September 26, 2023 • 36 mins
Have you ever wondered about the actual cost of burnout - on personal and organizational levels?
Did you know that your beliefs about stress can significantly alter your experience of it?
Our guest today, Dr. Sharon Grossman, an expert on Burnout, takes us through this invisible crisis, its root causes, and its impacts on productivity, healthcare costs, and workplace culture.
This episode offers fresh perspectives on stress, highlighting its often-overlooked benefit and how it can be leveraged positively.
You can connect with Dr. Sharon Grossman online here:
Website: https://drsharongrossman.com/
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/sharongrossman/
New Book: "The Stress Advantage" — https://amzn.to/3LE9tur
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Dr. Pelè (00:00):
Hello happy people.
Welcome to the ProfitableHappiness Podcast.
Hello everyone, this is Dr.
Pelè with the ProfitableHappiness Podcast, and today I
have with me Dr Sharon.
Now Dr Sharon Grossman is hiredby top Fortune 500 companies
(00:20):
and their executives to focus onburnout in the workplace.
She has a book that is comingout.
We're going to talk all aboutit and I want to know exactly
specifically how do we stop thisbig epidemic called being
burned out.
Dr Sharon, how are you doingtoday?
Dr. Sharon Grossman (00:39):
I'm doing fantastic.
I'm super excited to be hereand thank you for having me.
Dr. Pelè (00:44):
Oh, that's awesome.
That's awesome.
Well, you know, as we sharedwith each other before we
started this conversation, I'mreally interested in
understanding this thing calledbeing burned out, and is this
something that's sort ofinvisible?
Is it happening and peoplearen't aware of it?
I would love to know exactlywhat the challenge is in
(01:04):
organizations around this topicof stress.
Dr. Sharon Grossman (01:07):
Yeah, you know there are so many
challenges and we could talkabout this for days, so I'm
going to give you the condensedversion, and that is that
burnout can be invisible in somepeople, because it's not
something that is either on oroff.
It's not like you have it oryou don't have it.
I like to talk about it fromthe perspective of think of like
(01:31):
a stress burnout continuum.
And we all have stress, butwhen we're talking about stress
related to burnout, we'reactually talking about chronic
stress.
So this is very different fromacute stress.
These are the kinds of thingsthat you're faced with day in
and day out and they really takea toll on you, and so you're
(01:52):
getting a little bit stressedout and you're getting a little
bit more stressed out, and maybethere's an accumulation of
things or maybe it's theaccumulation of that thing over
time, and you're going down thatcontinuum closer and closer to
burnout.
And so there's you know youcould be, quote unquote burned
out light, where you're onlystarting to see some things
(02:12):
happening and you're not evenaware of the fact that you're in
burnout territory.
And that's really why I do theseshows, because I, like I made
it my mission to go out thereand educate people on what to
look out for, because the ideais, the sooner you can catch it,
the sooner you can startimplementing things to hope you
get out of it, so that you don'tcontinue to go further down
(02:35):
that continuum.
You know, and what I found whenI was starting to learn about
burnout and I listened to myclients with a different ear I
started hearing them actually beburned out from the way they
were describing what was goingon without ever using the word,
and so then I would say to themyou know, it sounds like you're
(02:58):
burned out and say, oh yeah,that makes sense, right?
And so I think it's reallyimportant for us to know what it
is so that we can catch it andstart then figuring out what to
do about it.
Dr. Pelè (03:15):
You know it's interesting because when you use
the words burnout, I wonder ifthere are people who wonder what
that impact is.
You know, at the bottom line orthe pocketbook, I've heard of
things like you know, companiesspend about $300 billion
annually on stress managementalone.
You know it's like some crazynumbers.
What are the negative impactsof this concept of being burned
(03:38):
out, both at an individual leveland as at an organization level
?
Dr. Sharon Grossman (03:43):
Well, actually, the $300 billion thing
that you, the statistic thatyou shared, isn't how much
organizations are spending, it'swhat burnout is costing them.
Dr. Pelè (03:53):
Ooh.
Dr. Sharon Grossman (03:55):
Right, and so that is actually one of the
implications.
It's that when we don't havethe right things in place as an
organization, as a company, thisis what is costing us annually
and we're talking global numbers, right, this isn't like one,
obviously not one company ispaying that but it is costing us
in productivity and health carecosts, because you're you know,
(04:19):
burnout also manifests.
It manifests physically,emotionally, mentally, like.
It manifests in a lot ofdifferent ways.
So you have employees who aresuffering, who are struggling,
who are not able to live up totheir full potential because
they're just out of juice, andit's costing you because you're
not just paying their salariesnow, but now they are.
(04:42):
There's more people that haveto take time off to recover.
There are people who show up towork and you know that's what
we call like present T is right,like where they're there but
not there.
Dr. Pelè (04:55):
But not there yeah.
Dr. Sharon Grossman (04:56):
Yeah, it's like lowered morale, like all of
these things that create thistoxic work culture where people
are just kind of getting bythere in survival mode.
They're just there to kind ofshow their face and check the
box, and the truth of the matteris no business is gonna thrive
with that kind of a workplace,right?
So if people are unhappy I knowthis is like about your your
(05:20):
podcast is all about profitablehappiness.
It ties in very well If peopleare unhappy, you're not going to
be profitable Bottom line right.
So so there's huge implicationsfor organizations, but there's
also huge implications for theindividual, and when I wrote my
first book on burnout, it wasreally to this was back in 2018.
(05:42):
So I started doing some researchon the topic and in 2020, I was
just about to publish it andthen COVID happened and I
thought to myself well, no, Ican't publish this book now
because everybody's working fromhome, and my book was for the
employee that's working for acompany and is feeling like
(06:03):
there's all this stuff happeningthat's causing them to feel
this way.
And at that time, when Istarted the research in 2018,
really the only books on burnoutthat were out there were books
that were talking aboutorganizational change, which is
really important.
But we all also know how muchbureaucracy is in these
organizations, how slow they areto make these changes, if at
(06:27):
all.
So I thought to myself well,what if I'm the employee?
I can't sit around and wait forthem to make some sort of a
change.
So I wanted my book to be, forthose people is like what can
you do to empower yourself?
Right, and so that's so Ianyway.
So fast forward, about sixmonths into COVID, everybody was
burned out, like it was the hottopic of COVID, and so I was
(06:50):
like, well, even though you'reworking from home, like you got,
you need this book.
So then I released it and it'scalled the seven e solution to
burnout, and so that reallytakes you through like a whole
process of the kinds of skillsin the mindset that can really
be helpful to you when you'requote unquote stuck in that
burnout place.
Yeah, so there's, burnout canlook like a lot of different
(07:14):
things.
It happens for differentreasons to different people.
We said there's more like lightversions and heavier versions
of it, depending on where youare on the spectrum.
So it's a very complex animaland obviously a lot of
ramifications both for theindividual and companies.
Dr. Pelè (07:31):
Yeah, yeah, no, and you know you mentioned earlier
actually that you made it yourmission to go research, to
combat, to help all around thistopic of burnout and stress in
organizations.
If I may ask you, how and why?
What's your story?
(07:51):
How did you get here?
Dr. Sharon Grossman (07:53):
So it's actually a funny thing because
I'm the only person in my spacewho's got this kind of a story,
because everybody else who I'vemet who is doing this burnout
work is doing so because they'vegone through that hero's
journey where they were burnedout and then they recovered and
now they want to help otherpeople and there's nothing wrong
(08:14):
with that.
I mean, I think that's actuallya beautiful thing, yeah, and
I'm really glad that thosepeople are out there in the
world.
My story is different in thatwhat happened for me was I.
So I was studying psychologyand I was in grad school and I
attended the AmericanPsychological Association's
annual conference one year andthere was a psychologist there
(08:36):
presenting on burnout in privatepractice, right.
So he was talking about how,when you see patient after
patient, you are more likely toburn out because you're also not
working in a team and you'reisolated, et cetera.
And I remember thinking tomyself well, that doesn't apply
to me because you know I'm notgoing into private practice.
(08:57):
So fast forward, I graduatefrom school and I start working
for a nonprofit and I'm therefor a number of years and I kind
of reached a ceiling.
So I get to this point in mycareer, where it was like you're
either going to do the samething forever and probably never
make more money, or the onlyopportunity they had for me was
(09:19):
to go into management and I waslike I didn't go to school for
all these years to like sit inmeetings and talk about data or
whatever, like I want to workwith people, you know.
So I start looking outside forwhere am I going next?
And I realized that what Iwanted did not exist in terms of
a job opportunity, right.
(09:41):
I was very much driven by onevalue, which is lifestyle.
I wanted to have a career, butalso have time for my family and
have time for me, and I didn'twant to be commuting for an hour
and a half in traffic and Ididn't want to go on bridges and
(10:03):
bridges or tunnels and thingslike that.
So I was just like I want mypeople, I want to be able to be
impactful, I want to also thenbe able to cut out and go and
pick up my kids and make dinnerand do all the things that you
do outside of work.
And that's when I was like Igot to start a private practice,
(10:25):
right.
So now it's like years later,but I remembered that session
from the conference and Ithought, okay, well, if I'm
going to do this, I have to doit smarter.
So then I got an office that waswalking distance from my gym
and I scheduled my patients sothat I would see a batch of them
(10:47):
in the morning.
I take a really long break, goto the gym, work out, have lunch
and then see my afternoon batchof patients and then cut out,
go home and deal with like, mypersonal life.
But really so the thing that Ithought was really important is,
when you work all day and youdon't have a scheduled time that
(11:11):
you're going to go exercise ordo whatever it is you need to do
for your own self care, youkind of run out of time, right,
because you're busy taking careof everybody at work and then
you're busy taking care ofeverybody at home and you're
always living in this idea ofwhen I have time, then I'll
exercise, then I'll meditate,then I'll do whatever it is, and
(11:34):
that just like never happens.
Like when do we have extra time?
Like never, right.
So I really just wanted to bakeit into my day and that allowed
me to make sure that I'm on topof my game.
Dr. Pelè (11:49):
Wow, I have to say it is interesting having it in the
middle of the day.
I try to get my exercise in inthe morning, and that's when I'm
most alert, and then I doubleup the exercise with a kind of
thinking not meditation, but athinking process.
So I don't listen to music oranything when I'm out jogging or
walking, I just think.
So that's my style, but anywayit's in the morning.
(12:11):
Is that a good strategy to haveit in the morning, or is it
better in the middle of your day, like you do?
Dr. Sharon Grossman (12:17):
It really just depends on the person and
like in that circumstance itjust kind of like how I did it
then, given what was going on inmy life.
Now I do it in the morning andI think for most people that's
probably the best time, becauseyou've got the most energy in
the morning.
You want your sharpest in themorning, so you want to start
(12:40):
your day being active, gettingall your juice kind of up and
ready, and then dive into yourwork when you're really sharp,
and then in the afternoon youwant to just do the things that
require less of you.
So that's a great time to checkemails and do those things that
don't require a lot ofcreativity and things like that.
(13:03):
So yeah, I think, but as long asyou can do it like some people
do it after work right, yeahthey'll do it after dinner,
they'll go for a long walk orwhatever.
As long as you're doing it andit works for you.
That's great, it's not like along way to do it.
Dr. Pelè (13:17):
Yeah, it's almost.
It's something you have tofigure out as far as what fits
in and works best, but just getit done.
Dr Sharon, if we could go alittle deeper into this topic of
burnout and the ideas of stressin terms of how you help people
and organizations address thesethings.
(13:37):
You know a lot of people wantto learn something, they want to
walk away with something, andyou know, one of the things that
you've shared with me that Ithink is just brilliant is that
the idea that stress is actuallynot the enemy.
Tell us about that perspectiveand then lead us into how you
help us use stress to create theresults we want.
Dr. Sharon Grossman (13:59):
Yeah, the reason I focus on this
particular point is becausenumber one, as we said, it is
stress that when it's chronic,becomes burnout right.
So we have to be able to break,burnout down into a.
Why do we get burned out?
And it's because of stress.
Now, stress in and of itselfisn't the same for everybody.
(14:23):
Stress really has to deal withour perception, right, because
and we know that, because if twodifferent people are in the
exact same situation, one mightbe stressed out and the other
isn't.
So we know, you know, a lot oftimes we say it's like those
external things, it's you know,I've had, I've had people say to
me why should I have to work onmy mindset when it's them?
(14:45):
That's the problem.
It's my job, it's my boss, it'smy industry, it's all the
things that live out there thatI don't have control over.
And I'm here to tell you that,first of all, that is not what's
causing you stress.
It's how you think about thosethings that causes you stress.
But that's that's going evendeeper.
Let's, let's take it one stepback.
(15:05):
So sometimes you noticeyourself being stressed and then
you have a thought about thatand you say to yourself this
isn't good, like stress is goingto kill me, stress is bad for
me, stress is going to make meburned out.
Now that you've listened tothis, right, and here's the
(15:27):
truth.
The truth is that our beliefsabout stress also can make a
difference in our experience.
So when we believe that stressis bad, not only are you
stressed about whatever yourcircumstances, but now you've
got an added layer of stress andessentially is you know the way
(15:50):
we would describe it is you'restressing about being stressed,
right?
So you're adding this extralayer that is only hurting you.
The other side of that is thatstress can actually be a really
good thing and if you can focuson the benefits of stress, then
you can actually leverage stressto your benefit.
(16:14):
So I'll give you an example ofwhat I mean.
We've all had situations wherewe have the unexpected kind of
show up and we are programmed toreally be in certainty.
Like we, our brain does notlike uncertainty.
So when COVID happened, so manypeople freaked out because they
(16:35):
were like I don't know what todo, like this is new.
I was supposed to be, you know,working from a, an office, and
now I'm like at home.
Or you know, my kids aresupposed to be at school and now
I'm supposed to behomeschooling them, right, like
everything changed.
Dr. Pelè (16:52):
Yeah.
Dr. Sharon Grossman (16:54):
And I had.
At the time I was still in mytherapy practice and I had
patients who some of them weretotally anxious, totally freaked
out.
And then I had other peoplewhere I saw how they were
looking at this as anopportunity and they exploded
(17:15):
their business or they started anew business and they, you know
, they did.
I mean you see all these peoplewho were like on Etsy making
masks.
Dr. Pelè (17:23):
Yeah.
Dr. Sharon Grossman (17:24):
They didn't know they were going to end up
doing that, but what happenedwas they saw an opportunity and
they ran with it, right.
And the people that werefreaking out and stressing out
because things were differentthan they had normally been used
to, those were the people that,if they don't figure it out and
(17:48):
sometimes it just takes us alittle, it takes us a minute
right.
It's like what is happening,this discombobulated, and
sometimes we just need thatminute to kind of get reoriented
.
But when you can't adapt andthat's true for business as well
, we saw that with you know thefamous example is like with
Blockbuster and Netflix and like, right, if you cannot adapt to
(18:12):
the new situation, to the future, then you're going to get left
behind.
Dr. Pelè (18:16):
Yeah.
Dr. Sharon Grossman (18:17):
You know, as opposed to the people who ran
with the situation and they sawit as an opportunity.
They were making money handover fist, right, they were like
a whole other revenue streamall of a sudden, because I'm
like making masks for people orwhatever.
Yeah, I mean that's just asmall example, but I mean I saw
(18:39):
all kinds of examples like thatduring COVID.
I was getting emails fromplumbers and they were like you
know, even though you're not inthe office, like, you still have
a toilet, do you need a plumber?
Right, they recognized thatcertain services were going to
be just as relevant and that weneeded reminding that you're at
(19:03):
home now.
Maybe you're using your toiletmore than you normally would
because you're out all day.
If you have a problem with yourtoilet, don't worry, we're here
to take care of it.
I mean another small example,right, but I mean there's so
many situations like that.
I'm sure everyone here who'slistening can figure out a
situation that's happened whereit was completely out of the
(19:25):
blue, unexpected, and maybesomething's going on right now
in your life where there's ahealth scare, where you're
worried about the security ofyour job, whatever it is right.
You know, I've had clients whohave had children born with
disabilities, or they've losttheir babies and they're dealing
with the stress of thatsituation.
(19:46):
I mean, there are so manythings.
Life is full of surprises, lifeis full of ups and downs, and
some of those things are reallyheavy.
Right, it's our job to figureout how to manage our brain,
because that's what's going tocreate that added layer of
stress.
And if we are really stressed,then how do we talk to ourselves
(20:09):
about that?
What do we think about?
That is also really important,and so I want you to think about
whatever's going on in yourlife right now and you're seeing
it as a threat, maybe becauseyou feel like you don't have
control over it maybe becauseit's the unexpected, maybe
something that you wouldn't haveasked for.
How can you see that as achallenge?
(20:29):
How can you rise to theoccasion?
Because think about how manythings have happened to you in
your life that you would havenever asked for and yet, when
you look back, it's made you theperson you are today, and you
wouldn't change it for the world.
Dr. Pelè (20:48):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, you know, you know it's interesting.
I like the your use of the wordchallenge, because challenge
actually could have twodifferent meanings it could be a
problem or it could be achallenge to solve a problem.
An opportunity, yeah, anopportunity, rather.
Yes.
I remember when someone saidnever call things problems, only
call them challenges, becausethat's how you leverage them for
(21:11):
the better.
How would you apply some ofyour research and the things
you've written about in yourbook, the 7E solution, and in
the upcoming book that you'reworking on, to organizations?
So, let's say, I'm a leader atan organization, I have a team
of people and of course you knowwe're all experiencing burnout.
Are there things from theperspective of a leader that you
(21:33):
might advise?
Maybe the 7E solution, one, two, three, four, five, six, seven,
I don't know.
Dr. Sharon Grossman (21:39):
Well, you know, even I think one of the
biggest problems is we, as youdid.
You know you talk about how canleaders help with people who
are in their teams and they'reburned out.
What we're sometimes forgettingis that even those leaders
burnout, so we have to start atthe top.
(22:02):
We have to start at the top,with the leaders and say if
you're burned out, we got tohelp you figure out how to
manage your own stress, how toget out of this place of burnout
.
What is missing for you?
Why are you here in the firstplace?
If you can learn the skills andthe mindsets that are required
(22:22):
for you to show up to work andnot feel this way and instead be
like totally in your power,then we can talk about
management skills and leadershipskills and how that can trickle
down into the people thatyou're leading.
If you don't know how to manageyour own stress, how are you
going to lead the people on yourteam and help them manage their
(22:46):
stress?
That's pretty well impossible.
It's just it's really hard toteach somebody something you
don't even know, and we alsolead through role modeling.
So if you're not dealing withyour stress very well, without
even saying a word to your team,you are showing them that
(23:07):
you're stressed out, that you'remaybe behind on schedule, that
maybe you're yelling at them,maybe you're impatient, maybe
there's all these things thatyou wouldn't be showing up in
this way if you were managingyourself better.
So I think it starts withhelping these leaders.
This is why I work with a lotof executives, because I feel
(23:30):
like it's important to start atthe top, help them get to the
other side and when they do,there's so much less internal
pressure.
Like I said, a lot of times,when we think about burnout, we
think about all those thingsthat are out there and like how
do you expect me to not feelthis way when I've got these
(23:51):
deadlines and all thisresponsibility and all these
people I'm supposed to manage?
We can easily fall into thattrap and while it's true that
there are always going to bethings that are outside of your
control, what is also true isthat when you learn to handle
situations by I mean, this couldbe the way that you think about
(24:12):
things, so that's yourperception.
It could be about whetheryou're you know, if you're a
perfectionist letting go of thatand allowing delegation to
happen so that you don't have asmuch on your plate, that
there's so many things that comeinto play that you do have
control over, and that when westart to tap into those, you're
going to see how much of adifference it makes, even in the
(24:36):
face of those circumstancesthat are outside of your control
.
So we're never going to have100% control of the things that
are going on around us, but wehave so much impact when we are
in control of our minds and areable to show up more powerfully
and then not be kind of takendown by those external things
(24:59):
that we can't control.
Dr. Pelè (25:02):
I think, just the idea that a leader could sit down on
her chair and, for once, say,hey, I got this gift.
This gift is called stress andI'm going to use this gift to
change everything in ourorganization for the better.
I think that's a great startingpoint.
I love that, dr Sharon, if wecould switch topics a little bit
(25:24):
and focus on the idea ofhappiness, the idea of what I
like to call profitablehappiness, which is not just the
regular rah, rah, pleasureseeking happiness, but rather
the kind of happiness that leadsto deeper engagement and people
really finding meaning in theirwork.
How does stress sort of alignwith that, or maybe not align
(25:48):
with that?
What's the relationship betweenyour work and happy employees
producing profitable companies?
Dr. Sharon Grossman (25:55):
Yeah, it's a really excellent question and
I think it's one that companiesshould be thinking about.
I know a lot of times when Italk about these concepts, I
hear people say, well, nobodycares, like what companies
really care about is theirbottom line, which might be true
, but you can't get there,Unfortunately, by the way.
(26:16):
Yes, Well it's kind of like evenif that's true, then you have
to reverse engineer it.
And you're like so how do I getto profitability Right, which
is really where a lot of yourwork comes in too.
It's like well, you've got tohave happy employees.
Okay, let's reverse engineerthat.
How do we get happy employees?
(26:37):
And it's all the things thatare the opposite of what leads
to burned out employees, okay.
So a really simple thing thatdoesn't cost anything but can
make such an impact and such adifference in your employee's
well-being and their engagementlevel, which then translates
into productivity, whichtranslates into your bottom line
(26:59):
, is how appreciated orrecognized or acknowledged they
feel in the workplace.
So, if you are a manager,sometimes all it takes is
sending an email and sayinggreat job.
Everybody Like you know you gotthe stuff done on time.
I know it was tough, but youall pulled your weight and I'm
(27:21):
so proud.
Sometimes, just like a smallthing like that is huge, because
you don't know the impact yourwords have on your employees.
You don't know what it's liketo work so hard and, at the end
of the day, crickets.
Because you're like really andit's not just the crickets, it's
(27:45):
also that you feel like as soonas you finish the thing that
you've been working on so hard,they then come and say to you
well, don't just stand around,go do 12 other things right.
And then you feel like they'rejust milking you as much as they
can.
Because again, you've got peoplewho are or companies, rather
that have that short-sightednessabout their company culture.
(28:09):
They don't have that culturalforesight that is needed.
They need to think about how doI have a sustainable workplace
culture, or what I like to callan irresistible workplace, right
?
So how do you create thatirresistible workplace?
It's by creating the kind ofculture that takes care of your
(28:31):
employees, that leads them tothat place of happiness, of
contentness, where they're, like, so excited to work for you
because they feel taken care of,because they feel cared about.
And again, it can be littlethings.
It can be little things, like Iknow, sometimes in some
companies, especially like thesuper, you know, like the
Fortune 500, you know we talkabout bonuses at the end of the
(28:54):
year.
Dr. Pelè (28:55):
Yep.
Dr. Sharon Grossman (28:56):
And while I think it's nice that we get
bonuses, I also think that itbecomes and I'm going to give
you a little analogy which Ithink is actually really funny
it becomes something that theyexpect, and I've had, I've had
clients who expect the bonus andthen they maybe don't get as
much as they thought they weregoing to get.
So now they're stressing aboutthe bonus, which is kind of like
(29:19):
ridiculous, right?
But I'll give you an example.
So my son just lost his toothand he was like so what are you
going to give me?
Right?
And it's like he's alreadyexpecting it because he knows at
this point you know hopefullythere's no children listening
we're not going to spoil it.
But spoiler alert, there's notooth fairy.
So while he was little, youknow, he didn't know.
(29:43):
So he would wake up and there'dbe something and be like oh my
God, the tooth fairy left that.
Right now that he's older andhe knows that there's no such
thing, the expectation is there.
Yeah.
And number one it takes a lot ofthe excitement out of the
process for me, like it takesthe magic out of it, because now
not only is he expecting it,but he's now asking his friends
(30:06):
what do you get?
And then you're like, and thenhe's like well, you only gave me
$5 and my friends get like $100or whatever you know.
And I'm like who gives theirkid $100?
And I was like, why wouldyou're 10, you know?
And I thought like that wasreally cool.
Like I gave him five bucks,like whatever.
(30:27):
So it's like now not only isthat expectation there, but he
can't appreciate whatever I givehim, because now he's doing the
comparison thing, which is kindof like the person saying well,
last year I got this much formy bonus or my colleague got
that much for their bonus and Ionly got this.
So now you're getting thisextra thing which is supposed to
be like an appreciation token,and it's become this thing that
(30:51):
you're really negative about.
I just you know.
So we have to find other otherways, ways that are unexpected,
ways that show us continuousliving, not through monetary
means per se, that you didn'tforget about us as employees,
that you care, that you're,you're recognizing us, because,
(31:13):
at the end of the day, what weall want is to be heard, to be
seen and to be understood.
And so if you can show me thatyou see how hard I work, you
appreciate the effort that I'mputting in.
You're not there to scold meabout maybe I had to take time
off because I had to go take mykid to the doctor, or you know,
(31:36):
like you're not letting thelittle things get in the way but
you're looking at the bigpicture and you're having this
more comprehensive approach tome as a human, not as a robot
Then I'm going to love workingfor you and it's really, at the
end of the day, it's about thatrelationship.
So if I feel connected to youand I'm like my manager has my
(31:56):
back, yeah Then that's where theloyalty comes in.
And if I'm loyal to you, I willdo everything to make sure that
this company is profitable.
I will make sure that I do mybest work because I care about
what this company stands for,because that manager maybe not
(32:20):
isn't like the founder of thatcompany but, they're
representative of that company.
Dr. Pelè (32:28):
Yeah, no, you will not believe.
You've pretty much written mywhole book and my software and
all the things that I've workedon right there and that little
explanation so powerful, and Iappreciate that link.
I think you said it earlier Allthe things that can help you
alleviate stress are actuallythe same things that can help
(32:48):
you grow your sense ofsatisfaction and happiness, and
it's really two sizes the samecoin, dr Sharon.
What are you working on rightnow?
What are you excited about?
I know that you've got a bookcoming out.
Tell us about that and tell ushow we can connect with you on
social media to learn more.
Dr. Sharon Grossman (33:07):
Happy to.
So you know, when I wrote myburnout book, it's really like a
manifesto.
It's like 400 plus pages,because I put everything that I
ever taught any of my clients,and then some from like 20 years
of experience, into that book.
So I just poured it all in.
But I also realized that it wasa little much for people.
(33:30):
It's like no one's going to sitthere and read and it's like a
media.
So I decided to do the exactopposite for this next book, and
this book is about how stresscan be leveraged as a positive,
and so I created about theshortest book you can find on
the subject, because I wantedpeople to be able to grasp these
(33:52):
concepts as quickly as possibleand be able to run with them,
and so it's called the stressadvantage lessons from the
tennis court.
And what I did there, which isreally fun, is when I was taking
tennis lessons, I took notesabout what my coach would say
and I would say you know, youcould totally spin this and
think about how this applies tothe workplace, and so I decided
to take my notes and create thisstory that you can consume.
(34:16):
It's, again, very short, youcould do it in one sitting, and
so that you can find on Amazon.
By the time this episodelaunches, it should be up so.
So that's what I've beenworking on and I'm super excited
about that and sharing that.
And where you can find me?
I'm most active on LinkedIn, soif you go to LinkedIn, you can
(34:37):
find me there under SharonGrossman.
I am the burnout doc, andreally all the other goodies
that I have for you are on mywebsite, which is
DrSharanGrossmancom.
We've got a lot of freebiethings related to burnout.
So if you're thinking about,well, am I burned out?
(34:57):
You know what do I do?
I've got a burnout checklistyou can download for free.
I've got a weekly newsletterthat I share every everything
new that I've done for the week.
You know I have a blog and thepodcast episodes.
By the way, my podcast isDecode your Burnout and we're
going to have Dr Pallee on theresoon, so check that out as well
(35:20):
.
So, yeah, for all the thingsthat I do speaking training it's
all on the websiteDrSharanGrossmancom.
Dr. Pelè (35:30):
Awesome, and once you get your new book back from the
publishers or from Amazon,please send us a link and we
will have that included in theshow notes for this episode.
Drsharan, it has been apleasure learning from you and
getting to know you.
Thank you so much for being aguest on the Profitable
Happiness Podcast.
Dr. Sharon Grossman (35:48):
Thank you so much for having me.
It's been amazing.
Dr. Pelè (35:52):
Thanks for tuning in to the Profitable Happiness
Podcast.
For more episodes, visitDrPalleecom.
And remember get happy firstand success will follow.
Hello happy people.
Welcome to the ProfitableHappiness Podcast.
Hello everyone, this is Dr.
Pelè with the ProfitableHappiness Podcast, and today I
have with me Dr Sharon.
Now Dr Sharon Grossman is hiredby top Fortune 500 companies
(00:20):
and their executives to focus onburnout in the workplace.
She has a book that is comingout.
We're going to talk all aboutit and I want to know exactly
specifically how do we stop thisbig epidemic called being
burned out.
Dr Sharon, how are you doingtoday?
Dr. Sharon Grossman (00:39):
I'm doing fantastic.
I'm super excited to be hereand thank you for having me.
Dr. Pelè (00:44):
Oh, that's awesome.
That's awesome.
Well, you know, as we sharedwith each other before we
started this conversation, I'mreally interested in
understanding this thing calledbeing burned out, and is this
something that's sort ofinvisible?
Is it happening and peoplearen't aware of it?
I would love to know exactlywhat the challenge is in
(01:04):
organizations around this topicof stress.
Dr. Sharon Grossman (01:07):
Yeah, you know there are so many
challenges and we could talkabout this for days, so I'm
going to give you the condensedversion, and that is that
burnout can be invisible in somepeople, because it's not
something that is either on oroff.
It's not like you have it oryou don't have it.
I like to talk about it fromthe perspective of think of like
(01:31):
a stress burnout continuum.
And we all have stress, butwhen we're talking about stress
related to burnout, we'reactually talking about chronic
stress.
So this is very different fromacute stress.
These are the kinds of thingsthat you're faced with day in
and day out and they really takea toll on you, and so you're
(01:52):
getting a little bit stressedout and you're getting a little
bit more stressed out, and maybethere's an accumulation of
things or maybe it's theaccumulation of that thing over
time, and you're going down thatcontinuum closer and closer to
burnout.
And so there's you know youcould be, quote unquote burned
out light, where you're onlystarting to see some things
(02:12):
happening and you're not evenaware of the fact that you're in
burnout territory.
And that's really why I do theseshows, because I, like I made
it my mission to go out thereand educate people on what to
look out for, because the ideais, the sooner you can catch it,
the sooner you can startimplementing things to hope you
get out of it, so that you don'tcontinue to go further down
(02:35):
that continuum.
You know, and what I found whenI was starting to learn about
burnout and I listened to myclients with a different ear I
started hearing them actually beburned out from the way they
were describing what was goingon without ever using the word,
and so then I would say to themyou know, it sounds like you're
(02:58):
burned out and say, oh yeah,that makes sense, right?
And so I think it's reallyimportant for us to know what it
is so that we can catch it andstart then figuring out what to
do about it.
Dr. Pelè (03:15):
You know it's interesting because when you use
the words burnout, I wonder ifthere are people who wonder what
that impact is.
You know, at the bottom line orthe pocketbook, I've heard of
things like you know, companiesspend about $300 billion
annually on stress managementalone.
You know it's like some crazynumbers.
What are the negative impactsof this concept of being burned
(03:38):
out, both at an individual leveland as at an organization level
?
Dr. Sharon Grossman (03:43):
Well, actually, the $300 billion thing
that you, the statistic thatyou shared, isn't how much
organizations are spending, it'swhat burnout is costing them.
Dr. Pelè (03:53):
Ooh.
Dr. Sharon Grossman (03:55):
Right, and so that is actually one of the
implications.
It's that when we don't havethe right things in place as an
organization, as a company, thisis what is costing us annually
and we're talking global numbers, right, this isn't like one,
obviously not one company ispaying that but it is costing us
in productivity and health carecosts, because you're you know,
(04:19):
burnout also manifests.
It manifests physically,emotionally, mentally, like.
It manifests in a lot ofdifferent ways.
So you have employees who aresuffering, who are struggling,
who are not able to live up totheir full potential because
they're just out of juice, andit's costing you because you're
not just paying their salariesnow, but now they are.
(04:42):
There's more people that haveto take time off to recover.
There are people who show up towork and you know that's what
we call like present T is right,like where they're there but
not there.
Dr. Pelè (04:55):
But not there yeah.
Dr. Sharon Grossman (04:56):
Yeah, it's like lowered morale, like all of
these things that create thistoxic work culture where people
are just kind of getting bythere in survival mode.
They're just there to kind ofshow their face and check the
box, and the truth of the matteris no business is gonna thrive
with that kind of a workplace,right?
So if people are unhappy I knowthis is like about your your
(05:20):
podcast is all about profitablehappiness.
It ties in very well If peopleare unhappy, you're not going to
be profitable Bottom line right.
So so there's huge implicationsfor organizations, but there's
also huge implications for theindividual, and when I wrote my
first book on burnout, it wasreally to this was back in 2018.
(05:42):
So I started doing some researchon the topic and in 2020, I was
just about to publish it andthen COVID happened and I
thought to myself well, no, Ican't publish this book now
because everybody's working fromhome, and my book was for the
employee that's working for acompany and is feeling like
(06:03):
there's all this stuff happeningthat's causing them to feel
this way.
And at that time, when Istarted the research in 2018,
really the only books on burnoutthat were out there were books
that were talking aboutorganizational change, which is
really important.
But we all also know how muchbureaucracy is in these
organizations, how slow they areto make these changes, if at
(06:27):
all.
So I thought to myself well,what if I'm the employee?
I can't sit around and wait forthem to make some sort of a
change.
So I wanted my book to be, forthose people is like what can
you do to empower yourself?
Right, and so that's so Ianyway.
So fast forward, about sixmonths into COVID, everybody was
burned out, like it was the hottopic of COVID, and so I was
(06:50):
like, well, even though you'reworking from home, like you got,
you need this book.
So then I released it and it'scalled the seven e solution to
burnout, and so that reallytakes you through like a whole
process of the kinds of skillsin the mindset that can really
be helpful to you when you'requote unquote stuck in that
burnout place.
Yeah, so there's, burnout canlook like a lot of different
(07:14):
things.
It happens for differentreasons to different people.
We said there's more like lightversions and heavier versions
of it, depending on where youare on the spectrum.
So it's a very complex animaland obviously a lot of
ramifications both for theindividual and companies.
Dr. Pelè (07:31):
Yeah, yeah, no, and you know you mentioned earlier
actually that you made it yourmission to go research, to
combat, to help all around thistopic of burnout and stress in
organizations.
If I may ask you, how and why?
What's your story?
(07:51):
How did you get here?
Dr. Sharon Grossman (07:53):
So it's actually a funny thing because
I'm the only person in my spacewho's got this kind of a story,
because everybody else who I'vemet who is doing this burnout
work is doing so because they'vegone through that hero's
journey where they were burnedout and then they recovered and
now they want to help otherpeople and there's nothing wrong
(08:14):
with that.
I mean, I think that's actuallya beautiful thing, yeah, and
I'm really glad that thosepeople are out there in the
world.
My story is different in thatwhat happened for me was I.
So I was studying psychologyand I was in grad school and I
attended the AmericanPsychological Association's
annual conference one year andthere was a psychologist there
(08:36):
presenting on burnout in privatepractice, right.
So he was talking about how,when you see patient after
patient, you are more likely toburn out because you're also not
working in a team and you'reisolated, et cetera.
And I remember thinking tomyself well, that doesn't apply
to me because you know I'm notgoing into private practice.
(08:57):
So fast forward, I graduatefrom school and I start working
for a nonprofit and I'm therefor a number of years and I kind
of reached a ceiling.
So I get to this point in mycareer, where it was like you're
either going to do the samething forever and probably never
make more money, or the onlyopportunity they had for me was
(09:19):
to go into management and I waslike I didn't go to school for
all these years to like sit inmeetings and talk about data or
whatever, like I want to workwith people, you know.
So I start looking outside forwhere am I going next?
And I realized that what Iwanted did not exist in terms of
a job opportunity, right.
(09:41):
I was very much driven by onevalue, which is lifestyle.
I wanted to have a career, butalso have time for my family and
have time for me, and I didn'twant to be commuting for an hour
and a half in traffic and Ididn't want to go on bridges and
(10:03):
bridges or tunnels and thingslike that.
So I was just like I want mypeople, I want to be able to be
impactful, I want to also thenbe able to cut out and go and
pick up my kids and make dinnerand do all the things that you
do outside of work.
And that's when I was like Igot to start a private practice,
(10:25):
right.
So now it's like years later,but I remembered that session
from the conference and Ithought, okay, well, if I'm
going to do this, I have to doit smarter.
So then I got an office that waswalking distance from my gym
and I scheduled my patients sothat I would see a batch of them
(10:47):
in the morning.
I take a really long break, goto the gym, work out, have lunch
and then see my afternoon batchof patients and then cut out,
go home and deal with like, mypersonal life.
But really so the thing that Ithought was really important is,
when you work all day and youdon't have a scheduled time that
(11:11):
you're going to go exercise ordo whatever it is you need to do
for your own self care, youkind of run out of time, right,
because you're busy taking careof everybody at work and then
you're busy taking care ofeverybody at home and you're
always living in this idea ofwhen I have time, then I'll
exercise, then I'll meditate,then I'll do whatever it is, and
(11:34):
that just like never happens.
Like when do we have extra time?
Like never, right.
So I really just wanted to bakeit into my day and that allowed
me to make sure that I'm on topof my game.
Dr. Pelè (11:49):
Wow, I have to say it is interesting having it in the
middle of the day.
I try to get my exercise in inthe morning, and that's when I'm
most alert, and then I doubleup the exercise with a kind of
thinking not meditation, but athinking process.
So I don't listen to music oranything when I'm out jogging or
walking, I just think.
So that's my style, but anywayit's in the morning.
(12:11):
Is that a good strategy to haveit in the morning, or is it
better in the middle of your day, like you do?
Dr. Sharon Grossman (12:17):
It really just depends on the person and
like in that circumstance itjust kind of like how I did it
then, given what was going on inmy life.
Now I do it in the morning andI think for most people that's
probably the best time, becauseyou've got the most energy in
the morning.
You want your sharpest in themorning, so you want to start
(12:40):
your day being active, gettingall your juice kind of up and
ready, and then dive into yourwork when you're really sharp,
and then in the afternoon youwant to just do the things that
require less of you.
So that's a great time to checkemails and do those things that
don't require a lot ofcreativity and things like that.
(13:03):
So yeah, I think, but as long asyou can do it like some people
do it after work right, yeahthey'll do it after dinner,
they'll go for a long walk orwhatever.
As long as you're doing it andit works for you.
That's great, it's not like along way to do it.
Dr. Pelè (13:17):
Yeah, it's almost.
It's something you have tofigure out as far as what fits
in and works best, but just getit done.
Dr Sharon, if we could go alittle deeper into this topic of
burnout and the ideas of stressin terms of how you help people
and organizations address thesethings.
(13:37):
You know a lot of people wantto learn something, they want to
walk away with something, andyou know, one of the things that
you've shared with me that Ithink is just brilliant is that
the idea that stress is actuallynot the enemy.
Tell us about that perspectiveand then lead us into how you
help us use stress to create theresults we want.
Dr. Sharon Grossman (13:59):
Yeah, the reason I focus on this
particular point is becausenumber one, as we said, it is
stress that when it's chronic,becomes burnout right.
So we have to be able to break,burnout down into a.
Why do we get burned out?
And it's because of stress.
Now, stress in and of itselfisn't the same for everybody.
(14:23):
Stress really has to deal withour perception, right, because
and we know that, because if twodifferent people are in the
exact same situation, one mightbe stressed out and the other
isn't.
So we know, you know, a lot oftimes we say it's like those
external things, it's you know,I've had, I've had people say to
me why should I have to work onmy mindset when it's them?
(14:45):
That's the problem.
It's my job, it's my boss, it'smy industry, it's all the
things that live out there thatI don't have control over.
And I'm here to tell you that,first of all, that is not what's
causing you stress.
It's how you think about thosethings that causes you stress.
But that's that's going evendeeper.
Let's, let's take it one stepback.
(15:05):
So sometimes you noticeyourself being stressed and then
you have a thought about thatand you say to yourself this
isn't good, like stress is goingto kill me, stress is bad for
me, stress is going to make meburned out.
Now that you've listened tothis, right, and here's the
(15:27):
truth.
The truth is that our beliefsabout stress also can make a
difference in our experience.
So when we believe that stressis bad, not only are you
stressed about whatever yourcircumstances, but now you've
got an added layer of stress andessentially is you know the way
(15:50):
we would describe it is you'restressing about being stressed,
right?
So you're adding this extralayer that is only hurting you.
The other side of that is thatstress can actually be a really
good thing and if you can focuson the benefits of stress, then
you can actually leverage stressto your benefit.
(16:14):
So I'll give you an example ofwhat I mean.
We've all had situations wherewe have the unexpected kind of
show up and we are programmed toreally be in certainty.
Like we, our brain does notlike uncertainty.
So when COVID happened, so manypeople freaked out because they
(16:35):
were like I don't know what todo, like this is new.
I was supposed to be, you know,working from a, an office, and
now I'm like at home.
Or you know, my kids aresupposed to be at school and now
I'm supposed to behomeschooling them, right, like
everything changed.
Dr. Pelè (16:52):
Yeah.
Dr. Sharon Grossman (16:54):
And I had.
At the time I was still in mytherapy practice and I had
patients who some of them weretotally anxious, totally freaked
out.
And then I had other peoplewhere I saw how they were
looking at this as anopportunity and they exploded
(17:15):
their business or they started anew business and they, you know
, they did.
I mean you see all these peoplewho were like on Etsy making
masks.
Dr. Pelè (17:23):
Yeah.
Dr. Sharon Grossman (17:24):
They didn't know they were going to end up
doing that, but what happenedwas they saw an opportunity and
they ran with it, right.
And the people that werefreaking out and stressing out
because things were differentthan they had normally been used
to, those were the people that,if they don't figure it out and
(17:48):
sometimes it just takes us alittle, it takes us a minute
right.
It's like what is happening,this discombobulated, and
sometimes we just need thatminute to kind of get reoriented
.
But when you can't adapt andthat's true for business as well
, we saw that with you know thefamous example is like with
Blockbuster and Netflix and like, right, if you cannot adapt to
(18:12):
the new situation, to the future, then you're going to get left
behind.
Dr. Pelè (18:16):
Yeah.
Dr. Sharon Grossman (18:17):
You know, as opposed to the people who ran
with the situation and they sawit as an opportunity.
They were making money handover fist, right, they were like
a whole other revenue streamall of a sudden, because I'm
like making masks for people orwhatever.
Yeah, I mean that's just asmall example, but I mean I saw
(18:39):
all kinds of examples like thatduring COVID.
I was getting emails fromplumbers and they were like you
know, even though you're not inthe office, like, you still have
a toilet, do you need a plumber?
Right, they recognized thatcertain services were going to
be just as relevant and that weneeded reminding that you're at
(19:03):
home now.
Maybe you're using your toiletmore than you normally would
because you're out all day.
If you have a problem with yourtoilet, don't worry, we're here
to take care of it.
I mean another small example,right, but I mean there's so
many situations like that.
I'm sure everyone here who'slistening can figure out a
situation that's happened whereit was completely out of the
(19:25):
blue, unexpected, and maybesomething's going on right now
in your life where there's ahealth scare, where you're
worried about the security ofyour job, whatever it is right.
You know, I've had clients whohave had children born with
disabilities, or they've losttheir babies and they're dealing
with the stress of thatsituation.
(19:46):
I mean, there are so manythings.
Life is full of surprises, lifeis full of ups and downs, and
some of those things are reallyheavy.
Right, it's our job to figureout how to manage our brain,
because that's what's going tocreate that added layer of
stress.
And if we are really stressed,then how do we talk to ourselves
(20:09):
about that?
What do we think about?
That is also really important,and so I want you to think about
whatever's going on in yourlife right now and you're seeing
it as a threat, maybe becauseyou feel like you don't have
control over it maybe becauseit's the unexpected, maybe
something that you wouldn't haveasked for.
How can you see that as achallenge?
(20:29):
How can you rise to theoccasion?
Because think about how manythings have happened to you in
your life that you would havenever asked for and yet, when
you look back, it's made you theperson you are today, and you
wouldn't change it for the world.
Dr. Pelè (20:48):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, you know, you know it's interesting.
I like the your use of the wordchallenge, because challenge
actually could have twodifferent meanings it could be a
problem or it could be achallenge to solve a problem.
An opportunity, yeah, anopportunity, rather.
Yes.
I remember when someone saidnever call things problems, only
call them challenges, becausethat's how you leverage them for
(21:11):
the better.
How would you apply some ofyour research and the things
you've written about in yourbook, the 7E solution, and in
the upcoming book that you'reworking on, to organizations?
So, let's say, I'm a leader atan organization, I have a team
of people and of course you knowwe're all experiencing burnout.
Are there things from theperspective of a leader that you
(21:33):
might advise?
Maybe the 7E solution, one, two, three, four, five, six, seven,
I don't know.
Dr. Sharon Grossman (21:39):
Well, you know, even I think one of the
biggest problems is we, as youdid.
You know you talk about how canleaders help with people who
are in their teams and they'reburned out.
What we're sometimes forgettingis that even those leaders
burnout, so we have to start atthe top.
(22:02):
We have to start at the top,with the leaders and say if
you're burned out, we got tohelp you figure out how to
manage your own stress, how toget out of this place of burnout
.
What is missing for you?
Why are you here in the firstplace?
If you can learn the skills andthe mindsets that are required
(22:22):
for you to show up to work andnot feel this way and instead be
like totally in your power,then we can talk about
management skills and leadershipskills and how that can trickle
down into the people thatyou're leading.
If you don't know how to manageyour own stress, how are you
going to lead the people on yourteam and help them manage their
(22:46):
stress?
That's pretty well impossible.
It's just it's really hard toteach somebody something you
don't even know, and we alsolead through role modeling.
So if you're not dealing withyour stress very well, without
even saying a word to your team,you are showing them that
(23:07):
you're stressed out, that you'remaybe behind on schedule, that
maybe you're yelling at them,maybe you're impatient, maybe
there's all these things thatyou wouldn't be showing up in
this way if you were managingyourself better.
So I think it starts withhelping these leaders.
This is why I work with a lotof executives, because I feel
(23:30):
like it's important to start atthe top, help them get to the
other side and when they do,there's so much less internal
pressure.
Like I said, a lot of times,when we think about burnout, we
think about all those thingsthat are out there and like how
do you expect me to not feelthis way when I've got these
(23:51):
deadlines and all thisresponsibility and all these
people I'm supposed to manage?
We can easily fall into thattrap and while it's true that
there are always going to bethings that are outside of your
control, what is also true isthat when you learn to handle
situations by I mean, this couldbe the way that you think about
(24:12):
things, so that's yourperception.
It could be about whetheryou're you know, if you're a
perfectionist letting go of thatand allowing delegation to
happen so that you don't have asmuch on your plate, that
there's so many things that comeinto play that you do have
control over, and that when westart to tap into those, you're
going to see how much of adifference it makes, even in the
(24:36):
face of those circumstancesthat are outside of your control
.
So we're never going to have100% control of the things that
are going on around us, but wehave so much impact when we are
in control of our minds and areable to show up more powerfully
and then not be kind of takendown by those external things
(24:59):
that we can't control.
Dr. Pelè (25:02):
I think, just the idea that a leader could sit down on
her chair and, for once, say,hey, I got this gift.
This gift is called stress andI'm going to use this gift to
change everything in ourorganization for the better.
I think that's a great startingpoint.
I love that, dr Sharon, if wecould switch topics a little bit
(25:24):
and focus on the idea ofhappiness, the idea of what I
like to call profitablehappiness, which is not just the
regular rah, rah, pleasureseeking happiness, but rather
the kind of happiness that leadsto deeper engagement and people
really finding meaning in theirwork.
How does stress sort of alignwith that, or maybe not align
(25:48):
with that?
What's the relationship betweenyour work and happy employees
producing profitable companies?
Dr. Sharon Grossman (25:55):
Yeah, it's a really excellent question and
I think it's one that companiesshould be thinking about.
I know a lot of times when Italk about these concepts, I
hear people say, well, nobodycares, like what companies
really care about is theirbottom line, which might be true
, but you can't get there,Unfortunately, by the way.
(26:16):
Yes, Well it's kind of like evenif that's true, then you have
to reverse engineer it.
And you're like so how do I getto profitability Right, which
is really where a lot of yourwork comes in too.
It's like well, you've got tohave happy employees.
Okay, let's reverse engineerthat.
How do we get happy employees?
(26:37):
And it's all the things thatare the opposite of what leads
to burned out employees, okay.
So a really simple thing thatdoesn't cost anything but can
make such an impact and such adifference in your employee's
well-being and their engagementlevel, which then translates
into productivity, whichtranslates into your bottom line
(26:59):
, is how appreciated orrecognized or acknowledged they
feel in the workplace.
So, if you are a manager,sometimes all it takes is
sending an email and sayinggreat job.
Everybody Like you know you gotthe stuff done on time.
I know it was tough, but youall pulled your weight and I'm
(27:21):
so proud.
Sometimes, just like a smallthing like that is huge, because
you don't know the impact yourwords have on your employees.
You don't know what it's liketo work so hard and, at the end
of the day, crickets.
Because you're like really andit's not just the crickets, it's
(27:45):
also that you feel like as soonas you finish the thing that
you've been working on so hard,they then come and say to you
well, don't just stand around,go do 12 other things right.
And then you feel like they'rejust milking you as much as they
can.
Because again, you've got peoplewho are or companies, rather
that have that short-sightednessabout their company culture.
(28:09):
They don't have that culturalforesight that is needed.
They need to think about how doI have a sustainable workplace
culture, or what I like to callan irresistible workplace, right
?
So how do you create thatirresistible workplace?
It's by creating the kind ofculture that takes care of your
(28:31):
employees, that leads them tothat place of happiness, of
contentness, where they're, like, so excited to work for you
because they feel taken care of,because they feel cared about.
And again, it can be littlethings.
It can be little things, like Iknow, sometimes in some
companies, especially like thesuper, you know, like the
Fortune 500, you know we talkabout bonuses at the end of the
(28:54):
year.
Dr. Pelè (28:55):
Yep.
Dr. Sharon Grossman (28:56):
And while I think it's nice that we get
bonuses, I also think that itbecomes and I'm going to give
you a little analogy which Ithink is actually really funny
it becomes something that theyexpect, and I've had, I've had
clients who expect the bonus andthen they maybe don't get as
much as they thought they weregoing to get.
So now they're stressing aboutthe bonus, which is kind of like
(29:19):
ridiculous, right?
But I'll give you an example.
So my son just lost his toothand he was like so what are you
going to give me?
Right?
And it's like he's alreadyexpecting it because he knows at
this point you know hopefullythere's no children listening
we're not going to spoil it.
But spoiler alert, there's notooth fairy.
So while he was little, youknow, he didn't know.
(29:43):
So he would wake up and there'dbe something and be like oh my
God, the tooth fairy left that.
Right now that he's older andhe knows that there's no such
thing, the expectation is there.
Yeah.
And number one it takes a lot ofthe excitement out of the
process for me, like it takesthe magic out of it, because now
not only is he expecting it,but he's now asking his friends
(30:06):
what do you get?
And then you're like, and thenhe's like well, you only gave me
$5 and my friends get like $100or whatever you know.
And I'm like who gives theirkid $100?
And I was like, why wouldyou're 10, you know?
And I thought like that wasreally cool.
Like I gave him five bucks,like whatever.
(30:27):
So it's like now not only isthat expectation there, but he
can't appreciate whatever I givehim, because now he's doing the
comparison thing, which is kindof like the person saying well,
last year I got this much formy bonus or my colleague got
that much for their bonus and Ionly got this.
So now you're getting thisextra thing which is supposed to
be like an appreciation token,and it's become this thing that
(30:51):
you're really negative about.
I just you know.
So we have to find other otherways, ways that are unexpected,
ways that show us continuousliving, not through monetary
means per se, that you didn'tforget about us as employees,
that you care, that you're,you're recognizing us, because,
(31:13):
at the end of the day, what weall want is to be heard, to be
seen and to be understood.
And so if you can show me thatyou see how hard I work, you
appreciate the effort that I'mputting in.
You're not there to scold meabout maybe I had to take time
off because I had to go take mykid to the doctor, or you know,
(31:36):
like you're not letting thelittle things get in the way but
you're looking at the bigpicture and you're having this
more comprehensive approach tome as a human, not as a robot
Then I'm going to love workingfor you and it's really, at the
end of the day, it's about thatrelationship.
So if I feel connected to youand I'm like my manager has my
(31:56):
back, yeah Then that's where theloyalty comes in.
And if I'm loyal to you, I willdo everything to make sure that
this company is profitable.
I will make sure that I do mybest work because I care about
what this company stands for,because that manager maybe not
(32:20):
isn't like the founder of thatcompany but, they're
representative of that company.
Dr. Pelè (32:28):
Yeah, no, you will not believe.
You've pretty much written mywhole book and my software and
all the things that I've workedon right there and that little
explanation so powerful, and Iappreciate that link.
I think you said it earlier Allthe things that can help you
alleviate stress are actuallythe same things that can help
(32:48):
you grow your sense ofsatisfaction and happiness, and
it's really two sizes the samecoin, dr Sharon.
What are you working on rightnow?
What are you excited about?
I know that you've got a bookcoming out.
Tell us about that and tell ushow we can connect with you on
social media to learn more.
Dr. Sharon Grossman (33:07):
Happy to.
So you know, when I wrote myburnout book, it's really like a
manifesto.
It's like 400 plus pages,because I put everything that I
ever taught any of my clients,and then some from like 20 years
of experience, into that book.
So I just poured it all in.
But I also realized that it wasa little much for people.
(33:30):
It's like no one's going to sitthere and read and it's like a
media.
So I decided to do the exactopposite for this next book, and
this book is about how stresscan be leveraged as a positive,
and so I created about theshortest book you can find on
the subject, because I wantedpeople to be able to grasp these
(33:52):
concepts as quickly as possibleand be able to run with them,
and so it's called the stressadvantage lessons from the
tennis court.
And what I did there, which isreally fun, is when I was taking
tennis lessons, I took notesabout what my coach would say
and I would say you know, youcould totally spin this and
think about how this applies tothe workplace, and so I decided
to take my notes and create thisstory that you can consume.
(34:16):
It's, again, very short, youcould do it in one sitting, and
so that you can find on Amazon.
By the time this episodelaunches, it should be up so.
So that's what I've beenworking on and I'm super excited
about that and sharing that.
And where you can find me?
I'm most active on LinkedIn, soif you go to LinkedIn, you can
(34:37):
find me there under SharonGrossman.
I am the burnout doc, andreally all the other goodies
that I have for you are on mywebsite, which is
DrSharanGrossmancom.
We've got a lot of freebiethings related to burnout.
So if you're thinking about,well, am I burned out?
(34:57):
You know what do I do?
I've got a burnout checklistyou can download for free.
I've got a weekly newsletterthat I share every everything
new that I've done for the week.
You know I have a blog and thepodcast episodes.
By the way, my podcast isDecode your Burnout and we're
going to have Dr Pallee on theresoon, so check that out as well
(35:20):
.
So, yeah, for all the thingsthat I do speaking training it's
all on the websiteDrSharanGrossmancom.
Dr. Pelè (35:30):
Awesome, and once you get your new book back from the
publishers or from Amazon,please send us a link and we
will have that included in theshow notes for this episode.
Drsharan, it has been apleasure learning from you and
getting to know you.
Thank you so much for being aguest on the Profitable
Happiness Podcast.
Dr. Sharon Grossman (35:48):
Thank you so much for having me.
It's been amazing.
Dr. Pelè (35:52):
Thanks for tuning in to the Profitable Happiness
Podcast.
For more episodes, visitDrPalleecom.
And remember get happy firstand success will follow.
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