October 3, 2023 • 35 mins
Imagine a workplace where everyone gets to tell their story, and where everyone feels a sense of belonging.
Sounds utopian, right?
Brace yourself for an enlightening conversation with Maria Morukian, acclaimed author of the book, "Diversity, Equity and Inclusion for Trainers."
We delve into her journey of becoming a voice for the voiceless and her commitment to ensuring every story gets told, and every voice heard, forging an environment that resonates with DEI principles.
In her signature manner, Maria declares that "inclusion is NOT enough," and imparts her wisdom on how trainers and talent development professionals can help embed DEI into an organization's core.
Be prepared to have your perspectives challenged and broadened by this riveting discussion.
You can reach Maria Morukian online here:
Website: https://msmglobalconsulting.com/
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/maria-morukian/
Book: https://amzn.to/3ZJBw1p
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Dr. Pelè (00:00):
Hello happy people, welcome to the Profitable
Happiness Podcast.
Hello everyone, this is Dr.
Pelè with the ProfitableHappiness Podcast, and today it
is my pleasure to introduce youto Maria Morukian, who is the
author of the book Diversity,equity and Inclusion for
(00:22):
Trainers.
I am so pleased to learn fromyou, to hear about your topic,
your background, maria.
How are you doing today?
Maria Morukian (00:31):
I'm doing fantastic.
Thank you so much for having meon Dr.
Pelè.
Dr. Pelè (00:35):
Oh, absolutely Absolutely.
You know we were talking aboutdiversity, equity and inclusion,
and you said something thatalmost broke my heart and I'm
just going to repeat it rightnow.
You said inclusion is notenough.
Oh, my goodness, where do westart with that topic?
Tell us exactly what you meanby that and then give us a sense
(00:56):
of the challenge, the problemthat organizations are facing,
where you have to say somethinglike that, where it's so deep
that they've got to digthemselves out.
And inclusion, just inclusion,is not even enough.
Maria Morukian (01:09):
Tell, us about the problem?
Absolutely yes.
So if you had asked me 20 yearsago when I first started doing
this work, I probably would havesaid inclusion is what we need
to be focusing on, because atthat point in time, much more of
the focus was on this notion ofmanaging diversity and it
(01:29):
really was much more focused oncompliance with, you know, equal
employment, opportunity lawsand maybe just a little bit of.
We should probably start tolook at our workforce and to
make sure that it's a little bitmore representative of the
demographics in our nation andin our overall society.
(01:50):
But there was not very muchdiscussion about this notion of
inclusion, which really is aboutcreating an organizational
environment and culture wherepeople feel that sense of
belonging.
The reason that I now sayinclusion is not enough is
because often what I and anumber of other diversity,
equity and inclusionpractitioners see is that
(02:14):
leaders tend to have a somewhatsuperficial idea and perception
about what inclusion, diversity,equity really look like in
action, and what I mean by thatis that inevitably, this notion
of inclusion turns into well,we've created this
organizational structure thatfits our needs the needs of the
(02:37):
people who are part of thedominant group, the needs of the
people who are in positions ofauthority and power and status.
And so this notion of saying wewant to invite you to come to
the table and we welcome you isgood intentions but it is not
enough.
And the reason it's not enoughis because there still is that
(03:00):
power differential, there stillis an expectation for people who
have not had the same access toassimilate, to leave aside
their own identities, their ownunique talents and
characteristics, and to try tofit themselves into this
proverbial mold.
So when I say inclusion is notenough, what I mean is we need
(03:22):
to challenge and then dismantlethat table and those chairs and
say we got to rebuild this wholespace together so that truly is
something that we areco-creating and ensuring that
everybody who enters into thisorganization, into this
community, into this societyfeels that deep sense of
belonging Breach.
Dr. Pelè (03:44):
Let me just tell you that this topic is so dear to my
heart.
In fact, a lot of people talkabout this thing called employee
experience and they make a bigdeal about employee experience,
but wait a second, whoseexperience is it really?
Who created the table, as yousay?
Who created all this stuff?
If we, as employees, don't getto participate in the creation
(04:07):
of that experience, how is ittruly our experience and how can
we really enjoy it andappreciate it?
I can't wait.
Okay, so thank you for that.
So we've identified as a set ofchallenges.
You're going deeper than mostof the DEI conversations that
I've seen or heard.
I really appreciate that, andI'm wondering what exactly
(04:30):
brought you to this table.
What's your history or yourstory?
What is it that made you theperson who wrote this book and
the person who is helping tosolve this problem in the world?
Maria Morukian (04:42):
So I was sharing with you, before we started the
recording that, my familybackground.
My family name, marukyan, isArmenian by ethnicity and
although I grew up in a verysort of prototypical Midwestern
American, white, middle-classhouse and family, there was
(05:06):
always a significantundercurrent of difference and a
connection to being other andmy father's side of the family.
They were refugees twice over.
So they had to flee Turkeyduring the Armenian genocide and
at the time the US had actuallyclosed its borders to any
(05:28):
really non-Western Europeanimmigrants, and so my family
were not able to come into theUnited States where many of
their other family members andfriends had settled, and so they
went to Cuba and there wasactually a significant Armenian
population in Cuba at the timeand so my dad was born in Havana
and had this very interestingsort of cultural identity of
(05:52):
being Armenian in his home withhis family and Cuban on the
streets, and then, as a youngman, coming with his family to
the United States and settlingin Detroit, michigan, and sort
of starting all over again, newlanguage, new culture and trying
to make a life for themselves.
(06:13):
And he was fortunate enough andtenacious enough to create that
life, not only for himself andfor my mother, but also for my
sister and me, and so we weresurrounded from a very young age
with people who came from sucha wide variety of backgrounds,
languages, cultures, reflectedand represented in our household
(06:36):
, and so I think that presenceof different stories and walks
of life was something that wascore to who I was from a very
young stage, and also somethingI often reflect on is the value
that was implicitly andexplicitly reinforced in my
(06:59):
family around being a voice andusing our power wherever we have
it to speak for those who arevoiceless, in whatever capacity
that is, and that has followedme throughout my life.
So my academic pursuits, myprofessional experiences, I
think, have always been drivenby that sense of moral
(07:22):
responsibility, but also a deepdesire to be that voice and also
to create space for storiesthat often don't get told to be
shared more broadly.
Dr. Pelè (07:34):
Wow.
So it's one of those.
Like you know, I have a sayingon my wall.
It goes a leader is one whoknows the way, goes the way and
shows the way.
Oh, I love that.
Yeah, this is.
This is.
This is personal for you, thisis real, you've been there.
This is not just academic foryou and that's that's really
(07:55):
awesome, you know.
I would love to know sort ofthe details of how you solve
some of the challenges relatedto DDI.
How specifically does your bookand its body of knowledge, you
know, paint the solution for,for, for this, for organizations
?
You know you might have a fivestep model, a 10 step, maybe a
(08:18):
12 step program.
Who knows that that that youbring to the table?
Tell us a little bit about howyou can solve the challenges of
DDI in an organization.
Maria Morukian (08:29):
Absolutely so I think going back revisiting that
challenge of inclusion is notenough.
And and really parsing that outin terms of some of the major
challenges that we are oftenworking with our clients and our
partners around is what does itreally look like for us to co
(08:49):
create a culture at theinstitutional level that does
work for everyone?
And also I think sort oftangentially to that is, how do
we ensure that everybody who isa part of this organization
feels that sense of commitmentand common purpose toward
(09:13):
diversity, equity and inclusionin that meaningful way?
And so those are, I think, aretwo of the challenges that we
often really focus our our, ourwork on with our clients, and we
will often start with just,first and foremost, trying to
assess what is theorganizational culture, and you
mentioned earlier who's havingwhat experience?
Because so often what I seewhen I have conversations with
(09:38):
senior leaders, I ask them tellme a little bit about your
organizational culture and theywill describe it, and sometimes
they'll describe some of thechallenges that they see.
But more often than not theyhave a rosier picture about the
organizational environment and,in particular, often see
themselves because we all do, asthe heroes of their own story.
(10:00):
Right, and so they will expresstheir openness to creating safe
and, you know, open spaces forpeople to provide feedback and
that their psychological safety.
but then when I talk to folks onthe ground level, their
experiences are often verydifferent and not quite so rosy,
(10:22):
and so that can be reallychallenging sometimes for
leaders to hear right, but I'm agood person and I've created
this organization and I know allof the work that I've put in to
make this place better.
But my employees are nowtelling me that either it's not
enough or I'm missing the mark,or they are, they are feeling
(10:47):
harmed in some way.
I think that cognitivedissonance is something that we
really need to focus on whenwe're doing this work.
So I would say, first andforemost, it's not just doing
the data collection, but it'shaving meaningful, heartfelt,
honest conversations with peoplein positions of power to get
(11:09):
them to not only see where thegaps are but to believe what
their employees are saying, thatwhen they express that those
gaps exist, that those painpoints exist, and so then what
inevitably follows?
That is some sort of visioningprocess.
We can't determine the rightroad if we don't know the
(11:34):
destination, and that needs tobe collective as well.
So we take time and really kindof just slow down the process
because leaders inevitably wantto jump right into problem
solving.
Okay, you told me what theproblem is.
Tell me what are the one, two,three.
What's the recipe to fix DEI inmy organizational culture, and
(11:57):
if I had that answer for you, Iwould be a very rich woman.
But it's not a one size fitsall, and so it really does
require an extensive amount ofcollective visioning
conversations.
What does a day in the life, inthe future state of our
organization look like?
(12:18):
Who's a part of it?
How are people engaging witheach other?
What are the policies and thepractices that are just part of
the way we all do things thatare steeped in DEI, and then we
can develop the plan to getthere A couple of other things
that are really important in thework that we do.
(12:38):
One is obviously learning anddevelopment.
What I am challenging many ofmy clients to do these days is,
yes, absolutely have explicitDEI training, where you're
focusing on some of these verypertinent issues around
unconscious bias and microinequities Excuse me and make
(13:02):
that a part of the overallorganizational learning
continuum.
So, from the moment a newemployee enters the organization
, or a volunteer or a boardmember, from the moment somebody
becomes a part of thisorganization, there is language
that tells them this is what weare committed to, this is what
(13:24):
we stand for.
These are the practices, theskills, the behaviors we expect
everyone who is a part of ourorganization to abide by and
then reinforce those skills andthose concepts in that language
in all of your training, in allof your learning activities, in
all of your meetings, and then,once the process becomes again,
(13:45):
it's a part of the fabric of theorganization.
And then the final thing I'llsay is, when it comes to
sustainability, we have to haveaccountability, and that means
ensuring particularly again withpeople who are in positions of
leadership, management,positions of authority that
(14:05):
there are clear and observablebehavioral or performance
metrics that people must achieveon a regular basis, putting
this in performance evaluations,making sure that everybody
feels that sense of not only I'mcommitted to this, I'm bought
(14:26):
into the vision, but also it'smy, this is part of my job, it
is part of my role andresponsibility, rather than
seeing DEI as this nice to have,this is absolutely tantamount
to me being successful in myrole in this organization.
Dr. Pelè (14:45):
You have in your book.
You've called out the idea thatthis is DEI for trainers.
Help us focus on that.
Of course, there's diversity,equity and inclusion for
organizations and you could doit for culture or you could
(15:05):
focus it anywhere, but why haveyou focused this on trainers in
your book?
Maria Morukian (15:11):
So I prioritized trainers and talent development
professionals because I thinkpeople in those roles have
access to everybody across theorganization.
So to the point I was makingearlier about embedding this
into the learning continuum andculture, if I'm in training and
talent development, there areregular moments, inflection
(15:36):
points across the entireemployee life cycle that I have
direct access to people where Ican make a difference in terms
of how they engage with theorganization and also I can be a
powerful data miner to identifywhat some of those different
perspectives and experiences are.
(15:57):
So I think training and talentdevelopment professionals play
such a profound role.
And also what was interestingto me is, after writing the book
and publishing it, I heard fromso many people who said I'm not
a professional trainer.
I don't work in the talentdevelopment or learning
development in my organization.
(16:18):
I'm the accidental trainer.
I'm the person who either raisedmy hand and said this matters
to me and I want to know how todo it, or I'm a leader or
manager that is trying to findways to make my teams more
inclusive, and your book helpedme do that.
So I think that what's beenreally exciting is to see that
(16:39):
there's a much broader appealand that these skills and ideas
resonate with people, regardlessof what their role is.
Dr. Pelè (16:49):
Yeah, I'm sure you cover what I'm about to ask you
in your book, and I'm wonderingabout blind spots, or what I
sometimes call mindset blockers.
It's interesting we have oureyes and nose and ears pointing
this way forward or that way,but there's nothing behind us,
(17:09):
so obviously we can't see behindus.
It's a blind spot.
Now, this shows up in behaviortoo.
It shows up in our lives andeverything that we do.
Sometimes we just don't see thefull picture.
How is it that, or how do youaddress blind spots when it
comes to diversity, equity andinclusion Things that get in the
(17:30):
way of people making this work?
Maria Morukian (17:34):
Yeah, I think it's normalizing that those
blind spots exist, first andforemost, and that all of us
have them.
And yet all of us are going tohave different blind spots,
based on our own identities, towhich we belong, our lived
experiences, even sometimes ourcurrent emotional, physical,
(17:55):
mental state.
We are all of us, just as humanbeings, the way that our brains
function.
It's impossible for us to takein all of the information that's
around us, and so we have tofilter information in and out,
and we tend to.
Our brains can sometimes be alittle bit lazy and they go for
(18:17):
the easiest, fastest informationthat reinforces what we already
know about ourselves and others, and so we don't realize
because it's happening at such arapid rate.
We don't realize it's happeningand we don't realize how
powerful it is in terms ofinfluencing not only our
(18:39):
perceptions but our decisions,our behaviors and also the way
that others then react to us.
So there's such a ripple effectto this tunnel vision that we
have.
One of the things that I've beendoing recently to address some
of these blind spots withclients is to talk about the.
(19:00):
So there's some reallyinteresting work that came out
from Harvard Business School,and Lisa Leahy and Robert Keegan
wrote a book a few years agocalled the Immunity to Change,
and the premise of the book isthat, even when we are, we think
(19:21):
that we are driving toward aconscious stated vision, right,
we have our consciously statedgoals, this is what we want,
this is what we say we want,it's what we know we want.
We're putting time, energy,money toward it, and yet why
aren't we making the progressthat we would hope to?
(19:41):
Well, when we pull the, when wekind of pull the onion peels
and look underneath, what weoften find is that, at the
individual, at the group andeven at the institutional level,
we may be engaging in behaviorsthat are directly impeding our
(20:02):
ability to achieve that statedgoal.
Dr. Pelè (20:05):
Wow.
Maria Morukian (20:07):
And why is that?
Rather than getting caught upin the defensiveness of well,
you say you want this and you'rea hypocrite because you're not
doing it.
Dr. Pelè (20:15):
Yeah.
Maria Morukian (20:16):
And asking ourselves from a place of deep
curiosity why is that?
What are the hidden commitmentsthat I might not even be
conscious of that could beholding me back and putting me
back into this place of thestatus quo?
And when we can have thosethoughtful conversations and
address some of thoseassumptions that are holding us
(20:37):
back, that's where we can startto shift our behavior, create
new patterns, not only again interms of our individual
behaviors, but at theorganizational level.
We can really challenge andchange some of those practices
and structures that have held usin this place of stasis for so
long.
Dr. Pelè (20:57):
I really appreciate your commitment to conversations
and the fact that we'recreating this story together.
It's not a one size fits all.
Do it now and it's done.
It's going to evolve over timeand along this idea of how
exactly do we improve culture orbuild cultures that are more
(21:20):
inclusive.
I have one more question and tome this is another one of those
close to my heart things.
There's a saying, there's anAfrican saying, that the hunter
is always the hero until thehunted gets a chance to tell
their story.
Maria Morukian (21:38):
I love that.
Dr. Pelè (21:41):
Yeah, and I know there's this whole debate hey,
don't be the victim versus who'sthe victim, who's the victor.
How do we spark theseconversations that allow the
hunted I'm just using that wordTo be the hero a little bit to
hear everybody's story, even theleaders and the followers?
(22:03):
Everyone gets their story in,so that diversity, inclusion and
equity are our effort, not onlythe effort of leaders who are
trying to get employees happieror employees who feel like
victims.
I'm just throwing that out.
How do we do theseconversations?
How do we start them?
(22:23):
Oh gosh so we can talk for hours.
Is what you're thinking, right,yeah?
Maria Morukian (22:29):
we can and this is one of the most rewarding
parts of my work, I think iswhen I am able to bring people
together for those types ofdialogues and witness what
happens when people cometogether and truly listen and
(22:55):
share not only their what buttheir why and humanize each
other, even if they walk awaystill being in complete and
utter disagreement on certainaspects or beliefs, but they
have seen and heard and justfelt with one another.
So I can give you a quickexample of one story that will
(23:18):
always stand out in my mind asone of the most powerful
experiences I've ever had as aGEI facilitator.
So this was several years agoand I had a group of people and
I asked them to read twostatements and then, depending
on which statement more clearlyreflected their beliefs, to go
(23:44):
stand on one side of the room orthe other, and we started with
sort of innocuous like coffeeversus tea and Kindle versus
paper books and cats versus dogs, but then we shifted into
asking them some prettysignificant and polarizing
questions, and one of thequestions where people went from
(24:06):
one side of the room to theother was one statement was
players and athletes shouldstand and salute the flag during
the national anthem.
And on the other side it wasplayers should have the right or
opportunity to kneel during thenational anthem in protest of
(24:29):
racial injustices that arehappening in our country, and
this is obviously something thathas been of significant
divisiveness in the US for anumber of years.
And you saw people get reallyquiet and start to move kind of
(24:49):
slowly to one side or the otherbased on what they believed, and
they're kind of looking aroundat like, oh, this is on the
other side and these are folksthat work together and they're
like they're notsupposed to talk about these
things at work, but I said Idon't want you to debate, I
don't want you to try to argueor win people over to your side.
I want you to share your story.
(25:10):
Why did you choose to move tothis side or the other?
And an older white man came upand said I am a veteran, I
served in active duty and combatand I've lost many close
friends and so who gave theirlives, sacrificed themselves,
(25:33):
and their families gave thatsacrifice as well.
So when I see these playerskneeling, it makes me angry and
sad, because all I can thinkabout is my friends and their
family members who have lost somuch for our country, and so to
me, the act of patriotism, ofstanding and saluting the flag
(25:55):
is one that shows honor to thosewho have given that ultimate
sacrifice, and anAfrican-American woman on the
other side came forward and shesaid you know, I really
appreciate you sharing thatstory.
I'm a veteran too.
I served in active combat, andthe reason I chose to stand on
this other side is because, as ablack woman, I have lived my
(26:18):
entire life experiencing andwitnessing others in my
community experience not onlymarginalization and injustice,
but violence against us.
And I've had to have theconversation with my young boys
about what to do or not do ifthey're ever pulled over by the
(26:40):
police, so that they can comehome to me at the end of the day
.
And so for me, when I see theseplayers kneeling, even as a
veteran who cares deeply aboutthis country, that to me
indicates an act of patriotism.
And the whole room was silent.
And these two people, you knowthey didn't cross over to each
(27:00):
other's side, but they both sawone another and they found
connection, not only in whatthey had in common, but they
heard one another's stories andhonored that.
And so I think that is just oneof the many experiences that
I've seen where, when people putall of the the pungetry and the
ideologies to the side and justshare from the heart who they
(27:23):
are and why they are, that'swhere we start to see this
rehumanization take place, andit is powerful.
Dr. Pelè (27:31):
Powerful.
I'm gonna echo that because Ithink that was a masterclass
right there.
Just great, great teaching onyour part.
I really connected to whatyou're saying and you know I'd
love to know how all of thisgets to the bottom line.
You know, there are manyskeptics, many leaders, for
example, who may say you know,and I love this topic, I believe
(27:55):
in these things, I'm open, buthow does DEI or things like
employee happiness lead us toprofitability?
Maria Morukian (28:06):
Right, absolutely what is that link?
Dr. Pelè (28:09):
Can we talk about that link?
Maria Morukian (28:10):
they say Because I'm certain that there are some
people listening to this whoare like so you're saying that
we should go to work and sitdown and have these deep
conversations about our personalbeliefs and stories.
Dr. Pelè (28:23):
Yeah.
Maria Morukian (28:24):
Yes, to some extent, possibly.
And here's why Because whenpeople there's so much research
that goes back decades thatshows when people feel
emotionally connected andinvested in the organization, in
its mission, in its vision, inits culture, when they feel like
(28:46):
the organization cares aboutthem and about others with whom
they work, they're more engaged,they have higher levels of
trust.
We've seen, you know, theGallup organization has done
decades of research on employeeengagement and made the direct
connection between high levelsof engagement and productivity
(29:09):
and performance and retentionand innovation.
And likewise the Edelman grouphas done a ton of work looking
at organizational trust.
And when employees feel thatdeeper sense of trust, they're
more willing to not only givediscretionary effort but to set
aside their own individual wantsand needs for the greater good
(29:32):
of the organization.
So you think about the turmoilthat happens when we have any
sort of organizational changes,large or small.
People are going to be morewilling to enter into that
unknown territory and trust thatthe leaders have their back if
they feel that sense ofinclusion.
And then, just simply lookingat the changing demographics,
(29:56):
not only within the UnitedStates but on a global scale, if
you want to recruit and retaintop talent, if you want to tap
into the consumer buying powerof our nation.
It is profoundly ignorant to notfocus on DEI issues at this
(30:18):
point in time.
When you look at just thesignificant numbers and
increases of buying power of notonly those who have been
considered racially andethnically minoritized, but also
women.
There are far more women inprofessional positions than in
the workforce than ever before.
I think we just hit over 50% ofwomen participating in the
(30:38):
workforce for, I think, only thefirst or second time in our
history.
The significant consumer powerof the LGBTQIA plus community
and so on and so forth.
So there's absolute.
It makes deep and meaningfulbusiness sense to focus on DEI
and it needs to be done in anauthentic way and not just
(30:59):
window dressing because, also,when we look at it from the
perspective of the nextgeneration of the workforce and
consumers, they can read betweenthe lines and see what
organizations truly care aboutDEI and are committed to it and
who's doing it.
Just to check a box.
So I think it's absolutely.
It is.
(31:21):
There's no contest that it hasto be something that
organizations truly commit tonow and for many years into the
future.
Dr. Pelè (31:29):
I love that and I have to say, as you just said, you
can't just bring the sizzles,you got to bring the steak, and
inclusion is not enough.
Right, Give us the truth, like,be authentic, be real.
I love that.
Oh, my goodness, maria, thishas been such a conversation.
Share with us what you'reexcited about right now, what
(31:50):
you're working on, what you wantus to maybe come find, and how
people can find you and connectwith you online.
Maria Morukian (31:56):
Absolutely so well, as you have mentioned.
Thank you so much for sharinginformation about the book DEI
for Trainers, which we actuallymy company has built, also
programming around.
So we do programs.
We call it the DEI AmbassadorProgram and it essentially we
can come into any organizationand help build internal capacity
(32:20):
by working with, whether it'speople who are formally doing
training and talent developmentor those folks again who are the
accidental trainers but want tobe a part of that change in the
organization.
So we give them the skills andthe tools to be able to lead
these types of DEI trainingsessions and learning activities
(32:42):
in a meaningful way in theirorganization.
So that way you don't just havethe benefit of an external
trainer coming in once to dothis training, but you have
people who can continue toprovide this on a regular basis
and who know the organizationalculture really deeply.
And the other thing I'm reallyexcited about is we are
(33:02):
launching the Ember Programactually coming up in December
of 2023 in Washington DC, andEmber is, if you think about
that, the embers of the fire areactually hotter than the flames
, even though those burn sobrightly, and it's important for
(33:25):
any of us who are doing thiswork to be able to ignite those
big flames when the need arises,but also to be able to tend to
the embers over the long term,and so the whole purpose of the
Ember Program is to bring peopletogether who are invested in
DEI and engage in communitybuilding.
Focus not only on how do weaddress some of these ongoing
(33:49):
challenges and systemic barriersthat keep wanting to drag us
back to that status quo, butalso how do we engage in our own
and one another's well-beingand self-care so that we can
maintain that heat over the longterm rather than burning out.
Dr. Pelè (34:09):
Powerful stuff, and I will have a link to your
LinkedIn page.
Do you have any other website?
Actually, I'll also have a linkto your book on Amazon, but do
you have any other website thatyou would like to share?
Maria Morukian (34:21):
Yeah, people can find my company.
It's msmglobalconsultingcom.
We're also on socials, msmGlobal or Maria Maroukian, you
can find me.
And we also have a podcastcalled Culture Stew, which you
can find on any place where youget access to your podcasts, and
(34:42):
Culture Stew, similarly to thispodcast, is all about bringing
people together to share stories, to share some of the common
challenges, but also solutionsand best practices to address
critical DEI issues in oursociety today.
Dr. Pelè (34:59):
Awesome, Maria.
It has been a pleasure to learnfrom you, to meet you.
Thank you so much for being aguest on the Profitable
Happiness Podcast.
Maria Morukian (35:09):
Thank you.
Dr. Pelè (35:11):
Thanks for tuning in to the Profitable Happiness
Podcast.
For more episodes, visitDrPalletcom.
And remember get happy firstand success will follow.
Hello happy people, welcome to the Profitable
Happiness Podcast.
Hello everyone, this is Dr.
Pelè with the ProfitableHappiness Podcast, and today it
is my pleasure to introduce youto Maria Morukian, who is the
author of the book Diversity,equity and Inclusion for
(00:22):
Trainers.
I am so pleased to learn fromyou, to hear about your topic,
your background, maria.
How are you doing today?
Maria Morukian (00:31):
I'm doing fantastic.
Thank you so much for having meon Dr.
Pelè.
Dr. Pelè (00:35):
Oh, absolutely Absolutely.
You know we were talking aboutdiversity, equity and inclusion,
and you said something thatalmost broke my heart and I'm
just going to repeat it rightnow.
You said inclusion is notenough.
Oh, my goodness, where do westart with that topic?
Tell us exactly what you meanby that and then give us a sense
(00:56):
of the challenge, the problemthat organizations are facing,
where you have to say somethinglike that, where it's so deep
that they've got to digthemselves out.
And inclusion, just inclusion,is not even enough.
Maria Morukian (01:09):
Tell, us about the problem?
Absolutely yes.
So if you had asked me 20 yearsago when I first started doing
this work, I probably would havesaid inclusion is what we need
to be focusing on, because atthat point in time, much more of
the focus was on this notion ofmanaging diversity and it
(01:29):
really was much more focused oncompliance with, you know, equal
employment, opportunity lawsand maybe just a little bit of.
We should probably start tolook at our workforce and to
make sure that it's a little bitmore representative of the
demographics in our nation andin our overall society.
(01:50):
But there was not very muchdiscussion about this notion of
inclusion, which really is aboutcreating an organizational
environment and culture wherepeople feel that sense of
belonging.
The reason that I now sayinclusion is not enough is
because often what I and anumber of other diversity,
equity and inclusionpractitioners see is that
(02:14):
leaders tend to have a somewhatsuperficial idea and perception
about what inclusion, diversity,equity really look like in
action, and what I mean by thatis that inevitably, this notion
of inclusion turns into well,we've created this
organizational structure thatfits our needs the needs of the
(02:37):
people who are part of thedominant group, the needs of the
people who are in positions ofauthority and power and status.
And so this notion of saying wewant to invite you to come to
the table and we welcome you isgood intentions but it is not
enough.
And the reason it's not enoughis because there still is that
(03:00):
power differential, there stillis an expectation for people who
have not had the same access toassimilate, to leave aside
their own identities, their ownunique talents and
characteristics, and to try tofit themselves into this
proverbial mold.
So when I say inclusion is notenough, what I mean is we need
(03:22):
to challenge and then dismantlethat table and those chairs and
say we got to rebuild this wholespace together so that truly is
something that we areco-creating and ensuring that
everybody who enters into thisorganization, into this
community, into this societyfeels that deep sense of
belonging Breach.
Dr. Pelè (03:44):
Let me just tell you that this topic is so dear to my
heart.
In fact, a lot of people talkabout this thing called employee
experience and they make a bigdeal about employee experience,
but wait a second, whoseexperience is it really?
Who created the table, as yousay?
Who created all this stuff?
If we, as employees, don't getto participate in the creation
(04:07):
of that experience, how is ittruly our experience and how can
we really enjoy it andappreciate it?
I can't wait.
Okay, so thank you for that.
So we've identified as a set ofchallenges.
You're going deeper than mostof the DEI conversations that
I've seen or heard.
I really appreciate that, andI'm wondering what exactly
(04:30):
brought you to this table.
What's your history or yourstory?
What is it that made you theperson who wrote this book and
the person who is helping tosolve this problem in the world?
Maria Morukian (04:42):
So I was sharing with you, before we started the
recording that, my familybackground.
My family name, marukyan, isArmenian by ethnicity and
although I grew up in a verysort of prototypical Midwestern
American, white, middle-classhouse and family, there was
(05:06):
always a significantundercurrent of difference and a
connection to being other andmy father's side of the family.
They were refugees twice over.
So they had to flee Turkeyduring the Armenian genocide and
at the time the US had actuallyclosed its borders to any
(05:28):
really non-Western Europeanimmigrants, and so my family
were not able to come into theUnited States where many of
their other family members andfriends had settled, and so they
went to Cuba and there wasactually a significant Armenian
population in Cuba at the timeand so my dad was born in Havana
and had this very interestingsort of cultural identity of
(05:52):
being Armenian in his home withhis family and Cuban on the
streets, and then, as a youngman, coming with his family to
the United States and settlingin Detroit, michigan, and sort
of starting all over again, newlanguage, new culture and trying
to make a life for themselves.
(06:13):
And he was fortunate enough andtenacious enough to create that
life, not only for himself andfor my mother, but also for my
sister and me, and so we weresurrounded from a very young age
with people who came from sucha wide variety of backgrounds,
languages, cultures, reflectedand represented in our household
(06:36):
, and so I think that presenceof different stories and walks
of life was something that wascore to who I was from a very
young stage, and also somethingI often reflect on is the value
that was implicitly andexplicitly reinforced in my
(06:59):
family around being a voice andusing our power wherever we have
it to speak for those who arevoiceless, in whatever capacity
that is, and that has followedme throughout my life.
So my academic pursuits, myprofessional experiences, I
think, have always been drivenby that sense of moral
(07:22):
responsibility, but also a deepdesire to be that voice and also
to create space for storiesthat often don't get told to be
shared more broadly.
Dr. Pelè (07:34):
Wow.
So it's one of those.
Like you know, I have a sayingon my wall.
It goes a leader is one whoknows the way, goes the way and
shows the way.
Oh, I love that.
Yeah, this is.
This is.
This is personal for you, thisis real, you've been there.
This is not just academic foryou and that's that's really
(07:55):
awesome, you know.
I would love to know sort ofthe details of how you solve
some of the challenges relatedto DDI.
How specifically does your bookand its body of knowledge, you
know, paint the solution for,for, for this, for organizations
?
You know you might have a fivestep model, a 10 step, maybe a
(08:18):
12 step program.
Who knows that that that youbring to the table?
Tell us a little bit about howyou can solve the challenges of
DDI in an organization.
Maria Morukian (08:29):
Absolutely so I think going back revisiting that
challenge of inclusion is notenough.
And and really parsing that outin terms of some of the major
challenges that we are oftenworking with our clients and our
partners around is what does itreally look like for us to co
(08:49):
create a culture at theinstitutional level that does
work for everyone?
And also I think sort oftangentially to that is, how do
we ensure that everybody who isa part of this organization
feels that sense of commitmentand common purpose toward
(09:13):
diversity, equity and inclusionin that meaningful way?
And so those are, I think, aretwo of the challenges that we
often really focus our our, ourwork on with our clients, and we
will often start with just,first and foremost, trying to
assess what is theorganizational culture, and you
mentioned earlier who's havingwhat experience?
Because so often what I seewhen I have conversations with
(09:38):
senior leaders, I ask them tellme a little bit about your
organizational culture and theywill describe it, and sometimes
they'll describe some of thechallenges that they see.
But more often than not theyhave a rosier picture about the
organizational environment and,in particular, often see
themselves because we all do, asthe heroes of their own story.
(10:00):
Right, and so they will expresstheir openness to creating safe
and, you know, open spaces forpeople to provide feedback and
that their psychological safety.
but then when I talk to folks onthe ground level, their
experiences are often verydifferent and not quite so rosy,
(10:22):
and so that can be reallychallenging sometimes for
leaders to hear right, but I'm agood person and I've created
this organization and I know allof the work that I've put in to
make this place better.
But my employees are nowtelling me that either it's not
enough or I'm missing the mark,or they are, they are feeling
(10:47):
harmed in some way.
I think that cognitivedissonance is something that we
really need to focus on whenwe're doing this work.
So I would say, first andforemost, it's not just doing
the data collection, but it'shaving meaningful, heartfelt,
honest conversations with peoplein positions of power to get
(11:09):
them to not only see where thegaps are but to believe what
their employees are saying, thatwhen they express that those
gaps exist, that those painpoints exist, and so then what
inevitably follows?
That is some sort of visioningprocess.
We can't determine the rightroad if we don't know the
(11:34):
destination, and that needs tobe collective as well.
So we take time and really kindof just slow down the process
because leaders inevitably wantto jump right into problem
solving.
Okay, you told me what theproblem is.
Tell me what are the one, two,three.
What's the recipe to fix DEI inmy organizational culture, and
(11:57):
if I had that answer for you, Iwould be a very rich woman.
But it's not a one size fitsall, and so it really does
require an extensive amount ofcollective visioning
conversations.
What does a day in the life, inthe future state of our
organization look like?
(12:18):
Who's a part of it?
How are people engaging witheach other?
What are the policies and thepractices that are just part of
the way we all do things thatare steeped in DEI, and then we
can develop the plan to getthere A couple of other things
that are really important in thework that we do.
(12:38):
One is obviously learning anddevelopment.
What I am challenging many ofmy clients to do these days is,
yes, absolutely have explicitDEI training, where you're
focusing on some of these verypertinent issues around
unconscious bias and microinequities Excuse me and make
(13:02):
that a part of the overallorganizational learning
continuum.
So, from the moment a newemployee enters the organization
, or a volunteer or a boardmember, from the moment somebody
becomes a part of thisorganization, there is language
that tells them this is what weare committed to, this is what
(13:24):
we stand for.
These are the practices, theskills, the behaviors we expect
everyone who is a part of ourorganization to abide by and
then reinforce those skills andthose concepts in that language
in all of your training, in allof your learning activities, in
all of your meetings, and then,once the process becomes again,
(13:45):
it's a part of the fabric of theorganization.
And then the final thing I'llsay is, when it comes to
sustainability, we have to haveaccountability, and that means
ensuring particularly again withpeople who are in positions of
leadership, management,positions of authority that
(14:05):
there are clear and observablebehavioral or performance
metrics that people must achieveon a regular basis, putting
this in performance evaluations,making sure that everybody
feels that sense of not only I'mcommitted to this, I'm bought
(14:26):
into the vision, but also it'smy, this is part of my job, it
is part of my role andresponsibility, rather than
seeing DEI as this nice to have,this is absolutely tantamount
to me being successful in myrole in this organization.
Dr. Pelè (14:45):
You have in your book.
You've called out the idea thatthis is DEI for trainers.
Help us focus on that.
Of course, there's diversity,equity and inclusion for
organizations and you could doit for culture or you could
(15:05):
focus it anywhere, but why haveyou focused this on trainers in
your book?
Maria Morukian (15:11):
So I prioritized trainers and talent development
professionals because I thinkpeople in those roles have
access to everybody across theorganization.
So to the point I was makingearlier about embedding this
into the learning continuum andculture, if I'm in training and
talent development, there areregular moments, inflection
(15:36):
points across the entireemployee life cycle that I have
direct access to people where Ican make a difference in terms
of how they engage with theorganization and also I can be a
powerful data miner to identifywhat some of those different
perspectives and experiences are.
(15:57):
So I think training and talentdevelopment professionals play
such a profound role.
And also what was interestingto me is, after writing the book
and publishing it, I heard fromso many people who said I'm not
a professional trainer.
I don't work in the talentdevelopment or learning
development in my organization.
(16:18):
I'm the accidental trainer.
I'm the person who either raisedmy hand and said this matters
to me and I want to know how todo it, or I'm a leader or
manager that is trying to findways to make my teams more
inclusive, and your book helpedme do that.
So I think that what's beenreally exciting is to see that
(16:39):
there's a much broader appealand that these skills and ideas
resonate with people, regardlessof what their role is.
Dr. Pelè (16:49):
Yeah, I'm sure you cover what I'm about to ask you
in your book, and I'm wonderingabout blind spots, or what I
sometimes call mindset blockers.
It's interesting we have oureyes and nose and ears pointing
this way forward or that way,but there's nothing behind us,
(17:09):
so obviously we can't see behindus.
It's a blind spot.
Now, this shows up in behaviortoo.
It shows up in our lives andeverything that we do.
Sometimes we just don't see thefull picture.
How is it that, or how do youaddress blind spots when it
comes to diversity, equity andinclusion Things that get in the
(17:30):
way of people making this work?
Maria Morukian (17:34):
Yeah, I think it's normalizing that those
blind spots exist, first andforemost, and that all of us
have them.
And yet all of us are going tohave different blind spots,
based on our own identities, towhich we belong, our lived
experiences, even sometimes ourcurrent emotional, physical,
(17:55):
mental state.
We are all of us, just as humanbeings, the way that our brains
function.
It's impossible for us to takein all of the information that's
around us, and so we have tofilter information in and out,
and we tend to.
Our brains can sometimes be alittle bit lazy and they go for
(18:17):
the easiest, fastest informationthat reinforces what we already
know about ourselves and others, and so we don't realize
because it's happening at such arapid rate.
We don't realize it's happeningand we don't realize how
powerful it is in terms ofinfluencing not only our
(18:39):
perceptions but our decisions,our behaviors and also the way
that others then react to us.
So there's such a ripple effectto this tunnel vision that we
have.
One of the things that I've beendoing recently to address some
of these blind spots withclients is to talk about the.
(19:00):
So there's some reallyinteresting work that came out
from Harvard Business School,and Lisa Leahy and Robert Keegan
wrote a book a few years agocalled the Immunity to Change,
and the premise of the book isthat, even when we are, we think
(19:21):
that we are driving toward aconscious stated vision, right,
we have our consciously statedgoals, this is what we want,
this is what we say we want,it's what we know we want.
We're putting time, energy,money toward it, and yet why
aren't we making the progressthat we would hope to?
(19:41):
Well, when we pull the, when wekind of pull the onion peels
and look underneath, what weoften find is that, at the
individual, at the group andeven at the institutional level,
we may be engaging in behaviorsthat are directly impeding our
(20:02):
ability to achieve that statedgoal.
Dr. Pelè (20:05):
Wow.
Maria Morukian (20:07):
And why is that?
Rather than getting caught upin the defensiveness of well,
you say you want this and you'rea hypocrite because you're not
doing it.
Dr. Pelè (20:15):
Yeah.
Maria Morukian (20:16):
And asking ourselves from a place of deep
curiosity why is that?
What are the hidden commitmentsthat I might not even be
conscious of that could beholding me back and putting me
back into this place of thestatus quo?
And when we can have thosethoughtful conversations and
address some of thoseassumptions that are holding us
(20:37):
back, that's where we can startto shift our behavior, create
new patterns, not only again interms of our individual
behaviors, but at theorganizational level.
We can really challenge andchange some of those practices
and structures that have held usin this place of stasis for so
long.
Dr. Pelè (20:57):
I really appreciate your commitment to conversations
and the fact that we'recreating this story together.
It's not a one size fits all.
Do it now and it's done.
It's going to evolve over timeand along this idea of how
exactly do we improve culture orbuild cultures that are more
(21:20):
inclusive.
I have one more question and tome this is another one of those
close to my heart things.
There's a saying, there's anAfrican saying, that the hunter
is always the hero until thehunted gets a chance to tell
their story.
Maria Morukian (21:38):
I love that.
Dr. Pelè (21:41):
Yeah, and I know there's this whole debate hey,
don't be the victim versus who'sthe victim, who's the victor.
How do we spark theseconversations that allow the
hunted I'm just using that wordTo be the hero a little bit to
hear everybody's story, even theleaders and the followers?
(22:03):
Everyone gets their story in,so that diversity, inclusion and
equity are our effort, not onlythe effort of leaders who are
trying to get employees happieror employees who feel like
victims.
I'm just throwing that out.
How do we do theseconversations?
How do we start them?
(22:23):
Oh gosh so we can talk for hours.
Is what you're thinking, right,yeah?
Maria Morukian (22:29):
we can and this is one of the most rewarding
parts of my work, I think iswhen I am able to bring people
together for those types ofdialogues and witness what
happens when people cometogether and truly listen and
(22:55):
share not only their what buttheir why and humanize each
other, even if they walk awaystill being in complete and
utter disagreement on certainaspects or beliefs, but they
have seen and heard and justfelt with one another.
So I can give you a quickexample of one story that will
(23:18):
always stand out in my mind asone of the most powerful
experiences I've ever had as aGEI facilitator.
So this was several years agoand I had a group of people and
I asked them to read twostatements and then, depending
on which statement more clearlyreflected their beliefs, to go
(23:44):
stand on one side of the room orthe other, and we started with
sort of innocuous like coffeeversus tea and Kindle versus
paper books and cats versus dogs, but then we shifted into
asking them some prettysignificant and polarizing
questions, and one of thequestions where people went from
(24:06):
one side of the room to theother was one statement was
players and athletes shouldstand and salute the flag during
the national anthem.
And on the other side it wasplayers should have the right or
opportunity to kneel during thenational anthem in protest of
(24:29):
racial injustices that arehappening in our country, and
this is obviously something thathas been of significant
divisiveness in the US for anumber of years.
And you saw people get reallyquiet and start to move kind of
(24:49):
slowly to one side or the otherbased on what they believed, and
they're kind of looking aroundat like, oh, this is on the
other side and these are folksthat work together and they're
like they're notsupposed to talk about these
things at work, but I said Idon't want you to debate, I
don't want you to try to argueor win people over to your side.
I want you to share your story.
(25:10):
Why did you choose to move tothis side or the other?
And an older white man came upand said I am a veteran, I
served in active duty and combatand I've lost many close
friends and so who gave theirlives, sacrificed themselves,
(25:33):
and their families gave thatsacrifice as well.
So when I see these playerskneeling, it makes me angry and
sad, because all I can thinkabout is my friends and their
family members who have lost somuch for our country, and so to
me, the act of patriotism, ofstanding and saluting the flag
(25:55):
is one that shows honor to thosewho have given that ultimate
sacrifice, and anAfrican-American woman on the
other side came forward and shesaid you know, I really
appreciate you sharing thatstory.
I'm a veteran too.
I served in active combat, andthe reason I chose to stand on
this other side is because, as ablack woman, I have lived my
(26:18):
entire life experiencing andwitnessing others in my
community experience not onlymarginalization and injustice,
but violence against us.
And I've had to have theconversation with my young boys
about what to do or not do ifthey're ever pulled over by the
(26:40):
police, so that they can comehome to me at the end of the day
.
And so for me, when I see theseplayers kneeling, even as a
veteran who cares deeply aboutthis country, that to me
indicates an act of patriotism.
And the whole room was silent.
And these two people, you knowthey didn't cross over to each
(27:00):
other's side, but they both sawone another and they found
connection, not only in whatthey had in common, but they
heard one another's stories andhonored that.
And so I think that is just oneof the many experiences that
I've seen where, when people putall of the the pungetry and the
ideologies to the side and justshare from the heart who they
(27:23):
are and why they are, that'swhere we start to see this
rehumanization take place, andit is powerful.
Dr. Pelè (27:31):
Powerful.
I'm gonna echo that because Ithink that was a masterclass
right there.
Just great, great teaching onyour part.
I really connected to whatyou're saying and you know I'd
love to know how all of thisgets to the bottom line.
You know, there are manyskeptics, many leaders, for
example, who may say you know,and I love this topic, I believe
(27:55):
in these things, I'm open, buthow does DEI or things like
employee happiness lead us toprofitability?
Maria Morukian (28:06):
Right, absolutely what is that link?
Dr. Pelè (28:09):
Can we talk about that link?
Maria Morukian (28:10):
they say Because I'm certain that there are some
people listening to this whoare like so you're saying that
we should go to work and sitdown and have these deep
conversations about our personalbeliefs and stories.
Dr. Pelè (28:23):
Yeah.
Maria Morukian (28:24):
Yes, to some extent, possibly.
And here's why Because whenpeople there's so much research
that goes back decades thatshows when people feel
emotionally connected andinvested in the organization, in
its mission, in its vision, inits culture, when they feel like
(28:46):
the organization cares aboutthem and about others with whom
they work, they're more engaged,they have higher levels of
trust.
We've seen, you know, theGallup organization has done
decades of research on employeeengagement and made the direct
connection between high levelsof engagement and productivity
(29:09):
and performance and retentionand innovation.
And likewise the Edelman grouphas done a ton of work looking
at organizational trust.
And when employees feel thatdeeper sense of trust, they're
more willing to not only givediscretionary effort but to set
aside their own individual wantsand needs for the greater good
(29:32):
of the organization.
So you think about the turmoilthat happens when we have any
sort of organizational changes,large or small.
People are going to be morewilling to enter into that
unknown territory and trust thatthe leaders have their back if
they feel that sense ofinclusion.
And then, just simply lookingat the changing demographics,
(29:56):
not only within the UnitedStates but on a global scale, if
you want to recruit and retaintop talent, if you want to tap
into the consumer buying powerof our nation.
It is profoundly ignorant to notfocus on DEI issues at this
(30:18):
point in time.
When you look at just thesignificant numbers and
increases of buying power of notonly those who have been
considered racially andethnically minoritized, but also
women.
There are far more women inprofessional positions than in
the workforce than ever before.
I think we just hit over 50% ofwomen participating in the
(30:38):
workforce for, I think, only thefirst or second time in our
history.
The significant consumer powerof the LGBTQIA plus community
and so on and so forth.
So there's absolute.
It makes deep and meaningfulbusiness sense to focus on DEI
and it needs to be done in anauthentic way and not just
(30:59):
window dressing because, also,when we look at it from the
perspective of the nextgeneration of the workforce and
consumers, they can read betweenthe lines and see what
organizations truly care aboutDEI and are committed to it and
who's doing it.
Just to check a box.
So I think it's absolutely.
It is.
(31:21):
There's no contest that it hasto be something that
organizations truly commit tonow and for many years into the
future.
Dr. Pelè (31:29):
I love that and I have to say, as you just said, you
can't just bring the sizzles,you got to bring the steak, and
inclusion is not enough.
Right, Give us the truth, like,be authentic, be real.
I love that.
Oh, my goodness, maria, thishas been such a conversation.
Share with us what you'reexcited about right now, what
(31:50):
you're working on, what you wantus to maybe come find, and how
people can find you and connectwith you online.
Maria Morukian (31:56):
Absolutely so well, as you have mentioned.
Thank you so much for sharinginformation about the book DEI
for Trainers, which we actuallymy company has built, also
programming around.
So we do programs.
We call it the DEI AmbassadorProgram and it essentially we
can come into any organizationand help build internal capacity
(32:20):
by working with, whether it'speople who are formally doing
training and talent developmentor those folks again who are the
accidental trainers but want tobe a part of that change in the
organization.
So we give them the skills andthe tools to be able to lead
these types of DEI trainingsessions and learning activities
(32:42):
in a meaningful way in theirorganization.
So that way you don't just havethe benefit of an external
trainer coming in once to dothis training, but you have
people who can continue toprovide this on a regular basis
and who know the organizationalculture really deeply.
And the other thing I'm reallyexcited about is we are
(33:02):
launching the Ember Programactually coming up in December
of 2023 in Washington DC, andEmber is, if you think about
that, the embers of the fire areactually hotter than the flames
, even though those burn sobrightly, and it's important for
(33:25):
any of us who are doing thiswork to be able to ignite those
big flames when the need arises,but also to be able to tend to
the embers over the long term,and so the whole purpose of the
Ember Program is to bring peopletogether who are invested in
DEI and engage in communitybuilding.
Focus not only on how do weaddress some of these ongoing
(33:49):
challenges and systemic barriersthat keep wanting to drag us
back to that status quo, butalso how do we engage in our own
and one another's well-beingand self-care so that we can
maintain that heat over the longterm rather than burning out.
Dr. Pelè (34:09):
Powerful stuff, and I will have a link to your
LinkedIn page.
Do you have any other website?
Actually, I'll also have a linkto your book on Amazon, but do
you have any other website thatyou would like to share?
Maria Morukian (34:21):
Yeah, people can find my company.
It's msmglobalconsultingcom.
We're also on socials, msmGlobal or Maria Maroukian, you
can find me.
And we also have a podcastcalled Culture Stew, which you
can find on any place where youget access to your podcasts, and
(34:42):
Culture Stew, similarly to thispodcast, is all about bringing
people together to share stories, to share some of the common
challenges, but also solutionsand best practices to address
critical DEI issues in oursociety today.
Dr. Pelè (34:59):
Awesome, Maria.
It has been a pleasure to learnfrom you, to meet you.
Thank you so much for being aguest on the Profitable
Happiness Podcast.
Maria Morukian (35:09):
Thank you.
Dr. Pelè (35:11):
Thanks for tuning in to the Profitable Happiness
Podcast.
For more episodes, visitDrPalletcom.
And remember get happy firstand success will follow.
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