August 1, 2023 • 30 mins
How often do we feel obligated to fit into a certain mold to progress in our careers?
Is there a way to break free from this pattern and become the leader we desire to be?
Find out as we welcome Kneisha Sanders to our show.
Kneisha, an executive coach, diversity and inclusion expert, and author, shared her insights on how she empowers leaders to make choices that align with their true selves rather than conforming to established norms.
Kneisha doesn't stop there. She brings a unique approach to leadership by integrating faith into business, believing it's an instrumental tool for leaders.
To connect with Kneisha Sanders online, visit:
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kneisha-sanders/
Website: https://www.kneishasanders.com/
Article 1: "Is the Whirlwind Spiraling into Burnout? 5 Ways to Claim Back your Time and Peace of Mind"
Article 2: "Stop the Whirlwind and Deliberately Lead Energetic Teams: 9 Things to Consider when Burnout Leaders are Managing Burnout Employees"
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Dr. Pelè (00:00):
Hello happy people, welcome to the Profitable
Happiness Podcast.
Hello everyone, this is Dr.
Pelè with the ProfitableHappiness Podcast, and today I
have Kneisha Sanders with me.
Naisha is an executive coach.
She is an expert in the fieldof diversity and inclusion.
(00:22):
She is an author.
Naisha, you bring the wholepackage and today I just want to
sit back and learn from youexactly how it is that you talk
about employees having a choicePowerful topic.
You know, I know that so manyof us go to work and sometimes
you don't realize what powersand abilities and capabilities
we have and we just don't knowwe can choose.
(00:44):
So I hope that you can sharethat with us today.
Naisha, how are you doing today?
Kneisha Sanders (00:49):
I am doing amazing and thank you so much
for having me and I'm excited tobe here to share on this topic.
Dr. Pelè (00:57):
Oh, I really appreciate that.
Now, Naisha, what I reallyreally appreciate about the way
I discovered you actually isyou're positioning as a catalyst
.
You're positioned as someonewho really gets people taking
action right.
You've covered everything fromexecutive coaching to even a
faith-based approach to employeeexperience and engagement.
(01:18):
I'd love to learn all aboutthat, but let's go ahead and
start from the beginning.
If you, Naisha, were todescribe the core challenge that
you deal with at organizations,what would that be?
Let's start from that.
Kneisha Sanders (01:30):
Yeah, I love that and I think that's a great
place to start when I thinkabout who I'm talking to.
Most frequently is the leadersin the organizations, whether at
the director, senior directorlevel, going up to C-suite or on
that pathway for C-suite.
And one of the things that Ifind is that there's this
(01:50):
obligation or sense that I haveto be a certain way.
I have to do it this waybecause of one the culture,
unspoken rules and the thingsthat has gotten them promoted.
It's like that's what I need todo if I want to continue
getting promoted.
And so it creates this sense ofobligation, this sense of I'm
(02:13):
going to do this for nowmentality, because ultimately,
my desired outcome is to beC-suite, so I'm going to just
play by the rules.
I'm going to play the game.
My incentive compensation isgreat, so I'll just keep on
collecting the bonus check.
But what happens is, when we'rein these conversations, what I
(02:35):
find is that they're overwhelmed, overworked and feel
ill-equipped to do the job thatthey're actually trying to do or
desiring to do.
And it's not because they'renot smart and it's not because
they don't feel as though theycan do it.
It really boils down to thissense of obligation they don't
want to, and it's if I couldchange or alter the position
(02:59):
this way, or if I could add moreinsight to how I did this job,
then I would be more excited orenergized by it.
But the truth of the matter isthey're not because of this
sense of obligation, and so Iwould say that the problem that
I helped solve is really helpingthem decide for themselves and
choose one, what type of leaderthey want to be, but then also
(03:21):
recognize the fact that there'sa multitude of ways to get there
.
And that just because one way isdefined you know this is the
pathway forth doesn't mean thatit has to be your particular
path forth.
Dr. Pelè (03:34):
And you still?
Kneisha Sanders (03:34):
get there, and so that is what I've been doing
a lot of work around over thepast couple of years.
Dr. Pelè (03:41):
Wow, you know.
First of all, I think that maybe one of the most important
topics in business period.
Let me back that statement up,because there's one word you
didn't use throughout the entirestatement you just made.
You didn't use the wordpolitics as an office politics,
yes.
But that's exactly what I'mthinking and feeling, because I
(04:02):
tell you, people are hiredbecause they're they're good at
something, they're they'reactually very talented or
skilled at something, and thenonce they show up, it's like
they got to learn how to playthis thing called office
politics.
Kneisha Sanders (04:16):
Exactly, that's exactly right yeah.
Dr. Pelè (04:19):
And so so I really appreciate that topic and I hope
you're going to share with ussome details about that.
But before we get there, youknow, I'm just wondering how did
you wake up and become Naisha,the catalyst of executive
coaching and diversity andinclusion in companies?
How did you?
What's your story?
Kneisha Sanders (04:37):
You know, I think it's probably through
personal experience.
You know, I I joined corporateAmerica first job out of
undergrad and I had to learn howto play those office politics
very early on and you know, Ifelt a lot along the way and
instead of you know and it tooka lot I will say this it took a
(04:59):
lot for me to not acceptfailures as I was the failure,
but to see failures as an event.
And so really a foundationaltruth early in my career was
failure is an event, not aperson, and that has really
allowed for me to perceivethings in different ways and new
(05:20):
life.
So, really, looking at myjourney and understanding, ok,
if I got a rejection or if I gotto know, or if I didn't figure
out, you know how to getmotivated to move forward, then
I knew that it was a matter of,it was a policy.
It was a moment for me, like itwas a moment of pause.
So really it says what wascreating the gap, what was
(05:42):
creating this sense of, I guess,underperforming or not being
able to overcome, and so itcreated a lot of anxiety, a lot
of burnout and, to be quitefrank, I was just tired of being
anxious and overwhelmed, and soI made a decision to no longer
(06:04):
do that and I had a uniqueopportunity in my corporate
career to move across a lot ofdifferent industries, a lot of
different leadership programs,and so I moved up really quickly
.
So I got a chance to see a lotin a very short amount of time,
and so that just informed who Iam.
And I wrote the book because Inoticed that what I had started
(06:29):
to think was just normal.
Other people were struggling,and they too were anxious, and
they too were feeling burnt outand hadn't yet overcome that.
And so my book was birthed, outof just the pure.
Let me document what I wentthrough, let me document how I
overcame it, and faith was a bigpart of that for me, and so I
(06:54):
wanted to share that, becausefaith isn't oftentimes
celebrated or accepted incorporate spaces, and so how do
you bring your faith to work tobe the tool to help you overcome
anxiety and overwhelm when it'snot necessarily accepted?
And so that was how the bookwas birthed.
(07:14):
It was truly out of study time,morning quotients, and I was
like, oh, I should probablypublish this.
And here we are, three yearslater, a published author.
Dr. Pelè (07:24):
Well, I am so happy that you published it and I'm
proud of you.
There's a saying that I keep onmy wall.
It says a leader is one whoknows the way, goes the way and
shows the way.
And when you take personalexperience, as you've done, and
you take it all the way toputting it in a format that
others can benefit from, mygoodness, bravo, thank you.
(07:46):
And, by the way, just to beclear for those who are watching
this or listening, the title ofNaisha's book is the Fruit of a
Spirit-led Leader, and we'llget into a little bit more
detail about the content of thatbook, but just wanted to make
sure that we place that way upfront there so everyone knows
(08:08):
what we're talking about.
Okay, so now we've talked aboutsort of what you consider the
challenge in organizations andyou've given us a sense of who
you are and how you got here.
Now, how do people listening gofrom?
Okay, I get it all right.
I agree, there's this thingcalled how do I lead, how do I
get through the maze of politicsand reality and business and
(08:31):
actually come out on top?
If you were to give, like yourtop three, pieces of advice for
how people can actuallydemonstrate they have a choice,
take the right choices and leadbetter.
What would that advice be?
Kneisha Sanders (08:46):
Yeah, I would say.
The first is definitely to getreal with yourself about the
place that you're in.
Don't sleep it under the rug,but really identify and
acknowledge that you arecurrently in that space of not
enjoying or feeling as thoughyou have an obligation to do the
(09:10):
work.
So that would be my number oneis acknowledge that you're in
that place.
The second thing I would say isunderstand what support you
actually need to make a decision.
And so in executive coaching,we really understand what's the
limiting beliefs and all of thethings that goes along with you
(09:33):
feeling as though you can't moveforward.
But I think that oftentimes welose sight that you don't always
need to go find an executivecoach to do that.
Sometimes it's our family,sometimes it's telling them what
we need them to stop doing.
You know what we need them todo more of.
Or maybe it's settingboundaries at work, but it's
truly sitting still long enoughto determine how would you make
(09:57):
the decision, what support wouldallow for you to actually
decide?
What you need to decide, mm-hmm.
Third, I would say, is Toaccept that you're worthy.
Let you have a passion, purposeand conviction for mm-hmm and so
you know that last part takessome work because it's
(10:17):
overcoming the identity crisisthat you are a posture syndrome
imposter syndrome it's it'sunderstanding the moments where
you lost confidence andRevaluating, you know, if you
misinterpreted those moments.
You know, oftentimes I thinkthat you see a failure and
you're like, oh, I'm a failure,I did it, I messed up, I could
(10:40):
have been better, I should havedone this, I should have done
that, and that might all be true, but had it worked, you
wouldn't have gone through allof that, and so take it as a
gift, as as insight.
Right now I have a way toevaluate what works for me, not
necessarily the system, notnecessarily other people, but me
(11:00):
specifically.
What works for me specifically.
And so I think that you knowgetting to that identity Plays,
you know understanding who youare as a leader, who you want to
be.
One of the things that I have alot of my clients do is think
about you know, no matter whereyou are in your career, but
let's just say you're stillactively in your your career.
Think about your retirementparty, and when you say, and
(11:24):
when other people stand in thefront of the room, what do you
want them to say about you?
What do you want them toremember you as like, who, who
you are?
And Oftentimes people don'twant to think about that, but at
the end of the day they're notgonna say you know you, you met
your revenue goal, you they'renot gonna say you know, we got
(11:46):
so much profit because of yourleadership.
They're gonna tell you how youmade them feel.
They're gonna tell you what itwas about you specifically that
made it a pleasure and enjoyableto work with.
And so you get to decide whatyou them.
You get to decide whatnarrative you want to to Share
(12:07):
so that you can allow them toperceive it however they choose.
So you can't you can't controlother people's perceptions, but
you can't control your narrative, and so the ultimate decision
is you deciding what is yournarrative, and then how do you
walk that out each and every dayin your job.
So that would be my three steps.
Dr. Pelè (12:28):
Now, that was a little masterclass.
I'm feeling like I got to putmy training hat on here and just
like play that back and learn.
That was powerful, and you knowsome of the things I really
appreciated the most there.
When you talk about an ultimatedecision, this takes us back to
your idea that we do have achoice.
We do have the ability tochoose a different path from
what we think we're being forcedinto.
(12:49):
That's really powerful and you,you talk about one of my
favorite topics.
I think it was Maya Angelo whosaid that people may forget what
you say or do, but they'llnever forget how you made them
feel.
Yes, so so.
So if you were able to choosehow you're gonna make people
feel almost as a Path forward,how powerful is that?
But you know, I want to bringthis back to the topic of faith,
(13:12):
because I know how importantthat is to you and how important
it is in your book and, in fact, for those who are listening in
and are not able to see thevideo right now.
Behind Naisha are threepowerful words love, joy and
peace.
So we've added to the story forus.
How does faith and love, joyand peace, how do those elements
(13:34):
actually come into play when itcomes to leadership and and
success in organizations?
Kneisha Sanders (13:40):
Yes.
So I would say you know,regardless of what your faith is
, is under the title or topic ofservant leadership.
How do you serve people first?
And how it was particularlycome into play for me is my
faith, is my code of conduct.
It is how I choose to walk out,my behavior, my way of being,
(14:05):
and so my particular way ofdoing that is through the fruit
of the spirit, which is love,joy, peace, patience, kindness,
goodness, faithfulness,gentleness and self control, and
through those nine things, Ithink of them as attributes, and
so in my mind, it's like okay,when I think about the moments
that I feel frustrated orangered in some sort of way.
(14:27):
We all have had those momentswhere you're working on a
project and your manager, youknow, changes the deliverable,
you know, or you have competingpriorities and you can't get
everything done, and it alwaysfeels like a moving target and
you're like why does the targetkeep moving?
I was working here and so we'veall been there, right, where
(14:48):
we've had competing prioritiesand just changing deliverables
or competing deliverables, andthat's frustrating, it's.
You know, you're, you're goingto have moments of anger, and
for me it's about okay.
In this moment, what am Igiving up?
Well, in that moment, I'mgiving up joy, I am giving up
this sense of, you know,pleasure in my work.
(15:10):
And so how do I go from thisidea of frustrated and angered
and just like I don't want to dothis, to reclaiming the joy of
doing it, and one of the waysthat I do that is just by
refocusing.
So it's like what am I focusingon?
Okay, well, if I'm frustrated,I am focusing on the, the, the
(15:33):
source right of frustration.
Right, either it's the manageror it's.
You know the project itself orit's.
You know all these unknowns,all these uncertainties, how I'm
going to miss the deadline, howI am now have to do extra work,
like when I'm frustrated.
I'm focused on me.
I'm focused on what is it is,you know, interrupting or
(15:59):
inconveniencing me and my day.
But if I refocus to think aboutit from the perspective of
service, I am thinking of it inthe fact of like okay, this is
frustrating, it keeps changing,but what is it that I need to
figure out?
Like, what is the problem thatI'm actually trying to solve?
What is it about what they justchange is impactful for what I'm
(16:22):
trying to do, and so it reallyis this exercise of refocusing,
and so that's one of the waysthat I use my faith as part of
my like, my leadership role incorporate or even as an
executive coach is don't be somoved by what you see right.
Be moved by what you believe in.
It is truly, if you have afoundational faith, you know, if
(16:44):
you have faith and that's abelief system use that, believe
in that, yeah, and lead in thatway so that, again, one you show
up authentically to you.
Don't compartmentalize yourlife where you're feeling like I
have to leave my faith at homeor in the backseat, when really
is is relevant to your day job,is a relevant to how you show up
(17:06):
, and so you know, once you getit on the inside of you, it's in
you and therefore, if you don'tshow up in that way, then
you're actually leaving a partof you behind.
And so, for me, I wear my faithon my sleeve because it's part
of who I am and it helps me getthrough those difficult and
challenging times when I'm inthe office.
Dr. Pelè (17:27):
You know, and good for you for embracing that.
I have to tell you that there'sa whole new world right now of
AI, for example, that allows youto do very interesting things.
For example, we could go on tochat GPT right now and we could
say, all right, tell me whatJesus Christ would do In this
(17:48):
situation I find myself in atwork, believe it or not.
It would take all of theteachings of Jesus Christ and it
would apply them to whateveryou say is going on at work and
it would give you arecommendation of what to do.
I mean, it is just powerful.
That is wow yeah and you know, Iknow because that's kind of the
field I mean, but in thesoftware field.
(18:09):
But the truth is that applyingfaith to business it's not a
nice to have.
For some people it is a musthave and it is a powerful,
powerful tool.
So thank you for sharing that.
If we were to just go one leveldeeper in this topic of your
books, or rather your book andhow you've applied faith to it
(18:33):
and things like that, tell us alittle bit about some of the
tools that you use.
I know that you are very muchinto assessments.
You have a strong partnershipwith different organizations to
do assessments to unearth what'sreally going on.
Tell us a little bit about yourfavorite tools for how you get
people on the right conversationabout how to fix things in
(18:54):
their leadership at work.
Kneisha Sanders (18:55):
Yeah, definitely.
So I would say the one tool,and again, maybe bias, but it's
everything.
Disc, that's a tool that I useto really get people present to
their preference, their naturalinclination, and I think
sometimes, again, we lose sightof what we naturally do.
(19:16):
And to appreciate what wenaturally do, because we see,
within whatever culture thatwe're in, whatever work culture
that we're in, what getscelebrated, what gets promoted,
and so we try to adapt ourselvesto that particular way of being
, when in reality we lose sightof what was special about who we
(19:36):
already are.
And so how does what we bring tothe table is valuable?
Now, there are times when it'sgoing to be more effective or
efficient for you to be one wayversus another like to be direct
.
We'll use an actual term.
So there's times when you needto be direct right, when if
(19:58):
you're passive and soft-spoken,it may not work, but there are
very.
There's just as many times thatit is efficient for you to be,
or effective for you to be,soft-spoken and thoughtful or
quiet, and so it's reallyhelping people really decide one
(20:18):
is it okay for me to be me?
And then how is it effective inthe culture that I'm in?
And then I think that's theother decision is is this a
place that I want to stay in?
Now, I'm not saying not to beflexible, I'm not saying not to
meet people where they are,because we're all capable of
that, but it's also about goingback to that identity crisis we
(20:41):
were talking about earlier ofhow do you appreciate who you
naturally are, and so that is atool that I use to really get
people present to that idea ofhere's what I naturally do,
here's my preferences, and thenfrom there it's really about
conversation.
It's really about how do youtake these insights and then
(21:04):
apply them.
So I'm really big on appliedknowledge and so, Drew, my
coaching.
I have a coaching process thatreally helped people discover,
you know, the specifics around.
What is it that is creatingthis outcome in my life?
Right, what I'm seeing, becausethe reality is, is what you see
is formulated from a belief youhad a thought you had that you
(21:26):
keep allowing to show up, and soit's really important for you
to get clear about your thinkingso that you can see something
different in the atmosphere.
And so I'm not going to preachso not like I was getting too
preachy, but really I mean,that's really what it boils down
to.
And so, you know, that's a toolthat I actively use.
(21:48):
I also, you know, as part ofcoaching.
I think coaching is reallyeffective.
Some people would say thatcoaching is not a tool, but in
my mind it is.
It's a mindset, it is a way ofdoing a thing, and so that would
be my second power tool iscoaching asking powerful,
thought-provoking questions andgiving people space to sit in
(22:10):
them, you know, and lean in thequestion, sit in the question
and give them an opportunity totake action, you know, challenge
them on.
What is it that you are goingto do to change the outcome to
be more enjoyable?
And not just because you wantto be happy, but because you
want to feel good about the workthat you do.
(22:31):
You want to add value you wantto, you know, operate in purpose
.
All of those things arefulfilling.
So really it's not just aboutbeing happy, it's really about
being fulfilled, and so that ishopefully that answers your
question, but that's how I,that's how it's coming for me
Coming up.
Dr. Pelè (22:49):
No, no, you're absolutely correct, and I think
there's there's a word you useda few times and that is outcomes
.
Right, and you know what arethe outcomes.
How are you feeling them inyour heart, your body, your mind
?
And, yes, you're right, it'snot about the sort of hedonic
happiness, the kind of happinessthat's about pleasure.
Hey, I feel good today.
It's not always about that, butit is about eudaimonic happiness
(23:11):
, which is the kind of happinessthat's about engagement, like
am I engaged in the work I do?
Do I?
Does time fly when I do thiswork?
Do I have flow?
Am I, am I really connected tothe mission and the purpose of
this organization?
And if I'm not, then I'm noteudaimonically happy and so and
so, when we so.
Thank you for bringing that up.
(23:32):
I love to help, to help peopleunderstand that profitable
happiness is not just about, youknow, the rah-rah type of
feeling.
It's really about theengagement that we feel as
employees and the employeeexperience being something we
want to continue to have.
Which brings us to our topic,right.
Like how do you connectProfitable happiness, the kind
(23:54):
of engagement happiness, withthe work you do?
What are the sort ofintersections between a
faith-based or a spirit-ledleadership and helping employees
be happy with the work they'redoing.
Kneisha Sanders (24:08):
Yeah, you know, I think the first thing that
comes to my mind is going backto something I mentioned earlier
of this idea of feeling worthy,and when I think about
profitable happiness, I think itgoes back to that idea of
passion, purpose, and I thinkthis is on your website passion,
purpose and conviction and Ithink that that is the
connection is when you decidethat you want to serve other
(24:31):
people or you decide that you'regoing to do the things that are
fulfilling, and oftentimes whatwe find is fulfillment comes
from helping other people,serving other people, from
knowing that you're doing goodin the world and that you've
done something that mattered.
That's when you have this senseof fulfillment.
And so how I connect the workis really you know, you don't
(24:54):
step, you can't just go to workand say you know, I think that
I'm going to be a finance persontoday.
You went to school, youprobably had a degree, you got
some certifications.
It was a process, it was ajourney to get there, and so
when I think about this leading,being spirit-led or
(25:15):
incorporating your faith or anyof the things we've talked about
so far, it's aboutunderstanding the journey.
It's about understanding whereyou, what started the journey.
Was it a desire for passion?
Was it a desire of you know,walking in purpose?
Was it a flat-out conviction orrevelation that you knew I just
(25:35):
have to do it this way now, andI think that when you do that,
then the outcome or the outputof that is the profitable
happiness, because now you'rewalking in it, you're applying
that knowledge that, oh no, thisis what it looks like for me.
This is what it feels like forme to operate in purpose.
(25:55):
This is what it feels like forme to have the courage to step
out on a conviction.
And I'll give an example reallyquickly.
A couple years ago, I felt astrong desire that it was time
for me to walk away from mycorporate job and do my business
full-time.
That wasn't, you know, justlike oh, let me wake up and
(26:17):
decide that one day.
It was truly a moment ofrevelation that it was time and
so for me to say that I'm, youknow, doing this full-time.
It was because I had a momentthat was like this is it.
This is now, and as a result ofthat, I feel fulfilled, right,
doing that work.
(26:37):
And there's a lot of decisions,other decisions that came along
with making that one, you knowprimary one but I think that's
the connection is that theprofitable happiness is the
outcome and the work that I dois really about the journey.
Dr. Pelè (26:52):
Yeah, no, powerful.
I appreciate that because a lotof people really do get stuck
in sort of a feeling at workwhere they have no choices, they
aren't happy with their workand they really don't know how
to change anything and they justsort of give up and go along
with the program.
And I think you empower peopleto connect the dots between your
(27:19):
work and your profitablehappiness, because if that
connection isn't there, you'lljust, you know, feel like you
have no direction, no purpose,right, as you said.
Kneisha Sanders (27:29):
Exactly, I love that.
Dr. Pelè (27:32):
What are you working on right now?
What are you excited about?
I mean, obviously you want toshare your book and I want to
make sure people know how to getthe fruit of a spirit led
leader.
But what?
What projects are you excitedabout now and how can people get
a hold of you to connect withthose projects?
Kneisha Sanders (27:49):
Yeah, I love that.
So yes, for me right now it'sreally about you know giving
people options of how they canlead.
You know, I think you know inmy career it was one way was you
know the command and controland the world is moving to.
You know, be more coach likeand trying to embrace that.
(28:11):
But I think it's criticallyimportant in a time that we're
in right now to know that that'snot just one that's, it's not
the one way to be.
And I think that for some of thepeople who are like, how do I
bring my faith to work?
How do I, you know, be all ofme at work without feeling like
I'm going to offend other peoplearound me?
(28:31):
I want to give them anotheroption, and so that's where the
book comes from.
Is is that's the heart of thebook and why I want to get that
to the marketplace that,although it's talking about
faith, it is for you and yourcorporate job, if you really
want to incorporate who you arespiritually and not feel like
(28:51):
you have to offend others.
And so that is always going tobe a consistent passion and joy
for me to do.
And then the other thing thatI'm working on is just really I
have a couple programs andframeworks.
That is really about, you know,navigating the employee
experience.
How do you and actually theframework is called you decide
framework, and it's all abouthow do you navigate your career,
(29:14):
how do you choose for yourselfwhat it is that you want to do
and not have to fall into theoffice politics.
And I just love coaching and soI do a lot of one on one group
coaching and facilitation,leadership development, training
.
So, yeah, like you mentionedearlier, dr Pallee, I love to do
it all.
(29:37):
That is awesome and where can?
Dr. Pelè (29:39):
people and where can people find you?
We obviously connected onLinkedIn, but do you have other
places that people should golook for you and your book?
Kneisha Sanders (29:47):
Yes, so either LinkedIn or you can just go to
my website, wwwnaisha sanderscom, and that is my first and last
name.
Dr. Pelè (29:59):
Okay, all right, I will make sure to have both the
LinkedIn and your websiteinformation below.
But, naisha, I just want to saythank you so much for being a
guest on the ProfitableHappiness Podcast.
Kneisha Sanders (30:10):
Yes, thanks so much for having me.
Dr. Pelè (30:13):
Awesome.
Hello happy people, welcome to the Profitable
Happiness Podcast.
Hello everyone, this is Dr.
Pelè with the ProfitableHappiness Podcast, and today I
have Kneisha Sanders with me.
Naisha is an executive coach.
She is an expert in the fieldof diversity and inclusion.
(00:22):
She is an author.
Naisha, you bring the wholepackage and today I just want to
sit back and learn from youexactly how it is that you talk
about employees having a choicePowerful topic.
You know, I know that so manyof us go to work and sometimes
you don't realize what powersand abilities and capabilities
we have and we just don't knowwe can choose.
(00:44):
So I hope that you can sharethat with us today.
Naisha, how are you doing today?
Kneisha Sanders (00:49):
I am doing amazing and thank you so much
for having me and I'm excited tobe here to share on this topic.
Dr. Pelè (00:57):
Oh, I really appreciate that.
Now, Naisha, what I reallyreally appreciate about the way
I discovered you actually isyou're positioning as a catalyst
.
You're positioned as someonewho really gets people taking
action right.
You've covered everything fromexecutive coaching to even a
faith-based approach to employeeexperience and engagement.
(01:18):
I'd love to learn all aboutthat, but let's go ahead and
start from the beginning.
If you, Naisha, were todescribe the core challenge that
you deal with at organizations,what would that be?
Let's start from that.
Kneisha Sanders (01:30):
Yeah, I love that and I think that's a great
place to start when I thinkabout who I'm talking to.
Most frequently is the leadersin the organizations, whether at
the director, senior directorlevel, going up to C-suite or on
that pathway for C-suite.
And one of the things that Ifind is that there's this
(01:50):
obligation or sense that I haveto be a certain way.
I have to do it this waybecause of one the culture,
unspoken rules and the thingsthat has gotten them promoted.
It's like that's what I need todo if I want to continue
getting promoted.
And so it creates this sense ofobligation, this sense of I'm
(02:13):
going to do this for nowmentality, because ultimately,
my desired outcome is to beC-suite, so I'm going to just
play by the rules.
I'm going to play the game.
My incentive compensation isgreat, so I'll just keep on
collecting the bonus check.
But what happens is, when we'rein these conversations, what I
(02:35):
find is that they're overwhelmed, overworked and feel
ill-equipped to do the job thatthey're actually trying to do or
desiring to do.
And it's not because they'renot smart and it's not because
they don't feel as though theycan do it.
It really boils down to thissense of obligation they don't
want to, and it's if I couldchange or alter the position
(02:59):
this way, or if I could add moreinsight to how I did this job,
then I would be more excited orenergized by it.
But the truth of the matter isthey're not because of this
sense of obligation, and so Iwould say that the problem that
I helped solve is really helpingthem decide for themselves and
choose one, what type of leaderthey want to be, but then also
(03:21):
recognize the fact that there'sa multitude of ways to get there
.
And that just because one way isdefined you know this is the
pathway forth doesn't mean thatit has to be your particular
path forth.
Dr. Pelè (03:34):
And you still?
Kneisha Sanders (03:34):
get there, and so that is what I've been doing
a lot of work around over thepast couple of years.
Dr. Pelè (03:41):
Wow, you know.
First of all, I think that maybe one of the most important
topics in business period.
Let me back that statement up,because there's one word you
didn't use throughout the entirestatement you just made.
You didn't use the wordpolitics as an office politics,
yes.
But that's exactly what I'mthinking and feeling, because I
(04:02):
tell you, people are hiredbecause they're they're good at
something, they're they'reactually very talented or
skilled at something, and thenonce they show up, it's like
they got to learn how to playthis thing called office
politics.
Kneisha Sanders (04:16):
Exactly, that's exactly right yeah.
Dr. Pelè (04:19):
And so so I really appreciate that topic and I hope
you're going to share with ussome details about that.
But before we get there, youknow, I'm just wondering how did
you wake up and become Naisha,the catalyst of executive
coaching and diversity andinclusion in companies?
How did you?
What's your story?
Kneisha Sanders (04:37):
You know, I think it's probably through
personal experience.
You know, I I joined corporateAmerica first job out of
undergrad and I had to learn howto play those office politics
very early on and you know, Ifelt a lot along the way and
instead of you know and it tooka lot I will say this it took a
(04:59):
lot for me to not acceptfailures as I was the failure,
but to see failures as an event.
And so really a foundationaltruth early in my career was
failure is an event, not aperson, and that has really
allowed for me to perceivethings in different ways and new
(05:20):
life.
So, really, looking at myjourney and understanding, ok,
if I got a rejection or if I gotto know, or if I didn't figure
out, you know how to getmotivated to move forward, then
I knew that it was a matter of,it was a policy.
It was a moment for me, like itwas a moment of pause.
So really it says what wascreating the gap, what was
(05:42):
creating this sense of, I guess,underperforming or not being
able to overcome, and so itcreated a lot of anxiety, a lot
of burnout and, to be quitefrank, I was just tired of being
anxious and overwhelmed, and soI made a decision to no longer
(06:04):
do that and I had a uniqueopportunity in my corporate
career to move across a lot ofdifferent industries, a lot of
different leadership programs,and so I moved up really quickly
.
So I got a chance to see a lotin a very short amount of time,
and so that just informed who Iam.
And I wrote the book because Inoticed that what I had started
(06:29):
to think was just normal.
Other people were struggling,and they too were anxious, and
they too were feeling burnt outand hadn't yet overcome that.
And so my book was birthed, outof just the pure.
Let me document what I wentthrough, let me document how I
overcame it, and faith was a bigpart of that for me, and so I
(06:54):
wanted to share that, becausefaith isn't oftentimes
celebrated or accepted incorporate spaces, and so how do
you bring your faith to work tobe the tool to help you overcome
anxiety and overwhelm when it'snot necessarily accepted?
And so that was how the bookwas birthed.
(07:14):
It was truly out of study time,morning quotients, and I was
like, oh, I should probablypublish this.
And here we are, three yearslater, a published author.
Dr. Pelè (07:24):
Well, I am so happy that you published it and I'm
proud of you.
There's a saying that I keep onmy wall.
It says a leader is one whoknows the way, goes the way and
shows the way.
And when you take personalexperience, as you've done, and
you take it all the way toputting it in a format that
others can benefit from, mygoodness, bravo, thank you.
(07:46):
And, by the way, just to beclear for those who are watching
this or listening, the title ofNaisha's book is the Fruit of a
Spirit-led Leader, and we'llget into a little bit more
detail about the content of thatbook, but just wanted to make
sure that we place that way upfront there so everyone knows
(08:08):
what we're talking about.
Okay, so now we've talked aboutsort of what you consider the
challenge in organizations andyou've given us a sense of who
you are and how you got here.
Now, how do people listening gofrom?
Okay, I get it all right.
I agree, there's this thingcalled how do I lead, how do I
get through the maze of politicsand reality and business and
(08:31):
actually come out on top?
If you were to give, like yourtop three, pieces of advice for
how people can actuallydemonstrate they have a choice,
take the right choices and leadbetter.
What would that advice be?
Kneisha Sanders (08:46):
Yeah, I would say.
The first is definitely to getreal with yourself about the
place that you're in.
Don't sleep it under the rug,but really identify and
acknowledge that you arecurrently in that space of not
enjoying or feeling as thoughyou have an obligation to do the
(09:10):
work.
So that would be my number oneis acknowledge that you're in
that place.
The second thing I would say isunderstand what support you
actually need to make a decision.
And so in executive coaching,we really understand what's the
limiting beliefs and all of thethings that goes along with you
(09:33):
feeling as though you can't moveforward.
But I think that oftentimes welose sight that you don't always
need to go find an executivecoach to do that.
Sometimes it's our family,sometimes it's telling them what
we need them to stop doing.
You know what we need them todo more of.
Or maybe it's settingboundaries at work, but it's
truly sitting still long enoughto determine how would you make
(09:57):
the decision, what support wouldallow for you to actually
decide?
What you need to decide, mm-hmm.
Third, I would say, is Toaccept that you're worthy.
Let you have a passion, purposeand conviction for mm-hmm and so
you know that last part takessome work because it's
(10:17):
overcoming the identity crisisthat you are a posture syndrome
imposter syndrome it's it'sunderstanding the moments where
you lost confidence andRevaluating, you know, if you
misinterpreted those moments.
You know, oftentimes I thinkthat you see a failure and
you're like, oh, I'm a failure,I did it, I messed up, I could
(10:40):
have been better, I should havedone this, I should have done
that, and that might all be true, but had it worked, you
wouldn't have gone through allof that, and so take it as a
gift, as as insight.
Right now I have a way toevaluate what works for me, not
necessarily the system, notnecessarily other people, but me
(11:00):
specifically.
What works for me specifically.
And so I think that you knowgetting to that identity Plays,
you know understanding who youare as a leader, who you want to
be.
One of the things that I have alot of my clients do is think
about you know, no matter whereyou are in your career, but
let's just say you're stillactively in your your career.
Think about your retirementparty, and when you say, and
(11:24):
when other people stand in thefront of the room, what do you
want them to say about you?
What do you want them toremember you as like, who, who
you are?
And Oftentimes people don'twant to think about that, but at
the end of the day they're notgonna say you know you, you met
your revenue goal, you they'renot gonna say you know, we got
(11:46):
so much profit because of yourleadership.
They're gonna tell you how youmade them feel.
They're gonna tell you what itwas about you specifically that
made it a pleasure and enjoyableto work with.
And so you get to decide whatyou them.
You get to decide whatnarrative you want to to Share
(12:07):
so that you can allow them toperceive it however they choose.
So you can't you can't controlother people's perceptions, but
you can't control your narrative, and so the ultimate decision
is you deciding what is yournarrative, and then how do you
walk that out each and every dayin your job.
So that would be my three steps.
Dr. Pelè (12:28):
Now, that was a little masterclass.
I'm feeling like I got to putmy training hat on here and just
like play that back and learn.
That was powerful, and you knowsome of the things I really
appreciated the most there.
When you talk about an ultimatedecision, this takes us back to
your idea that we do have achoice.
We do have the ability tochoose a different path from
what we think we're being forcedinto.
(12:49):
That's really powerful and you,you talk about one of my
favorite topics.
I think it was Maya Angelo whosaid that people may forget what
you say or do, but they'llnever forget how you made them
feel.
Yes, so so.
So if you were able to choosehow you're gonna make people
feel almost as a Path forward,how powerful is that?
But you know, I want to bringthis back to the topic of faith,
(13:12):
because I know how importantthat is to you and how important
it is in your book and, in fact, for those who are listening in
and are not able to see thevideo right now.
Behind Naisha are threepowerful words love, joy and
peace.
So we've added to the story forus.
How does faith and love, joyand peace, how do those elements
(13:34):
actually come into play when itcomes to leadership and and
success in organizations?
Kneisha Sanders (13:40):
Yes.
So I would say you know,regardless of what your faith is
, is under the title or topic ofservant leadership.
How do you serve people first?
And how it was particularlycome into play for me is my
faith, is my code of conduct.
It is how I choose to walk out,my behavior, my way of being,
(14:05):
and so my particular way ofdoing that is through the fruit
of the spirit, which is love,joy, peace, patience, kindness,
goodness, faithfulness,gentleness and self control, and
through those nine things, Ithink of them as attributes, and
so in my mind, it's like okay,when I think about the moments
that I feel frustrated orangered in some sort of way.
(14:27):
We all have had those momentswhere you're working on a
project and your manager, youknow, changes the deliverable,
you know, or you have competingpriorities and you can't get
everything done, and it alwaysfeels like a moving target and
you're like why does the targetkeep moving?
I was working here and so we'veall been there, right, where
(14:48):
we've had competing prioritiesand just changing deliverables
or competing deliverables, andthat's frustrating, it's.
You know, you're, you're goingto have moments of anger, and
for me it's about okay.
In this moment, what am Igiving up?
Well, in that moment, I'mgiving up joy, I am giving up
this sense of, you know,pleasure in my work.
(15:10):
And so how do I go from thisidea of frustrated and angered
and just like I don't want to dothis, to reclaiming the joy of
doing it, and one of the waysthat I do that is just by
refocusing.
So it's like what am I focusingon?
Okay, well, if I'm frustrated,I am focusing on the, the, the
(15:33):
source right of frustration.
Right, either it's the manageror it's.
You know the project itself orit's.
You know all these unknowns,all these uncertainties, how I'm
going to miss the deadline, howI am now have to do extra work,
like when I'm frustrated.
I'm focused on me.
I'm focused on what is it is,you know, interrupting or
(15:59):
inconveniencing me and my day.
But if I refocus to think aboutit from the perspective of
service, I am thinking of it inthe fact of like okay, this is
frustrating, it keeps changing,but what is it that I need to
figure out?
Like, what is the problem thatI'm actually trying to solve?
What is it about what they justchange is impactful for what I'm
(16:22):
trying to do, and so it reallyis this exercise of refocusing,
and so that's one of the waysthat I use my faith as part of
my like, my leadership role incorporate or even as an
executive coach is don't be somoved by what you see right.
Be moved by what you believe in.
It is truly, if you have afoundational faith, you know, if
(16:44):
you have faith and that's abelief system use that, believe
in that, yeah, and lead in thatway so that, again, one you show
up authentically to you.
Don't compartmentalize yourlife where you're feeling like I
have to leave my faith at homeor in the backseat, when really
is is relevant to your day job,is a relevant to how you show up
(17:06):
, and so you know, once you getit on the inside of you, it's in
you and therefore, if you don'tshow up in that way, then
you're actually leaving a partof you behind.
And so, for me, I wear my faithon my sleeve because it's part
of who I am and it helps me getthrough those difficult and
challenging times when I'm inthe office.
Dr. Pelè (17:27):
You know, and good for you for embracing that.
I have to tell you that there'sa whole new world right now of
AI, for example, that allows youto do very interesting things.
For example, we could go on tochat GPT right now and we could
say, all right, tell me whatJesus Christ would do In this
(17:48):
situation I find myself in atwork, believe it or not.
It would take all of theteachings of Jesus Christ and it
would apply them to whateveryou say is going on at work and
it would give you arecommendation of what to do.
I mean, it is just powerful.
That is wow yeah and you know, Iknow because that's kind of the
field I mean, but in thesoftware field.
(18:09):
But the truth is that applyingfaith to business it's not a
nice to have.
For some people it is a musthave and it is a powerful,
powerful tool.
So thank you for sharing that.
If we were to just go one leveldeeper in this topic of your
books, or rather your book andhow you've applied faith to it
(18:33):
and things like that, tell us alittle bit about some of the
tools that you use.
I know that you are very muchinto assessments.
You have a strong partnershipwith different organizations to
do assessments to unearth what'sreally going on.
Tell us a little bit about yourfavorite tools for how you get
people on the right conversationabout how to fix things in
(18:54):
their leadership at work.
Kneisha Sanders (18:55):
Yeah, definitely.
So I would say the one tool,and again, maybe bias, but it's
everything.
Disc, that's a tool that I useto really get people present to
their preference, their naturalinclination, and I think
sometimes, again, we lose sightof what we naturally do.
(19:16):
And to appreciate what wenaturally do, because we see,
within whatever culture thatwe're in, whatever work culture
that we're in, what getscelebrated, what gets promoted,
and so we try to adapt ourselvesto that particular way of being
, when in reality we lose sightof what was special about who we
(19:36):
already are.
And so how does what we bring tothe table is valuable?
Now, there are times when it'sgoing to be more effective or
efficient for you to be one wayversus another like to be direct
.
We'll use an actual term.
So there's times when you needto be direct right, when if
(19:58):
you're passive and soft-spoken,it may not work, but there are
very.
There's just as many times thatit is efficient for you to be,
or effective for you to be,soft-spoken and thoughtful or
quiet, and so it's reallyhelping people really decide one
(20:18):
is it okay for me to be me?
And then how is it effective inthe culture that I'm in?
And then I think that's theother decision is is this a
place that I want to stay in?
Now, I'm not saying not to beflexible, I'm not saying not to
meet people where they are,because we're all capable of
that, but it's also about goingback to that identity crisis we
(20:41):
were talking about earlier ofhow do you appreciate who you
naturally are, and so that is atool that I use to really get
people present to that idea ofhere's what I naturally do,
here's my preferences, and thenfrom there it's really about
conversation.
It's really about how do youtake these insights and then
(21:04):
apply them.
So I'm really big on appliedknowledge and so, Drew, my
coaching.
I have a coaching process thatreally helped people discover,
you know, the specifics around.
What is it that is creatingthis outcome in my life?
Right, what I'm seeing, becausethe reality is, is what you see
is formulated from a belief youhad a thought you had that you
(21:26):
keep allowing to show up, and soit's really important for you
to get clear about your thinkingso that you can see something
different in the atmosphere.
And so I'm not going to preachso not like I was getting too
preachy, but really I mean,that's really what it boils down
to.
And so, you know, that's a toolthat I actively use.
(21:48):
I also, you know, as part ofcoaching.
I think coaching is reallyeffective.
Some people would say thatcoaching is not a tool, but in
my mind it is.
It's a mindset, it is a way ofdoing a thing, and so that would
be my second power tool iscoaching asking powerful,
thought-provoking questions andgiving people space to sit in
(22:10):
them, you know, and lean in thequestion, sit in the question
and give them an opportunity totake action, you know, challenge
them on.
What is it that you are goingto do to change the outcome to
be more enjoyable?
And not just because you wantto be happy, but because you
want to feel good about the workthat you do.
(22:31):
You want to add value you wantto, you know, operate in purpose
.
All of those things arefulfilling.
So really it's not just aboutbeing happy, it's really about
being fulfilled, and so that ishopefully that answers your
question, but that's how I,that's how it's coming for me
Coming up.
Dr. Pelè (22:49):
No, no, you're absolutely correct, and I think
there's there's a word you useda few times and that is outcomes
.
Right, and you know what arethe outcomes.
How are you feeling them inyour heart, your body, your mind
?
And, yes, you're right, it'snot about the sort of hedonic
happiness, the kind of happinessthat's about pleasure.
Hey, I feel good today.
It's not always about that, butit is about eudaimonic happiness
(23:11):
, which is the kind of happinessthat's about engagement, like
am I engaged in the work I do?
Do I?
Does time fly when I do thiswork?
Do I have flow?
Am I, am I really connected tothe mission and the purpose of
this organization?
And if I'm not, then I'm noteudaimonically happy and so and
so, when we so.
Thank you for bringing that up.
(23:32):
I love to help, to help peopleunderstand that profitable
happiness is not just about, youknow, the rah-rah type of
feeling.
It's really about theengagement that we feel as
employees and the employeeexperience being something we
want to continue to have.
Which brings us to our topic,right.
Like how do you connectProfitable happiness, the kind
(23:54):
of engagement happiness, withthe work you do?
What are the sort ofintersections between a
faith-based or a spirit-ledleadership and helping employees
be happy with the work they'redoing.
Kneisha Sanders (24:08):
Yeah, you know, I think the first thing that
comes to my mind is going backto something I mentioned earlier
of this idea of feeling worthy,and when I think about
profitable happiness, I think itgoes back to that idea of
passion, purpose, and I thinkthis is on your website passion,
purpose and conviction and Ithink that that is the
connection is when you decidethat you want to serve other
(24:31):
people or you decide that you'regoing to do the things that are
fulfilling, and oftentimes whatwe find is fulfillment comes
from helping other people,serving other people, from
knowing that you're doing goodin the world and that you've
done something that mattered.
That's when you have this senseof fulfillment.
And so how I connect the workis really you know, you don't
(24:54):
step, you can't just go to workand say you know, I think that
I'm going to be a finance persontoday.
You went to school, youprobably had a degree, you got
some certifications.
It was a process, it was ajourney to get there, and so
when I think about this leading,being spirit-led or
(25:15):
incorporating your faith or anyof the things we've talked about
so far, it's aboutunderstanding the journey.
It's about understanding whereyou, what started the journey.
Was it a desire for passion?
Was it a desire of you know,walking in purpose?
Was it a flat-out conviction orrevelation that you knew I just
(25:35):
have to do it this way now, andI think that when you do that,
then the outcome or the outputof that is the profitable
happiness, because now you'rewalking in it, you're applying
that knowledge that, oh no, thisis what it looks like for me.
This is what it feels like forme to operate in purpose.
(25:55):
This is what it feels like forme to have the courage to step
out on a conviction.
And I'll give an example reallyquickly.
A couple years ago, I felt astrong desire that it was time
for me to walk away from mycorporate job and do my business
full-time.
That wasn't, you know, justlike oh, let me wake up and
(26:17):
decide that one day.
It was truly a moment ofrevelation that it was time and
so for me to say that I'm, youknow, doing this full-time.
It was because I had a momentthat was like this is it.
This is now, and as a result ofthat, I feel fulfilled, right,
doing that work.
(26:37):
And there's a lot of decisions,other decisions that came along
with making that one, you knowprimary one but I think that's
the connection is that theprofitable happiness is the
outcome and the work that I dois really about the journey.
Dr. Pelè (26:52):
Yeah, no, powerful.
I appreciate that because a lotof people really do get stuck
in sort of a feeling at workwhere they have no choices, they
aren't happy with their workand they really don't know how
to change anything and they justsort of give up and go along
with the program.
And I think you empower peopleto connect the dots between your
(27:19):
work and your profitablehappiness, because if that
connection isn't there, you'lljust, you know, feel like you
have no direction, no purpose,right, as you said.
Kneisha Sanders (27:29):
Exactly, I love that.
Dr. Pelè (27:32):
What are you working on right now?
What are you excited about?
I mean, obviously you want toshare your book and I want to
make sure people know how to getthe fruit of a spirit led
leader.
But what?
What projects are you excitedabout now and how can people get
a hold of you to connect withthose projects?
Kneisha Sanders (27:49):
Yeah, I love that.
So yes, for me right now it'sreally about you know giving
people options of how they canlead.
You know, I think you know inmy career it was one way was you
know the command and controland the world is moving to.
You know, be more coach likeand trying to embrace that.
(28:11):
But I think it's criticallyimportant in a time that we're
in right now to know that that'snot just one that's, it's not
the one way to be.
And I think that for some of thepeople who are like, how do I
bring my faith to work?
How do I, you know, be all ofme at work without feeling like
I'm going to offend other peoplearound me?
(28:31):
I want to give them anotheroption, and so that's where the
book comes from.
Is is that's the heart of thebook and why I want to get that
to the marketplace that,although it's talking about
faith, it is for you and yourcorporate job, if you really
want to incorporate who you arespiritually and not feel like
(28:51):
you have to offend others.
And so that is always going tobe a consistent passion and joy
for me to do.
And then the other thing thatI'm working on is just really I
have a couple programs andframeworks.
That is really about, you know,navigating the employee
experience.
How do you and actually theframework is called you decide
framework, and it's all abouthow do you navigate your career,
(29:14):
how do you choose for yourselfwhat it is that you want to do
and not have to fall into theoffice politics.
And I just love coaching and soI do a lot of one on one group
coaching and facilitation,leadership development, training
.
So, yeah, like you mentionedearlier, dr Pallee, I love to do
it all.
(29:37):
That is awesome and where can?
Dr. Pelè (29:39):
people and where can people find you?
We obviously connected onLinkedIn, but do you have other
places that people should golook for you and your book?
Kneisha Sanders (29:47):
Yes, so either LinkedIn or you can just go to
my website, wwwnaisha sanderscom, and that is my first and last
name.
Dr. Pelè (29:59):
Okay, all right, I will make sure to have both the
LinkedIn and your websiteinformation below.
But, naisha, I just want to saythank you so much for being a
guest on the ProfitableHappiness Podcast.
Kneisha Sanders (30:10):
Yes, thanks so much for having me.
Dr. Pelè (30:13):
Awesome.
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