September 5, 2023 • 48 mins
Imagine a world where your EMPLOYEE HAPPINESS directly links to PRODUCTIVITY at work.
Sounds like a dream, doesn't it?
Well, our guest, the thought-provoking Dr. Pelè, a best-selling author, musician, and software architect, makes a compelling case for this dream to be a reality.
In an episode host reversal, Dr. Rick Garlick had the opportunity to sit down with Dr. Pelè, our regular host, to discuss Dr. Pelè's journey from a war-torn country to becoming an influential thought leader.
Dr. Pelè's unique insights about how focusing on employee happiness leads to increased business performance is something you'll definitely want to hear!
To learn more about Dr. Pelè online, visit:
Speaking: https://drpele.com
Book: https://amzn.to/3HGSsy3
Software: https://profitablehappiness.com
LinkedIn: https://linkedin.com/in/drpele
YouTube: https://youtube.com/drpeleraymond
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Dr. Pelè (00:00):
Hello happy people.
Welcome to the ProfitableHappiness Podcast.
Dr. Rick Garlick (00:06):
Welcome everyone to the Profitable
Happiness Podcast.
This time it's going to be alittle different.
If you're a regular listener ofa Dr Pillay's podcast, you know
that typically he is theinterviewer, and people like
myself have been privileged tobe guests on his podcast.
Well, this time the tables areturned.
(00:27):
He is going to be the guest.
He's the thought leader thistime that you're going to be
getting a wisdom and insightfrom, and I'm going to take my
turn as the hopefully insightfulinterviewer.
So I'd like to introducesomeone again, if you've
listened to his podcast, thatyou know well, but maybe you
don't know him as well as youthink.
(00:48):
Dr Pillay, my good friend, is aneducator, a musician, a
software architect and thebest-selling author of a new
book that's just come out that Ihighly recommend everyone, call
Profitable Happiness the fivekey habits of a high performance
organization, and we'll betalking a lot about that book
today.
But Dr Pillay, he's a man witha mission.
(01:11):
He seeks to change the worldthrough books, software training
and music, by helpingorganizations build high
cultures of high employeeengagement and business
performance.
So, without further ado, drPillay, I've given the tea up,
but there's a lot of things thatpeople don't know about you.
Tell us a little bit about yourbackground and how you got to
(01:36):
this particular point in yourcareer.
Dr. Pelè (01:39):
Oh my goodness, dr Rick, first of all, before I go
into answering your question, Iwould like to say thank you, dr
Rick Garlich, for being here,for doing this.
It is not only a pleasure, itis an honor to be on this side
while you, with your researchbackground and experience, we
get to talk about some of theseimportant topics.
(02:01):
So thank you for being here.
So to answer your question howdid I get here?
What's my background?
Oh my goodness, it's reallyinteresting how we find
ourselves, in the places that wefind ourselves, and when you
look back on where you've come,you're like oh my goodness,
that's quite a journey.
I came from a place where Idiscovered at a very young age
(02:23):
the importance of one word, andthat word is happiness.
Now, in a world where you go towork and you have leaders who
are focused on businessproductivity and profit,
sometimes, unfortunately, at theexpense of employee happiness,
you really find that this ismaybe an epidemic or worse right
, this is something that is areal challenge for organizations
(02:47):
, and so I learned at a veryyoung age that happiness comes
first before success.
If you think of finding successfirst and all the physical
things that you can achieve fromsuccess before your happiness.
You'll wake up one day on thewrong mountain and everything
will just be wrong.
So what happened to me is thatat a very young age, I was in a
(03:11):
war zone.
I was born into an existingcivil war in Nigeria, west
Africa and, as you can imagine,bombs are falling, guns
everywhere, people are dying.
People like myself and mymother are parts of.
You know.
We're part of a refugee campand we're running from place to
place and you know the funnything is, when you're worrying
(03:34):
about dying and you're worryingabout food and how you're going
to survive and beat the hunger,it's very difficult to be happy.
And yet we had nothing, and mymother did the most amazing
thing in order to save our lives.
Instead of giving me food whichshe couldn't or shelter, she
(03:55):
simply sang to me.
She would sing songs to me,songs, music.
She brought music into my lifeat this very young age and you
know what that music did.
It completely distracted mefrom the fear of dying and from
the pain of hunger, and it mademe happy.
And that is when I learned thathappiness can come before
(04:16):
success.
It can come before every otherthing.
If first you find yourhappiness, everything else will
follow, and it's the same fororganizations.
If leaders can understand thattheir employees just want to be
happy at work, they want toexperience high engagement, they
want to be connected and havemeaning in the things that
(04:37):
they're doing, if that becomes acore focus for leaders to
encourage, to encourageeverything else will follow.
So that's how I got here.
Believe it or not, it allstarted from a civil war.
Dr. Rick Garlick (04:48):
Well, my friend, we could probably do an
entire podcast just talkingabout your interesting backstory
.
I mean, I think that's got tobe one of the more interesting
backstories and what you bringfrom simply your life
experiences and yourunderstanding of the world.
I think that, right off the bat, makes you very uniquely
qualified to talk on thissubject to happiness.
(05:10):
But I know also we've talkedand we've gotten to know one
another.
I also know that you've got aPhD in organizational behavior
and you've worked in humanresources.
Tell our audience a little bitabout that background.
So you came over here and thenyou moved through the
educational system and you foundyour path toward helping engage
(05:31):
people in their workplaces.
Dr. Pelè (05:34):
Oh, wow, that's a great question because I
actually had to make a jump offaith somehow from just
happiness to music to, somehow,human resources and software.
It's like, how did you do allthat?
Well, actually it actuallyturns out to be very simple.
I learned somewhere that thereare two kinds of happiness.
(05:56):
There's one kind of happinessthat is simply about seeking
pleasure.
Ra-ra, how you do it, I'mfeeling good.
We got ping pong tables in thefoyer.
That's one kind of happiness.
We call that hedonic happiness.
But there's also another kindof happiness that involves high
engagement, high sense ofpurpose and meaning.
(06:17):
It's the kind of happiness youfeel when you forget time is
going by and you're so focused,so in tune with what you're
doing, the work that you'recreating.
And I found that that kind ofhappiness was why I loved to do
music, because music is allabout that total engagement.
I love to be creative, to writebooks and to do all these
(06:38):
things because I loved thehappiness that comes with being
highly engaged in something.
And so to find a career and apath in this world.
Of course I went through all thecreativity things.
I was trying to be an architect, I became a musician.
I decided you know what I needto get my PhD?
Because, guess what?
My dad had one and my mom hadone.
(06:59):
I was like, okay, you got to godo this.
But I discovered that I lovededucation so much and so I went
and got my PhD and the naturalthing was to study people and
organizations for me.
And so from there, of course, Iwent on and I've been a vice
president of human resources ata health care organization, at
(07:21):
Dale Carnegie training.
I was a vice president ofproduct and marketing and I've
done many things that showed mewhat the corporate world looked
like, especially big companieslike EDS I was director of
marketing there and PTC and abunch of other places.
And I learned that there's onecommon theme Organizations need
(07:41):
help focusing on the happinessof their people, and not just
the hedonic happiness, but theeudaimonic happiness, which is
the one that is more aboutmeaning.
And, of course, instead ofcalling things eudaimonic, which
sounds kind of weird, I came upwith this moniker called
profitable happiness, whichagain describes that kind of
happiness that is all aboutemployee satisfaction,
(08:04):
engagement, that is about focusand just really helping
employees find a sense ofmeaning and purpose in what
they're doing.
That's how you get highproductivity is when everybody
is rowing in the same direction,highly engaged and happy.
Dr. Rick Garlick (08:20):
Well, first of all, let me just say just
listen to your story.
You are truly what I woulddescribe as a Renaissance man,
right?
And I also want to say thatanybody who hires you to come in
and consult or advise theircompany on workforce issues is
not going to get the same boringvanilla consultant.
They're going to get a veryunique perspective at all your
(08:42):
life experiences and, to me, allof that background you bring
adds such a dimension to anyconsulting work you would do.
So, having said that, let metake your idea and build on it a
little bit.
So I think what you said isreally, really an important
distinction, because someonecould hear this notion about
(09:03):
being happy at work, and we'vestudied organizations for many,
many years, you and I, and weknow that there are certain
organizations out there who haveindividuals who are making
large salaries and have a verylight workload and they're
probably pretty happy, right,but they're not necessarily very
productive.
Another saying that a friend ofmine often says well, it's
(09:25):
called work for a reason.
If it was fun, it would becalled fun.
It's called work because it'swork.
So I think what you did is youmade a very important
distinction for our listenersthat we're not talking about
just making people feel goodwithout that productivity
component to the overall picture.
But let me take you to one ofthe most popular adages I've
(09:51):
heard all throughout my careersince the 90s, and that really
comes through the service profitchain model that a lot of
people are familiar with, and Ihave heard so many people say
this line and I don't alwaysknow how I feel about it.
I like to hear how you feelabout it.
But happy employees mean happycustomers.
(10:12):
Is that what you're saying?
Dr. Pelè (10:16):
Actually, that is precisely what I'm saying, you
know.
Think about this.
You have companies on the oneside and you have the people who
drive the productivity of anytype on one side, and that is
the employees.
You got the leaders.
You got the employees.
I'm going to tell you a smallstory, a very short story.
(10:37):
It's a fable.
Once upon a time there was afarmer who had a golden goose
that was delivering golden eggs.
He was so enamored with thesegolden eggs and so happy and so
fulfilled and he was justcompletely getting rich off of
these golden eggs that one dayhe got greedy.
He decided to get more eggs ata faster, you know better,
(11:02):
cheaper, all of that stuff.
You wanted to get more eggs.
Now he decided the best thingto do is to kill the golden
goose, open it up and get allthe eggs that were inside.
Well, you know the story right.
Unfortunately, the goose diedand the eggs stopped.
Believe it or not, I have foundthis little analogy I've shared
(11:23):
with you to be the centralproblem with organizations.
Our leaders are too focused,too focused on output, right
versus the input.
They're more focused on thebusiness, profitability and
success than they are on thewell-being and happiness of
their employees.
In fact, Gallup did someresearch and found that 85% of
(11:47):
employees believe that theirleaders don't care about their
well-being as much as they careabout the success of the
business, if you will, theorganization, and so it's really
backward, and so my mission hasbeen to help people understand
this link between.
It seems so normal, it seemslike we should know this right,
(12:08):
but people in action, in dailywork life, don't always focus on
this the simple link betweenhappy employees and productivity
.
It's self-evident.
When I feel happy with the workI'm doing, when I feel proud of
the work I'm doing, when I feelengaged in the work I'm doing,
(12:29):
my work is better.
My work is fueled by passionand commitment and
accountability.
When those things are lacking,I just want to leave on Friday.
I just want to go back and saythank God, it's Friday, I'm out
of here.
You want employees that justwant to be at work, because what
they do matters that much tothem, and that's why happy
(12:49):
employees produce profitableorganizations.
You got to make the link.
Dr. Rick Garlick (12:54):
Well, I was going to say that, given the
state of customer satisfactionthese days, there are probably a
lot of really unhappy people atwork because we've never seen
in the last 20 years, accordingto the American Customer
Satisfaction Index, we've neverseen such low customer
satisfaction scores.
It seems like now the focus ison attracting and retaining
(13:18):
employees, but it doesn't seemlike people are necessarily
focused on the kinds of thingsthat you're talking about as a
means to attract and retaintalent.
Everybody's saying, well, wejust need to pay people more.
But we can't afford to do thatand I think, in your opinion, it
would be a lot more than justwhat someone gets paid?
Dr. Pelè (13:38):
Oh, absolutely.
In fact, I did a very funlittle exercise because you will
probably talk about this, butI'm big into the impact of AI on
human resources, and I went toa bunch of my AI links online
and I asked a simple question.
I said what are the top fiveemployee challenges that
(13:58):
companies are experiencing andare willing to pay money to
solve?
Of all the different thingsemployees could be dealing with,
what are these things?
Every single tool I looked atand, by the way, ai is good
because it actually does have alarge language model of all the
data that's in the world, and soit's a valid thing.
Regardless of how you feelabout AI, it can give you data
(14:20):
fast, much better than going toGoogle or a website.
So I went to Bard, I went toOpenAI, I went to different ones
, and the answer was very, verytelling.
Pay was not on the list, noteven close.
At the very top of that listwas employee engagement, next
was employee retention and afterthat was employee recruitment.
(14:44):
These are the top real problemsthat our organizations are
facing.
Of course, productivity,wellness and so on are down
there, but not even anywherenear that was the issue of
employees not being paid enough.
Pay was not the main problemthat employees were having.
And so I used to say when I wasa vice president of human
(15:05):
resources, to help everyone inmy little organization
understand what our mission was,I used to say that our job is
to find, keep and grow greatemployees.
We got to find them, that's arecruitment problem.
We got to keep them, that's anengagement problem.
We got to grow them right, thatis a retention problem and an
engagement problem, and so onand so forth.
(15:26):
So I really think that pay isjust not that important really
in the big picture.
If you hire me at a nice salary, I'll be excited for a few
weeks, but happiness is suchthat we always plateau and look
for the next level, and so thatmoney is soon going to be
something that's not asimportant to me as really just
(15:48):
being happy every day when Ishow up.
So I think that anybody whothinks throwing money at people
is a solution is missing a bigopportunity.
Dr. Rick Garlick (15:57):
All right, so let me ask you what I believe to
be a very, very criticalquestion.
Again, it's something you and Ihave talked about in our
personal discussions.
So since the 90s, you hadmentioned Gallup, and I had the
privilege to work at Gallup inthe 90s and was there at the
time that they developed a lotof the tools and products and
(16:20):
theories and ideas that havereally changed how people think
about employee engagement.
For one, the term was reallyevolved from employee
satisfaction now to employeeengagement.
But despite all those decades ofprobably millions of dollars
being spent on surveys, not tomention incentives, rewards,
(16:43):
training, everything possible totry to make that connection
Like, well, if I can increaseemployee engagement, I can
increase productivity andsatisfaction on the part of
customers all these things andin spite of all that effort, the
needle has really not moved andit feels like millions of
(17:05):
dollars been spent.
I mean, you might see it go upa little bit, then down, but I
think as we look at the 20 or30-year trend charts, it never
really moved more than 6percentage points either way in
terms of the percentage ofpeople who consider themselves
really engaged to work.
So you've come along and you'vegot the answer to that You've
(17:27):
got the solution that all thesepeople have been spending all
this money on all these otherproducts and solutions.
They need to talk to you why.
Dr. Pelè (17:38):
Who knew right.
Well, thank you for that setup,because you're right, and I
think that number is about 70%disengaged or worse at work for
the past 30 years, and it hasnot changed much, as you said,
as you described.
And the question is why is itthat we haven't found a way to
(17:59):
make a connection between whatemployees want and what
companies want?
If you go back to my littleanalogy of the golden goose and
the golden eggs, that's reallythe problem.
Employees want something, butdo we have the empathy to step
into their shoes and give themthat thing, that happiness let's
call it eudaimonic orprofitable happiness for now.
(18:22):
If we give them that, how do wesomehow get high performance?
So let me tell you how you dothat.
This is the thing that no onethat I'm aware of and I've done
a lot of research is exploringas much as I believe I'm hoping
to explore, and that is thisHuman beings have a magic
(18:43):
superpower.
We have a magic superpower.
We have the ability to, if youwill, put things on autopilot,
should we choose to.
That superpower is calledhabits.
If you want to play a musicalinstrument and you are a
musician, just as I am, becauseand I know you shared this with
me back in the day.
(19:05):
You did quite some fun musicalthings, so you understand this.
Anyone who's ever tried tolearn a musical instrument will
understand this.
It takes practice and when youpractice something, you build
muscle memory in the brain and,before you know it, what you
couldn't do yesterday, all of asudden you become able to do it.
Your fingers have adoptedsomething.
(19:26):
What is that?
That's the superpower of habits, and it works not only for
playing an instrument or forplaying sports, but also with
human behavior andorganizational behavior, or even
organizational culture.
If you repeat things enoughtimes over time, you'll build
some neural networks andconnections in what we call
Myelin, which will create habits, stronger pathways for those
(19:51):
things you're trying to rememberand do.
Before you know it, it becomesautomatic and you're putting
things on automatic.
If you can put your engagementfor employees on autopilot, if
you can put the happiness ofyour employees on autopilot by
helping them repeat certainthings and focusing on certain
(20:11):
things over and over again, oneday the habits will take over
and your organization will soarinto high performance
automatically.
I'll give you one quick analogymy children.
I have three my daughters andmy son.
All of them, I was privilegedto teach them all how to ride a
bicycle at the age of six yearsold.
(20:33):
For each of them, the samepattern happened each time.
I would teach my child, I wouldput them on the bike and we
would do this day in, day outand in summer, usually every
single day for weeks, and theywould keep on falling off.
We had training legs,everything.
It was terrible.
None of my kids would learn.
(20:55):
I would be like, hey, let'sjust do it again.
Like, okay, dad, and we wouldstruggle.
Then one day for each of them.
I had no prediction of whenthat day happened, but one day
for each of them.
I let them go and they wereriding a bicycle and they didn't
need the training wheels andthey never, ever, went back.
What happened that day?
Let me tell you what happenedthat day.
(21:17):
The information and thecoordination required to ride a
bicycle came from theirconscious mind and went down
into the subconscious mind.
That architecture of the brainis the superpower called habits.
What we need to do is to tapinto human habits and build
habits in organizations, habitsof happiness and engagement in
(21:40):
high performance.
That's been the missing link.
Dr. Rick Garlick (21:43):
Let me ask this question.
We know that there have beenbooks written on habits of
highly effective people.
This notion of habits issomething that has been explored
before, but you connect habitsto happiness.
Maybe talk a little bit aboutthe neuroscience work even
beyond habit formation,understanding that the emotional
(22:06):
part of the brain is really thepart of the brain that drives
behavior.
Help me understand how you linkhabits to happiness.
Dr. Pelè (22:17):
Okay, I'll give you one very basic rule about how
the brain works.
The brain is the most powerfulthing.
In fact, there's more todiscover in our minds right here
than I think, even in outerspace.
That's how much power we have.
The inner space is so much moreand we could do so much more by
learning what's going on here.
(22:39):
The mind is so powerful, but itis also blind.
Here's what I mean by that.
The mind doesn't care whatinputs are coming in, it will
just accept it.
If you repeat that input enoughtimes, you create that muscle
memory that you're looking for.
Again, the mind is blind.
(23:01):
It doesn't care if you'refocusing on being a great cook
or a bank robber.
If you do it enough times,you'll get very good at it,
whether it's a good thing or abad thing good habit or a bad
habit when people understand thebasic principle that the mind
is really a machine that we canmanipulate through things like
(23:23):
repetition and practice, that'swhen you turn that engine on.
Basically, the answer to thatquestion is happiness is a
muscle, just like buildingmuscles at the gym.
It actually is a tangible thingthat gets better with
repetition, gets stronger.
(23:45):
It's a choice that gets easierto make if you practice the
things associated with happiness.
That's the key.
The difference between a booklike the Seven Habits of High
Effective People the things I'mtalking about in profitable
happiness, the five habits ofhigh-performing organizations is
(24:06):
the neuroscience.
Stephen Covey, a wonderfulteacher, was talking at a level
of principles.
Now I'm talking at a level ofbiology.
This stuff actually works.
When you go into the mind, look, there are pictures.
Now we can do videos to seewhere the mind lights up when
(24:30):
you're happy.
It's a tangible thing that wenow have data for when you see
where the mind is lighting up.
If you light up that sectionover and over again and build a
habit of doing that, it becomeseasier to do.
Dr. Rick Garlick (24:45):
Let's unpack this a little bit more.
It seems like there's more tohappiness than what we might
typically think of just having agood feeling, the endorphins in
our brain going off, but itseems like there's some pillars
that are really important toyour work.
It seems like among them arethings like the degree to which
I can master or feel good aboutthe work I do.
(25:07):
That that's something thatfuels happiness.
Talk about the five pillarsthat you've identified as being
core to the definition of thistype no-transcript You're
identifying.
Dr. Pelè (25:22):
Absolutely.
And you know I have a niceMenomic that I think a little
abbreviation that I use toremember it and please don't
laugh it's H a P, p?
Y.
There you go so.
So, of course, as we know, withwith any of these abbreviations
(25:43):
, it's really just a strategyfor communication and
memorization.
It we're not being tried at all.
I have done a lot of literaturereviews and research to Come up
with a set of five pillars thatare in the book that described
the, the elements that we needreally to build cultures of high
performance, that are aboutemployee Well-being and so on.
(26:05):
So what are they?
Number one is happiness.
We've talked a lot about thekind of happiness you don't mind
, a happiness that powersengagement and that helps people
just want to be at work and doeven more than than they're
asked to do.
The next thing is Appreciation.
Now, a lot of the research.
Research shows that.
A very simple thing, like whena manager shows Consistent
(26:27):
appreciation to an employee thatbuilds a sense of belonging and
well-being and happiness thatallows that employee to want to
go above and beyond.
Just a simple managerappreciation that is consistent
the.
The third element, ha is p.
That the first P we call pride.
(26:48):
Now, although pride has notbeen researched as much as
Happiness and engagement and exp, employee experience and other
things like that, it actually issurprisingly as powerful as
anything you can imagine formotivating people to do More and
to do what they really believein.
It turns out from the researchthat when people feel Pride in
(27:11):
their work, pride in their teamand pride in their organization,
there are actually three levels.
A lot of people talk about justthe two levels, but there's
actually a pride of just you andyour nuclear team.
When people feel pride in thesethings, they actually want to
do more and go to the next level.
So that's HAP, the, the.
The fourth P is calledparticipation.
(27:33):
Now, a lot of people wouldrefer to this as the employee
experience, but the interestingthing is that when you have a
top-down Mandating of anexperience, it's not as
effective as when you haveemployees participating Creating
, designing and implementingthat experience, and that's a
missing link and a challenge, anopportunity actually right
(27:54):
there, and so employeeParticipation turns out to be
one of the best ways to createthat positive employee
experience that all the researchshows builds Organizational
success.
You know, one of my bestexamples, personal to me, is
Facebook.
Now, I'm not advocating thatanybody become a Facebook fan or
(28:16):
or not a Facebook fan.
I'm just saying that Facebookturns out to be a great example
of employee experience in termsof employee participation.
I went to one of their officesin California and I was in a
tour and they taught us in thattour that everything, every
single thing we're seeing hereWas designed by employees.
(28:36):
You would see, you know bigsigns that says that say things
like hacker, because weemployees, we're all hackers
here.
That's our culture.
You would see a big wall whereemployees would write their
dreams and hopes and everybodywould participate in creating
this.
This experience, and soemployee participation is is
really important for buildingthat experience that creates
(28:59):
high performance.
And then the last one is what Icall yardsticks, meaning just
measuring.
Now, it's important to measureengagement, as we've discussed
earlier, but there may be otherfields of thought and and things
that cultures you want to build, that you can add.
So I just look at that as let'sjust measure, because, as as
Peter Drucker says says, youknow, what you measure is what,
(29:22):
what improves.
I like to say what you measureis what becomes a habit, and
it's a habit that is thesuperpower of success.
Dr. Rick Garlick (29:30):
Well, I think you know that's a great lead
into.
The next thing I wanted to askyou about is I know that you
created a software tool that ifan organization were to engage
you to come in that.
A big part, a big aspect of thesolution that you bring is a
particular software tool thatyou yourself have developed, and
(29:54):
we won't take the time todemonstrate the tool.
People can do that by Callingyour contact to you and I know
you're happy to demonstrate it.
But tell a little bit about thesoftware tool and why it's
unique from other survey toolsor platforms that people might
purchase or have purchased.
Dr. Pelè (30:13):
Yeah, absolutely.
Thank you for that question andI'm gonna actually start by
showing you something.
See this book Probably can'tsee it very well, but it's
called profitable happiness thefive key habits of a high
performing, or high performanceorganization.
This book is really thebusiness card for the software.
(30:34):
It explains the background andgives people a sense of slowly
but surely understanding as youcan see in this diagram that
when all their people Are rowingin the same direction, highly
engaged and happy, that's howyou create high performance.
So now the question is well,how do we go from the book to
the software, and what is thesoftware all about?
(30:56):
So I've talked about the modelHAPPY.
The five elements that togetherhave to Are have been shown by
research to create moreprofitable cultures, more highly
engaged cultures.
Now the question is how do youoperationalize that?
One of the best ways to do that, believe it or not, is Software
(31:17):
.
You know, training is great,workshops are great,
motivational speeches are great,but what happens when you're
done With the training?
What software does is it allowsus to reinforce and extend the
implementation of whatever we'retrying to build.
There's this thing called theforgetting curve when we learn
(31:38):
something.
There's something called thelearning curve.
When we go way up, we'reexcited, we're learning,
everything's great.
Then Monday morning at 9 AM,after the training is over, it
begins the forgetting curve,where we begin to naturally
forget everything.
And this is research driven.
If you want to maintain andtransfer the learning of
anything, you have to do spacedreinforcement of things over
(32:02):
time, and that's how you combatthe forgetting curve.
Think of profitable happinesssoftware as something that
builds culture and organizationsby continuing to reinforce the
culture that we know willproduce high performance, which
has again the elements of happyemployees, appreciated employees
(32:24):
by their managers, pride in thework they do, high employee
participation to create anemployee experience.
And then yardsticks measuringengagement, measuring all the
different elements of the kindof culture that we want.
That's what the software does.
It helps people focus on theright things that build the
culture, build habits throughrepetition and, by the way, the
(32:46):
habits are built by simplygetting questions.
It's like a pulse survey.
You get asked the samequestions over and over.
You can't help but focus onthose things and, as we know,
whatever you focus on will grow.
The repetition of thosequestions creates the habits
that we're looking for for aculture.
(33:07):
The third thing the softwaredoes is by all this interaction
over a community of practice, ifyou will to build a certain
type of culture.
You get a whole bunch of data.
You can now go in and say, hey,how happy are my employees.
Imagine answering that question.
Then, when you answer it lastweek and they answer it this
week and you see a delta, maybeyou got to do something about
(33:28):
that.
Now you've got data about everysingle element that builds
profitable organizations.
With this data, there's one moremissing link, and this is why I
love AI so much.
Now you can ask the system foradvice.
Sure, you could go out and hireMarshall Goldsmith, who I'm
grateful he actually reviewedone of my books.
(33:49):
I'm not trying to say don'tcall Marshall, but I'm saying
you can hire Marshall Goldsmithfor $100,000.
Come talk to you for one hour.
Or you could ask our systemProfitable Happiness.
Ask the AI.
Given the data that we havethat has been captured by our
system here, how do we improveour employee engagement?
(34:11):
How do we improve pride in thisorganization?
How do we improve theperformance of this organization
so sales can go up instead ofdown, and instantly?
Because of the large languagemodel of AI, you'll get answers
based on whatever questionsyou're asking.
Dr. Rick Garlick (34:27):
Well, one of the things let me just take a
step back and say that, one ofthe things right off the bat
that, as you talk, distinguisheswhat you're offering from other
, say, survey tools is that,rather than having a point in
time survey, like once a year,once every six months, or even a
(34:48):
pulse survey that you mightgive once a month, your survey
and your tool is really anongoing exchange, ongoing
dialogue between theorganization and its employees.
Fair to say, that is preciselycorrect, and so it always keeps
people engaged in the process.
Because I think what happenswith these tools and again, I've
(35:12):
done many of these studies inmy career and what happens is we
typically will come up withseveral really good action steps
from the data.
And it's kind of like when yougo on a diet, you're making new
year's resolution, you come atit, you're really hitting it
hard at the beginning of theyear and you're sincere and
(35:33):
you're going to do everythingnecessary to improve your
outcome, but maybe a month inyou start to slip a little bit.
Two months in you slip and thenby the third or fourth month
it's just kind of gone back tothe way it was, and maybe that's
part of the reason why we don'treally see the needle moving is
because we don't have a tooluntil now that continually keeps
(35:57):
this dialogue between employeesand their management going
beyond just simply a past, asimple point in time.
Dr. Pelè (36:06):
Yes, and to add to what you're saying, we don't
have a tool that taps into thesuperhuman power of habits.
It's really that simple.
When we automate our engagementand our happiness and all those
intangibles to point towardperformance, it becomes easier
to do, and the tool is designedto focus on building habits of
(36:34):
those particular elements, and Ithink that's something that I'm
not sure anyone has implementedbefore now, and I'm not saying
it's a brand new idea.
There's a lot of data about howto build habits for individuals
.
The issue is how to buildhabits for organizations, and
that's what the software does.
Dr. Rick Garlick (36:51):
Really, it has to be ingrained in the culture,
right?
Or else it just simplydissipates.
So let me ask you anotherimportant question that someone
on this podcast might belistening and considering what
you have to say.
Obviously, the amount of effortinvolved on both the part of
the human resources professionaland the people who participate
(37:12):
in this process is going to be afactor.
Right, we can't put too muchmore effort on the HR person,
nor on the employees.
We can't take them away fromwhatever they're doing on a
day-to-day basis.
How much effort is required toparticipate in your process?
Dr. Pelè (37:30):
How about three minutes once a week?
That's all we need Threeminutes for you to answer a five
to 10-point question once aweek on Fridays.
Here's how it works Basically.
Every week we get a new chanceto live our lives at work and
(37:56):
create success for ourorganization.
In fact, I heard once that andI don't know if this is true but
I heard once from Les Brownthat most of the heart attacks
in this country, in this world,actually happened on Monday
morning at 9 am.
Dr. Rick Garlick (38:11):
Now, I have not verified that.
Dr. Pelè (38:13):
But I can see how that would happen because Monday
morning comes and they go.
Oh, I don't want to go backthere, I'm going to get up,
something like that.
And I think that If we had asystem that says you know what,
let's spend this week focusingon these five elements, because
we know that on Friday morningat 9 am we're gonna get a simple
question that asks us how happywere you this week and how
(38:40):
appreciated did you feel fromyour manager, and the pride and
the other questions and so on.
If we simply had thatexpectation every week, what we
focus on grows, you can't helpbut become biased toward trying
to seeking an improvement onyour happiness when you know
every Friday you're gonna getthat question for three minutes
(39:01):
and you know that your leadersare watching this.
You know that everyone'sparticipating in voting on ideas
and what can improve theparticipation of the
organization.
It's a whole community ofpractice geared toward one thing
helping the golden eggs and thegolden goose both feel
important, profitable happinessin the same context.
Dr. Rick Garlick (39:25):
Well, I think that's a great summation.
We don't wanna give too muchaway in the podcast.
This is really just meant tointroduce people to you and the
concepts.
But there's another thing Iwanna ask you before we draw to
a close, and that is something Ifind so interesting and unique
about both you as a person andyour business consulting piece
(39:46):
is the way that you link thisinto your musical background,
musical experience, and I thinkthat I'd be leaving something
major out of your story if Ididn't let you talk a little bit
about that.
Dr. Pelè (40:00):
Well, you can probably see the smile on my face, so
I'm gonna-.
Dr. Rick Garlick (40:03):
I think you're happy.
Dr. Pelè (40:05):
Yeah, it makes me happy to talk about music and
these things.
But I wanna let everyone knowthat I'm in safe hands with you
because you, my friend, haveactually done things like Elvis
tribute bands and you've been agreat singer in the past, so you
get this passion.
But let me just say that Ithink I probably woke up one day
(40:26):
and realized that music isprobably the most, the one thing
that I am most passionate about.
I love to write music andcreate music and I found that I
had left my music behind.
You know, I was making sixfigures at some big company
somewhere and had a big title,but I wasn't happy and so I said
(40:46):
you know what?
I'm gonna bring my happinessinto my work, into the thing
that makes me profitable.
That's actually where I decidedthat profitable happiness was a
thing.
Almost everywhere you go youfind people at an individual
level who wanna be happy, butthey've left their happiness
behind.
Whatever that is, a hobby, athing, whatever, they've left it
(41:07):
somewhere and they're focusingonly on the profit piece, as
Maslow says.
You know a lot of people havemisunderstood, by the way,
maslow his hierarchy to be firstdo the profitable things, then
do the happiness.
He wasn't saying that.
That structure has to have thatsequence.
In fact, you can start byconsidering what is the thing
(41:27):
that makes me happy and do both.
That's profitable happiness.
So for me, I took my music and Isaid you know what?
I'm gonna write a book whereevery chapter is gonna be
devoted to one song, and even ifthat's the only link, I'm gonna
do that.
But the songs themselves aremotivational.
They help people aspire andbelieve in themselves and show
(41:49):
up with that sense of happinessand build those kinds of
cultures.
You know, I have a song calledI Got Happy, which is all.
It's a celebration of the ideaof just being happy.
I have another song called I AmA Conqueror, a conqueror of my
own fears, and when I I'll justspeak for myself.
(42:09):
When I listen to these songs, Ican't help but be just a little
bit more emotionally engaged inwhat my purpose is.
And so I decided that I wasgonna include music, which is
our universal language.
It is the one thing we allagree with and understand.
I thought I would make thisbook and this project all about
including music some way, evenat the sides and the corners,
(42:33):
not necessarily as the mainthing.
The main thing is the book, thescience, the software and the
implementation and consulting.
But just for fun, can we just,can we just dance a little bit,
can we just?
And can we just be happy inthat fun?
You know way, that's thepurpose of the music is to
inject some beauty into theequation.
Dr. Rick Garlick (42:54):
Well, I was gonna say that again.
I love what you're saying and Ithink maybe I'll just suggest
this and I'll just throw out aprovocative idea here that maybe
another reason why we haven'tseen as many results as we might
have seen otherwise in thiswhole area of improving
engagement is maybe we look atit too much from a left brain
(43:15):
perspective and not enough froma right brain perspective.
I love the idea.
You bring creativity andemotion and all these sorts of
things into your solution andyou know, as someone who's
really a right brain personmyself, even though I do a lot
of work with numbers andstatistics, I appreciate that
creative side and just bringingsome unique thinking into the
(43:37):
workplace, because we got tokind of unplug this stagnation.
I don't know that people reallyare happy at work now.
As you're describing it, wehear all these terms like the
great resignation and quiet,quitting, and it just seems like
there's a lot of unhappinessand a lot of problems that you
(43:57):
know.
Maybe they're a residual topandemic, but you know we
certainly see them really risingit up and everything.
And after all the money, themillions of dollars we spent for
the last several decades, wereally do need some new thinking
.
So I know we're just about atthe end of our time.
I'll just ask one more thing Isthere anything that I should
(44:19):
have asked you that I left out,or did we cover everything that
was really important?
Dr. Pelè (44:24):
We covered everything that was really important, but I
will add one thing, and that is, for anyone listening how can
they be a part of this movement,if you will that we're talking
about this idea that employeehappiness can lead to real,
tangible productivity and highperformance.
And I have a great offer rightnow, which is that we're looking
(44:47):
for early adopters.
We're looking for leaders andorganizations who want to try
something different.
You know you talked about this70% disengagement for the past
30 years.
Maybe at your organization,things could be different If you
try something different.
Right as Einstein said, keepdoing the same thing, keep
getting the results.
So we're looking fororganizations who will be early
(45:10):
adopters and will do some pilotprograms with our software.
So, if that's you, this is agreat time to do it.
This is a there's a greatincentive to do it, and I'm
happy to talk to anyone who'sinterested in taking that step.
Dr. Rick Garlick (45:25):
And how do they get a hold of you?
Dr. Pelè (45:27):
Well, I'm on LinkedIn and I have a website.
I'll just really quickly tellyou.
On LinkedIn it's my handle isDr Pallee, D-R-P-E-L-E.
So just go to LinkedIn andsearch for Dr Pallee.
I should come up.
I'm also at drpalleecomD-R-P-E-L-Ecom.
So if you wanted to bring me inas a speaker and someone to do
(45:48):
some training, that's where youwould go for that.
The software is profitablehappiness, and that's at
profitablehappinesscom.
Dr. Rick Garlick (45:57):
All right well , Dr Pallee, thank you so much
for allowing me this privilegeto be on this side of the
interview, because it's rare forme to just be able to sit back
and listen to a thought leaderlike yourself share ideas, and I
hope that we'll be workingtogether on some of these
engagements and that muchsuccess with your book and
(46:21):
profitable happiness.
Dr. Pelè (46:24):
Dr Rick, you once told me that I was what a purple
pineapple I can't remember.
Dr. Rick Garlick (46:29):
Orange pineapple.
Yeah, orange pineapple, orangepineapple.
Dr. Pelè (46:33):
And I love that so much because what you're telling
me is stay true to what youbelieve, because even if the
whole world doesn't know aboutit yet, those who do will truly
benefit from it and will trulyconnect.
And that's just the nature ofstarting something from scratch,
like you and I are doing and,by the way, you're great at
interviewing.
Dr. Rick Garlick (46:52):
So I'm gonna have to come talk to you about
that.
Well, that's good.
Just a tiny bit of context onthat orange pineapple comment.
Why I referenced that is thatwe always see vanilla.
Everybody's always got vanillaand vanilla.
Everybody likes it, but I don'tthink anybody's particularly
passionate about it.
Orange pineapple is my favoritetype of ice cream.
(47:13):
It's unique, it's different.
Not a lot of stores sell it,but the people that like it like
me, they really like it andthey'll seek it out.
And that's what I see in you.
Dr. Pelè (47:24):
Thank you, and you know I should tell everyone big
disclaimer here You're a mentorto me, you're a friend, of
course, but you have really,really supported me and I wanna
thank you for that.
Dr. Rick Garlick (47:35):
Well, it's truly a pleasure.
I'm glad that life brought ustogether All right.
Well, thank you, and thank youfor listening, and we hope that
you've enjoyed this podcast.
Dr. Pelè (47:48):
Thanks for tuning in to the Profitable Happiness
Podcast.
For more episodes, visitdrpalaiscom.
And remember get happy firstand success will follow.
Hello happy people.
Welcome to the ProfitableHappiness Podcast.
Dr. Rick Garlick (00:06):
Welcome everyone to the Profitable
Happiness Podcast.
This time it's going to be alittle different.
If you're a regular listener ofa Dr Pillay's podcast, you know
that typically he is theinterviewer, and people like
myself have been privileged tobe guests on his podcast.
Well, this time the tables areturned.
(00:27):
He is going to be the guest.
He's the thought leader thistime that you're going to be
getting a wisdom and insightfrom, and I'm going to take my
turn as the hopefully insightfulinterviewer.
So I'd like to introducesomeone again, if you've
listened to his podcast, thatyou know well, but maybe you
don't know him as well as youthink.
(00:48):
Dr Pillay, my good friend, is aneducator, a musician, a
software architect and thebest-selling author of a new
book that's just come out that Ihighly recommend everyone, call
Profitable Happiness the fivekey habits of a high performance
organization, and we'll betalking a lot about that book
today.
But Dr Pillay, he's a man witha mission.
(01:11):
He seeks to change the worldthrough books, software training
and music, by helpingorganizations build high
cultures of high employeeengagement and business
performance.
So, without further ado, drPillay, I've given the tea up,
but there's a lot of things thatpeople don't know about you.
Tell us a little bit about yourbackground and how you got to
(01:36):
this particular point in yourcareer.
Dr. Pelè (01:39):
Oh my goodness, dr Rick, first of all, before I go
into answering your question, Iwould like to say thank you, dr
Rick Garlich, for being here,for doing this.
It is not only a pleasure, itis an honor to be on this side
while you, with your researchbackground and experience, we
get to talk about some of theseimportant topics.
(02:01):
So thank you for being here.
So to answer your question howdid I get here?
What's my background?
Oh my goodness, it's reallyinteresting how we find
ourselves, in the places that wefind ourselves, and when you
look back on where you've come,you're like oh my goodness,
that's quite a journey.
I came from a place where Idiscovered at a very young age
(02:23):
the importance of one word, andthat word is happiness.
Now, in a world where you go towork and you have leaders who
are focused on businessproductivity and profit,
sometimes, unfortunately, at theexpense of employee happiness,
you really find that this ismaybe an epidemic or worse right
, this is something that is areal challenge for organizations
(02:47):
, and so I learned at a veryyoung age that happiness comes
first before success.
If you think of finding successfirst and all the physical
things that you can achieve fromsuccess before your happiness.
You'll wake up one day on thewrong mountain and everything
will just be wrong.
So what happened to me is thatat a very young age, I was in a
(03:11):
war zone.
I was born into an existingcivil war in Nigeria, west
Africa and, as you can imagine,bombs are falling, guns
everywhere, people are dying.
People like myself and mymother are parts of.
You know.
We're part of a refugee campand we're running from place to
place and you know the funnything is, when you're worrying
(03:34):
about dying and you're worryingabout food and how you're going
to survive and beat the hunger,it's very difficult to be happy.
And yet we had nothing, and mymother did the most amazing
thing in order to save our lives.
Instead of giving me food whichshe couldn't or shelter, she
(03:55):
simply sang to me.
She would sing songs to me,songs, music.
She brought music into my lifeat this very young age and you
know what that music did.
It completely distracted mefrom the fear of dying and from
the pain of hunger, and it mademe happy.
And that is when I learned thathappiness can come before
(04:16):
success.
It can come before every otherthing.
If first you find yourhappiness, everything else will
follow, and it's the same fororganizations.
If leaders can understand thattheir employees just want to be
happy at work, they want toexperience high engagement, they
want to be connected and havemeaning in the things that
(04:37):
they're doing, if that becomes acore focus for leaders to
encourage, to encourageeverything else will follow.
So that's how I got here.
Believe it or not, it allstarted from a civil war.
Dr. Rick Garlick (04:48):
Well, my friend, we could probably do an
entire podcast just talkingabout your interesting backstory
.
I mean, I think that's got tobe one of the more interesting
backstories and what you bringfrom simply your life
experiences and yourunderstanding of the world.
I think that, right off the bat, makes you very uniquely
qualified to talk on thissubject to happiness.
(05:10):
But I know also we've talkedand we've gotten to know one
another.
I also know that you've got aPhD in organizational behavior
and you've worked in humanresources.
Tell our audience a little bitabout that background.
So you came over here and thenyou moved through the
educational system and you foundyour path toward helping engage
(05:31):
people in their workplaces.
Dr. Pelè (05:34):
Oh, wow, that's a great question because I
actually had to make a jump offaith somehow from just
happiness to music to, somehow,human resources and software.
It's like, how did you do allthat?
Well, actually it actuallyturns out to be very simple.
I learned somewhere that thereare two kinds of happiness.
(05:56):
There's one kind of happinessthat is simply about seeking
pleasure.
Ra-ra, how you do it, I'mfeeling good.
We got ping pong tables in thefoyer.
That's one kind of happiness.
We call that hedonic happiness.
But there's also another kindof happiness that involves high
engagement, high sense ofpurpose and meaning.
(06:17):
It's the kind of happiness youfeel when you forget time is
going by and you're so focused,so in tune with what you're
doing, the work that you'recreating.
And I found that that kind ofhappiness was why I loved to do
music, because music is allabout that total engagement.
I love to be creative, to writebooks and to do all these
(06:38):
things because I loved thehappiness that comes with being
highly engaged in something.
And so to find a career and apath in this world.
Of course I went through all thecreativity things.
I was trying to be an architect, I became a musician.
I decided you know what I needto get my PhD?
Because, guess what?
My dad had one and my mom hadone.
(06:59):
I was like, okay, you got to godo this.
But I discovered that I lovededucation so much and so I went
and got my PhD and the naturalthing was to study people and
organizations for me.
And so from there, of course, Iwent on and I've been a vice
president of human resources ata health care organization, at
(07:21):
Dale Carnegie training.
I was a vice president ofproduct and marketing and I've
done many things that showed mewhat the corporate world looked
like, especially big companieslike EDS I was director of
marketing there and PTC and abunch of other places.
And I learned that there's onecommon theme Organizations need
(07:41):
help focusing on the happinessof their people, and not just
the hedonic happiness, but theeudaimonic happiness, which is
the one that is more aboutmeaning.
And, of course, instead ofcalling things eudaimonic, which
sounds kind of weird, I came upwith this moniker called
profitable happiness, whichagain describes that kind of
happiness that is all aboutemployee satisfaction,
(08:04):
engagement, that is about focusand just really helping
employees find a sense ofmeaning and purpose in what
they're doing.
That's how you get highproductivity is when everybody
is rowing in the same direction,highly engaged and happy.
Dr. Rick Garlick (08:20):
Well, first of all, let me just say just
listen to your story.
You are truly what I woulddescribe as a Renaissance man,
right?
And I also want to say thatanybody who hires you to come in
and consult or advise theircompany on workforce issues is
not going to get the same boringvanilla consultant.
They're going to get a veryunique perspective at all your
(08:42):
life experiences and, to me, allof that background you bring
adds such a dimension to anyconsulting work you would do.
So, having said that, let metake your idea and build on it a
little bit.
So I think what you said isreally, really an important
distinction, because someonecould hear this notion about
(09:03):
being happy at work, and we'vestudied organizations for many,
many years, you and I, and weknow that there are certain
organizations out there who haveindividuals who are making
large salaries and have a verylight workload and they're
probably pretty happy, right,but they're not necessarily very
productive.
Another saying that a friend ofmine often says well, it's
(09:25):
called work for a reason.
If it was fun, it would becalled fun.
It's called work because it'swork.
So I think what you did is youmade a very important
distinction for our listenersthat we're not talking about
just making people feel goodwithout that productivity
component to the overall picture.
But let me take you to one ofthe most popular adages I've
(09:51):
heard all throughout my careersince the 90s, and that really
comes through the service profitchain model that a lot of
people are familiar with, and Ihave heard so many people say
this line and I don't alwaysknow how I feel about it.
I like to hear how you feelabout it.
But happy employees mean happycustomers.
(10:12):
Is that what you're saying?
Dr. Pelè (10:16):
Actually, that is precisely what I'm saying, you
know.
Think about this.
You have companies on the oneside and you have the people who
drive the productivity of anytype on one side, and that is
the employees.
You got the leaders.
You got the employees.
I'm going to tell you a smallstory, a very short story.
(10:37):
It's a fable.
Once upon a time there was afarmer who had a golden goose
that was delivering golden eggs.
He was so enamored with thesegolden eggs and so happy and so
fulfilled and he was justcompletely getting rich off of
these golden eggs that one dayhe got greedy.
He decided to get more eggs ata faster, you know better,
(11:02):
cheaper, all of that stuff.
You wanted to get more eggs.
Now he decided the best thingto do is to kill the golden
goose, open it up and get allthe eggs that were inside.
Well, you know the story right.
Unfortunately, the goose diedand the eggs stopped.
Believe it or not, I have foundthis little analogy I've shared
(11:23):
with you to be the centralproblem with organizations.
Our leaders are too focused,too focused on output, right
versus the input.
They're more focused on thebusiness, profitability and
success than they are on thewell-being and happiness of
their employees.
In fact, Gallup did someresearch and found that 85% of
(11:47):
employees believe that theirleaders don't care about their
well-being as much as they careabout the success of the
business, if you will, theorganization, and so it's really
backward, and so my mission hasbeen to help people understand
this link between.
It seems so normal, it seemslike we should know this right,
(12:08):
but people in action, in dailywork life, don't always focus on
this the simple link betweenhappy employees and productivity
.
It's self-evident.
When I feel happy with the workI'm doing, when I feel proud of
the work I'm doing, when I feelengaged in the work I'm doing,
(12:29):
my work is better.
My work is fueled by passionand commitment and
accountability.
When those things are lacking,I just want to leave on Friday.
I just want to go back and saythank God, it's Friday, I'm out
of here.
You want employees that justwant to be at work, because what
they do matters that much tothem, and that's why happy
(12:49):
employees produce profitableorganizations.
You got to make the link.
Dr. Rick Garlick (12:54):
Well, I was going to say that, given the
state of customer satisfactionthese days, there are probably a
lot of really unhappy people atwork because we've never seen
in the last 20 years, accordingto the American Customer
Satisfaction Index, we've neverseen such low customer
satisfaction scores.
It seems like now the focus ison attracting and retaining
(13:18):
employees, but it doesn't seemlike people are necessarily
focused on the kinds of thingsthat you're talking about as a
means to attract and retaintalent.
Everybody's saying, well, wejust need to pay people more.
But we can't afford to do thatand I think, in your opinion, it
would be a lot more than justwhat someone gets paid?
Dr. Pelè (13:38):
Oh, absolutely.
In fact, I did a very funlittle exercise because you will
probably talk about this, butI'm big into the impact of AI on
human resources, and I went toa bunch of my AI links online
and I asked a simple question.
I said what are the top fiveemployee challenges that
(13:58):
companies are experiencing andare willing to pay money to
solve?
Of all the different thingsemployees could be dealing with,
what are these things?
Every single tool I looked atand, by the way, ai is good
because it actually does have alarge language model of all the
data that's in the world, and soit's a valid thing.
Regardless of how you feelabout AI, it can give you data
(14:20):
fast, much better than going toGoogle or a website.
So I went to Bard, I went toOpenAI, I went to different ones
, and the answer was very, verytelling.
Pay was not on the list, noteven close.
At the very top of that listwas employee engagement, next
was employee retention and afterthat was employee recruitment.
(14:44):
These are the top real problemsthat our organizations are
facing.
Of course, productivity,wellness and so on are down
there, but not even anywherenear that was the issue of
employees not being paid enough.
Pay was not the main problemthat employees were having.
And so I used to say when I wasa vice president of human
(15:05):
resources, to help everyone inmy little organization
understand what our mission was,I used to say that our job is
to find, keep and grow greatemployees.
We got to find them, that's arecruitment problem.
We got to keep them, that's anengagement problem.
We got to grow them right, thatis a retention problem and an
engagement problem, and so onand so forth.
(15:26):
So I really think that pay isjust not that important really
in the big picture.
If you hire me at a nice salary, I'll be excited for a few
weeks, but happiness is suchthat we always plateau and look
for the next level, and so thatmoney is soon going to be
something that's not asimportant to me as really just
(15:48):
being happy every day when Ishow up.
So I think that anybody whothinks throwing money at people
is a solution is missing a bigopportunity.
Dr. Rick Garlick (15:57):
All right, so let me ask you what I believe to
be a very, very criticalquestion.
Again, it's something you and Ihave talked about in our
personal discussions.
So since the 90s, you hadmentioned Gallup, and I had the
privilege to work at Gallup inthe 90s and was there at the
time that they developed a lotof the tools and products and
(16:20):
theories and ideas that havereally changed how people think
about employee engagement.
For one, the term was reallyevolved from employee
satisfaction now to employeeengagement.
But despite all those decades ofprobably millions of dollars
being spent on surveys, not tomention incentives, rewards,
(16:43):
training, everything possible totry to make that connection
Like, well, if I can increaseemployee engagement, I can
increase productivity andsatisfaction on the part of
customers all these things andin spite of all that effort, the
needle has really not moved andit feels like millions of
(17:05):
dollars been spent.
I mean, you might see it go upa little bit, then down, but I
think as we look at the 20 or30-year trend charts, it never
really moved more than 6percentage points either way in
terms of the percentage ofpeople who consider themselves
really engaged to work.
So you've come along and you'vegot the answer to that You've
(17:27):
got the solution that all thesepeople have been spending all
this money on all these otherproducts and solutions.
They need to talk to you why.
Dr. Pelè (17:38):
Who knew right.
Well, thank you for that setup,because you're right, and I
think that number is about 70%disengaged or worse at work for
the past 30 years, and it hasnot changed much, as you said,
as you described.
And the question is why is itthat we haven't found a way to
(17:59):
make a connection between whatemployees want and what
companies want?
If you go back to my littleanalogy of the golden goose and
the golden eggs, that's reallythe problem.
Employees want something, butdo we have the empathy to step
into their shoes and give themthat thing, that happiness let's
call it eudaimonic orprofitable happiness for now.
(18:22):
If we give them that, how do wesomehow get high performance?
So let me tell you how you dothat.
This is the thing that no onethat I'm aware of and I've done
a lot of research is exploringas much as I believe I'm hoping
to explore, and that is thisHuman beings have a magic
(18:43):
superpower.
We have a magic superpower.
We have the ability to, if youwill, put things on autopilot,
should we choose to.
That superpower is calledhabits.
If you want to play a musicalinstrument and you are a
musician, just as I am, becauseand I know you shared this with
me back in the day.
(19:05):
You did quite some fun musicalthings, so you understand this.
Anyone who's ever tried tolearn a musical instrument will
understand this.
It takes practice and when youpractice something, you build
muscle memory in the brain and,before you know it, what you
couldn't do yesterday, all of asudden you become able to do it.
Your fingers have adoptedsomething.
(19:26):
What is that?
That's the superpower of habits, and it works not only for
playing an instrument or forplaying sports, but also with
human behavior andorganizational behavior, or even
organizational culture.
If you repeat things enoughtimes over time, you'll build
some neural networks andconnections in what we call
Myelin, which will create habits, stronger pathways for those
(19:51):
things you're trying to rememberand do.
Before you know it, it becomesautomatic and you're putting
things on automatic.
If you can put your engagementfor employees on autopilot, if
you can put the happiness ofyour employees on autopilot by
helping them repeat certainthings and focusing on certain
(20:11):
things over and over again, oneday the habits will take over
and your organization will soarinto high performance
automatically.
I'll give you one quick analogymy children.
I have three my daughters andmy son.
All of them, I was privilegedto teach them all how to ride a
bicycle at the age of six yearsold.
(20:33):
For each of them, the samepattern happened each time.
I would teach my child, I wouldput them on the bike and we
would do this day in, day outand in summer, usually every
single day for weeks, and theywould keep on falling off.
We had training legs,everything.
It was terrible.
None of my kids would learn.
(20:55):
I would be like, hey, let'sjust do it again.
Like, okay, dad, and we wouldstruggle.
Then one day for each of them.
I had no prediction of whenthat day happened, but one day
for each of them.
I let them go and they wereriding a bicycle and they didn't
need the training wheels andthey never, ever, went back.
What happened that day?
Let me tell you what happenedthat day.
(21:17):
The information and thecoordination required to ride a
bicycle came from theirconscious mind and went down
into the subconscious mind.
That architecture of the brainis the superpower called habits.
What we need to do is to tapinto human habits and build
habits in organizations, habitsof happiness and engagement in
(21:40):
high performance.
That's been the missing link.
Dr. Rick Garlick (21:43):
Let me ask this question.
We know that there have beenbooks written on habits of
highly effective people.
This notion of habits issomething that has been explored
before, but you connect habitsto happiness.
Maybe talk a little bit aboutthe neuroscience work even
beyond habit formation,understanding that the emotional
(22:06):
part of the brain is really thepart of the brain that drives
behavior.
Help me understand how you linkhabits to happiness.
Dr. Pelè (22:17):
Okay, I'll give you one very basic rule about how
the brain works.
The brain is the most powerfulthing.
In fact, there's more todiscover in our minds right here
than I think, even in outerspace.
That's how much power we have.
The inner space is so much moreand we could do so much more by
learning what's going on here.
(22:39):
The mind is so powerful, but itis also blind.
Here's what I mean by that.
The mind doesn't care whatinputs are coming in, it will
just accept it.
If you repeat that input enoughtimes, you create that muscle
memory that you're looking for.
Again, the mind is blind.
(23:01):
It doesn't care if you'refocusing on being a great cook
or a bank robber.
If you do it enough times,you'll get very good at it,
whether it's a good thing or abad thing good habit or a bad
habit when people understand thebasic principle that the mind
is really a machine that we canmanipulate through things like
(23:23):
repetition and practice, that'swhen you turn that engine on.
Basically, the answer to thatquestion is happiness is a
muscle, just like buildingmuscles at the gym.
It actually is a tangible thingthat gets better with
repetition, gets stronger.
(23:45):
It's a choice that gets easierto make if you practice the
things associated with happiness.
That's the key.
The difference between a booklike the Seven Habits of High
Effective People the things I'mtalking about in profitable
happiness, the five habits ofhigh-performing organizations is
(24:06):
the neuroscience.
Stephen Covey, a wonderfulteacher, was talking at a level
of principles.
Now I'm talking at a level ofbiology.
This stuff actually works.
When you go into the mind, look, there are pictures.
Now we can do videos to seewhere the mind lights up when
(24:30):
you're happy.
It's a tangible thing that wenow have data for when you see
where the mind is lighting up.
If you light up that sectionover and over again and build a
habit of doing that, it becomeseasier to do.
Dr. Rick Garlick (24:45):
Let's unpack this a little bit more.
It seems like there's more tohappiness than what we might
typically think of just having agood feeling, the endorphins in
our brain going off, but itseems like there's some pillars
that are really important toyour work.
It seems like among them arethings like the degree to which
I can master or feel good aboutthe work I do.
(25:07):
That that's something thatfuels happiness.
Talk about the five pillarsthat you've identified as being
core to the definition of thistype no-transcript You're
identifying.
Dr. Pelè (25:22):
Absolutely.
And you know I have a niceMenomic that I think a little
abbreviation that I use toremember it and please don't
laugh it's H a P, p?
Y.
There you go so.
So, of course, as we know, withwith any of these abbreviations
(25:43):
, it's really just a strategyfor communication and
memorization.
It we're not being tried at all.
I have done a lot of literaturereviews and research to Come up
with a set of five pillars thatare in the book that described
the, the elements that we needreally to build cultures of high
performance, that are aboutemployee Well-being and so on.
(26:05):
So what are they?
Number one is happiness.
We've talked a lot about thekind of happiness you don't mind
, a happiness that powersengagement and that helps people
just want to be at work and doeven more than than they're
asked to do.
The next thing is Appreciation.
Now, a lot of the research.
Research shows that.
A very simple thing, like whena manager shows Consistent
(26:27):
appreciation to an employee thatbuilds a sense of belonging and
well-being and happiness thatallows that employee to want to
go above and beyond.
Just a simple managerappreciation that is consistent
the.
The third element, ha is p.
That the first P we call pride.
(26:48):
Now, although pride has notbeen researched as much as
Happiness and engagement and exp, employee experience and other
things like that, it actually issurprisingly as powerful as
anything you can imagine formotivating people to do More and
to do what they really believein.
It turns out from the researchthat when people feel Pride in
(27:11):
their work, pride in their teamand pride in their organization,
there are actually three levels.
A lot of people talk about justthe two levels, but there's
actually a pride of just you andyour nuclear team.
When people feel pride in thesethings, they actually want to
do more and go to the next level.
So that's HAP, the, the.
The fourth P is calledparticipation.
(27:33):
Now, a lot of people wouldrefer to this as the employee
experience, but the interestingthing is that when you have a
top-down Mandating of anexperience, it's not as
effective as when you haveemployees participating Creating
, designing and implementingthat experience, and that's a
missing link and a challenge, anopportunity actually right
(27:54):
there, and so employeeParticipation turns out to be
one of the best ways to createthat positive employee
experience that all the researchshows builds Organizational
success.
You know, one of my bestexamples, personal to me, is
Facebook.
Now, I'm not advocating thatanybody become a Facebook fan or
(28:16):
or not a Facebook fan.
I'm just saying that Facebookturns out to be a great example
of employee experience in termsof employee participation.
I went to one of their officesin California and I was in a
tour and they taught us in thattour that everything, every
single thing we're seeing hereWas designed by employees.
(28:36):
You would see, you know bigsigns that says that say things
like hacker, because weemployees, we're all hackers
here.
That's our culture.
You would see a big wall whereemployees would write their
dreams and hopes and everybodywould participate in creating
this.
This experience, and soemployee participation is is
really important for buildingthat experience that creates
(28:59):
high performance.
And then the last one is what Icall yardsticks, meaning just
measuring.
Now, it's important to measureengagement, as we've discussed
earlier, but there may be otherfields of thought and and things
that cultures you want to build, that you can add.
So I just look at that as let'sjust measure, because, as as
Peter Drucker says says, youknow, what you measure is what,
(29:22):
what improves.
I like to say what you measureis what becomes a habit, and
it's a habit that is thesuperpower of success.
Dr. Rick Garlick (29:30):
Well, I think you know that's a great lead
into.
The next thing I wanted to askyou about is I know that you
created a software tool that ifan organization were to engage
you to come in that.
A big part, a big aspect of thesolution that you bring is a
particular software tool thatyou yourself have developed, and
(29:54):
we won't take the time todemonstrate the tool.
People can do that by Callingyour contact to you and I know
you're happy to demonstrate it.
But tell a little bit about thesoftware tool and why it's
unique from other survey toolsor platforms that people might
purchase or have purchased.
Dr. Pelè (30:13):
Yeah, absolutely.
Thank you for that question andI'm gonna actually start by
showing you something.
See this book Probably can'tsee it very well, but it's
called profitable happiness thefive key habits of a high
performing, or high performanceorganization.
This book is really thebusiness card for the software.
(30:34):
It explains the background andgives people a sense of slowly
but surely understanding as youcan see in this diagram that
when all their people Are rowingin the same direction, highly
engaged and happy, that's howyou create high performance.
So now the question is well,how do we go from the book to
the software, and what is thesoftware all about?
(30:56):
So I've talked about the modelHAPPY.
The five elements that togetherhave to Are have been shown by
research to create moreprofitable cultures, more highly
engaged cultures.
Now the question is how do youoperationalize that?
One of the best ways to do that, believe it or not, is Software
(31:17):
.
You know, training is great,workshops are great,
motivational speeches are great,but what happens when you're
done With the training?
What software does is it allowsus to reinforce and extend the
implementation of whatever we'retrying to build.
There's this thing called theforgetting curve when we learn
(31:38):
something.
There's something called thelearning curve.
When we go way up, we'reexcited, we're learning,
everything's great.
Then Monday morning at 9 AM,after the training is over, it
begins the forgetting curve,where we begin to naturally
forget everything.
And this is research driven.
If you want to maintain andtransfer the learning of
anything, you have to do spacedreinforcement of things over
(32:02):
time, and that's how you combatthe forgetting curve.
Think of profitable happinesssoftware as something that
builds culture and organizationsby continuing to reinforce the
culture that we know willproduce high performance, which
has again the elements of happyemployees, appreciated employees
(32:24):
by their managers, pride in thework they do, high employee
participation to create anemployee experience.
And then yardsticks measuringengagement, measuring all the
different elements of the kindof culture that we want.
That's what the software does.
It helps people focus on theright things that build the
culture, build habits throughrepetition and, by the way, the
(32:46):
habits are built by simplygetting questions.
It's like a pulse survey.
You get asked the samequestions over and over.
You can't help but focus onthose things and, as we know,
whatever you focus on will grow.
The repetition of thosequestions creates the habits
that we're looking for for aculture.
(33:07):
The third thing the softwaredoes is by all this interaction
over a community of practice, ifyou will to build a certain
type of culture.
You get a whole bunch of data.
You can now go in and say, hey,how happy are my employees.
Imagine answering that question.
Then, when you answer it lastweek and they answer it this
week and you see a delta, maybeyou got to do something about
(33:28):
that.
Now you've got data about everysingle element that builds
profitable organizations.
With this data, there's one moremissing link, and this is why I
love AI so much.
Now you can ask the system foradvice.
Sure, you could go out and hireMarshall Goldsmith, who I'm
grateful he actually reviewedone of my books.
(33:49):
I'm not trying to say don'tcall Marshall, but I'm saying
you can hire Marshall Goldsmithfor $100,000.
Come talk to you for one hour.
Or you could ask our systemProfitable Happiness.
Ask the AI.
Given the data that we havethat has been captured by our
system here, how do we improveour employee engagement?
(34:11):
How do we improve pride in thisorganization?
How do we improve theperformance of this organization
so sales can go up instead ofdown, and instantly?
Because of the large languagemodel of AI, you'll get answers
based on whatever questionsyou're asking.
Dr. Rick Garlick (34:27):
Well, one of the things let me just take a
step back and say that, one ofthe things right off the bat
that, as you talk, distinguisheswhat you're offering from other
, say, survey tools is that,rather than having a point in
time survey, like once a year,once every six months, or even a
(34:48):
pulse survey that you mightgive once a month, your survey
and your tool is really anongoing exchange, ongoing
dialogue between theorganization and its employees.
Fair to say, that is preciselycorrect, and so it always keeps
people engaged in the process.
Because I think what happenswith these tools and again, I've
(35:12):
done many of these studies inmy career and what happens is we
typically will come up withseveral really good action steps
from the data.
And it's kind of like when yougo on a diet, you're making new
year's resolution, you come atit, you're really hitting it
hard at the beginning of theyear and you're sincere and
(35:33):
you're going to do everythingnecessary to improve your
outcome, but maybe a month inyou start to slip a little bit.
Two months in you slip and thenby the third or fourth month
it's just kind of gone back tothe way it was, and maybe that's
part of the reason why we don'treally see the needle moving is
because we don't have a tooluntil now that continually keeps
(35:57):
this dialogue between employeesand their management going
beyond just simply a past, asimple point in time.
Dr. Pelè (36:06):
Yes, and to add to what you're saying, we don't
have a tool that taps into thesuperhuman power of habits.
It's really that simple.
When we automate our engagementand our happiness and all those
intangibles to point towardperformance, it becomes easier
to do, and the tool is designedto focus on building habits of
(36:34):
those particular elements, and Ithink that's something that I'm
not sure anyone has implementedbefore now, and I'm not saying
it's a brand new idea.
There's a lot of data about howto build habits for individuals
.
The issue is how to buildhabits for organizations, and
that's what the software does.
Dr. Rick Garlick (36:51):
Really, it has to be ingrained in the culture,
right?
Or else it just simplydissipates.
So let me ask you anotherimportant question that someone
on this podcast might belistening and considering what
you have to say.
Obviously, the amount of effortinvolved on both the part of
the human resources professionaland the people who participate
(37:12):
in this process is going to be afactor.
Right, we can't put too muchmore effort on the HR person,
nor on the employees.
We can't take them away fromwhatever they're doing on a
day-to-day basis.
How much effort is required toparticipate in your process?
Dr. Pelè (37:30):
How about three minutes once a week?
That's all we need Threeminutes for you to answer a five
to 10-point question once aweek on Fridays.
Here's how it works Basically.
Every week we get a new chanceto live our lives at work and
(37:56):
create success for ourorganization.
In fact, I heard once that andI don't know if this is true but
I heard once from Les Brownthat most of the heart attacks
in this country, in this world,actually happened on Monday
morning at 9 am.
Dr. Rick Garlick (38:11):
Now, I have not verified that.
Dr. Pelè (38:13):
But I can see how that would happen because Monday
morning comes and they go.
Oh, I don't want to go backthere, I'm going to get up,
something like that.
And I think that If we had asystem that says you know what,
let's spend this week focusingon these five elements, because
we know that on Friday morningat 9 am we're gonna get a simple
question that asks us how happywere you this week and how
(38:40):
appreciated did you feel fromyour manager, and the pride and
the other questions and so on.
If we simply had thatexpectation every week, what we
focus on grows, you can't helpbut become biased toward trying
to seeking an improvement onyour happiness when you know
every Friday you're gonna getthat question for three minutes
(39:01):
and you know that your leadersare watching this.
You know that everyone'sparticipating in voting on ideas
and what can improve theparticipation of the
organization.
It's a whole community ofpractice geared toward one thing
helping the golden eggs and thegolden goose both feel
important, profitable happinessin the same context.
Dr. Rick Garlick (39:25):
Well, I think that's a great summation.
We don't wanna give too muchaway in the podcast.
This is really just meant tointroduce people to you and the
concepts.
But there's another thing Iwanna ask you before we draw to
a close, and that is something Ifind so interesting and unique
about both you as a person andyour business consulting piece
(39:46):
is the way that you link thisinto your musical background,
musical experience, and I thinkthat I'd be leaving something
major out of your story if Ididn't let you talk a little bit
about that.
Dr. Pelè (40:00):
Well, you can probably see the smile on my face, so
I'm gonna-.
Dr. Rick Garlick (40:03):
I think you're happy.
Dr. Pelè (40:05):
Yeah, it makes me happy to talk about music and
these things.
But I wanna let everyone knowthat I'm in safe hands with you
because you, my friend, haveactually done things like Elvis
tribute bands and you've been agreat singer in the past, so you
get this passion.
But let me just say that Ithink I probably woke up one day
(40:26):
and realized that music isprobably the most, the one thing
that I am most passionate about.
I love to write music andcreate music and I found that I
had left my music behind.
You know, I was making sixfigures at some big company
somewhere and had a big title,but I wasn't happy and so I said
(40:46):
you know what?
I'm gonna bring my happinessinto my work, into the thing
that makes me profitable.
That's actually where I decidedthat profitable happiness was a
thing.
Almost everywhere you go youfind people at an individual
level who wanna be happy, butthey've left their happiness
behind.
Whatever that is, a hobby, athing, whatever, they've left it
(41:07):
somewhere and they're focusingonly on the profit piece, as
Maslow says.
You know a lot of people havemisunderstood, by the way,
maslow his hierarchy to be firstdo the profitable things, then
do the happiness.
He wasn't saying that.
That structure has to have thatsequence.
In fact, you can start byconsidering what is the thing
(41:27):
that makes me happy and do both.
That's profitable happiness.
So for me, I took my music and Isaid you know what?
I'm gonna write a book whereevery chapter is gonna be
devoted to one song, and even ifthat's the only link, I'm gonna
do that.
But the songs themselves aremotivational.
They help people aspire andbelieve in themselves and show
(41:49):
up with that sense of happinessand build those kinds of
cultures.
You know, I have a song calledI Got Happy, which is all.
It's a celebration of the ideaof just being happy.
I have another song called I AmA Conqueror, a conqueror of my
own fears, and when I I'll justspeak for myself.
(42:09):
When I listen to these songs, Ican't help but be just a little
bit more emotionally engaged inwhat my purpose is.
And so I decided that I wasgonna include music, which is
our universal language.
It is the one thing we allagree with and understand.
I thought I would make thisbook and this project all about
including music some way, evenat the sides and the corners,
(42:33):
not necessarily as the mainthing.
The main thing is the book, thescience, the software and the
implementation and consulting.
But just for fun, can we just,can we just dance a little bit,
can we just?
And can we just be happy inthat fun?
You know way, that's thepurpose of the music is to
inject some beauty into theequation.
Dr. Rick Garlick (42:54):
Well, I was gonna say that again.
I love what you're saying and Ithink maybe I'll just suggest
this and I'll just throw out aprovocative idea here that maybe
another reason why we haven'tseen as many results as we might
have seen otherwise in thiswhole area of improving
engagement is maybe we look atit too much from a left brain
(43:15):
perspective and not enough froma right brain perspective.
I love the idea.
You bring creativity andemotion and all these sorts of
things into your solution andyou know, as someone who's
really a right brain personmyself, even though I do a lot
of work with numbers andstatistics, I appreciate that
creative side and just bringingsome unique thinking into the
(43:37):
workplace, because we got tokind of unplug this stagnation.
I don't know that people reallyare happy at work now.
As you're describing it, wehear all these terms like the
great resignation and quiet,quitting, and it just seems like
there's a lot of unhappinessand a lot of problems that you
(43:57):
know.
Maybe they're a residual topandemic, but you know we
certainly see them really risingit up and everything.
And after all the money, themillions of dollars we spent for
the last several decades, wereally do need some new thinking
.
So I know we're just about atthe end of our time.
I'll just ask one more thing Isthere anything that I should
(44:19):
have asked you that I left out,or did we cover everything that
was really important?
Dr. Pelè (44:24):
We covered everything that was really important, but I
will add one thing, and that is, for anyone listening how can
they be a part of this movement,if you will that we're talking
about this idea that employeehappiness can lead to real,
tangible productivity and highperformance.
And I have a great offer rightnow, which is that we're looking
(44:47):
for early adopters.
We're looking for leaders andorganizations who want to try
something different.
You know you talked about this70% disengagement for the past
30 years.
Maybe at your organization,things could be different If you
try something different.
Right as Einstein said, keepdoing the same thing, keep
getting the results.
So we're looking fororganizations who will be early
(45:10):
adopters and will do some pilotprograms with our software.
So, if that's you, this is agreat time to do it.
This is a there's a greatincentive to do it, and I'm
happy to talk to anyone who'sinterested in taking that step.
Dr. Rick Garlick (45:25):
And how do they get a hold of you?
Dr. Pelè (45:27):
Well, I'm on LinkedIn and I have a website.
I'll just really quickly tellyou.
On LinkedIn it's my handle isDr Pallee, D-R-P-E-L-E.
So just go to LinkedIn andsearch for Dr Pallee.
I should come up.
I'm also at drpalleecomD-R-P-E-L-Ecom.
So if you wanted to bring me inas a speaker and someone to do
(45:48):
some training, that's where youwould go for that.
The software is profitablehappiness, and that's at
profitablehappinesscom.
Dr. Rick Garlick (45:57):
All right well , Dr Pallee, thank you so much
for allowing me this privilegeto be on this side of the
interview, because it's rare forme to just be able to sit back
and listen to a thought leaderlike yourself share ideas, and I
hope that we'll be workingtogether on some of these
engagements and that muchsuccess with your book and
(46:21):
profitable happiness.
Dr. Pelè (46:24):
Dr Rick, you once told me that I was what a purple
pineapple I can't remember.
Dr. Rick Garlick (46:29):
Orange pineapple.
Yeah, orange pineapple, orangepineapple.
Dr. Pelè (46:33):
And I love that so much because what you're telling
me is stay true to what youbelieve, because even if the
whole world doesn't know aboutit yet, those who do will truly
benefit from it and will trulyconnect.
And that's just the nature ofstarting something from scratch,
like you and I are doing and,by the way, you're great at
interviewing.
Dr. Rick Garlick (46:52):
So I'm gonna have to come talk to you about
that.
Well, that's good.
Just a tiny bit of context onthat orange pineapple comment.
Why I referenced that is thatwe always see vanilla.
Everybody's always got vanillaand vanilla.
Everybody likes it, but I don'tthink anybody's particularly
passionate about it.
Orange pineapple is my favoritetype of ice cream.
(47:13):
It's unique, it's different.
Not a lot of stores sell it,but the people that like it like
me, they really like it andthey'll seek it out.
And that's what I see in you.
Dr. Pelè (47:24):
Thank you, and you know I should tell everyone big
disclaimer here You're a mentorto me, you're a friend, of
course, but you have really,really supported me and I wanna
thank you for that.
Dr. Rick Garlick (47:35):
Well, it's truly a pleasure.
I'm glad that life brought ustogether All right.
Well, thank you, and thank youfor listening, and we hope that
you've enjoyed this podcast.
Dr. Pelè (47:48):
Thanks for tuning in to the Profitable Happiness
Podcast.
For more episodes, visitdrpalaiscom.
And remember get happy firstand success will follow.
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