October 18, 2023 • 30 mins
Ever wonder why communication breakdowns seem to be a perpetual cycle in organizations?
Join me as I get to the heart of this issue with the dynamic Marsha Acker, CEO and principal at Team Catapult.
With her unique expertise, Marsha highlights how we can initiate the solution from within ourselves just by 'reading the room' and identifying when we're stuck in an endless loop of redundant conversations.
She underscores the pivotal role of our choice of words in framing a conversation – how a simple shift in vocabulary can flip problems into opportunities.
Listen in as Marsha walks us through her remarkable journey to the leader she is today.
To connect with Marsha Acker online, visit:
Website: https://teamcatapult.com/
Booksite: https://buildyourmodel.com/
Boon on Amazon: https://amzn.to/45zphGc
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/marsha-acker-3486a72/
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Dr. Pelè (00:00):
Hello happy people, welcome to the Profitable
Happiness Podcast.
Hello everyone, this is Dr.
Pelè with the ProfitableHappiness Podcast, and today it
is my pleasure to introduce youto Marsha Acker, who is the CEO
and principal at Team Catapult.
(00:20):
She's a leadership and teamcoach and today she's going to
share with us a whole bunch ofthings that actually have to do
with the idea that the problemis not out there.
We can start solving theproblem inside here, right,
marcia?
How are you doing today?
Marsha Acker (00:37):
I'm doing great.
It's wonderful to be here, sothanks for having me.
Dr. Pelè (00:41):
Absolutely so, Marcia.
We were discussing earlierabout the fact that there is an
abundance of challenges andproblems in the business world
and the world too, but let'sfocus on the organizations first
.
What specific problem, whatspecific challenge do you seem
to see over and over inside oforganizations that has made it
(01:04):
necessary for you to do what youdo today?
Marsha Acker (01:08):
Yeah, well, I would key off of the way you
asked that question, because Ithink that one of the challenges
in our day-to-day work inorganizations is that we all
will likely have had theexperience of having the same
conversation over and over again.
So just think about when wasthe?
(01:30):
As I asked that question, likewhat's an example of a time when
you've had the sameconversation over and over again
?
So maybe you were asking forsomething to get done and it
didn't get done, or there's aplace that you notice like it
keeps coming up.
People keep asking you when yougo.
Wait a minute.
I thought we've already decidedthis or we've already talked
(01:51):
about it.
Dr. Pelè (01:52):
Yeah.
Marsha Acker (01:52):
So I think that it's the.
It's just that simplephenomenon that happens.
That's a little bit like thewarning flag or the canary in
the coal mine that we're stuckin our conversation in some way,
so we are stuck in ourconversations.
Dr. Pelè (02:13):
Help me understand exactly what you mean by that,
because I think, when I look atcompanies and I think of that,
I'm thinking of people who areeither getting irritated because
things aren't happening andthey've talked about it a
million times and they're nothappening or they're getting
bored with the routine of work.
(02:33):
Which exact area are we focusedon?
Marsha Acker (02:38):
I think any of it.
I think that what happens, whatthose repetitive conversations
are, is there this warning,signer, indicator that there's
something that's breaking downin our conversation, and so I
think it shows up when we wantto lead change.
So an executive is making a moveand they see a gap.
(03:00):
So we're here today, we need toget here tomorrow and we're
going to move in this direction.
It's a transformation or it's areorg or it's a restructure, and
they're noticing pushback orpeople keep bringing it up and
actually the executive or theteam that's putting the move
forward gets frustrated becausethey feel like things aren't
(03:22):
moving forward.
So they say it louder or theysay it in different ways, or we
develop these mechanisms andtools and processes because
clearly people aren't doing it,because maybe they don't
understand or maybe they don'tknow how to do it or maybe they
need training.
So we go about, I think, tryingto solve or fix what we
(03:44):
identify as a problem, likewe're at one place and we want
to get somewhere else, we wantto see change happen.
We try to solve it withprocesses and tools and
techniques and training andcommunication plans and slide
decks and we speak louder or wesay it more often I think all of
that is the way it plays outand what I believe is actually,
(04:08):
there's an opportunity and aninvitation for something maybe
harder but actually much moresimple as a way to navigate that
.
Dr. Pelè (04:19):
You know, what it sounds to me like you're saying
is that all is not lost, becausethe picture you have just
painted is very bleak and scary.
For a lot of people it's likeis there actually a solution?
But you're saying that there isa solution and it starts from
inside of us.
(04:39):
Tell me more about that angle.
Marsha Acker (04:41):
Yeah, well, I think so, all of the things that
I think we're wanting in anorganization.
So, whether we would say theorganization, things are moving
well, or whether we're sayingwe're giving somebody feedback
or we're just simply askingabout the status of the task
last week, and we find ourselvesrepeatedly asking about it
because it's not moving forwardor even a transformation.
What I believe and have come tolearn through lots of
(05:04):
experiences, that All of thatoften comes down to the space,
in the interface, in thein-between when we come together
in conversation, and that thereare aspects of the way we're
communicating with one anotherthat just break down so we
communicate differently, andwhen we encounter difference, we
(05:28):
tend to not like difference.
We like people who communicatein the same way that we do or
communicate from the sameperspective we do, and so, yes,
you know, we help leaders andteams See what's happening in
their conversation.
We call it reading the room,like how to read the room and
notice when we're getting stuckin those Conversations and then
(05:50):
how to change the nature of theoutcome of the conversation.
So, yes, I think it does startwith us and I think it comes,
you know, if you strip all of itdown, if you just think about
the last time you had one ofthose frustrating conversations,
we're like wait a minute, likehaven't we haven't we talked
about this before?
I think if you strip all of itdown, even the context of it,
(06:12):
really it will come down towhat's happening in the
communication, in the words thatare exchanged between you and I
, and where there's a little bitof breakdown and actually I can
be finished.
Dr. Pelè (06:24):
Oh, I love that and actually, you know, one of the
best examples I got aboutsomething like what you're
sharing is the differencebetween saying something is a
problem versus something is anopportunity or or a challenge
that you know it's like justthese words, it's.
It's all down to commonConversations and communication.
So thank you so much forsharing that.
(06:46):
But I'm curious, marsha, whatgot you to become Marsha Acker?
What's your story?
How did you decide that this isthe problem, challenge,
opportunity that you are goingto address in this world?
Marsha Acker (07:00):
um, I experienced working in Organizations.
There's two things actually Iexperienced in my own leadership
, a gap of it, and how to workwith other humans.
And then I also experiencedworking with leaders that
actually, for me, didn't model agreat view of leadership, and
(07:21):
so those two things, I think,have called me to do the work
that I do.
So I'm actually a softwareengineer by training and and a
little bit of my first career.
So you know, I have two degreesin software engineering.
Um, and I often say, you know, I, I came into the workforce
really focused on processimprovement, like, how do we
improve?
By creating processes andautomating things and taking,
(07:45):
you know, making change happen.
But in my view at that time itwas really through Automation
and, you know, making thingseasier.
And it was probably about 10years into that first part of my
career when I started todiscover that I was out over my
skis in terms of leading, like,like I had lots of training and
(08:09):
processes and tools and you knowso mapping things and creating
systems diagrams.
But I started to reach thepoint where I realized that I
also had to work with otherhumans and I I quit, frankly
didn't have skills for it.
And I found myself, you know,quite Quite in difficult
(08:30):
situations that I didn'tunderstand how to handle, and
that that piece of it is reallywhat sent me down the path of
the coaching.
I went to coach trainingbecause I wanted to grow better
leadership skills and what Iended up getting out of that was
a whole different lens and aview for how to look at personal
(08:53):
relationships, the importanceof relationship, the importance
of building relationship, and Ithink I used to.
I would have said relationshipsare for outside of work.
And now I say, oh,relationships are.
They're just how we operate andyou're either paying attention
to them or you're not.
But, yeah, yeah.
So I think that experience wasone part of what led me to do
(09:17):
what I'm doing now.
I think the second part isearly on in my career, I got
feedback.
I was in the position of adirector of operations for a
software technology firm at thetime and we were in the startup
boom phase.
You know, life was good untilit wasn't, and we, you know we
were also on the decline of thetech boom in the late 90s and
(09:43):
one of the things that wasreally challenging me at that
moment was what did it look liketo lead?
And so the CEO had come into myoffice one afternoon and just
said you know, I reallyappreciate what you're doing.
I know you're fairly new inthis role, but I really am not
sure that you're cut out forleadership and I really think
(10:07):
that your lacking gravitas inyour leadership.
Dr. Pelè (10:12):
So after that feedback , I don't even know what that
means.
Marsha Acker (10:19):
First off, let's look up the word gravitas.
And then, God like?
What does that?
What are you trying to tell me?
What does that mean?
And what I'd say to you nowthat I couldn't say to you then
is that that particularindividual just had a different
model for leadership and in hisviewpoint, leadership looked
(10:43):
like a certain way and thefeedback was about, you know,
the gap that he saw between whatI was doing versus what he was
doing.
I will say just credit.
About three months later, asimilar time of day, he came and
sat back in my office one dayand just said you know, I want
to say to you I know I gave yousome feedback a couple months
ago and it was really wrong.
(11:05):
I see how what you're doing,you're effective and it's really
helpful, it's just reallydifferent.
And so I think that I sharethat story a lot, because I
think that we encounterdifference all the time, and
it'll be difference in ourcommunication, like we could
name it, in terms of how we'recommunicating but also what
(11:26):
we're doing.
And I think we encountereddifference.
And as soon as we encountersomething that's different, we
push back on it, or we givesomeone feedback about it, or we
don't like it or we're.
You know, we're telling peoplethat they need to be more like
us.
I don't think that we reallymaybe consciously do that, but I
think it's quite subconsciousand I'm all about people
(11:50):
defining what their model ofleadership and change looks like
and then being really clearabout growing tolerance for
difference when you seediffering viewpoints, and to be
able to say to someone I'mnoticing, you have a really
different way of doing this, youdo it this way, I do it this
way, and then we can have adialogue about what that is like
(12:11):
, what's the intermingling ofthat, but we take it away from
it being so much about feedbackto someone else, that of
something that they have to dodifferently.
I think, if we talk about it inthe concept of, it's my model
for leadership and here's whereit comes from, what it looks
like.
So those, those two eventsreally have led me to.
(12:32):
I have a tremendous passion forworking with leaders.
I often say we work withtechnical leaders who, If you,
you know if you would describeyourself as someone who has a
lot of expertise in your skillset and your swim lane, but find
yourself kind of out of yourskis and working with other
humans.
That's what we have to belearning to do.
Dr. Pelè (12:53):
Yeah, you know, I have to say that a lot of what
you're sharing actually touchedme personally, because this idea
of relationships I think it'ssuch a tragedy that no one gets
taught relationships in school.
We get taught.
We get taught abouttechnologies, you know histories
(13:16):
and all kinds of things, and webecome experts and we go earn
PhDs, like I did and then wewake up one day with our big
PhDs and all of our expertiseand then we realize that nobody
wants to talk to us.
Why is that?
Why can't I get along with thatguy?
He's in the C-suite and I'mover here and and he won't talk.
(13:41):
On and on and on, and yourealize that the real mechanism
of success, of leadership, ofanything, was actually
relationships all along.
So I can't tell you how itconnects to me, and I'm sure
that most people learning arelistening to this and I would
love to learn from you.
How exactly do you help leadersor employees and organizations
(14:04):
focus in on this idea that youknow the skill of relationships
starts with you, starts withconversation, and how do you get
them from A to B?
How do you get them to actuallyget better at this big God,
relationships.
Marsha Acker (14:19):
Well, because we work with a lot of tech leaders
and I would say I think the ideaof relationships at least it
was for me was honestly quitenebulous.
So, okay, and I love whatyou're saying, right, so you're,
it's ringing bells for you.
You know, I see it and Ithought you know this was true
(14:39):
for me at one point too.
Okay, I get it, I need to buildrelationships, but I don't.
I don't really know, like whatthat means, but I'm a what does
it look like?
Person.
So, yeah, that's partly mycommunication domain of power.
Like I need to know themechanics or the you know what
it's gonna look like, and so Ifind that it's.
(15:01):
It can be nebulous, yes, andthere are aspects of it, but one
of the one of the mosteffective ways that I have
uncovered in all the models thatI've worked with has been
helping leaders focus in firston that face-to-face
communication.
So when we come together and westart to communicate with one
(15:24):
another, there are sort of atechnology that we share with
leaders to help them code aconversation.
So it's really different.
You know, there's personalityassessments and there's so many
different assessments that wecan take that give us colors or
they give us letters.
But in this particular modalitywhat we're actually doing is
(15:45):
looking at the facts of what'shappening in a conversation.
So just just by way of a reallysmall example, there's there's
a lot to it, to the coding, butif we start with just simply
actions in a conversation allconversations actually can be.
So everything that we say canbe coded into one of four
actions.
(16:05):
It's either a move, a follow, anoppose or a bystand.
So a move is setting newdirection.
So you might say you know,marsha, let's, let's go grab
lunch after we finish thepodcast.
We'd have to do it virtuallybecause we're fairly distant,
but that would be a move.
And so I could follow you andsay that sounds great.
(16:29):
Or I could oppose you and sayyou know, play that today
doesn't work for me.
Or I might bystand and say youknow, I'm noticing there's quite
a big distance between us.
You know what's?
Tell me more about what gettinglunch would look like.
So bystand is morally neutral.
It's, it's a comment or aninquiry.
(16:49):
So one of the ways that kind offactually that starts to happen
in conversations, that beginsto break down the conversation,
is this idea of pushing back oropposing people.
So I often tell a story aboutmy daughter she's.
She's 15 now, but when she wasmuch younger, she and I had this
kind of Groundhog Dayconversation where I'd ask her
(17:11):
to put her shoes on.
you know or and put shoes on andshe'd say okay, but five
minutes later the shoes stillweren't on.
Dr. Pelè (17:21):
Yeah, so was that a bystand?
Marsha Acker (17:23):
Yeah Well, you know it was a move from me.
So I said, lauren, please putyour shoes on.
And she voiced to follow.
Dr. Pelè (17:30):
She said she voiced to follow, but she didn't mean to
follow.
Marsha Acker (17:33):
Exactly what she meant was an oppose.
But for some reason, you know,she's got some story of her own
that says mustn't tell mommy no,and the only appropriate answer
here is yes or OK.
But so she voiced to follow,but she do an oppose, and so we
(17:54):
call that a covert oppose.
Now I'm going to tell you alittle hint that in corporate
America that pattern we call itcourteous compliance actually
shows up in so manyconversations every day, Wow,
and it creates the breakdown andthe difference between what I
(18:19):
intend versus my action.
And so in that moment we have avoiced action with a really
different intent.
And so now, if I do that to youenough, you're going to start
to feel it.
If you pay attention to it,you're going to go.
You know, marsha, she, she doesthis thing where she says, yes,
(18:42):
I don't feel it like I noticeit doesn't happen, or it just
seems like there's somethingleft unsaid.
You know, we have lots ofphrases for it, so we we call it
the elephant in the room, likewe can point to it.
So a lot of times, intuitionwill tell us that something's
going on.
But one of the ways that weequip leaders is by giving them
(19:03):
a way to look at the facts ofwhat's happening in the
conversation, so that we don'thave to make up stories about it
.
Dr. Pelè (19:09):
Mm, hmm, right.
Marsha Acker (19:10):
So, rather than judge Lauren or tell her, you
know what she's doing or youknow you need to start voicing a
pose.
So I think one of the ways thatwe help leaders is by helping
them number one see what'shappening in their conversations
day to day right now, noticewhere they're getting stuck or
where they're starting tomisunderstand or be confused by
(19:32):
something, and then develop themuscle.
So the bystand would say youknow, it's like it seems like
there's more to thisconversation that's actually not
being talked about and I'mreally wondering what that is.
Can you say a bit about what'shappening for you?
Or can you say a little bitmore about what might be at risk
(19:52):
if we choose this direction?
Or, marsha, I'm noticing.
Another bystand might be I'mnoticing I've asked four times
for this to be done and it's nothappening.
So I'm really curious aboutwhat's going on for you.
But it brings that true, genuinecuriosity and a lot of times,
leadership teams in any team.
(20:15):
Really, somewhere along the waywe've lost the ability to truly
voice a pose, to clearly voicea pose, to push back and say I
disagree or I see thisdifferently, or here's, you know
, I don't want us to moveforward on this because and I
think that very act of making itokay to not just okay but
(20:40):
actually to welcome it as aleader.
So for a leader to say here'sthe direction I think we should
go.
You know I see gap between thispoint and this point and you
know, right now they might bewondering why they get crickets
when they say that or they putthe move out there and they
don't feel the follow behind it.
(21:01):
It's to actually stop and askwhere might I be wrong?
What's at risk when we do this?
Because if we don't voice theoppose, it just goes underground
and offline.
Dr. Pelè (21:20):
First of all, you shared that you began as a
software engineer.
So I'm thinking myself, ooh, isthere an app for that?
Or have you built the app forthat?
Because it's just so.
You know, I love models.
I love being able to look atthe world, look at the
challenges of the world, explainthem and then use that model to
(21:43):
solve them.
I think that's so powerful.
When you have done this work,what are you seeing in terms of
blind spots or maybe pushbackthat leaders need to overcome?
You know, a lot of people thinkthat leadership is easy Another
one of those things that peoplethink they can just wake up and
do right and then they realize,oh, my goodness, this thing is
(22:07):
as hard as the softwareengineering I ever learned.
It's as hard as all that rigor.
What do you find that they needto?
Just overcome the blind spotsin order to really truly do this
stuff right.
Marsha Acker (22:19):
I think there are.
I think there are many blindspots.
Dr. Pelè (22:21):
Yeah, yeah.
Marsha Acker (22:23):
And you've heard me describe one of them.
Actually, you know, I thinkthat there's a belief that many
of us hold, myself included,that to oppose someone is rude
or implied or inconsiderate, orthat somebody might think that I
don't like them.
So I think that's one piece.
(22:43):
I think that there's two othersthat come to mind.
For me that I see happen sooften is that we believe that we
have to have all the answers.
So, when problems emerge, wesort of it's a little bit like
there's some narrative for usthat says to suffer and endure,
(23:06):
there's a prize at the end forthat.
So we get stuck inconversations and we start
trying to solve it on our own.
So we notice that the thingisn't working between you and I,
and then I take it off and I gomuddle in my head about it Gosh
, why is it not moving forward?
(23:26):
What am I doing wrong?
What do I need to?
How can I fix it?
Maybe if I say it louder, maybeif I develop a presentation.
So we go off and we get intothis fix it mode.
So I think one belief is thatwe have to have all the answers.
I think the other blind spotthat we end up working with a
lot of leaders on is when thingsare not going well.
(23:48):
Teams have this reallyfascinating phenomenon where
they make the problem a person.
So if you've ever heard of ateam go, hey, we would be
fantastic if not for this oneindividual here, what we need
(24:08):
you to do is come in and just dosome coaching for that
individual, or we need you tocome help us work this out,
because person A is in the way,and I think sometimes it's.
My hypothesis is that maybeit's just easier to make it a
person's fault, and so we tendto treat problems as performance
(24:31):
issues with an individualrather than a systemic issue
that actually sits in the systemand we are likely contributing
to them.
So I think we tend to look atthings as performance issues
that need to be handled by a PIP, not to say that sometimes
those aren't truly performanceissues where you need to know HR
(24:53):
, but I think we go there toofast.
Dr. Pelè (24:56):
Yeah, no, I hear you.
How about the employee side?
You know we talk a lot aboutleaders and that's really where
we need to start.
As they say, the fish stinksfrom the head down, right.
So if we don't get that right,like how are we going to get
anything else right?
But you know, clearly theperspective of leaders is to
achieve performance andprofitability.
(25:16):
But how about employees whothey have a perspective of just
wanting to enjoy their work andbe engaged in their work and be
happy in their work?
How do we have both profit fora company and happy employees
coexist, based on the way you'veseen things in your work?
Marsha Acker (25:36):
I think that well, in my work I hold that some of
that happiness by employeeshappens when they feel heard and
understood and that some ofthat profitability that
executives are seeking happenswhen the feeling heard and
(25:57):
understood is alive, and so Isee them as quite connected.
I see the challenge inorganizations today is that we
move at such a pace and such arigor that we really don't
create space to have realconversation.
(26:21):
We create conversations I callit collaboration theater, where
we pull people together and wesort of pretend like we want to
hear input, but we limit theconversation to 30 minutes.
We talk over top of one another, we stay at a very surface
level in an agenda and we don'tget, so we don't hear the real
(26:43):
oppose.
And we don't hear the realoppose because we don't have
time or create the space to doit.
So we cut people off, we talkover top of them, and I believe
that the link to that wholenotion that you're pointing to,
which I love, is about thebalance between getting things
done, being profitable, doing itwell, and the fact that you're
(27:06):
I think happiness comes fromwhen people feel heard and
understood and we're alignedwith.
I often say I talk a lot aboutcollaboration, and I don't think
that any of us walk into anorganization feeling like it all
needs to be done our way, butwe do often want to believe that
(27:30):
we've had a voice in it.
And I think leaders don't reallyquite know what that means how
to give people a voice and feellike they make progress at the
same time.
So I think leaders see that.
Maybe that's another blind spot, but I think leaders see it as
a continuum where they have tochoose.
It's either or, and I thinkit's an end.
Dr. Pelè (27:54):
Wow.
All I can say is all is notlost.
There is a solution here.
And what I love about when yousay that employees it's really
all about being they want tofeel heard and understood, and
even on the leadership side theywant to feel heard and
(28:14):
understood, Because if peopleare hearing and understanding
each other and the conversationsare working, then profitability
will happen.
As a result of that, Actionwill be taken.
I love that.
I'm really impressed by thiswhole methodology and I would
love to learn more personally.
Tell us what projects you haveout there that people can go
connect with and learn from.
(28:35):
What are you excited aboutright now and where can we find
you online?
Marsha Acker (28:40):
So there's lots of ways.
I have a book that came outthis year.
It's called Build your Modelfor Leading Change.
You can find it atbuildyourmodelcom.
There's actually an excerptthat you can download.
So it talks about it's a guidedworkbook, so it's definitely
not a read it in a weekend kindof book.
You can think about it as likeit's your map for a leadership
(29:02):
journey.
But it also introduces thetechnology that I'm talking
about and that's actually fromDavid Cantor's theory of
structural dynamics.
So that's A Place.
You can also find me atteamcatapultcom.
I have a podcast calledDefining Moments of Leadership,
where I invite leaders to telltheir stories, their real
stories of moments where they'veexperienced the dip and how
(29:28):
they've come out of it, and then, more importantly, how it's
informed, their model forleadership, so how they go about
building that.
And then we do individual andteamcoaching at teamcatapultcom.
So those are so awesome.
Dr. Pelè (29:43):
I will share all of those links, as well as your
LinkedIn link, and I just wantto say thank you so much, marsha
, for being a part of theProfitable Happiness Podcast.
I appreciate it, yeah.
Marsha Acker (29:55):
Yeah, thank you.
Dr. Pelè (29:58):
Thanks for tuning in to the Profitable Happiness
Podcast.
For more episodes, visitDrPalletcom.
And remember get happy firstand success will follow.
Hello happy people, welcome to the Profitable
Happiness Podcast.
Hello everyone, this is Dr.
Pelè with the ProfitableHappiness Podcast, and today it
is my pleasure to introduce youto Marsha Acker, who is the CEO
and principal at Team Catapult.
(00:20):
She's a leadership and teamcoach and today she's going to
share with us a whole bunch ofthings that actually have to do
with the idea that the problemis not out there.
We can start solving theproblem inside here, right,
marcia?
How are you doing today?
Marsha Acker (00:37):
I'm doing great.
It's wonderful to be here, sothanks for having me.
Dr. Pelè (00:41):
Absolutely so, Marcia.
We were discussing earlierabout the fact that there is an
abundance of challenges andproblems in the business world
and the world too, but let'sfocus on the organizations first
.
What specific problem, whatspecific challenge do you seem
to see over and over inside oforganizations that has made it
(01:04):
necessary for you to do what youdo today?
Marsha Acker (01:08):
Yeah, well, I would key off of the way you
asked that question, because Ithink that one of the challenges
in our day-to-day work inorganizations is that we all
will likely have had theexperience of having the same
conversation over and over again.
So just think about when wasthe?
(01:30):
As I asked that question, likewhat's an example of a time when
you've had the sameconversation over and over again
?
So maybe you were asking forsomething to get done and it
didn't get done, or there's aplace that you notice like it
keeps coming up.
People keep asking you when yougo.
Wait a minute.
I thought we've already decidedthis or we've already talked
(01:51):
about it.
Dr. Pelè (01:52):
Yeah.
Marsha Acker (01:52):
So I think that it's the.
It's just that simplephenomenon that happens.
That's a little bit like thewarning flag or the canary in
the coal mine that we're stuckin our conversation in some way,
so we are stuck in ourconversations.
Dr. Pelè (02:13):
Help me understand exactly what you mean by that,
because I think, when I look atcompanies and I think of that,
I'm thinking of people who areeither getting irritated because
things aren't happening andthey've talked about it a
million times and they're nothappening or they're getting
bored with the routine of work.
(02:33):
Which exact area are we focusedon?
Marsha Acker (02:38):
I think any of it.
I think that what happens, whatthose repetitive conversations
are, is there this warning,signer, indicator that there's
something that's breaking downin our conversation, and so I
think it shows up when we wantto lead change.
So an executive is making a moveand they see a gap.
(03:00):
So we're here today, we need toget here tomorrow and we're
going to move in this direction.
It's a transformation or it's areorg or it's a restructure, and
they're noticing pushback orpeople keep bringing it up and
actually the executive or theteam that's putting the move
forward gets frustrated becausethey feel like things aren't
(03:22):
moving forward.
So they say it louder or theysay it in different ways, or we
develop these mechanisms andtools and processes because
clearly people aren't doing it,because maybe they don't
understand or maybe they don'tknow how to do it or maybe they
need training.
So we go about, I think, tryingto solve or fix what we
(03:44):
identify as a problem, likewe're at one place and we want
to get somewhere else, we wantto see change happen.
We try to solve it withprocesses and tools and
techniques and training andcommunication plans and slide
decks and we speak louder or wesay it more often I think all of
that is the way it plays outand what I believe is actually,
(04:08):
there's an opportunity and aninvitation for something maybe
harder but actually much moresimple as a way to navigate that
.
Dr. Pelè (04:19):
You know, what it sounds to me like you're saying
is that all is not lost, becausethe picture you have just
painted is very bleak and scary.
For a lot of people it's likeis there actually a solution?
But you're saying that there isa solution and it starts from
inside of us.
(04:39):
Tell me more about that angle.
Marsha Acker (04:41):
Yeah, well, I think so, all of the things that
I think we're wanting in anorganization.
So, whether we would say theorganization, things are moving
well, or whether we're sayingwe're giving somebody feedback
or we're just simply askingabout the status of the task
last week, and we find ourselvesrepeatedly asking about it
because it's not moving forwardor even a transformation.
What I believe and have come tolearn through lots of
(05:04):
experiences, that All of thatoften comes down to the space,
in the interface, in thein-between when we come together
in conversation, and that thereare aspects of the way we're
communicating with one anotherthat just break down so we
communicate differently, andwhen we encounter difference, we
(05:28):
tend to not like difference.
We like people who communicatein the same way that we do or
communicate from the sameperspective we do, and so, yes,
you know, we help leaders andteams See what's happening in
their conversation.
We call it reading the room,like how to read the room and
notice when we're getting stuckin those Conversations and then
(05:50):
how to change the nature of theoutcome of the conversation.
So, yes, I think it does startwith us and I think it comes,
you know, if you strip all of itdown, if you just think about
the last time you had one ofthose frustrating conversations,
we're like wait a minute, likehaven't we haven't we talked
about this before?
I think if you strip all of itdown, even the context of it,
(06:12):
really it will come down towhat's happening in the
communication, in the words thatare exchanged between you and I
, and where there's a little bitof breakdown and actually I can
be finished.
Dr. Pelè (06:24):
Oh, I love that and actually, you know, one of the
best examples I got aboutsomething like what you're
sharing is the differencebetween saying something is a
problem versus something is anopportunity or or a challenge
that you know it's like justthese words, it's.
It's all down to commonConversations and communication.
So thank you so much forsharing that.
(06:46):
But I'm curious, marsha, whatgot you to become Marsha Acker?
What's your story?
How did you decide that this isthe problem, challenge,
opportunity that you are goingto address in this world?
Marsha Acker (07:00):
um, I experienced working in Organizations.
There's two things actually Iexperienced in my own leadership
, a gap of it, and how to workwith other humans.
And then I also experiencedworking with leaders that
actually, for me, didn't model agreat view of leadership, and
(07:21):
so those two things, I think,have called me to do the work
that I do.
So I'm actually a softwareengineer by training and and a
little bit of my first career.
So you know, I have two degreesin software engineering.
Um, and I often say, you know, I, I came into the workforce
really focused on processimprovement, like, how do we
improve?
By creating processes andautomating things and taking,
(07:45):
you know, making change happen.
But in my view at that time itwas really through Automation
and, you know, making thingseasier.
And it was probably about 10years into that first part of my
career when I started todiscover that I was out over my
skis in terms of leading, like,like I had lots of training and
(08:09):
processes and tools and you knowso mapping things and creating
systems diagrams.
But I started to reach thepoint where I realized that I
also had to work with otherhumans and I I quit, frankly
didn't have skills for it.
And I found myself, you know,quite Quite in difficult
(08:30):
situations that I didn'tunderstand how to handle, and
that that piece of it is reallywhat sent me down the path of
the coaching.
I went to coach trainingbecause I wanted to grow better
leadership skills and what Iended up getting out of that was
a whole different lens and aview for how to look at personal
(08:53):
relationships, the importanceof relationship, the importance
of building relationship, and Ithink I used to.
I would have said relationshipsare for outside of work.
And now I say, oh,relationships are.
They're just how we operate andyou're either paying attention
to them or you're not.
But, yeah, yeah.
So I think that experience wasone part of what led me to do
(09:17):
what I'm doing now.
I think the second part isearly on in my career, I got
feedback.
I was in the position of adirector of operations for a
software technology firm at thetime and we were in the startup
boom phase.
You know, life was good untilit wasn't, and we, you know we
were also on the decline of thetech boom in the late 90s and
(09:43):
one of the things that wasreally challenging me at that
moment was what did it look liketo lead?
And so the CEO had come into myoffice one afternoon and just
said you know, I reallyappreciate what you're doing.
I know you're fairly new inthis role, but I really am not
sure that you're cut out forleadership and I really think
(10:07):
that your lacking gravitas inyour leadership.
Dr. Pelè (10:12):
So after that feedback , I don't even know what that
means.
Marsha Acker (10:19):
First off, let's look up the word gravitas.
And then, God like?
What does that?
What are you trying to tell me?
What does that mean?
And what I'd say to you nowthat I couldn't say to you then
is that that particularindividual just had a different
model for leadership and in hisviewpoint, leadership looked
(10:43):
like a certain way and thefeedback was about, you know,
the gap that he saw between whatI was doing versus what he was
doing.
I will say just credit.
About three months later, asimilar time of day, he came and
sat back in my office one dayand just said you know, I want
to say to you I know I gave yousome feedback a couple months
ago and it was really wrong.
(11:05):
I see how what you're doing,you're effective and it's really
helpful, it's just reallydifferent.
And so I think that I sharethat story a lot, because I
think that we encounterdifference all the time, and
it'll be difference in ourcommunication, like we could
name it, in terms of how we'recommunicating but also what
(11:26):
we're doing.
And I think we encountereddifference.
And as soon as we encountersomething that's different, we
push back on it, or we givesomeone feedback about it, or we
don't like it or we're.
You know, we're telling peoplethat they need to be more like
us.
I don't think that we reallymaybe consciously do that, but I
think it's quite subconsciousand I'm all about people
(11:50):
defining what their model ofleadership and change looks like
and then being really clearabout growing tolerance for
difference when you seediffering viewpoints, and to be
able to say to someone I'mnoticing, you have a really
different way of doing this, youdo it this way, I do it this
way, and then we can have adialogue about what that is like
(12:11):
, what's the intermingling ofthat, but we take it away from
it being so much about feedbackto someone else, that of
something that they have to dodifferently.
I think, if we talk about it inthe concept of, it's my model
for leadership and here's whereit comes from, what it looks
like.
So those, those two eventsreally have led me to.
(12:32):
I have a tremendous passion forworking with leaders.
I often say we work withtechnical leaders who, If you,
you know if you would describeyourself as someone who has a
lot of expertise in your skillset and your swim lane, but find
yourself kind of out of yourskis and working with other
humans.
That's what we have to belearning to do.
Dr. Pelè (12:53):
Yeah, you know, I have to say that a lot of what
you're sharing actually touchedme personally, because this idea
of relationships I think it'ssuch a tragedy that no one gets
taught relationships in school.
We get taught.
We get taught abouttechnologies, you know histories
(13:16):
and all kinds of things, and webecome experts and we go earn
PhDs, like I did and then wewake up one day with our big
PhDs and all of our expertiseand then we realize that nobody
wants to talk to us.
Why is that?
Why can't I get along with thatguy?
He's in the C-suite and I'mover here and and he won't talk.
(13:41):
On and on and on, and yourealize that the real mechanism
of success, of leadership, ofanything, was actually
relationships all along.
So I can't tell you how itconnects to me, and I'm sure
that most people learning arelistening to this and I would
love to learn from you.
How exactly do you help leadersor employees and organizations
(14:04):
focus in on this idea that youknow the skill of relationships
starts with you, starts withconversation, and how do you get
them from A to B?
How do you get them to actuallyget better at this big God,
relationships.
Marsha Acker (14:19):
Well, because we work with a lot of tech leaders
and I would say I think the ideaof relationships at least it
was for me was honestly quitenebulous.
So, okay, and I love whatyou're saying, right, so you're,
it's ringing bells for you.
You know, I see it and Ithought you know this was true
(14:39):
for me at one point too.
Okay, I get it, I need to buildrelationships, but I don't.
I don't really know, like whatthat means, but I'm a what does
it look like?
Person.
So, yeah, that's partly mycommunication domain of power.
Like I need to know themechanics or the you know what
it's gonna look like, and so Ifind that it's.
(15:01):
It can be nebulous, yes, andthere are aspects of it, but one
of the one of the mosteffective ways that I have
uncovered in all the models thatI've worked with has been
helping leaders focus in firston that face-to-face
communication.
So when we come together and westart to communicate with one
(15:24):
another, there are sort of atechnology that we share with
leaders to help them code aconversation.
So it's really different.
You know, there's personalityassessments and there's so many
different assessments that wecan take that give us colors or
they give us letters.
But in this particular modalitywhat we're actually doing is
(15:45):
looking at the facts of what'shappening in a conversation.
So just just by way of a reallysmall example, there's there's
a lot to it, to the coding, butif we start with just simply
actions in a conversation allconversations actually can be.
So everything that we say canbe coded into one of four
actions.
(16:05):
It's either a move, a follow, anoppose or a bystand.
So a move is setting newdirection.
So you might say you know,marsha, let's, let's go grab
lunch after we finish thepodcast.
We'd have to do it virtuallybecause we're fairly distant,
but that would be a move.
And so I could follow you andsay that sounds great.
(16:29):
Or I could oppose you and sayyou know, play that today
doesn't work for me.
Or I might bystand and say youknow, I'm noticing there's quite
a big distance between us.
You know what's?
Tell me more about what gettinglunch would look like.
So bystand is morally neutral.
It's, it's a comment or aninquiry.
(16:49):
So one of the ways that kind offactually that starts to happen
in conversations, that beginsto break down the conversation,
is this idea of pushing back oropposing people.
So I often tell a story aboutmy daughter she's.
She's 15 now, but when she wasmuch younger, she and I had this
kind of Groundhog Dayconversation where I'd ask her
(17:11):
to put her shoes on.
you know or and put shoes on andshe'd say okay, but five
minutes later the shoes stillweren't on.
Dr. Pelè (17:21):
Yeah, so was that a bystand?
Marsha Acker (17:23):
Yeah Well, you know it was a move from me.
So I said, lauren, please putyour shoes on.
And she voiced to follow.
Dr. Pelè (17:30):
She said she voiced to follow, but she didn't mean to
follow.
Marsha Acker (17:33):
Exactly what she meant was an oppose.
But for some reason, you know,she's got some story of her own
that says mustn't tell mommy no,and the only appropriate answer
here is yes or OK.
But so she voiced to follow,but she do an oppose, and so we
(17:54):
call that a covert oppose.
Now I'm going to tell you alittle hint that in corporate
America that pattern we call itcourteous compliance actually
shows up in so manyconversations every day, Wow,
and it creates the breakdown andthe difference between what I
(18:19):
intend versus my action.
And so in that moment we have avoiced action with a really
different intent.
And so now, if I do that to youenough, you're going to start
to feel it.
If you pay attention to it,you're going to go.
You know, marsha, she, she doesthis thing where she says, yes,
(18:42):
I don't feel it like I noticeit doesn't happen, or it just
seems like there's somethingleft unsaid.
You know, we have lots ofphrases for it, so we we call it
the elephant in the room, likewe can point to it.
So a lot of times, intuitionwill tell us that something's
going on.
But one of the ways that weequip leaders is by giving them
(19:03):
a way to look at the facts ofwhat's happening in the
conversation, so that we don'thave to make up stories about it
.
Dr. Pelè (19:09):
Mm, hmm, right.
Marsha Acker (19:10):
So, rather than judge Lauren or tell her, you
know what she's doing or youknow you need to start voicing a
pose.
So I think one of the ways thatwe help leaders is by helping
them number one see what'shappening in their conversations
day to day right now, noticewhere they're getting stuck or
where they're starting tomisunderstand or be confused by
(19:32):
something, and then develop themuscle.
So the bystand would say youknow, it's like it seems like
there's more to thisconversation that's actually not
being talked about and I'mreally wondering what that is.
Can you say a bit about what'shappening for you?
Or can you say a little bitmore about what might be at risk
(19:52):
if we choose this direction?
Or, marsha, I'm noticing.
Another bystand might be I'mnoticing I've asked four times
for this to be done and it's nothappening.
So I'm really curious aboutwhat's going on for you.
But it brings that true, genuinecuriosity and a lot of times,
leadership teams in any team.
(20:15):
Really, somewhere along the waywe've lost the ability to truly
voice a pose, to clearly voicea pose, to push back and say I
disagree or I see thisdifferently, or here's, you know
, I don't want us to moveforward on this because and I
think that very act of making itokay to not just okay but
(20:40):
actually to welcome it as aleader.
So for a leader to say here'sthe direction I think we should
go.
You know I see gap between thispoint and this point and you
know, right now they might bewondering why they get crickets
when they say that or they putthe move out there and they
don't feel the follow behind it.
(21:01):
It's to actually stop and askwhere might I be wrong?
What's at risk when we do this?
Because if we don't voice theoppose, it just goes underground
and offline.
Dr. Pelè (21:20):
First of all, you shared that you began as a
software engineer.
So I'm thinking myself, ooh, isthere an app for that?
Or have you built the app forthat?
Because it's just so.
You know, I love models.
I love being able to look atthe world, look at the
challenges of the world, explainthem and then use that model to
(21:43):
solve them.
I think that's so powerful.
When you have done this work,what are you seeing in terms of
blind spots or maybe pushbackthat leaders need to overcome?
You know, a lot of people thinkthat leadership is easy Another
one of those things that peoplethink they can just wake up and
do right and then they realize,oh, my goodness, this thing is
(22:07):
as hard as the softwareengineering I ever learned.
It's as hard as all that rigor.
What do you find that they needto?
Just overcome the blind spotsin order to really truly do this
stuff right.
Marsha Acker (22:19):
I think there are.
I think there are many blindspots.
Dr. Pelè (22:21):
Yeah, yeah.
Marsha Acker (22:23):
And you've heard me describe one of them.
Actually, you know, I thinkthat there's a belief that many
of us hold, myself included,that to oppose someone is rude
or implied or inconsiderate, orthat somebody might think that I
don't like them.
So I think that's one piece.
(22:43):
I think that there's two othersthat come to mind.
For me that I see happen sooften is that we believe that we
have to have all the answers.
So, when problems emerge, wesort of it's a little bit like
there's some narrative for usthat says to suffer and endure,
(23:06):
there's a prize at the end forthat.
So we get stuck inconversations and we start
trying to solve it on our own.
So we notice that the thingisn't working between you and I,
and then I take it off and I gomuddle in my head about it Gosh
, why is it not moving forward?
(23:26):
What am I doing wrong?
What do I need to?
How can I fix it?
Maybe if I say it louder, maybeif I develop a presentation.
So we go off and we get intothis fix it mode.
So I think one belief is thatwe have to have all the answers.
I think the other blind spotthat we end up working with a
lot of leaders on is when thingsare not going well.
(23:48):
Teams have this reallyfascinating phenomenon where
they make the problem a person.
So if you've ever heard of ateam go, hey, we would be
fantastic if not for this oneindividual here, what we need
(24:08):
you to do is come in and just dosome coaching for that
individual, or we need you tocome help us work this out,
because person A is in the way,and I think sometimes it's.
My hypothesis is that maybeit's just easier to make it a
person's fault, and so we tendto treat problems as performance
(24:31):
issues with an individualrather than a systemic issue
that actually sits in the systemand we are likely contributing
to them.
So I think we tend to look atthings as performance issues
that need to be handled by a PIP, not to say that sometimes
those aren't truly performanceissues where you need to know HR
(24:53):
, but I think we go there toofast.
Dr. Pelè (24:56):
Yeah, no, I hear you.
How about the employee side?
You know we talk a lot aboutleaders and that's really where
we need to start.
As they say, the fish stinksfrom the head down, right.
So if we don't get that right,like how are we going to get
anything else right?
But you know, clearly theperspective of leaders is to
achieve performance andprofitability.
(25:16):
But how about employees whothey have a perspective of just
wanting to enjoy their work andbe engaged in their work and be
happy in their work?
How do we have both profit fora company and happy employees
coexist, based on the way you'veseen things in your work?
Marsha Acker (25:36):
I think that well, in my work I hold that some of
that happiness by employeeshappens when they feel heard and
understood and that some ofthat profitability that
executives are seeking happenswhen the feeling heard and
(25:57):
understood is alive, and so Isee them as quite connected.
I see the challenge inorganizations today is that we
move at such a pace and such arigor that we really don't
create space to have realconversation.
(26:21):
We create conversations I callit collaboration theater, where
we pull people together and wesort of pretend like we want to
hear input, but we limit theconversation to 30 minutes.
We talk over top of one another, we stay at a very surface
level in an agenda and we don'tget, so we don't hear the real
(26:43):
oppose.
And we don't hear the realoppose because we don't have
time or create the space to doit.
So we cut people off, we talkover top of them, and I believe
that the link to that wholenotion that you're pointing to,
which I love, is about thebalance between getting things
done, being profitable, doing itwell, and the fact that you're
(27:06):
I think happiness comes fromwhen people feel heard and
understood and we're alignedwith.
I often say I talk a lot aboutcollaboration, and I don't think
that any of us walk into anorganization feeling like it all
needs to be done our way, butwe do often want to believe that
(27:30):
we've had a voice in it.
And I think leaders don't reallyquite know what that means how
to give people a voice and feellike they make progress at the
same time.
So I think leaders see that.
Maybe that's another blind spot, but I think leaders see it as
a continuum where they have tochoose.
It's either or, and I thinkit's an end.
Dr. Pelè (27:54):
Wow.
All I can say is all is notlost.
There is a solution here.
And what I love about when yousay that employees it's really
all about being they want tofeel heard and understood, and
even on the leadership side theywant to feel heard and
(28:14):
understood, Because if peopleare hearing and understanding
each other and the conversationsare working, then profitability
will happen.
As a result of that, Actionwill be taken.
I love that.
I'm really impressed by thiswhole methodology and I would
love to learn more personally.
Tell us what projects you haveout there that people can go
connect with and learn from.
(28:35):
What are you excited aboutright now and where can we find
you online?
Marsha Acker (28:40):
So there's lots of ways.
I have a book that came outthis year.
It's called Build your Modelfor Leading Change.
You can find it atbuildyourmodelcom.
There's actually an excerptthat you can download.
So it talks about it's a guidedworkbook, so it's definitely
not a read it in a weekend kindof book.
You can think about it as likeit's your map for a leadership
(29:02):
journey.
But it also introduces thetechnology that I'm talking
about and that's actually fromDavid Cantor's theory of
structural dynamics.
So that's A Place.
You can also find me atteamcatapultcom.
I have a podcast calledDefining Moments of Leadership,
where I invite leaders to telltheir stories, their real
stories of moments where they'veexperienced the dip and how
(29:28):
they've come out of it, and then, more importantly, how it's
informed, their model forleadership, so how they go about
building that.
And then we do individual andteamcoaching at teamcatapultcom.
So those are so awesome.
Dr. Pelè (29:43):
I will share all of those links, as well as your
LinkedIn link, and I just wantto say thank you so much, marsha
, for being a part of theProfitable Happiness Podcast.
I appreciate it, yeah.
Marsha Acker (29:55):
Yeah, thank you.
Dr. Pelè (29:58):
Thanks for tuning in to the Profitable Happiness
Podcast.
For more episodes, visitDrPalletcom.
And remember get happy firstand success will follow.
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