
Our mechanics need to belicensed and certified.
Those people who come in ourhomes doing HVAC, those people
(07:16):
who are licensed and certified.
And so really is a service, Iguess, to our society to help
make sure those individuals havethe education that they need,
the knowledge and skills to dotheir jobs in a way that
provides a service to everyoneelse.
SPEAKER_00 (07:33):
Yeah.
And I'm sure it's it's when youwork with, you know, and not
just the club managers, but whenyou were working with the
different, you know,organizations and different
people, it's I I would assumeit's it's a different sort of
education and a different sortof buy-in that you get as
compared to when meaning, youknow, when people want to learn
and they want to be there for,you know, and they want to
(07:55):
continue versus just you knowhaving to be there.
Or, you know, I'm not sayingthat there's a difference
between like kids and adults andyou know, young adults in
school, but I think there'sprobably a difference when like
people are like the the buy-inis there and they're excited and
they're in the industry andthey're excited for what's
coming and they want to learn asmuch as they can and just be
like a sponge.
SPEAKER_01 (08:14):
That's you know what I compare it to, I go back to
the kids, right?
So those are who are in ninthgrade, their first year of high
school, they don't necessarilyhave the buy-in, right?
I mean, they know they have totake classes, they don't even
know or think about whatrequired what classes are
required for graduation.
They just know I'm here, mom anddad told me I have to be here.
(08:38):
There are some who are directlyum excited about their education
and learning, but then there areso many who at high school level
just like, I'm here, I want tograduate.
You get those 11th graders whoare now I've bought in because I
gotta think about college,right?
(08:59):
So now I'm really focused ongetting the education, getting
the lecture and the informationfrom the teacher.
And so that's the buy-in.
I equate that to where we arenow with certification, is that
our members have gotten to thispoint where, okay, this is going
to be my career.
So now let me take it to a nextto the next step.
(09:22):
And whether that means gettingall the professional development
so that I can serve my membersbetter, or making sure I get a
certification so I can haveadvancement, mobility, um, I can
tell someone that I have theknowledge and skills, whether
it's the um recruiters orsomeone who has a job to offer
me.
(09:42):
That's the buy-in.
And so once they have that, it'svery easy to have their
attention and provide theeducation for them to for them
to achieve.
It's really, it's really um froma from a from a education
perspective and and being infront of our members, it's very
(10:03):
interesting to see them andlisten to our speakers, get the
content, and then on the backend, like Friday or Monday
following, hear them, oh mygosh, that was a great program.
Everyone was just was sowonderful.
The message they delivered, theinformation I got, the
networking, it really makes itworthwhile that that, okay, I'm
(10:25):
doing something right here,trying to educate them in this
uh in this uh industry.
SPEAKER_00 (10:30):
Yeah, and you've you've probably found that
people take in and learndifferently too.
So you know, you've probablybeen to some VMIs and some
trainings, and you're like, man,you know, there was like a table
or a certain person, you'relike, they did not enjoy it at
all.
And they're like, they're likethe first ones in your inbox,
like that was the best eventever.
And you're like, can you havetold your face or something?
SPEAKER_01 (10:50):
Like, right, right, right, right, right.
As my mom, my mom used to say,mind your face, right?
Mind your face.
Your face should not, your faceshouldn't always say what you
think or how you feel.
Um, but when you do feel thatexcitement, feel free to let me
know.
Hey, I like it.
You know, you don't have to waituntil I see you at conference or
(11:14):
I see you a year later, or I seeyou at another program.
Man, that that program you hadin Atlanta, that was great.
Really?
Because I thought you hated it.
You know what I was like?
I didn't get that from you,buddy.
Yeah.
Yeah.
You're right.
SPEAKER_00 (11:29):
So uh remind the viewers, what exactly do you do
uh at and for the CMAA?
SPEAKER_01 (11:36):
Okay, so my primary role is director of
certification.
That's my title, certificationeducation.
Primarily, I'm responsible formaking sure our members get the
certification, go down thecertification path from
beginning to end.
And in that part of that isgoing to our BMI programs, our
BMI programs that we have, whichare required, four of them, go
(12:00):
into those programs along withmy other colleagues in the
education department, makingsure that um they meet the
eligibility requirements andthen get to the point of exam
and helping them, notnecessarily helping through the
exam, but helping them preparefor the exam.
So from beginning to end, uh, meand my colleague, Sonia
(12:20):
Prepinabar, we're responsiblefor helping them with the
certification process.
That's that's our role.
Aside from that, BMI is ourbusiness management institute.
I'm responsible for theplanning, coordination of those
programs as well.
So it's kind of a two-foldthere.
SPEAKER_00 (12:38):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Is there is there is thereanything that you do that people
may not realize that youactually do, or maybe something
that falls under yourjurisdiction?
SPEAKER_01 (12:49):
Oh wow.
SPEAKER_00 (12:50):
Um, more more so just like thinking like are
other things that you do for theassociation, maybe for the BMIs,
for the you know, for everythingthat maybe that you you have
your hands in or that you'reinvolved in that maybe you know
a normal club manager or anormal attendee might go, Oh, I
didn't realize that's under hisveil.
SPEAKER_01 (13:09):
Yeah, well, the BMIs.
I don't think that our membersrealize that I'm responsible for
the coordination of those a lotbecause my title is director of
certification, but I don't thinkCCM.
But yeah, um, I'm responsiblefor the coordination of the
BMIs.
We have five programs, and at Ithink four of the programs, we
(13:33):
have an on-site coordinator.
That on-site coordinator is sheor he are the ones that pretty
much work with the speakers tocreate the schedule ahead of
time.
But I have to work with them tomake sure they have the dates,
they have whatever presentationsthat they need, they have our
(13:53):
online platform set up and haveaccess to that to be able to
upload documents to that.
I do the correspondence betweenus and our members as they
prepare to go to the programs,the correspondence for like
confirmation when they registerfor the programs, the
confirmation letter theyreceive.
Um, if there are any incidentsor issues that happen on site,
(14:19):
I'm responsible for, um, as wellas Jason Coney's fellow who is
our chief learning officer.
Um, there are a lot of thingswith the BMIs that I don't think
our members realize that I haveuh hands on.
But um that's a good thingbecause they they're they're
just on for the ride, Danny.
They're just on for the ride.
SPEAKER_00 (14:39):
And it's a good thing.
And sometimes if if they knowyou're involved with something,
they're gonna want to talk toyou about stuff.
And it's like, no, there's otherpeople for that.
Like you need to tell me.
SPEAKER_01 (14:49):
Yeah, yeah.
You can talk to someone else,talk to you know, the
coordinator in Atlanta, or talkto someone in LA, but it doesn't
have to always come to me.
But it it does, and and it andit goes to my teammates as well.
There's six of us in thedepartment, and and they get
emails and phone calls orwhatever about things that
happen at programs, and thatgets passed on to me, and so I'm
(15:10):
able to usually figure out asolution for some of those
issues.
Yeah.
Yeah.
That's awesome.
SPEAKER_00 (15:17):
Now let's get into some certification talk.
You know, what you know, we'relet's talk about the CCM.
What's uh what does all of thatentail?
What goes into getting,becoming, and going through the
CCM process?
SPEAKER_01 (15:33):
Well, I won't get into the weeds of it, but I will
say we have five eligibilityrequirements.
One of those is, as I mentioned,our four BMIs, uh attending
World Conference, there's aprofessional membership
requirement, and then there'ssome other programs that they
have to attend.
And once they've met all those,there's a require there's a
(15:55):
credit requirement, once they'vemet all those requirements, then
they're eligible to sit for theexam.
And so what we tell most of ourmembers is it it should take you
about four to five years tocomplete the process.
There are some of our memberswho want to be on a fast track
and they think, oh, I'm gonnaget through all the programs in
(16:15):
two years or three years, andthen I'm gonna sit for the exam
really quickly.
It doesn't typically work likethat.
The way our um, I would say thethe creator of the BMI program
and the certification program,um, they want to make sure that
everyone goes through all ofthose programs so that they can
get that that knowledge andskills.
(16:36):
It's not just about you knowrushing to get the designation.
And so it's about the immersionof it all.
It's the process.
It's the process, right?
Um but hopefully they go throughthe process.
They go through our BMIs.
The required BMIs would be clubmanagement, which is a let's say
(16:56):
club, private club industryone-on-one program in Atlanta.
There's leadership principles,which um is in uh in LA at the
Jonathan Club, hosted by theJonathan Club.
Uh GMCO, which is on the campusof Michigan State University.
And then those three arerequired, and then they have an
elector.
(17:16):
So it's either food and beverageat University of Houston, sports
and recreation in Scottsdale, orBMI Golf in Jupiter, Florida at
Adam's Cove Club.
And um once they complete thoseand some other requirements,
then they're eligible to sit forthe exam.
It's um it's an experience andeducation-driven uh eligibility
(17:43):
process.
Yeah.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (17:45):
Yeah.
And in the test, is it uh, Ibelieve you have to get at least
a 70 in all of the aspects, inall of the competencies, in all
of the different sections.
So in even if it's, I believe,uh, and correct me if I'm wrong,
you know, I probably know enoughto be dangerous, but you know,
um, if there's, you know,there's golf, there's pool,
(18:06):
there's all those elements.
And even if you don't have thoseat your particular facility,
whatever, you still have to beencompassing and know all of the
different practices, so tospeak.
SPEAKER_01 (18:16):
Yeah, that's correct.
There, there are currently ourmembers are being tested on 10
competencies.
They are educated on 11, whichinformation technology is now
11, but we're not testing onthat now.
We're in the process of uhrewriting our contemporary
called management book, butthey're tested on 10.
And you have to pass 70%overall, and at least, and this
(18:40):
is where you are going, at least50% in each competency.
So if you get a 48 or 49 in,let's say accounting, and you
got a 71 overall, you have tosit for the entire exam all over
again.
And now we yeah, and and andDenny, I'm gonna tell you,
that's a tough conversation tohave to tell someone, hey, you
(19:03):
got uh 72, but you got a 48 infacilities.
That's a tough conversation.
But it happens, it happens.
SPEAKER_00 (19:13):
Um I've I've I've chatted to a few of those
people.
SPEAKER_01 (19:20):
Um but but the exam is fair.
And and if we get that close, ifyou have a 49 uh in one of the
competencies, or let's say youhave a 68, we will look at the
exam.
We'll we'll we do itautomatically.
Anyone who's that close willtake a look at the exam to see
if maybe one of the or a few ofthe questions scored or or
(19:43):
functioned improperly, and andwe will let you know.
And we will give you thosecredits if that or those points,
excuse me, if that was the case.
We've got to the point now wherewe're pretty good with where the
exam is, and so we haven't hadanything technology-wise that
could be an issue.
That's good.
So if it scores that tightly,it's it's true.
(20:05):
It's gonna be termed, yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (20:07):
It's your own damn fault.
No, right.
SPEAKER_01 (20:09):
That's what I say.
You know, uh no, I don't saythat.
I don't.
There's no way I can say that.
I don't say that.
No, no.
SPEAKER_00 (20:15):
Uh and and and CCM would be considered like the
bachelor's degree, right?
That is correct.
SPEAKER_01 (20:20):
Yeah, that is correct.
So we have the CCE, I meanexcuse me, CCM, which is our
bachelor's degree, as you said.
We have another anotherdesignation right after that.
That's the Honor Society.
Honor Society means you haveearned 400 credits post-CCM.
So from the time you get yourCCM, let's just say your clock
(20:42):
or your um your credits will goto zero.
So once you get the 400 and youattend either tactical or
strategic leadership, you willbecome uh an honor society
member.
Then we have the the chief,excuse me, certified chief
executive.
Now that's the master's leveldesignation that has both a
(21:08):
credit requirement as well asyou have to attend both tactical
and strategic leadership.
And you must be in an executive,GM, COO level for at least five
years.
So it wants you to also havesome experience to go on to that
education as well.
Uh and then the last one is theMaster Club Manager, which is a
(21:31):
doctorate level type program.
You come up with a topic, you umwork with the panel and the head
of that committee, you kind offlesh out everything, and um
they will edit your paper as youare going along, and then
eventually, hopefully, that willbe defended at conference and it
(21:53):
will be approved, and you willbecome a master club management.
We only have I think thenumber's 25 master club managers
in total.
SPEAKER_00 (22:02):
The holy grail.
SPEAKER_01 (22:03):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (22:04):
Yeah, that's it.
That's it.
That's it.
What what kind of personactually chases that level?
SPEAKER_01 (22:10):
I I think it's someone who is a umone who has
an extreme level of dedicationand commitment to the industry.
Someone who really is focused umon their professional
development, someone who's veryserious about their professional
(22:31):
development, someone who alsowants to enhance the industry
because all of those manuscriptsare always kept and we're and
they're posted on our website.
So anyone could take a look atthem and see what what uh the
topic was, and hopefully they'vedone their due diligence and
(22:51):
their studying and theirresearch to provide a really
nice manuscript for everyone inthe industry to go back and look
at and read.
So it's really someone who is ata different level of where they
want to be educationally.
Yeah.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (23:11):
Yeah.
You have those people, then youhave the ones who are like, eh,
I'm too busy, I don't have timefor this.
You know, just the whole thing.
SPEAKER_01 (23:18):
Well, you know, but then and uh a lot of our members
say that, and and they are busy,they are busy, but when you get
to that point, I think in yourcareer, you're you're delegating
a lot of what you do, right?
And so not to diminish their jobtheir jobs or their daily tasks,
(23:40):
but you do have a little moretime personally and
professionally to dig intosomething like that.
And and and we even expressthat, you know, don't don't,
even though we only have 25,take a look at it, consider it.
Once you get that CCE, considerthe MCM because it really may be
something that it may not bewhat you think it is.
(24:02):
It may not be the level ofcommitment of your time that
that you think it is.
SPEAKER_00 (24:08):
Well, I'm sure people even for you for their
CCM and their CCEs, you know,I'm sure you still get some of
those people who say, Oh, I'mtoo busy, I don't have time for
that.
What do you what do you even sayto those people?
SPEAKER_01 (24:20):
I I tell them to, it's a listen, certification is
not for everyone.
I I was just having thisconversation with uh last week.
It's not for everyone.
It's not for everyone.
You know, it and I mentionedyour auto mechanic, right?
Your auto mechanic, not everyauto mechanic is certified, ASC
(24:40):
certified.
Um, but do we want to havesomeone certified who's working
on my car?
Uh yeah.
I mean, it it it it tends to bethat that person is more
knowledgeable about everythingin the automotive industry in
terms of repairs.
Do you have to be in order to bea mechanic?
(25:01):
No.
Do you have to be certified tobe great in hospitality?
No, you do not.
But when you think aboutadvancement, when you think
about wanting to get the besteducation in terms of the
industry, you're gonna get that.
But also um the mobility.
So many of our clubs, whenthey're looking to hire, whether
(25:25):
it's a clubhouse manager or AGM,definitely at the GM level.
They look in it for CCNpreferred.
And so it's not required, butit's preferred.
And it's telling them that youhave the knowledge and skills
available to help take theirclub to another level.
(25:46):
And so I would say, you know,it's it's a part of a process.
It's not something that you'regonna run through quickly, but
be a part of that process.
Take the time to invest inyourself.
If you're not, and if the clubis willing to invest in you, you
definitely, if they're gonnainvest the financial um backing,
(26:07):
you definitely should takeadvantage of that and and start
the process of going towardsyour CCM.
It's not, like I said, you know,it's not gonna be something
that's gonna happen tomorrow,but it's gradual.
It's gradual.
So there's gonna be time.
You can make time for it,hopefully.
SPEAKER_00 (26:23):
And for the most part, you're going to the
meetings anyway.
You're you're doing, you'reshowing up, you're doing most of
the work, right?
The hardest part is showing up,and you're showing up most of
the time to a CCM event or CCMAA events.
Like you're getting credit,you're doing just do the little
extra work.
Like just do the extra 10%.
Like that's really all it is.
Like showing up, just doingthat.
(26:43):
Are there any I don't know, likemyths or misunderstandings that
maybe people have about thecertain like any of the
certification processes?
SPEAKER_01 (26:52):
I I think uh some of the myths that we used to run
into was because there was atime maybe years ago, maybe I
don't know, maybe 13 years ago,where if you had if you had a
bachelor's degree, you didn'thave to take a certain number of
programs, or you could not takethe Atlanta program or not take
the LA program.
(27:13):
That doesn't exist anymore.
We're at the point where theboard wants everyone to take all
of the programs so they can beuh well-rounded, right?
Yeah.
Um, I I don't know that thereare any myths per se.
It's just things that arefocused on our eligibility
requirements.
There's some hearsay andspeculation, things, just you
(27:35):
know, word of mouth.
People playing phone and they'regetting the wrong information.
So what we really are trying todo, Denny, is push them towards
the website, but you know, noteveryone wants to read, not
everyone wants to take the timeto read.
Or we'll do the certificationpresentation.
I've done several at the chapterlevel, I've done several at the
(27:57):
BMIs.
We even have a YouTube videowhere I've done that
presentation, and we just askthem to, if they have any
questions, like you're saying,that there's some misinformation
out there, just reach out to usand we'll answer that, whether
it's a phone call or or anemail.
We can, you know, provide theinformation you need so that
(28:18):
there are no you know gaps in interms of uh information.
Um that's I I know our ourcommunication department does a
great job at putting out a lotof information.
And as you know, um some peoplehave the opportunity.
I will say I'll say it this way.
Some people have the opportunityto read it, some people don't
(28:41):
have the opportunity to read it,but they need to take that
opportunity and read it becausethere may be some stuff that
they're just missing, right?
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (28:50):
Just per your last email.
No, I'm kidding.
Uh it's it's gonna be reallycool seeing so many people go
through and start and completethe journey.
You know, what what do you thinkchanges in people from day one
to when they finally get thoseletters after their name?
SPEAKER_01 (29:12):
Um, I think it's in that process.
It's the it's their developmentin that process.
And it's not just the education,it's the relationships that they
build when they go to theprograms or when they go to
World Conference.
It's the relationships theybuild, it's their own
development, right?
They start to change as amanager.
(29:35):
They um get not just arteducation, but they learn from
other people.
And so by the time they get tothat point where they're ready
to walk across the stage,they're they're um they're far
more professional.
They're far more experienced inthe industry.
They've been exposed to a lot ofdifferent things, whether it's
(29:57):
from our education or fromconversation.
That they've had with theirpeers.
They've had the opportunity totalk to some of our seasoned
managers, right?
Some of our maybe their MCM orCCE and learn from them, take
get advice from them.
And so you can kind of see that,right?
You can see those who are middlemanagers, clubhouse manager, F
(30:22):
and B director, and how theyevolve into something bigger and
better.
And it's really, it's it's quiteimpressive.
And and and also when theybecome more involved in the
association, right?
They become a volunteer in theassociation.
They start getting involved onnational committees.
They become more involved at thechapter level, being on some of
(30:46):
those committees, or maybe evena chapter board.
So it's really impressive to seehow much they love CMAA, how
much they respect CMAA and allthat the association is able to
provide them.
I mean, I think that's one ofthe things that, as I, as an
association professional, havecome here from other
(31:08):
associations and seen how muchthe members love what the
association does for them.
And that's just willing to getback.
They're willing to get back, bea part of it.
They are super active and superenthused.
But to see that development fromthe beginning to where they walk
across the stage, all of that isin there, and it's it's quite
(31:29):
impressive.
And those are people that youtend to hold on to.
You know their faces, you knowtheir names, you see them at all
the events.
Those are the ones that arereally growing, but they're
growing inside the association.
And it's it's impressive to see.
SPEAKER_00 (31:46):
It really is.
Yeah.
I think I remember you tellingme that, you know, uh the
younger managers, the youngerprofessionals, you know, they're
also starting to show updifferent, a little bit more
hungrier, more intentional.
What do you do do you think it'sit's the shifts in the
association in the industry thatare kind of helping with that?
(32:08):
And maybe, you know, and justkind of like, you know, in terms
of the education and how justeveryone is showing up, do you
think it's forcing them to showup different also?
SPEAKER_01 (32:17):
Yeah, I I think it's I think it's partly that.
I think that hunger and desireis a willing to is a willingness
to be a part of an industry thathas a lot to offer them.
Um I think they see the privateclub industry as something that
is a place where they can reallygrow.
(32:38):
And so because they see that,they wanna they wanna take uh
take it seriously.
I don't want to say that in inthe past that our managers
didn't take it seriously becausethey did.
But it's a different level ofcommitment, it's a different
level of focus that I've seen.
You're not just gonna have um,and I don't know the numbers,
(33:01):
but you know, over the lastseveral years, we've had the
membership just grow like weedsto where now, I guess we're
somewhere hovering around that8,000 number mark where the
conference conference is, Ithink last year's conference was
maybe a little above 4,000.
You're not gonna you're notgonna have that from people who
(33:23):
aren't dedicated, who aren'tcommitted to their professional
development.
And it's really the youngerpeople who they're driven.
I mean, they're they're driven,man.
They they want more.
They want more.
They also feel like, and I thinkthere's a generation that feels
like whether I've come out ofcollege with a degree, or
(33:45):
whether I've been in the inindustry for 20 something or 15
years from the ground, that I'mhere.
I want more.
I see that there's so much more.
I see that I could be a GM ormaybe an AGM somewhere, and they
want that.
And they they know they have tohave a certain level of
commitment and focus in order toget that.
(34:05):
And it's and that again isimpressive.
SPEAKER_00 (34:09):
And this is me, you know, I'm I'm just I'm just
shooting from the hip and justyou know, making like
assumptions.
But, you know, do you think it'smaybe also like I don't want to
say the vibe is changing, butnow it's you know, it's it's
changing from that old schoolmentality of like, oh, you gotta
put in your, you know, maybe oneday you can be here, you know,
my level if you're here for 20years.
(34:29):
Like I feel like like the theit's changed a bit where if you
are people like hungry and likeintentional, but like if you
have that, you don't necessarilyhave to wait the 20 years to get
the coveted position.
Like there might be a club, youknow, if you put in the work, do
the effort, you know, you'rearound good people, you know,
surround yourself with amazingpeople, like you can get to
(34:50):
where you want to be possiblyquicker.
Um, you don't have to like youknow be you know beholden to one
single person.
Um I don't know.
I don't know if that made anysense at all.
Maybe you're trying to puthopefully you picked up what I
was trying to put put down, butI feel like you know, uh, and I
don't know if it doesn't makejust be me just from when we're
going to a BMI, but just fromlistening to other people, I
(35:12):
also feel like maybe the vibehas changed in those as well, or
just different educations whereI wouldn't say people would say
it was like half vocation, halfeducation, but I feel like now
people just, you know, metalking to club managers and
people, and you know, when Iwhen I interact, it's they're
more locked in and the and theBMIs and the educations, like,
(35:32):
yes, it's still fun, you know,there's fun elements and all
that, but like I feel like it islike a lot more locked in and
people are more dialed in.
SPEAKER_01 (35:39):
I I think you are onto something there.
Uh there is, and and again, I'mI'm I'm only 10 years into this
position, but there is, I think,uh, a feeling that yes, I can
achieve quickly.
I can get into certain positionsquickly.
(36:00):
Because there are a lot ofopportunities out there.
There are a lot of opportunitiesout there.
There are there's a there therecan be a lot of um movement and
transition and put between thesesome of these jobs.
And I think the members see thatand they want to be a part of
that, right?
You get a taste of something,whether it's you know, uh a
(36:21):
dining room supervisor, you wantthat next, you want to be an FB
manager, you uh you FB manager,you want to be now clubhouse
manager or AGM.
Like you get that taste for itand you're looking for the next
thing.
And some of them see that Imight be able to get that more,
you know, more quickly than I itwas in the past.
You know, yeah, it's not um it'snot the way you have uh a GM or
(36:46):
someone like that who's saying,you stick with me for X amount
of years, and you'll you youwill climb that ladder.
No, you could go all over thecountry, right?
You can go wherever you want togo, wherever you'd like to be,
and probably achieve the samelevel of climbing, ascending
(37:06):
that ladder as you wouldprobably more efficiently than
just staying in one club for 15years.
So there are opportunities allover the country, Danny.
We have clubs, you know, what,close to 3,000 clubs, you know,
all in within our membership.
And so there are opportunitiesall over, and people are looking
for those.
(37:27):
And so part of that is what theyknow is the CCM.
If I want to be a part of that,let me jump into that CCM
program and get the education.
My GM says I need it, right?
So every, like if I'm here in uhAlabama, I'm at a club in
Alabama and someone got mestarted on the BMIs, and I'm
gonna move to Maryland and get ajob there, I'm gonna have
(37:48):
conversations with those uhleaders in Maryland and say,
hey, I'm a part of CMAA.
Are you gonna support this?
Yeah, we'll support it.
Great.
Let me jump in here.
And you know, two, three yearslater, there's an opportunity to
be an AGM somewhere.
I'm gonna go to Connecticut, I'mgonna have those same
conversations.
Do you guys support CMAA?
Yeah, we do we support CMA.
(38:09):
Okay, great.
Now that's in my budget, and Ican go continue my my education.
So yeah, it I I think it does,it is different now.
I'm not in the industry, so Ireally can't speak to that
directly, but just from what Ifeel and what I see, and how
many how I see our demographicshave changed in the BMIs, how
(38:32):
many more women are in BMIs nowthan they were before.
Just last week in Atlanta, therewere five African Americans in
one program.
Danny, 10 years.
10 years, I think the most thatI ever seen was two.
There were five in one program.
And so that's just that'sanother sign that things are
growing.
People are out there and peopleare getting opportunities to get
(38:55):
the education, right?
Whereas I think before you wouldhear, oh, you know, my GM's
gonna go to conference.
I'm not able to go toconference, or my GM's gonna go
to two BMIs this year.
You know, it's not in the budgetfor me to go.
Not any longer.
Not any longer.
We these the leaders of clubs,GMs, they're like, hey, let me
(39:19):
put my people out there.
I want to get them thateducation because they need it.
This is gonna be essential tothem doing their job um better.
So let me get them out front andand get more education.
So it's a lot of things that arehappening that really benefit
the members that also benefitbenefit CMAA.
Yeah, that growing is justtremendous.
SPEAKER_00 (39:40):
And there's so many opportunities inside the
individual chapters for the uhum for education.
Like I was just at the centralPA, they did their annual golf
fundraiser, and I think they hadone like their biggest turnouts
and you know, raised the some ofthe most money they have for you
know the education for thepeople inside the chapter, and
that's you know, people can useand take advantage of that.
(40:02):
A lot of people don't.
And I hear that from a lot ofchapters, just they're like,
hey, we have like you know,resources here, come and use
them.
Um, you know, if you don't ask,you don't know.
SPEAKER_01 (40:11):
That's exactly right.
We have chat our chapters, ourchapters do wonderful things.
Education-wise, they do greatthings.
And and some chapters have theresources to do more than
others, but so many of thechapters, even the ones who
don't necessarily have theresources, they try to provide
education to their members aswell.
They do a lot of good things, alot of good work.
(40:34):
And if they can't get at thenational level, that's the only
the best other best place, bestother place to get education is
at the chapter level.
We have so many good managingdirectors who are leading their
chapters and trying to really,really not just provide
education, but bring new peoplein, right?
If you're at a club, you're nota part of CMA, you don't know
(40:57):
anything about CMAA, come to achapter meeting and you can
learn so much more about CMAsometimes, which you may be
missing.
Someone may have been saying toyou, hey Denny, over the last
five years, hey Denny, come to achapter meeting.
No, I got work, or no, the clubis having this event.
And then finally you're able tocome and you're like, wow, man,
(41:19):
this was great education.
Come on in, you know, sign up,become a member, become a member
of the chapter, and then yeah,you're part of the education on
a more regular basis.
But even if you're not a member,come to chapter events.
Learn about CMA, learn aboutwhat the chapter has to offer.
You may not be able to come tonational events, but the
(41:40):
chapters are always there.
And like I said, those managingdirectors are doing great
things.
They're really, really, reallyworking hard to some of them.
A lot of work.
Listen, Denny, some of themcompeting with national, uh,
national office events.
They do great stuff.
So um, yeah, I think thechapters are a great resource
(42:01):
for us absolutely.
SPEAKER_00 (42:03):
Um where do you see the CMA CMAA education going in
the next five, 10 years?
Oh man.
Any any I'm sure I'm surethere's gotta be platforms or
formats or things you guys areyou know excited about.
SPEAKER_01 (42:17):
Well, as I said, the membership is growing, and with
a growing membership, um, wehave to create new programs.
And so, and we have a lot ofprograms that are content
specific, right?
So, like we have summits andsymposiums for HR professionals,
uh communication professionals.
We have a membership andmarketing summit.
(42:39):
Uh, I think down the road, we'relooking to do an IT summit or do
something with uh AI.
There are several things contentspecific that are like two-day,
three-day events that I thinkthe board and Jeff Morgan and
Jason Coleman's fellow arereally looking at maybe uh
growing and moving into adirection where we have the BMIs
(43:02):
and the CCN program here, but wealso have these other
educational offerings here, ourwellness summit.
We just had the wellness summit,I think that was in July, maybe
August, I don't remember.
But the wellness summit was inFlorida.
Those are our wellnessprofessionals, spa, fitness,
we're you know, we're we're inthat area and that's gonna grow.
(43:24):
I think we're already planningfor the next one next year.
So there are content-specificthings that are not necessarily
tied in to the certification andto the BMIs that we want to put
over here and make it specificfor these professionals.
And they can get education.
They don't necessarily have toalways come to a BMI to get that
(43:47):
education.
They can get somethingspecifically for them.
Just HR, just the communicationfolks, um, our leadership
summit, our governance summit,things that are content specific
for a couple of days, or maybeif it's just one day, and those
look those are gonna grow.
And I I see that's where theassociation is is gonna um
(44:09):
continue to grow and develop inthat in that type of area.
Yep.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (44:13):
And and being in the industry, you know, 10 10 years
now, is there anything thatyou've learned or picked up
about leadership just fromwatching and being around, you
know, GMs?
SPEAKER_01 (44:27):
I I think the ones that um the ones who are willing
to communicate, the ones who arewilling to uh lead, and when I
say lead, not just lead byexample, but be a voice to their
to their uh employees, to thepeople who are working with them
every day.
Some of our some of our GMs whoare uh been in their positions
(44:51):
for quite some time and are wellrespected, they're the ones who
have been really goodcommunicators.
You can kind of see, it's almostlike, you know, what do they say
about the in athletics, thecoaching tree, right?
Yeah.
It's the same thing, right?
You you see so many GMs or AGMsor people who were in certain
(45:11):
positions and they came fromthis one club, right?
You you you know, we got acouple of clubs, like a club in
it, there's a club in Atlanta,and I don't want to uh, you
know, uh speak it specificallybecause I don't want to leave
someone out, but for example,there's a club in Atlanta, they
have their own tree where theyhave like five or six GMs across
the country that came fromthere.
(45:31):
There's a club in Arizona,there's a club in Florida, you
know, there's a club up northwhere these GMs, they're just
putting people and giving themthe knowledge and skills where
they're just putting GMs inplaces all across the country.
And it's really because that GMwho is at the heart of that tree
(45:52):
just gives them the experienceto grow and develop and really
um the knowledge and skills thatthat they need to move on and go
somewhere else.
And it and it's not a situationwhere someone will say, Oh,
well, you know, I I've givenyou, uh I've provided you the
education, the CMA, I'veprovided you whatever uh freedom
(46:14):
to do everything here.
No, no, no, just stay here.
Just stay here, you'll be fine,right?
No.
Go out.
You know, go out and be greatsomewhere else.
Take what I gave you and givethat to someone else, you know.
Go out and serve that membershipthe way you serve this
membership here, or go out andlead that team the way I led
(46:37):
you.
You know, it it's yeah, it's awonderful thing.
I've seen that, and those thoseleaders are the ones that are
highly respected, their namesare always out there, and
they've done they've done agreat job.
And and and you can see it inthe people who they've put out
uh at other clubs.
Yeah, you can definitely see it.
It's a good thing.
SPEAKER_00 (46:55):
Yeah, it's neat.
It's uh it it it reminds me alittle bit.
There's like an episode I havecooking.
Some I don't know what's what'sgoing on with it yet, but still
cooking.
But basically it's around oflike the idea of do you really
have influence?
Meaning like your leadershipstyle.
Do you really have influenceover other people?
(47:16):
Do you genuinely move people?
Like, do people actually followyou?
Do they actually do what yousay?
Do they, you know, take what yousay to heart and try to be
better and do better?
And it's like, you know, I thinkthere's like a difference
between like leadership and notlike leadership and influence,
but it's like, are you really,you know, influencing and being
(47:36):
a uh pivotal part of people'slives?
I don't know.
Something working on, but itkind of like that sort of like
kind of like touched.
I was like, oh, this is likekind of touching on it a little
bit there.
SPEAKER_01 (47:47):
Yeah, I I think I think you're on to something
there because and that's verytrue.
Uh how how have you influencedsomeone?
How have you touched someone ina way that says to them, I want
to be you.
I want to be you, but I want tobe better, right?
I want to take what you've givenme, what you've provided me, and
(48:09):
take that to a different level.
If not the same, make it evenbetter for the person that I
hopefully are able to influence.
And not everyone has that,right?
Like it, you don't we've seenit.
We've seen it where coaches, youknow, someone coached for, well,
I'll I'll I'll put this outhere.
(48:29):
Someone who's coached for BillBelichick, right?
And he was great with thePatriots, and Belichick gave
them autonomy to run thisposition or this this group, and
then they become head coach.
And they're not successful,right?
We've seen that happen.
So not everyone can do it, butthe ones who have really
(48:51):
listened, right, the ones whohave really taken all that
information in and really wereable to um uh get the framework,
put it all together, they're theones who are going to be able to
really flourish outside of thenest.
And I think influence is isreally a good a good word to use
(49:13):
in that influence.
How have how have you beeninfluenced?
And what does that what doesthat look like, right?
unknown (49:20):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (49:20):
Well, and I think sometimes people can see
influence as a bad word or anegative word, but you know,
because because you could beinfluenced bad.
Like you could be, you know,influenced in bad ways and
being, you know, badinformation, misinformation,
disinformation.
There's all that, but you know,but you know, there are good
ways of influence.
Um that I think is is reallyimportant.
(49:43):
Absolutely.
Especially in 2025.
I'm trying to put a positivespin on the word influence.
SPEAKER_01 (49:47):
This has been a great conversation.
Um, you know, it's been uh notjust always CMA focused, it's
more not just certificationfocused, it's been you know,
discussion about CMA as well anda little bit about the industry.
So I think this has been good.
It's been a good discussion.
SPEAKER_00 (50:04):
Yeah.
Well, well, hey, thank you somuch for coming on.
Thanks for sharing about theindustry, the certifications,
all that stuff.
And plus, it's been fun gettingto learn a little bit more about
Brian Brian Watkins, too.
SPEAKER_01 (50:15):
Absolutely, David.
And listen, thanks for havingme.
Uh, greatly appreciate it.
Um, I've heard so much aboutyour podcast, and uh, you know,
I really really invite for youfor you to invite me to the
bottom.
SPEAKER_00 (50:33):
Hope you all enjoyed that.
I know I did.
Brian, thank you so much forcoming out.
Thank you for thank you for allyou're doing for the club.
Until next time, the fuckingclub.
And Brian's journey is nothing but typical.
In this episode, we learn alittle bit more about Brian and
his background, what got him tohear with us at the CMFO, but we
dive into what's going on.
We dive into not just what areand what is CCMs and CECs and
all of those, but also what itreally takes to earn your CCM
(01:08):
and what that really means.
Now you didn't start off inclubs or hospitality.
You were you were a teacher,right?
SPEAKER_01 (01:16):
I was a teacher.
That's correct.
So I taught for five years.
I taught high school ninthgraders, uh club, uh, excuse me,
I've said club management.
Um I taught uh government toninth graders and then early
world history to 11th graders.
And so I got my master's degreein um 97 and the first, excuse
(01:42):
me, 98.
And the first summer break, thefirst day of summer break,
following my master's degree, Ilooked in the Washington Post.
And back then, excuse me, all ofthe newspapers had a thick
employment section on Sunday.
Washington Post mega job sectionwas, you know, about two inches
(02:04):
thick.
And I I said to myself, well,what what is in here or what's
gonna be in here that saysMasters of Education?
Opened it up, highlighted everyjob that said masters of
education, and what I found wasmost of those jobs were in
associations.
At that time, I had no clue whatan association was, other than
(02:27):
the fact that I was, you know,national, a part of the National
Education Association, or theone that was in my state at the
time.
So I applied to 12, gotinterviews at six, and I got
offered a job at the I BankAssociation of America, which
their members were I Banktechnicians where they would
(02:51):
take corneals and cadavers, uh,corneas and eye tissue off of
cadavers.
So my job.
SPEAKER_00 (02:59):
Oh I remember you telling me that, and it still
just gave me like the samechill.
Something about eyeballs.
Oh man.
SPEAKER_01 (03:06):
Listen, and they and they and they needed
professional development course,and they had a certification
program.
And I got in there, and withinlike, I think Denny, within the
first three months, I realized Imight be in over my head here.
Because I I she hired me and Ihad no experience.
(03:29):
None.
And so I was just, you know,keeping it afloat.
And I I said, okay, well, I Iremember telling the executive
director, I'm I'm I'm way inover my head here.
I'm gonna resign.
And she said, okay.
She said, well, why don't you goahead and look for another job
(03:50):
and you can stay here?
And I was like, okay, great.
SPEAKER_00 (03:55):
So she's like, are you sure?
Really?
Like that's such a cool moment.
And I feel like that sort of islike a segue into hospitality,
also, in like a very strangeway.
Like I feel like that's a veryhospitable thing to do.
Like not many people, companies,or organizations would do that.
SPEAKER_01 (04:12):
Well, I definitely felt that, and that was one of
the things about associations,very laid back, um, very uh
understanding.
And so, you know, I took thatopportunity to look for some
other positions, and I found amore entry-level position at the
American Speech Language andHearing Association, which is a
(04:33):
large association here inMaryland.
Um, membership of, at that timeit was 110,000, and now I think
it's probably closer to onethirty.
And I was at accreditationcoordinator, and I was on the
ground doing site visits withSLPs and audiologists and going
(04:53):
to colleges, and it was a greatexperience.
I learned a lot aboutassociations there.
SPEAKER_00 (04:58):
It's so weird.
You went from from uh from thevision in the eyes to site
visits.
SPEAKER_01 (05:04):
Sorry, I've I've told this story many times, and
you're the only one who's putthat together.
SPEAKER_00 (05:17):
That's that's today's episode.
That's today's episode.
SPEAKER_01 (05:21):
Have a good day.
God bless.
Good night.
SPEAKER_00 (05:23):
Mic drop, I'm out.
Oh well, no.
Uh that is that is so look likethe when you you told me that
too, and then I remember thefirst thing it clicked was it
was interesting.
You just you you stuck to likethe body almost.
Like you went from the eyes tothe ears, no, you know, you got
you got all the you know all thesenses working.
SPEAKER_01 (05:42):
Very good connection.
You know, I never thought aboutthat until you just said
something.
That was a very connection.
Yeah.
Interesting.
SPEAKER_00 (05:51):
Interesting.
So, you know, because noteverybody falls in love with
certifications and associationsand continuing ed.
You know, what grabbed you aboutit?
And then how did you get into,you know, how'd you find your
way into CMAA?
SPEAKER_01 (06:08):
Well, it's a different way of educating.
It's a different way ofeducating, it's a different
demographic, right?
So you go from educatingyoungsters to now um educating
uh young adults and adults, andreally people who have a passion
for what they do, helping themdown the path with that passion.
(06:31):
And that's that's what I foundinteresting.
Um being a part of association,you see the members and how
passionate they are about uhtheir careers, and just wanting
to help them grow in that careerand grow professionally in that
career, and that requireseducation.
And so being able to createeducation programs or being able
(06:54):
to help them down the path ofcertification, I just found that
interesting.
It's something that um, youknow, it's a thing that we need
in our society, right?
We we don't always think aboutthe borrower is licensed or
certified.
Our mechanics need to belicensed and certified.
Those people who come in ourhomes doing HVAC, those people
(07:16):
who are licensed and certified.
And so really is a service, Iguess, to our society to help
make sure those individuals havethe education that they need,
the knowledge and skills to dotheir jobs in a way that
provides a service to everyoneelse.
SPEAKER_00 (07:33):
Yeah.
And I'm sure it's it's when youwork with, you know, and not
just the club managers, but whenyou were working with the
different, you know,organizations and different
people, it's I I would assumeit's it's a different sort of
education and a different sortof buy-in that you get as
compared to when meaning, youknow, when people want to learn
and they want to be there for,you know, and they want to
(07:55):
continue versus just you knowhaving to be there.
Or, you know, I'm not sayingthat there's a difference
between like kids and adults andyou know, young adults in
school, but I think there'sprobably a difference when like
people are like the the buy-inis there and they're excited and
they're in the industry andthey're excited for what's
coming and they want to learn asmuch as they can and just be
like a sponge.
SPEAKER_01 (08:14):
That's you know what I compare it to, I go back to
the kids, right?
So those are who are in ninthgrade, their first year of high
school, they don't necessarilyhave the buy-in, right?
I mean, they know they have totake classes, they don't even
know or think about whatrequired what classes are
required for graduation.
They just know I'm here, mom anddad told me I have to be here.
(08:38):
There are some who are directlyum excited about their education
and learning, but then there areso many who at high school level
just like, I'm here, I want tograduate.
You get those 11th graders whoare now I've bought in because I
gotta think about college,right?
(08:59):
So now I'm really focused ongetting the education, getting
the lecture and the informationfrom the teacher.
And so that's the buy-in.
I equate that to where we arenow with certification, is that
our members have gotten to thispoint where, okay, this is going
to be my career.
So now let me take it to a nextto the next step.
(09:22):
And whether that means gettingall the professional development
so that I can serve my membersbetter, or making sure I get a
certification so I can haveadvancement, mobility, um, I can
tell someone that I have theknowledge and skills, whether
it's the um recruiters orsomeone who has a job to offer
me.
(09:42):
That's the buy-in.
And so once they have that, it'svery easy to have their
attention and provide theeducation for them to for them
to achieve.
It's really, it's really um froma from a from a education
perspective and and being infront of our members, it's very
(10:03):
interesting to see them andlisten to our speakers, get the
content, and then on the backend, like Friday or Monday
following, hear them, oh mygosh, that was a great program.
Everyone was just was sowonderful.
The message they delivered, theinformation I got, the
networking, it really makes itworthwhile that that, okay, I'm
(10:25):
doing something right here,trying to educate them in this
uh in this uh industry.
SPEAKER_00 (10:30):
Yeah, and you've you've probably found that
people take in and learndifferently too.
So you know, you've probablybeen to some VMIs and some
trainings, and you're like, man,you know, there was like a table
or a certain person, you'relike, they did not enjoy it at
all.
And they're like, they're likethe first ones in your inbox,
like that was the best eventever.
And you're like, can you havetold your face or something?
SPEAKER_01 (10:50):
Like, right, right, right, right, right.
As my mom, my mom used to say,mind your face, right?
Mind your face.
Your face should not, your faceshouldn't always say what you
think or how you feel.
Um, but when you do feel thatexcitement, feel free to let me
know.
Hey, I like it.
You know, you don't have to waituntil I see you at conference or
(11:14):
I see you a year later, or I seeyou at another program.
Man, that that program you hadin Atlanta, that was great.
Really?
Because I thought you hated it.
You know what I was like?
I didn't get that from you,buddy.
Yeah.
Yeah.
You're right.
SPEAKER_00 (11:29):
So uh remind the viewers, what exactly do you do
uh at and for the CMAA?
SPEAKER_01 (11:36):
Okay, so my primary role is director of
certification.
That's my title, certificationeducation.
Primarily, I'm responsible formaking sure our members get the
certification, go down thecertification path from
beginning to end.
And in that part of that isgoing to our BMI programs, our
BMI programs that we have, whichare required, four of them, go
(12:00):
into those programs along withmy other colleagues in the
education department, makingsure that um they meet the
eligibility requirements andthen get to the point of exam
and helping them, notnecessarily helping through the
exam, but helping them preparefor the exam.
So from beginning to end, uh, meand my colleague, Sonia
(12:20):
Prepinabar, we're responsiblefor helping them with the
certification process.
That's that's our role.
Aside from that, BMI is ourbusiness management institute.
I'm responsible for theplanning, coordination of those
programs as well.
So it's kind of a two-foldthere.
SPEAKER_00 (12:38):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Is there is there is thereanything that you do that people
may not realize that youactually do, or maybe something
that falls under yourjurisdiction?
SPEAKER_01 (12:49):
Oh wow.
SPEAKER_00 (12:50):
Um, more more so just like thinking like are
other things that you do for theassociation, maybe for the BMIs,
for the you know, for everythingthat maybe that you you have
your hands in or that you'reinvolved in that maybe you know
a normal club manager or anormal attendee might go, Oh, I
didn't realize that's under hisveil.
SPEAKER_01 (13:09):
Yeah, well, the BMIs.
I don't think that our membersrealize that I'm responsible for
the coordination of those a lotbecause my title is director of
certification, but I don't thinkCCM.
But yeah, um, I'm responsiblefor the coordination of the
BMIs.
We have five programs, and at Ithink four of the programs, we
(13:33):
have an on-site coordinator.
That on-site coordinator is sheor he are the ones that pretty
much work with the speakers tocreate the schedule ahead of
time.
But I have to work with them tomake sure they have the dates,
they have whatever presentationsthat they need, they have our
(13:53):
online platform set up and haveaccess to that to be able to
upload documents to that.
I do the correspondence betweenus and our members as they
prepare to go to the programs,the correspondence for like
confirmation when they registerfor the programs, the
confirmation letter theyreceive.
Um, if there are any incidentsor issues that happen on site,
(14:19):
I'm responsible for, um, as wellas Jason Coney's fellow who is
our chief learning officer.
Um, there are a lot of thingswith the BMIs that I don't think
our members realize that I haveuh hands on.
But um that's a good thingbecause they they're they're
just on for the ride, Danny.
They're just on for the ride.
SPEAKER_00 (14:39):
And it's a good thing.
And sometimes if if they knowyou're involved with something,
they're gonna want to talk toyou about stuff.
And it's like, no, there's otherpeople for that.
Like you need to tell me.
SPEAKER_01 (14:49):
Yeah, yeah.
You can talk to someone else,talk to you know, the
coordinator in Atlanta, or talkto someone in LA, but it doesn't
have to always come to me.
But it it does, and and it andit goes to my teammates as well.
There's six of us in thedepartment, and and they get
emails and phone calls orwhatever about things that
happen at programs, and thatgets passed on to me, and so I'm
(15:10):
able to usually figure out asolution for some of those
issues.
Yeah.
Yeah.
That's awesome.
SPEAKER_00 (15:17):
Now let's get into some certification talk.
You know, what you know, we'relet's talk about the CCM.
What's uh what does all of thatentail?
What goes into getting,becoming, and going through the
CCM process?
SPEAKER_01 (15:33):
Well, I won't get into the weeds of it, but I will
say we have five eligibilityrequirements.
One of those is, as I mentioned,our four BMIs, uh attending
World Conference, there's aprofessional membership
requirement, and then there'ssome other programs that they
have to attend.
And once they've met all those,there's a require there's a
(15:55):
credit requirement, once they'vemet all those requirements, then
they're eligible to sit for theexam.
And so what we tell most of ourmembers is it it should take you
about four to five years tocomplete the process.
There are some of our memberswho want to be on a fast track
and they think, oh, I'm gonnaget through all the programs in
(16:15):
two years or three years, andthen I'm gonna sit for the exam
really quickly.
It doesn't typically work likethat.
The way our um, I would say thethe creator of the BMI program
and the certification program,um, they want to make sure that
everyone goes through all ofthose programs so that they can
get that that knowledge andskills.
(16:36):
It's not just about you knowrushing to get the designation.
And so it's about the immersionof it all.
It's the process.
It's the process, right?
Um but hopefully they go throughthe process.
They go through our BMIs.
The required BMIs would be clubmanagement, which is a let's say
(16:56):
club, private club industryone-on-one program in Atlanta.
There's leadership principles,which um is in uh in LA at the
Jonathan Club, hosted by theJonathan Club.
Uh GMCO, which is on the campusof Michigan State University.
And then those three arerequired, and then they have an
elector.
(17:16):
So it's either food and beverageat University of Houston, sports
and recreation in Scottsdale, orBMI Golf in Jupiter, Florida at
Adam's Cove Club.
And um once they complete thoseand some other requirements,
then they're eligible to sit forthe exam.
It's um it's an experience andeducation-driven uh eligibility
(17:43):
process.
Yeah.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (17:45):
Yeah.
And in the test, is it uh, Ibelieve you have to get at least
a 70 in all of the aspects, inall of the competencies, in all
of the different sections.
So in even if it's, I believe,uh, and correct me if I'm wrong,
you know, I probably know enoughto be dangerous, but you know,
um, if there's, you know,there's golf, there's pool,
(18:06):
there's all those elements.
And even if you don't have thoseat your particular facility,
whatever, you still have to beencompassing and know all of the
different practices, so tospeak.
SPEAKER_01 (18:16):
Yeah, that's correct.
There, there are currently ourmembers are being tested on 10
competencies.
They are educated on 11, whichinformation technology is now
11, but we're not testing onthat now.
We're in the process of uhrewriting our contemporary
called management book, butthey're tested on 10.
And you have to pass 70%overall, and at least, and this
(18:40):
is where you are going, at least50% in each competency.
So if you get a 48 or 49 in,let's say accounting, and you
got a 71 overall, you have tosit for the entire exam all over
again.
And now we yeah, and and andDenny, I'm gonna tell you,
that's a tough conversation tohave to tell someone, hey, you
(19:03):
got uh 72, but you got a 48 infacilities.
That's a tough conversation.
But it happens, it happens.
SPEAKER_00 (19:13):
Um I've I've I've chatted to a few of those
people.
SPEAKER_01 (19:20):
Um but but the exam is fair.
And and if we get that close, ifyou have a 49 uh in one of the
competencies, or let's say youhave a 68, we will look at the
exam.
We'll we'll we do itautomatically.
Anyone who's that close willtake a look at the exam to see
if maybe one of the or a few ofthe questions scored or or
(19:43):
functioned improperly, and andwe will let you know.
And we will give you thosecredits if that or those points,
excuse me, if that was the case.
We've got to the point now wherewe're pretty good with where the
exam is, and so we haven't hadanything technology-wise that
could be an issue.
That's good.
So if it scores that tightly,it's it's true.
(20:05):
It's gonna be termed, yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (20:07):
It's your own damn fault.
No, right.
SPEAKER_01 (20:09):
That's what I say.
You know, uh no, I don't saythat.
I don't.
There's no way I can say that.
I don't say that.
No, no.
SPEAKER_00 (20:15):
Uh and and and CCM would be considered like the
bachelor's degree, right?
That is correct.
SPEAKER_01 (20:20):
Yeah, that is correct.
So we have the CCE, I meanexcuse me, CCM, which is our
bachelor's degree, as you said.
We have another anotherdesignation right after that.
That's the Honor Society.
Honor Society means you haveearned 400 credits post-CCM.
So from the time you get yourCCM, let's just say your clock
(20:42):
or your um your credits will goto zero.
So once you get the 400 and youattend either tactical or
strategic leadership, you willbecome uh an honor society
member.
Then we have the the chief,excuse me, certified chief
executive.
Now that's the master's leveldesignation that has both a
(21:08):
credit requirement as well asyou have to attend both tactical
and strategic leadership.
And you must be in an executive,GM, COO level for at least five
years.
So it wants you to also havesome experience to go on to that
education as well.
Uh and then the last one is theMaster Club Manager, which is a
(21:31):
doctorate level type program.
You come up with a topic, you umwork with the panel and the head
of that committee, you kind offlesh out everything, and um
they will edit your paper as youare going along, and then
eventually, hopefully, that willbe defended at conference and it
(21:53):
will be approved, and you willbecome a master club management.
We only have I think thenumber's 25 master club managers
in total.
SPEAKER_00 (22:02):
The holy grail.
SPEAKER_01 (22:03):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (22:04):
Yeah, that's it.
That's it.
That's it.
What what kind of personactually chases that level?
SPEAKER_01 (22:10):
I I think it's someone who is a umone who has
an extreme level of dedicationand commitment to the industry.
Someone who really is focused umon their professional
development, someone who's veryserious about their professional
(22:31):
development, someone who alsowants to enhance the industry
because all of those manuscriptsare always kept and we're and
they're posted on our website.
So anyone could take a look atthem and see what what uh the
topic was, and hopefully they'vedone their due diligence and
(22:51):
their studying and theirresearch to provide a really
nice manuscript for everyone inthe industry to go back and look
at and read.
So it's really someone who is ata different level of where they
want to be educationally.
Yeah.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (23:11):
Yeah.
You have those people, then youhave the ones who are like, eh,
I'm too busy, I don't have timefor this.
You know, just the whole thing.
SPEAKER_01 (23:18):
Well, you know, but then and uh a lot of our members
say that, and and they are busy,they are busy, but when you get
to that point, I think in yourcareer, you're you're delegating
a lot of what you do, right?
And so not to diminish their jobtheir jobs or their daily tasks,
(23:40):
but you do have a little moretime personally and
professionally to dig intosomething like that.
And and and we even expressthat, you know, don't don't,
even though we only have 25,take a look at it, consider it.
Once you get that CCE, considerthe MCM because it really may be
something that it may not bewhat you think it is.
(24:02):
It may not be the level ofcommitment of your time that
that you think it is.
SPEAKER_00 (24:08):
Well, I'm sure people even for you for their
CCM and their CCEs, you know,I'm sure you still get some of
those people who say, Oh, I'mtoo busy, I don't have time for
that.
What do you what do you even sayto those people?
SPEAKER_01 (24:20):
I I tell them to, it's a listen, certification is
not for everyone.
I I was just having thisconversation with uh last week.
It's not for everyone.
It's not for everyone.
You know, it and I mentionedyour auto mechanic, right?
Your auto mechanic, not everyauto mechanic is certified, ASC
(24:40):
certified.
Um, but do we want to havesomeone certified who's working
on my car?
Uh yeah.
I mean, it it it it tends to bethat that person is more
knowledgeable about everythingin the automotive industry in
terms of repairs.
Do you have to be in order to bea mechanic?
(25:01):
No.
Do you have to be certified tobe great in hospitality?
No, you do not.
But when you think aboutadvancement, when you think
about wanting to get the besteducation in terms of the
industry, you're gonna get that.
But also um the mobility.
So many of our clubs, whenthey're looking to hire, whether
(25:25):
it's a clubhouse manager or AGM,definitely at the GM level.
They look in it for CCNpreferred.
And so it's not required, butit's preferred.
And it's telling them that youhave the knowledge and skills
available to help take theirclub to another level.
(25:46):
And so I would say, you know,it's it's a part of a process.
It's not something that you'regonna run through quickly, but
be a part of that process.
Take the time to invest inyourself.
If you're not, and if the clubis willing to invest in you, you
definitely, if they're gonnainvest the financial um backing,
(26:07):
you definitely should takeadvantage of that and and start
the process of going towardsyour CCM.
It's not, like I said, you know,it's not gonna be something
that's gonna happen tomorrow,but it's gradual.
It's gradual.
So there's gonna be time.
You can make time for it,hopefully.
SPEAKER_00 (26:23):
And for the most part, you're going to the
meetings anyway.
You're you're doing, you'reshowing up, you're doing most of
the work, right?
The hardest part is showing up,and you're showing up most of
the time to a CCM event or CCMAA events.
Like you're getting credit,you're doing just do the little
extra work.
Like just do the extra 10%.
Like that's really all it is.
Like showing up, just doingthat.
(26:43):
Are there any I don't know, likemyths or misunderstandings that
maybe people have about thecertain like any of the
certification processes?
SPEAKER_01 (26:52):
I I think uh some of the myths that we used to run
into was because there was atime maybe years ago, maybe I
don't know, maybe 13 years ago,where if you had if you had a
bachelor's degree, you didn'thave to take a certain number of
programs, or you could not takethe Atlanta program or not take
the LA program.
(27:13):
That doesn't exist anymore.
We're at the point where theboard wants everyone to take all
of the programs so they can beuh well-rounded, right?
Yeah.
Um, I I don't know that thereare any myths per se.
It's just things that arefocused on our eligibility
requirements.
There's some hearsay andspeculation, things, just you
(27:35):
know, word of mouth.
People playing phone and they'regetting the wrong information.
So what we really are trying todo, Denny, is push them towards
the website, but you know, noteveryone wants to read, not
everyone wants to take the timeto read.
Or we'll do the certificationpresentation.
I've done several at the chapterlevel, I've done several at the
(27:57):
BMIs.
We even have a YouTube videowhere I've done that
presentation, and we just askthem to, if they have any
questions, like you're saying,that there's some misinformation
out there, just reach out to usand we'll answer that, whether
it's a phone call or or anemail.
We can, you know, provide theinformation you need so that
(28:18):
there are no you know gaps in interms of uh information.
Um that's I I know our ourcommunication department does a
great job at putting out a lotof information.
And as you know, um some peoplehave the opportunity.
I will say I'll say it this way.
Some people have the opportunityto read it, some people don't
(28:41):
have the opportunity to read it,but they need to take that
opportunity and read it becausethere may be some stuff that
they're just missing, right?
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (28:50):
Just per your last email.
No, I'm kidding.
Uh it's it's gonna be reallycool seeing so many people go
through and start and completethe journey.
You know, what what do you thinkchanges in people from day one
to when they finally get thoseletters after their name?
SPEAKER_01 (29:12):
Um, I think it's in that process.
It's the it's their developmentin that process.
And it's not just the education,it's the relationships that they
build when they go to theprograms or when they go to
World Conference.
It's the relationships theybuild, it's their own
development, right?
They start to change as amanager.
(29:35):
They um get not just arteducation, but they learn from
other people.
And so by the time they get tothat point where they're ready
to walk across the stage,they're they're um they're far
more professional.
They're far more experienced inthe industry.
They've been exposed to a lot ofdifferent things, whether it's
(29:57):
from our education or fromconversation.
That they've had with theirpeers.
They've had the opportunity totalk to some of our seasoned
managers, right?
Some of our maybe their MCM orCCE and learn from them, take
get advice from them.
And so you can kind of see that,right?
You can see those who are middlemanagers, clubhouse manager, F
(30:22):
and B director, and how theyevolve into something bigger and
better.
And it's really, it's it's quiteimpressive.
And and and also when theybecome more involved in the
association, right?
They become a volunteer in theassociation.
They start getting involved onnational committees.
They become more involved at thechapter level, being on some of
(30:46):
those committees, or maybe evena chapter board.
So it's really impressive to seehow much they love CMAA, how
much they respect CMAA and allthat the association is able to
provide them.
I mean, I think that's one ofthe things that, as I, as an
association professional, havecome here from other
(31:08):
associations and seen how muchthe members love what the
association does for them.
And that's just willing to getback.
They're willing to get back, bea part of it.
They are super active and superenthused.
But to see that development fromthe beginning to where they walk
across the stage, all of that isin there, and it's it's quite
(31:29):
impressive.
And those are people that youtend to hold on to.
You know their faces, you knowtheir names, you see them at all
the events.
Those are the ones that arereally growing, but they're
growing inside the association.
And it's it's impressive to see.
SPEAKER_00 (31:46):
It really is.
Yeah.
I think I remember you tellingme that, you know, uh the
younger managers, the youngerprofessionals, you know, they're
also starting to show updifferent, a little bit more
hungrier, more intentional.
What do you do do you think it'sit's the shifts in the
association in the industry thatare kind of helping with that?
(32:08):
And maybe, you know, and justkind of like, you know, in terms
of the education and how justeveryone is showing up, do you
think it's forcing them to showup different also?
SPEAKER_01 (32:17):
Yeah, I I think it's I think it's partly that.
I think that hunger and desireis a willing to is a willingness
to be a part of an industry thathas a lot to offer them.
Um I think they see the privateclub industry as something that
is a place where they can reallygrow.
(32:38):
And so because they see that,they wanna they wanna take uh
take it seriously.
I don't want to say that in inthe past that our managers
didn't take it seriously becausethey did.
But it's a different level ofcommitment, it's a different
level of focus that I've seen.
You're not just gonna have um,and I don't know the numbers,
(33:01):
but you know, over the lastseveral years, we've had the
membership just grow like weedsto where now, I guess we're
somewhere hovering around that8,000 number mark where the
conference conference is, Ithink last year's conference was
maybe a little above 4,000.
You're not gonna you're notgonna have that from people who
(33:23):
aren't dedicated, who aren'tcommitted to their professional
development.
And it's really the youngerpeople who they're driven.
I mean, they're they're driven,man.
They they want more.
They want more.
They also feel like, and I thinkthere's a generation that feels
like whether I've come out ofcollege with a degree, or
(33:45):
whether I've been in the inindustry for 20 something or 15
years from the ground, that I'mhere.
I want more.
I see that there's so much more.
I see that I could be a GM ormaybe an AGM somewhere, and they
want that.
And they they know they have tohave a certain level of
commitment and focus in order toget that.
(34:05):
And it's and that again isimpressive.
SPEAKER_00 (34:09):
And this is me, you know, I'm I'm just I'm just
shooting from the hip and justyou know, making like
assumptions.
But, you know, do you think it'smaybe also like I don't want to
say the vibe is changing, butnow it's you know, it's it's
changing from that old schoolmentality of like, oh, you gotta
put in your, you know, maybe oneday you can be here, you know,
my level if you're here for 20years.
(34:29):
Like I feel like like the theit's changed a bit where if you
are people like hungry and likeintentional, but like if you
have that, you don't necessarilyhave to wait the 20 years to get
the coveted position.
Like there might be a club, youknow, if you put in the work, do
the effort, you know, you'rearound good people, you know,
surround yourself with amazingpeople, like you can get to
(34:50):
where you want to be possiblyquicker.
Um, you don't have to like youknow be you know beholden to one
single person.
Um I don't know.
I don't know if that made anysense at all.
Maybe you're trying to puthopefully you picked up what I
was trying to put put down, butI feel like you know, uh, and I
don't know if it doesn't makejust be me just from when we're
going to a BMI, but just fromlistening to other people, I
(35:12):
also feel like maybe the vibehas changed in those as well, or
just different educations whereI wouldn't say people would say
it was like half vocation, halfeducation, but I feel like now
people just, you know, metalking to club managers and
people, and you know, when Iwhen I interact, it's they're
more locked in and the and theBMIs and the educations, like,
(35:32):
yes, it's still fun, you know,there's fun elements and all
that, but like I feel like it islike a lot more locked in and
people are more dialed in.
SPEAKER_01 (35:39):
I I think you are onto something there.
Uh there is, and and again, I'mI'm I'm only 10 years into this
position, but there is, I think,uh, a feeling that yes, I can
achieve quickly.
I can get into certain positionsquickly.
(36:00):
Because there are a lot ofopportunities out there.
There are a lot of opportunitiesout there.
There are there's a there therecan be a lot of um movement and
transition and put between thesesome of these jobs.
And I think the members see thatand they want to be a part of
that, right?
You get a taste of something,whether it's you know, uh a
(36:21):
dining room supervisor, you wantthat next, you want to be an FB
manager, you uh you FB manager,you want to be now clubhouse
manager or AGM.
Like you get that taste for itand you're looking for the next
thing.
And some of them see that Imight be able to get that more,
you know, more quickly than I itwas in the past.
You know, yeah, it's not um it'snot the way you have uh a GM or
(36:46):
someone like that who's saying,you stick with me for X amount
of years, and you'll you youwill climb that ladder.
No, you could go all over thecountry, right?
You can go wherever you want togo, wherever you'd like to be,
and probably achieve the samelevel of climbing, ascending
(37:06):
that ladder as you wouldprobably more efficiently than
just staying in one club for 15years.
So there are opportunities allover the country, Danny.
We have clubs, you know, what,close to 3,000 clubs, you know,
all in within our membership.
And so there are opportunitiesall over, and people are looking
for those.
(37:27):
And so part of that is what theyknow is the CCM.
If I want to be a part of that,let me jump into that CCM
program and get the education.
My GM says I need it, right?
So every, like if I'm here in uhAlabama, I'm at a club in
Alabama and someone got mestarted on the BMIs, and I'm
gonna move to Maryland and get ajob there, I'm gonna have
(37:48):
conversations with those uhleaders in Maryland and say,
hey, I'm a part of CMAA.
Are you gonna support this?
Yeah, we'll support it.
Great.
Let me jump in here.
And you know, two, three yearslater, there's an opportunity to
be an AGM somewhere.
I'm gonna go to Connecticut, I'mgonna have those same
conversations.
Do you guys support CMAA?
Yeah, we do we support CMA.
(38:09):
Okay, great.
Now that's in my budget, and Ican go continue my my education.
So yeah, it I I think it does,it is different now.
I'm not in the industry, so Ireally can't speak to that
directly, but just from what Ifeel and what I see, and how
many how I see our demographicshave changed in the BMIs, how
(38:32):
many more women are in BMIs nowthan they were before.
Just last week in Atlanta, therewere five African Americans in
one program.
Danny, 10 years.
10 years, I think the most thatI ever seen was two.
There were five in one program.
And so that's just that'sanother sign that things are
growing.
People are out there and peopleare getting opportunities to get
(38:55):
the education, right?
Whereas I think before you wouldhear, oh, you know, my GM's
gonna go to conference.
I'm not able to go toconference, or my GM's gonna go
to two BMIs this year.
You know, it's not in the budgetfor me to go.
Not any longer.
Not any longer.
We these the leaders of clubs,GMs, they're like, hey, let me
(39:19):
put my people out there.
I want to get them thateducation because they need it.
This is gonna be essential tothem doing their job um better.
So let me get them out front andand get more education.
So it's a lot of things that arehappening that really benefit
the members that also benefitbenefit CMAA.
Yeah, that growing is justtremendous.
SPEAKER_00 (39:40):
And there's so many opportunities inside the
individual chapters for the uhum for education.
Like I was just at the centralPA, they did their annual golf
fundraiser, and I think they hadone like their biggest turnouts
and you know, raised the some ofthe most money they have for you
know the education for thepeople inside the chapter, and
that's you know, people can useand take advantage of that.
(40:02):
A lot of people don't.
And I hear that from a lot ofchapters, just they're like,
hey, we have like you know,resources here, come and use
them.
Um, you know, if you don't ask,you don't know.
SPEAKER_01 (40:11):
That's exactly right.
We have chat our chapters, ourchapters do wonderful things.
Education-wise, they do greatthings.
And and some chapters have theresources to do more than
others, but so many of thechapters, even the ones who
don't necessarily have theresources, they try to provide
education to their members aswell.
They do a lot of good things, alot of good work.
(40:34):
And if they can't get at thenational level, that's the only
the best other best place, bestother place to get education is
at the chapter level.
We have so many good managingdirectors who are leading their
chapters and trying to really,really not just provide
education, but bring new peoplein, right?
If you're at a club, you're nota part of CMA, you don't know
(40:57):
anything about CMAA, come to achapter meeting and you can
learn so much more about CMAsometimes, which you may be
missing.
Someone may have been saying toyou, hey Denny, over the last
five years, hey Denny, come to achapter meeting.
No, I got work, or no, the clubis having this event.
And then finally you're able tocome and you're like, wow, man,
(41:19):
this was great education.
Come on in, you know, sign up,become a member, become a member
of the chapter, and then yeah,you're part of the education on
a more regular basis.
But even if you're not a member,come to chapter events.
Learn about CMA, learn aboutwhat the chapter has to offer.
You may not be able to come tonational events, but the
(41:40):
chapters are always there.
And like I said, those managingdirectors are doing great
things.
They're really, really, reallyworking hard to some of them.
A lot of work.
Listen, Denny, some of themcompeting with national, uh,
national office events.
They do great stuff.
So um, yeah, I think thechapters are a great resource
(42:01):
for us absolutely.
SPEAKER_00 (42:03):
Um where do you see the CMA CMAA education going in
the next five, 10 years?
Oh man.
Any any I'm sure I'm surethere's gotta be platforms or
formats or things you guys areyou know excited about.
SPEAKER_01 (42:17):
Well, as I said, the membership is growing, and with
a growing membership, um, wehave to create new programs.
And so, and we have a lot ofprograms that are content
specific, right?
So, like we have summits andsymposiums for HR professionals,
uh communication professionals.
We have a membership andmarketing summit.
(42:39):
Uh, I think down the road, we'relooking to do an IT summit or do
something with uh AI.
There are several things contentspecific that are like two-day,
three-day events that I thinkthe board and Jeff Morgan and
Jason Coleman's fellow arereally looking at maybe uh
growing and moving into adirection where we have the BMIs
(43:02):
and the CCN program here, but wealso have these other
educational offerings here, ourwellness summit.
We just had the wellness summit,I think that was in July, maybe
August, I don't remember.
But the wellness summit was inFlorida.
Those are our wellnessprofessionals, spa, fitness,
we're you know, we're we're inthat area and that's gonna grow.
(43:24):
I think we're already planningfor the next one next year.
So there are content-specificthings that are not necessarily
tied in to the certification andto the BMIs that we want to put
over here and make it specificfor these professionals.
And they can get education.
They don't necessarily have toalways come to a BMI to get that
(43:47):
education.
They can get somethingspecifically for them.
Just HR, just the communicationfolks, um, our leadership
summit, our governance summit,things that are content specific
for a couple of days, or maybeif it's just one day, and those
look those are gonna grow.
And I I see that's where theassociation is is gonna um
(44:09):
continue to grow and develop inthat in that type of area.
Yep.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (44:13):
And and being in the industry, you know, 10 10 years
now, is there anything thatyou've learned or picked up
about leadership just fromwatching and being around, you
know, GMs?
SPEAKER_01 (44:27):
I I think the ones that um the ones who are willing
to communicate, the ones who arewilling to uh lead, and when I
say lead, not just lead byexample, but be a voice to their
to their uh employees, to thepeople who are working with them
every day.
Some of our some of our GMs whoare uh been in their positions
(44:51):
for quite some time and are wellrespected, they're the ones who
have been really goodcommunicators.
You can kind of see, it's almostlike, you know, what do they say
about the in athletics, thecoaching tree, right?
Yeah.
It's the same thing, right?
You you see so many GMs or AGMsor people who were in certain
(45:11):
positions and they came fromthis one club, right?
You you you know, we got acouple of clubs, like a club in
it, there's a club in Atlanta,and I don't want to uh, you
know, uh speak it specificallybecause I don't want to leave
someone out, but for example,there's a club in Atlanta, they
have their own tree where theyhave like five or six GMs across
the country that came fromthere.
(45:31):
There's a club in Arizona,there's a club in Florida, you
know, there's a club up northwhere these GMs, they're just
putting people and giving themthe knowledge and skills where
they're just putting GMs inplaces all across the country.
And it's really because that GMwho is at the heart of that tree
(45:52):
just gives them the experienceto grow and develop and really
um the knowledge and skills thatthat they need to move on and go
somewhere else.
And it and it's not a situationwhere someone will say, Oh,
well, you know, I I've givenyou, uh I've provided you the
education, the CMA, I'veprovided you whatever uh freedom
(46:14):
to do everything here.
No, no, no, just stay here.
Just stay here, you'll be fine,right?
No.
Go out.
You know, go out and be greatsomewhere else.
Take what I gave you and givethat to someone else, you know.
Go out and serve that membershipthe way you serve this
membership here, or go out andlead that team the way I led
(46:37):
you.
You know, it it's yeah, it's awonderful thing.
I've seen that, and those thoseleaders are the ones that are
highly respected, their namesare always out there, and
they've done they've done agreat job.
And and and you can see it inthe people who they've put out
uh at other clubs.
Yeah, you can definitely see it.
It's a good thing.
SPEAKER_00 (46:55):
Yeah, it's neat.
It's uh it it it reminds me alittle bit.
There's like an episode I havecooking.
Some I don't know what's what'sgoing on with it yet, but still
cooking.
But basically it's around oflike the idea of do you really
have influence?
Meaning like your leadershipstyle.
Do you really have influenceover other people?
(47:16):
Do you genuinely move people?
Like, do people actually followyou?
Do they actually do what yousay?
Do they, you know, take what yousay to heart and try to be
better and do better?
And it's like, you know, I thinkthere's like a difference
between like leadership and notlike leadership and influence,
but it's like, are you really,you know, influencing and being
(47:36):
a uh pivotal part of people'slives?
I don't know.
Something working on, but itkind of like that sort of like
kind of like touched.
I was like, oh, this is likekind of touching on it a little
bit there.
SPEAKER_01 (47:47):
Yeah, I I think I think you're on to something
there because and that's verytrue.
Uh how how have you influencedsomeone?
How have you touched someone ina way that says to them, I want
to be you.
I want to be you, but I want tobe better, right?
I want to take what you've givenme, what you've provided me, and
(48:09):
take that to a different level.
If not the same, make it evenbetter for the person that I
hopefully are able to influence.
And not everyone has that,right?
Like it, you don't we've seenit.
We've seen it where coaches, youknow, someone coached for, well,
I'll I'll I'll put this outhere.
(48:29):
Someone who's coached for BillBelichick, right?
And he was great with thePatriots, and Belichick gave
them autonomy to run thisposition or this this group, and
then they become head coach.
And they're not successful,right?
We've seen that happen.
So not everyone can do it, butthe ones who have really
(48:51):
listened, right, the ones whohave really taken all that
information in and really wereable to um uh get the framework,
put it all together, they're theones who are going to be able to
really flourish outside of thenest.
And I think influence is isreally a good a good word to use
(49:13):
in that influence.
How have how have you beeninfluenced?
And what does that what doesthat look like, right?
unknown (49:20):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (49:20):
Well, and I think sometimes people can see
influence as a bad word or anegative word, but you know,
because because you could beinfluenced bad.
Like you could be, you know,influenced in bad ways and
being, you know, badinformation, misinformation,
disinformation.
There's all that, but you know,but you know, there are good
ways of influence.
Um that I think is is reallyimportant.
(49:43):
Absolutely.
Especially in 2025.
I'm trying to put a positivespin on the word influence.
SPEAKER_01 (49:47):
This has been a great conversation.
Um, you know, it's been uh notjust always CMA focused, it's
more not just certificationfocused, it's been you know,
discussion about CMA as well anda little bit about the industry.
So I think this has been good.
It's been a good discussion.
SPEAKER_00 (50:04):
Yeah.
Well, well, hey, thank you somuch for coming on.
Thanks for sharing about theindustry, the certifications,
all that stuff.
And plus, it's been fun gettingto learn a little bit more about
Brian Brian Watkins, too.
SPEAKER_01 (50:15):
Absolutely, David.
And listen, thanks for havingme.
Uh, greatly appreciate it.
Um, I've heard so much aboutyour podcast, and uh, you know,
I really really invite for youfor you to invite me to the
bottom.
SPEAKER_00 (50:33):
Hope you all enjoyed that.
I know I did.
Brian, thank you so much forcoming out.
Thank you for thank you for allyou're doing for the club.
Until next time, the fuckingclub.
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